WEBVTT - Bonus: We Probe The Po Po

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<v Speaker 1>Jason Lawrence on over one hundred.

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<v Speaker 2>We are not alone. The paper are in the house.

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<v Speaker 2>Jason Lawrence, tell me what you know. That's right. We

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<v Speaker 2>like to catch up with the police, who do a

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<v Speaker 2>fine job here in Victoria.

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<v Speaker 3>But we like being on the right side of the law, Jace.

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<v Speaker 3>We love the police.

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<v Speaker 2>Seen your Constable Wallohan is joining us this morning. Good morning,

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<v Speaker 2>good morning everyone, Thanks for having me. Now you are

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<v Speaker 2>a police negotiator, yes, sick job.

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<v Speaker 3>Sick job, and you've turned up like fully decked out.

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<v Speaker 4>You're not a proper policeman.

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<v Speaker 3>Many many accessories on there talk us through your you

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<v Speaker 3>get up.

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<v Speaker 1>So the kid I'm wearing is my standard negotiating uniform.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't bring it in as a gag. It's literally

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<v Speaker 1>I'm on duty and so I may have to deploy

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<v Speaker 1>to something. But we've got a lot of kid We've

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<v Speaker 1>got tasers, we've got radios, we have long arms, we

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<v Speaker 1>have pistol and standard.

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<v Speaker 4>So when you say, like, whatever situation unfolds right now,

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<v Speaker 4>you could be deployed too.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, at any one stage in Victoria, we have a

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<v Speaker 1>minimum of two negotiators. I'm it with my two partners

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<v Speaker 1>for the day. We can get deployed to kidnapping, hostage situation,

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<v Speaker 1>suicide or crisis intervention and anywhere up to barricades and

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<v Speaker 1>sieges and even a counter terrorism event.

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<v Speaker 3>And so as a negotiator, at what point do you

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<v Speaker 3>get called in?

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<v Speaker 1>We usually get called in by police or law enforcement.

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<v Speaker 1>We don't get called in by members of the public

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<v Speaker 1>via triple zero. So the calls we get are when

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<v Speaker 1>police have tried and they've been unsuccessful, and that's when

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<v Speaker 1>they call us.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, you know it's serious when you're rocking up.

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<v Speaker 1>Usually it is, and it can be. But like any job,

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't mean you can't have a bit of fun

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<v Speaker 1>with it. And it doesn't mean it can't be interesting

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<v Speaker 1>and fascinating.

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<v Speaker 2>And it takes on when you say have fun with it,

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<v Speaker 2>like as in with the person like, hey, come out,

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<v Speaker 2>we've all left, gotcha, No, we're here, we're just hidden

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<v Speaker 2>behind trees.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'll give you an example. I was on the

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<v Speaker 1>roof of the counting court. Was a man who had

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<v Speaker 1>a case on and it wasn't going in his favor,

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<v Speaker 1>and so he decided that he wanted to jump. I

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<v Speaker 1>was called out and the judge was talking to him.

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<v Speaker 1>The judge was negotiating. The judge said to me, you're

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<v Speaker 1>only going to make this worse. And I said, well,

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<v Speaker 1>with respect, sir, when I walk into your courtroom, you're

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<v Speaker 1>in charge. Yeah, I am now in charge, and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to ask you to step aside. Please. It's time

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<v Speaker 1>for us to have a go. And so I started

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<v Speaker 1>talking to this man and he was an interesting fellow.

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<v Speaker 1>And he said to me, after about three hours, if

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<v Speaker 1>you make me laugh, I will come down and surrender.

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<v Speaker 1>So I gave him a joke.

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<v Speaker 2>What was you going to Jake?

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<v Speaker 1>Now this bear in mind, this is not, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>one from the playbook. No, this is this is a

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<v Speaker 1>daytime joke. But it's your experience may vary. But he

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<v Speaker 1>thought it was funny. So I'll go to you.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay. So I'm on the roof. I've been there for

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<v Speaker 2>how long?

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<v Speaker 1>About three hours?

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<v Speaker 2>Right? Knock knock? Who's there? Dishes? Dishes?

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<v Speaker 1>Who dishes?

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<v Speaker 2>Sean Connery.

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<v Speaker 3>Got him off the root?

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<v Speaker 2>It did?

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<v Speaker 1>It did? And then what's funny?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think he felt sorry for you?

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<v Speaker 3>I think you did give it a ranch.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, how do you train for this? Is it

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<v Speaker 2>at home with the wife?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, my beautiful wife is she always says to me,

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<v Speaker 1>you can negotiate hostages, you can negotiate kidnappers, but you

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<v Speaker 1>can't negotiate our two kids.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, that's that was my next question actually, because like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you've got a couple.

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<v Speaker 1>Of kids, yes, and a wife.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know what's harder to negotiate with the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the running joke at our place is I sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>do feel like a police hostage negotiator, like trying to

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<v Speaker 2>toalkin eight year old out of a car they've locked

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<v Speaker 2>themselves in the car on the driveway because god forbid,

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<v Speaker 2>I dropped an eminem and he won't come out unless

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<v Speaker 2>I go and buy a new pack.

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<v Speaker 3>But I have a feeling, Jason, that you may not

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<v Speaker 3>keep your cool like a police negotiator because you must

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<v Speaker 3>have to stay so calm. Are there things that just

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<v Speaker 3>make you blow?

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<v Speaker 1>Like yeah, absolutely, Like any sort of policing role. If

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<v Speaker 1>there's anything involving children and anything involving people that can't

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<v Speaker 1>protect themselves, that's going to affect you, that you would

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<v Speaker 1>be You shouldn't be in this job if it doesn't.

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<v Speaker 1>So you just got to find coping strategies. You've got

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<v Speaker 1>to find ways to deal with that and you have

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<v Speaker 1>to find ways to be vulnerable with your colleagues. So

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<v Speaker 1>my mum always said to me, be kind to people

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<v Speaker 1>because everyone is suffering a battle that you know nothing about.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think it's just a nice little line that

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<v Speaker 1>I remember to know that I haven't walked in anyone

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<v Speaker 1>else's shoes, and be kind.

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<v Speaker 3>But do you ever yell? Surely erasive voice.

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<v Speaker 1>I've realized that our bodies are our brains because we

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<v Speaker 1>do a lot of psychology, and we did with psychologists

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<v Speaker 1>a lot, and our brains are attuned to certain frequencies.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I have noticed that yelling at my kids

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<v Speaker 1>is not a good idea. But if you whisper, If

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<v Speaker 1>you whisp at your kids, their brain locks onto that

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<v Speaker 1>frequency and they will.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually I've done that, but it's normally at Westfield. We

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<v Speaker 2>can beg the car and no one's around. I can

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<v Speaker 2>tell you knew Bladdy.

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<v Speaker 3>Listen then let me tell you And does we spring

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<v Speaker 3>work for husbands as well? Oh yeah, okay, no yelling.

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<v Speaker 2>At your back up. If the Sean Connery didn't make

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<v Speaker 2>him laugh, please get down off the roof. Please, Hey

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<v Speaker 2>what movie? No no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

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<v Speaker 2>genuine question, what movie? Or TV show would be the

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<v Speaker 2>most realistic, realistic representation of what you do.

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<v Speaker 4>Stingers, phone Box, water Police.

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<v Speaker 2>Like Negotiated was on the other night that movie with

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<v Speaker 2>Kevin Space, that's right, should have back someone else there.

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<v Speaker 1>But there are a few movies that are that are

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<v Speaker 1>very inaccurate. Inside Man with Jens Washington is it very

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<v Speaker 1>inaccurate but very entertaining. So we don't swap ourselves for hostages.

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<v Speaker 1>We don't tape a gun to the back of our

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<v Speaker 1>head and go into a stronghold like die Hard. That's

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<v Speaker 1>you're getting there.

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<v Speaker 2>With Thomas Police a couple of rules, though, you won't

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<v Speaker 2>swap yourself for a hostage. Yes, what about revealing personal

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<v Speaker 2>details about your life?

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<v Speaker 1>That's a really good question. So we call that associations.

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<v Speaker 1>So for example, if you give, so reciprocity is giving

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<v Speaker 1>and giving in return. So by me giving a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit of myself to you, we build a connection and

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<v Speaker 1>realize we're not so different. So that's that's something we're

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<v Speaker 1>actively encouraged. But you have to have your own line

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<v Speaker 1>in the sands. So I'm not going to go up

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<v Speaker 1>to you. I'm not going to tell you know an

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<v Speaker 1>anti social hostile person with a firearm where I live. No,

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<v Speaker 1>we never like that's our currency because even if if

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<v Speaker 1>you're dealing with a really bad person, that person still

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<v Speaker 1>has to trust you. They don't have to like you,

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<v Speaker 1>but they have to trust you, and so trust is

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<v Speaker 1>won by the inch and lost by the mile.

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<v Speaker 4>Lee.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's a question. Say if I barricaded ourselves in the studio, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we're not coming out, and I asked for

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<v Speaker 2>food to be sent in, is there like like as

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<v Speaker 2>long as it's nothing dangerous, like, will you send in

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<v Speaker 2>any request?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it all depends on what your leverage is. So

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<v Speaker 1>if you're inside a room and we don't need that

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<v Speaker 1>room for the day, I'd probably be saying no, Ja wouldn't.

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<v Speaker 2>Try and wade me out. He's take long to I'd

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<v Speaker 2>leave by nine if you'd have the room back by nine.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me tell you hey this morning, our number is

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<v Speaker 2>thirteen twenty four to ten. If you're up for it,

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<v Speaker 2>do you mind if we open the phones and let

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<v Speaker 2>listeners ask questions? Absolutely? Awesome.

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<v Speaker 3>There you're going to negotiate with your child, with your wife, Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>with your boss?

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<v Speaker 2>There you go.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, life to negotiate with Jake, So he just talks

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<v Speaker 3>over the top of me and doesn't listen.

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<v Speaker 2>Get some tips if they go, yeah, I you've got

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<v Speaker 2>dramas at home and you want to use Lee's tips,

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<v Speaker 2>give us a ring.

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<v Speaker 1>I want you start.

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<v Speaker 2>Talkers, Jason Lawrence, tell me what's you know? That's right?

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<v Speaker 2>John Us this morning seen you. Constable Alia Wallahan. He

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<v Speaker 2>is a police negotiator and also stars in this week's

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<v Speaker 2>episode of Police Life The Experts. That's right a podcast

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<v Speaker 2>done by Victorious Police. That's a great idea. That's awesome.

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<v Speaker 2>So do you guys showcase different roles in the force

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<v Speaker 2>in the podcast? Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>It was brought about by wanting to actually say to

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<v Speaker 1>people there are many more things than just working the

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<v Speaker 1>divisional van or doing full patrols in uniform. You can

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<v Speaker 1>do so many things. There's water police, there's forensics, there's

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<v Speaker 1>detective units, there's tactical units.

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<v Speaker 2>And you have a good rig to be on the

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<v Speaker 2>jet skis for the water police.

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<v Speaker 1>I would imagine. So that's why I'm yeah, you know, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Want to look good.

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<v Speaker 3>All the water police aren't getting around with.

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<v Speaker 2>Their top side now on the jet skis.

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<v Speaker 3>They should, No, they're not.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Hey, our number is thirteen twenty four to ten.

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<v Speaker 2>Lee is happy to answer any questions. This morning. You're

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<v Speaker 2>a police negotiated We're just having a chat during the

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<v Speaker 2>song before about how long a siege or a hostage

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<v Speaker 2>situation can go on for. What's one of the longest

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<v Speaker 2>you've done.

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<v Speaker 1>So we did one in a place called Snake Valley

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<v Speaker 1>about ten years ago. It went for three four days.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow, An are you on the whole time?

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<v Speaker 2>I was there?

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<v Speaker 1>But not always on duty because you have to sleep,

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<v Speaker 1>you have to rest, and you have to also wonder

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<v Speaker 1>when you're being effective. And I work in a team,

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<v Speaker 1>the most amazing team in Victoria, if.

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<v Speaker 2>Not the world. We're a word.

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<v Speaker 1>Leading organization on negotiating and we do it full time.

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<v Speaker 1>So you share the load and you work collaboratively with

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<v Speaker 1>your colum.

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<v Speaker 2>But is that hard? Like I say, if I'm the

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<v Speaker 2>one with the gun, for example, I built a connection

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<v Speaker 2>with you and now you're like, how I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>go and have a nap. This is Clint. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>want Clint. I want great chat, a terrible chat.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that comes down to what you want versus what

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<v Speaker 1>you actually need. And so what you want is different

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<v Speaker 1>to what you need.

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<v Speaker 4>Speaking which do you use the media at all because

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<v Speaker 4>they could be watching their teley, they could be listening

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<v Speaker 4>to their radio.

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<v Speaker 1>We do, and in the old days you were just

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<v Speaker 1>to change someone's phone number, you know, and so that

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<v Speaker 1>they couldn't call out. The average person out has four

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<v Speaker 1>or five six devices of which they can communicate. So

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<v Speaker 1>you need to be engaging. You need to be the

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<v Speaker 1>person that they need, not what they want. Times that

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<v Speaker 1>person might say I want I want a seven forty

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<v Speaker 1>seven and I want two hundred thousand dollars and an

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<v Speaker 1>extra fo they actually.

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<v Speaker 3>Do that say I want a million dollars in helicopter.

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<v Speaker 4>Absolutely no way, because they're chasing well, some are chasing

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<v Speaker 4>fame right because they know they're getting the coverage, they're

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<v Speaker 4>getting the clicks.

0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:16.679
<v Speaker 1>But in the end, what it comes down to is

0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:18.440
<v Speaker 1>you give them what they need and they forget what

0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:22.280
<v Speaker 1>they want. So for example, my child, I want.

0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:23.040
<v Speaker 2>To get a bit of paper.

0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.200
<v Speaker 1>My child says I want this lolly, or I want

0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.440
<v Speaker 1>this or I want that, And what they actually need

0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:32.559
<v Speaker 1>is a sense of they're seeing you walking around the

0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.120
<v Speaker 1>supermarket making decisions and picking up things and they just

0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.000
<v Speaker 1>want to do what you're doing, and they need to

0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:38.920
<v Speaker 1>feel part of that so you let them.

0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:40.200
<v Speaker 2>Feel the powering them.

0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:42.520
<v Speaker 1>Yes, give them what they need, not what they want.

0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:44.600
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So I get them to do the shopping and

0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:46.400
<v Speaker 2>I stay Hume, That's what I got out of that.

0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.440
<v Speaker 3>So hang on, I know we need some more specifics,

0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:50.200
<v Speaker 3>We need more help because I feel like every parents

0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:52.960
<v Speaker 3>absolutely what you say, Oh darling, why don't you go

0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:54.199
<v Speaker 3>pick out the cereal?

0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:55.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:55.839
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely.

0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.440
<v Speaker 1>You involve them in the process, make them feel like

0:10:58.480 --> 0:10:59.920
<v Speaker 1>they're actually part of it. And that's what we do

0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.360
<v Speaker 1>it a siege. We involve the person in the process.

0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.160
<v Speaker 1>And so how this day ends is entirely up to you.

0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.360
<v Speaker 1>You are in control, but the way you think the

0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:09.760
<v Speaker 1>day is going to end is not actually accurate.

0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.040
<v Speaker 2>But these are options. So calm, isn't he?

0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.160
<v Speaker 3>I know, Lee, could you come and live in my

0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:14.920
<v Speaker 3>house for a wenk?

0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:16.480
<v Speaker 2>I was just thinking, are you going to use this

0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.719
<v Speaker 2>tactic on Paul? Paul, you can pick whatever you want

0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:20.720
<v Speaker 2>off the menu of the restaurant I've picked.

0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:23.640
<v Speaker 3>No, But see, I do things like that. I give

0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.400
<v Speaker 3>him two options, like an outrageous one that I know

0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:27.880
<v Speaker 3>he's never going to go for, and then the one

0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:28.400
<v Speaker 3>that I want.

0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I thought you mean bringing in a third. Let's

0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.760
<v Speaker 2>go to Sarah. I'm thirteen, twenty fourteen. Sarah, you are

0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.960
<v Speaker 2>on the line with Lee your chance to probe the paper.

0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:38.560
<v Speaker 2>What's your question?

0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.720
<v Speaker 3>Good morning, guys, welcome back, break to your boys, Thank you,

0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:43.200
<v Speaker 3>thank you.

0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:45.599
<v Speaker 1>I've got to do it.

0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:50.000
<v Speaker 3>Eighty eighth C. And Rishi is lying, and it's sort

0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.520
<v Speaker 3>of knowing where I mean.

0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.160
<v Speaker 1>I respite that all the time, so I'm used to

0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.320
<v Speaker 1>now her lying, But it's how do you get them

0:11:58.360 --> 0:11:58.800
<v Speaker 1>to stop?

0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.719
<v Speaker 2>How do you spot a line in a hostage negotiation.

0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.079
<v Speaker 1>I think what you've got to do is you've got

0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.240
<v Speaker 1>to learn how to reward the good and then ignore

0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.920
<v Speaker 1>instead of punish the bad. And so what I recommend,

0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:15.960
<v Speaker 1>especially with lying, it does, unfortunately start with us. We

0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:18.480
<v Speaker 1>lie to our kids all the time. We lied about

0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.079
<v Speaker 1>We lie about everything. We all lie, don't we, And

0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.079
<v Speaker 1>so they it is a learned behavior. It's not something

0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.360
<v Speaker 1>that they are born with. They learn it. And so

0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:30.240
<v Speaker 1>I know this is going to sound like a non answer,

0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:32.160
<v Speaker 1>but one of the best ways to do is lead

0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.800
<v Speaker 1>by example and show to them. I'm going to tell

0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:36.640
<v Speaker 1>you something now that you're not gonna like. I'm going

0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:38.280
<v Speaker 1>to tell you something that you don't want to hear,

0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:39.920
<v Speaker 1>but it's the truth.

0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:40.800
<v Speaker 2>Your shot.

0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.359
<v Speaker 3>Jason is in trouble. God, you lie about everything.

0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.400
<v Speaker 2>Don't Isn't he good? Isn't he?

0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:51.280
<v Speaker 3>Jase lies about everything. We're a meeting yesterday and he said,

0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.000
<v Speaker 3>I'm sorry, I've got meetings at the kids' school. And

0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.200
<v Speaker 3>I sent him a text saying, you're such a liar,

0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:00.319
<v Speaker 3>I'll do the meeting.

0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, they wanted to do a zoom meeting.

0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:06.720
<v Speaker 3>It's your own fault that the kids are telling little

0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:07.400
<v Speaker 3>porky pies.

0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:14.000
<v Speaker 2>Well leave that segment went well, eye bloody. Am fascinated

0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.280
<v Speaker 2>by your job, and I encourage everyone should check out

0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:21.080
<v Speaker 2>the Victoria Police news podcast. It's called Police Life the Experts.

0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:22.320
<v Speaker 3>I'll be listening to that.

0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:24.120
<v Speaker 2>That is crazy. And thank you very much for all

0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:25.640
<v Speaker 2>the work you guys do. Mate. I know it wouldn't

0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.040
<v Speaker 2>be easy, and I can imagine it would be extremely

0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:29.920
<v Speaker 2>hard being on a job for a couple of days

0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.040
<v Speaker 2>and then having to go home and just like, how

0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:33.720
<v Speaker 2>do you do that? Walk through the door and just

0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.160
<v Speaker 2>park the police job at work and be dad at home.

0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 1>I think the important thing is to cherish what you have,

0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.800
<v Speaker 1>cherish your family, be honest and vulnerable with them, and because,

0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.760
<v Speaker 1>like I said, everyone is fighting a battle that no

0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.240
<v Speaker 1>one knows anything about. So it's good to be vulnerable.

0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.200
<v Speaker 1>Come home, but don't bring those problems home.

0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.000
<v Speaker 3>Yes, he's good, he's very good.

0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:55.719
<v Speaker 2>We thank you very much for coming in.

0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.040
<v Speaker 3>We'll call you the next time. Jason, I have an issue.

0:13:58.280 --> 0:13:59.200
<v Speaker 3>You can sort it out.

0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:01.439
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. Guys, you wouldn't mind shooting clan with the

0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:02.240
<v Speaker 2>taser on your way up.

0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:03.440
<v Speaker 3>We love the police.