Speaker 1: Jason Lawrence on over one hundred.
Speaker 2: We are not alone. The paper are in the house.
Speaker 2: Jason Lawrence, tell me what you know. That's right. We
Speaker 2: like to catch up with the police, who do a
Speaker 2: fine job here in Victoria.
Speaker 3: But we like being on the right side of the law, Jace.
Speaker 3: We love the police.
Speaker 2: Seen your Constable Wallohan is joining us this morning. Good morning,
Speaker 2: good morning everyone, Thanks for having me. Now you are
Speaker 2: a police negotiator, yes, sick job.
Speaker 3: Sick job, and you've turned up like fully decked out.
Speaker 4: You're not a proper policeman.
Speaker 3: Many many accessories on there talk us through your you
Speaker 3: get up.
Speaker 1: So the kid I'm wearing is my standard negotiating uniform.
Speaker 1: I didn't bring it in as a gag. It's literally
Speaker 1: I'm on duty and so I may have to deploy
Speaker 1: to something. But we've got a lot of kid We've
Speaker 1: got tasers, we've got radios, we have long arms, we
Speaker 1: have pistol and standard.
Speaker 4: So when you say, like, whatever situation unfolds right now,
Speaker 4: you could be deployed too.
Speaker 1: Yes, at any one stage in Victoria, we have a
Speaker 1: minimum of two negotiators. I'm it with my two partners
Speaker 1: for the day. We can get deployed to kidnapping, hostage situation,
Speaker 1: suicide or crisis intervention and anywhere up to barricades and
Speaker 1: sieges and even a counter terrorism event.
Speaker 3: And so as a negotiator, at what point do you
Speaker 3: get called in?
Speaker 1: We usually get called in by police or law enforcement.
Speaker 1: We don't get called in by members of the public
Speaker 1: via triple zero. So the calls we get are when
Speaker 1: police have tried and they've been unsuccessful, and that's when
Speaker 1: they call us.
Speaker 3: Right, you know it's serious when you're rocking up.
Speaker 1: Usually it is, and it can be. But like any job,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean you can't have a bit of fun
Speaker 1: with it. And it doesn't mean it can't be interesting
Speaker 1: and fascinating.
Speaker 2: And it takes on when you say have fun with it,
Speaker 2: like as in with the person like, hey, come out,
Speaker 2: we've all left, gotcha, No, we're here, we're just hidden
Speaker 2: behind trees.
Speaker 1: Well, I'll give you an example. I was on the
Speaker 1: roof of the counting court. Was a man who had
Speaker 1: a case on and it wasn't going in his favor,
Speaker 1: and so he decided that he wanted to jump. I
Speaker 1: was called out and the judge was talking to him.
Speaker 1: The judge was negotiating. The judge said to me, you're
Speaker 1: only going to make this worse. And I said, well,
Speaker 1: with respect, sir, when I walk into your courtroom, you're
Speaker 1: in charge. Yeah, I am now in charge, and I'm
Speaker 1: going to ask you to step aside. Please. It's time
Speaker 1: for us to have a go. And so I started
Speaker 1: talking to this man and he was an interesting fellow.
Speaker 1: And he said to me, after about three hours, if
Speaker 1: you make me laugh, I will come down and surrender.
Speaker 1: So I gave him a joke.
Speaker 2: What was you going to Jake?
Speaker 1: Now this bear in mind, this is not, you know,
Speaker 1: one from the playbook. No, this is this is a
Speaker 1: daytime joke. But it's your experience may vary. But he
Speaker 1: thought it was funny. So I'll go to you.
Speaker 2: Okay. So I'm on the roof. I've been there for
Speaker 2: how long?
Speaker 1: About three hours?
Speaker 2: Right? Knock knock? Who's there? Dishes? Dishes?
Speaker 1: Who dishes?
Speaker 2: Sean Connery.
Speaker 3: Got him off the root?
Speaker 2: It did?
Speaker 1: It did? And then what's funny?
Speaker 2: Do you think he felt sorry for you?
Speaker 3: I think you did give it a ranch.
Speaker 2: I mean, how do you train for this? Is it
Speaker 2: at home with the wife?
Speaker 1: Well, my beautiful wife is she always says to me,
Speaker 1: you can negotiate hostages, you can negotiate kidnappers, but you
Speaker 1: can't negotiate our two kids.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's that was my next question actually, because like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you've got a couple.
Speaker 1: Of kids, yes, and a wife.
Speaker 3: I don't know what's harder to negotiate with the time.
Speaker 2: Well, the running joke at our place is I sometimes
Speaker 2: do feel like a police hostage negotiator, like trying to
Speaker 2: toalkin eight year old out of a car they've locked
Speaker 2: themselves in the car on the driveway because god forbid,
Speaker 2: I dropped an eminem and he won't come out unless
Speaker 2: I go and buy a new pack.
Speaker 3: But I have a feeling, Jason, that you may not
Speaker 3: keep your cool like a police negotiator because you must
Speaker 3: have to stay so calm. Are there things that just
Speaker 3: make you blow?
Speaker 1: Like yeah, absolutely, Like any sort of policing role. If
Speaker 1: there's anything involving children and anything involving people that can't
Speaker 1: protect themselves, that's going to affect you, that you would
Speaker 1: be You shouldn't be in this job if it doesn't.
Speaker 1: So you just got to find coping strategies. You've got
Speaker 1: to find ways to deal with that and you have
Speaker 1: to find ways to be vulnerable with your colleagues. So
Speaker 1: my mum always said to me, be kind to people
Speaker 1: because everyone is suffering a battle that you know nothing about.
Speaker 1: And I think it's just a nice little line that
Speaker 1: I remember to know that I haven't walked in anyone
Speaker 1: else's shoes, and be kind.
Speaker 3: But do you ever yell? Surely erasive voice.
Speaker 1: I've realized that our bodies are our brains because we
Speaker 1: do a lot of psychology, and we did with psychologists
Speaker 1: a lot, and our brains are attuned to certain frequencies.
Speaker 1: And so I have noticed that yelling at my kids
Speaker 1: is not a good idea. But if you whisper, If
Speaker 1: you whisp at your kids, their brain locks onto that
Speaker 1: frequency and they will.
Speaker 2: Actually I've done that, but it's normally at Westfield. We
Speaker 2: can beg the car and no one's around. I can
Speaker 2: tell you knew Bladdy.
Speaker 3: Listen then let me tell you And does we spring
Speaker 3: work for husbands as well? Oh yeah, okay, no yelling.
Speaker 2: At your back up. If the Sean Connery didn't make
Speaker 2: him laugh, please get down off the roof. Please, Hey
Speaker 2: what movie? No no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: genuine question, what movie? Or TV show would be the
Speaker 2: most realistic, realistic representation of what you do.
Speaker 4: Stingers, phone Box, water Police.
Speaker 2: Like Negotiated was on the other night that movie with
Speaker 2: Kevin Space, that's right, should have back someone else there.
Speaker 1: But there are a few movies that are that are
Speaker 1: very inaccurate. Inside Man with Jens Washington is it very
Speaker 1: inaccurate but very entertaining. So we don't swap ourselves for hostages.
Speaker 1: We don't tape a gun to the back of our
Speaker 1: head and go into a stronghold like die Hard. That's
Speaker 1: you're getting there.
Speaker 2: With Thomas Police a couple of rules, though, you won't
Speaker 2: swap yourself for a hostage. Yes, what about revealing personal
Speaker 2: details about your life?
Speaker 1: That's a really good question. So we call that associations.
Speaker 1: So for example, if you give, so reciprocity is giving
Speaker 1: and giving in return. So by me giving a little
Speaker 1: bit of myself to you, we build a connection and
Speaker 1: realize we're not so different. So that's that's something we're
Speaker 1: actively encouraged. But you have to have your own line
Speaker 1: in the sands. So I'm not going to go up
Speaker 1: to you. I'm not going to tell you know an
Speaker 1: anti social hostile person with a firearm where I live. No,
Speaker 1: we never like that's our currency because even if if
Speaker 1: you're dealing with a really bad person, that person still
Speaker 1: has to trust you. They don't have to like you,
Speaker 1: but they have to trust you, and so trust is
Speaker 1: won by the inch and lost by the mile.
Speaker 4: Lee.
Speaker 2: Here's a question. Say if I barricaded ourselves in the studio, right,
Speaker 2: and so we're not coming out, and I asked for
Speaker 2: food to be sent in, is there like like as
Speaker 2: long as it's nothing dangerous, like, will you send in
Speaker 2: any request?
Speaker 1: Well, it all depends on what your leverage is. So
Speaker 1: if you're inside a room and we don't need that
Speaker 1: room for the day, I'd probably be saying no, Ja wouldn't.
Speaker 2: Try and wade me out. He's take long to I'd
Speaker 2: leave by nine if you'd have the room back by nine.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you hey this morning, our number is
Speaker 2: thirteen twenty four to ten. If you're up for it,
Speaker 2: do you mind if we open the phones and let
Speaker 2: listeners ask questions? Absolutely? Awesome.
Speaker 3: There you're going to negotiate with your child, with your wife, Yes,
Speaker 3: with your boss?
Speaker 2: There you go.
Speaker 3: Yeah, life to negotiate with Jake, So he just talks
Speaker 3: over the top of me and doesn't listen.
Speaker 2: Get some tips if they go, yeah, I you've got
Speaker 2: dramas at home and you want to use Lee's tips,
Speaker 2: give us a ring.
Speaker 1: I want you start.
Speaker 2: Talkers, Jason Lawrence, tell me what's you know? That's right?
Speaker 2: John Us this morning seen you. Constable Alia Wallahan. He
Speaker 2: is a police negotiator and also stars in this week's
Speaker 2: episode of Police Life The Experts. That's right a podcast
Speaker 2: done by Victorious Police. That's a great idea. That's awesome.
Speaker 2: So do you guys showcase different roles in the force
Speaker 2: in the podcast? Yeah.
Speaker 1: It was brought about by wanting to actually say to
Speaker 1: people there are many more things than just working the
Speaker 1: divisional van or doing full patrols in uniform. You can
Speaker 1: do so many things. There's water police, there's forensics, there's
Speaker 1: detective units, there's tactical units.
Speaker 2: And you have a good rig to be on the
Speaker 2: jet skis for the water police.
Speaker 1: I would imagine. So that's why I'm yeah, you know, you.
Speaker 2: Want to look good.
Speaker 3: All the water police aren't getting around with.
Speaker 2: Their top side now on the jet skis.
Speaker 3: They should, No, they're not.
Speaker 2: Okay, Hey, our number is thirteen twenty four to ten.
Speaker 2: Lee is happy to answer any questions. This morning. You're
Speaker 2: a police negotiated We're just having a chat during the
Speaker 2: song before about how long a siege or a hostage
Speaker 2: situation can go on for. What's one of the longest
Speaker 2: you've done.
Speaker 1: So we did one in a place called Snake Valley
Speaker 1: about ten years ago. It went for three four days.
Speaker 3: Wow, An are you on the whole time?
Speaker 2: I was there?
Speaker 1: But not always on duty because you have to sleep,
Speaker 1: you have to rest, and you have to also wonder
Speaker 1: when you're being effective. And I work in a team,
Speaker 1: the most amazing team in Victoria, if.
Speaker 2: Not the world. We're a word.
Speaker 1: Leading organization on negotiating and we do it full time.
Speaker 1: So you share the load and you work collaboratively with
Speaker 1: your colum.
Speaker 2: But is that hard? Like I say, if I'm the
Speaker 2: one with the gun, for example, I built a connection
Speaker 2: with you and now you're like, how I'm going to
Speaker 2: go and have a nap. This is Clint. I don't
Speaker 2: want Clint. I want great chat, a terrible chat.
Speaker 1: Well, that comes down to what you want versus what
Speaker 1: you actually need. And so what you want is different
Speaker 1: to what you need.
Speaker 4: Speaking which do you use the media at all because
Speaker 4: they could be watching their teley, they could be listening
Speaker 4: to their radio.
Speaker 1: We do, and in the old days you were just
Speaker 1: to change someone's phone number, you know, and so that
Speaker 1: they couldn't call out. The average person out has four
Speaker 1: or five six devices of which they can communicate. So
Speaker 1: you need to be engaging. You need to be the
Speaker 1: person that they need, not what they want. Times that
Speaker 1: person might say I want I want a seven forty
Speaker 1: seven and I want two hundred thousand dollars and an
Speaker 1: extra fo they actually.
Speaker 3: Do that say I want a million dollars in helicopter.
Speaker 4: Absolutely no way, because they're chasing well, some are chasing
Speaker 4: fame right because they know they're getting the coverage, they're
Speaker 4: getting the clicks.
Speaker 1: But in the end, what it comes down to is
Speaker 1: you give them what they need and they forget what
Speaker 1: they want. So for example, my child, I want.
Speaker 2: To get a bit of paper.
Speaker 1: My child says I want this lolly, or I want
Speaker 1: this or I want that, And what they actually need
Speaker 1: is a sense of they're seeing you walking around the
Speaker 1: supermarket making decisions and picking up things and they just
Speaker 1: want to do what you're doing, and they need to
Speaker 1: feel part of that so you let them.
Speaker 2: Feel the powering them.
Speaker 1: Yes, give them what they need, not what they want.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I get them to do the shopping and
Speaker 2: I stay Hume, That's what I got out of that.
Speaker 3: So hang on, I know we need some more specifics,
Speaker 3: We need more help because I feel like every parents
Speaker 3: absolutely what you say, Oh darling, why don't you go
Speaker 3: pick out the cereal?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: You involve them in the process, make them feel like
Speaker 1: they're actually part of it. And that's what we do
Speaker 1: it a siege. We involve the person in the process.
Speaker 1: And so how this day ends is entirely up to you.
Speaker 1: You are in control, but the way you think the
Speaker 1: day is going to end is not actually accurate.
Speaker 2: But these are options. So calm, isn't he?
Speaker 3: I know, Lee, could you come and live in my
Speaker 3: house for a wenk?
Speaker 2: I was just thinking, are you going to use this
Speaker 2: tactic on Paul? Paul, you can pick whatever you want
Speaker 2: off the menu of the restaurant I've picked.
Speaker 3: No, But see, I do things like that. I give
Speaker 3: him two options, like an outrageous one that I know
Speaker 3: he's never going to go for, and then the one
Speaker 3: that I want.
Speaker 2: Oh, I thought you mean bringing in a third. Let's
Speaker 2: go to Sarah. I'm thirteen, twenty fourteen. Sarah, you are
Speaker 2: on the line with Lee your chance to probe the paper.
Speaker 2: What's your question?
Speaker 3: Good morning, guys, welcome back, break to your boys, Thank you,
Speaker 3: thank you.
Speaker 1: I've got to do it.
Speaker 3: Eighty eighth C. And Rishi is lying, and it's sort
Speaker 3: of knowing where I mean.
Speaker 1: I respite that all the time, so I'm used to
Speaker 1: now her lying, But it's how do you get them
Speaker 1: to stop?
Speaker 2: How do you spot a line in a hostage negotiation.
Speaker 1: I think what you've got to do is you've got
Speaker 1: to learn how to reward the good and then ignore
Speaker 1: instead of punish the bad. And so what I recommend,
Speaker 1: especially with lying, it does, unfortunately start with us. We
Speaker 1: lie to our kids all the time. We lied about
Speaker 1: We lie about everything. We all lie, don't we, And
Speaker 1: so they it is a learned behavior. It's not something
Speaker 1: that they are born with. They learn it. And so
Speaker 1: I know this is going to sound like a non answer,
Speaker 1: but one of the best ways to do is lead
Speaker 1: by example and show to them. I'm going to tell
Speaker 1: you something now that you're not gonna like. I'm going
Speaker 1: to tell you something that you don't want to hear,
Speaker 1: but it's the truth.
Speaker 2: Your shot.
Speaker 3: Jason is in trouble. God, you lie about everything.
Speaker 2: Don't Isn't he good? Isn't he?
Speaker 3: Jase lies about everything. We're a meeting yesterday and he said,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I've got meetings at the kids' school. And
Speaker 3: I sent him a text saying, you're such a liar,
Speaker 3: I'll do the meeting.
Speaker 2: Well, they wanted to do a zoom meeting.
Speaker 3: It's your own fault that the kids are telling little
Speaker 3: porky pies.
Speaker 2: Well leave that segment went well, eye bloody. Am fascinated
Speaker 2: by your job, and I encourage everyone should check out
Speaker 2: the Victoria Police news podcast. It's called Police Life the Experts.
Speaker 3: I'll be listening to that.
Speaker 2: That is crazy. And thank you very much for all
Speaker 2: the work you guys do. Mate. I know it wouldn't
Speaker 2: be easy, and I can imagine it would be extremely
Speaker 2: hard being on a job for a couple of days
Speaker 2: and then having to go home and just like, how
Speaker 2: do you do that? Walk through the door and just
Speaker 2: park the police job at work and be dad at home.
Speaker 1: I think the important thing is to cherish what you have,
Speaker 1: cherish your family, be honest and vulnerable with them, and because,
Speaker 1: like I said, everyone is fighting a battle that no
Speaker 1: one knows anything about. So it's good to be vulnerable.
Speaker 1: Come home, but don't bring those problems home.
Speaker 3: Yes, he's good, he's very good.
Speaker 2: We thank you very much for coming in.
Speaker 3: We'll call you the next time. Jason, I have an issue.
Speaker 3: You can sort it out.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Guys, you wouldn't mind shooting clan with the
Speaker 2: taser on your way up.
Speaker 3: We love the police.