WEBVTT - Speak the truth, pay the price: Australia's broken whistleblower laws 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:03.280 The Commission of war crimes in Afghanistan we know about 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:06.640 and have been out of call for action because people 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:07.400 spoke up. 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:11.680 Tonight, a member of the SAS is in custody, refused 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.880 bail and charged with war crimes over the death of 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:16.720 a civilian in Afghanistan. 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:20.400 I often think of the Banking Royal Commission. Every Australian 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.079 with a bank account or credit card is better off 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.040 because people like Jeff Morris doctor ben Coe spoke up. 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:31.640 Hundreds of millions of dollars in fees for those service companies, 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:37.680 misleading and obstructing regulators, the charging of dead people, the 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.280 sale knowingly of worthless insurance policies. 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:45.519 Some of the biggest scandals in Australian history robodebt, dodgy 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:49.600 ato debt collectors and alleged war crimes, could have stayed 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:50.680 hidden forever. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.240 So many of the injustices we know about and have 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:56.800 been able to call for action and justice on have 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.960 only come to light because courageous Australians spoke up. 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:02.960 But the lives of those Australians are too often left 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:07.400 in ruins because of weak whistleblower protection laws. The result 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.959 is others decide the cost isn't worth it, and we 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:11.720 all lose. 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.440 When people stay silent about wrongdoing, injustice is allowed to 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:22.720 continue and it's impossible to call for accountability and change. 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:28.319 I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven Am Today 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:31.840 journalist and lawyer Karen Pender on what's wrong with our 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:36.000 whistleblower laws and why we should protect those who bravely 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:50.000 speak up. It's Friday, February twenty seven. Whistleblowers often face 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.120 an inherent risk when they're choosing to speak out, especially 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:57.040 in high profile national cases. So could you tell us 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.000 about the people who've ultimately paid the price for coming forward. 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:02.680 We've seen in recent years a number of high profile 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.280 prosecutions people like Richard Boyle or Bernard Callery Witness K, 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.480 all of whom were dragged through the court system for 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.119 their role in speaking up about wrongdoing. 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.960 A secret hearing has begun in the spy case against 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:19.320 Camber lawyer Bernard Caleary, who's been charged with conspiring with 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.560 former senior intelligence officer Witness K to reveal details of 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.560 an Australian spying operation in East teamwork. 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:30.760 I'm charged with conspiring with Witness K, my client, whom 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:33.239 I interviewed in the same way I have for forty 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.600 nearly fifty years, So it means I've conspired with every 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:37.520 client I've ever had. 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.200 Right now, there's a whistleblower, David McBride, who remains in prison. 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:42.079 You've been in. 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.239 Jail now for nearly six months. 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.480 How's it been It's been hard. I'm not going to 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:51.280 say it hasn't been hard. I think the important point though, 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:53.400 is that they are the tip of the iceberg. They are, 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:57.600 of course the most visible examples of injustices faced by whistleblowers, 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.680 but there are many other people who when they speak 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:05.480 up at work about wrongdoing, suffer retaliation, whether that's sort 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:09.080 of just being mistreated at work, or losing their job, 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.840 or finding it impossible to get work elsewhere in their industry, 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.200 to facing legal threats, facing lawsuits and then in the 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:19.120 ultimate case, facing prosecution. 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:24.080 So you helped launch Australia's first dedicated whistleblower legal service 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.360 in twenty twenty three. What was that moment where you 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.280 thought we have to do this. 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:33.680 Australia was once a world leader in laws to protect whistleblowers, 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.840 but really fell behind the rest of the world in 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:41.480 failing to turn those paper rights into practical protections, and 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.240 we think a big cause for that was the absence 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.560 of specialist legal support. If whistle of bows can't get 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:51.840 access to specialized pro bono legal support, those rights don't 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:56.080 really work. Already, since we launched, we've been contacted by 0:03:56.120 --> 0:04:00.480 over six hundred whistleblowers, We've advised over two hundred people 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:04.040 seeking our help, and we've represented over fifty clients on 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:07.960 an ongoing basis. But I think the message we're seeing 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.240 from our client base is that anyone could become a whistleblower. 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:14.160 Any person could go to work tomorrow and see something 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:18.159 wrong and speak up and hopefully that would all go well. 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.640 But unfortunately, the experience we know from the research and 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.600 from our own client experience is that too many people 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:26.680 suffer when they speak up. And that's why it's so 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.320 important that people can access the support and dedicated legal 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:31.279 expertise they need. 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:34.479 You said, you've had six hundred people come to you, 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.520 but you're only working on about fifty cases. Is that 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.800 because some people go through the process of wanting to 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.719 expose something, but in the end they decide that the 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:45.159 personal cost is too great. 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:50.160 Certainly that does happen now we are a small, predominantly 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:54.600 filanthropically funded charity. We can't help everyone. We don't have 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.320 the resources to help everyone, and so there's a still 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.039 notwithstanding our best efforts and access to justice have but 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:03.840 it's certainly the case that people say to us they 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.320 are scared of speaking up. The high profile prosecutions and 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:12.000 lawsuits against whistleblowers have had a chilling effect. Better laws, 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:16.960 better culture, better support should mean that Australians can speak 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.200 up about wrongdoing and know they'll be heard and know 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:21.560 that action will be taken. 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.680 Now, there are laws that are meant to protect whistleblowers 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.880 from being punished for exposing misconduct at work. So why 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:31.440 is it that you think they're failing and what needs 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:32.159 to change. 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.400 It's not just us that think those laws are not working. 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.719 The government has accepted that federal public sector whistle blowing 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:39.600 laws aren't working. 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.600 The Albanezi government is committed to restoring trust and integrity 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:47.320 to government and an effective public sector whistle blowing framework 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:48.919 is essential to achieving this. 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:54.919 Including there's currently a review into federal private sector whistleblowing 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.880 laws as well at a state and territory level. We've 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.160 got a real patchwork and at a federal level. As 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.520 I mentioned, we've not only got the main two laws 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.040 for public servants and for the private sector, we've also 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.840 got nine different federal whistle blowing laws. Some people are 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.800 covered by none, some people are covered by several of those, 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:15.520 and all of them are different and all of them 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.080 are inconsistent. So it's a bit of a legal mind field. 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.080 But we know that those laws need to change. The 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.320 government has admitted as much. We've been calling for some 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.560 time now for the establishment of a federal whistle blower 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.440 Protection Authority to try and fill that gap, to try 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.839 and give people the support they need to oversee and 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:39.800 enforce these laws. But we haven't seen the robust and 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:41.760 courageous law reform that we. 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:49.800 Need coming up scandals and cover ups Australia should know 0:06:49.880 --> 0:07:01.560 about but doesn't. 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.680 Today the Attorney General has announced consultation on stage two 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:10.440 of public sector whistleblower reforms. That will be important going forward. 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:14.640 As I indicated that would come forward here. 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:18.080 In the Albanzi government, it's been talking about improving whistleblower 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.640 protections since it took office in twenty twenty two. They 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.080 campaigned on it and promised immediate action. So what have 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:25.720 they done. 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.280 There have been some small changes to some federal whistlebloing 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:33.760 laws since the Albanzi government took office. Right now there 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.760 is an exposure draft for much more substantial, wide ranging 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:41.280 reform to our federal public sector whistleblowing laws that was 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.600 released in September of last year. We are waiting for 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.800 the government to act. The government talks a good game 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:52.360 on protecting whistleblowers. Unfortunately, under the government's watch we've seen 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.600 these high profile prosecutions continue. They were started under the 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:57.679 last government, they've continued under this government. 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:02.880 The Member for Clark has concerns about the prosecution of 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.760 mister David McBride and mister Richard Boyle. As I told 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.800 the House yesterday in response to a question from the 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.720 Member for Clark, I am strongly of the view that 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:17.600 integrity and the rule of law are central to Australia's 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:19.120 criminal justice arrangements. 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.120 Don't get me wrong. Some changes that have already introduced 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:25.240 have been important, and some of the proposed changes would 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:29.920 go some way towards better protecting whistleblowers. The government has proposed, 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.840 for example, under the federal Public Sector Law, to establish 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.720 a whistle blowing Ombardsman within the Commonwealth obitdsman that would 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.120 go some way towards addressing some of the gaps. But 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.600 it is not an independent whistleblower protection authority that we 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.360 think Australia needs and would follow in the footsteps of 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.840 a number of other countries. We've got whistleblowing ombardsmen and 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.640 whistle blowing authorities around the world in different places. We 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:58.080 need ambition from this government. There's law forming train. It's 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:00.920 not happening fast enough and it's not ambitious enough. 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.280 Is there an argument though, that while some whistleblowers should 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:09.640 be protected, that there is some information that's sensitive, classified 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.640 government or intelligence information that should be kept secret to 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:15.800 protect Australia's national interest. 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.920 Of Course, no one is calling for cut blanche transparency, 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:23.760 transparency or costs. Of Course, some national security information should 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:28.319 be kept secret, and there's a necessary reason for that secrecy. 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.160 The problem is not getting the balance right. The problem 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.800 is Australia has swung so far towards secrecy that it's 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:39.680 undermining our democracy. Australia at a federal level has almost 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.400 a thousand secrecy offenses on the books. Again, the government 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.360 has accepted that's too many. The Government's accepted. There's major 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:50.480 problems with that, And in relation to national security whistle blowing, 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.920 there are some complex issues there and where you draw 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.920 the line, reasonable minds may differ, but at the moment 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.240 those lines are drawn in such a way that it's 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.480 impossible for national security whistleblowers to speak up. 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.760 Kieran, do you have any sense of how many scandals 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.080 or cover ups or injustices you think going on in 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:14.000 this country right now hidden away because people who may 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:16.840 want to blow the whistle have seen what's happened to 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.640 people like David McBride, who as we know, is currently 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.280 serving five years in jail, and they're too scared to 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:23.880 come forward. 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.679 Yes, there are many things that would shock your listeners 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:34.280 that are currently not coming into the public domain. I 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.800 have clients who make the decision not to speak up 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.920 because of the risks they know they face, and it 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:46.240 is very difficult for people to raise concerns about wrongdoing, 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.760 you know, I think it's important to say that it's 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.400 not as if most whistleblowers want to go and be 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.560 on the front page of the newspaper straight away. Most people, 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.760 in most circumstances to what the law says is the 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.880 right thing they speak up in internally, nothing happens. They 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:06.320 speak up to a regulator, nothing happens. Typically, the public whistleblime, 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.720 which is obviously the most prominent, is the last resort. 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:14.080 We've had lots of success helping people resolve concerns internally, 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.560 resolve concerns with regulators, with antiruption bodies and so on. 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.679 But is certainly the case that there's too much secrecy 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.440 in Australia. There's not enough transparency. It's too hard to 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.320 be a whistleblower in Australia right now. We are doing 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.600 all we can to try and make it less hard. 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:31.880 We need the government to do more. 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.600 Kieran, thanks so much for speaking with us. 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:37.480 I appreciate it. 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.559 Also in the news, the Treasurer has flagged that the 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:55.720 upcoming federal budget will include belt tightening amid higher than 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.560 expected inflation. The Reserve Bank is expected to hold rate 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.559 after lifting them to three point eighty five percent in February, 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:06.920 although the latest inflation figures have increased the risk of 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:11.480 another rise. Jim Chalmers says that inflationary pressure is driving 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:16.959 the need for additional budget savings, and Trade Minister Don 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.040 Farrell says the United States will keep at ten percent 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:23.520 tariff on Australian goods. The US Supreme Court has ruled 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:27.720 parts of the legal mechanism used to impose tariffs were unlawful, 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:32.120 prompting speculation the administration would reset rates and lift the 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:36.400 global baseline to fifteen percent. Farrell says US officials have 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.960 now confirmed Australia won't face an increase, but the ten 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.760 percent tariff on Australian exports will remain in place while 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:48.160 the US administration responds to the ruling. I'm Nicole Johnston. 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.520 This is seven am. Thanks for listening.