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Speaker 1: Him, I boris and this is straight talk ty right. Welcome,

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Speaker 1: by the way, welcome back to Australia.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm just like right off the plane and

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Speaker 2: slightly jagged pretty much. Yeah, so thank you for the

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Speaker 2: coffee and the conversation.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing. You just got off a plane from Canada

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Speaker 1: and you look amazing like I got off a plane

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Speaker 1: yesterday from la and I look like jack shit, you

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Speaker 1: look terrific, mother god Like, how does that happen? How

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Speaker 1: does that happen?

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Speaker 2: Actually it was a bag of ice I put. I

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Speaker 2: had ice on my face.

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Speaker 1: You know the tricks. Yeah, you've got to after the years, right, well,

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Speaker 1: actually that might take Let's go back a little way back, way,

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Speaker 1: way way back up when I first knew of you.

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Speaker 1: Australian's first new of you. You're a model back in

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Speaker 1: those days. And and I didn't get surprised when you

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Speaker 1: walked into the studio because you are quite tall relative

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Speaker 1: to me anyway, and and I'm not particularly short, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not particularly tall. You're quite a tall woman. You

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Speaker 1: were a well known model in Australia and around the

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Speaker 1: place around the world. What is it like being pigeonholed

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Speaker 1: as a young girl, a young woman, I should say

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Speaker 1: as that person.

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Speaker 2: Well I'm not a young woman anymore, but I remember

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Speaker 2: what it was like. I remember when my first novel

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Speaker 2: came out in nineteen ninety nine. It was called Fetish.

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Speaker 2: It hit Australia first, and.

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Speaker 1: This right pod by the way, Yeah that's.

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Speaker 2: Right, nineteen ninety nine we launched at the Police and

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Speaker 2: Justice Museum. It was like a highlight of my life

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Speaker 2: because I'd wanted to be a published novelist since I

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Speaker 2: was a little kid. And what immediately happened was this

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Speaker 2: rumor campaign that my books couldn't have possibly been written

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Speaker 2: by me because I was model. So there was this

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Speaker 2: kind of question about whether I could string words together

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Speaker 2: because people take my photograph and it was very surreal

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Speaker 2: at the time. I think when I'd been working as

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Speaker 2: a model to pay the bills, I hadn't really considered

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Speaker 2: how people would take that as meaning so much more.

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Speaker 2: You know that being photographed means you can't do these

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Speaker 2: other things. And of course a lot of models I

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Speaker 2: worked with putting themselves through college and doing all kinds

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Speaker 2: of other things to pay, you know, and modeling to

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Speaker 2: pay the rent. But there are you know, stereotypes around

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Speaker 2: people like that. I was blonde at the time, a

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Speaker 2: model in my twenties, you know, I fit a few

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Speaker 2: stereotypes at once, and so I remember being told by

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Speaker 2: a producer at one point, Oh, you're the dumb blonde

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Speaker 2: who isn't and going like what does that even mean?

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Speaker 2: Like this is so bizarre to me. So it was

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Speaker 2: a strange introduction to publishing in that way. But my

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Speaker 2: fifteenth book is coming out later this year and it

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Speaker 2: feels like another lifetime ago that those rumors were there.

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Speaker 2: And indeed, a polygraph test I don't know if you

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Speaker 2: know about that one mark. So polygraph, of course is

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Speaker 2: a lie detective test. And when my second book Split

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Speaker 2: launched in two thousand and two in Australia, I was

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Speaker 2: dared by a journalist, pretty fabulous woman actually at the

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Speaker 2: Australian newspaper to take a polygraph test to prove that

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Speaker 2: I write my own books. So I ended up being

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Speaker 2: polygraph tested by you know, a cop who normally you know,

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Speaker 2: he tests like suspected rapists and pedophiles and me a

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Speaker 2: suspected author. And I had the armbands, big momonometer on

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Speaker 2: and the newmotubes and the you know little thing on

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Speaker 2: the end of the finger that measures your perspiration. And

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Speaker 2: off we went and I ended up with a thirty

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Speaker 2: three page report saying guilty is charged. I write books

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Speaker 2: and that was my strange introduction to publishing, the publishing

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Speaker 2: world in Australia.

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Speaker 1: You are born in Canada, yes, but you lived in Australia.

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Speaker 1: You're a dual citizen. Let's call it. Yeah, that's crime. Yes.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we know about your modeling career. You've

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Speaker 1: sort of given us a bit of an update on it.

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Speaker 1: But what is it about you? Because you just mentioned

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Speaker 1: the place you launched your first book? What was Police

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Speaker 1: Injustice Museum? Museum is down Circular Key. That's great and

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Speaker 1: not many people who probably know about it. But it's

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Speaker 1: a museum. I remember, so I would to walk past

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Speaker 1: me and took my office out that way in the city.

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Speaker 1: But the Police and Justice Museum is I think it's

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Speaker 1: an old courthouse, yes, and there would have been a

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Speaker 1: gil in the back of it. And it was probably

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Speaker 1: one of the first police court, one of the first courthouses, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, in those days judges or the magistrates

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Speaker 1: were police. Probably in Sydney. What is it that it

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Speaker 1: gives you a fascination about crime. That's a really good question.

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Speaker 2: I guess I'm interested in the light and the dark.

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in what.

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Speaker 2: Is illuminated and what is left in shadow. And I

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Speaker 2: think to really understand the human condition, to get a

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Speaker 2: rule well, to be alive, and to really know what's

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Speaker 2: going on around you, you actually do have to look

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Speaker 2: at both. So I think most people would agree I'm

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Speaker 2: a pretty positive, upbeat person, but I still write a

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Speaker 2: about some quite heavy topics at times, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's just simply being real, being in the moment, being present.

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Speaker 2: If I only wrote all kind of love and light

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Speaker 2: and there was no shadow, I don't think it would

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Speaker 2: be as real or as interesting. And when I write

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Speaker 2: about dark subjects, I want to have my facts right,

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Speaker 2: so I go a long way from my research. I

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Speaker 2: spend time with police officers. I've spent time with FBI agents.

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Speaker 2: I've been to Quantico. Quantico is the FBI academy that's

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Speaker 2: in the US, so I spent time at the actual academy.

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Speaker 2: Those of you who like Silence of Lambs would recognize

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Speaker 2: that was I think, at the time, certainly the only

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Speaker 2: film that was shot allowed to shoot actually at the Academy,

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Speaker 2: so some of those scenes are actually shot there at Quantico.

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Speaker 2: I'm just fascinated by what goes on behind the scenes,

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Speaker 2: and I don't want to have a view of life

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Speaker 2: that is artificial. I want to know what's going on.

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Speaker 1: It's actually when you talk about the darker light, just

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Speaker 1: parked light over here for a second. Just I'm actually

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Speaker 1: fascinated by dark And you know, I've got friends I

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Speaker 1: grew up with. You know, some of them been to Jaile,

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Speaker 1: some of who sort of participate in all sorts of

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Speaker 1: unusual things. And where I grew up, which was a

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Speaker 1: long way out west, it was unusual to have these

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Speaker 1: types of friends. A lot of them were had terrible

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Speaker 1: upbringings and stuff like that. In fact, I've had a

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Speaker 1: few of them on my show where they talked about,

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Speaker 1: you know, being and Jeff murder and stuff of that.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons they they believe that they were

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Speaker 1: in this position is because a lot of these guys,

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Speaker 1: these the men who I have had involved with, were

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Speaker 1: actually abused as children to suffered abusic lives. And I

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Speaker 1: see that as the dark and that abuse can just

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Speaker 1: repeat itself.

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Speaker 2: The cycle of violence is very serious.

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Speaker 1: And it's nearly like they're doing the only thing. And

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Speaker 1: a lot of them were. Unfortunately I didn't never have

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to be educated. Some of them don't even

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Speaker 1: read it right. Still, and I always find and fascinating

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Speaker 1: that society is prepared to make judgment on these individuals

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Speaker 1: as opposed to.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think if you commit murderer, it's probably fair

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Speaker 2: to have a judgment on that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but not but where I'm probably wrong at You're right,

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Speaker 1: they can't be doing it because of a dangerous society,

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Speaker 1: but may make judgment on their character as opposed to

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Speaker 1: sort of trying and understand what is it that made

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Speaker 1: them this person. Now I'm not saying I'm giving you,

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Speaker 1: I'm not giving you any excuses at all. But what

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Speaker 1: I find fascinating is what made them that person. That's

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Speaker 1: the dark that I'm very interested in. Is that something

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Speaker 1: that sort of fascinates you like or are you more

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Speaker 1: interested in learning about it as opposed to your I'm

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Speaker 1: just fascinated, But are you interested in learning about it

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Speaker 1: and then telling us about it?

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Speaker 2: I think all of the above. I'm interested in the

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Speaker 2: human experience, so I'm interested in what makes people tick.

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Speaker 2: I'm interested in the things that people still I'm interested

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Speaker 2: in their stories, and I guess if you look at

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Speaker 2: the last twenty five years of my advocacy, I have

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Speaker 2: been very interested and focused on survivors and kind of

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Speaker 2: like people who have pulled themselves up so they could

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Speaker 2: have got caught in that cycle of violence, and there

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Speaker 2: would be lots of reasons, you know, we know the stats,

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Speaker 2: as you've pointed out, that there's this cycle, but they

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Speaker 2: chose to do something different, and I find something in

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Speaker 2: that very inspiring, you know. And I think also that

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Speaker 2: we need to look at the fact that life is

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Speaker 2: in all roses. I love roses, but life is sadly

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Speaker 2: not all roses. And we shouldn't be pigeonholed by something

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Speaker 2: that someone else did to us. We shouldn't be pigeonholed

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Speaker 2: by the biggest tragedy that comes through our lives. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: we shouldn't necessarily be pigeonholed by something that we did

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Speaker 2: that was wrong that we've learned from we've maybe done

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Speaker 2: our time for so again, not making any excuses, but

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Speaker 2: it's all too easy to us dismiss people, and actually

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Speaker 2: they often have a lot to teach us, and that

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Speaker 2: I think is very interesting.

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Speaker 1: Well, in your time studying this sort of stuff and

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Speaker 1: probably in viewing these types of individuals, I'm sure you've

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Speaker 1: had exposure to them. What have you learned that you

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Speaker 1: might better share with us? But if you learned about

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Speaker 1: the difference between someone who's just lived that whole life

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Speaker 1: doing that stuff, and you know, probably has a fair explanation,

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Speaker 1: it's not an excuse, but an explanation as to why

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Speaker 1: they're that person compared to the people who are able

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Speaker 1: to survive the trauma that they're going to choose to

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Speaker 1: do early on and been able to turn themselves around

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Speaker 1: and not going down that track. What have you learned?

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Speaker 1: What's the difference to decide to choose I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to be that person.

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Speaker 2: Kindness and compassion is such a strength, So we're looking

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Speaker 2: at really the strongest people out there are the people

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Speaker 2: who allow themselves to continue to feel to be vulnerable,

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Speaker 2: to receive love even if they weren't given that as

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Speaker 2: a kid. You know, that's brave and that is strength

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Speaker 2: to me. And I think that often in our mainstream culture,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're given a certain particularly with masculinity, we're

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Speaker 2: given a certain snapshot of what that's supposed to look like,

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Speaker 2: and we don't often give enough space in that for vulnerability, emotion,

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Speaker 2: quiet strength instead of brute strength. Right, So I like

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Speaker 2: to kind of illuminate that part of it. And when

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Speaker 2: you read my books, you'll find that there's all kinds

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Speaker 2: of characters as usually strong central female characters, there's also

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Speaker 2: amazing men and men who do evil things. And it's

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Speaker 2: the ones that are strong, often silent types not always strong,

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Speaker 2: and they are choosing to protect others, they're choosing to

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Speaker 2: do the right thing. Those are the you know, those

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Speaker 2: are the ones that really make things change in the book.

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Speaker 2: You know, the women who choose to keep standing up,

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Speaker 2: who choose to survive, find ways to survive. And also

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Speaker 2: the men who are there is like Detective Inspector Hank

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Speaker 2: Cooper as Andy Flynn from my first series. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're really an important part of making turning the tide,

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Speaker 2: making things safer for the community, and I think that

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Speaker 2: needs to be held up.

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Speaker 1: Are you in that process being an idealist? I mean,

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Speaker 1: is it someone who tire you an idealist that's what

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Speaker 1: where you would like it to be, or do you

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Speaker 1: think this is predominantly the case it is? Oh, it's

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Speaker 1: not the case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh no, no, no, it's not the case. It

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Speaker 2: starts tell us otherwise. But we have to still draw

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Speaker 2: a line, right, Who are we as a community? Who

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Speaker 2: are we as a nation? Who are we as a people?

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Speaker 2: If we don't draw a line, if we don't say

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Speaker 2: this is what's okay and this is what isn't okay?

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Speaker 1: You know, have rules, have rules, but also ethics, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know, And I think ethics are very important and

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Speaker 2: it's better actually for the individual if they make those choices,

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Speaker 2: because it's better for them. Their lives are going to

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Speaker 2: be better by being a better person. I'm not saying

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Speaker 2: a perfect person. It's perfect, and I'm not either, but

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Speaker 2: making those choices and drawing those lines. The moment we

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Speaker 2: decide that nothing has meaning, you can do whatever you want,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. You know, you've got Yeah, but you've

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Speaker 2: also got a kind of a degradation of the human spirit.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think that I don't think it's helpful

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Speaker 2: to kind of hold that up as a you know,

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Speaker 2: as being okay, you shouldn't normalize that.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting. I would mind as well just exploring that

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Speaker 1: a little bit. You said ethics, and you purposely didn't

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Speaker 1: say morals because morals seems to be associated with standards

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Speaker 1: sort of that type of stuff. Am I correct? I mean,

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Speaker 1: in just assessing what you just said, is are you

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Speaker 1: sort of parking morals over there? That's not really were

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Speaker 1: to raise. You're talking about ethics.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think it's starting to get into semantics when

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Speaker 2: we when we do that, because again it's like which

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Speaker 2: you know, which morals, which ethics are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: But I think we all understand what we mean by

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Speaker 2: being ethical. I think that's fairly clear. And I don't need, say,

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Speaker 2: a religion to tell me what's right or wrong, because

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Speaker 2: I can feel and know that the ethics tell me

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Speaker 2: that actually hurting someone's not not great and it's also

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Speaker 2: not great for me, and it's not great for you know,

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Speaker 2: my human spirit. And I do believe we have a spirit, right,

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Speaker 2: I don't need to say what that I don't know

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Speaker 2: what that is. I'm not the person who can tell

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Speaker 2: you what that is. But there's something, and it matters

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Speaker 2: that we honor that, that we live with dignity and

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Speaker 2: with ethics. So yeah, I'm not sure about morals and religion.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's a huge conversation. I'm not a theologian,

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Speaker 2: but I will say that you don't need to come

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Speaker 2: from a particular religious background to know that there is

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Speaker 2: there's a way to be that's kinder. There's a way

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Speaker 2: to be that's more ethical, and you can just in

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Speaker 2: your imperfect way try.

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Speaker 1: When you say kinder, kinder as in kindness, it seems

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Speaker 1: to me to invoke things like that are basic virtues,

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Speaker 1: you know. And you know, when I was growing up

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Speaker 1: as a kid, virtues were discussed at lunchtime on Sundays

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Speaker 1: because there was nothing else for us to do watch.

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Speaker 1: I did have television, we didn't have intimated to have anything.

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Speaker 1: So family would older people talk to us younger people

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Speaker 1: about virtues They say, you know, but they're usually put

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Speaker 1: in a sentence. You know, he or she's toughest tea

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Speaker 1: you know, like good resilience, things about resilience, as you say, kindness, gratitude,

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Speaker 1: those sorts of things. Where in your books do you

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Speaker 1: try to take us down a journey from ethics and

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Speaker 1: into virtue. In other words, that person is quite virtuous

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Speaker 1: without saying those words, but you know, you're trying to

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Speaker 1: tell us that this person is quite virtuous, and are

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Speaker 1: you signaling what where you think society should be or

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Speaker 1: where it would be a nice place for society to be.

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Speaker 1: Is that the whole purpose of your books or is

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Speaker 1: it more just entertainment.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's entertainment, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 2: human experience. You know. I've written now fifteen books, and

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Speaker 2: all of them are storytelling. They're all about people's lives.

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Speaker 2: They're all about regular people. I tend not to write

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Speaker 2: about generals and world leaders. I tend to write about

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Speaker 2: people who are impacted by the decisions of those those people,

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Speaker 2: or people who are impacted by you know, the long

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Speaker 2: shadow of war, by crime on the streets. I'm writing

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Speaker 2: about those types of people. Are they virtual? I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever written that word in my books,

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Speaker 2: because again, when you get into virtue and morals, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's connotations there depending on you know, where you come

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Speaker 2: from as to what that means. I think ethics is

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Speaker 2: a is still not a It's not a word that

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Speaker 2: triggers people. I think virtue does a virtue signaling ideas,

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Speaker 2: the virtues and the sins and all this sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: Let's just like pull all that out of it. It's

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Speaker 2: actually really good to be a good person and just

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Speaker 2: be a decent person and try and you're not always

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Speaker 2: going to get it right, but there are, you know,

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Speaker 2: lines you can draw. I think being a bully is

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Speaker 2: not okay. Obviously hurting people is not okay. So using

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Speaker 2: violence to get what you want is not okay. But

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Speaker 2: there are other ways to negotiate, There other ways to

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Speaker 2: be and to contribute, and those are the things that

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Speaker 2: I think it's worthwhile showing. But resilience that you mentioned before,

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Speaker 2: and know that the key to so much of my work.

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Speaker 1: It's about resilience, About your resilience or that's the or

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Speaker 1: is that the message to come from your work?

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Speaker 2: That is a common thread of the central characters in

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Speaker 2: all of my books, And it is also something that

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Speaker 2: I think it's fair for me to say that I

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Speaker 2: share as well as a quality.

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Speaker 1: So your books are fiction, how do you decide who

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Speaker 1: your fictional characters are going to be? I mean? Do

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Speaker 1: you you base it on a model of a person

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Speaker 1: that you've met or someone or a model of a

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Speaker 1: number of people you met? I mean, and do you

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Speaker 1: actually sit there and sort of straw man the individual

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Speaker 1: that this is your heroin and of the story, and

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Speaker 1: you also depict in the story. Do you build a

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Speaker 1: villain and a heroin? I mean, is that the game.

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Speaker 2: To me storytelling is about It's not quite as black

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Speaker 2: and white, so there's always going to be grays for

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Speaker 2: the characters. Otherwise it's boring. I'm not doing cartoons. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's some amazing cartoons and comics and graphic No they're

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Speaker 2: I'm looking for more nuanced. That's the substance of novel writing.

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Speaker 2: It gives you the opportunity to really get in there.

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Speaker 2: So it's never going to be black and white, and

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Speaker 2: they have to have a lot more substance than a

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Speaker 2: straw man, right or a straw woman. But what I

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Speaker 2: do is often start with the characters and I think,

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Speaker 2: what if this sort of person and this sort of

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Speaker 2: person clashed, what if they met, and what if they

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Speaker 2: met in a very dynamic time. So The Italian Secret,

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Speaker 2: which is my latest book, it's not out here for

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Speaker 2: a few months. It's said in nineteen forty eight, you have,

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Speaker 2: you know, the hangover around the world of a World war.

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Speaker 2: You have the political, economic, cultural.

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Speaker 1: Fallout of all of that, particular in Italy at the time.

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Speaker 2: Particularly in Italy at the time, and we have not

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Speaker 2: had books, I think, particularly in this genre, that have

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Speaker 2: focused on the fallout for people who are part of

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Speaker 2: access countries and didn't ask to be balmbed by literally everyone.

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Speaker 2: Right in Naples were bombed by both sides and living

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Speaker 2: in the underground. So it's that looking at real people,

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Speaker 2: how these events affect real people, and then imagining one

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Speaker 2: type of person another coming together for better or worse,

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Speaker 2: and setting off a chain of events. That's for me

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Speaker 2: where it begins and as I.

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Speaker 1: Write it changes.

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Speaker 2: So for me, writing is a bit like I imagine

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Speaker 2: archaeology to be so, rather than a paint by numbers

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Speaker 2: or a kind of a way of like coding. I

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Speaker 2: work very much on feel. I've got a lump of clay,

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Speaker 2: there's some ideas, and I shape it, and I shape

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Speaker 2: it for like a year and a half until it

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Speaker 2: feels real to me that the characters speak to me,

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Speaker 2: the characters are alive, and I really feel something when

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Speaker 2: I'm rereading the story, and it can impact my readers

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Speaker 2: in a similar way. That's how I create. It's less methodical.

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Speaker 2: Is very disciplined, but less methodical, less plot driven than

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Speaker 2: some other writers. But I think that it works out

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Speaker 2: pretty well, and after twenty five years, it's still the

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Speaker 2: way that I work in books.

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Speaker 1: Do you is the subplotting of characteristics of your characters,

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Speaker 1: in other words, in nuancing them. Is that to keep

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Speaker 1: me off the trial? Like in other words, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't want Mark as a reader to I think

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Speaker 1: he's really got this person down patterns exactly what the

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Speaker 1: deal is, because I want my Mark might stop the

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Speaker 1: book reading because he might get you word.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, mostly I think of you when I do write

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Speaker 2: the character. I'm very worried about Mark and what you're

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Speaker 2: going to do. No, for me, it's not so much

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Speaker 2: an intentional manipulation.

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Speaker 1: I don't like manipulating me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you could be of you. But I mean

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Speaker 2: of readers, because there is a style of writing that's,

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Speaker 2: you know, a lot of plot twists, and we see

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Speaker 2: this in movies as well, where like there's like eight

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Speaker 2: plot twists at the end life. Nothing's really you know,

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Speaker 2: nothing's what you thought, and you know that can work.

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Speaker 2: But I'm not that kind of writer. It's not the

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Speaker 2: way my brain works. So what I want you to

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Speaker 2: do is to feel that the characters are real and

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Speaker 2: to empathize with them because I think compassionate empathy or

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Speaker 2: the natural result of learning about people.

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Speaker 1: So what was.

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Speaker 2: That person in Naples, you know, how did they survive

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Speaker 2: in the underground during the war while everything was bombarded

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Speaker 2: and their home was destroyed? And what about that private

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Speaker 2: investigator in Australia and Sydney post war, who you know

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Speaker 2: is very unpopular because she's a divorcee and she's a

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Speaker 2: woman in a man's field. And everybody wants the returned

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Speaker 2: soldiers to have jobs, but you know, women should get

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Speaker 2: back in the kitchen. What was it like for them?

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Speaker 2: And it doesn't kind of matter whether you're male or

401
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Speaker 2: female inside of politics. You are, how old you are,

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Speaker 2: whether you've got an Italian background and an Australian background,

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Speaker 2: you kind of go. I can walk a little bit

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Speaker 2: in their shoes just through this book. So there's plot,

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Speaker 2: and I think it mix for a better story when

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Speaker 2: you can do that.

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Speaker 1: Is the fiction reader the person of your book? Are they?

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Speaker 1: And I guess you understand these people better than anybody,

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Speaker 1: But they am entering in a form of voyeurism. In

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Speaker 1: other words, I'm never going to experience this in my life,

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Speaker 1: but I would really love to know what someone coming

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Speaker 1: out of World War two in forty eight in Naples,

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Speaker 1: how they actually survive their life? I mean, and how

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Speaker 1: much of you know? Is that a thing that people

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Speaker 1: do in the world, Like, it's not my go but

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Speaker 1: there must be people in the world who do this,

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Speaker 1: who live their life by reading books and maybe watching

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Speaker 1: movies and stuff like that or a series, but who

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Speaker 1: are actually really keen to know what it would be

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Speaker 1: like to be this person. Is that who you're writing

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Speaker 1: to or are you writing that to yourself? Oh?

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Speaker 2: I'm exploring characters and bringing them to life. It's a

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Speaker 2: creative pursuit. I don't think we can pigeonhole readers, just

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Speaker 2: like I don't think people who watch reality TV are mindless,

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Speaker 2: you know, drones watching something and voyeuristically living through others.

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Speaker 2: I think that people are a bit more complicated and

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Speaker 2: a bit more interesting than that.

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Speaker 1: Actually.

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Speaker 2: But books have a special ability to be time machines.

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Speaker 2: Books have a special ability to be you know, compassion

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Speaker 2: machines to be used for learning, but most of all

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Speaker 2: for entertainment. And that's what I'm writing. I'm writing to

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Speaker 2: engage a reader, and when I'm diving into dark territory,

434
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 2: when I'm touching on things like the Holocaust or destruction

435
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 2: of culture in Naples or whatever it is that I'm

436
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: bringing into a book fighting Nazis. I mean, that's what

437
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: my character does through a lot of her books. When

438
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 2: I'm when I'm looking into that, it's got to grip

439
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: the reader. You got to want to read it, and yeah,

440
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 2: you're gonna be touching on part of the stuff because

441
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 2: it's actually part of our.

442
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: Life and our world.

443
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 2: All of us have grandparents who were impacted in some way,

444
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 2: our families were impacted in some way, and so I

445
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: don't want to write about the small I actually want

446
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: to be able to look at the big picture but

447
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 2: personalize it with characters that I've frankly made up but

448
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 2: from an amalgam of real life people and characteristics. Billy

449
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: Walker my main character, for example, she's a private investigator

450
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: in Sydney, and she's kind of like if Philip Marlow

451
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 2: was ava Gardener, but she's a she's got touch of

452
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: you know, Virginia Hall, she's got a touch of Martha

453
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: Girl Horne, all these really interesting real life women of

454
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 2: the time, which is not any of them, but there's

455
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: a sense of a sense of the film noir women

456
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: we see in black and white, you know, the Laura

457
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 2: and Bacoles with their shoulder pads and their toughness, and

458
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: that's fun, but also it's touching on something real and

459
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 2: I think you always have to, you know, have your

460
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: finger on that is.

461
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: And we'll move on in my move. But I'm actually

462
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: intree boilists. But is writing fiction and you've done a

463
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: number of books, and you've really done one every two

464
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: years probably since your twenties, yea, on average? Is fiction

465
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: writing for you apart from being what you do in

466
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: terms of your business career, et cetera. Is it to

467
00:25:50,280 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 1: tease us to see what what excites human humans? I mean,

468
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: and obviously it is. But are you trying to find

469
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: out what excites us like especially when you talk about

470
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: the dark territory, you know, like dark characters. Or is

471
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: it just a business for you?

472
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 2: Oh God, if it was just a business for me,

473
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't be writing.

474
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: Novels because we know that much money it is not.

475
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: It is a very time intensive and it's you know,

476
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 2: last ask any artists of any sort, they're just not

477
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: going to it would not be smart to get into

478
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 2: it for the money. It's got to be where your

479
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 2: passion lie. Otherwise, honestly, you won't get through the writing

480
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 2: of a book, and you certainly won't be able to

481
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: sell it because it's hollow. You know, you can't do

482
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 2: it as a formula. There are times I wish that

483
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: I could, because I could be more prolific, you know,

484
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: but that's not what I'm about, not as an advocate,

485
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: which you know that work is free, and not as

486
00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 2: a novelist, and that work is modestly paid, even with

487
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: some success. I'm very grateful for I'm grateful that I

488
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 2: can continue to write because I continue to have readers

489
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 2: who want to buy my books, and without them, I

490
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to carve out the time to continue

491
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 2: to do what I love. I started writing when I

492
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: was ten from my classmates at elementary school, at Torque

493
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 2: Elementary and there's like loose leaf binders that were in

494
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: my dad's attic of you know, Stephen Kings style novelettes

495
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 2: and little stories that I wrote with cartoons in the

496
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 2: corner and little doodles and stuff. And I've just always

497
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: loved storytelling and to me as a documentary maker, as

498
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 2: a podcast maker, as an investigative journalist, as an author,

499
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 2: and as a speaker. It's really all about the best

500
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: medium for bringing that story to life. I actually don't

501
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: care if it's spoken word. If it's written word, I

502
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: can't act, so someone else have to do that for me.

503
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 2: But if it's me on the screen explaining something in

504
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 2: documentary like Tough Nuts Australia's Hardest Criminals, if it's a

505
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: podcast like The Men in the Balaklava, it's a criminal investigation,

506
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 2: or if it's a historical fiction book. There's different ways

507
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: to touch on what matters in the world. And sometimes

508
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,479
Speaker 2: it's through art and sometimes it's plain documentary telling, and

509
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: I think they're all valid, and so that is my passion,

510
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 2: I think, is to continue to tell people's stories, especially

511
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: I'm going to say the undertold stories.

512
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Undertold is the people that Are

513
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: they stories that people avoid or are they stories that

514
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: just haven't really surfaced? We just haven't told them enough.

515
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: I don't think we can say that women have avoided

516
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: having their stories told, but I think that women, particularly

517
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: when we're looking at the nineteen forties, it took a

518
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 2: long time to recognize women's contributions in world War two,

519
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: and we can extrapolate that out to all kinds of

520
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: situations for women generally. But isn't it kind of more

521
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 2: interesting as a reader too. We've seen a lot of

522
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: that period written about, we haven't seen it written about

523
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: in Australia. So international readers are very interested in my

524
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 2: books because they're set in Sydney, right, They're very interested

525
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,479
Speaker 2: in my books because hey, it's Naples. There were supposed

526
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 2: to be the bad guys, but now we've actually got

527
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: some understanding of what real people went through. Here's a

528
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 2: female private investigator. Did they exist?

529
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: Yes?

530
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: Is there a bunch of film noir about them or

531
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: a bunch of Golden age thriller novels about them?

532
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: No?

533
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: Their stories are undertold, but they still existed. And I

534
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: think that makes for frankly more interesting writing for me

535
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: as a person has to live with it for a

536
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: couple of years while I write it. But it makes

537
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: for more interesting reading as well. We're not just hearing

538
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: the same story.

539
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: You mentioned that, you mentioned what efficacy and you know,

540
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: when I was doing some reviews on you, human rights

541
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: is a big issue for you. Women's rights are big

542
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: issue for you. Probably maybe not so much women's rights.

543
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: But abuse of women's rights is probably a bigger, bigger

544
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: issue for you outside of your fiction writing. Where do

545
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: you sit on that now? What are you doing now

546
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: in relationion to your advocacy? What's advocacy work are you doing? Yeah?

547
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: Well, all types. So I've just recovered from complex regional

548
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: pain syndrome, which I'm in remission for.

549
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: But I can't ask you what is that? So?

550
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: Complex regional pain syndrome is a little understood severe pain condition.

551
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: It's believed to have neurological components, immune components, inflammatory components,

552
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 2: and it can result in amputation necessary amputation. It results

553
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: usually it's usually in a limb, and it can result

554
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: in the loss of that limb with a loss of.

555
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: Use of that limb as a result of the pain.

556
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: It's more complex than the pain, but the brain essentially,

557
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: I'm going to oversimplify it, but if you were to

558
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: imagine that the brain is cutting itself off from the

559
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: painful limb, that would get you some way to understanding

560
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: how it works. You have reduced circulation, or you have

561
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 2: a edma in huge amounts of circulation. It's very painful

562
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: for people and generally it's very difficult for them to

563
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 2: use the affected limb.

564
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: It is a recognized disease. Yes, it is. It's not

565
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,239
Speaker 1: something that's contentious. It's not.

566
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 2: No, it's not. Well, it's contentious in that people don't

567
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 2: know what causes it, so there's debate about the cause,

568
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: but there's no debate about the existence of it. And

569
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: it was first written about during the Civil War in fact,

570
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 2: so people who were you know, survived the trauma of

571
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: war would sometimes end up with these injuries, and that

572
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 2: had various names over the years.

573
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: So you had this. I still have it.

574
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: It's not curable, but I'm in remission so now I

575
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 2: can walk. Still working on getting my fitness back after

576
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: many years in a wheelchair. In fact, I had ripped

577
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: arms because I had a manual chair, so I was

578
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 2: like very limb to Hamilton, it was you know, I

579
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 2: kind of missed.

580
00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: My ripped biceps.

581
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 2: But it's really nice to be able to be upright

582
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: and to use my legs again and to be mobile.

583
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: So during that period I did a lot of disability

584
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 2: advocacy and a lot of pain advocacy, including here in

585
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 2: Australia and with Parliament, particularly on things like legalizing medical marijuana,

586
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: getting more people access to different, different options to handle

587
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: their pain, because pain management is a human right. Okay,

588
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: So now that I've recovered and I'm in remission, it's

589
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: not that disability issues don't matter to me.

590
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: They do.

591
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: It's just that people who are disabled right now are

592
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: better placed to have the spotlight on them to talk

593
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: about those issues. So what I am doing is continuing

594
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: my twenty some year advocacy on human rights and on

595
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: women's and girls' rights. And I have a podcast that

596
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: dropped just this week around the time of International Women's

597
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 2: Day called There's No Place Like Home After She Leaves.

598
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: It's season three of an award winning podcast, and it's

599
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: focusing on domestic and family violence, which can happen to

600
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: everyone and and does happen to all kinds of people

601
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: in Australia, but it's very often, you know, disproportionately affecting

602
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: women and kids, and telling those stories is very harrowing

603
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 2: but important. So a woman is still killed in Australia

604
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: every nine days by a partner or former partner every

605
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: nine days, every nine days, and in fact last year

606
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 2: it was every four days for a period.

607
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: Is that every get reported?

608
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's under that's that's reported, but it's I mean,

609
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: the newspapers are on occasionally, but only really on International

610
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: Women's Day. It seems to me that that's like the

611
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: one day we all kind of look at this tragic

612
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: fact and kids also, you know, kids are very heavily

613
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: affected by this. So in the first episode, for example,

614
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: we're talking to doctor Anne O'Neill and she was shot

615
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: by her her husban and who she'd separated from, shot shot,

616
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: and he murdered their two children in bed at the

617
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: same time, shot her and then himself, And it's this

618
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: sort of it's this sort of situation which we can

619
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 2: do more to reduce the risk of by allowing avenues

620
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 2: for women to get out of get safely out of

621
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: dangerous situations. And in this case, she had separated, she

622
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: had you know, they're always asked like, why didn't you leave?

623
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 2: She did leave, but that's often the most dangerous time.

624
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 2: And that's the focus of this podcast is kind of

625
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: debunking that myth that will women just stick around and

626
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: actually recognizing the dangers and what we can do to

627
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: help them. And some of that is financial, some of

628
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: that is social, and just I guess recognizing the cues

629
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 2: and doing more for those around us who are in

630
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: a vulnerable situation.

631
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: It's interesting you you should mention that to me because

632
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: some just brought to you of I did not podcast

633
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: with somebody and Julia Morris, and Julie was telling me

634
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: that when she got divorced from her husband, she discovered

635
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: that nothing was in her name. Everything was in his name.

636
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 1: And I just want to ask you what you think

637
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: about this, because one of the banks came in which

638
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: I thought was fantastic and actually sat down with her,

639
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: So a bank other than the one that her and

640
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: husband were banking with. I won't say the name of

641
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: the bank, but they actually offered to through her lawyer,

642
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: to come and sit with her and show her how

643
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: to download of the apps set up the account. You know,

644
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: she'd been in the income owner, in the business all

645
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: their married lives. He was a stay at home dad,

646
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: but he managed everything, if you know what I mean,

647
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: behind the scenes in terms of money's coming in, money's

648
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: going out. And she had no idea how this was

649
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: going to work. And do you think it's important in

650
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: this environment, just in terms of women becoming on their

651
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: own and women having the ability to go out, go

652
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: away from the domestic environment, whether it's violent or whether

653
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: it's just not working, and perhaps take the kids with them.

654
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: How important is it for corporations, banks and all those

655
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 1: people we interact with to actually to be preemptive and

656
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: go and say, hey, why don't I come and see

657
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: you and I'll show you how to fix this up

658
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: as soon as leaving them to do the best.

659
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: I think it's extremely important and I'm glad you raised it.

660
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: Financial abuse as it's called a big factor in a

661
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 2: lot of abusive relationships. So it may well be this

662
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 2: controlling aspect, and often it's not even so much that

663
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 2: the woman does. Sometimes she will know, sometimes she doesn't know.

664
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: But even if she knows they're controlling it, there's punishment

665
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: or more abuse if they try to intervene in that

666
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 2: or if they question it. So you've got a very

667
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: dangerous situation, and it's going to be something that prevents

668
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 2: a woman from taking herself or herself and the kids

669
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 2: out of a dangerous situation because they literally they don't

670
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 2: have somewhere to go, they don't have money to access,

671
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 2: and it's just another form of control. So some banks

672
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: are onto this and they have programs in Canada as well.

673
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,720
Speaker 2: And as we said, I'm a Canadian Australian dual citizen.

674
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 2: There are some programs where there's money that can be

675
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: accessed with certain parameters, obviously within twenty four hours. So

676
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 2: when the request is made, it's like, this is an emergency.

677
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: I need to get to a safe place, usually a

678
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 2: safe place that the perpetrator or abuser or a partner

679
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: does not know about, right and it needs to happen

680
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 2: now because we know that the majority of those women

681
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 2: who are murdered by a current or former partner have

682
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: either separated or they have started making plans to or

683
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 2: announced such. That's actually the majority. So this is something

684
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 2: the podcast focuses on in the financial aspect of that

685
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 2: is actually something we shouldn't underestimate.

686
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: Should governments get involved in, because I think if we

687
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: just leave it, advocacy is really important at starting point,

688
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: someone has to talk about it, and a podcast like this,

689
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: we need policies. Well that's what it's going to say.

690
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: But you're doing. What you're doing is not going to

691
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: change anythink it might prompt something we need ask you do.

692
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: We need governments to say, well, here's our policy in

693
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: relation to this. And by the way, we're going to

694
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: make it okay for the bank to breach confidentiality because

695
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: banks will say, well, hang on a minute, you know

696
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: the accounts in the name of the husband. We're worried

697
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 1: that if we give you some information or we let

698
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: you access that money, we're going to get sued by

699
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 1: that individual or his lawyer.

700
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 2: But what about a fund that's put aside for emergencies

701
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: like this, that isn't actually from that pool of funds,

702
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: but recognizes that whatever pool of funds, there is something

703
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: that both partners have a rate to. So if she

704
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: can't get to it, it doesn't matter right now. What

705
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 2: matters if she stays alive and stay alive and we

706
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: can get that money back later. As opposed to going like,

707
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: oh we need to you know, give access and go

708
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 2: through all these different there's a way to simplify it.

709
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 2: Get them out now, get them safe now, and that

710
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 2: needs to be prioritized. There's a there's a leaving home

711
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: program in Canada, for example, that does that within a

712
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 2: twenty four hour period. There are some banks here in

713
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: Australia who are really actively looking at this and have

714
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: opened up the possibility to just come and get you

715
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 2: some help some assessment, as you mentioned, and this is

716
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: really important, but we need government policies and we know

717
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 2: we've really let women down as well in terms of

718
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: you know, safe houses, places to go. They don't, you know,

719
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: most of the positions are already taken. For the most part.

720
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 2: There's wait lists for people to actually get out of

721
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 2: the house and have somewhere to stay. So on the

722
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 2: one hand, we want to say it's wonderful to be

723
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: a mom. We love kids, so we want great families

724
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 2: to stick together. But on the other hand, when things

725
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 2: get tough, there's nowhere for them to go, and we

726
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: need to provide that support because they haven't been, you know,

727
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: having nine to five jobs.

728
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: They've been caring for others. You just reminded me of something.

729
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: But in the nineties, the only reason I know because

730
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: I was helping them out a bit. But there was

731
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: a village, it's called the Vincentin Village running but the

732
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 1: Vincente Village is down not far from where we are here.

733
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: Were in dulling Us. It was down at eas Sydney

734
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: and it was an old building. But they the ladies

735
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: who worked there told me that their busiest time for

736
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: single mums who were escaping an abusive relationship, whatever it

737
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: may have been, who came with their kids, and usually

738
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: they came with the kids of just that nothing, just whatever,

739
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 1: the clothes they had on and the shoes they had on,

740
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: and was the busiest time was Christmas time, around the

741
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: christ period, And of course you know that they had

742
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: no money. I mean looking for help to help these

743
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: families out.

744
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 2: And if you don't have a refuge for them to go.

745
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: To, it's a refuge.

746
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: If you don't have a refuge, or you don't have

747
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 2: a program that allows them to get into a motel

748
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: quickly or some other way, because a lot of them

749
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 2: have been isolated as well, so that financial abuse is

750
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: one form of very important control right, but also separation

751
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 2: from family, friends and isolation is often a tactic used

752
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 2: by abusers as well. So they really don't have somewhere

753
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: to go. We need to make sure that they do,

754
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 2: otherwise we end up seeing them on the front page

755
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: of the paper with another tragedy. And we've all seen

756
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 2: far too many of those, so it is avoidable. Maybe

757
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 2: not in every circumstance, but those numbers are far too

758
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 2: much in every single one of these lives matters, And

759
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: I think that we can do it, just do a lot.

760
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: More, you know, one of these And one of the

761
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: things I've noticed because I've been doing it, look at

762
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: helping him out, Chris. A lot of times there's kids

763
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: who don't even be a runners or you know ic

764
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 1: go and my sons and I we used to trying

765
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: and help them out and give them some money by

766
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: shoes or stuff. But one of the changes I've noticed from

767
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six when I first started to twenty twenty

768
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,760
Speaker 1: four last year is that I now see less Australians,

769
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: like what would be considered a normal Australian, you know,

770
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: like you know, some of an English background, English don't

771
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: smear or whatever it is. I'm now noticing that a

772
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 1: lot of these individuals who are going to this particular refuge,

773
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: refuge the refuge now moved, it's in Crown Street. But

774
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 1: foreign people, people come in from another country.

775
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 2: If you've got a multicultural city. We do know that

776
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 2: immigrant women or immigrant families experience more abuse.

777
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: Yeah totally, you know that.

778
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Indigenous women experience more abuse. So I think it

779
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: just depends on who's in that local community, and we

780
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 2: know that they're going to be more vulnerable if they've

781
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 2: come from overseas, they don't know people, they may have

782
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 2: less at their disposal, less less support, less financial.

783
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: Support, they don't know the bank, they probably don't Misspeak

784
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: English very well. And it seems to me that there's

785
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: a lot more of that going on now. And I

786
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: actually went through and you can nearly look at the

787
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: immigration policy of Australia relative to who I was seeing.

788
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 1: And I think back at now over a thirty year period,

789
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: the types of people who were seeking refuge at around

790
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: this period that I never got involved with the Chris's period.

791
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: They would give me a call, but I'm sure it

792
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: happens all year round. But I've actually I can actually

793
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: see the different types of nationalities coming through the place.

794
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 1: And isolation. Used to use the word isolation. If you're

795
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: a refugee from another country and you come here and

796
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: you're in a bad relationship and you've got to leave,

797
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: you're actually more isolated than anybody else. You don't know anybody, that's.

798
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 2: Right, And the risk of fatalities is even higher for

799
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 2: any group where they are more isolated. And so that

800
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: is often women who are from an immigrant background, women

801
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: who are indigenous, women who come from a lower socioeconomic group.

802
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 2: It can impact anyone but those particular groups. The stats

803
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: are staggering and tragic, and you know it's it's the women,

804
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 2: but also and sometimes men. But it's the women for

805
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 2: the most part who bear the brunt of this and

806
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 2: their kids.

807
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: Why is Tara Rey so interested in this? What is

808
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: it that makes you choose this mission because it matters?

809
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: Is it because you can make a difference perhaps, or

810
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: you want to make it? Think it matters? I think

811
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: telling them and I support one with one such refuge,

812
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: and I have done for thirty years. But I think

813
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: I think that it matters. I don't advocate for it,

814
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: and I just well, I'm.

815
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 2: Glad you are right now because you're shining a light

816
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 2: and allowing space on your program to talk about it.

817
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 2: So you are talking about it right now, and that

818
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 2: makes a difference. You might not be well placed to

819
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 2: speak to the experiences of women who have, you know,

820
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:05,479
Speaker 2: had an abusive relationship. But I think that if I'm

821
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 2: given a spotlight, I can use the profile I have

822
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 2: in ways that are useful.

823
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: That's good. What else is the use of it.

824
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: I've always felt that it was a Dalai lama who said,

825
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: I live. I'm quoting the Dalai Lama, but he said

826
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 2: that the purpose of life is to be happy and useful, right,

827
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 2: and I think, you know, I think that's going to

828
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 2: be sometimes. It's going to be a one on one

829
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: with someone. Sometimes, if you're lucky enough and privileged enough

830
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 2: to have a microphone, you might be doing something like this.

831
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 2: But I'm just talking about stuff that's real. It's not

832
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 2: you know, this is the real stuff. My fiction is

833
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: informed by it. My fiction is my work. This is

834
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 2: just talking about real stuff. And if it makes some difference,

835
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: it helps to turn the spotlight a little bit towards

836
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 2: something that's been in the shadow that maybe needs illuminating,

837
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 2: then then great. And when people are no longer interested

838
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: in talking to me, I hope someone else is doing

839
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: it too. And there's already lots of people doing it.

840
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 2: But I mean, we need a lot of people to

841
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 2: talk about these things because they're not fun subjects, they're

842
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 2: not entertaining, and it's hard to accept that this is

843
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 2: happening in our communities. But yeah, we've got to talk

844
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: about it.

845
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,240
Speaker 1: The podcast that you're doing now, said the new podcast. Yes,

846
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 1: there's no place like home, there's more to it no place.

847
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,240
Speaker 2: There's no place like home after she leaves Season three,

848
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: and what we're focusing on in this season is specifically

849
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 2: what happens after separation because there is this confused idea.

850
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 2: I mean, the women are often asked and why don't

851
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 2: you just leave? You know, or we'll see some tragedy

852
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 2: that's taken place. I won't even mention the horrific things

853
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: we've seen on the front page, and they'll just say,

854
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 2: why didn't she just leave? Well, I'll tell you why.

855
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 2: It's in the podcast. We've got the survivors of these

856
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 2: incidents talking about it. We know the stories of those

857
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 2: who didn't survive that. We're talking to police, we're talking

858
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 2: to experts, and they'll explain that this is the most

859
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 2: dangerous time is actually when you leave, they double down

860
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 2: on the control if they're an abuser, and that will

861
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 2: often be using violence. So we need to stop the

862
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 2: victim blaming there and kind of the question of like, oh,

863
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 2: why didn't you just leave? Like it's so easy when

864
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 2: we know the stats don't support that attitude, and we

865
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 2: should we should do more to support people who are

866
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 2: in those vulnerable situations rather than questioning like, oh, why

867
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: didn't you leave last week before you know this tragedy

868
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 2: occurred with your kids.

869
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: We're an election circle right now and in Canada too,

870
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: and you guys, of course, are battling your fiftieth state

871
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: just below us, take control of you.

872
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: Thank you for Yeah, it's our for teenth Province are overblown.

873
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 2: Fourteenth Province just south of where I live, like I

874
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 2: mean literally by a few miles, so I'm very close

875
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: to the border there, and things are tense, things are

876
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 2: really tense. So yeah, there's like open discussions of invading Canada,

877
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 2: like we're you know, the current administration in America has

878
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: taken their closest ally, their closest trade partner, and said

879
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to cripple you economically unless you let me

880
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 2: take over your sovereignty, become a non country and become

881
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 2: part of the US. So that is galvanized Canadians across

882
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 2: the political spectrum. If you're a conservative, you don't mess

883
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 2: with sovereignty, you don't mess with the national character and say, okay,

884
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 2: now we suddenly don't exist as a country that's been

885
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 2: around for so long, and as a progressive. It's also

886
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 2: appalling on a variety of levels as well, So literally

887
00:48:55,280 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 2: the whole country is united. Well it is, especially in

888
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 2: these divisive political times. It's certainly brought us all together

889
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 2: and it's it's scary.

890
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: Times given our political landscape. Or the election has not

891
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: been announced, but clearly with their own election mode. Do

892
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: you think this your show, your podcast which both has

893
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: been dropped as released it just was released, yes, which

894
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,439
Speaker 1: like the first apps, Lady been out there we find

895
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: on Spotify and all the usual places, all the good places,

896
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 1: I guess. So given that, do you think that it's

897
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: something that the two contenders should be considering.

898
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,919
Speaker 2: They should be paying attention to it? Absolutely? I think

899
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: the stats here in Australia are appalling and we need

900
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 2: to do better. And a safer community is a more

901
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 2: productive community. A safer community is just a better place

902
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 2: to be. And no one would want these situations for

903
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 2: their family members, right for their daughter, for their for

904
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 2: their grandkids. So it doesn't matter your political persuasion. I

905
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 2: think you should care about this.

906
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: As Sue, So no brain. It's funny, you know, we

907
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,439
Speaker 1: keep talking about the standard living, you know, and when

908
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: we assess the standard living in Australia generally speaking, take

909
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 1: you know, gross domestic product divided by the population numbers,

910
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: and we just look at it like a really high

911
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: level economic number, when in fact, if another thing that

912
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:23,760
Speaker 1: we maybe should be looking at and putting a value

913
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: on is the unhappiness of people who live in these

914
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: sorts of relationships as relative to our standard living. In

915
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: other words, if we got the highest domestic abuse per

916
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: capital in the world and just making this number up,

917
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: if we had, therefore our stand of living is not

918
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 1: very good.

919
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 2: No, it's not. Well, we're we're letting things down at

920
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: a pretty fundamental level. Yeah, right, if we don't look

921
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 2: after the most vulnerable. I'm not saying do everything for them, like, oh,

922
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 2: you know, but we need to have a safety net

923
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,839
Speaker 2: when things go wrong, because guess what, wealth, health and

924
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: safety is not an eternal fact that you can count

925
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 2: on and every moment of your life, things happen, and

926
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 2: that's when we need community, and that's when we need

927
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: policies so that we can survive it, come out the

928
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 2: other side and actually have rallied together and support one another.

929
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 2: And that's what I think is really important is to

930
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: remember that in today's individualistic society, you know, remember that

931
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 2: sometimes we need community actually to survive.

932
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,879
Speaker 1: What would you say to either Peter Dutton who's the

933
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 1: opposition leader, and or anything alban Is used the current

934
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: prime minister, both of whom want to become the next

935
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:40,240
Speaker 1: prime minister of the country, who are currently both running

936
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: a narrative around the cyclone is about to hit northern

937
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: New South Wales and southeast Queensland and they're a lockstep

938
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: about how important is for the country to look after

939
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: all these people, which is great, but very rarely ever

940
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: talk about this topic, which is an ongoing thing. Cyclones

941
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: happen once every thirty forty years, and I get it's

942
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: important a Nichue. We don't want people to get hurt

943
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 1: or anyone want people to stay safe, Yeah, we totally,

944
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: but we also want individuals to stay safe and the

945
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 1: kids stay stay safe on a daily basis forever. Yeah,

946
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 1: not on every thirty year cycle. What would you say

947
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,280
Speaker 1: to those two now who are on an election cycle,

948
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 1: what would you want them to pay attention and what

949
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 1: would you perhaps want them to start to the narrative

950
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: that they might be able to start to talk about,

951
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: because but it will be sitting right there again in

952
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: a few weeks. I'm so earth in the Albanize you

953
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 1: know I actually tell them about it, or what would

954
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: you like to say to them.

955
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: I would like to say, listen to survivors, listen to

956
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 2: advocates in the space, because they have knowledge, they have expertise,

957
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 2: and this matters even if they're not personally affected by

958
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 2: it right now. It matters for Australia. It matters for Australians.

959
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 2: What happens behind closed doors might be invisible to them,

960
00:52:56,280 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 2: but it has a profound impact on Australian families, on

961
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 2: the future of this country and on what's happening on

962
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 2: the ground right now. And that's why something like the

963
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 2: cyclone again, you need community support. Right people are going

964
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 2: to be in distress and crisis. They're going to need

965
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 2: somewhere to stay. The case, that's also the case for

966
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 2: those who are experiencing danger, crisis and violence behind closed doors, right,

967
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 2: So don't forget them just because they're invisible to you

968
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 2: right now. And policies that support the community in that way,

969
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 2: that support women and girls and kids are policies that

970
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 2: make a stronger country. And we know that down the line.

971
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 2: You know, you can look at any example and we

972
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,359
Speaker 2: know that to be the case. So don't forget them.

973
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 2: Just because they're not sitting next to you right now,

974
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 2: just because they might be experiencing this in a place

975
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 2: you don't see, they're still there and they still need

976
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:51,839
Speaker 2: our help.

977
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: Is that part of the when you say you are

978
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,720
Speaker 1: interested in and you write about it and you advocate

979
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: for when you say the darker things are happening, not

980
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: so much the light, but the things that are happening in

981
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 1: the darkness, is it as much about darkness as it

982
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: is about it is invisible? In other words, it's not

983
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 1: in our face day to day, correct, and it's not

984
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: talked about. The cyclone's there. You know, all the news

985
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: formats are all going to talk about it because it's

986
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: newsworthy and it makes a good story. But this stuff

987
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 1: doesn't really make a good story and it's hard to hear.

988
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 1: So you're bringing out the invisible.

989
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 2: That's what I think is important. That's something that I'm

990
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 2: able to do right now. People won't give it, damn

991
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 2: what I say later. When I have a microphone now,

992
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 2: I do want to have it to use my voice

993
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 2: in a way that might be useful maybe right And

994
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 2: one of the ways we can do that is to

995
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 2: illuminate the things that are in the shadows or to

996
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 2: make visible the things that are less visible, and I

997
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 2: do try to do that, have a track record of

998
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 2: doing that on various issues over the last couple of decades,

999
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 2: and I'll continue to do so as long as I'm useful.

1000
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: Well, it's actually very interesting. Appreciate you coming in entire ray.

1001
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 1: But I think the definition or the description of abuse

1002
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: in families, particularly women and usually their kids as well.

1003
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: And whatever the abuse is, whether it's financial, physical, whatever

1004
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: it is, is invisible, and sometimes we tend to not

1005
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: want to look at it. We sort of it's very difficult,

1006
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: it's quite confronting. I prefer you prefer not to think

1007
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: about it too often. And maybe I'm even someone like

1008
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: that because I think about it Christmas time. Only Bay

1009
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 1: contacts me. But it's not something I think about day

1010
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: to day. And therefore, you know, none of us are

1011
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: because we've got to write all the other stuff we've

1012
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,879
Speaker 1: got to do it get through. But governments should have

1013
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: a constant monitor in this stuff.

1014
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 2: They should have budget, they should have policies, they should

1015
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 2: have refuges because it saves lives and like you said,

1016
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,399
Speaker 2: standard of living, How can we really calculate that when

1017
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,760
Speaker 2: so many people fall through the cracks. Because they're invisible

1018
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 2: doesn't mean they aren't Australians and they need our help.

1019
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 1: Are No.

1020
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 2: The governments should actually be on top of this, and

1021
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 2: we know that that's good government policy. It just often

1022
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 2: gets shifted by other issues, right, other priorities. And I

1023
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 2: do think we need more women in politics in part

1024
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 2: for this very reason. Their perspectives, their knowledge, their expertise

1025
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 2: is going to be a little bit different, their life

1026
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 2: experience is different, and they're may be more well placed

1027
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,879
Speaker 2: to look at the issues that haven't been prioritized quite

1028
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 2: as much. Right, it's not a strictly gendered issue, but

1029
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 2: it is largely gendered as well, So looking at that

1030
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 2: it just brings in a better pool of thinkers around

1031
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 2: issues that maybe haven't been looked at as much. And

1032
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 2: if I look back to my books in this period

1033
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 2: of the nineteen forties, you know, no crime was committed

1034
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 2: unless the woman was murdered. She couldn't leave a relationship

1035
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 2: because she was being abused. It had to be adultery

1036
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,399
Speaker 2: or she's dead, right, I mean that's where we've come from.

1037
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 2: It's not so long ago, so there's still a taboo

1038
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 2: around this there's still an idea that you know, domestic violence.

1039
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,280
Speaker 2: It's not the same as a king hit and king's cross.

1040
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 2: It's not the same as the you know, the violence

1041
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 2: that we see on the streets around the battlefield or

1042
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 2: indeed in a in a cyclone. It's just kind of

1043
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 2: between two people that are just going to have to

1044
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 2: deal with it in private. And we know that that

1045
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 2: is that devastating kind of history is something we're still

1046
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 2: picking apart and trying to get away from. The taboos

1047
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 2: around that, the assumptions around that, and the invisibility of

1048
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: it are all obstacles to what I would call justice, fairness,

1049
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 2: and greater safety. And I want that greater safety from

1050
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 2: my daughter. You know, we all want that for our

1051
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 2: families and for the future.

1052
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: I think I think we were one of that I

1053
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: want for the nation. So Tyree, thanks for very much

1054
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: for shining the light on what is invisible. It is invisible,

1055
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: but it shouldn't be invisible. And I just wonder where

1056
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 1: the word domestic violence is not a very good adjective

1057
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: to use a relation of violence because the domestic softens it.

1058
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 1: I agree, domestic is probably is a dumb word. Yes,

1059
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's violence at home.

1060
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 2: But family violent. Family violence is maybe a little bit better.

1061
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 2: But not all people experiencing violence at home or a family,

1062
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 2: so they're not always with kids. But I agree, it's

1063
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 2: you know, it has been spoken of as being maybe problematic,

1064
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 2: perhaps dismissive, again because of that history. It's a domestic matter.

1065
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 2: It's a domestic matter, and it was really used in

1066
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 2: a way that was quite dismissive. So yeah, give me

1067
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 2: a better word for it. Mark, let's see.

1068
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 1: I can't think, but I'm now thinking. But no, thanks

1069
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: from much for getting my attention on this, and I'm

1070
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: not appreciate and our audience for that matter, from making

1071
00:58:51,880 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: the time. You're most welcome in good Luck and podcast. Yeah,