1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: It would be hard to make up a scenario that 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: was more haunting, more spooky, more Elfred Hitchcock than this 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: real life case. It's possible that Desi Freeman hid in 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: a cave in Uo or a min in UOV and 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: that he's just gone to sleep and been poisoned by poison. 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: Gas Beth Barnard was found and the letter A had 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: been carved into her Torso I mean Andrew Rule. 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: This is life and crimes. 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: As we put this podcast to here. Today things are 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: happening into state with one of the bigger cases of 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: recent years in South Australia and probably nationwide, and that 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: is the latest development in the case of the missing child. 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: Gas La Motte and little Gus, just four years old, 14 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: went missing from Oak Park Station September twenty twenty five 15 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: and Gus, little blonde boy, big wide smile. He was 16 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: living on that station, which is a very remote and 17 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,199 Speaker 1: vast property right out in the sort of dry semi 18 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: desert country near the district of Junta. Gus vanished in 19 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: late September on a particular day and searches were mounted 20 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 1: and the mystery deepened with every passing day. It has 21 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: come to pass that there have now been eight separate 22 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: searches of a very large area, a radius of five 23 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: and a half kilometers, which, when you do the calculation, 24 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,639 Speaker 1: is something like almost one hundred square kilometers of area 25 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: searched very diligently on foot and by air and all 26 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: the ways that you can search. Not one midgeon of 27 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: evidence has been found of the little boy, the missing boy. 28 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: No footprints. There was one print found. They thought it 29 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: might have been a print, but now they're thinking it wasn't. 30 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: No clothing, no sign of a struggle, no blood, no body, 31 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: no nothing, complete mystery. They've dragged dams, they've looked in 32 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: creek beds, They've done everything they could. They've looked at 33 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: the possibility of dingoes or wild pigs and whatever, or 34 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: of some sort of abduction by an outsider. And it 35 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: turns out that after all these options have been looked 36 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: at and discounted, that the police have decided with a 37 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: heavy heart that really the most likely answer to the 38 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: mystery of Gaslamont is closer to home. 39 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: The police, as. 40 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: Of the fifth of February, have declared that it is 41 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: a major crime and a major person of interest is 42 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: one of the people in Guss's circle. This is not 43 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: his parents, It's not his mother or his father Josh Lamont, 44 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: it is someone else. The senior police person who conducted 45 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: a very long and thorough media briefing on February the fifth, 46 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: pointed out that there were certain anomalies and contradictions which 47 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: had cropped up when police had interviewed family members and 48 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: done timelines and tried to trace what each member of 49 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: the family had done at a certain time, etc. 50 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: Etc. 51 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: That these anomalies and contradictions had become so obvious that 52 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: the police had questioned the family members about them. It 53 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: shows you that that case is now regarded by the 54 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: police as possibly solvable, and that the one area of investigation, 55 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: after exhausting all the others, they were at Haines to 56 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: point out how much searching had gone on. Eight separate 57 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: searches over four months have revealed nothing that after all 58 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: that they have no other conclusion than to investigate anomalies 59 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: and contradictions inside the family circle. 60 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: We will look forward to. 61 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: Finding out more about the mysterious disappearance of Gaslamont in 62 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: the coming days and weeks. However, there are other cases 63 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: in Victoria. We have the ongoing search for Desi Freeman, 64 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: the man who allegedly shot dead to police and injured 65 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: a third police officer at Poor Punka in the northeast 66 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: at the end of last winter. Now, in recent days 67 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: police have had a good look once more at reports 68 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: that there was a single gunshot heard at a particular 69 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: time on the day of the killings, and it is 70 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: understood that they have a specific time, like a particular 71 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: time the afternoon when this gunshot was heard, which leads 72 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: some people who were involved in covering the. 73 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: Case to deduce the police. 74 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: Have been able to tap into some form of closed 75 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: circuit camera or something that recorded an audio shot in 76 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: the distance at a particular time of day, and. 77 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: That that recording is possibly. 78 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: Given them some technical way of comparing that sound with 79 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,799 Speaker 1: similar shots that they could do as a test run 80 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: as a way of trying to pinpoint where this supposed 81 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: single shot could have been, to pinpoint approximately where that 82 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: shot occurred, because obviously they're looking at the possible that 83 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: Desi Freeman having done allegedly the terrible crime that he did, 84 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: I mean two police were shot dead, that he's run 85 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: into the bush and within two or three hours perhaps 86 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: killed himself by shooting himself with one of the firearms 87 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: that he was known to possess. Now that is a 88 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: valid theory. And the undergrowth in that area is thick, 89 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: there are a lot of mind shafts, there's a lot 90 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: of rough country. It's extraordinarily rough. One of our own photographers, 91 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: Jason Edwards, who's covered this case in great depth, is 92 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: a rock climber in his spare time, and he and 93 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: his mates have been up there and he said it's 94 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: an incredibly difficult country, even for fit people well prepared 95 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: with ropes and so on and so on, and he 96 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: said would be a very onerous task to search each 97 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: square meter of it thoroughly, as good a job as 98 00:06:54,600 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: the police obviously done. However, there is another possibility, and 99 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: it's a possibility that no doubt the police have entertained 100 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: but not spoken about, at least not publicly, And that 101 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: is this. 102 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 2: And this was brought to my. 103 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: Attention by the eminent historian and writer, doctor John Watson, 104 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: and he points out correctly that in a district which 105 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: has so many mine shafts, which it has, that area 106 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: has hundreds, if not thousands of mine shafts, most of 107 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: them lost overgrown, They are left over from the gold 108 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: rushes of the mid nineteenth century. The countryside is riddled 109 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: with them, and there is no doubt that someone who 110 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: walked around the district like Dezzy Freeman did or was 111 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: known to do, would have known of the existence of 112 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: various mine shafts. Now, not all mine shafts drop straight 113 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: down into the ground. Some of them go traverse inwards 114 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: into a hill site. They are known as drives. They 115 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: drive relatively horizontally and then they can go along like that, 116 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: and then they can drop into a shaft downwards. There's 117 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: all different permutations of mines. Dom Watson pointed out, as 118 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: is relatively well known in mining circles. Mines are dangerous 119 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: because gases can be trapped in them. 120 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: It is always the great. 121 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: Fear of miners that they will be poisoned by a 122 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: gas that is imperceptible to them until it's too late. 123 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: And that is why we have that saying the canary 124 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: in the mind shaft. That old time miners would carry 125 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: canaries in cages down to deep mines, so that if 126 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: there were dangerous and deadly gases, the canary, a very 127 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: vulnerable small creature, would feel it the effects of it 128 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: before the miners did before the humans did, and a 129 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: canary would stop whistling or making a noise and would 130 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: be unconscious or dead before humans felt the effects of 131 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: dangerous gases. Now there is more than one form of 132 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: potentially deadly gas found in minds. The main one, but 133 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: not the only one, is carbon monoxide. And carbon monoxide. 134 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 2: Is odorless, it's tasteless, it's invisible. 135 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: And if you are in a space, a room, or 136 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: a cave or anything else where, there is carbon monoxide. 137 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: And this can happen at home, in your own garage. 138 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: If you start a car in a closed garage that's 139 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: relatively air tight, you can just go to sleep and die. 140 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: It's very deadly because it just quietly knocks you out 141 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: and then you die. And it is on the cards. 142 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: It's possible that if Desi Freeman sought shelter in a 143 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: mind shaft, he might have known one or two or 144 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: three that he had his eye on. And even if 145 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: he'd visited such a mind shaft in the past for 146 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: twenty minutes, half an hour, an hour, even if he'd 147 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: done that and perhaps even puts some supplies there, you know, 148 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: some baked beans and a blanket or whatever that sort 149 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: of stuff that he may not realize the potential for 150 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: dangerous gases. These gases can be produced by rotting vegetation. 151 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: They can be produced by rotting timber that the old 152 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: timbers that the miners put in the mind shafts. When 153 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: they've rot they give off gases which if trapped, if 154 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: they dissipate into the air, no problem. But if they're 155 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: trapped in a pocket, you can breathe them in and die. 156 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 1: John Watson's hypothesis, which he put together in an excellent 157 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: essay on this whole case, is that it's possible that 158 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: Desi Freeman hid in a cave in or are Mine 159 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,199 Speaker 1: knew of, and that he's just gone to sleep and 160 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: been poisoned by poison gas, by carbon monoxide or one 161 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: of the other forms of gas, such as I think 162 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: sulfide is one, and there are others, most of them 163 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: produced by nature, but some of course could come from 164 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: the chemicals or substances used in the early days by 165 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: the old time miners. They might have left tins of 166 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: stuff down there, and as it's rusted and rotted away, 167 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: these dangerous gases could form and then be suspended at 168 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: a certain level underground, So that the unsuspecting visitor hits 169 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: them and he's poisoned by them. It's no more far 170 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: fetched than any other scenario. 171 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 2: It's probably less far fetched. 172 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: Than the idea that Desi Freeman hit shiked his way 173 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: out of the area, or that somebody knew he was 174 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: on the run immediately and put him in their boot 175 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: and drove him away. I think at this point of time, 176 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: after all these months, after this amount of time, and 177 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: we're looking at least five months. 178 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 2: That the police will probably have ruled out. 179 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: Any chance that Desi Freeman was helped by other people 180 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: and he's being harbored by other people. Because the one 181 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: thing that modern police forces are very good at a 182 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: superb at, is using electronic surveillance techniques telephones, cameras, etc. 183 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: In order to pick up any clues that might give 184 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: away what people are up to. And I think it's 185 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: fair to say that if any one of dozens of 186 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: people in any way associated with Desi Freeman or his sympathizers, 187 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: if any one of them had said or done anything 188 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: in the last five months that they knew. 189 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: That Desi was alive, the police. 190 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: Would know about it and they would have acted on it. 191 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: That has clearly not happened. The theory that Desi is dead, 192 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: either by his own hand or by misadventure, he's gathering 193 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: strength with every passing week. Now, while we're still in Victoria, 194 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: let's have a look at the case of the Lonely 195 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: Bones at Phillip Island. Now back in January, January the 196 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: fifteenth a plumber working on the sulage line as they 197 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: call it, for a septic tank behind a house in an. 198 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 2: Estate called Silver Leaves Estate. 199 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: On Phillip Island. This plumber stumbled over some bones. Down 200 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: he's digging a hole and he found some bones. Now, initially, 201 00:13:54,200 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: the thought immediately was could this be evidence from a 202 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: modern cold case? And what everybody wanted on that first 203 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: day was could it be the remains of the missing 204 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: woman Vivian Cameron. Now, Vivian Cameron is the person at 205 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: the center really of what he's known as the Philip 206 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: Island Murder. The Philip Island murder happened forty years ago, 207 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,239 Speaker 1: and that was a notorious case where it was discovered 208 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: that Vivian Cameron's husband, local landholder, farmer and sort of 209 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: quite an important person on Philip Island, a low called 210 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: Fergus Cameron. 211 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 2: It was discovered well, she discovered that he had. 212 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: Been having an affair with a young woman who worked 213 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: on the property. That young woman was called Beth Barnard. 214 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: She was twenty three, She was the daughter of a 215 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: Melbourne lawyer, and she decided that she'd worked down at 216 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: Phili Violin on this property for a while, et cetera, 217 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: and she'd formed this illicit casual relationship with the older man. 218 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: Fergus Cameron. Missus Cameron, mother of two or three kids, 219 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: found out about it and was greatly distressed, as she 220 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: might be. And the result was forty years ago that 221 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: Beth Barnard was found stabbed. She's found killed and the 222 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: letter A had been carved into her torso and that 223 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: some people concluded, and it's understandable that they would conclude this, 224 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: that it was a symbol. It was a for adulteress. 225 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: And this was something that had cropped up in a 226 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: fairly famous novel. It had a literary allusion to it, 227 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: this a for adulteress. And what added to the mystery 228 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: was that Vivian Cameron, the wronged wife, disappear at the 229 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: same time that Beth Barnard was murdered on the same 230 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: night Vivian Cameron disappeared and the vehicle she drove I 231 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: think it was a fool drive or something. It was 232 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: found on or near the big bridge that leads from 233 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: Philip Island over to San Remo. And the assumption was, 234 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: and it's a very fair assumption, that she had done 235 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: the murder in a fit of rage and then done 236 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: away with herself by throwing herself off the bridge into 237 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: the fast flowing channel when the tides are turning there 238 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: the water runs fast, and it is an area because 239 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: of seals and other things, that does have its share 240 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: of sharks, white point of sharks. And if you throw 241 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: yourself in the water there and you aren't a good swimmer, 242 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: or you actually want to die, there's every chance that 243 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: you'd be swept out to see and then you would 244 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: perhaps never be found because you be eaten by sea creatures. 245 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:07,719 Speaker 2: So that was a scenario that presented itself for years. 246 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: The Philip Island Murder threw up at least one factual 247 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: book written by Vicky Petratus and Paul Day, I think 248 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: the first version of it, and it threw up a novel, 249 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: a novel written by Chloe Hooper, which is I think 250 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: called the Children's Book of True Crime, and it is 251 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: an interesting, rather experimental novel which brought Chloe Hooper attention 252 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: as one of our emerging writers a couple of decades ago, 253 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: and she's now one of our better known writers. And 254 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: in fact, I understand that she's finishing a new novel, 255 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: albeit not one about Philip Island this time. So the 256 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: point I'm making about writers and the Philip Island case 257 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: is that it's a case that captures the imagination. It 258 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: would be hard to make up scenario that was more haunting, 259 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: more spooky, more Alfred Hitchcock than this real life case. 260 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: So the bones, the bones that were found on January 261 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: the fifteenth, Huban. 262 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 2: What are they? 263 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: Well, my sources on Phillip Island, and my source there 264 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: is a good source, because he's a person who knows 265 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people, including probably the local law enforcement people, 266 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: and they would be abreast of the latest developments in 267 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: DNA searches and forensic searches and all the rest of it. 268 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: And he tells me that the assumption now is that 269 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: the bones found were of a young female, but that 270 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: they are not modern bones that are the subject of 271 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: an abduction or murder. Or kidnapped case. We don't think 272 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: that these bones are the answer. 273 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 2: To a cold case such as let's. 274 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: Say bung Siriburn disappearing Baronia in the Eastern Suburbs in 275 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: twenty and eleven, or a girl called Sharie Westall who 276 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: was fifteen years old vanished after a dentist's appointment out 277 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: in the far eastern suburbs of Melbourne, and no one's 278 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: ever seen her again, and it's not known if she's 279 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: alive or dead, but you would assume she's probably dead, 280 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: but her body was never found or identified. It would 281 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: appear that the police have ruled out those possibilities, and 282 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: it's looking increasingly likely that the bones are very old, 283 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: and they probably belong to a teenage Indigenous person or 284 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: First Nations person from a long time ago, and by that, 285 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: you know, possibly even the century before last, or something 286 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: of that nature, in which case it'll be an interesting 287 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: piece of archaeology and there'll be a lot of and 288 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: throying about where to take those bones and to reinter 289 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: them with the appropriate ceremonies. Let's have a look at 290 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: another case now, fifteen years ago. Herald's some photographer David 291 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: Cared and myself went to Dubbo in New South Wales, 292 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: and then we went towards the coast to a bush 293 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: township called Gloucester, and to surrounding areas I think in 294 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: what might be called the Upper Hunter some of it. 295 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: And we were interested in what was then the pointy 296 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: end of the manhunt for Australia's most wanted man. Now 297 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 1: this guy was called Malcolm John Naden, infinite Aden. Malcolm 298 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: John Naden. 299 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: Was basically a fruit loop. 300 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: Really, I think, although he's now serving a very long sentence, 301 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: it's probable that he should be in some sort of 302 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: mental institution. Malcolm John Naden wasn't in pigenous guy who 303 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: came from a Dubbo. He was a strange cat, I think, 304 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: all his life. And he went on the run after 305 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 1: coming under suspicion for the violent death of a young 306 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: Indigenous woman who was known to him, and also over 307 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: the disappearance of his own cousin, a girl called Nolan. 308 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: Her surname was Nolan. And also he was under suspicion 309 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: for sexual assaults of at least one teenage girl. And 310 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: so this man Naden, who was wanted over a murder, 311 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: a suspected murder, and over a sexual assault. He bolted, 312 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 1: He bolted and he went bush. Now it was a 313 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: case that was strange because outside that patch of New 314 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: South Wales, not many people knew about it. His victims 315 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: were people sort of known to him, and the story 316 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: didn't get a lot of currency until much later, when 317 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: people realized this bloke has been wandering out in the countryside, 318 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: living on the fat of the land, essentially, you know, 319 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: hunting for his food and basically stealing food and all 320 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: this sort of thing, breaking into holiday houses and farmhouses 321 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: and so on, and doing the. 322 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: Best he could. And he did this for years. 323 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: And it might be that if he hadn't done a 324 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: very rash thing, he could still have been living up 325 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: in the bush. But what he did, some police went 326 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: in looking for him, and he had stolen a twenty 327 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: two rifle from a farmhouse and he took a shot 328 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: at a policeman. I think he wounded a policeman and 329 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: that wasn't good because then the New South Wales police 330 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: got very very keen on finding him because once you 331 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 1: shoot a police they take it very personally, and so 332 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: they really cranked up the search. They sent in the 333 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: tactical response guys and the search and rescue and helicopters 334 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: and the dogs and everybody else, and the manhunt for 335 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: Malcolm Naden became quite a big deal. And indeed they 336 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 1: grabbed him, they got him, and I'm told on good 337 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: authority that they could smell him before they saw him. 338 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: He'd been out in the bush for months and months 339 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: without any form of hygiene or washing. 340 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: And he was very whiffy. Was probably a relief. 341 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: For Malcolm Naden to be taken into custody and given 342 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: three square meals a day and the chance to have. 343 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 2: A bath or a shower or both. 344 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: He got many, many years in jail, I think something. 345 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: I think something like close to forty years. And the 346 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: smart money says he's never coming out because he is 347 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: one bent unit that leads us into who the final 348 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: chapter of our Around the Grounds podcast today and that 349 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: is the ongoing case ongoing as we talk about it now. 350 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 2: Of Justin Ingram. Now, Justin Ingram. 351 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: Is the man who is the subject of a manhunt 352 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: right now in February twenty twenty six in the area outside. 353 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 2: Lake car Galligho. 354 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: Lake cark Gallagher is right out in central New South Wales, 355 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: out in the dry country. 356 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: It's the way out northwest of Griffith. 357 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: So you're out in small town New South Wales, where 358 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: the properties are very big, very vast, the populations very thin, 359 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: and a local boy like Julian Ingram, who's born and 360 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: bred up that way, worked as a gardener on the 361 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: local council, he would be able to use his local 362 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: knowledge to say one step ahead of the law. And 363 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: what happened is on January the twenty second, that is 364 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: just recently justin Ingram obtained a firearm. I don't think 365 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: he was a registered shootor but he's out in the 366 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: bush and there's plenty of guns about. He went to 367 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: a properly known to him and there he shot his 368 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: former fiance, twenty five year old Sophie Quinn, a young 369 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: woman who was pregnant at the time of her shooting. 370 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: He also shot her male friend who's with her, and 371 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: he then went around to another address and shot her aunt. 372 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: He shot this girl, Sophie Quinn's aunt. He went around 373 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: and he shot her aunt, Narrator Quinn, who was known 374 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: to him, and he also wounded a young man, I 375 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,479 Speaker 1: think another relative, a young man who was there at 376 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: that time and who bolted but still was hit by 377 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: shotgun pellets, I think, and he survived. He's out of 378 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: hospital and he's okay. But that's three dead, one wounded. 379 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: And then Justin Ingram, the alleged shooter in this case, 380 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: escapes in his council utility. 381 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: It's a white Ford. 382 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: Ranger I think, with the lights on top of the roof, 383 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: such as council workers use for roadworks and so on. 384 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: And he's headed out into the wild blue yonder beyond 385 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: Lake car Gallagher, and no one knows where he is. 386 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: The police have mounted big searches, they've got helicopters, they've 387 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: got the lot, they can't find him. He does have 388 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: local knowledge, like Malcolm Nayden, and it could be that 389 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: if he is getting some help, if he's getting the 390 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: sort of help that people allege Desy Freeman got, which 391 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 1: I don't believe Deesy Freeman did get, Justin Ingram may 392 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: well have been taken out of the area by someone 393 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: related to him or known to him. And he could 394 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: be a long way from Lake Carl Gallagher. He might 395 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: be just out in a patch of bush on a 396 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: big property doing the best he can, living on rabbits, 397 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: or he might be in a state by now no 398 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: one knows, but there's no doubt that this year we 399 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: will find out more about Justin Ingram and that he'll 400 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: probably be found and like Malcolm Naden will end up 401 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: facing the courts for the crimes that he is allegedly committed. 402 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: So there we have it, a round up from state 403 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 1: to state of all the current mysteries. Where's Justin, where's 404 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: the little Gusslermont, the little boy in South Australia? Whose 405 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: are the bones of Phillip Island? And most of all, 406 00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: did Desi Freeman shoot himself? Or did he hide in 407 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: a mind shaft and run into a bit of poison gas? 408 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. 409 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for 410 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: True crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 411 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 1: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au, 412 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: forward slash Andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 413 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: to news. 414 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 2: Podcasts sold at. 415 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: News dot com dot au. That is all one word 416 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: news podcasts sold And if you want further information about 417 00:28:45,480 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: this episode, links are in the description. Eight