WEBVTT - Mysteries of the missing 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:03.920 It would be hard to make up a scenario that 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.840 was more haunting, more spooky, more Elfred Hitchcock than this 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:15.320 real life case. It's possible that Desi Freeman hid in 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.120 a cave in Uo or a min in UOV and 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:22.360 that he's just gone to sleep and been poisoned by poison. 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:27.480 Gas Beth Barnard was found and the letter A had 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:31.080 been carved into her Torso I mean Andrew Rule. 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:33.080 This is life and crimes. 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:37.240 As we put this podcast to here. Today things are 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.960 happening into state with one of the bigger cases of 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.760 recent years in South Australia and probably nationwide, and that 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:52.360 is the latest development in the case of the missing child. 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.880 Gas La Motte and little Gus, just four years old, 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:02.320 went missing from Oak Park Station September twenty twenty five 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.399 and Gus, little blonde boy, big wide smile. He was 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.679 living on that station, which is a very remote and 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.199 vast property right out in the sort of dry semi 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:20.080 desert country near the district of Junta. Gus vanished in 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:24.959 late September on a particular day and searches were mounted 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:30.119 and the mystery deepened with every passing day. It has 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.600 come to pass that there have now been eight separate 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:38.319 searches of a very large area, a radius of five 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.720 and a half kilometers, which, when you do the calculation, 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.639 is something like almost one hundred square kilometers of area 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:52.720 searched very diligently on foot and by air and all 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:57.240 the ways that you can search. Not one midgeon of 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:01.720 evidence has been found of the little boy, the missing boy. 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:05.200 No footprints. There was one print found. They thought it 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:07.720 might have been a print, but now they're thinking it wasn't. 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:13.360 No clothing, no sign of a struggle, no blood, no body, 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:19.160 no nothing, complete mystery. They've dragged dams, they've looked in 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:23.240 creek beds, They've done everything they could. They've looked at 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.720 the possibility of dingoes or wild pigs and whatever, or 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.440 of some sort of abduction by an outsider. And it 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:35.160 turns out that after all these options have been looked 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:40.440 at and discounted, that the police have decided with a 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.600 heavy heart that really the most likely answer to the 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.360 mystery of Gaslamont is closer to home. 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:49.560 The police, as. 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:53.280 Of the fifth of February, have declared that it is 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.160 a major crime and a major person of interest is 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:02.320 one of the people in Guss's circle. This is not 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:07.640 his parents, It's not his mother or his father Josh Lamont, 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:13.120 it is someone else. The senior police person who conducted 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:17.800 a very long and thorough media briefing on February the fifth, 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:23.280 pointed out that there were certain anomalies and contradictions which 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:29.000 had cropped up when police had interviewed family members and 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:33.160 done timelines and tried to trace what each member of 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:35.240 the family had done at a certain time, etc. 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:36.000 Etc. 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:41.240 That these anomalies and contradictions had become so obvious that 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.720 the police had questioned the family members about them. It 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.720 shows you that that case is now regarded by the 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:56.480 police as possibly solvable, and that the one area of investigation, 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.520 after exhausting all the others, they were at Haines to 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.280 point out how much searching had gone on. Eight separate 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:10.480 searches over four months have revealed nothing that after all 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:15.560 that they have no other conclusion than to investigate anomalies 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.040 and contradictions inside the family circle. 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:21.000 We will look forward to. 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:27.159 Finding out more about the mysterious disappearance of Gaslamont in 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:31.680 the coming days and weeks. However, there are other cases 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:37.800 in Victoria. We have the ongoing search for Desi Freeman, 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:42.839 the man who allegedly shot dead to police and injured 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:47.200 a third police officer at Poor Punka in the northeast 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:52.480 at the end of last winter. Now, in recent days 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.640 police have had a good look once more at reports 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:00.560 that there was a single gunshot heard at a particular 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:05.159 time on the day of the killings, and it is 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:09.760 understood that they have a specific time, like a particular 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:15.080 time the afternoon when this gunshot was heard, which leads 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.320 some people who were involved in covering the. 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:21.320 Case to deduce the police. 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.440 Have been able to tap into some form of closed 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:28.880 circuit camera or something that recorded an audio shot in 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:32.360 the distance at a particular time of day, and. 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.520 That that recording is possibly. 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:40.719 Given them some technical way of comparing that sound with 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.799 similar shots that they could do as a test run 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:50.600 as a way of trying to pinpoint where this supposed 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:55.560 single shot could have been, to pinpoint approximately where that 0:05:55.600 --> 0:06:01.120 shot occurred, because obviously they're looking at the possible that 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.760 Desi Freeman having done allegedly the terrible crime that he did, 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:09.520 I mean two police were shot dead, that he's run 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.000 into the bush and within two or three hours perhaps 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:17.039 killed himself by shooting himself with one of the firearms 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.560 that he was known to possess. Now that is a 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:25.200 valid theory. And the undergrowth in that area is thick, 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:27.960 there are a lot of mind shafts, there's a lot 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:31.800 of rough country. It's extraordinarily rough. One of our own photographers, 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:36.520 Jason Edwards, who's covered this case in great depth, is 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:38.880 a rock climber in his spare time, and he and 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:40.520 his mates have been up there and he said it's 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:44.719 an incredibly difficult country, even for fit people well prepared 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.880 with ropes and so on and so on, and he 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.560 said would be a very onerous task to search each 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.600 square meter of it thoroughly, as good a job as 0:06:54.600 --> 0:07:00.280 the police obviously done. However, there is another possibility, and 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.680 it's a possibility that no doubt the police have entertained 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:08.680 but not spoken about, at least not publicly, And that 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:09.160 is this. 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:11.240 And this was brought to my. 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:16.120 Attention by the eminent historian and writer, doctor John Watson, 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:19.920 and he points out correctly that in a district which 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.880 has so many mine shafts, which it has, that area 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:27.600 has hundreds, if not thousands of mine shafts, most of 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:31.880 them lost overgrown, They are left over from the gold 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:36.720 rushes of the mid nineteenth century. The countryside is riddled 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:40.760 with them, and there is no doubt that someone who 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:45.200 walked around the district like Dezzy Freeman did or was 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:48.160 known to do, would have known of the existence of 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:51.720 various mine shafts. Now, not all mine shafts drop straight 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:55.400 down into the ground. Some of them go traverse inwards 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:58.800 into a hill site. They are known as drives. They 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:03.360 drive relatively horizontally and then they can go along like that, 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.760 and then they can drop into a shaft downwards. There's 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:11.480 all different permutations of mines. Dom Watson pointed out, as 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:17.640 is relatively well known in mining circles. Mines are dangerous 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:20.880 because gases can be trapped in them. 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.600 It is always the great. 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:28.000 Fear of miners that they will be poisoned by a 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.800 gas that is imperceptible to them until it's too late. 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:35.800 And that is why we have that saying the canary 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:40.200 in the mind shaft. That old time miners would carry 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:44.520 canaries in cages down to deep mines, so that if 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.320 there were dangerous and deadly gases, the canary, a very 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:53.040 vulnerable small creature, would feel it the effects of it 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.240 before the miners did before the humans did, and a 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:02.240 canary would stop whistling or making a noise and would 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:07.520 be unconscious or dead before humans felt the effects of 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:12.360 dangerous gases. Now there is more than one form of 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:17.040 potentially deadly gas found in minds. The main one, but 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:21.920 not the only one, is carbon monoxide. And carbon monoxide. 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.840 Is odorless, it's tasteless, it's invisible. 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.760 And if you are in a space, a room, or 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:31.480 a cave or anything else where, there is carbon monoxide. 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.120 And this can happen at home, in your own garage. 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.400 If you start a car in a closed garage that's 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:42.320 relatively air tight, you can just go to sleep and die. 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:47.320 It's very deadly because it just quietly knocks you out 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:53.080 and then you die. And it is on the cards. 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:58.120 It's possible that if Desi Freeman sought shelter in a 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.120 mind shaft, he might have known one or two or 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.360 three that he had his eye on. And even if 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.240 he'd visited such a mind shaft in the past for 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.199 twenty minutes, half an hour, an hour, even if he'd 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:14.040 done that and perhaps even puts some supplies there, you know, 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:18.160 some baked beans and a blanket or whatever that sort 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:22.360 of stuff that he may not realize the potential for 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:26.559 dangerous gases. These gases can be produced by rotting vegetation. 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.120 They can be produced by rotting timber that the old 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:34.080 timbers that the miners put in the mind shafts. When 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:39.120 they've rot they give off gases which if trapped, if 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.280 they dissipate into the air, no problem. But if they're 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:46.959 trapped in a pocket, you can breathe them in and die. 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:51.959 John Watson's hypothesis, which he put together in an excellent 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:56.640 essay on this whole case, is that it's possible that 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:00.880 Desi Freeman hid in a cave in or are Mine 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:05.199 knew of, and that he's just gone to sleep and 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:09.319 been poisoned by poison gas, by carbon monoxide or one 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.760 of the other forms of gas, such as I think 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.559 sulfide is one, and there are others, most of them 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.320 produced by nature, but some of course could come from 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:25.520 the chemicals or substances used in the early days by 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:28.640 the old time miners. They might have left tins of 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.720 stuff down there, and as it's rusted and rotted away, 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:40.120 these dangerous gases could form and then be suspended at 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:45.920 a certain level underground, So that the unsuspecting visitor hits 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.319 them and he's poisoned by them. It's no more far 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:51.120 fetched than any other scenario. 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.360 It's probably less far fetched. 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:57.200 Than the idea that Desi Freeman hit shiked his way 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.920 out of the area, or that somebody knew he was 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.560 on the run immediately and put him in their boot 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:08.560 and drove him away. I think at this point of time, 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.360 after all these months, after this amount of time, and 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.680 we're looking at least five months. 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.200 That the police will probably have ruled out. 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:22.120 Any chance that Desi Freeman was helped by other people 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:26.200 and he's being harbored by other people. Because the one 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.439 thing that modern police forces are very good at a 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:36.320 superb at, is using electronic surveillance techniques telephones, cameras, etc. 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:41.040 In order to pick up any clues that might give 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:45.559 away what people are up to. And I think it's 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.520 fair to say that if any one of dozens of 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:54.000 people in any way associated with Desi Freeman or his sympathizers, 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.240 if any one of them had said or done anything 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:01.319 in the last five months that they knew. 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.920 That Desi was alive, the police. 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:05.880 Would know about it and they would have acted on it. 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:13.439 That has clearly not happened. The theory that Desi is dead, 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:19.880 either by his own hand or by misadventure, he's gathering 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:25.680 strength with every passing week. Now, while we're still in Victoria, 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.800 let's have a look at the case of the Lonely 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.800 Bones at Phillip Island. Now back in January, January the 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.880 fifteenth a plumber working on the sulage line as they 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:42.200 call it, for a septic tank behind a house in an. 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:44.720 Estate called Silver Leaves Estate. 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:49.520 On Phillip Island. This plumber stumbled over some bones. Down 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.240 he's digging a hole and he found some bones. Now, initially, 0:13:54.200 --> 0:14:00.640 the thought immediately was could this be evidence from a 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:05.040 modern cold case? And what everybody wanted on that first 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:10.240 day was could it be the remains of the missing 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:17.880 woman Vivian Cameron. Now, Vivian Cameron is the person at 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.960 the center really of what he's known as the Philip 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.000 Island Murder. The Philip Island murder happened forty years ago, 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:29.239 and that was a notorious case where it was discovered 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:36.720 that Vivian Cameron's husband, local landholder, farmer and sort of 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.080 quite an important person on Philip Island, a low called 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:41.320 Fergus Cameron. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.720 It was discovered well, she discovered that he had. 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.800 Been having an affair with a young woman who worked 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:51.480 on the property. That young woman was called Beth Barnard. 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.280 She was twenty three, She was the daughter of a 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:59.720 Melbourne lawyer, and she decided that she'd worked down at 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.000 Phili Violin on this property for a while, et cetera, 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:07.960 and she'd formed this illicit casual relationship with the older man. 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:13.320 Fergus Cameron. Missus Cameron, mother of two or three kids, 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.800 found out about it and was greatly distressed, as she 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:23.120 might be. And the result was forty years ago that 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:28.200 Beth Barnard was found stabbed. She's found killed and the 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:32.480 letter A had been carved into her torso and that 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:37.240 some people concluded, and it's understandable that they would conclude this, 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.120 that it was a symbol. It was a for adulteress. 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.400 And this was something that had cropped up in a 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:50.240 fairly famous novel. It had a literary allusion to it, 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:55.640 this a for adulteress. And what added to the mystery 0:15:55.800 --> 0:16:00.760 was that Vivian Cameron, the wronged wife, disappear at the 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:05.000 same time that Beth Barnard was murdered on the same 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:10.080 night Vivian Cameron disappeared and the vehicle she drove I 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.520 think it was a fool drive or something. It was 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:16.080 found on or near the big bridge that leads from 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:20.080 Philip Island over to San Remo. And the assumption was, 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:24.760 and it's a very fair assumption, that she had done 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.760 the murder in a fit of rage and then done 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:32.880 away with herself by throwing herself off the bridge into 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.880 the fast flowing channel when the tides are turning there 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.560 the water runs fast, and it is an area because 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.680 of seals and other things, that does have its share 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:49.000 of sharks, white point of sharks. And if you throw 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.000 yourself in the water there and you aren't a good swimmer, 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.080 or you actually want to die, there's every chance that 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.200 you'd be swept out to see and then you would 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.720 perhaps never be found because you be eaten by sea creatures. 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:07.719 So that was a scenario that presented itself for years. 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.920 The Philip Island Murder threw up at least one factual 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:16.200 book written by Vicky Petratus and Paul Day, I think 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.920 the first version of it, and it threw up a novel, 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.320 a novel written by Chloe Hooper, which is I think 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:28.359 called the Children's Book of True Crime, and it is 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:34.560 an interesting, rather experimental novel which brought Chloe Hooper attention 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.919 as one of our emerging writers a couple of decades ago, 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.040 and she's now one of our better known writers. And 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:46.000 in fact, I understand that she's finishing a new novel, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.960 albeit not one about Philip Island this time. So the 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.960 point I'm making about writers and the Philip Island case 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:58.000 is that it's a case that captures the imagination. It 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.800 would be hard to make up scenario that was more haunting, 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:07.960 more spooky, more Alfred Hitchcock than this real life case. 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.159 So the bones, the bones that were found on January 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:12.639 the fifteenth, Huban. 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:12.920 What are they? 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:17.240 Well, my sources on Phillip Island, and my source there 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.560 is a good source, because he's a person who knows 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.880 a lot of people, including probably the local law enforcement people, 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:29.639 and they would be abreast of the latest developments in 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.320 DNA searches and forensic searches and all the rest of it. 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:37.720 And he tells me that the assumption now is that 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:43.160 the bones found were of a young female, but that 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:47.280 they are not modern bones that are the subject of 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:51.400 an abduction or murder. Or kidnapped case. We don't think 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.040 that these bones are the answer. 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.680 To a cold case such as let's. 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:02.399 Say bung Siriburn disappearing Baronia in the Eastern Suburbs in 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:07.359 twenty and eleven, or a girl called Sharie Westall who 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:12.320 was fifteen years old vanished after a dentist's appointment out 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:16.400 in the far eastern suburbs of Melbourne, and no one's 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.520 ever seen her again, and it's not known if she's 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.639 alive or dead, but you would assume she's probably dead, 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:27.040 but her body was never found or identified. It would 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:31.800 appear that the police have ruled out those possibilities, and 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:37.119 it's looking increasingly likely that the bones are very old, 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:44.040 and they probably belong to a teenage Indigenous person or 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:48.720 First Nations person from a long time ago, and by that, 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.879 you know, possibly even the century before last, or something 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:55.280 of that nature, in which case it'll be an interesting 0:19:56.240 --> 0:20:00.159 piece of archaeology and there'll be a lot of and 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.520 throying about where to take those bones and to reinter 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:08.840 them with the appropriate ceremonies. Let's have a look at 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:14.119 another case now, fifteen years ago. Herald's some photographer David 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.280 Cared and myself went to Dubbo in New South Wales, 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.040 and then we went towards the coast to a bush 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:24.240 township called Gloucester, and to surrounding areas I think in 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.480 what might be called the Upper Hunter some of it. 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:32.440 And we were interested in what was then the pointy 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:38.120 end of the manhunt for Australia's most wanted man. Now 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:44.880 this guy was called Malcolm John Naden, infinite Aden. Malcolm 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:46.119 John Naden. 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:47.800 Was basically a fruit loop. 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:51.800 Really, I think, although he's now serving a very long sentence, 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:56.040 it's probable that he should be in some sort of 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:01.120 mental institution. Malcolm John Naden wasn't in pigenous guy who 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:05.440 came from a Dubbo. He was a strange cat, I think, 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:11.639 all his life. And he went on the run after 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:17.360 coming under suspicion for the violent death of a young 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:22.800 Indigenous woman who was known to him, and also over 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:27.560 the disappearance of his own cousin, a girl called Nolan. 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:34.399 Her surname was Nolan. And also he was under suspicion 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:39.600 for sexual assaults of at least one teenage girl. And 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.440 so this man Naden, who was wanted over a murder, 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:48.720 a suspected murder, and over a sexual assault. He bolted, 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.959 He bolted and he went bush. Now it was a 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:56.399 case that was strange because outside that patch of New 0:21:56.440 --> 0:22:00.280 South Wales, not many people knew about it. His victims 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.960 were people sort of known to him, and the story 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:10.200 didn't get a lot of currency until much later, when 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:14.240 people realized this bloke has been wandering out in the countryside, 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:17.960 living on the fat of the land, essentially, you know, 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:21.920 hunting for his food and basically stealing food and all 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:25.760 this sort of thing, breaking into holiday houses and farmhouses 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:27.320 and so on, and doing the. 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:30.040 Best he could. And he did this for years. 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.760 And it might be that if he hadn't done a 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:38.160 very rash thing, he could still have been living up 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:40.879 in the bush. But what he did, some police went 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.680 in looking for him, and he had stolen a twenty 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:48.560 two rifle from a farmhouse and he took a shot 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:52.880 at a policeman. I think he wounded a policeman and 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.840 that wasn't good because then the New South Wales police 0:22:56.880 --> 0:22:59.679 got very very keen on finding him because once you 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:03.679 shoot a police they take it very personally, and so 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:06.720 they really cranked up the search. They sent in the 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:10.600 tactical response guys and the search and rescue and helicopters 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:15.840 and the dogs and everybody else, and the manhunt for 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:19.919 Malcolm Naden became quite a big deal. And indeed they 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:23.360 grabbed him, they got him, and I'm told on good 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:25.880 authority that they could smell him before they saw him. 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:28.160 He'd been out in the bush for months and months 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:31.240 without any form of hygiene or washing. 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:35.320 And he was very whiffy. Was probably a relief. 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:39.119 For Malcolm Naden to be taken into custody and given 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:42.200 three square meals a day and the chance to have. 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:43.919 A bath or a shower or both. 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:48.320 He got many, many years in jail, I think something. 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:52.080 I think something like close to forty years. And the 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:55.520 smart money says he's never coming out because he is 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:01.640 one bent unit that leads us into who the final 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:06.600 chapter of our Around the Grounds podcast today and that 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:11.159 is the ongoing case ongoing as we talk about it now. 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:15.639 Of Justin Ingram. Now, Justin Ingram. 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:19.280 Is the man who is the subject of a manhunt 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:25.520 right now in February twenty twenty six in the area outside. 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:26.440 Lake car Galligho. 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:30.800 Lake cark Gallagher is right out in central New South Wales, 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:31.840 out in the dry country. 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:34.000 It's the way out northwest of Griffith. 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:38.000 So you're out in small town New South Wales, where 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:43.120 the properties are very big, very vast, the populations very thin, 0:24:43.960 --> 0:24:48.720 and a local boy like Julian Ingram, who's born and 0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:51.520 bred up that way, worked as a gardener on the 0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:55.480 local council, he would be able to use his local 0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:58.760 knowledge to say one step ahead of the law. And 0:24:58.800 --> 0:25:02.679 what happened is on January the twenty second, that is 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:09.120 just recently justin Ingram obtained a firearm. I don't think 0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:11.760 he was a registered shootor but he's out in the 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:16.040 bush and there's plenty of guns about. He went to 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:21.720 a properly known to him and there he shot his 0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:26.480 former fiance, twenty five year old Sophie Quinn, a young 0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:29.440 woman who was pregnant at the time of her shooting. 0:25:30.440 --> 0:25:36.160 He also shot her male friend who's with her, and 0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:39.800 he then went around to another address and shot her aunt. 0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:44.320 He shot this girl, Sophie Quinn's aunt. He went around 0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:47.840 and he shot her aunt, Narrator Quinn, who was known 0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:52.679 to him, and he also wounded a young man, I 0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:56.479 think another relative, a young man who was there at 0:25:56.480 --> 0:25:59.760 that time and who bolted but still was hit by 0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:03.359 shotgun pellets, I think, and he survived. He's out of 0:26:03.400 --> 0:26:07.960 hospital and he's okay. But that's three dead, one wounded. 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:12.520 And then Justin Ingram, the alleged shooter in this case, 0:26:13.280 --> 0:26:17.080 escapes in his council utility. 0:26:17.280 --> 0:26:18.960 It's a white Ford. 0:26:18.760 --> 0:26:22.720 Ranger I think, with the lights on top of the roof, 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:25.439 such as council workers use for roadworks and so on. 0:26:26.280 --> 0:26:29.560 And he's headed out into the wild blue yonder beyond 0:26:29.640 --> 0:26:33.159 Lake car Gallagher, and no one knows where he is. 0:26:33.400 --> 0:26:36.840 The police have mounted big searches, they've got helicopters, they've 0:26:36.880 --> 0:26:40.560 got the lot, they can't find him. He does have 0:26:40.840 --> 0:26:46.200 local knowledge, like Malcolm Nayden, and it could be that 0:26:46.320 --> 0:26:49.800 if he is getting some help, if he's getting the 0:26:49.840 --> 0:26:54.560 sort of help that people allege Desy Freeman got, which 0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:59.880 I don't believe Deesy Freeman did get, Justin Ingram may 0:27:00.119 --> 0:27:03.560 well have been taken out of the area by someone 0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:08.960 related to him or known to him. And he could 0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:13.240 be a long way from Lake Carl Gallagher. He might 0:27:13.280 --> 0:27:15.359 be just out in a patch of bush on a 0:27:15.359 --> 0:27:18.879 big property doing the best he can, living on rabbits, 0:27:19.440 --> 0:27:21.720 or he might be in a state by now no 0:27:21.760 --> 0:27:25.679 one knows, but there's no doubt that this year we 0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:29.200 will find out more about Justin Ingram and that he'll 0:27:29.200 --> 0:27:33.639 probably be found and like Malcolm Naden will end up 0:27:33.720 --> 0:27:38.320