Speaker 1: Hi, guys. Two years ago we spoke to Geraldine Kane,
Speaker 1: whose sister Lisel Smith was murdered and her body has
Speaker 1: never been found. A man called Jim Church was charged
Speaker 1: with murder of Lisel and what followed was a lengthy
Speaker 1: thirteen and a half week trial. But just hours before
Speaker 1: the judge handed down the verdict, Church took his own life,
Speaker 1: which meant the judge's decision is sealed forever, meaning the
Speaker 1: family will never know if Church was found guilty or not.
Speaker 1: From my observations, the police have done a very thorough
Speaker 1: investigation into the disappearance of Lisel. During our podcast with
Speaker 1: Geraldine in twenty twenty three, we called for a cranial inquest,
Speaker 1: and now two years later, that's exactly where we are.
Speaker 1: We're here for the inquest into the suspicious disappearance of
Speaker 1: Lisel Smith, who was just twenty three years old when
Speaker 1: she vanished from the Central Coast on New South Wales
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. It was a unique situation. When I
Speaker 1: say unique. First of all, Geraline, thanks for having a
Speaker 1: chat here.
Speaker 2: No problem, thanks for having me harry again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, just to explain, because it was a case
Speaker 1: that was very troubling and the end results and are
Speaker 1: the ones that have really I haven't seen it occur
Speaker 1: in all the time that I've been involved in homicide
Speaker 1: investigations or missing persons. What happened. The person was charged
Speaker 1: with Liesl's murder and it was a murder trial was
Speaker 1: conducted with a judge only trial, so there was no jury,
Speaker 1: and then the judge has made the decision. Following I
Speaker 1: think it was thirteen weeks thirteen and a half, Yeah,
Speaker 1: thirteen and a half weeks of evidence where the murder
Speaker 1: trial was run, the judge had come to a conclusion
Speaker 1: and she'd summoned all the interested parties into appear at court.
Speaker 1: On that very day, the person that was charged with
Speaker 1: the murder killed himself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently, I think it was the day before that
Speaker 2: we got the phone call stating that there'd been a
Speaker 2: notification to ambulance and police that there was a deceased
Speaker 2: person at his address and we were due to fly
Speaker 2: up the morning of the verdict, and the social worker
Speaker 2: rang me and said that there'd been a development, and
Speaker 2: I thought, you know what, he's guilty, and I would
Speaker 2: have been quite surprised if that had been the case,
Speaker 2: and she was quite hesitant to explain over the phone,
Speaker 2: and I said her, you need to tell me because
Speaker 2: I'm at work and I've got five and a half
Speaker 2: hours to go and with what I do, I can't
Speaker 2: not be focused. So she got in contact with the
Speaker 2: two DPP barristers who were running the case at the time.
Speaker 2: She needed to have a quick chat to them, and
Speaker 2: then she was going to get back to me, and
Speaker 2: I said great. She rang me back and said that
Speaker 2: ambulance and police, in particular the detectives were on their
Speaker 2: way to confirm that he had committed suicide. As I
Speaker 2: said on the podcast, I believe, I swore, and then
Speaker 2: said to my boss I was off the floor. My
Speaker 2: husband had to come and pick me up, and we
Speaker 2: ended up having a teleconference at work using my boss's computer,
Speaker 2: and we were warned that it was most likely that
Speaker 2: we wouldn't get a verdict, but they weren't sure because,
Speaker 2: as you said, it never happened before. They'd had to
Speaker 2: go back through common law in Australia to see if
Speaker 2: there was any similar situations, although they were pretty confident
Speaker 2: that there weren't, and they'd also gone back to the
Speaker 2: UK to look at it as well. Because of the
Speaker 2: way that the leagues to see if the precedence they
Speaker 2: had come across something sort of similar, where it had
Speaker 2: been a judge and jury. The jury had found the
Speaker 2: accused guilty on a number of charges, but I think
Speaker 2: either hadn't deliberated or we're in the process of deliberating
Speaker 2: on the others. When the accus stood committed suicide, that
Speaker 2: was sort of the only thing that came close. Otherwise,
Speaker 2: for all intents and purposes, they've nod.
Speaker 1: So it's unprecedented one. I know, when we're on the
Speaker 1: talking on the podcast, I was sort of putting my
Speaker 1: mind to it, and I couldn't recall a situation similar.
Speaker 1: But I felt then in discussions with view, it would
Speaker 1: be a simple process if it went to the coroner
Speaker 1: and the judges got the already made the decision. I
Speaker 1: can understand there might be some legislation that prevents the
Speaker 1: documentation and or the judges' findings being handed over, even
Speaker 1: though from a common sense point I'm going to say,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to sound like a sensible and the legal
Speaker 1: from a common sense point of view, I can't, for
Speaker 1: the life of me see why the decision by the
Speaker 1: judge can't be passed on to the coroner. The coron
Speaker 1: that can have a look at that and then make
Speaker 1: a finding based on that.
Speaker 2: So I had a meeting with the Attorney General, and
Speaker 2: his response from the Legal Department, and I'm not entirely
Speaker 2: sure who constitutes that, was that you can't give a
Speaker 2: verdict if there's no one to punish, because there is
Speaker 2: a likelihood that they will be found guilty. The other
Speaker 2: thing is that you know, the way that the law
Speaker 2: currently stands is that if at any process during the
Speaker 2: trial the accused becomes deceased, then that's the end of
Speaker 2: the trial. And that's the way that the law stands.
Speaker 2: And my response was, well, that doesn't mean that it
Speaker 2: can't be changed. So from my perspective, he participated in
Speaker 2: the trial the way that he decided to. He had
Speaker 2: full ability to do so. And once the end of
Speaker 2: that trial was reached and everyone was dismissed and the
Speaker 2: judge retired to consider her verdict, you're not going to
Speaker 2: have her come across anything new or untoward or suddenly
Speaker 2: be found for her to rewrite a verdict. And the
Speaker 2: fact that he committed suicide doesn't change what she'd already written.
Speaker 2: I think in that aspect, the family at least are owed,
Speaker 2: you know, the knowledge of what that verdict was. And
Speaker 2: I've since found out that not even the coroner has
Speaker 2: access to it. It is sealed from anybody at all,
Speaker 2: apart from the judge who was going to deliver it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's complex. It seems so simple looking from outside,
Speaker 1: doesn't it. And they were referring to the principle of
Speaker 1: abatement where the trial ends with the death of the
Speaker 1: accused because there's no one to punish. But yeah, sadly
Speaker 1: it's the families family of your sister that's been punished
Speaker 1: not finding out what's happened. I'm getting a sense and
Speaker 1: just seeing the first morning of the inquest, to my
Speaker 1: way of thinking, there's a whole lot of evidence being
Speaker 1: presented to the coroner. That is the type of evidence
Speaker 1: that would have been presented in the murder trial, and
Speaker 1: the coroner were making her findings based on the information
Speaker 1: that's presented to it. But understanding, this is an in quest,
Speaker 1: so it's not the same as a criminal court.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So my understanding is that there is a standard
Speaker 2: that has to be reached for a criminal court. Evidence
Speaker 2: has to reach that standard before.
Speaker 1: It can be beyond the red submitted.
Speaker 2: And a coroner's in quest is where they look at
Speaker 2: all the evidence and its relevance to the case. So
Speaker 2: there's been stuff that has been included in coroners that
Speaker 2: wasn't included in criminal court because of its relevance. And
Speaker 2: another thing with that is if anything can be deemed
Speaker 2: prejudicial in the criminal court, then it wouldn't be admitted either.
Speaker 2: So there's parts of it that I'm certainly familiar with,
Speaker 2: and then there's other aspects that are slightly new to me,
Speaker 2: simply because I wasn't allowed to, as we've spoken, witness
Speaker 2: what was going on in court for the first two weeks.
Speaker 2: And there's other things that you know, I just I
Speaker 2: wasn't aware of because as hard as you try, I
Speaker 2: wasn't able to watch everything. So yeah, there's a distinct difference.
Speaker 2: I also find that Cournus Court is a lot more
Speaker 2: supportive of the family, Like it was acknowledged of us
Speaker 2: that we were there and that it's been quite trying.
Speaker 2: But it's pretty harrowing to have to re listen to
Speaker 2: someone life through their teeth, to be quite honest.
Speaker 1: Well, sitting sitting there today and yeah, that's the difference
Speaker 1: between an inquisitorial which is the inquest, and the adversarial system,
Speaker 1: which is the criminal courts. But I was very mindful
Speaker 1: of yourself and other family members sitting there and hearing
Speaker 1: hearing the evidence play out again. You've already been through it,
Speaker 1: been for it once, and here you are again. I
Speaker 1: don't know, call me a simple man, but I would
Speaker 1: like to think with a stroke of a pen and
Speaker 1: then Attorney General could make an informed decision and say, hey,
Speaker 1: this is a unique set of circumstances. This hasn't occurred
Speaker 1: before because what you relayed where they look back in
Speaker 1: the past law even over to the UK, it wasn't
Speaker 1: the exact set of circumstances. This was a unique set
Speaker 1: of circumstances. I think it would be very extremely unlikely
Speaker 1: it would occur again and perhaps save a lot of people,
Speaker 1: a lot of banks and a lot of heartache, and
Speaker 1: a simple decision could have been made.
Speaker 2: I hope that the government looks at this and takes
Speaker 2: whatever recommendations the coroner has decided that she needs to
Speaker 2: do on board. She can't force them. One of those
Speaker 2: things would be to stop another family going through the
Speaker 2: same thing. And as you said, it's a unique set
Speaker 2: of circumstances. You can be quite specific with legislation. You
Speaker 2: can say, you know, you can put certain parameters around
Speaker 2: so that it can't be used to as a precedent
Speaker 2: for other cases or to other situations. So no, I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's that hard either.
Speaker 1: No, And I understand the in fairness to the coroner,
Speaker 1: she's bound by the legislation than the counsel assisting. But
Speaker 1: I see what the family is going through, and my
Speaker 1: observation of the police as well that they're frustrated by this.
Speaker 1: It seems to be they've already done this and now
Speaker 1: they're doing it again. So yeah, I again, in very
Speaker 1: simplistic terms, I think the laws there the serve society,
Speaker 1: and if society is not being served, maybe there needs
Speaker 1: to be changes.
Speaker 2: I'm in complete and utter agreement, especially with all the
Speaker 2: man hours and the work that they put into the investigation.
Speaker 2: You know, you've experienced it yourself, time away from kids,
Speaker 2: time away from family, you know, missing out on point
Speaker 2: and celebrations and you know, random phone calls in the
Speaker 2: middle of the night and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, I just think all that work and to
Speaker 2: not get a result in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 2: It's an insult.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you want to get a sense of who
Speaker 1: Lisel was and what her family has been through, how
Speaker 1: about you have a listen to our original interview we
Speaker 1: did with Geraldine. Have a listen. The public has had
Speaker 1: a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side
Speaker 1: of life. The average person has never exposed her I
Speaker 1: spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five
Speaker 1: of those years I was catching killers. That's what I
Speaker 1: did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm
Speaker 1: no longer just interviewing bad guys, said, I'm taking the
Speaker 1: public into the world in which I operated. The guests
Speaker 1: I talk to each week have amazing stories from all
Speaker 1: sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
Speaker 1: just like the people I talked to. Some of the
Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
Speaker 1: who comes in the contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Lisel Smith
Speaker 1: was just twenty three years old when she vanished from
Speaker 1: the central coast of New South Wales. That was back
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve, the New South Wales Lees believe that
Speaker 1: she was murdered and they know who is responsible. Despite this,
Speaker 1: no one has been convicted of the suspected murder. Today's
Speaker 1: guest is Liesl's older sister, Geraldine Kane. Geraline contacted me
Speaker 1: and asked if I could help her get justice for
Speaker 1: a sister. Knowing the pain suffered by families to find
Speaker 1: justice for missing or murdered loved ones, it was a
Speaker 1: difficult request to say no to. I never worked on
Speaker 1: Liesl's case, but I am for me with what appears
Speaker 1: to be an unprecedented roadblock in finding out what happened
Speaker 1: to Lisel. I think there is power in telling stories,
Speaker 1: so I asked Geraldine to come on I Catch Killers
Speaker 1: and share her story. Who knows, perhaps if enough people
Speaker 1: are aware of what has occurred, the justice system might
Speaker 1: just find the way to provide answers for a grieving family.
Speaker 1: I honestly don't think it's that hard. Geraldine Kine, welcome
Speaker 1: to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me Gay Well.
Speaker 1: Look, firstly, up front, I want to offer my condolences
Speaker 1: to what you've been through as a family with the
Speaker 1: disappearance of your sister Lisel Smith. And I know it's
Speaker 1: ten years ago or a little bit more. The pain
Speaker 1: doesn't go away, does it.
Speaker 2: No, you learn to live with it, but you never
Speaker 2: get over it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think people unless you've been there, people don't understand.
Speaker 1: And I know in the times that I spent in homicide,
Speaker 1: I had people and I was mortified when I heard
Speaker 1: them say it, especially to families of missing persons or
Speaker 1: people that have been murdered, that you just got to
Speaker 1: get on with your life. And it's easier said than done.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it certainly is. I remember when I first heard
Speaker 2: that Lisal had gone missing, my world essentially stopped, you know,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I became one of those people
Speaker 2: that happened to and the world just stopped for me.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think it was about It took
Speaker 2: a good twelve months before felt like it started back
Speaker 2: up again and took me with it. And that was
Speaker 2: something that I wasn't prepared for. You know, it's you
Speaker 2: get the news that your sister's missing, and you know
Speaker 2: you want everyone to jump on board and do everything
Speaker 2: that they can. And Loaren a founder of MPN, which
Speaker 2: is now known as the Misfoundation put it quite well
Speaker 2: in terms of, you know, you expect what you say
Speaker 2: on TV to occur. You know, you expect the dogs,
Speaker 2: and you expect all the police force, and we had nothing.
Speaker 2: We really didn't get any of that. And from what
Speaker 2: I understand that's a lot of other people's experiences that
Speaker 2: have got missing people as well, is that everyone else
Speaker 2: tends to or it seems to be, seems to go
Speaker 2: on with their daily lives like nothing's happened, and you're
Speaker 2: standing in the middle of it, or feeling like, well,
Speaker 2: hang on, you know, my sister's missing, this is important.
Speaker 2: Why aren't you doing anything? And it's it's a very
Speaker 2: discompopulating feeling in all honesty. It you know, work goes
Speaker 2: life goes on, and you can't stop it. No matter
Speaker 2: what you want done or how you want things done.
Speaker 2: Life still goes on. But for you it seems to stop.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a couple of points that you've raised air
Speaker 1: and you articulated very well. But firstly, there's a disconnect
Speaker 1: from us when I say us people that haven't been
Speaker 1: impacted like you and your family have been impacted because
Speaker 1: we watch it play out on TV. Someone's gone missing,
Speaker 1: and you'd be thinking, Oh, that's that would be bad,
Speaker 1: but then it's a fleeting thought and then you get
Speaker 1: on with your life. And it's really the type of
Speaker 1: situation that you never think that you would find yourself in.
Speaker 1: And I think that's why people we almost and I
Speaker 1: hate to say it, but become desensitized to it because
Speaker 1: it gets reported that often and Okay, well that's happened,
Speaker 1: let's move on. But you articulated very well that you
Speaker 1: want the world to stop. Your loved one is missing,
Speaker 1: something terrible has happened. You know, your worst thoughts would
Speaker 1: be going through your mind. Why is the world carrying
Speaker 1: on as usual? How can people celebrate a weekend coming up?
Speaker 1: Or how can people look forward to anything because you've
Speaker 1: got your love one missing. Is that the type of
Speaker 1: deep emotion you feel?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I liken it to what I do
Speaker 2: for work. So my background is critical care and emergency
Speaker 2: and ICU, and I was working in ICU towards the end,
Speaker 2: but initially when I found out that Least was missing,
Speaker 2: I was in remote wa and I was doing My
Speaker 2: initial background is emergency and you know, I have seen
Speaker 2: some very interesting and very tragic things occur in the
Speaker 2: course of my career. I'm a registered nurse, and I
Speaker 2: have had to constantly remind myself that, yes, this is
Speaker 2: what I do. I love what I do. I empathize,
Speaker 2: you know, with a lot of the patients that I
Speaker 2: care for and have cared for, and yes I do it,
Speaker 2: you know, as a career. But I am constantly aware
Speaker 2: of that while that's my career, you know, I can
Speaker 2: still step away from it. And you know, for the
Speaker 2: people that whatever has occurred, especially tragic situations, that this
Speaker 2: is that has occurred to them, it's the worst day
Speaker 2: of their lives, you know, and they're going through that
Speaker 2: experience for the first time ever. They may or may
Speaker 2: not ever go through something similar again, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's all new for them. And I liken to finding
Speaker 2: out les or going missing, to being put in that position.
Speaker 2: You know, people that you come into contact with that
Speaker 2: for example, police that do their job such as this
Speaker 2: on a day on, day in, day out basis. You know,
Speaker 2: my experience is certainly that some do forget that you know,
Speaker 2: what you're going through you've never experienced before, and some
Speaker 2: compassion and empathy goes a long way, as does communication.
Speaker 1: I understand that because what you're talking about in the
Speaker 1: emergency section of a hospital, people can be and we've
Speaker 1: all encountered doctors in those situations that they're a little
Speaker 1: bit aloof and just okay, well, you've got six months
Speaker 1: to live that type of coutry and then walk out
Speaker 1: the door a little bit of humanity, compassion and empathy.
Speaker 1: You've just know that it makes such a difference, doesn't
Speaker 1: it If anyone in that position, whether it be in
Speaker 1: the medical section or in policing, that carries a lot,
Speaker 1: doesn't it?
Speaker 2: It does, And it's just it's I think it's that
Speaker 2: human connection that you know, someone who doesn't know you
Speaker 2: from a burrow soap can sit and just listen. You
Speaker 2: don't you don't expect them to fix the problem. You know, realistically,
Speaker 2: you know that there's no possible way of the problem
Speaker 2: being fixed. But you've at least connected on a human level.
Speaker 2: You know, you've been listened to, and you've been heard,
Speaker 2: and it's been recognized that what you're experiencing, for one
Speaker 2: of a better word, really sucks. And just that recognition,
Speaker 2: I think is what anybody wants or needs, or even
Speaker 2: if they can't verbalize it, you know, desires in that
Speaker 2: moment of experiencing such a tragedy or whatever situation is
Speaker 2: going on for them. And I think that gets lost
Speaker 2: these days by any number of people. And I think
Speaker 2: that the meaning and I guess the meaningfulness of it
Speaker 2: and the impact it has on someone is not to
Speaker 2: be underestimated.
Speaker 1: No, it's not not fully appreciated in some regards. I
Speaker 1: just want to get a sense of your world at
Speaker 1: the time. But first of all, let's find out about Lisel.
Speaker 1: Who she was. She was a younger sister.
Speaker 2: She was a younger sister.
Speaker 1: Yes, tell us about Lisal before she disappeared.
Speaker 2: Gosh. I was actually thinking a couple of days ago
Speaker 2: a story popped into my head. I was at school.
Speaker 2: I think Lisal was at home. She hadn't started KINDI
Speaker 2: or anything at that point in time. And I got
Speaker 2: in trouble for losing my school shoes. And I'd been
Speaker 2: in trouble quite a few times before, and this particular time,
Speaker 2: I got in quite a lot of trouble because it
Speaker 2: had been a couple of days and we couldn't find them,
Speaker 2: and I was adamant I'd left them at the front door,
Speaker 2: and it was getting to the point where I was
Speaker 2: going to need a new pair of school shoes. And
Speaker 2: so we had a dam. We grew up on a property,
Speaker 2: and there were my school shoes half in the dam
Speaker 2: and half out, and I'm like, well, I didn't go
Speaker 2: down there. And you know what had actually happened was
Speaker 2: lee'saul had wanted to feed the ducks. So she grabbed
Speaker 2: a loaf of bread that had gone missing. That was
Speaker 2: the other thing that no one could work out at
Speaker 2: the time, a loaf of bread from the kitchen, and
Speaker 2: decided to go feed the ducks. Well, the only shoes
Speaker 2: that were near the back door were my school shoes,
Speaker 2: so she's popped them on and she's wandered down and
Speaker 2: my stepped out at the time was in my NaN's house.
Speaker 2: Switch we had two houses on the property, and just
Speaker 2: so happened to see Lisal halfway up, I believe in
Speaker 2: up to her waisting water in the dam, flew out
Speaker 2: of NaN's house, flew down across to the down It
Speaker 2: was good, you know, two hundred and fifty odd meters plus,
Speaker 2: you know, pulled her out of the water because she's
Speaker 2: you know, wanting to feed ducks and keep going in
Speaker 2: And didn't realize at the time that she'd wore my
Speaker 2: school shoes down.
Speaker 1: Okay, so a young younger sister, even at that stage
Speaker 1: course causing, knew dramas.
Speaker 2: Oh not dramas, but her focus was the animals.
Speaker 1: So, okay, that's pretty cool. What age difference was it
Speaker 1: between you two?
Speaker 2: There was nine years, so she was born in nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty nine. The sury in our family goes that my
Speaker 2: mum went into labor on April Fool's Day, Fool's Day,
Speaker 2: and she flat out she used to have an April
Speaker 2: Fool's baby, so she didn't start pushing until it hit April.
Speaker 1: A second, she waited, she waited.
Speaker 2: She was not having a baby on the April. The
Speaker 2: first put it that way.
Speaker 1: And where did you guys grow up where they were?
Speaker 2: Well, you're up on the Central Coast. So there's a
Speaker 2: suburb called blue Haven which is all developed out now.
Speaker 1: But we had changed dramatically.
Speaker 2: Has it has changed? I don't even recognize where I
Speaker 2: grew up anymore. We grew up on fifty acres. It
Speaker 2: was all semi rural at the time, and blue Haven
Speaker 2: was the main part of the suburb was down the
Speaker 2: road that we lived on. Our property backed onto the
Speaker 2: Pacific Highway, the oh Pacific Highway going up through doyleson
Speaker 2: up to Swansea, and we were pretty much, you know,
Speaker 2: free to rime. I remember being told if I got lost,
Speaker 2: because I used to take myself on expeditions, either keep
Speaker 2: going on direction, I'd either hit the neighbors, the road
Speaker 2: that we lived on, or the Pacific Highway and then
Speaker 2: just follow it around until I got home.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So at the time it was at twenty
Speaker 1: twelve Lese will disappeared, Yes, correct, What was what was
Speaker 1: your situation there? You mentioned you're working in the remote
Speaker 1: location in Wa at the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'd moved to Tazzi about eighteen months before
Speaker 2: for work and budget cuts went through and I was
Speaker 2: on a contract and that wasn't renewed. So it was
Speaker 2: the last minute scramble at the time to find work elsewhere.
Speaker 2: And so I'd always wanted to go to remote and
Speaker 2: after a discussion my partner who I'm now married to,
Speaker 2: and going through an agency, I ended up in Leonora,
Speaker 2: of all places, which is it was a good introduction.
Speaker 1: What part of Wa is that.
Speaker 2: It's about It's two and a half hours northeast of
Speaker 2: Calgooli Okay, yeah, so we are Goldfield.
Speaker 1: It's remote, Yeah, very very remote. Yeah, so Lisa, what
Speaker 1: was she doing at that stage of her life? She
Speaker 1: was twenty three?
Speaker 2: Yeah, about that she was involved working for horse stables.
Speaker 2: She was living with my step or my stepdad, her dad,
Speaker 2: and we didn't talk a lot. We hadn't sort of
Speaker 2: seen each other in a while.
Speaker 1: But she was that tafe.
Speaker 2: She was doing a I think it was a certificate
Speaker 2: in Animal management management all was something. You know, she
Speaker 2: loved animals, She loved working with horses in particular, as
Speaker 2: you know, she had a as people might know, she
Speaker 2: had a horse, Molly that was in full that she
Speaker 2: was really looking forward to. Yeah, and you know, it
Speaker 2: seemed to be quite happy with what she was doing
Speaker 2: with her life as far as I was aware.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're and I'm just trying to get a
Speaker 1: sense of it so people can appreciate the impact that
Speaker 1: the following events have. You're living as families do. You're
Speaker 1: living on the other or different locations, but you're still
Speaker 1: in contact. There's probably not as much as you should,
Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, you're there for each other. When
Speaker 1: did you find out when was the first inclination you
Speaker 1: got that Liseel was missing.
Speaker 2: It was I think two weeks after she'd gone missing.
Speaker 2: Timeline's a bit sketchy. At the time. I actually got
Speaker 2: an email from my stepdad from memory saying that Lisa
Speaker 2: gone missing. What I didn't know at the time and
Speaker 2: found out later was that she'd been missing for a
Speaker 2: week before she was reported to the police as been
Speaker 2: missing by my stepdad.
Speaker 1: Any any reason for that at all the circumstances, or.
Speaker 2: You'd have to ask him, right, I have no idea.
Speaker 2: I've talked about it with my husband since, and as
Speaker 2: he's indicated to me, you know, if I wasn't home
Speaker 2: at the time that I said that I was home,
Speaker 2: he'd start ringing people. You know, he'd give me half
Speaker 2: an hour grace. You know, we've all got phones, and
Speaker 2: if he hadn't heard from me, then you know, he'd
Speaker 2: start making contact with friends and work and you know,
Speaker 2: start going where is she, what she's doing? So I
Speaker 2: don't know his reasons for that, And I remember just
Speaker 2: looking at the email in utter disbelief and thinking, missing,
Speaker 2: what do you mean she's gone missing? Like, you know,
Speaker 2: hang on a second, And I remember contacting the local
Speaker 2: police officer. I think it was like a two man
Speaker 2: police station in Leonora. It certainly wasn't a big one.
Speaker 2: And he'd know me because he'd brought people in to
Speaker 2: the hospital and all that sort of stuff. So he
Speaker 2: was able to verify my identity and he tried to
Speaker 2: get in contact with New South Wales police to try
Speaker 2: and find out for me, and they wouldn't tell him
Speaker 2: a thing.
Speaker 1: So one play service not tell any other police service.
Speaker 2: Revolutionary I know, yeah, pretty much. They wouldn't give him
Speaker 2: any information whatsoever. And he was like, look, I can
Speaker 2: verify I've seen her id she works at the hospital,
Speaker 2: and they wouldn't give him any information. I was, I
Speaker 2: think a month and a bit off finishing the contract
Speaker 2: that I had, and so there wasn't really a lot
Speaker 2: that I could do at the time, and I didn't
Speaker 2: know how to get in contact, like I didn't know
Speaker 2: where she'd been reported as missing or who I was
Speaker 2: able to talk to. He managed to from memory get
Speaker 2: those details and I ended up having I think an
Speaker 2: initial touch base and they sort of asked me, when
Speaker 2: was the last time you'd seen her, and I said, well,
Speaker 2: it was eighteen months prior to that, yep, where I'd
Speaker 2: had a conversation with her, and then they sort of
Speaker 2: mentioned that they wanted me to come in for a
Speaker 2: statement at some point, but they didn't seemed to be
Speaker 2: a huge amount of urgency over.
Speaker 1: It was that when you were was that communication by
Speaker 1: the phone when you're still in wa or.
Speaker 2: Yes, I had to pick up another phone because the
Speaker 2: phone service that I was with at the time wasn't covered,
Speaker 2: So I believe the communication was through that phone. It
Speaker 2: wasn't through my normal phone.
Speaker 1: Numbal, What was going through your mind? Like your stepfather
Speaker 1: has sent you an email and said, look at your
Speaker 1: sister's missing. Did you have details missing in suspicious circumstances
Speaker 1: or missing as in she said she's going to go
Speaker 1: travel around Australia or she What was going through your mind?
Speaker 2: I was incredulous. I was a bit flabbergast. Said that
Speaker 2: she was missing and I was being given minimal detail.
Speaker 2: All he'd said was that she had left a house
Speaker 2: at one o'clock in the afternoon on Sunday, the nineteenth August.
Speaker 2: She had dressed up to some degree, and he said,
Speaker 2: you know, because I had a conversation with him later
Speaker 2: she looked really good, and that she said, I'll be
Speaker 2: back at five to feed the animals because the horses
Speaker 2: needed feeding and she had you know, she had a
Speaker 2: dog called Natsi, and if there was a few other
Speaker 2: animals that were that were there at the time. And
Speaker 2: she didn't initially come home at five, he didn't, I believe,
Speaker 2: think too much of it. You know, she's a grown woman.
Speaker 2: She might have gotten caught up or something. And then
Speaker 2: sort of time went on and she didn't turn up,
Speaker 2: and then the night went she didn't turn up. So
Speaker 2: I believe he assumed she'd stayed the night somewhere and
Speaker 2: a phone was flat or something. I don't know, but yeah,
Speaker 2: it wasn't til a week later that he reported her missing,
Speaker 2: which I just I don't understand to this day. I
Speaker 2: just don't understand how you can wait a week even
Speaker 2: giving someone oh, you know, they've probably crashed somewhere or
Speaker 2: their phone side or you know whatever, twenty four hours, okay, fine,
Speaker 2: But you know, in this day and age, I mean
Speaker 2: even a decade ago, there were ways in means of
Speaker 2: contacting people, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And one hundred percent and there's different ways, and there's
Speaker 1: this fallacy that you can't report people missing unless it's
Speaker 1: been twenty four hours and all that. I think lazy
Speaker 1: police just spread that message because circumstances dictate whether something's
Speaker 1: concerning or something suspicious. And when you've got a lady
Speaker 1: like your sister who said I'm going to be home
Speaker 1: at such and such a time, has responsibilities at home
Speaker 1: that clearly she shows she's reliable, would come home and
Speaker 1: feed the animals, things like that, right from the start,
Speaker 1: there's concerns. So I suppose there's no Well, the police
Speaker 1: can't do anything until someone brings it to their attention.
Speaker 1: But yeah, this is strange that the concern wasn't raised
Speaker 1: earlier for whatever reasons. We probably don't know when it
Speaker 1: was brought to the attention of the police. Do you
Speaker 1: know what sort of response was done at the time?
Speaker 2: Very lackl so was the information I was given. My
Speaker 2: step dad turned around and said he'd walked into police
Speaker 2: station at seven thirty in the morning. I initially assumed
Speaker 2: that he'd gone in the next morning when he said
Speaker 2: seven thirty in the morning. As I said, I didn't
Speaker 2: find out till later that there was a week a
Speaker 2: week's gap, So I'd assumed that he'd gone in at
Speaker 2: seven thirty Monday morning to why on police station and had,
Speaker 2: in his words, had tried to report Lisel missing and
Speaker 2: had basically been blown off. According to him, the police
Speaker 2: were too busy watching the weather report or sunrise or
Speaker 2: something that was on at the time. So apparently there
Speaker 2: was just a complete lack of interest in taking the report,
Speaker 2: a lack of interest as to where she was or
Speaker 2: what she was doing or you know, and a lack
Speaker 2: of concern. You know, I think from the information that
Speaker 2: I have, they were essentially like, she's a grown woman,
Speaker 2: you know, she could be anywhere. Yeah, the fact that
Speaker 2: it was out of character for her didn't seem to
Speaker 2: warrant concern for them as far as I'm aware.
Speaker 1: There's some very simple inquiries that can be made when
Speaker 1: someone is reported reported missing and access to the phone
Speaker 1: bank bank records, that type of thing, and if someone's
Speaker 1: phone has just stopped being used, it's fairly telling that
Speaker 1: there potentially could be a problem. It's not it's not
Speaker 1: a lay down mas air that something horrible's happened. The
Speaker 1: phone might have broken, but it would be a concern
Speaker 1: not meeting commitments, whether that being feeding the animals, turning
Speaker 1: up for employment. Study or whatever, not using a bank account.
Speaker 1: Will these things explored? They were.
Speaker 2: I don't know the timeline as to how soon they
Speaker 2: were explored. I don't know whether it was like within
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks or within a couple of months,
Speaker 2: or I do remember being assified. Had any Facebook response
Speaker 2: to the Facebook message that I had sent, which was
Speaker 2: pretty soon after finding out that Lisa had gone missing.
Speaker 2: I never ever got a response to that. I'd given
Speaker 2: my number and I said, if you didn't, you know,
Speaker 2: didn't want to contact me, contact anybody, get a message
Speaker 2: to us. And we never heard anything. And then I
Speaker 2: think I think it was at least six months into
Speaker 2: the investigation that information started to trickle through that she
Speaker 2: hadn't access to her bank accounts. Facebook, you know, wasn't
Speaker 2: being used. There been you know, none of the day
Speaker 2: to day detail, you know, life detail of bills and
Speaker 2: utilities and you know payments and transactions that you know
Speaker 2: everyone sort of does without thinking two seconds of it.
Speaker 2: That leaves a trail.
Speaker 1: It's very hard to go off the grid, yeah, back then,
Speaker 1: back then, even more so today. But it's very hard
Speaker 1: to go off the grid as a time war on,
Speaker 1: like we're talking, yeah, seek months now, what was going
Speaker 1: through your mind.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to know where she was, if she
Speaker 2: was okay, if she'd managed to go off the grid,
Speaker 2: whatever her reasons were, that she was safe, that you know,
Speaker 2: she had somewhere to stay, that she had something, you know,
Speaker 2: I had the ability to look after herself. Even now,
Speaker 2: I will still catch myself looking for her. I've had
Speaker 2: a few double takes where I've you know, quickly turned
Speaker 2: my head twice because I you know, think, oh, that
Speaker 2: looks like you know her. There was a number of
Speaker 2: times where, you know, you go on a bit of
Speaker 2: a roller coaster where you you know, you hope that
Speaker 2: she's alive, and you're like, yep, she's got to be alive.
Speaker 2: And then there's other times where you're like, there's no
Speaker 2: information she has an access bank account, there's nothing to
Speaker 2: indicate that she is. You do lots of what I
Speaker 2: call other crying, because you're just riding that roller coaster,
Speaker 2: you know, from one extreme to the other, trying to
Speaker 2: work out what's going on, and that desperation that you know,
Speaker 2: against all odds, even though you know the reality of it.
Speaker 2: And my poor husband, you know, I don't know how
Speaker 2: he managed to keep it together for both of us,
Speaker 2: because for the initials six to twelve months, I was
Speaker 2: a pretty big mess, especially at home. It got to
Speaker 2: the point where I couldn't do the roller coaster ride anymore.
Speaker 2: I just it wasn't possible. I'd come home back to
Speaker 2: Tazzy sort of at the start of October, mid October,
Speaker 2: and I was just like, from now on, she's alive
Speaker 2: until I get any other anything otherwise to prove that
Speaker 2: she's not.
Speaker 1: That's the mindset.
Speaker 2: That was the mindset I had to take for my
Speaker 2: own sanity, yep, because I just I was just tearing
Speaker 2: myself apart, you know, mentally, going from one extreme to
Speaker 2: the other, and I just I couldn't do that to myself,
Speaker 2: and I couldn't put my family through that.
Speaker 1: I gerald then the way that you've just described that,
Speaker 1: I've heard that from other family members of different different cases,
Speaker 1: that really it is soul destroying. It rips you apart.
Speaker 1: On one hand, you're thinking, you're thinking there is a
Speaker 1: chance a miracle might happen, she might walk through the door.
Speaker 1: Then you think, no, am I just am I kidding myself?
Speaker 1: So you've got all these mixed emotions that you're going
Speaker 1: through You've got to get on with your life, and
Speaker 1: it's just so difficult. So it sounds like you're lucky
Speaker 1: that you had your husband there supporting you during that
Speaker 1: period of time, but it's basically, how do you get
Speaker 1: on with life when you love ones missing like that?
Speaker 2: What else do you do? I can't sit in a
Speaker 2: corner and rock you know, I've still got to go
Speaker 2: to work. I've still got bills to pay, I've got
Speaker 2: responsibilities to my family. As much as you want the
Speaker 2: world to stop and to wait until they come home,
Speaker 2: for me, at least, it wasn't an option. I still
Speaker 2: had to get on and to some degree, being at work,
Speaker 2: I hadn't told everyone what was happening. My bosses knew,
Speaker 2: mostly because my husband actually had to come pick me
Speaker 2: up at one point and that was it. But work
Speaker 2: gave me some sort of normalcy where you know, I
Speaker 2: wasn't thinking about Lisaul. I was dealing with somebody else's
Speaker 2: issues and that was my focus for the day. And
Speaker 2: then you know, I could go back home and the
Speaker 2: worst thing about being at home would be was that
Speaker 2: I'd get home and I'd be like, oh, I didn't
Speaker 2: think about Lisa. Little for eight hours, and then I'd
Speaker 2: feel guilty that I hadn't thought of her for eight hours.
Speaker 2: But then you end up in a worse spot because
Speaker 2: you feel guilty about not thinking of her when really
Speaker 2: you're trying to get on with life, and there's nothing
Speaker 2: wrong with that, but it all gets so muddled up
Speaker 2: in your head and you end up with such a
Speaker 2: sense of sense of guilt. All I did at least
Speaker 2: that it just it just yeah, it ends as you said,
Speaker 2: It ends up being sold.
Speaker 1: Hearing what you're saying, and it's an emotional rollercoaster, and
Speaker 1: that sense of guilt is how should I How can
Speaker 1: I get on with my life? I don't know what's
Speaker 1: happened to my sister. If I'm not going to fight for,
Speaker 1: who's going to fight for? All these emotions can't come through.
Speaker 1: So it is I describe it. I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's the right way to describe it, but I think
Speaker 1: it actually covers it's like a living hell when someone
Speaker 1: goes missing, and I've seen it too often with families
Speaker 1: and on investigations I've been involved in just looking for answers.
Speaker 2: And that's all you want. You just want answers. You
Speaker 2: might not like those answers. You don't have to like
Speaker 2: those answers, but like any any person who's got a
Speaker 2: missing person, you just want an answer of some sort,
Speaker 2: you know, just to process. And as I said, you're
Speaker 2: not you know, it doesn't have to be an answer
Speaker 2: that you're going to want or like, and it not
Speaker 2: always is, but it's an answer. It's something rather than nothing.
Speaker 1: Then you know what you're dealing with. Yeah, you've got
Speaker 1: to deal with it. It's something tangible that you understand.
Speaker 1: The investigation into Liesel's disappearance. What was the progress of that?
Speaker 1: When did you start to think something was happening on
Speaker 1: that front?
Speaker 2: It was probably when I heard that they had charged
Speaker 2: the suspect with her murder, which was about six years
Speaker 2: after she'd gone missing.
Speaker 1: Had you been aware that the suspect had been identified
Speaker 1: in this matter?
Speaker 2: I got a phone call from my stepdad saying that
Speaker 2: they had arrested him.
Speaker 1: I knew he was person of interest.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a person of interest. I knew.
Speaker 1: I knew that because he How did you know that?
Speaker 1: What filtered through to.
Speaker 2: You about my stepdad had mentioned that the police had
Speaker 2: been investigating him and then through media reports, Okay, the
Speaker 2: police were not the most compared passionate people I've ever
Speaker 2: come across at that point in time, and some of
Speaker 2: the things that were said to us, and the way that,
Speaker 2: at least when I had my contact with them, that
Speaker 2: I was treated was pretty disgusting to be quite frank.
Speaker 1: Was this prior to prior to this person being charged? Yes, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: tell me about that. We won't mention mention the names,
Speaker 1: but just in a general sense, how it made you feel.
Speaker 2: I basically felt like we were being treated as if
Speaker 2: we were the ones that had done something wrong. I
Speaker 2: at one point felt when there was a discussion between
Speaker 2: a couple of the detectives and someone quite senior, we
Speaker 2: were being told off like naughty children.
Speaker 1: In what regardless, we got.
Speaker 2: Told that we shouldn't have gone higher up, that we
Speaker 2: weren't to bother the person with the concerns that we had,
Speaker 2: that we should have gone to the person who were
Speaker 2: having the meeting with. The whole point of going higher
Speaker 2: up was because we were getting nothing from the people
Speaker 2: that we were in contact with.
Speaker 1: You know, when you're talking, it's just so people understand,
Speaker 1: because we had a conversation a couple of days ago
Speaker 1: about this that you were asking for information about the
Speaker 1: investigation and speaking to certain police and the information wasn't
Speaker 1: forthcoming and the response you thought was inadequate. So you
Speaker 1: went then above the chain of command above that officer
Speaker 1: and spoke to a senior officer and you got chastised
Speaker 1: by the original office of her going above. Yeah, is
Speaker 1: that the fair assessment?
Speaker 2: Pretty much in a nutshell?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think and I understood you explained it, and
Speaker 1: I'm just we'll try and pick bits and pieces out
Speaker 1: of it from the conversation we had before that you
Speaker 1: want the details of the investigation, and it was basically
Speaker 1: told you can't have details of the investigation, which you
Speaker 1: seem like a reasonable person, then you can understand that
Speaker 1: the integrity of investigation needs to come first. But it
Speaker 1: was a manner in which you were told that you
Speaker 1: took issue with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was the tone and it was the way
Speaker 2: that you know, we were spoken to. If they hadn't
Speaker 2: turned around and said, look, you know we are actively investigating.
Speaker 2: There are certain things that we can't tell you because
Speaker 2: you know we're prevented from doing that. But you know
Speaker 2: you will find out at some point. We just can't
Speaker 2: tell you right now. I would have gone Okay, fine,
Speaker 2: I at least get the sense that you're working on
Speaker 2: the case, that you're doing something to try and find
Speaker 2: my sister. But you know, I, at least I don't know.
Speaker 2: You know, I can't speak for my stepdad and my mum,
Speaker 2: but I at least wasn't getting any information whatsoever apart
Speaker 2: from what was being drip fed to me by my
Speaker 2: stepdad at the time, which was on a you know,
Speaker 2: what he felt I needed to know. And it wasn't
Speaker 2: until I got involved with family and friends of Missing
Speaker 2: Persons unit counselors and they were fantastic. I can't speak
Speaker 2: of them highly enough. They went digging and got me
Speaker 2: in contact with a social worker. This was well passed
Speaker 2: after the person had been charged and I started being
Speaker 2: able to find out information direct and you know, the
Speaker 2: stuff that I hadn't been told was just phenomenal in
Speaker 2: all honesty, and.
Speaker 1: Look, I'll give a perspective from police, but will balance
Speaker 1: that out as well then that there is sometimes that
Speaker 1: you can't pass information onto people that potential witness in
Speaker 1: a matter. I think most reasonable people understand that you
Speaker 1: said what you would have accepted, and just reminded me
Speaker 1: of time and time again. I've had that same conversation
Speaker 1: with families of murdered victims where they're asking about the investigation,
Speaker 1: and I say, and it was countless times that I
Speaker 1: can't tell you now. The reason I can't tell you
Speaker 1: now is I don't want to jeopardize the investigation. But
Speaker 1: there will be some point in time when we can
Speaker 1: sit down and I will go through absolutely everything and
Speaker 1: answer all your questions. And that seemed to bring some
Speaker 1: comfort to the people that were inquiring, and it gives
Speaker 1: them the confidence that people are working on the investigation.
Speaker 1: We start this chat and we're talking about compassionate humanity
Speaker 1: and empathy. Jesus carries a long way in this type
Speaker 1: of situation, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: It sure does. And you know, if someone had have
Speaker 2: said what you've said, you know, to us that that
Speaker 2: would have been fine. You know, I'm as you said,
Speaker 2: you know reasonable, I understand that there's things that can't
Speaker 2: be said, you don't. You know, the last thing that
Speaker 2: any missing person family, if there's a person of interest
Speaker 2: in the investigation, want to do, is compromise the investigation
Speaker 2: or have it compromised if there's potentially you know, in
Speaker 2: roads being made. The last thing you want to do
Speaker 2: is muck that up. You know, would have been quite
Speaker 2: happy to go Okay, great, no dramas, let us know
Speaker 2: when you can just keep in touch, you know, even
Speaker 2: if it's to say, look, I haven't got any new news,
Speaker 2: but we're still going. It would have made me at
Speaker 2: least feel hurt, and you know, I guess connected in
Speaker 2: the way that someone was doing something if I even
Speaker 2: if I couldn't do it myself because I'm not a
Speaker 2: police officer. My ability lies in other areas. At least
Speaker 2: the people that could were.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's important, and that would make it make a
Speaker 1: difference difference for you, give you some comfort from an
Speaker 1: emotional point of view, the fact that progress has been
Speaker 1: made on the investigation, was it we've mixed emotions because
Speaker 1: the investigation at this point in time had turned into
Speaker 1: a murder investigation. Was it mixed emotions that this information
Speaker 1: was forthcoming to you?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember the day that I found out that
Speaker 2: it had turned into a homicide investigation, and I was
Speaker 2: driving in the car. I was about thirty seconds from home,
Speaker 2: and I walked through the front door and I lost it.
Speaker 2: I absolutely just burst into tears and lost it, and
Speaker 2: my poor husband was like, what's wrong, Like, what's going on?
Speaker 2: And I think it took me five minutes to get
Speaker 2: out that it had changed from a missing person's investigation
Speaker 2: to a homicide. And it's certainly up there with one
Speaker 2: of the worst my life because any hope, majority of
Speaker 2: hope that I had was pretty much quashed. There was
Speaker 2: sort of not really any support offered. You know, I
Speaker 2: didn't have anyone else to talk to apart from my
Speaker 2: husband and you know, his parents, who you know have
Speaker 2: been fantastic as well. And then and then.
Speaker 1: How did you become aware? You said in the in
Speaker 1: the car, was it that.
Speaker 2: I had a phone call? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: And it was just dumped on me. From memory, I
Speaker 2: think it was my stepdad because he'd been hauled into
Speaker 2: the police station to say that that's that's what it
Speaker 2: was now becoming. And it was It was pretty devastating.
Speaker 2: I didn't know how or why they had come to
Speaker 2: that conclusion. I assumed that they must have found her,
Speaker 2: and you know, it was like, oh God. And then
Speaker 2: I don't know if there was a miscommunication or a
Speaker 2: misunderstanding or I was then told no, it's not a
Speaker 2: homicide investigation. It's gone back to a missing persons and
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, hang on a second, and then went
Speaker 2: back to a homicide investigation. So I'm assuming there was
Speaker 2: some sort of miscommunication between the police and my family,
Speaker 2: but that was that was more of a rollercoat, that
Speaker 2: wasn't just a rollercoaster ride, that was being dropped off
Speaker 2: a cliff face. And after that, I was like, no,
Speaker 2: I can't just accept that she's gone on the basis
Speaker 2: of that. They've changed the investigations. So I was like,
Speaker 2: until I see or hear a forensic evidence, I will
Speaker 2: keep a small shred of hope alive. And that's basically
Speaker 2: what got me out of it in the morning. For
Speaker 2: a very long time.
Speaker 1: Okay, I can see the emotion and hear the emotion
Speaker 1: that I reliving that. I'm sorry we're talking about this
Speaker 1: because it's clearly clearly upsetting the person, the suspect and
Speaker 1: the person that was charged with Liesl's murder, James Church.
Speaker 1: Did you know him? When did you become aware of
Speaker 1: the name?
Speaker 2: So my stepdad he'd mentioned that Lisa had been seeing him,
Speaker 2: and then obviously you know with media reports when he
Speaker 2: was arrested and you know, going through the court process,
Speaker 2: I had seen him once and the only reason I
Speaker 2: recognized him was because i'd seen his picture in the media,
Speaker 2: you know, when he'd been arrested.
Speaker 1: When you said you've seen him once growing up or early, well.
Speaker 2: This was after oh, this was before he'd been charged.
Speaker 2: I was driving where my stepdad lives and happened to
Speaker 2: see him from a memory. I didn't say anything, I
Speaker 2: didn't speak to him. I literally drove past him and
Speaker 2: that was it.
Speaker 1: And what was his association with Lisel?
Speaker 2: He was a farrier and that's how they met. He
Speaker 2: ended up helping her with her horses, and she ended
Speaker 2: up helping I think to some degree, you know, with
Speaker 2: the horses that he had, or horses of friends of
Speaker 2: his or something. I'm not quite strong the details, but
Speaker 2: you know, the horse world is relatively small, so I
Speaker 2: guess it was a matter of time before they ran
Speaker 2: into each other.
Speaker 1: And as far you knew at that time that did
Speaker 1: you know they were in the relationship or having the
Speaker 1: relationship prior to Losl's not prior to Lisel's disappearance, but
Speaker 1: prior to James Church being charged.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I knew that they'd been in some sort of relationship.
Speaker 2: The parameters of that obviously I wasn't entirely clear about
Speaker 2: but I did know that that had some sort of
Speaker 2: thing going I guess, but I didn't. I wasn't fully
Speaker 2: aware of just exactly what had been going on until
Speaker 2: the trial.
Speaker 1: Okay, when he was charged? How did you find out
Speaker 1: that there's one thing that's a person of interest in it? Investigation?
Speaker 1: Next step is if someone's been charged. How did you
Speaker 1: find out that James Church had been charged?
Speaker 2: My stepdad rang me and told me, I can't remember
Speaker 2: where I was or what I was doing, but I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, okay, and then jumped online and it
Speaker 2: showed him being arrested and you know, being led into
Speaker 2: the I think it was the police house, not the
Speaker 2: footage that was there.
Speaker 1: I could imagine a thousand questions going through your mind
Speaker 1: at that stage.
Speaker 2: The biggest thing for me that will never be answered
Speaker 2: is why she trusted him. You know, she obviously trusted him,
Speaker 2: And I will never ever understand how someone who is
Speaker 2: so special apparently or you know, as he said, you know,
Speaker 2: they had such a special relationship, you know, they were
Speaker 2: more than best mates. How what or what would possess
Speaker 2: you to think that treating someone like that is okay?
Speaker 1: How does it get to that we in the conversation
Speaker 1: that we we had a couple of days back, you're saying,
Speaker 1: have this just seemed so surreal to you because it's
Speaker 1: not a world that you see glimpses of on TV.
Speaker 1: You see it in the movies, you see this, but
Speaker 1: here you are a person has been in charge with
Speaker 1: the murder of your sister.
Speaker 2: In some ways, there was relief. You know, I remember thinking, well,
Speaker 2: they finally got someone. And my understanding of the process
Speaker 2: is that there has to be substantial evidence to charge
Speaker 2: someone with a charge like that. You know, it's not
Speaker 2: something or you know, you forged a signature, it's.
Speaker 1: It's a pretty serious.
Speaker 2: You know, it's probably one of the most serious things
Speaker 2: that you can be charged with, and that you know,
Speaker 2: police need to take the case to the DPP and
Speaker 2: you know, make a case, and you know, you say, look,
Speaker 2: we have a fairly with you substantial conviction that we
Speaker 2: will get this, you know through and you know, obviously
Speaker 2: the DPAP is privy to a whole bunch of things,
Speaker 2: and know, sub standard that needs to be met, and
Speaker 2: you know, the chances of getting a conviction based on
Speaker 2: the evidence. You know, there's all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: So it's not something that's taken lightly, was my understanding.
Speaker 2: So I thought, Okay, well, they've obviously got something, you know,
Speaker 2: and again I was like, right, until I have forensics,
Speaker 2: she's not gone. And so I was relieved in some
Speaker 2: some ways that Okay, they've they've got something that, you know,
Speaker 2: not changed, they're tuned, but they've progressed, I guess with
Speaker 2: how they viewed this particular person. He's gone from a
Speaker 2: person of interest too, you know, a suspect. And I
Speaker 2: remember also feeling guilty that there was relief because you know,
Speaker 2: you don't want to acknowledge that they're gone, because then
Speaker 2: you know you're I guess the term survivors guild. You
Speaker 2: know they're not here, but you are. And you've basically
Speaker 2: gone on with your life for the last six years
Speaker 2: because you've had to, you know, and all the things
Speaker 2: that society you know, celebrates and whatnot has happened as well.
Speaker 2: And then I remember thinking, I need, I need to
Speaker 2: find out how they've gotten to this point, and I
Speaker 2: got in touch with the solicitor who was in charge
Speaker 2: of the case. I'd spoken to the social worker, and
Speaker 2: I remember I got the phone call at work. It
Speaker 2: was midshift, and I asked a number of questions, and
Speaker 2: obviously they were constrained with what they could answer. I
Speaker 2: actually found speaking to them a lot better than speaking
Speaker 2: to the police, and I remember asking is their forensic evidence?
Speaker 2: Like you know' that's my end point. And I remember
Speaker 2: she was really lovely. She went very quiet and she
Speaker 2: was like, I'm really sorry. We have no doubt that
Speaker 2: she's dead. And she wasn't. She wasn't trying to be
Speaker 2: horrible in the way that she said that, but I
Speaker 2: think she wanted to make sure that there was clarification.
Speaker 2: There was absolutely no confusion about their position. And I
Speaker 2: was like, are you sure, and they said, yeah, we're sorry,
Speaker 2: but you know, we're convinced that she's no longer here.
Speaker 2: I remember thanking them, funnily enough, hanging up the phone,
Speaker 2: walking out with tears praying down my face, and one
Speaker 2: of the sane members on staff took one look at
Speaker 2: me and went, what's wrong. And I remember saying, just
Speaker 2: get one of the bosses, because they knew what was
Speaker 2: going on. And I walked back into the locker room
Speaker 2: and collapsed in front of my locker and sobbed. One
Speaker 2: of my bosses came in because she knew what was
Speaker 2: going on, and they called Matt. He had to come
Speaker 2: and get me from work.
Speaker 1: I obviously couldn't.
Speaker 2: Finish the shift, and I from memory, I think I
Speaker 2: took a couple of days off work after that I
Speaker 2: was due and your leave as well, so I ended up,
Speaker 2: I think all up having about three weeks off just
Speaker 2: trying to process. Fortunately, for the latter part of the
Speaker 2: time that I had off, we were actually out of
Speaker 2: the country. We're overseas, so I was able to get
Speaker 2: out and not be at home and easily contactable, which
Speaker 2: was a good thing in hindsight.
Speaker 1: Just like the emotional journey that you're on going through
Speaker 1: the start with your sister missing, then not hearing anything,
Speaker 1: then finally years down the track and we're talking six years,
Speaker 1: aren't we.
Speaker 2: Yeah he was charged in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1: Down the track, and then processing with that look, I think,
Speaker 1: how about we take a break now, and yeah, apologize
Speaker 1: for taking you through this, because we're obviously digging up
Speaker 1: some raw emotions. But this is the impact, and I
Speaker 1: think it articulates very clearly what you've described, the impact
Speaker 1: that when loved one goes missing or is murdered that
Speaker 1: the ramifications just go right through and it's such a difficult,
Speaker 1: difficult thing to come to terms with and deal with
Speaker 1: when we get back in the part two, let's talk
Speaker 1: about the trial, the highs and the lows of the
Speaker 1: trial because they are an emotional rollercoaster within themselves, but
Speaker 1: the dramatic twist at the end that no one saw
Speaker 1: coming and when Nana discupts options on how you might
Speaker 1: be able to get some answers and justice to find
Speaker 1: out what's happened to your sister. So let's take a break.
Speaker 1: I think we all need to need a break because
Speaker 1: of pretty heavy, heavy topic, and we'll come back and
Speaker 1: cover those points in part two.
Speaker 2: Nice thanks Jim
Speaker 1: Cheers, then their food and told die mis