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Speaker 1: Approche production.

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Speaker 2: This episode discusses homicide, suicide, and the trauma of a

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Speaker 2: long term missing person. Please take care while listening. On Sunday,

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Speaker 2: August nineteenth, twenty twelve, Lisel Smith did what she always did.

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Speaker 2: She cleaned the stables, She fixed up the paddock for

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Speaker 2: her pregnant horse. She fed her animals in the place

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Speaker 2: that she felt most at peace. She showered, and she dressed,

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Speaker 2: and she told her dad she'd be back again at

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Speaker 2: five to feed the horses. She never came home. In

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Speaker 2: the years since, there've been courtrooms, charges, a suicide the

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Speaker 2: day before, a verdict, and a sealed decision no one

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Speaker 2: was allowed to hear. But at the center of all

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Speaker 2: that is a mum, A mum who still keeps a

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Speaker 2: poster on the back of her car, who still marks

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Speaker 2: her birthday, who still hears a daughter's name in a

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Speaker 2: crowded room. In this episode, sal has a gentle conversation

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Speaker 2: with Sandy Liesel's mother because Lisa matters.

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Speaker 3: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Missing Matter podcast. Today,

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Speaker 3: I'll be talking about a case from twenty twelve. Lisa

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Speaker 3: Smith was a twenty three year old when she disappeared

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Speaker 3: from the Central coast region of New South Wales. A quirky,

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Speaker 3: fun loving girl in the prime of her life. Lisa

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Speaker 3: loved her horses and all animals. That was her happy place.

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Speaker 3: On August nineteenth, twenty twelve, Lisa cleaned the stables, fixed

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Speaker 3: up the paddle for her pregnant horse. She fed her

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Speaker 3: animals before receiving a call from her boyfriend Jim Church.

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Speaker 3: They had planned to meet near Tugara railway station later

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Speaker 3: that day. She showered and dressed herself nicely before telling

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Speaker 3: her dad, I'll be back at five to feed the animals.

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Speaker 3: Lisal has never been seen again. Today, I have the

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Speaker 3: pleasure of speaking with Liesal's mum, Sandy Harvey. Sandy, Welcome

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Speaker 3: to the Missing Matter Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Salia, I appreciate this.

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Speaker 3: Can we start with you telling us a little bit

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Speaker 3: about your Lisel.

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Speaker 1: Sure, I'll tell you something funny. I went into labor

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Speaker 1: on April first, April Fields Day. I refuse to have

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Speaker 1: a baby on April Friel's Day, so I left all

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Speaker 1: my shopping with all of those goods in the supermarket

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Speaker 1: and walked out, went home, put my legs up against

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Speaker 1: the wall. Refused to do anything that would encourage at labor.

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Speaker 1: We finally went to the hospital. They said, oh, we'll

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Speaker 1: just check and see how you're doing. I said, no,

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Speaker 1: you won't, because I'm not having this baby today. And

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Speaker 1: at half past eleven I got up and started pacing

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Speaker 1: the floor and I said, right, let's get this show

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Speaker 1: on the road. And she was born at twenty past

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Speaker 1: five the next morning, on April second, not first, So

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Speaker 1: I was happy about that. She's a quirky little girl.

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Speaker 1: It was almost like she lived on a different planet

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Speaker 1: to what we all live on. And assumed that I

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Speaker 1: always knew where she was and what she was doing,

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Speaker 1: But that wasn't always the case. But she loved her animals,

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Speaker 1: She loved being in the pool. Yeah, much preferred the

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Speaker 1: company of animals. And she did of people, that's for sure.

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Speaker 3: And what are some of your favorite memories? Love lisal

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Speaker 3: Oh so many.

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Speaker 1: One time one of my daughters was staying at school

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Speaker 1: for dance lessons and she was supposed to catch the

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Speaker 1: bus home. Well, I'm waiting and waiting and waiting to

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Speaker 1: watch you walk down the street off the bus. Nothing,

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Speaker 1: So I go up the road. I can't see her anywhere.

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Speaker 1: And of course, you know, fear of an abducted child

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Speaker 1: is always one thing that you think about. So I

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Speaker 1: drove back to the school to see if she was

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Speaker 1: still at school, decided to stay with her sister. I

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Speaker 1: went to the bus. People don't know anything, God, where

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Speaker 1: is she? What's happened?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 1: Panic mode. Drove back home and when I went upstairs,

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Speaker 1: her school bag was at the back door, and I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's a bit odd, so I looked over to see

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Speaker 1: if she was in the playground. There was nobody in

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Speaker 1: the playground, and about two or three minutes later, she

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Speaker 1: came up the backstairs and I said, sweet up, where

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Speaker 1: have you been? And she didn't you see me? Mum?

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Speaker 1: And I said where were you? And some friends up

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Speaker 1: the road had had a little of puppies and she said,

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Speaker 1: I was padding the puppies. Didn't you see me. I

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Speaker 1: just looked at her and I said, I know you

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Speaker 1: think that I'm super mum, But unfortunately I don't have

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Speaker 1: X ray vision. The backyard that she was in had

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Speaker 1: a color on fence, so there's no way in the

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Speaker 1: world that I would have ever seen her. You know, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was there with the puppies. Another time she came

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Speaker 1: racing up where we live. We have like a little

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Speaker 1: easement with a pond. And she came racing up my Mum,

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Speaker 1: I need the pearl scoop. I said, okay, well for

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Speaker 1: oh there's something down there. I want to catch it.

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Speaker 1: And I said okay, so I go he a peol scoop.

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Speaker 1: Next minute she comes running up the road with this

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Speaker 1: eel that's sliming all through. It was just horrible. Mum,

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Speaker 1: look at I found. Look. God, she was so excited, Mum,

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Speaker 1: look at I found. Look at a found. And I said,

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Speaker 1: that's all very nice, darling. But I think you'll put

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Speaker 1: it back. No, no, I want to keep it, going

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Speaker 1: to keep I said, no, no, I think it's missing

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Speaker 1: its friends. You'd better take it back. So she did

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Speaker 1: take it back.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, and how old was she then?

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh eight?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: Another time I went out and it was May, I think,

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Speaker 1: and I said, sweet, you need to get out of

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Speaker 1: the pool. And her lips were blue and the teeth

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Speaker 1: were chattering, and she said, no, no, Mama. I'm okay.

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Speaker 1: I'm like and I'm saying no, no, get out. She

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Speaker 1: used to swim in the pool basically from August till May.

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Speaker 1: She loved the water as well. Another time I heard

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Speaker 1: her talking to her sister down the hallway where their

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Speaker 1: bedrooms were, and she said, I don't want to go

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Speaker 1: to school today, so I'm going to tell mom I'm sick.

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Speaker 1: And my other daughter said to her, Mum won't believe it.

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Speaker 1: She said, yeah, yeah, I'll tell her I'm really really sick.

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Speaker 1: And my other daughter said to her, you're not. Mum's like,

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Speaker 1: you've got to be dead before she won't let you

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Speaker 1: go to school. So I came down the hallway and

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Speaker 1: I said, right, girls, ready for school? And she said, oh,

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Speaker 1: my mom, not feeling well. I said, I'll tell you what, sweetert,

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Speaker 1: you get dress and go to school, and if you're

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Speaker 1: still sick at school, Mummy will come and pick you up.

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Speaker 1: How's that. Well, she came home on the bus that afternoon,

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Speaker 1: so she's gotten to bet too ill. But yeah, they

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Speaker 1: didn't know I was listening. So funny things.

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Speaker 3: Like that, good fun memories to hold on.

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Speaker 1: To, right, Absolutely, absolutely, I mean, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: she got her love of horses from my uncle because

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Speaker 1: I used to go and visit my uncle a lot

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Speaker 1: because I loved horses too, and he had paces, which

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Speaker 1: is like trotting, but it's a bit different, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's where her heart was lost to horses then,

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Speaker 1: and plus she has a cousin who's into horses as well,

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Speaker 1: so it was all that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, oh well, you know, and it's nice to

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Speaker 3: hear stories and background stories to these beautiful humans that

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Speaker 3: we're talking about today and giving them a voice essentially

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Speaker 3: as to who they are and what they've experienced and

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Speaker 3: therefore what you guys have experienced in their lives as well.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, now.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk. I know this is a very

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Speaker 3: sensitive topic and I know how hard this is to

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Speaker 3: pull yourself back in, and I'm really grateful to you

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Speaker 3: jumping on and chatting with me and helping bring some

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Speaker 3: awareness to Lisa's case, but also giving some guidance and

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Speaker 3: some understanding to those that are listening about what we

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Speaker 3: are living within the missing space and you know the

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Speaker 3: ambiguity that brings. Can you share with us what you

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Speaker 3: remember about Sunday, the nineteenth of August twenty twelve.

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Speaker 1: The thing is, I didn't know anything about that until

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Speaker 1: the police informed me. My ex husband unfortunately, didn't let

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Speaker 1: me know that Lisa was missing until three to four

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Speaker 1: weeks after she had actually gone missing. And I think

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Speaker 1: the only reason that I was told by him was

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Speaker 1: that I was parked in the street. He had obviously

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Speaker 1: come out of the police station at Wilm, saw my

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Speaker 1: car and walked up. And I'm sitting in the car thinking,

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Speaker 1: please don't come to me, Please don't, because it's just

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Speaker 1: anxiety kick in. And next minute he shoved his head

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Speaker 1: in the side window and said, are you aware that

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Speaker 1: Lisa's missing? And I went, what what's going on? What happened?

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Speaker 1: And then he walked away. So I've just dumbfounded, and

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Speaker 1: I drove home that the keeptives arrived and told me

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Speaker 1: that she had been missing for several weeks. They basically

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Speaker 1: assumed that he had spoken to me, which hadn't happened.

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Speaker 3: So the police assumed that your husband had informed you

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Speaker 3: that Lisa had gone missing. Yeah, when was she reported

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Speaker 3: to the police?

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Speaker 1: Not till about the thirtieth of August.

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Speaker 3: It's a hard thing to ask because we all know

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Speaker 3: after the fact that the most crucial time when someone

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Speaker 3: goes missing is those first you know, twenty four forty

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Speaker 3: eight hours, then a week. What reasons do you think

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Speaker 3: played into her not being reported to police until what

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Speaker 3: was that Eleven days.

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Speaker 1: Later, Apparently she had had a voice message from Jim Church,

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Speaker 1: and although he said that on the nineteenth she contacted him,

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Speaker 1: according to phone records, he had actually called her. So

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Speaker 1: she was actually trying to live somewhere other than with

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Speaker 1: her father. Jim Church had a couple of properties, and

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Speaker 1: although we don't know the conversation the way that she

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Speaker 1: presented herself when she got picked up by him, we

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Speaker 1: just assumed that he has rung and told her that

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Speaker 1: one of his properties had become available and would she

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Speaker 1: like to go and have look at it and leave

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Speaker 1: a car there, I'll take you to wherever the property was.

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Speaker 1: You know what happened in that car, what was said

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Speaker 1: in that car, or you know why she was going?

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Speaker 1: And nobody knows. I mean, when she was leaving the house,

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Speaker 1: my ex didn't sort of ask the question, oh were

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Speaker 1: you off to? Or are you going to your friend's

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Speaker 1: place or, which to me is a kind of a

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Speaker 1: normal conversation.

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Speaker 3: But she did tell him that she'll be back at

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Speaker 3: five to feed the animals, and obviously she didn't turn

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Speaker 3: up to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I would have said, oh were you

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Speaker 1: off to? Are you going to go and meet your

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Speaker 1: girlfriends or are you going to the pub or what's happening?

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Speaker 1: Because she was dressed up so nicely and didn't look

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Speaker 1: like she'd just walked down the paddock feeding the horses.

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Speaker 3: And she had been dating Jim Church for a while,

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Speaker 3: hadn't she How long had they been together, do you remember?

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Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure how long, but it would have

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Speaker 1: been a couple of years. But he denied having anything

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Speaker 1: to do with her, and had actually told the police

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Speaker 1: that he hadn't spoken to her for months. And when

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Speaker 1: they produced the security camera at the railway station and said, well,

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Speaker 1: this is the nineteenth of August and you've just told

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Speaker 1: us that you hadn't seen her for months. Oh ah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right. I remember now. She rang me and said

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Speaker 1: could you come and pick me up? And he said,

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Speaker 1: and I just thought she'd run out of fuel or something.

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Speaker 1: And as I said earlier, the actual telephone record shows

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Speaker 1: that he rang her, so he would have organized to

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Speaker 1: meet her at Tagra station on that day.

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Speaker 3: We do talk about ambiguous loss a fair bit in

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Speaker 3: this space. It refers to a limbo state, if you like,

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Speaker 3: meaning neither wholly gone or Holly present. What does what

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Speaker 3: does that feel like for you? Sandy?

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Speaker 1: Sorry, it's just avoid I mean, I don't know. It's

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Speaker 1: just an emptiness, just an emptiness that will never be filled.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yes, she's missing, but where is she? You know,

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Speaker 1: the detectives have an idea of where she could possibly be,

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Speaker 1: but it's all guesswork.

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Speaker 3: And look, it's a grief that affects us quite badly,

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Speaker 3: I think. And I've calculated how many days Lisa has

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Speaker 3: been missing as of today, and it's four nine and

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Speaker 3: twenty five days. How has the uncertainty of not knowing

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Speaker 3: where she is affected your grieving process?

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Speaker 1: It's horrible, It's just horrible. I'm with a group of

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Speaker 1: people who also have family members that have been victims

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Speaker 1: of homicide, and the last meeting I went to, a

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Speaker 1: couple of people were explaining how their family member was

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Speaker 1: injured severely and basically left for a couple of days

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Speaker 1: just to die on their own. And that's really hard

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Speaker 1: because you really hope that whatever happened to Lisa, that

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Speaker 1: it was quick and that she wasn't left lying in

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Speaker 1: the bush or unconscious or whatever. People who are very

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Speaker 1: quick to say are but you know, if you find it,

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Speaker 1: you'll get closure. No, there's no closure. What happened? Why

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Speaker 1: was she there? What happened in that car? There's questions

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Speaker 1: that will never be answered, never ever be answered.

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Speaker 3: And that sadly lingers with us, doesn't it. It's hard

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Speaker 3: to process, hard to think about.

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Speaker 1: People say, oh, well, why don't you know, try and

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Speaker 1: go out and do a search and stuff. Well, the

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Speaker 1: area that the detectives decided on was a whole national

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Speaker 1: park and that's just what they're assuming in the time

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Speaker 1: frame that they have. I mean, she could be complete

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Speaker 1: diifferent area, or she might be ten feet out of

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Speaker 1: that area that doesn't get searched. So it's such sun and.

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Speaker 3: That's a daunting thought too. I've been thinking a lot

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Speaker 3: about that in my own space too of recent times,

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Speaker 3: after hearing something and it plays with your head so much,

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Speaker 3: and you trying to work out what to do, and

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Speaker 3: you tell people and they say, well, let's go searching,

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Speaker 3: let's go do that, and it's just it's a whole

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Speaker 3: nother level of having to pull you self back through

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Speaker 3: the grief and the trauma.

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Speaker 1: And I have been out searching. I mean, someone said, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's this area over your Morriset that it's possible. And

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Speaker 1: because I went through the bush and there was an

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Speaker 1: area that looked like she could have been there because

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Speaker 1: it was the grasses all stomped down and everything. I mean,

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Speaker 1: who knows who's been there, But you see all these

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Speaker 1: things and you can just assume things, well, it's possible

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Speaker 1: that he could have brought her down here and this

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Speaker 1: is where it's happened. And you can pretty much justify

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Speaker 1: any area that you go to that you can say, oh,

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Speaker 1: well this could have happened, and that could have happened,

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Speaker 1: and you just don't know, just don't know, and we'll

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Speaker 1: never know. That's the thing. We'll never know.

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Speaker 3: And I try and explain this to people who are

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Speaker 3: listening who aren't living it too, that when a bone

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Speaker 3: is found. We've had a couple of cases this year

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Speaker 3: where people who have been long term missing have been

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Speaker 3: located and you know it might be the jawbone, you know,

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Speaker 3: for example, with Selene who at mess in Tasmania, who

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Speaker 3: is a Belgium national visiting us, when on a bushwalk

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Speaker 3: and never came back out. And it's so amazing that

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Speaker 3: her bone was found. But there's so much that's left

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Speaker 3: for the family to have to dredge themselves through not understanding.

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Speaker 3: And I'll tell you, my feed is full of things

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Speaker 3: like they've found car keys, and they've found a tooth

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Speaker 3: and things like that that I'm reading and hearing, and

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Speaker 3: I just feel for her family and her friends so

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Speaker 3: much at this time, and the volunteers who have been

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Speaker 3: tirelessly trying to find her in bush as well, that

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Speaker 3: you know, they did know she walked in there, so

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Speaker 3: they had a point of interest where they could focus on,

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Speaker 3: and just miraculous that they found part of her, and

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Speaker 3: there does have some sense of relief to know that

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Speaker 3: the searching has produced evidence of where she last was,

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Speaker 3: but that doesn't end our grief. You know, we don't

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Speaker 3: know what happened to her. We don't know how her

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Speaker 3: things have been strewn from one place to the other

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Speaker 3: in that same sort of location. So I do feel

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Speaker 3: for everyone in this space. It is not easy to navigate,

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Speaker 3: and anybody who's listening it's important to understand what that

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Speaker 3: feels like from the other side of the fence as well.

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Speaker 3: And I know people try very hard to grasp and

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Speaker 3: understand it, and it is hard for people who aren't

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Speaker 3: living it to be able to work out what to say,

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Speaker 3: how to say it, what's appropriate. I often say, you know,

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Speaker 3: just a hug, just asking how we are is sometimes

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Speaker 3: just all we need. So I wanted to talk to

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Speaker 3: you about the police. There is a lot of negativity

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Speaker 3: about lack of policing in a lot of the cases

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Speaker 3: that I'm talking about, But I'm really happy today to

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Speaker 3: talk positively about the police and your experience, because there

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Speaker 3: are really good people in the police force, and they

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Speaker 3: do work hard and tirelessly, and Liesel's story on accounts

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Speaker 3: is a very good example of that. Can you tell

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Speaker 3: us about the police at Wyong Station and how they

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Speaker 3: worked on Lisa's case for you.

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Speaker 1: I can't express how grateful I am that I had

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Speaker 1: the detectives and the constables and the sergeants who worked

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Speaker 1: so hard, even though it took ten years to get

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Speaker 1: him to court. They never stopped. I mean even when

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Speaker 1: we were in court, they were bringing in evidence, you know,

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Speaker 1: video from a police car that had been called to

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Speaker 1: the Wyong Railway station an hour after she had gotten

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Speaker 1: in Jim Church's car. So where he said he went,

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Speaker 1: they could actually time because all the roads and had

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Speaker 1: a change now where there were roundabouts is now traffic lights,

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Speaker 1: and you know, where there was good roads, there were

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Speaker 1: bad roads and all that sort of things. So we

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Speaker 1: had all that as well, and they worked so hard.

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Speaker 1: I've seen every interview that they did with Jim Church,

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Speaker 1: and I have to say they remained so calm. I

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Speaker 1: I sometimes looked at the videos and thought I just

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Speaker 1: I could just get up smacking. But they worked tirelessly.

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Speaker 1: And I actually in the group that I'm with that

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Speaker 1: I attend at Wyong, there's another woman there who also

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Speaker 1: will tell you that the detectives and the police of

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Speaker 1: Woong worked hard in her case as well.

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Speaker 3: And do you think like I feel like a lot

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Speaker 3: of the chat that we have in this space, and

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Speaker 3: I know myself personally, it's a lot of the lack

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Speaker 3: of communication and telling us when things are happening, what's happening?

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Speaker 3: Can you tell us? Was that side of quite good

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Speaker 3: for you? With regards to these guys.

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Speaker 1: It was they would tell me things and if I

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Speaker 1: asked a question, they would say, I'm sorry, Sandy, we

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Speaker 1: can't tell you that at the moment, but when we

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Speaker 1: get to court, you will understand. And every single time

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Speaker 1: that that would happen, I would just look at them

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Speaker 1: and say, that is so frustrating. But I understand, and

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Speaker 1: that's what a lot of people don't get. And then

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Speaker 1: they go, oh, bloody police. They won't tell me anything,

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Speaker 1: but they have to keep some things under their hat

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Speaker 1: because it can impact on the end result. And there

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Speaker 1: were things that came out in court that I had

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Speaker 1: asked about and finally got the answers. But I used

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Speaker 1: to say to them all the time, this is really frustrating,

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Speaker 1: but I understand, and a lot of people don't get that.

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Speaker 1: They just go off and abuse the police when they're

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Speaker 1: only trying to do the right thing by us. That's

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Speaker 1: the other thing, you know, they're not trying to hide

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Speaker 1: information so that oh, you know, we'll keep in suspense

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. It's for our benefit that they

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Speaker 1: do that.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's for the integrity of the case, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we talk about this a lot that

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Speaker 3: you know, I've got a list of people who have

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Speaker 3: been working with for this podcast and they've now had

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Speaker 3: to pull out from actually coming on and talking to

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Speaker 3: me because the police have said to them, listen, we're

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Speaker 3: doing a new investigation. We can't actually have any media,

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Speaker 3: you know, I totally understand that that is completely fair

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Speaker 3: and one hundred percent what I want as an individual too.

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Speaker 3: I want to make sure that the integrity of cases

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Speaker 3: is the foremost important thing, as well as looking after

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Speaker 3: the families and caring for them. One thing you did

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Speaker 3: just say then, though, was they said to you, you

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Speaker 3: will find out when we go to court. I think

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Speaker 3: the difference I hear in that is that like in

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Speaker 3: my case, there was no timeline of things that were

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Speaker 3: positive going to happen in the future, like I couldn't see,

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Speaker 3: and that there was no language for me to say

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Speaker 3: you will find out at this point outside of when

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Speaker 3: I got to the point where we were talking about

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Speaker 3: going to inquest, and it was at that point, which

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Speaker 3: I think was twenty three years down the track, I

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Speaker 3: finally knew that potentially we were going to go to

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Speaker 3: an inquest and potentially I would find it the information

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Speaker 3: that I previously had not been allowed to see, even

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Speaker 3: in freedom of information documents that were heavily redacted. So

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Speaker 3: I guess in a way that was a positive for

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Speaker 3: the police to be able to give you some confidence

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Speaker 3: to know that they are working on it. There is

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Speaker 3: a process here. You will eventually find out once we

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Speaker 3: get to the bottom of what we're trying to do.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I could have gone off and abused them

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Speaker 1: and said, well, that's not fair, But sometimes you have

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Speaker 1: to put things in perspective and say, yes, I understand,

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Speaker 1: because if I was to say something to somebody and

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Speaker 1: they went and talked to somebody, and then by the

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Speaker 1: time you say cat, it gets to that person, it's

400
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Speaker 1: a whole story about a cat, you know, and information

401
00:22:49,001 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 1: that they didn't want people to know about in case

402
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: it impacted the way Jim Church reacted or tried to

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Speaker 1: get out of you saying what had happened.

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Speaker 3: And from all accounts, it seems police did believe that

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Speaker 3: Liesel had been murdered and that they knew who was responsible.

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Speaker 3: What was it like for you to watch detectives investigate

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Speaker 3: and build a case over ten years, especially knowing that

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Speaker 3: they were working towards dnswers about your daughter.

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Speaker 1: They always made me feel that Lisa's case, Lisal's subduction

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Speaker 1: was the only thing they were ever working on. And

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Speaker 1: the other girl that I was talking about, who also

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Speaker 1: had exactly the same detectives, she looked at me when

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Speaker 1: I mentioned it in the meeting, and she said you know, Sandy,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly how I felt when they were looking into

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Speaker 1: my son's murder. She said, I always felt I was

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Speaker 1: the only case that they were working on. That's huge

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Speaker 1: because it does make you feel like they're prioritizing you,

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Speaker 1: when in actual fact, they've got six or eight different

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Speaker 1: cases that they're working on. So I think that's a

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Speaker 1: really important thing.

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Speaker 3: Do you think they were pretty confident that they knew

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Speaker 3: who was responsible and that Lisa had been murdered at

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Speaker 3: that point. She's still missing today, Just to be clear

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Speaker 3: with everybody, do you think it would have been a

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Speaker 3: different scenario with the police if they didn't have the

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Speaker 3: person of interest in their sights and she was missing

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Speaker 3: without having somebody to look at as who might have

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Speaker 3: done something to her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the thing is there was so much evidence, even

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Speaker 1: right from the beginning, because they knew that they had

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Speaker 1: a relationship as far as the horses were concerned, and

432
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,841
Speaker 1: by that I mean, you know, he was a farrier

433
00:24:43,321 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 1: and she had horses that needed to be shod. So

434
00:24:46,801 --> 00:24:48,961
Speaker 1: they went and talked to a lot of her friends

435
00:24:49,241 --> 00:24:55,401
Speaker 1: as well as talking to him, and his stories about

436
00:24:55,441 --> 00:25:00,281
Speaker 1: her just didn't gel with them, and so they decided

437
00:25:00,321 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: to go down that path. There was another fellow that

438
00:25:03,201 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: they were looking at, but with all the evidence that

439
00:25:06,241 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: they had about him on the days that irrelevant, he

440
00:25:10,521 --> 00:25:14,041
Speaker 1: can be accounted for in areas that Lisa wasn't.

441
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:20,561
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think probably what I'm thinking about is

442
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 3: the fact that when my mum went missing, there was

443
00:25:24,561 --> 00:25:28,001
Speaker 3: no link to any man per se or anybody who

444
00:25:28,041 --> 00:25:32,241
Speaker 3: potentially may have hurt her. Therefore, there was no action

445
00:25:32,561 --> 00:25:35,201
Speaker 3: essentially done, like she was marked as in occurrence only

446
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 3: less than twenty four hours after their first report was

447
00:25:39,241 --> 00:25:42,521
Speaker 3: written up by New South Wales Police. But as soon

448
00:25:42,521 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 3: as a person was presented to them and that person

449
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,081
Speaker 3: admitted to having an affair with my mum and he's

450
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:54,401
Speaker 3: on her timeline when she disappeared, that's when things changed,

451
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: and that's when the homicide squad took over the case

452
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,561
Speaker 3: and we went to an inquest. Do you feel like

453
00:26:01,001 --> 00:26:05,761
Speaker 3: if there hadn't been that person of interest in Lisa's case,

454
00:26:05,801 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 3: would you think it would have had the same result

455
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:09,481
Speaker 3: With the police.

456
00:26:09,961 --> 00:26:14,481
Speaker 1: I think they would have worked just as hard, But yeah,

457
00:26:15,001 --> 00:26:18,321
Speaker 1: they wouldn't have had any idea of who their suspect

458
00:26:18,721 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 1: would have been.

459
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,001
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a hard conversation to have, isn't it. It's

460
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,441
Speaker 3: very tricky to understand their thought processes and how they

461
00:26:26,801 --> 00:26:29,561
Speaker 3: manage cases as they come in. I guess it's on

462
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 3: a case by case basis. The detectives did say that

463
00:26:33,521 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 3: there were sightings and red herrings over the years. How

464
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:39,721
Speaker 3: did you manage those moments of hope?

465
00:26:40,761 --> 00:26:43,641
Speaker 1: I put out posters of which I still had one

466
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: on the back of my car about Lisel being missing.

467
00:26:47,321 --> 00:26:50,681
Speaker 1: We were specifically asked not to put out a reward. Now,

468
00:26:50,721 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 1: what I'm about to tell you you can e to

469
00:26:52,481 --> 00:26:54,961
Speaker 1: use or not use. That will be entirely up to you.

470
00:26:55,761 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: My ex husband put out posters that had ten thousand

471
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:05,281
Speaker 1: dollars reward. Now why on and surrounds have a lot

472
00:27:05,281 --> 00:27:09,801
Speaker 1: of drug users, and so when the ten thousand dollars

473
00:27:10,001 --> 00:27:15,001
Speaker 1: was on offer, they got numerous calls which they had

474
00:27:15,041 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: to discount. I mean, this ten thousand dollars was in

475
00:27:18,801 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: bright red letters, big letters. And when this person was asked,

476
00:27:24,481 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: did you see the ten thousand dollar reward, they said no, no,

477
00:27:28,521 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: we didn't see the reward. We just saw the picture

478
00:27:30,481 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: and I recognized her from the shopping center somewhere. I mean,

479
00:27:34,281 --> 00:27:36,721
Speaker 1: you couldn't miss it. It was about two and a

480
00:27:36,761 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: half inches tall. But again, all those sightings were nothing

481
00:27:41,761 --> 00:27:45,281
Speaker 1: and it was just about that money, which is really

482
00:27:45,321 --> 00:27:48,001
Speaker 1: sad because I mean, I know they would have looked

483
00:27:48,001 --> 00:27:49,721
Speaker 1: at a few of them and gone, that's not even

484
00:27:49,801 --> 00:27:52,321
Speaker 1: possible that person's you know, I'm not even going to

485
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: go and talk to them because that's just outrageous. But

486
00:27:55,241 --> 00:27:57,001
Speaker 1: they had to talk to a few of them because

487
00:27:57,041 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 1: there was a possibility that that would have happened. And

488
00:28:00,321 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: people got dates wrong. I saw her on the following Saturday,

489
00:28:03,721 --> 00:28:06,761
Speaker 1: and when they checked it out, she went, oh, actually

490
00:28:06,801 --> 00:28:09,801
Speaker 1: it wasn't that Saturday. It was the Saturday before she

491
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,041
Speaker 1: went missing, on the Sunday, And sorry, I saw her

492
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,761
Speaker 1: on Saturday before she went missing. I got my dates wrong.

493
00:28:16,321 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: So you know, there were certain there were some things

494
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,521
Speaker 1: that they would look into and others that they would

495
00:28:21,561 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: just cross off the list.

496
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,761
Speaker 3: And all of those leads coming in too, right, they

497
00:28:25,801 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 3: have to take them as serious because there's a missing

498
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,801
Speaker 3: girl involved, and but as you say, it can bring

499
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 3: a lot of people to the mix who aren't genuine

500
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:37,281
Speaker 3: in there.

501
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,761
Speaker 1: Well, you know, if somebody rang up from Calgoli and said, look,

502
00:28:40,801 --> 00:28:43,641
Speaker 1: I saw working in the minds over here, they would

503
00:28:43,681 --> 00:28:46,201
Speaker 1: have to investigate it. So there was a lot of

504
00:28:46,441 --> 00:28:49,961
Speaker 1: wasted time from people who thought they could just get

505
00:28:49,961 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: the money, but that I don't think they realized that

506
00:28:52,841 --> 00:28:55,081
Speaker 1: it's more to getting that reward than just saying, oh,

507
00:28:55,081 --> 00:28:56,281
Speaker 1: well I saw her, you know.

508
00:28:58,041 --> 00:29:01,081
Speaker 3: And how did you navigate the tension between the official

509
00:29:01,121 --> 00:29:05,761
Speaker 3: investigation and the community interests like those posters being like,

510
00:29:05,921 --> 00:29:08,161
Speaker 3: was there attention from the police like your ex husband

511
00:29:08,161 --> 00:29:10,641
Speaker 3: put the posters up when the police had asked not to.

512
00:29:11,281 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: Was there attention that built up between the police and

513
00:29:15,841 --> 00:29:19,001
Speaker 3: those have thing to come forward and with the community

514
00:29:19,001 --> 00:29:20,161
Speaker 3: interests that it was bringing.

515
00:29:20,721 --> 00:29:23,561
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of the people that they spoke to

516
00:29:23,681 --> 00:29:26,801
Speaker 1: were actually quite helpful, but there were a few that

517
00:29:27,001 --> 00:29:30,081
Speaker 1: just made them frustrated as.

518
00:29:30,001 --> 00:29:31,521
Speaker 3: I'm sure that would be part of their job on

519
00:29:31,561 --> 00:29:32,361
Speaker 3: the daily, wouldn't it.

520
00:29:33,041 --> 00:29:36,041
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely. And the other thing is, you know people say, oh,

521
00:29:36,121 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: I ring the police every week. Well, my attitude, and

522
00:29:39,481 --> 00:29:41,841
Speaker 1: I've said this to the checks as well, I'm not

523
00:29:41,921 --> 00:29:44,081
Speaker 1: going to ring you. You ring me when you've got

524
00:29:44,121 --> 00:29:48,361
Speaker 1: information that I need to hear, because that five minutes

525
00:29:48,681 --> 00:29:51,641
Speaker 1: when you're in the middle of reading something that's relevant

526
00:29:51,681 --> 00:29:54,761
Speaker 1: to Lisa's case. You then have to take your eyes

527
00:29:54,801 --> 00:29:57,281
Speaker 1: off it. You have to break your train of thought,

528
00:29:58,441 --> 00:30:01,281
Speaker 1: and it might only be, you know, a three minute conversation,

529
00:30:01,441 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: but then you've got to go back and try and

530
00:30:03,281 --> 00:30:04,521
Speaker 1: pick up where you left off.

531
00:30:05,121 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: By all accounts, they've done a pretty good job of

532
00:30:07,081 --> 00:30:08,801
Speaker 3: keeping you in a loop though, right You told me

533
00:30:08,841 --> 00:30:12,401
Speaker 3: that they would ring you and you chat with them often, Yes, yeah.

534
00:30:12,281 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: Yep, and they did and a couple of times, you know,

535
00:30:15,921 --> 00:30:18,561
Speaker 1: there's probably one or two times where they said to me,

536
00:30:18,881 --> 00:30:20,601
Speaker 1: we're going to tell you this, but in a lad

537
00:30:20,681 --> 00:30:26,001
Speaker 1: tell anybody. And I'm a great secret keeper. If you

538
00:30:26,041 --> 00:30:27,921
Speaker 1: want to tell me something and you don't want to

539
00:30:27,921 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: go any further than me, there's a security vault in

540
00:30:31,281 --> 00:30:34,681
Speaker 1: my brain and I lock it away. But then I

541
00:30:34,721 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: would also check and make sure is it okay if

542
00:30:37,281 --> 00:30:38,241
Speaker 1: I tell people this?

543
00:30:39,401 --> 00:30:42,041
Speaker 3: And look, we know that the case took ten years

544
00:30:42,201 --> 00:30:45,361
Speaker 3: essentially for them to get to a point where the

545
00:30:45,401 --> 00:30:49,361
Speaker 3: Supreme Court became involved. You were deeply involved in that

546
00:30:49,481 --> 00:30:53,081
Speaker 3: yourself in twenty twenty two. What was the atmosphere like

547
00:30:53,201 --> 00:30:55,041
Speaker 3: for you as you sat through the trial.

548
00:30:55,641 --> 00:31:00,801
Speaker 1: It was funny because I was there for Lisel somebody

549
00:31:00,841 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: had to be there for her, and I did notice

550
00:31:04,761 --> 00:31:09,481
Speaker 1: that on Jim Church's side, there was nobody there for him.

551
00:31:09,921 --> 00:31:13,881
Speaker 1: You know, his sister and a brother and a friend

552
00:31:14,361 --> 00:31:17,561
Speaker 1: and his parents all had to give evidence, but there

553
00:31:17,641 --> 00:31:22,641
Speaker 1: was nobody who wasn't giving evidence there to support him.

554
00:31:23,041 --> 00:31:25,361
Speaker 1: Which I know this is going to sound strange, but

555
00:31:25,401 --> 00:31:30,481
Speaker 1: that's really sad that you have nobody there to support

556
00:31:30,561 --> 00:31:35,361
Speaker 1: you in your time of need. I was really other

557
00:31:35,441 --> 00:31:39,041
Speaker 1: than the solicitors and the Crown prosecutors and the defense

558
00:31:39,121 --> 00:31:42,361
Speaker 1: lawyer the judge. I was really the only other person

559
00:31:42,441 --> 00:31:46,561
Speaker 1: there that had anything to do with the case. So

560
00:31:46,801 --> 00:31:50,881
Speaker 1: it was very minimal. But to try and maintain some

561
00:31:50,921 --> 00:31:54,361
Speaker 1: sort of normality, I pretended that I was a court

562
00:31:54,401 --> 00:31:59,041
Speaker 1: reporter and I wrote everything down, absolutely everything. So I

563
00:31:59,081 --> 00:32:03,961
Speaker 1: have eight writing pads with everything that happened in that courtroom.

564
00:32:04,321 --> 00:32:06,601
Speaker 3: That's important for you to keep right. But that would

565
00:32:06,601 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 3: have been stressful. I would have imagined sitting there hating

566
00:32:09,521 --> 00:32:10,401
Speaker 3: to take notes.

567
00:32:10,841 --> 00:32:14,561
Speaker 1: It did, but it gave me something else to focus

568
00:32:14,601 --> 00:32:16,881
Speaker 1: on because I just would have been I mean, there

569
00:32:16,881 --> 00:32:18,921
Speaker 1: are a couple of times where I couldn't see the

570
00:32:18,961 --> 00:32:21,641
Speaker 1: page because I was crying. But I think if I

571
00:32:21,681 --> 00:32:24,601
Speaker 1: didn't have that. I just would have been a mess

572
00:32:24,641 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: of tears the whole time.

573
00:32:28,201 --> 00:32:31,881
Speaker 3: We know that the police charged James Scott Church known

574
00:32:31,921 --> 00:32:36,241
Speaker 3: as Jim Church, with Liesel's murder. The verdict was set

575
00:32:36,521 --> 00:32:39,521
Speaker 3: down to be heard on the eighth of July twenty

576
00:32:39,561 --> 00:32:43,321
Speaker 3: twenty two. But the day before the verdict, Jim Church

577
00:32:43,401 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 3: took his own life. How did that feel when you

578
00:32:47,561 --> 00:32:52,201
Speaker 3: heard that news that he had committed suicide.

579
00:32:52,881 --> 00:32:55,161
Speaker 1: I just felt like the earth had opened up and

580
00:32:55,201 --> 00:33:02,521
Speaker 1: swallowed me, because I was pretty sure that he would

581
00:33:02,561 --> 00:33:06,041
Speaker 1: have been found guilty. But to find out that he

582
00:33:07,081 --> 00:33:11,761
Speaker 1: killed himself, it was just I suppose it was a

583
00:33:11,761 --> 00:33:14,921
Speaker 1: bit of a double edged sword as well, because he

584
00:33:14,961 --> 00:33:18,641
Speaker 1: could no longer do this to anybody else. But he

585
00:33:18,681 --> 00:33:25,401
Speaker 1: took any information with him, And how dare he? How

586
00:33:25,481 --> 00:33:29,681
Speaker 1: dare he not only took my daughter but he's left

587
00:33:29,761 --> 00:33:30,921
Speaker 1: us with nothing?

588
00:33:32,161 --> 00:33:36,081
Speaker 3: How very cowardly? Isn't it a cowardly act?

589
00:33:37,241 --> 00:33:40,721
Speaker 1: Absolutely? I mean I think about it, and I think,

590
00:33:41,241 --> 00:33:43,281
Speaker 1: you know, if that was me and I was accused

591
00:33:43,321 --> 00:33:47,561
Speaker 1: of something, I would fight to the nail. I would beg,

592
00:33:47,961 --> 00:33:52,041
Speaker 1: borrow and steal just to prove that I, you know,

593
00:33:52,121 --> 00:33:57,321
Speaker 1: I was innocent. I don't think innocent people kill themselves. Yes,

594
00:33:57,481 --> 00:33:59,801
Speaker 1: I've been told, oh, he was scared about going back

595
00:33:59,841 --> 00:34:03,081
Speaker 1: to jail. Jail's nothing. I mean, not that I have

596
00:34:03,241 --> 00:34:06,961
Speaker 1: been in jail, but you would fight and to take

597
00:34:07,041 --> 00:34:10,241
Speaker 1: that away just yeah, he's just a coward.

598
00:34:11,441 --> 00:34:15,601
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry that it just would have been horrendous.

599
00:34:15,721 --> 00:34:18,481
Speaker 3: I can only just imagine how that would have felt

600
00:34:18,481 --> 00:34:21,041
Speaker 3: for you guys. And I just want to say, like,

601
00:34:21,081 --> 00:34:25,041
Speaker 3: this comes down to just a displayed lack of any

602
00:34:25,081 --> 00:34:29,361
Speaker 3: compassion really in our legal system, because essentially the verdict

603
00:34:30,241 --> 00:34:35,201
Speaker 3: of what's happened to Lisaul, with Jim Church taking his

604
00:34:35,281 --> 00:34:38,921
Speaker 3: own life and him being charged with her murder, the

605
00:34:39,001 --> 00:34:42,681
Speaker 3: verdict was not made public, and I wanted to ask

606
00:34:42,721 --> 00:34:45,441
Speaker 3: you if you could explain to everyone the laws around

607
00:34:45,561 --> 00:34:49,921
Speaker 3: sealed verdicts and the inability to release a judged finding,

608
00:34:50,561 --> 00:34:53,401
Speaker 3: and how significant that has been for your family.

609
00:34:53,961 --> 00:34:57,601
Speaker 1: The reason that she couldn't give the verdict is because

610
00:34:58,481 --> 00:35:01,801
Speaker 1: there's no one to punish if it was guilty. There

611
00:35:01,801 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: would be no one to punish. If he was found guilt,

612
00:35:05,961 --> 00:35:09,841
Speaker 1: he could appeal, so you know, there was no verdict

613
00:35:09,841 --> 00:35:14,601
Speaker 1: for anything, but to not be able to have that

614
00:35:14,681 --> 00:35:19,601
Speaker 1: decision from the judge it's heartbreaking because I mean, we

615
00:35:19,641 --> 00:35:22,561
Speaker 1: all have our own ideas and our own opinions, and

616
00:35:22,601 --> 00:35:26,681
Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, he's guilty. But we need

617
00:35:26,721 --> 00:35:29,041
Speaker 1: to have that changed. We need to have it so

618
00:35:29,121 --> 00:35:33,601
Speaker 1: that we can get even though there's no person to

619
00:35:33,721 --> 00:35:37,921
Speaker 1: punish or for them to appeal or to, you know,

620
00:35:38,401 --> 00:35:42,201
Speaker 1: do whatever, We've got nothing, nothing.

621
00:35:44,081 --> 00:35:47,161
Speaker 3: It's hard, it's a hard rule. It feels quite cruel

622
00:35:47,361 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 3: in a way for the families left behind. Who are

623
00:35:50,641 --> 00:35:52,721
Speaker 3: you know, Lisal is one of six, so she's got

624
00:35:52,761 --> 00:35:58,921
Speaker 3: five siblings, your husband, your family, her friends. It spreads

625
00:35:58,921 --> 00:36:02,401
Speaker 3: its wings and it touches a lot of people. So

626
00:36:03,001 --> 00:36:08,121
Speaker 3: you ended up pushing it to the coroner, and you

627
00:36:08,201 --> 00:36:12,321
Speaker 3: did get a final ruling last year in twenty twenty five,

628
00:36:12,481 --> 00:36:16,001
Speaker 3: that Lisa was killed by Jim Church. What did that

629
00:36:16,041 --> 00:36:19,841
Speaker 3: moment feel for you, even though her body has still

630
00:36:19,881 --> 00:36:20,761
Speaker 3: never been found.

631
00:36:21,961 --> 00:36:27,041
Speaker 1: It was exactly where I wanted. Although a coronor can't

632
00:36:27,481 --> 00:36:31,841
Speaker 1: claim someone to be guilty of a crime, she worded

633
00:36:31,881 --> 00:36:37,921
Speaker 1: it in a way that Lisa Lesla is a victim

634
00:36:37,921 --> 00:36:43,441
Speaker 1: of homicide at the hands of Jim Church. So I

635
00:36:43,561 --> 00:36:48,161
Speaker 1: was so pleased to hear that because up until that point,

636
00:36:49,041 --> 00:36:52,521
Speaker 1: I've always had to say alleged when I know it

637
00:36:52,561 --> 00:36:56,561
Speaker 1: to be true, you know, alleged abduction and alleged murder.

638
00:36:57,081 --> 00:36:59,761
Speaker 3: So even though he'd passed away, if you did any

639
00:36:59,801 --> 00:37:02,081
Speaker 3: media or anything like that, the directive was that you

640
00:37:02,161 --> 00:37:04,481
Speaker 3: had to use the word alleged because he hadn't actually

641
00:37:04,561 --> 00:37:05,641
Speaker 3: been charged with anything.

642
00:37:05,721 --> 00:37:10,161
Speaker 1: That's exactly right, yep. And that's hard. That is so hard,

643
00:37:10,881 --> 00:37:15,881
Speaker 1: because the other thing was the law says you're innocent

644
00:37:15,961 --> 00:37:22,201
Speaker 1: until proven guilty. So up until the coroner gave her

645
00:37:22,281 --> 00:37:28,041
Speaker 1: hand down, he was presumed innocent. And that that is

646
00:37:28,121 --> 00:37:33,401
Speaker 1: like a knife in my heart because he wasn't innocent.

647
00:37:33,721 --> 00:37:35,961
Speaker 1: Not in my eyes. He wasn't innocent. But when the

648
00:37:36,041 --> 00:37:40,361
Speaker 1: judge said that, I thought, oh, thank goodness. A journalist

649
00:37:40,401 --> 00:37:42,921
Speaker 1: actually spoke to me one time and I said, I'd

650
00:37:43,001 --> 00:37:44,681
Speaker 1: like to be able to call him a murderer, and

651
00:37:44,761 --> 00:37:46,641
Speaker 1: she said, you know you can do that, she said,

652
00:37:46,641 --> 00:37:48,521
Speaker 1: because you can't defame a dead person.

653
00:37:49,641 --> 00:37:51,681
Speaker 3: There's so many things that we want to scream from

654
00:37:51,681 --> 00:37:54,361
Speaker 3: the rooftop right when we're in this space, and it's

655
00:37:54,481 --> 00:37:57,161
Speaker 3: very hard, and I think it just adds more pressure

656
00:37:57,361 --> 00:38:00,561
Speaker 3: and it can be like a pressure cooker. I guess too.

657
00:38:00,641 --> 00:38:03,921
Speaker 3: When I think about it, that you being suppressed from

658
00:38:03,961 --> 00:38:07,321
Speaker 3: being able to open talk about things and speak about things,

659
00:38:07,921 --> 00:38:11,681
Speaker 3: it actually makes it so much harder to manage the

660
00:38:11,761 --> 00:38:17,001
Speaker 3: stress and manage the loss that you're trying to process.

661
00:38:17,641 --> 00:38:21,081
Speaker 1: Especially to Sally, when you get people saying, but you've

662
00:38:21,081 --> 00:38:26,161
Speaker 1: got five other children, what I do? What Why don't

663
00:38:26,201 --> 00:38:28,761
Speaker 1: you go home and pick one of your children and

664
00:38:28,881 --> 00:38:31,521
Speaker 1: put it in a cupboard and pretend it doesn't exist,

665
00:38:31,601 --> 00:38:34,401
Speaker 1: and then come back and tell me that you've got

666
00:38:34,401 --> 00:38:38,161
Speaker 1: three other kids and it doesn't matter. That's frustrating. Or

667
00:38:38,761 --> 00:38:41,041
Speaker 1: as I said earlier, I have a poster on the

668
00:38:41,041 --> 00:38:44,361
Speaker 1: back of my car still because my daughter is still missing.

669
00:38:44,961 --> 00:38:47,361
Speaker 1: And somebody came up and said, oh, the court cases over,

670
00:38:47,401 --> 00:38:49,961
Speaker 1: you can take that sticker off your car now, And

671
00:38:50,041 --> 00:38:52,481
Speaker 1: I just looked at this person. I said, are you serious?

672
00:38:53,201 --> 00:38:55,321
Speaker 1: And they said, well, you know the court cases over.

673
00:38:55,401 --> 00:38:58,721
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, And he's dead and my daughter is

674
00:38:58,761 --> 00:39:02,761
Speaker 1: still missing. So when do you get off telling me

675
00:39:02,881 --> 00:39:04,521
Speaker 1: that I can't have that poster?

676
00:39:05,201 --> 00:39:09,561
Speaker 3: You know, Sandy, words matter, And I say this all

677
00:39:09,601 --> 00:39:13,361
Speaker 3: the time, please, And I know the people in this

678
00:39:13,441 --> 00:39:17,721
Speaker 3: space who are listening, you know, awesome humans and understanding

679
00:39:17,721 --> 00:39:19,681
Speaker 3: it because they've probably heard me say it that trillions

680
00:39:19,681 --> 00:39:22,041
Speaker 3: of times now. But words do matter, and what you

681
00:39:22,081 --> 00:39:26,921
Speaker 3: say sticks, So please be sensitive, Please be careful when

682
00:39:26,961 --> 00:39:30,441
Speaker 3: you're referring to people and saying things and suggesting things

683
00:39:30,441 --> 00:39:33,681
Speaker 3: in this space, because you know, to sit there and say, oh, well,

684
00:39:33,681 --> 00:39:37,081
Speaker 3: you've got five other children, that's like they've just wiped

685
00:39:37,121 --> 00:39:39,481
Speaker 3: the floor of lisaor like she doesn't matter, and she

686
00:39:39,561 --> 00:39:40,441
Speaker 3: does matter.

687
00:39:40,881 --> 00:39:45,641
Speaker 1: Which is exactly what Jim Church did. Like the things

688
00:39:45,681 --> 00:39:48,881
Speaker 1: he's don't get me wrong, anyone who thinks that children

689
00:39:48,921 --> 00:39:52,441
Speaker 1: are perfect, they're living in la la land, because all

690
00:39:52,561 --> 00:39:58,641
Speaker 1: kids do naughty things. But for the way he spoke

691
00:39:58,721 --> 00:40:03,441
Speaker 1: about her, she didn't need to be spoken about like that.

692
00:40:04,241 --> 00:40:07,281
Speaker 1: And it was just horrible the things that he said,

693
00:40:08,361 --> 00:40:11,921
Speaker 1: And because he was actually going out with another woman

694
00:40:12,161 --> 00:40:15,321
Speaker 1: and Lisa was a little secret on the side, and

695
00:40:15,761 --> 00:40:19,241
Speaker 1: when she was confronted with the fact that Lisa was

696
00:40:19,441 --> 00:40:23,841
Speaker 1: in a triangle sort of thing, he denied having anything

697
00:40:23,921 --> 00:40:26,561
Speaker 1: to do with her, and in actual fact they were

698
00:40:27,001 --> 00:40:29,401
Speaker 1: out having sex. I mean, she wasn't the only one,

699
00:40:29,681 --> 00:40:31,961
Speaker 1: but he was making out that this woman was the

700
00:40:32,001 --> 00:40:34,521
Speaker 1: love of his life, and he wouldn't go anywhere, wouldn't

701
00:40:34,521 --> 00:40:37,081
Speaker 1: search anywhere else. But he was actually having an affair

702
00:40:37,161 --> 00:40:40,121
Speaker 1: with not just Lisa, but two other women at the

703
00:40:40,161 --> 00:40:40,721
Speaker 1: same time.

704
00:40:42,001 --> 00:40:44,521
Speaker 3: And let's be honest, she was single, he was in

705
00:40:44,561 --> 00:40:47,761
Speaker 3: a relationship. So there's the situation at hand.

706
00:40:48,281 --> 00:40:50,801
Speaker 1: And the other thing is there were reports that she

707
00:40:50,961 --> 00:40:55,721
Speaker 1: was pregnant when she disappeared, but in actual fact, having

708
00:40:55,801 --> 00:40:59,761
Speaker 1: been in the courtroom, they interviewed the doctor, they looked

709
00:40:59,761 --> 00:41:04,601
Speaker 1: at ultrasounds, and there's nowhere in the world that Lisa

710
00:41:04,721 --> 00:41:09,241
Speaker 1: was pressed. She had told him she was. But that

711
00:41:09,361 --> 00:41:12,041
Speaker 1: was the other thing, Like she could tell everybody in

712
00:41:12,081 --> 00:41:14,801
Speaker 1: the world that she was pregnant to him, and you know,

713
00:41:14,961 --> 00:41:16,841
Speaker 1: he was her lover and all that sort of thing,

714
00:41:17,441 --> 00:41:20,241
Speaker 1: but he wouldn't tell anybody that he had anything to

715
00:41:20,241 --> 00:41:22,641
Speaker 1: do with her at all. You know, he kept his

716
00:41:22,761 --> 00:41:25,921
Speaker 1: relationship a big secret, but she was allowed to tell

717
00:41:26,001 --> 00:41:31,161
Speaker 1: whoever she wanted, So that speaks volumes.

718
00:41:31,641 --> 00:41:34,841
Speaker 3: How do you feel about the coroner's recommendations that New

719
00:41:34,841 --> 00:41:38,401
Speaker 3: South Wales's law should now be reviewed to allow all

720
00:41:38,561 --> 00:41:40,881
Speaker 3: verdicts to be released even in the case that the

721
00:41:40,961 --> 00:41:41,801
Speaker 3: accused dies.

722
00:41:43,881 --> 00:41:48,881
Speaker 1: A huge sigh of relief. I was so impressed that

723
00:41:48,921 --> 00:41:53,681
Speaker 1: she went that far, although we may not ever hear

724
00:41:54,081 --> 00:41:57,401
Speaker 1: the verdict, and I hope that it never ever happens

725
00:41:57,441 --> 00:42:01,721
Speaker 1: to anybody ever again. But we need to have a

726
00:42:01,801 --> 00:42:06,041
Speaker 1: law in place that says if the person died either

727
00:42:06,081 --> 00:42:11,721
Speaker 1: by their own hand, natural causes, or an accident, that

728
00:42:11,761 --> 00:42:14,441
Speaker 1: the verdict can still be read. And I'm not talking

729
00:42:14,481 --> 00:42:17,201
Speaker 1: about all the evidence is half given and the person

730
00:42:17,361 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: passes away for whatever reason. I understand that you can't

731
00:42:21,041 --> 00:42:23,401
Speaker 1: make a verdict out of that because there's more information

732
00:42:23,481 --> 00:42:26,521
Speaker 1: that has to be done. You know, the person who's defending,

733
00:42:26,801 --> 00:42:29,401
Speaker 1: they haven't been able to put their case forward either,

734
00:42:29,521 --> 00:42:32,961
Speaker 1: So I understand that once that happens, that's the end

735
00:42:32,961 --> 00:42:36,601
Speaker 1: of the court case. But in this situation, when we're

736
00:42:36,641 --> 00:42:39,281
Speaker 1: ready to come in, all the evidence has been given,

737
00:42:39,441 --> 00:42:42,521
Speaker 1: the judge has gone away, they've gone away made a decision,

738
00:42:42,601 --> 00:42:46,681
Speaker 1: and they've come back and they've decided whether the person

739
00:42:46,761 --> 00:42:49,961
Speaker 1: is guilty or innocent, and then that person dies. I

740
00:42:50,001 --> 00:42:52,881
Speaker 1: think we have the right to know what that judge

741
00:42:52,961 --> 00:42:55,601
Speaker 1: or jury has decided.

742
00:42:55,401 --> 00:42:57,921
Speaker 3: Based on the evidence that has been presented.

743
00:42:57,521 --> 00:43:02,041
Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, absolutely, And you know, like those people then

744
00:43:02,401 --> 00:43:06,121
Speaker 1: can't leave the courtroom and go and talk to their neighbors,

745
00:43:06,481 --> 00:43:09,361
Speaker 1: or they can't talk to anybody about it because the

746
00:43:09,441 --> 00:43:14,161
Speaker 1: decision that's been made, that's it. No one will hear it.

747
00:43:14,481 --> 00:43:17,161
Speaker 1: But they've got to then live with that for the

748
00:43:17,201 --> 00:43:21,081
Speaker 1: rest of their lives, knowing that they can't speak what

749
00:43:21,121 --> 00:43:24,241
Speaker 1: their decision was. So I kind of feel sorry for them.

750
00:43:24,401 --> 00:43:27,001
Speaker 3: Well fingers crossed. I mean, that only happened last year,

751
00:43:27,081 --> 00:43:29,761
Speaker 3: so let's hope that that is churning. And she was

752
00:43:29,761 --> 00:43:31,961
Speaker 3: a bit of a powerhouse from all accounts from what

753
00:43:32,001 --> 00:43:34,921
Speaker 3: I've heard, So you know, good on that coroner for

754
00:43:35,321 --> 00:43:38,441
Speaker 3: sticking with her guns and making sure that you know,

755
00:43:38,681 --> 00:43:39,601
Speaker 3: her word is heard.

756
00:43:39,961 --> 00:43:40,201
Speaker 4: Yeah.

757
00:43:40,761 --> 00:43:43,241
Speaker 1: People say, oh, are you pleased with the result, and

758
00:43:43,241 --> 00:43:45,681
Speaker 1: they go, yeah, two out of three ain't bad. And

759
00:43:45,721 --> 00:43:47,161
Speaker 1: they say, what do you mean two out of three?

760
00:43:47,201 --> 00:43:51,081
Speaker 1: And I said, well, firstly, the coroner has basically said

761
00:43:51,121 --> 00:43:56,241
Speaker 1: that Jim Church murdered Lesel. Secondly, she's recommended that this

762
00:43:56,321 --> 00:44:00,801
Speaker 1: information goes to the Law Review Committee and something should

763
00:44:00,841 --> 00:44:03,721
Speaker 1: be done. So there are two things, And the third

764
00:44:03,721 --> 00:44:11,241
Speaker 1: thing is we still don't have Lisel. So once Lisa

765
00:44:11,401 --> 00:44:15,601
Speaker 1: comes home, then that's ticked all my boxes.

766
00:44:16,961 --> 00:44:20,801
Speaker 3: And I hope more than anything we find her. I

767
00:44:20,881 --> 00:44:21,601
Speaker 3: really really do.

768
00:44:22,681 --> 00:44:24,561
Speaker 1: Yeah, I say to people, I don't care if it's

769
00:44:24,601 --> 00:44:29,201
Speaker 1: just a fingernail toenail or the toe bone of something

770
00:44:29,401 --> 00:44:34,481
Speaker 1: that identifies that she's been found. The other thing I

771
00:44:34,481 --> 00:44:37,081
Speaker 1: want to say about that, too, is when the media

772
00:44:37,161 --> 00:44:42,161
Speaker 1: get hold of information about bones being found. That's really

773
00:44:42,241 --> 00:44:46,561
Speaker 1: hard on the families because even though there's no possible

774
00:44:46,601 --> 00:44:50,081
Speaker 1: way that she would be found in Tasmania, but when

775
00:44:50,161 --> 00:44:53,041
Speaker 1: bones are found and it's released to the media, we

776
00:44:53,161 --> 00:44:56,881
Speaker 1: all have this gosh, I hope it's not them, but

777
00:44:57,001 --> 00:44:58,721
Speaker 1: she's I hope it is. Moment.

778
00:44:58,921 --> 00:45:02,601
Speaker 3: It's a horrendous thing to be and it's probably the

779
00:45:02,641 --> 00:45:05,641
Speaker 3: hardest thing I find to.

780
00:45:05,161 --> 00:45:07,481
Speaker 1: You should be told that they can't release anything until

781
00:45:07,521 --> 00:45:09,921
Speaker 1: the DNA comes back and proves who the person is,

782
00:45:10,441 --> 00:45:13,801
Speaker 1: because I know it's newsworthy and you know, all that

783
00:45:13,801 --> 00:45:17,121
Speaker 1: sort of stuff, but I don't think they realize the

784
00:45:17,281 --> 00:45:19,321
Speaker 1: impact that it has on the families.

785
00:45:20,721 --> 00:45:25,961
Speaker 3: I wanted to bring some chat to how your family

786
00:45:27,001 --> 00:45:31,641
Speaker 3: and the community have helped your family and one of

787
00:45:31,681 --> 00:45:34,041
Speaker 3: the things I wanted to ask, and I already know

788
00:45:34,481 --> 00:45:37,121
Speaker 3: pretty much the answer to this myself, but I did

789
00:45:37,161 --> 00:45:41,121
Speaker 3: want to ask you personally, how have events like Lisa's

790
00:45:41,121 --> 00:45:46,081
Speaker 3: birthday and Christmas and Easter changed since her disappearance, and

791
00:45:46,121 --> 00:45:47,881
Speaker 3: how do you cope on those days.

792
00:45:49,041 --> 00:45:53,721
Speaker 1: I've actually written a poem in regards to Christmas. I've

793
00:45:53,761 --> 00:45:55,801
Speaker 1: turned my phone off so I can't read it at

794
00:45:55,801 --> 00:45:58,561
Speaker 1: the moment, and if I did read it, it would

795
00:45:58,601 --> 00:46:02,961
Speaker 1: be very jagged because I cry. But it basically says

796
00:46:02,961 --> 00:46:06,721
Speaker 1: that there's an empty chair at the table at Christmas,

797
00:46:08,041 --> 00:46:10,721
Speaker 1: and you know, you put a smile on your face.

798
00:46:11,681 --> 00:46:14,041
Speaker 1: As much as you want to cry, you can't because

799
00:46:14,601 --> 00:46:17,841
Speaker 1: you know it's supposed to be a happy day. You know,

800
00:46:17,921 --> 00:46:23,201
Speaker 1: you sort of hurt yourself somehow that allows you to

801
00:46:24,321 --> 00:46:28,241
Speaker 1: show the emotion of sadness and crying and people go, oh,

802
00:46:28,281 --> 00:46:30,521
Speaker 1: you're all right, Yeah, yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm

803
00:46:30,761 --> 00:46:32,841
Speaker 1: you know, it just hurts a lot, you know, and

804
00:46:32,881 --> 00:46:35,881
Speaker 1: that's why I'm crying. But in actual fact, what I'm

805
00:46:35,921 --> 00:46:42,881
Speaker 1: doing is crying because my girl's not there, and that's hard.

806
00:46:43,081 --> 00:46:47,841
Speaker 1: That's hard. Birthday's A friend of my son's has come

807
00:46:47,881 --> 00:46:50,761
Speaker 1: over to visit and we were talking. She said, I

808
00:46:50,801 --> 00:46:53,001
Speaker 1: turned thirty in a couple of weeks and I said, oh, really,

809
00:46:53,081 --> 00:46:56,281
Speaker 1: when's your birthday? And she said the second of April.

810
00:46:58,601 --> 00:47:06,201
Speaker 1: And I'm just burst into tears, which is it's really

811
00:47:06,241 --> 00:47:09,401
Speaker 1: hard because you can't have a birthday on that day.

812
00:47:09,441 --> 00:47:12,521
Speaker 1: That's my daughter's birthday. You make another day. You know.

813
00:47:12,601 --> 00:47:14,561
Speaker 1: I don't care when you have a birthday, but don't

814
00:47:14,561 --> 00:47:16,041
Speaker 1: have it on that day, you know. I mean, I

815
00:47:16,081 --> 00:47:19,201
Speaker 1: know there's millions of people born on the second of April,

816
00:47:19,281 --> 00:47:24,881
Speaker 1: but it really hits hard. You're doing things. Or there's

817
00:47:24,921 --> 00:47:27,721
Speaker 1: a song by Willie Nilson called Always on My Mind

818
00:47:28,481 --> 00:47:32,521
Speaker 1: and the first lot of lyrics of that. Sometimes I

819
00:47:32,561 --> 00:47:35,041
Speaker 1: can listen to it, and sometimes I just hear the

820
00:47:35,041 --> 00:47:39,281
Speaker 1: words and I have to move on because I can't

821
00:47:39,321 --> 00:47:44,241
Speaker 1: listen to it without without crying. That's hard. But not

822
00:47:44,321 --> 00:47:48,841
Speaker 1: even just Christmas and Eastern birthdays. It's your brother's birthday

823
00:47:49,081 --> 00:47:51,521
Speaker 1: or it's one of your sister's birthdays. You should be here.

824
00:47:51,681 --> 00:47:54,321
Speaker 1: I mean. I went horse riding with one of my

825
00:47:54,441 --> 00:47:57,921
Speaker 1: daughters and I was crying, and she said to me,

826
00:47:58,001 --> 00:48:00,961
Speaker 1: what's wrong, And I said, I shouldn't be on the

827
00:48:00,961 --> 00:48:04,481
Speaker 1: back of this horse. Lesha should be here writing with

828
00:48:04,521 --> 00:48:09,601
Speaker 1: her sister and her nephew. You know that's crazy, isn't it.

829
00:48:09,641 --> 00:48:13,041
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm enjoying my day with my

830
00:48:13,201 --> 00:48:17,361
Speaker 1: daughter and my grandson, and all I can think I

831
00:48:17,601 --> 00:48:19,241
Speaker 1: was Lisal should be here.

832
00:48:21,641 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 3: You did mention that you have a Facebook page set

833
00:48:24,041 --> 00:48:27,321
Speaker 3: up for Lisa. It's called Fine Lisel Smith. How has

834
00:48:27,321 --> 00:48:30,081
Speaker 3: that community supported you and your family and keeping her

835
00:48:30,441 --> 00:48:31,161
Speaker 3: story alive.

836
00:48:32,321 --> 00:48:35,761
Speaker 1: I have about four and a half thousand people, and

837
00:48:36,241 --> 00:48:39,161
Speaker 1: I mean I keep people updated about what's happened, what

838
00:48:39,201 --> 00:48:42,401
Speaker 1: was happening in court, like after the court case of course,

839
00:48:42,761 --> 00:48:46,481
Speaker 1: about the verdict, and about the coroner's court. So I

840
00:48:46,561 --> 00:48:51,481
Speaker 1: keep people informed because that's important. But also every so

841
00:48:51,601 --> 00:48:54,881
Speaker 1: often something will come up on my Facebook page and

842
00:48:54,921 --> 00:48:57,881
Speaker 1: I think that's so relevant to Lisa, and I'll put

843
00:48:57,921 --> 00:49:02,761
Speaker 1: it on Lisal's page, and you know, it's funny the

844
00:49:02,801 --> 00:49:04,721
Speaker 1: amount of people that come in and even if they

845
00:49:04,841 --> 00:49:06,921
Speaker 1: just like it, they don't have to make a comment.

846
00:49:07,601 --> 00:49:11,361
Speaker 1: But the support that I get from those people is

847
00:49:11,481 --> 00:49:14,881
Speaker 1: pretty amazing. The other thing is if I talk to people,

848
00:49:15,641 --> 00:49:17,441
Speaker 1: or someone will asks me about the sticker in the

849
00:49:17,481 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: back of my car, I will tell them and ask

850
00:49:19,481 --> 00:49:23,681
Speaker 1: them to like it and share it. I've had people say, oh,

851
00:49:24,001 --> 00:49:26,241
Speaker 1: I'm going back to England. I go, yes, I know,

852
00:49:26,801 --> 00:49:29,321
Speaker 1: but you never know. You could be sitting in a

853
00:49:29,361 --> 00:49:34,561
Speaker 1: cafe in France and somebody mentions the name Lisel, and

854
00:49:34,761 --> 00:49:37,481
Speaker 1: you immediately sort of sit back in your chair and

855
00:49:37,601 --> 00:49:41,441
Speaker 1: lean towards where that name came from, just so they

856
00:49:41,521 --> 00:49:46,081
Speaker 1: can hear if there's anything relevant that you could possibly

857
00:49:46,121 --> 00:49:47,081
Speaker 1: share with me.

858
00:49:47,881 --> 00:49:50,361
Speaker 3: I've learnt over the years to not make judgment on

859
00:49:51,161 --> 00:49:55,081
Speaker 3: who were what, how, because we just don't know what

860
00:49:55,081 --> 00:49:57,201
Speaker 3: you're going to stumble across and what you're going to find.

861
00:49:57,961 --> 00:50:00,521
Speaker 3: And power of the people is, you know, a term

862
00:50:00,561 --> 00:50:05,841
Speaker 3: I use often because people talking about it, sharing it, remembering,

863
00:50:06,041 --> 00:50:07,881
Speaker 3: just having a moment to think about it is what

864
00:50:07,961 --> 00:50:11,801
Speaker 3: actually helps keep the stories alive and make sure that

865
00:50:11,801 --> 00:50:13,841
Speaker 3: they're not forgotten until we bring them home.

866
00:50:14,321 --> 00:50:18,001
Speaker 1: Yeah, because just because she's not here now, it doesn't

867
00:50:18,001 --> 00:50:22,041
Speaker 1: mean she wasn't, you know. And I have friends, her

868
00:50:22,081 --> 00:50:25,281
Speaker 1: friends come in and make comments as well, But you know,

869
00:50:25,641 --> 00:50:28,241
Speaker 1: she was here and she did breathe, and she was alive,

870
00:50:28,361 --> 00:50:31,681
Speaker 1: and she didn't interact, and there was a place for

871
00:50:31,721 --> 00:50:32,961
Speaker 1: her in this world.

872
00:50:34,161 --> 00:50:36,201
Speaker 3: And that poster that you've got to it's such a

873
00:50:36,241 --> 00:50:40,121
Speaker 3: beautiful photo of her, Like she's just radiant and looks

874
00:50:40,161 --> 00:50:44,321
Speaker 3: like she's just living her best life. She's got a beautiful,

875
00:50:44,321 --> 00:50:47,321
Speaker 3: big smile, and she's just a gorgeous girl. And you know,

876
00:50:47,361 --> 00:50:51,481
Speaker 3: she didn't deserve what has happened to her, and she matters,

877
00:50:51,881 --> 00:50:54,801
Speaker 3: and so you know, while we're still in that process

878
00:50:54,841 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 3: of we don't know where she is, she matters every

879
00:50:57,481 --> 00:50:59,721
Speaker 3: single day and we don't want to forget about her

880
00:50:59,881 --> 00:51:02,601
Speaker 3: and make sure that people don't forget about her either

881
00:51:02,761 --> 00:51:04,521
Speaker 3: until such time as she is found.

882
00:51:05,321 --> 00:51:09,881
Speaker 1: Yeah, her nieces and nephews know all about it. One

883
00:51:09,921 --> 00:51:13,881
Speaker 1: of my grandsons, I was showing him a photo of

884
00:51:14,041 --> 00:51:18,041
Speaker 1: Lesel and he said, is that my auntie that died?

885
00:51:18,441 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: And I said, yes, it is daring and he said,

886
00:51:22,401 --> 00:51:25,281
Speaker 1: that's really sad, Nana, and I said, yes, it is daring,

887
00:51:25,321 --> 00:51:28,601
Speaker 1: and I just gave him the biggest hug because a

888
00:51:28,721 --> 00:51:32,001
Speaker 1: child four or five years of age shouldn't have that

889
00:51:32,161 --> 00:51:33,601
Speaker 1: trauma in their life either.

890
00:51:35,161 --> 00:51:38,321
Speaker 3: I wanted to say ambiguous loss. I'm glad they've termed

891
00:51:38,321 --> 00:51:40,321
Speaker 3: the phrase because before that it was hard to sort

892
00:51:40,321 --> 00:51:43,721
Speaker 3: of put a term to it, I guess, but it

893
00:51:43,761 --> 00:51:48,001
Speaker 3: brings a kind of grief that doesn't end with traditional ritual.

894
00:51:48,441 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 3: We don't have funerals, we don't have a body. How

895
00:51:52,641 --> 00:51:55,801
Speaker 3: have you navigated that state of not knowing on a

896
00:51:55,881 --> 00:51:56,521
Speaker 3: day by day?

897
00:51:58,241 --> 00:52:02,281
Speaker 1: It's hard because My father passed away when he was

898
00:52:02,321 --> 00:52:07,241
Speaker 1: fifty four and his ashes were scattered at ta Wound Bay,

899
00:52:07,481 --> 00:52:09,801
Speaker 1: which is on the central coast of New South Wales.

900
00:52:10,801 --> 00:52:15,961
Speaker 1: And I know how he died, I know when he died,

901
00:52:16,881 --> 00:52:21,041
Speaker 1: I know where he is. And as much as I

902
00:52:21,081 --> 00:52:24,681
Speaker 1: love my dad and I'm missing terribly to this day,

903
00:52:24,881 --> 00:52:27,441
Speaker 1: I mean there are times where I think, Dad, I

904
00:52:27,801 --> 00:52:29,801
Speaker 1: so want to tell you about this, you know, and

905
00:52:30,521 --> 00:52:32,761
Speaker 1: the support that he would have given me. I'm not

906
00:52:32,801 --> 00:52:34,921
Speaker 1: saying the rest of the family haven't, but the support

907
00:52:34,961 --> 00:52:39,281
Speaker 1: that he would have given me would have been really important.

908
00:52:40,041 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: But with Lisel, I don't know any of those I'm

909
00:52:45,521 --> 00:52:48,481
Speaker 1: sorry I can't repeat them because I just get dropset.

910
00:52:48,961 --> 00:52:51,561
Speaker 1: But I don't have any of those answers.

911
00:52:52,201 --> 00:52:56,041
Speaker 3: Tell us about the day that Ben Fordham, the radio king,

912
00:52:56,281 --> 00:53:00,481
Speaker 3: Spottedgy driving in your car and what happened That was

913
00:53:00,521 --> 00:53:01,841
Speaker 3: so funny.

914
00:53:01,921 --> 00:53:05,361
Speaker 1: We'd actually been to the coroner's court and my friend

915
00:53:05,401 --> 00:53:09,041
Speaker 1: had flown up from Melbourne to support me, which I'm

916
00:53:09,081 --> 00:53:13,881
Speaker 1: forever grateful for. I dropped her at the airport after

917
00:53:13,921 --> 00:53:15,681
Speaker 1: being at the coroner's court. I would have driven a

918
00:53:15,681 --> 00:53:18,041
Speaker 1: different way home, but because I dropped her at the airport,

919
00:53:18,081 --> 00:53:22,201
Speaker 1: I was actually coming through Sydney, and I pulled up

920
00:53:22,241 --> 00:53:24,641
Speaker 1: at a set of lights and I looked in the

921
00:53:24,641 --> 00:53:28,281
Speaker 1: rear vision mirror and I could see this person taking

922
00:53:28,281 --> 00:53:31,521
Speaker 1: a photo of my car. Because my car's a bit

923
00:53:31,881 --> 00:53:35,601
Speaker 1: out there. It's flames and dragons and stuff on the outside,

924
00:53:36,721 --> 00:53:39,321
Speaker 1: and I saw this person taking a photo and I went, oh,

925
00:53:39,361 --> 00:53:41,841
Speaker 1: that's okay. People take photos all the time, but how

926
00:53:41,881 --> 00:53:44,081
Speaker 1: great is it because now they're not just taking a

927
00:53:44,121 --> 00:53:47,321
Speaker 1: photo of my car, but they're actually getting the photo

928
00:53:47,481 --> 00:53:50,201
Speaker 1: of Lisa on the back. So when they expand that,

929
00:53:50,441 --> 00:53:53,321
Speaker 1: hopefully they will go in and go, oh, wow, this

930
00:53:53,441 --> 00:53:55,961
Speaker 1: lady's got a missing child. Let's go in and have

931
00:53:56,001 --> 00:53:59,961
Speaker 1: a look at the page and we'll share it and everything. Anyway,

932
00:54:00,041 --> 00:54:02,681
Speaker 1: by the time I got home, there was a message

933
00:54:02,961 --> 00:54:06,481
Speaker 1: on Lisa's page said could you please ring this number.

934
00:54:06,561 --> 00:54:10,561
Speaker 1: It's Ben Fordham And I thought, okay, he's obviously heard

935
00:54:11,161 --> 00:54:14,521
Speaker 1: somebody mention it on the radio station because I had

936
00:54:14,561 --> 00:54:19,041
Speaker 1: spoken to Ray Hadley about eighteen months before about lisel

937
00:54:19,441 --> 00:54:21,841
Speaker 1: so I rang and I said, yes, mister ford and

938
00:54:21,841 --> 00:54:25,361
Speaker 1: what can I do for you? And he said, I

939
00:54:25,401 --> 00:54:28,361
Speaker 1: saw you on the road today. And my son said

940
00:54:28,361 --> 00:54:31,161
Speaker 1: to me, oh, look at that card, Dad, what's that

941
00:54:31,321 --> 00:54:33,521
Speaker 1: sticker on the back And he said, and that's when

942
00:54:33,561 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 1: I've pulled up behind you and took a photo. He said,

943
00:54:37,761 --> 00:54:40,361
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about Lisal Smith and the fact

944
00:54:40,361 --> 00:54:44,081
Speaker 1: that she's missing. And I said, okay, you got five minutes.

945
00:54:44,961 --> 00:54:49,001
Speaker 1: So we talked. But what had actually happened was he

946
00:54:49,121 --> 00:54:53,241
Speaker 1: had driven out of his road and he said, in

947
00:54:53,281 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: the ten years that he's lived there, he's never seen

948
00:54:55,481 --> 00:54:59,081
Speaker 1: a rainbow. And he said, so I stopped and took

949
00:54:59,081 --> 00:55:01,041
Speaker 1: a photo of this rainbow, he said. And then when

950
00:55:01,041 --> 00:55:03,921
Speaker 1: I turned the corner and his son had said something

951
00:55:03,961 --> 00:55:06,641
Speaker 1: about my car, he said, I pulled him behind it

952
00:55:07,241 --> 00:55:10,561
Speaker 1: and I saw that. So he asked me if I

953
00:55:10,601 --> 00:55:12,321
Speaker 1: could come in for an interview. He was taking the

954
00:55:12,401 --> 00:55:16,321
Speaker 1: kids to sport on a Saturday, so I went in

955
00:55:16,321 --> 00:55:20,721
Speaker 1: for an interview. And of course I wear rainbow colors

956
00:55:20,801 --> 00:55:24,921
Speaker 1: all the time. My grandchildren call me rainbow Nana. He said,

957
00:55:25,441 --> 00:55:28,241
Speaker 1: it's so incredible. He said, I've lived in that street

958
00:55:28,241 --> 00:55:31,041
Speaker 1: for ten years and I've never seen a rainbow. And

959
00:55:31,081 --> 00:55:33,241
Speaker 1: he said, now look at you here, he said, and

960
00:55:33,241 --> 00:55:36,561
Speaker 1: you're dressed in rainbows. He said, we were meant to

961
00:55:36,601 --> 00:55:42,321
Speaker 1: have this conversation. So you know, whether you're religious or spiritual,

962
00:55:42,521 --> 00:55:46,161
Speaker 1: or you believe the universes, whatever, you can't tell me

963
00:55:46,281 --> 00:55:50,921
Speaker 1: that that rainbow wasn't organized in such a way that

964
00:55:51,361 --> 00:55:55,561
Speaker 1: Ben Fordham would interview me. So it was pretty crazy.

965
00:55:55,961 --> 00:55:59,801
Speaker 3: Yeah, And look, we met in October in person. I've

966
00:55:59,841 --> 00:56:03,801
Speaker 3: been following Lisa's story for years, but we did meet

967
00:56:03,881 --> 00:56:06,761
Speaker 3: in person in Melbourne in October last year.

968
00:56:07,241 --> 00:56:08,601
Speaker 1: And I was wearing rainbows.

969
00:56:08,801 --> 00:56:11,961
Speaker 3: You were covered in rainbows, leaving your ear rings and everything,

970
00:56:11,961 --> 00:56:14,441
Speaker 3: and I was like, wow, you just look like someone

971
00:56:14,481 --> 00:56:16,641
Speaker 3: I want to talk to, you know, like I want

972
00:56:16,641 --> 00:56:19,801
Speaker 3: to come up and say hi. And you walked up

973
00:56:19,841 --> 00:56:21,441
Speaker 3: to me and you said I need to talk to you,

974
00:56:22,161 --> 00:56:25,201
Speaker 3: and I said, come and let's have a chat. And

975
00:56:25,361 --> 00:56:27,841
Speaker 3: here we are. It's been a hard ride for you.

976
00:56:27,921 --> 00:56:30,801
Speaker 3: I understand, like obviously with Christmas and everything like that.

977
00:56:30,841 --> 00:56:33,521
Speaker 3: We were chatting and you said, I just can't talk

978
00:56:33,681 --> 00:56:35,761
Speaker 3: over that period of time. I just need to have

979
00:56:35,841 --> 00:56:38,601
Speaker 3: some time out. It's a hard hurdle to get over

980
00:56:38,761 --> 00:56:43,161
Speaker 3: every year. And I'm really grateful that you are chatting

981
00:56:43,161 --> 00:56:46,601
Speaker 3: with me today. You're an amazing human. I see a

982
00:56:46,601 --> 00:56:50,561
Speaker 3: lot of energy and good energy that comes from what

983
00:56:50,601 --> 00:56:54,521
Speaker 3: you're doing. And the push that you have to make

984
00:56:54,561 --> 00:56:57,481
Speaker 3: sure that lisa Al is not forgotten. Yeah.

985
00:56:58,201 --> 00:57:01,601
Speaker 1: The other thing about that too, is that I had

986
00:57:01,641 --> 00:57:06,001
Speaker 1: actually come down to a babysit, a dog and a

987
00:57:06,041 --> 00:57:08,601
Speaker 1: property of a friend of a friend of mine, and

988
00:57:09,481 --> 00:57:12,561
Speaker 1: it just happened that leave a light on. We're having

989
00:57:12,601 --> 00:57:14,361
Speaker 1: it the week I was down here.

990
00:57:14,601 --> 00:57:15,641
Speaker 3: Yeah, perfect again.

991
00:57:16,041 --> 00:57:19,121
Speaker 1: You know, like, had this lady decided to go a

992
00:57:19,121 --> 00:57:21,761
Speaker 1: week earlier or a week later, I wouldn't have been

993
00:57:21,801 --> 00:57:26,081
Speaker 1: able to attend anyway. So yeah, there's coincidences, But you know,

994
00:57:26,241 --> 00:57:30,841
Speaker 1: I just think sometimes we're guided to places that we

995
00:57:32,001 --> 00:57:36,601
Speaker 1: normally wouldn't be at but were important that we were there.

996
00:57:37,841 --> 00:57:40,681
Speaker 3: Sandy, I always liked to end these episodes by asking

997
00:57:40,761 --> 00:57:45,041
Speaker 3: my guests, why the missing matter? Can you share with us?

998
00:57:45,321 --> 00:57:46,961
Speaker 3: Or why lease all matters?

999
00:57:50,641 --> 00:57:56,521
Speaker 1: She matters because she's my daughter. She matters because she

1000
00:57:56,721 --> 00:57:59,921
Speaker 1: was loved or she is loved, not was loved, she

1001
00:58:00,121 --> 00:58:06,081
Speaker 1: is loved. She's missed. You know, her life life mattered,

1002
00:58:07,481 --> 00:58:12,361
Speaker 1: Everything she did mattered, and there's no filling that void.

1003
00:58:14,561 --> 00:58:19,761
Speaker 1: She matters, That's basical, you know. I mean you could

1004
00:58:19,921 --> 00:58:23,401
Speaker 1: flower it up and everything, but she matters because she

1005
00:58:23,601 --> 00:58:27,641
Speaker 1: is That's the simple answer.

1006
00:58:35,601 --> 00:58:38,321
Speaker 2: In the next episode of The Missing Matter, Sal speaks

1007
00:58:38,321 --> 00:58:42,721
Speaker 2: with Graham Crowley. Graham spent years inside the Queensland Police

1008
00:58:42,801 --> 00:58:46,361
Speaker 2: before turning his attention to examining some of Australia's most

1009
00:58:46,361 --> 00:58:48,361
Speaker 2: controversial criminal cases.

1010
00:58:49,441 --> 00:58:50,121
Speaker 1: When you pull a.

1011
00:58:50,081 --> 00:58:53,001
Speaker 4: Brief apart, you're possibly going to find something wrong with it.

1012
00:58:53,081 --> 00:58:56,401
Speaker 2: You know, cases where the story and the evidence behind

1013
00:58:56,441 --> 00:58:57,921
Speaker 2: it deserve a second look.

1014
00:58:58,481 --> 00:59:02,841
Speaker 4: I just did not realize that I would find significant

1015
00:59:02,841 --> 00:59:08,281
Speaker 4: problems with virtually free piece of evidence that the Crown

1016
00:59:08,801 --> 00:59:10,041
Speaker 4: presented at the trot.

1017
00:59:10,841 --> 00:59:14,681
Speaker 2: Graham's built a reputation for pouring over the details, the timelines,

1018
00:59:14,761 --> 00:59:17,801
Speaker 2: the decisions and the pieces that sometimes don't quite fit.

1019
00:59:18,801 --> 00:59:22,761
Speaker 4: Freeny's evidence was essentially that the murder did not happen

1020
00:59:23,161 --> 00:59:25,281
Speaker 4: in the house of Ela Street, go Goodment, and that

1021
00:59:25,721 --> 00:59:29,481
Speaker 4: Leanne's body had never been in the boot of Stafford's car.

1022
00:59:31,201 --> 00:59:33,041
Speaker 2: That's next time on The Missing Matter.