1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Chopper couldn't spell unless he was spelling the names of 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: guns or things like mesha schmids. He could always spell those. 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: Billy got hold of a cult forty five pistol and 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: taught himself to shoot really well, and so when people 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: started to shoot at him, they would miss at fifteen 6 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 1: meters or twenty meters and he would hit them. And 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 1: we laid out this entire book in a weekend, and 8 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: it was a rough little book called Chopper from the Inside, 9 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: and that became the first and best classic Chopper book. 10 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: This is Life and Crimes. I'm Andrew Rule, and we're 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: looking at more reader questions from our mailbag. 12 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: And I'm not Andrew of all. My name's Johnny Burton. 13 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 2: I'm the producer of the show, and I shall ask 14 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: the questions. Now, you can have four guests for dinner, 15 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: all of those you have written about over the years. 16 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: Who would they be and why? And while you draw 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 2: up to the seating plan there, I'll say that's from 18 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: listener Sharon, four guests, four guests. I also want to know, 19 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: if you have time, what would you have on the menu? 20 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: Sharon asks who I'd invited dinner of the people I've 21 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: written about over the years before I'm going to nominate, 22 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: I knew the more. I had known them all to 23 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: talk to, and they're all engaging and interesting and intelligent 24 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: in their own way. One is the late Billy Longley, 25 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: who was known as the Texan Billy Longley. We've talked 26 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: about him here before. He was the son of a 27 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: tradesman and an English woman or a Scottish woman whose 28 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: father had been a naval captain between the Wars, so 29 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: Billy didn't come from a crime family. Billy did not 30 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: have a tattoo. He was just a tough kid who 31 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: grew up in the Depression out in the inner western 32 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: or northern suburbs ascot Vale area and became a tough 33 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: guy by osmosis really, and the rest of his family 34 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: was pretty respectable. I remember meeting them at his eightieth birthday. 35 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: But Billy was described at that birthday by a former 36 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: governor of Penridge as a straight arrow in a yard 37 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 1: full of rubbish or something like that. So he impressed people. 38 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: Billy had a deep, strong voice, a commanding presence, and 39 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: absolute gravitas. He had a strong personality and in different 40 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: circumstances would have made an impressive leader in a military sense, 41 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: or in business or something like that. As a crook, 42 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: he was highly disciplined. Other crooks were drunks and idiots 43 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: and lunatics who did mad things. Billy would always think 44 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: things through. Billy got hold of a cult forty five 45 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: pistol and taught himself to shoot really well, and so 46 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: when people started to shoot at him, they would miss 47 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: at fifteen meters or twenty meters, and he would them 48 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: with his shots because he was good at it. He 49 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: would keep his weapons well oiled and in good order, 50 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: which a lot of crooks didn't. He would not drink 51 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: to excess, which a lot of crooks did. This didn't 52 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: make Billy a good bloke or a kind bloke. I'm 53 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: not suggesting that he was an upstanding citizen in every way. 54 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: He wasn't. His first wife died in very questionable circumstances, 55 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: although he was cleared of that homicide very well represented 56 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: in court. I think Billy though interesting. Man and Philip Adams, 57 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: the great radio and print man ad Man and soon 58 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: rates Billy as one of the most interesting of the 59 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: many thousands of people that he's interviewed in fifty years. 60 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: Number two on a short list of for Chopper Reid, 61 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: who knew Billy quite well. Chopper Reid was mad and 62 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: bad as a kid, probably mentally disturbed in a way, 63 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: probably had some form of a form of autism or 64 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: something like that. He certainly had been disturbed because his 65 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: mother was pretty well a religious zealot, very straight laced 66 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: woman who was a Seventh Day Adventist. She was the 67 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: daughter of a clergyman and her family were extremely respectable people. 68 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: In fact, Chopper's mother's brother, that is, his uncle, was 69 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: a doctor who became well known for doing a radio show. 70 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: He was known on the radiators I think doctor James Wright, 71 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: which wasn't his actual name, but was famous around Australia 72 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: at one time as a radio doctor who gave advice 73 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: on the radio. His Chopper's sister, Mark Brandon Reid is 74 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: his real name. His sister, respectable woman. Her son I think, 75 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: became a West End producer in London of theater. But 76 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: Chopper's father was a returned World War Two soldier, Keith Reid, 77 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: who I think was a classic disturbed soldier with PTSD 78 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: and had mental issues, and he brought out the worst 79 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: in his son and probably pushed him along the road 80 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: towards the sort of man he became. I have to 81 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: say that Chopper Read hadn't had flat feet. He had 82 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: very flat feet. If he had not had flat feet. 83 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: He was a big, strong, strapping young fellow who could 84 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: shoot really well. Was intelligent in fact, not very literate, 85 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: but intelligent, and would have made an extremely good soldier. 86 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,119 Speaker 1: But he couldn't get into the military because of his feet, 87 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: and that send him down the wrong path. Interesting guy 88 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: could knock out rhyming couplets the way that rappers can. 89 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: In a way, he was like a rapper. He could 90 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: write stuff that rhymed. He was funny. He was a 91 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: very good conversationalist and a good storyteller. And he collected 92 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: a lot of story who is in jail because the 93 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: yarnspinner's in jail, And he collected them and adapted them 94 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: to his own purposes, and they were the basis of 95 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,559 Speaker 1: a lot of what he wrote. Very funny. Going third 96 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: one not so funny, more intense, but intelligent. His name 97 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: was Ray Mooney mn e Y, probably a moody fella. 98 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: Came out of middle class Melbourne, I'd say, from the 99 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: more or less Catholic establishment, from one of a better 100 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: phrase went to one of the better Catholic schools. Was 101 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: a schoolboy athlete of note, as was Andrew Fraser. One 102 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: of probably almost one of the rivals in his era 103 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: was Andrew Fraser from a different school. Ray Mooney I 104 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: think was a crackerjack, runner and all around athlete, probably 105 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: a very good footballer and could fight and do all 106 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: those things. Period physical piece of work went down the 107 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: wrong track. He apparently committed was convicted of quite a 108 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: serious sexual assault. I don't know the circumstances of it. 109 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: It was the sort of crime which could lead to 110 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: people getting very severe sentences in those days for something 111 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: that might or might not have been a severe crime. Now. 112 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: I don't know what the circumstances were, but it's conceivable 113 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: that Ray Mooney was not as guilty as perhaps a 114 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: judge and jury thought he was. It might well have 115 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: something to do, possibly with the identity of the alleged victim. 116 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: I don't know. But he's an intelligent man, an interesting man, 117 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: and he wrote a lot of things, and he still 118 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: writes stuff. But he wrote a novel called A Green Light, 119 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: which was a thinly veiled story about crime in Victoria 120 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: and Australia. The central character of which was clearly his 121 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: good friend in jail, Christopher Dale Flannery, the hitman who 122 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: ended up disappearing in Sydney, was undoubtedly shot dead by 123 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: Bent police in Sydney after becoming too much of a 124 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: danger to a lot of people up there. And Ray Mooney, 125 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: when he published the book way back in the late eighties, 126 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: was at pains to say it was not about Christopher 127 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: Dale Flannery, but years later he said to me, yeah, 128 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: well of course it was. And it's a really effective novel. 129 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: It predates things like reservoir dogs, but it covers that 130 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: sort of territory. It's not the only thing he's done. 131 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: He wrote by something called Every Night, which was the 132 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: basis for a film. He's worked on a lot of 133 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: things and he's highly respected in certain circles. Very interesting man. 134 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: And the fourth one is David McMillan. We call him mcviillaan. 135 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: David McMillan, conman, drug trafficker, half a genius undercover copper 136 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: that I know, said that McMillan was the smartest crime 137 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: he ever met. McMillan, back in the days before computers 138 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: took over, could memorize hundreds of plane timetables so that 139 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: he could work out which plane slanted where and when 140 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: and how you could get off one and on another. 141 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: And he did this because he worked out how he 142 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 1: could get a heap of false identities, which he did 143 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: by pretending to be someone who was dead. He would 144 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: go and find graves of little children that had died 145 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: back in the same year when he was born, back 146 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: in late fifties, and he would assume those identities, and 147 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: he would get passports and bank accounts and other things 148 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: in those identities and build them up so that when 149 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: he traveled overseas where he would pick up drugs, don't 150 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: worry about that. He was an absolute villain. He would 151 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: pick up drugs, or he would send other people couriers 152 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: to pick up drugs. And when he got to somewhere 153 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: where he was in our drug sort of venue, like 154 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: Thailand or Burma or something like that, he would then 155 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: fly out of there on a different passport and go 156 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: to London, and he would swap identities around so that 157 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: when he was coming back to Australia it would appear 158 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: that he had not been in the drug related place, 159 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: but had been in somewhere innocuous like Holland or Sweden 160 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: or something like that, and that meant it was much 161 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: easier for him to bring back drugs hidden in luggage 162 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: or in goods that he had sent back, and he 163 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: and his friends, a friend of his called Sullivan. Sullivan 164 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: had been a champion schoolboy pole vaulter. Now here's the thing. 165 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: We've now got three people that I've mentioned here today 166 00:10:55,320 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: that were champion schoolboy athletes. McMillan's friend was a dinky 167 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: die champion schoolboy Paul Volter. His old coach told me 168 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: that if he hadn't broken his ankle or a leg 169 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: or something as a teenager, he would have gone to 170 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: the Olympics and been one of the best in the 171 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: world because he was an elite athlete. But the injury 172 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: meant he couldn't go on with it. And the injury 173 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: was so painful that he sought drugs to alleviate the pain, 174 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: and that led him down the path of using drugs, 175 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: which led him to form an alliance with David McMillan, 176 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: which ultimately destroyed them both. They became addicts, they got caught, 177 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 1: they went to jail, and their lives turned to absolute ruin. 178 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: McMillan is still alive over in the UK somewhere, but 179 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: he's been in and out of jail around the world 180 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: for all these years. I did publish a book by 181 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: him called mcvillain. He was a most engaging correspondent. He 182 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: was a liar and a con man, and a cheat 183 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: and a fraud, but he could write really well and 184 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: is a very funny, astute fellow and a very acute 185 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: observer of the criminal millieu. He would be a good 186 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: man to have at that table. However, the problem, Sharon 187 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: with having four people like that at the table is 188 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: that they would compete for airspace with each other, and 189 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: they'd want to show off and try and stand over 190 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: each other and stare each other down, and inevitably what 191 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: would happen would be that probably Billy Longley and Ray 192 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: Mooney would end up butting horns with the others. McMillan 193 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: would sit back and take notes because he wasn't a 194 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,719 Speaker 1: tough guy. He was a thinker and a funny guy 195 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: and a conman. The conversation might end up a bit 196 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: one sided at that dinner party and might be as 197 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: enjoyable as perhaps you might think, because what those guys 198 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: need is an audience and what they don't like is 199 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: an audience that's competing with them. The food I would 200 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: select for them would be roast beef and Yorkshire pudding. 201 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: We should say that we've had episodes on Shopper, which 202 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: I think we may have called Shopper. We've had an 203 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 2: episode on Billy Longley which we call The Texan, and 204 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 2: we have an episode on McMillan, which we of course 205 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 2: called mcvillain, and you can find those in your podcast feed. 206 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 2: Going on from that question one from Pat, and it 207 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 2: talks about one of your dinner guests there. Pat is 208 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: interested to hear what you did in and around writing 209 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: the Chopper books. Was there a lot to clean up 210 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: of his copy? How did that come together? Was he 211 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 2: telling tales far from the truth? And what did you 212 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 2: think about the book after we'd been published. 213 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: Well, the first thing Pat is to declare that it 214 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: was a joint effort by John Sylvestro and myself with 215 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: Mark Brandon Reid, who at the time was serving one 216 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: of his many long sentences in Penridge. John Sylvester, who 217 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: then worked at the forerunner to this paper, the Old 218 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: Sun News Pictorial, he was a career crime writer from 219 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: the start. Johnny was sent to police rounds in nineteen 220 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: seventy eight, forty five years ago, and as he recently wrote, 221 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: he never really left. And John has become that rare 222 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: person that has been a police and crime reporter all 223 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: his career. He's a specialist. He knows crooks, he knows coppers. 224 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: He's the son of a former senior policeman, the late 225 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: Fred Silvester, who was an assistant commissioner. And John is 226 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: an astute observer of the scene, very good speaker, very 227 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: funny man himself. He tells the story of going out 228 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: to Pendridge to interview Chopper Read and being ushered into 229 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: a small room and instead of shaking hands, Chopper reaches 230 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: out and grabs John's thumb and places that thumb on 231 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: a small oppression in Chopper's head and said, he said, 232 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: that's where the ice pick went in. And John said 233 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: something like, well, mostly on the outside we shake hands, 234 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: but if you want to show me the scar in 235 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: your head where the ice pick went in, that's fine. 236 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: That's fine by mate. And so they talked away. John 237 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: wrote a story, and the story writ in the paper, 238 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: and it was a good story. It was an interesting story, 239 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: and it pleased the editor and please John, please, I 240 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: think might please chop a read. Even though it was 241 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: fairly negative towards him, it didn't please the authorities who 242 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: gave him another six months. I think was one of 243 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: the problems. But Chopper put the hard word on. Johnny said, look, 244 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: I realized that the most famous crooks are the ones 245 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: who were written about that in the Old West. The 246 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: ones who got well known, Believe the Kid and all 247 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: the rest of them were the ones that the knock 248 00:15:55,520 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: about reporters wrote Penny dreadful about them, masters and all 249 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: those Old West names. He wanted to be well known 250 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: like those guys. He wanted to be the best known 251 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: crooks and Squeze Tailor and Ned Kelly. And he realized 252 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: the only way to do that was to tell stories 253 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: and have them in the media, in newspapers as he 254 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: saw it then, and he said, I want you to 255 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: write a book about me. I'll come out and we'll 256 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: get some pizzes and beer and tape recorder and I'll 257 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: record it and he'll turn it into a book. And 258 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: John drew himself up to his full six foot and 259 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: half an inch and said, no, you won't. If you 260 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: want to write a book, you write yourself. And so 261 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: Chopper gets some penridge, prison notepaper and a biro and 262 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: he sits up against his television in his cell at 263 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: night with the faint light of the TV, and he 264 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: starts writing. Now to answer the question, his writing was 265 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: very primitive, big ugly letters, really bad spelling. It looked 266 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: like the writing of someone who'd stopped learning to write 267 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: in a grade four or five, which is possibly true. 268 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: But the fact that Chopper couldn't spell unless he was 269 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: spelling the names of guns or things like mesha schmids. 270 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: He could always spell those, but he's spelling was really 271 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: idiosyncratic and crazy, very primitive forming of letters. But he 272 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: was funny and he told stories that were funny, and 273 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: many of them were his own stories, some he borrowed 274 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: from others. He'd say, well, I was talking to Ray 275 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: Chuck the other day, whe I was talking to someone 276 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: and they told me this. And he would take the 277 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: stories of other people and tell them and he was 278 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: really good at it. And I have to say that 279 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: when he started sending these letters in to John at 280 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: the newspaper, every day, there'd be another one. Every day 281 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: there'd be another one, and John open them up and 282 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: come over and say this mad bugger's he is writing stuff. Look, 283 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: he's one about his child, it is one about his dad, 284 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: he's one about when he stole his first bike. Whatever. 285 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: And indeed he wrote enough material that John and I, 286 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: who had just decided to write a book together, a 287 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: different book. We were going to call it. I think 288 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: we're going to call it Bent, and it was going 289 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: to be a fictionalized novel about Bent Coppis. I think 290 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: we'd written one page of that together, because I'd published 291 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: a book at this dage, and John realized that together 292 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: we might be able to do something. We said, let's 293 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: chuck in our thing and do Chopper because it's there, 294 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: it's easy to do, and it's hitting the pigeon hole 295 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: every day. And so John would get these letters and 296 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: he would just type them up roughly in the system 297 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: at the Sun News Pictorial forerunner of the Heralds, where 298 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: I was in sub editing, and we would take that 299 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 1: copy and I would then rewrite it and change it. 300 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: John would add things. If Chop mentions a policeman or 301 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: another crook, John would add stuff about that person to 302 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: fatten it out, to give more context and more detail. 303 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: I would then take that and fatten it up again 304 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: and polish it and give it more shape, so it 305 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: comes out more like a real story written by a writer, 306 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: but still recognizably Choppers memories. This is actually what ghostwriters do. 307 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: We were doing precisely a ghost writing job, where we 308 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: took the original from the talent, the footballer or the 309 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: crook or the jockey, and we turned it into something 310 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: more readable. And it was still pretty rough, i have 311 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: to say, because we were doing this at midnight and 312 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: doing the best we could. And long story short, we 313 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: went to a guy who worked in newspapers at Dandy 314 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: Kong for the Danny Noong Journal, and one weekend we 315 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: went there and we got a lot of hamburgers and 316 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,239 Speaker 1: beer and coca cola and bad stuff like that, and 317 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: we locked ourselves in for the weekend and we produced 318 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 1: this book. It was done in what they call cold metal, 319 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: which meant cutting it out with scalpels and laying it 320 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: out in pages and forms as books were done in 321 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: those days and newspapers, and we laid out this entire 322 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: book in the weekend and it was a rough little 323 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 1: book called Chopper from the Inside, and that became the 324 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: first and best Classic Chopper book and we printed it 325 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: at our own expense because we were backing this one. 326 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: I think I got an overdraft of five thousand dollars 327 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: which I still have, and we printed it. The glue 328 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: in the book wasn't good. It was a cheap edition 329 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: with cheap paper and the pages were falling out. We 330 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: were selling it around for around the twelve dollar mark 331 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: or something, which in those days was the low end 332 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: of the paperback market, about like twenty eight bucks now, 333 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: and they were falling apart all over Australia, these things. 334 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: But they were selling and the more they saw, the 335 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: more they fell apart. The more they fell apart, the 336 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: more people went back and brought another one because they 337 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: weren't that expensive that they couldn't afford to go and 338 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: get another one. And so ow falling apart, rough little 339 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 1: book full of errors and all sorts of stuff about 340 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: a bloke with noe's who just got out of jail. 341 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: At this stage it became a legitimate bestseller. And we 342 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: realized this when we looked at the news footage on 343 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: TV and saw the Australian cricket team getting off the 344 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: plane at Heathrow in London and all of them are 345 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: carrying the Chopper Book. They'd been reading it on the 346 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: way over. It became a cult book, and that, in 347 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: a long elongated nutshell, is how we created the Chopper Book. 348 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: It was rough and tough, it was genuinely funny. The 349 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: best bits in it were Choppers jokes. We did jokes 350 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: and we added stuff, but the funniest stuff in it 351 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: was Chopper and it actually established a genre, or helped 352 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: to establish a genre in publishing true crime that predated 353 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: Quentin Tarantino and reservoir dogs and all that sort of stuff. 354 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: So we actually lay claim to having helped invent that 355 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 1: genre in our little corner of the world. 356 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 2: Thanks to everyone for writing in now. This was just 357 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 2: a smattering of some of the questions that we've had 358 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 2: in the mailbag. And keep those questions coming because we're 359 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 2: going to be doing these question and answer shows more often. 360 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 2: So if your question wasn't answered and you've already written 361 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 2: it in, or if you haven't written your question but 362 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 2: really should, you should do that now and send it 363 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,479 Speaker 2: to Life and Crimes at news dot com dot au 364 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: and I. 365 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: Will look forward to answering them. Thanks for listening. Life 366 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for True 367 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 368 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au, 369 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: forward slash Andrew Rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 370 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: to news Podcasts sold at news dot com dot au. 371 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: That is all one word news podcasts sold And if 372 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: you want further information about this episode, links are in 373 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: the description.