1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: From the news room I used to come. 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 2: Today Today there, I'm Andrew Bucklow and guess what, it's 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 2: February twenty four today. Why is that important, you say, Well, 4 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 2: some big things have happened on this date in history. 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty four, for example, boxer Muhammad Ali became 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 2: heavyweight champion of the world. In twenty twenty, film producer 7 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 2: Harvey Weinstein was convicted of sexual assault. And February twenty 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 2: four is Chelsea Handler's birthday, the comedian who recently hosted 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 2: the Critics' Choice Awards. 10 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 3: We've been through a lot lately, not just here in 11 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 3: Los Angeles, but our entire country. 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 4: So it is important in times like these. 13 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 3: To have a distraction, and that's why I want to 14 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 3: personally extend my gratitude to Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively. 15 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: On a serious note, today is also the third anniversary 16 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Now, the majority of the 17 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: world has been united in its support of Presidents Lensky 18 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 2: and his people, but that all changed last week. Donald 19 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 2: Trump made some shocking comments about the Ukrainian leader, comments 20 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 2: that suggest he may not be able to rely on 21 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 2: America's help for much longer. In today's episode, will take 22 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 2: a look at what Trump said, why he said it, 23 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: and what it means for the future. Joining me now 24 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: is news dot com dot I use Sam Klenschi covers 25 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 2: US politics for US as well as the war in 26 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 2: Ukraine clenchy. Today is the third anniversary of this conflict. 27 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,839 Speaker 2: I think a quick refresher might help some people. Why 28 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: exactly did Russia invade in the first place? What was 29 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: their initial aim? 30 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 3: Well, it's a war of expansion and aggression essentially. Vladimir 31 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 3: Putin claims he was provoked into invading Ukraine by NATO expansionism, 32 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 3: by the prospect of Ukraine joining the NATO Alliance, which 33 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 3: would mean having a NATO country on Russia's doorstep. But 34 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 3: we should stress here that NATO is a defensive alliance. 35 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 3: The whole point of it is that if somebody attacks 36 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 3: any NATO the country, the whole alliance comes to its aid. 37 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 3: The only time that's ever happened was after nine to eleven. 38 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 3: It's not an aggressive alliance. Countries are not forced to join, 39 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 3: they do so voluntarily. So when Putin claims that NATO 40 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 3: is a threat to Russia, and that has been his 41 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 3: chief justification, for this war. He's full of crap. The 42 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 3: only reason he was worried about Ukraine possibly joining at 43 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 3: some point in the future was that he wanted Ukraine 44 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 3: for himself. He wants to conquer it and to absorb 45 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 3: it into Russia. He believes there is no such thing 46 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 3: as an independent Ukraine, that it belongs in Russia. If 47 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 3: Ukraine had joined NATO, he could not invade it without 48 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: invoking the full scale protection of the rest of the 49 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 3: NATO alliance, which would have Russia completely outmatched. The initial 50 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 3: aim of this war, by the way, was to take 51 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 3: Ukraine and depose its government within about three days, and 52 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 3: here we are three years later. That's partly because of 53 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 3: the aid Ukraine has received from the Western world, chiefly 54 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 3: Europe and the US. All So, it should be said, 55 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,399 Speaker 3: in large part due to a determination, at a stubbornness 56 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 3: and a level of courage from the Ukrainians themselves that 57 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 3: Putin did not expect. 58 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 2: You mentioned they're three years in. Nah, who exactly is 59 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: winning this battle? 60 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 3: It is something of a stalemate. Ukraine is still very 61 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 3: much reliant on international aid to keep this defense going. 62 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 3: Russia is a much larger country with a much larger 63 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: military and Putin has tapped into those resources more and 64 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 3: more as the war has proceeded. If going to judge 65 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 3: the war by casualties, which are of course quite difficult 66 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 3: to gauge accurately, it is clear that Russia has suffered many, 67 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 3: many more deaths and injuries. We're talking well over half 68 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 3: a million soldiers, probably approaching a million. That's not to 69 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 3: say that Ukraine has not also suffered. Its casualty level 70 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 3: is in at least the tens of thousands, and of 71 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 3: course the Russians have repeatedly targeted Ukrainian civilians as well. 72 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 3: But look, the war is essentially static on a stone lights. 73 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: As you mentioned, one of the reasons Ukraine has been 74 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: able to hold off Russian forces so well is because 75 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 2: of the billions of dollars worth of military aid it's 76 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 2: received from European nations and the US. 77 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 4: The American people who are answering President Selenski's call for 78 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 4: more help, more weapons through Ukraine to defend us of 79 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 4: more tools to fight Russian aggression? Where are you united 80 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 4: in our abhorrence of prudents depraved onslide? And We're going 81 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 4: to continue to have their backs as they fight for 82 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 4: their freedom. Their democracy, their very survival. 83 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: That was Joe Biden there, who of course was a 84 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: huge supporter of Ukraine during his time in office, but 85 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: his successor, Donald Trump, well, not as much. Now. Trump 86 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: had talked a pretty big game before he won November's election. 87 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 5: Before I even arrive. 88 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 6: At the Oval office, I will have the disastrous war 89 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 6: between Russia and Ukraine settled. It will be settled quickly, silfully. 90 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 5: I will get the problem solved, and I will get 91 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 5: it solved in rapid order, and it will take me 92 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 5: no longer than one day. I know exactly what to 93 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 5: say to each other. 94 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 4: I got along with very well with him. 95 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 3: I think it is important to actually highlight what we 96 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 3: just heard there from Donald Trump before he took office, 97 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 3: which was him claiming he'd be able to settle the 98 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 3: war in Ukraine within twenty four hours. Obviously that didn't happen. 99 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 3: It's a thing he said he could and would do repeatedly, 100 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 3: and I think it does matter when politicians promise to 101 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 3: do things knowing full well that impossible, and then inevitably 102 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 3: do not deliver. So we should take note of that. 103 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 3: I will say also that Trump's comments about Ukraine were 104 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: ambiguous enough before the election to give Republicans who support 105 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 3: Ukraine something to work with, something to hold on to. 106 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 3: In fact, not just Republicans, not just Americans. We saw 107 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 3: conservative politicians around the world insisting that Trump would be 108 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 3: good for Ukraine if he won, and maybe that argument 109 00:05:54,640 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 3: remains plausible until last week, when Trump essentially turned completely 110 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 3: against Ukraine. He spent the week saying things about Ukraine 111 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 3: and particularly its president Vladimir Zelensky, that were almost indistinguishable 112 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 3: from Russian propaganda. The catalyst appears to have been a 113 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,679 Speaker 3: phone call with Putin. Then the US held preliminary peace 114 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 3: talks with Russia in Saudi Arabia without Ukraine being present. 115 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: For the United States and Russia, they've agreed on a 116 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 3: path forward to end the war in Ukraine following peace talks. 117 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: These were pretty groundbreaking talks held in the Saudi Arabian 118 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: capital of reab between Russia and the US. The glaring omission, 119 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: of course, a delegation or anyone from Ukraine. 120 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 2: Well on that meeting between US and Russian officials. As 121 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: you mentioned, Ukraine was not invited to the table. President 122 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: Zelenski of Ukraine not very happy about that. He made 123 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: a few comments and then Donald Trump responded, shocking the 124 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 2: world with his comments, really by blaming Ukraine for the war. 125 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 5: I think I have the power to end this war, 126 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 5: and I think it's going very well well. But today 127 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 5: I heard, oh, we weren't invited. Well, you've been there 128 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 5: for three years. You should have ended it three years. 129 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 5: You should have never started it. You could have made 130 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 5: a deal. 131 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: He then lashed out at President Zelensky, calling him a dictator. 132 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 6: He refuses have elections, is low in the real Ukrainian Poles. 133 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 6: I mean, how can you be high with every city 134 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 6: is being demolished? And the only thing he was really 135 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 6: good at was playing Joe Biden like a fiddle. He 136 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 6: played him like a fiddle. That's an expression we use, yes, sir, 137 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 6: to say that he's pretty easy, pretty easy, a dictator 138 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 6: without elections. Zelensky better move fast or he's not going 139 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 6: to have a country left clenchy. 140 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: Clearly a number of falsehoods from President Trump in both 141 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 2: those comments. 142 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 5: Yeah. 143 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 3: Look, Trump has made a fair few assertions in the 144 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 3: last week or so that are not really supported by facts, 145 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 3: and that has been fueling the concern of not just Ukraine, 146 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 3: but it's allies around the world. One of Trump's assertions 147 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 3: is that Zelensky's approval rating in Ukraine is at four percent. 148 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 3: It's unclear where mister Trump got that number from. No 149 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 3: such poll seems to exist. The polling that we do 150 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 3: have put Zelensky's approval ratings still consistently above fifty percent. 151 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 3: So I don't know if Trump picked that up from 152 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 3: Putin during his phone call or saw something on Twitter. 153 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 3: It's a bit inexplicable, the thing that he's been repeating 154 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 3: about Zelensky being a dictator without elections. It just seems 155 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 3: ignorant of the way that Ukraine's laws work. Ukraine's constitution 156 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 3: forbids elections where the country is under martial law, as 157 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 3: it has been since Putin invaded. All the country's political 158 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 3: parties support holding elections six months after martial law is lifted, 159 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 3: and that's not likely to happen before the war is over. 160 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: The part I find particularly striking is this. Trump never 161 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 3: says anything like this about Vladimir Putin. I don't think 162 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 3: he's ever called for free and fair elections in Russia. 163 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 3: I'm not sure he has ever even described Putin as 164 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 3: a dictator, when Putin is someone who oppresses all political 165 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 3: opposition within Russia. He does not allow a free press. 166 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 3: He has his political opponents jailed and murdered. To have 167 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 3: the American president describing Ukraine's leader as a dictator for 168 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 3: the crime of trying to defend his country from foreign aggression, 169 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 3: while refusing to ever properly criticize an actual dictator on 170 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 3: the other side, the aggressor in this war, I think 171 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 3: is incredibly telling. 172 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 2: And just on that claim of Trump's, that wild claim 173 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 2: that it was Ukraine that started the war, I mean, Klenschy, 174 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: what is he on about there? What on earth is 175 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 2: he referencing? 176 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 3: Well, Trump in his comments last week, was pretty clear 177 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 3: that he thought Ukraine should have given Russia some of 178 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 3: its territory. He was saying things like, if I were president, 179 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 3: I could have made a deal, could have done it 180 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 3: very easily, the implication being that Ukraine should have staved 181 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 3: off Putin's invasion by giving Putin some of its territory. 182 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 3: Of course, Putin already had Crimea which he sees illegally 183 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen. He already had parts of eastern Ukraine, 184 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 3: such as the don Bass, again seized illegally in twenty fourteen. 185 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 3: The suggestion from the American president here is that Zelenski 186 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 3: was a fool not to give up more Land to Russia, 187 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 3: and that in refusing to do so, he actually provoked 188 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 3: the inversion. 189 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 2: We'll stick around in just a moment. We'll find out 190 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: if this wild outburst from Trump last week is a tactic, 191 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 2: if there's a method to his madness, and we'll ask 192 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 2: Clenchi what he thinks is going to happen with the 193 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: Ukraine war in the next twelve months. I'm Chattington News 194 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 2: dot com dot use a Sam Klench, who covers US 195 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: politics and the war in Ukraine. Clenchi, We've just heard 196 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: before the ad break some of those wild comments from 197 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 2: Donald Trump about Zelenski being a dictator, about Ukraine being 198 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 2: the ones who started the war. Why would he be 199 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 2: saying this? Is there a tactic here? 200 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 3: Look, it's hard to know. Very few of us trying 201 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 3: to analyze trans behavior are psychologists. From my perspective, he's 202 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 3: always been quite a reflexive human being. He holds grudges, 203 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 3: he pursues vendettas, and I think his dislike for Zelenski 204 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 3: in particular goes back to his first impeachment, which happened 205 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 3: during his first term as president. You'll recall that he 206 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 3: tried to pressure Zelenski into launching an investigation of Joe Biden, 207 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 3: who was then Trump's chief political opponent, based on corruption 208 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 3: allegations that were tenuous at best. I might say he 209 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 3: withheld congressionally approved military aid to Ukraine in an attempt 210 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 3: to get a foreign leader to help him defeat a 211 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 3: domestic political opponent, and Zelenski rebuff him, and I think 212 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 3: that is still a factor in how Trump views Ukraine now. 213 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 3: Of course, there's also Trump's friendliness towards Putin is almost 214 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 3: it's almost the central mystery of his time in politics. 215 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 3: We had a long investigation during his first term that 216 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 3: did not find evidence of collusion between Trump and Russia. 217 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 3: That's the thing that his political opponents, the Democrats, have 218 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 3: been on about for years and years. Didn't find evidence 219 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 3: of that. It more seems to be the case that 220 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 3: Trump is actually just personally almost infatuated with the guy. 221 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 3: Maybe he admires the strong man image. Maybe he's a 222 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 3: little jealous of the power that Putin wields and how 223 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 3: it isn't restricted by nerdy constitutional rules the same way 224 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 3: Trump's power is. Whatever the reason he's always been unusually 225 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,719 Speaker 3: disposed to give Putain the benefit of the doubt and 226 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 3: to not give America's democratic allies the benefit of the doubt. 227 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,439 Speaker 3: And that is what we're seeing play out with Russia 228 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 3: and Ukraine right now. 229 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 2: Final question for you, Klinch She. I know you don't 230 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 2: have a crystal ball, and these things are very hard 231 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: to predict, especially when you've got a wildly unpredictable US 232 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 2: president in Donald Trump. But today is the third anniversary 233 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Where do you think things 234 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: will be at for twelve months from now? Do you 235 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: think the war will still be raging on? 236 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 3: Again? Many caveats. I do not have a crystal ball, 237 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 3: I do not have anything resembling a crystal ball. I 238 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 3: have no idea, really, but I think the answer depends 239 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 3: largely on Europe and the extent to which it is 240 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 3: willing to step up and support Ukraine in the absence 241 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 3: and in defiance of the United States. We either get 242 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 3: a situation where Trump strikes a deal with Putin and 243 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 3: Ukraine protests to it, but Europe ends up sort of 244 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 3: meekly accepting it anyway, or we get a situation where 245 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 3: Europe defies Trump and says, no, we reject the deal 246 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 3: you've struck with Putin. We are going to keep supporting 247 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 3: Ukraine off her own bat I mean that would accomplish 248 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 3: some of Trump's goal to be fair. I mean, he's 249 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 3: been going on for years about how Europe needs to 250 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 3: spend more on its own defense and needs to take 251 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 3: more responsibility. And I think he's got a fair point 252 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 3: when it comes to a lot of that stuff. But 253 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 3: we're going to see whether that comes to fruition at 254 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 3: all in the next year or so. It's very hard 255 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 3: to predict which of these scenarios is actually going to 256 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 3: play out. 257 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 5: Well. 258 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: Whatever happens, we'll be covering it on us dot com 259 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: dot a U. Sam Clench will be banging out the 260 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: articles on his keyboard. Thank you so much for taking 261 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 2: time out of your coverage to have a chat to 262 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 2: us today. 263 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 6: Pleasure. 264 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: That's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for 265 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: listening to from the Newsroom, Follow 266 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 6: Or subscribe to from the Newsroom wherever you get your podcasts.