WEBVTT - Murray Watt on our broken environmental laws and saying 'yes' to Woodside

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven Am. Murray

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<v Speaker 1>Watt has a big job as federal Environment Minister. He

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<v Speaker 1>has been handpicked by Albanezi to fix Australia's old and

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<v Speaker 1>broken environment laws. It was a brief his predecessor, Tanya

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<v Speaker 1>plebasec failed to achieve with mining interest in Western Australia,

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<v Speaker 1>claiming success when a deal with the Greens was dashed

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<v Speaker 1>by the PM at the last minute. So what will

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<v Speaker 1>be different this time and how does the minister square

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<v Speaker 1>greenlighting new fossil fuel projects? Was his government being elected

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<v Speaker 1>to combat climate change? Today? Environment Minister Murray Watt on

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<v Speaker 1>Australia's broken laws and why he said yes to Woodside.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Monday, September one. Minister, thanks for speaking with me.

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<v Speaker 1>One of your first acts as Environment Minister was to

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<v Speaker 1>approve the extension of Woodside' Store West Shelf project out

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<v Speaker 1>to twenty seventy, effectively adding four billion tons of climate

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<v Speaker 1>pollution or a decade of emissions. Do you think that

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<v Speaker 1>decision was in line with what people of Australia elected

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<v Speaker 1>your government to do.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, I really welcome the opportunity to say about this decision.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a really good opportunity to explain what the basis

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<v Speaker 2>of that decision was and what it wasn't. I understand

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<v Speaker 2>that when that decision was made, there were many people

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<v Speaker 2>who looked at it and questioned how we could be

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<v Speaker 2>approving a project like that when you're thinking about greenhouse

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<v Speaker 2>emissions and climate change. But the decision I was required

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<v Speaker 2>to make under Australia's environmental law was what would the

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<v Speaker 2>impact of extending that gas plant be on the rock Art.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been at a little bit of a disadvantage, I guess,

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<v Speaker 2>in that what I've done so far is issue a

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<v Speaker 2>proposed decision, but I haven't been in a position to

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<v Speaker 2>talk publicly about the conditions that I attached to that decision.

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<v Speaker 2>But what I did say at the time was that

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<v Speaker 2>I had imposed a number of strong conditions, particularly in

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<v Speaker 2>relation to air emission levels and what impact they would

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<v Speaker 2>have on the rock Art. I can understand why people

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<v Speaker 2>looked at that decision and wondered why wasn't I taking

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<v Speaker 2>into account climate change or greenhouse emissions or other things.

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<v Speaker 2>But under the Act, the decision I had to make

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<v Speaker 2>was about the impact of the Rock Art. The only

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<v Speaker 2>other thing I'd say, though, and again this probably hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>been ventilated as much as it should be, is that

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<v Speaker 2>people shouldn't fear that we are making decisions about those

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<v Speaker 2>kinds of projects without something being done regarding their emissions levels.

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<v Speaker 2>And you might remember in our first term, our government

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<v Speaker 2>strengthened what was what's known as the Safeguard's Mechanism, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's a policy which requires the heaviest emitting projects in

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<v Speaker 2>the country, whether it be coal mines, smelters, other industrial development,

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<v Speaker 2>they're required to reduce their emissions every single year, their

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<v Speaker 2>greenhouse emissions, and this project is already subject to that requirement.

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<v Speaker 2>So leaving aside what I've made a decision about regarding

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<v Speaker 2>the Rocker, this project is already required to reduce its

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<v Speaker 2>greenhouse emissions by five percent a year and to reach

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<v Speaker 2>net zero by twenty fifty. So I guess the way

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<v Speaker 2>we're trying to come up these things is make the

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<v Speaker 2>decisions under environmental law that need to be made applying

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<v Speaker 2>the law, and at the same time, in parallel, deal

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<v Speaker 2>with the greenhouse missions emissions through the Safeguard's Mechanism and

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<v Speaker 2>other policies that we've got in place.

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<v Speaker 1>You've talked about the safeguard mechanism, but those rules only

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<v Speaker 1>apply to emissions from drilling, floor and processing gas at

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<v Speaker 1>the time, not emissions from when the fuel is actually burned,

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<v Speaker 1>whether that's here overseas. Numerous climate bodies have pointed out

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<v Speaker 1>the inadequacy of the safeguard mechanism in curbing emissions. Is

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<v Speaker 1>it a way for the government to look like it's

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<v Speaker 1>acting while allowing the fossil fuel industry to continue.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess this gets us into that debate about

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<v Speaker 2>scope one, scope too, Scope three emissions, which risks getting

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<v Speaker 2>into a bit too much jargon at this time of

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<v Speaker 2>the morning. But I guess the way the world has

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<v Speaker 2>approached dealing with climate change and greenhouse emissions, particularly through

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<v Speaker 2>the Paris Agreement, is to say that every country who's

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<v Speaker 2>a signatory to that agreement needs to reduce the emissions

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<v Speaker 2>that it emits in their own country. And what that

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<v Speaker 2>means is that we're responsible as a country for the

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<v Speaker 2>emissions emitted in Australia. And that picks up things like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the direct emissions from a plant like this,

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<v Speaker 2>or from a coal mine in its operation, or from

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<v Speaker 2>the cars that we drive, all of those kinds of things.

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<v Speaker 2>And then when it comes to the emissions generated from

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<v Speaker 2>products that we produce and sell overseas, those emissions need

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<v Speaker 2>to be managed by the country that buys those products

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<v Speaker 2>and burns that fuel. And one way of thinking about

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<v Speaker 2>it is that for all of those cars that Australians

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<v Speaker 2>buy and use that are made in Japan or South Korea,

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<v Speaker 2>the emissions that come from those cars get counted towards

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<v Speaker 2>our emissions budget here in Australia, not Japan's and careers.

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<v Speaker 2>And similarly, the emissions that are generated from gas or

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<v Speaker 2>coal that we export are counted against the budgets for

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<v Speaker 2>emissions of those countries, not against ours. I guess that's

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<v Speaker 2>one of the reasons why as a government we've taken

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<v Speaker 2>so many steps to try to reduce the emissions we

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<v Speaker 2>are producing through our own burning of fossil fuels here

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<v Speaker 2>in Australia, and we're working with other countries and welcome

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<v Speaker 2>them and doing the same in their own countries as well.

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<v Speaker 1>If we just stick with woodside for one moment, in particular,

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<v Speaker 1>the Marajugo Cultural landscape, this is an area that was

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<v Speaker 1>recently granted World Heritage status by UNESCO. Is it possible

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<v Speaker 1>to protect these PETROC lists from woodside emissions.

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<v Speaker 2>We think it is, and more importantly, that's what the

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<v Speaker 2>scientific evidence tells us. You may have seen that I

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<v Speaker 2>participated in securing that nomination of the Murjub Cultural Landscape

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<v Speaker 2>to get it World Heritage listing, which is a fantastic thing,

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<v Speaker 2>not just for Western Australia, but of course the traditional

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<v Speaker 2>owners of that land who led that nomination. And what

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<v Speaker 2>the scientific evidence told us was that the emissions being

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<v Speaker 2>created by projects there now are unlikely to be having

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<v Speaker 2>an impact on that rock rt there certainly has been,

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<v Speaker 2>it would seem an impact from previous industrial activity. There

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<v Speaker 2>was a pretty dirty power station operating there at one

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<v Speaker 2>point in time, and it's quite likely that the emissions

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<v Speaker 2>from that power station were having an impact. Thankfully that's

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<v Speaker 2>not happening anymore, and companies that are operating other facilities

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<v Speaker 2>in that area I know have been forced and have

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<v Speaker 2>decided to reduce their emissions themselves. So the emissions that

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<v Speaker 2>we're seeing at the moment do not appear to be

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<v Speaker 2>causing an impact on the rock cart.

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<v Speaker 3>But yeah, we're.

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<v Speaker 2>Confident that the measures that are being put in place

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<v Speaker 2>and any conditions that I attached to these sorts of

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<v Speaker 2>approvals will be able to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>But isn't there a significant disagreement in the scientific and

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<v Speaker 1>expert evidence around the protection of the petroglypse.

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<v Speaker 3>There are different views about this.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll acknowledge that, and you may have seen that at

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<v Speaker 2>the time of the proposed decision on the Northwest Shelf project,

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<v Speaker 2>there were some experts and academics who suggested that there

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<v Speaker 2>would be an impact. I don't want to get into

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<v Speaker 2>sort of insulting different people's qualifications, but the reality is

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<v Speaker 2>that the geological and engineering experts who are best qualified

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<v Speaker 2>to measure these sorts of impacts were clear.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up how the government justifies greenlighting new fossil fuel projects.

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<v Speaker 1>Right now, you're working on new federal environmental laws. This

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<v Speaker 1>has been a long time coming. Can you just explain

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<v Speaker 1>why they need fixing?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is probably my biggest priority in this portfolio,

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<v Speaker 2>and as you say, there's been a lot of talk

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<v Speaker 2>for a long time about fixing these laws if you like.

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<v Speaker 2>The blueprint that we're working towards for these reforms is

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<v Speaker 2>the review and recommendations that were provided by Professor Graham

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<v Speaker 2>Samuel for the former government nearly five years ago. And

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<v Speaker 2>what Graham found in his report was that our current

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<v Speaker 2>national environmental laws are fundamentally broken. They're not working for

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<v Speaker 2>the environment and they're not working for business either, in

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<v Speaker 2>the sense that we've got a very cumbersome process in

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<v Speaker 2>place to get projects assessed and approved. So it's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of failing in both ways. And so what we want

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<v Speaker 2>to do is put in place environmental laws that are

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<v Speaker 2>contend You know, this Act is nearly twenty years I

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<v Speaker 2>think probably over twenty years old and doesn't meet the

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<v Speaker 2>moment in terms of what we need. And what we

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<v Speaker 2>want to do is put in place some laws that

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<v Speaker 2>do work for the environment and do work for business,

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<v Speaker 2>and we think you can achieve both of those things.

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<v Speaker 1>You've taken over the portfolio from Tenure Plebisek, who got

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<v Speaker 1>very close to a deal with the Greens regarding Australia's

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<v Speaker 1>environmental laws before Anthony Alberezi stopped them from going ahead.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been wildly reported that that was to help labor

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<v Speaker 1>electorally in wr way. So how have you reshaped the

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<v Speaker 1>laws to finally be able to get them through?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I've obviously seen that suggesting reported I

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't necessarily agree that that's what happened, but let's leave

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<v Speaker 2>that to the side.

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<v Speaker 3>That's age in history. Look, I think I really respect.

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<v Speaker 2>The effort that Tanya put into these reforms, along with

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<v Speaker 2>the incredible other achievements she had as the Environment Minister.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I think everyone was disappointed that we weren't

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<v Speaker 2>able to secure agreement to those changes.

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<v Speaker 3>Before the election.

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<v Speaker 2>The question was how am I going about it differently

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<v Speaker 2>and sort of what makes me feel that things will

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<v Speaker 2>be different. I guess in the early discussions I was

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<v Speaker 2>having with stakeholders after becoming the minister, it was clear

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<v Speaker 2>to me that our best chance of getting a bill

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<v Speaker 2>through the Senate with the broadest possible coalition of support

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<v Speaker 2>for it outside the Parliament would be to try to

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<v Speaker 2>deal with a broad range of issues rather than break

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<v Speaker 2>it up as we had attempted to do before. And

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<v Speaker 2>so what that means in practical terms is that the

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<v Speaker 2>way I see these reforms is that they're built on

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<v Speaker 2>three pillars. Firstly, stronger environmental protections, secondly, quicker and more

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<v Speaker 2>efficient approvals processes, and thirdly more transparency when it comes

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<v Speaker 2>to environmental decisions. And what I'm finding talking to stakeholders

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<v Speaker 2>is that people do support that broader approach where we

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<v Speaker 2>try to deal with a full range of issues rather

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<v Speaker 2>than dealing with some and with people having reservations about

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<v Speaker 2>what might yet be coming. The other thing I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's really changed, of course, is the political climate in

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<v Speaker 2>it Australia, where now through the election we've obviously got

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<v Speaker 2>a large majority in the House of Representatives.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that there's a level of good will.

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<v Speaker 2>Across the community towards working with the government to get

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<v Speaker 2>this done. So, you know, I wouldn't want to pretend

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<v Speaker 2>that everything is resolved. This will be one of those

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<v Speaker 2>bills that continues being negotiated until the minute it's passed.

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<v Speaker 3>But I find that there is.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of good will there, whether you're an environmental

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<v Speaker 2>group or a mining company to making change, because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the alternative we have is to stick with the laws

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<v Speaker 2>that we've got at the moment, and they're not working

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<v Speaker 2>for anyone.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if we talk about the evolution of this change,

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<v Speaker 1>Minister Tenure PLEBI six original plan was to include mandatory

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<v Speaker 1>consideration of climate change and environmental planning. As the new

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<v Speaker 1>law is going to be a watered down version of

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<v Speaker 1>what your government had originally a plan.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the issue of what we do around climate change

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<v Speaker 2>in this legislation is something that we're still consulting on

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<v Speaker 2>and we haven't reached a final decision on that. There's

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<v Speaker 2>probably half a dozen issues, I would say this being

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<v Speaker 2>one of them where there's still strong feelings on both

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<v Speaker 2>side of it, and we've got to try and hammer

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<v Speaker 2>out some sort of an arrangement. Really, what I said

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<v Speaker 2>to you before, I think, was that we do see

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<v Speaker 2>Graham Samuel's report as a bit of a blueprint for

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<v Speaker 2>these reforms. And if you have a look at what

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<v Speaker 2>he said on this point, he explicitly ruled out and

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<v Speaker 2>didn't recommend what's become known as a climate trigger. And

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<v Speaker 2>what he recommended was that project proponents, whether they be

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<v Speaker 2>mining companies or property developers, whoever they might be, should

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<v Speaker 2>be required to disclose the emissions that their project will

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<v Speaker 2>create and provide what's known as an abatement plan, so

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<v Speaker 2>a plan to reduce their emissions as a condition of

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<v Speaker 2>their application and a condition of approval. And I would say,

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<v Speaker 2>at this point in time, the government is leaning more

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<v Speaker 2>towards that than a climate trigger. And this sort of

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<v Speaker 2>comes back to the earlier discussion we were having about

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<v Speaker 2>the Northwest Shelf, which is what Graham said was of course,

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<v Speaker 2>reducing emissions matters a lot, and it matters for the environment,

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<v Speaker 2>but the government has chosen to pursue that through a

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<v Speaker 2>range of climate related measures like the Safeguard's mechanism, like

0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:20.640
<v Speaker 2>our legislative targets to reduce emissions, like our new standards

0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.640
<v Speaker 2>to reduce emissions from cars, a whole range of measures

0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.920
<v Speaker 2>that we've done in the climate side of things, And

0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.520
<v Speaker 2>his view was that it didn't really make a lot

0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 2>of sense to duplicate those kind of requirements in our

0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:34.920
<v Speaker 2>environmental legislation.

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<v Speaker 3>One of the aims of this legislation, from.

0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.520
<v Speaker 2>The point of view of quicker Approvals, is to reduce

0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:42.959
<v Speaker 2>the level of duplication we have in the system between

0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:45.880
<v Speaker 2>states and the federal government. And if one of the

0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.679
<v Speaker 2>objectives of this legislation is to reduce duplication, it probably

0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.240
<v Speaker 2>doesn't make a lot of sense to duplicate things that

0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.520
<v Speaker 2>we're doing in the climate space in this act as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Mister South Australia is currently experiencing a huge a bloom

0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.760
<v Speaker 1>which has caused significant and devastating loss of some of

0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.520
<v Speaker 1>Australia's rarest marine life and that was caused, of course,

0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:08.760
<v Speaker 1>by the fact that the ocean's temperature is rising, which

0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:11.200
<v Speaker 1>is caused by climate change, which is caused by the

0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:15.720
<v Speaker 1>fossil fuel industry. Your government continues to approve fossil fuel projects.

0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:18.560
<v Speaker 1>So is that going to change in the future. Are

0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:20.920
<v Speaker 1>we going to see the government continue to green light

0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:21.960
<v Speaker 1>fossil fuel projects?

0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:25.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, first, can I say, you know, I absolutely acknowledge

0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.200
<v Speaker 2>the total devastation of the marine environment in a large

0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.960
<v Speaker 2>part of South Australia from this our will bloom and

0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.320
<v Speaker 2>you would have seen. I've been down there twice myself,

0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:36.240
<v Speaker 2>The Prime Minister has been down to inspect it, and

0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.880
<v Speaker 2>we're jointly funding a package of support with the South

0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.320
<v Speaker 2>Australian government. But unfortunately no one knows for sure how

0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.400
<v Speaker 2>long this is going to go for, and that's why

0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:45.240
<v Speaker 2>we need to keep.

0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:47.160
<v Speaker 3>Working on the impacts of it.

0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, you would be aware that our government doesn't

0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.560
<v Speaker 2>have a policy of stopping colon gas projects from happening.

0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.960
<v Speaker 2>What we've chosen to do was to participate through that

0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.840
<v Speaker 2>Paris Agreement process with a range of other countries around

0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.640
<v Speaker 2>the world to agree to reduce our own missions, particularly

0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.200
<v Speaker 2>here at home. You be aware that before too long

0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.080
<v Speaker 2>we'll see Chris Bowen as the Climate Change Minister, come

0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.720
<v Speaker 2>forward with new emissions reduction targets which will be more

0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:17.840
<v Speaker 2>ambitious than what we've got at the moment. So you know,

0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.600
<v Speaker 2>I think in the end, what we've committed to is

0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:23.320
<v Speaker 2>a policy of reaching net zero by twenty fifty.

0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:24.520
<v Speaker 3>Now.

0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.520
<v Speaker 2>I respect the fact that there are people listening to

0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.440
<v Speaker 2>this program who would like to see us stop fossil

0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.359
<v Speaker 2>fuel production, not approve any more of those sorts of projects.

0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.320
<v Speaker 2>The position we've taken is to reach net zero and

0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.480
<v Speaker 2>what that means is increasing our effort to reduce the

0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:46.280
<v Speaker 2>emissions that we're causing here where we are plowing as

0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.120
<v Speaker 2>much effort as we can into expanding our renewable energy

0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:52.720
<v Speaker 2>sources here. So you know, I can assure you listeners

0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.120
<v Speaker 2>that we do not only take climate change seriously, but

0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.320
<v Speaker 2>want to do our bit as part of the world

0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.360
<v Speaker 2>to reduce our emissions undertaking all those kinds of things

0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:01.800
<v Speaker 2>as well.

0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:05.640
<v Speaker 1>Minister, thank you so much for coming on seven am.

0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:06.920
<v Speaker 3>No worries Daniel Good to talk.

0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.080
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, violent clashes broke out in Melbourne

0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.640
<v Speaker 1>on Sunday as the March for Australia. A rally led

0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:27.440
<v Speaker 1>by neo Nazis and far right groups moved through the CBD.

0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.080
<v Speaker 1>A prominent neo Nazi was applauded after delivering a speech

0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.080
<v Speaker 1>in the steps of Parliament, while police used pepper spray

0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:38.840
<v Speaker 1>to separate opposing groups, including pro Palestinian and anti fascist demonstrators.

0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.040
<v Speaker 1>The rallies, held in cities across the country were attended

0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.560
<v Speaker 1>by politicians including Pauline Hansen and Bob Cattera, and have

0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:49.480
<v Speaker 1>been condemned by government ministers. Victoria's Premier j Justina Allen

0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:51.840
<v Speaker 1>said no one who has ever tried to divide this

0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.400
<v Speaker 1>country has succeeded because the promise of multiculturalism is so

0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:59.760
<v Speaker 1>much stronger. And the search for accused government Desi Freeman

0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:02.920
<v Speaker 1>has entered its sixth day, with police charging a sixty

0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.560
<v Speaker 1>one year old man in Bright was possessing an imitation

0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:09.560
<v Speaker 1>firearm and cannabis. Officers are investigating whether the man has

0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.399
<v Speaker 1>links to Freeman, who's wanted over the fatal shootings, or

0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.080
<v Speaker 1>two police officers last week. Freeman's wife has urged him

0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.359
<v Speaker 1>to surrender, expressing deep sorrow over the killings and pledging

0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.640
<v Speaker 1>to assist police more than four hundred and fifty officers

0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.119
<v Speaker 1>remained deployed in the alpine region, with Mount Buffalo National

0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.840
<v Speaker 1>Park still closed. That's all from seven am. We'll be

0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:31.479
<v Speaker 1>back tomorrow. Thanks for listening.