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Speaker 1: Hi, guys. Two years ago we spoke to Geraldine Kane,

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Speaker 1: whose sister Lisel Smith was murdered and her body has

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Speaker 1: never been found. A man called Jim Church was charged

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Speaker 1: with murder of Lisel and what followed was a lengthy

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Speaker 1: thirteen and a half week trial. But just hours before

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Speaker 1: the judge handed down the verdict, Church took his own life,

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Speaker 1: which meant the judge's decision is sealed forever, meaning the

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Speaker 1: family will never know if Church was found guilty or not.

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Speaker 1: From my observations, the police have done a very thorough

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Speaker 1: investigation into the disappearance of Lisel. During our podcast with

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Speaker 1: Geraldine in twenty twenty three, we called for a cranial inquest,

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Speaker 1: and now two years later, that's exactly where we are.

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Speaker 1: We're here for the inquest into the suspicious disappearance of

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Speaker 1: Lisel Smith, who was just twenty three years old when

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Speaker 1: she vanished from the Central Coast on New South Wales

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Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. It was a unique situation. When I

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Speaker 1: say unique. First of all, Geraline, thanks for having a

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Speaker 1: chat here.

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Speaker 2: No problem, thanks for having me harry again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, just to explain, because it was a case

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Speaker 1: that was very troubling and the end results and are

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Speaker 1: the ones that have really I haven't seen it occur

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Speaker 1: in all the time that I've been involved in homicide

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Speaker 1: investigations or missing persons. What happened. The person was charged

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Speaker 1: with Liesl's murder and it was a murder trial was

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Speaker 1: conducted with a judge only trial, so there was no jury,

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Speaker 1: and then the judge has made the decision. Following I

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Speaker 1: think it was thirteen weeks thirteen and a half, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thirteen and a half weeks of evidence where the murder

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Speaker 1: trial was run, the judge had come to a conclusion

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Speaker 1: and she'd summoned all the interested parties into appear at court.

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Speaker 1: On that very day, the person that was charged with

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Speaker 1: the murder killed himself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently, I think it was the day before that

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Speaker 2: we got the phone call stating that there'd been a

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Speaker 2: notification to ambulance and police that there was a deceased

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Speaker 2: person at his address and we were due to fly

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Speaker 2: up the morning of the verdict, and the social worker

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Speaker 2: rang me and said that there'd been a development, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, you know what, he's guilty, and I would

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Speaker 2: have been quite surprised if that had been the case,

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Speaker 2: and she was quite hesitant to explain over the phone,

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Speaker 2: and I said her, you need to tell me because

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Speaker 2: I'm at work and I've got five and a half

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Speaker 2: hours to go and with what I do, I can't

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Speaker 2: not be focused. So she got in contact with the

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Speaker 2: two DPP barristers who were running the case at the time.

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Speaker 2: She needed to have a quick chat to them, and

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Speaker 2: then she was going to get back to me, and

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Speaker 2: I said great. She rang me back and said that

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Speaker 2: ambulance and police, in particular the detectives were on their

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Speaker 2: way to confirm that he had committed suicide. As I

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Speaker 2: said on the podcast, I believe, I swore, and then

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Speaker 2: said to my boss I was off the floor. My

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Speaker 2: husband had to come and pick me up, and we

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Speaker 2: ended up having a teleconference at work using my boss's computer,

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Speaker 2: and we were warned that it was most likely that

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Speaker 2: we wouldn't get a verdict, but they weren't sure because,

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Speaker 2: as you said, it never happened before. They'd had to

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Speaker 2: go back through common law in Australia to see if

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Speaker 2: there was any similar situations, although they were pretty confident

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Speaker 2: that there weren't, and they'd also gone back to the

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Speaker 2: UK to look at it as well. Because of the

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Speaker 2: way that the leagues to see if the precedence they

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Speaker 2: had come across something sort of similar, where it had

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Speaker 2: been a judge and jury. The jury had found the

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Speaker 2: accused guilty on a number of charges, but I think

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Speaker 2: either hadn't deliberated or we're in the process of deliberating

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Speaker 2: on the others. When the accus stood committed suicide, that

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Speaker 2: was sort of the only thing that came close. Otherwise,

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Speaker 2: for all intents and purposes, they've nod.

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Speaker 1: So it's unprecedented one. I know, when we're on the

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Speaker 1: talking on the podcast, I was sort of putting my

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Speaker 1: mind to it, and I couldn't recall a situation similar.

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Speaker 1: But I felt then in discussions with view, it would

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Speaker 1: be a simple process if it went to the coroner

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Speaker 1: and the judges got the already made the decision. I

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Speaker 1: can understand there might be some legislation that prevents the

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Speaker 1: documentation and or the judges' findings being handed over, even

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Speaker 1: though from a common sense point I'm going to say,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to sound like a sensible and the legal

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Speaker 1: from a common sense point of view, I can't, for

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Speaker 1: the life of me see why the decision by the

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Speaker 1: judge can't be passed on to the coroner. The coron

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Speaker 1: that can have a look at that and then make

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Speaker 1: a finding based on that.

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Speaker 2: So I had a meeting with the Attorney General, and

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Speaker 2: his response from the Legal Department, and I'm not entirely

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Speaker 2: sure who constitutes that, was that you can't give a

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Speaker 2: verdict if there's no one to punish, because there is

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Speaker 2: a likelihood that they will be found guilty. The other

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Speaker 2: thing is that you know, the way that the law

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Speaker 2: currently stands is that if at any process during the

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Speaker 2: trial the accused becomes deceased, then that's the end of

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Speaker 2: the trial. And that's the way that the law stands.

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Speaker 2: And my response was, well, that doesn't mean that it

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Speaker 2: can't be changed. So from my perspective, he participated in

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Speaker 2: the trial the way that he decided to. He had

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Speaker 2: full ability to do so. And once the end of

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Speaker 2: that trial was reached and everyone was dismissed and the

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Speaker 2: judge retired to consider her verdict, you're not going to

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Speaker 2: have her come across anything new or untoward or suddenly

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Speaker 2: be found for her to rewrite a verdict. And the

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Speaker 2: fact that he committed suicide doesn't change what she'd already written.

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Speaker 2: I think in that aspect, the family at least are owed,

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Speaker 2: you know, the knowledge of what that verdict was. And

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Speaker 2: I've since found out that not even the coroner has

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Speaker 2: access to it. It is sealed from anybody at all,

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Speaker 2: apart from the judge who was going to deliver it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's complex. It seems so simple looking from outside,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it. And they were referring to the principle of

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Speaker 1: abatement where the trial ends with the death of the

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Speaker 1: accused because there's no one to punish. But yeah, sadly

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Speaker 1: it's the families family of your sister that's been punished

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Speaker 1: not finding out what's happened. I'm getting a sense and

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Speaker 1: just seeing the first morning of the inquest, to my

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Speaker 1: way of thinking, there's a whole lot of evidence being

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Speaker 1: presented to the coroner. That is the type of evidence

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Speaker 1: that would have been presented in the murder trial, and

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Speaker 1: the coroner were making her findings based on the information

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Speaker 1: that's presented to it. But understanding, this is an in quest,

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Speaker 1: so it's not the same as a criminal court.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So my understanding is that there is a standard

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Speaker 2: that has to be reached for a criminal court. Evidence

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Speaker 2: has to reach that standard before.

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Speaker 1: It can be beyond the red submitted.

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Speaker 2: And a coroner's in quest is where they look at

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Speaker 2: all the evidence and its relevance to the case. So

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Speaker 2: there's been stuff that has been included in coroners that

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Speaker 2: wasn't included in criminal court because of its relevance. And

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Speaker 2: another thing with that is if anything can be deemed

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Speaker 2: prejudicial in the criminal court, then it wouldn't be admitted either.

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Speaker 2: So there's parts of it that I'm certainly familiar with,

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Speaker 2: and then there's other aspects that are slightly new to me,

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Speaker 2: simply because I wasn't allowed to, as we've spoken, witness

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Speaker 2: what was going on in court for the first two weeks.

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Speaker 2: And there's other things that you know, I just I

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Speaker 2: wasn't aware of because as hard as you try, I

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Speaker 2: wasn't able to watch everything. So yeah, there's a distinct difference.

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Speaker 2: I also find that Cournus Court is a lot more

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Speaker 2: supportive of the family, Like it was acknowledged of us

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Speaker 2: that we were there and that it's been quite trying.

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Speaker 2: But it's pretty harrowing to have to re listen to

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Speaker 2: someone life through their teeth, to be quite honest.

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Speaker 1: Well, sitting sitting there today and yeah, that's the difference

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Speaker 1: between an inquisitorial which is the inquest, and the adversarial system,

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Speaker 1: which is the criminal courts. But I was very mindful

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Speaker 1: of yourself and other family members sitting there and hearing

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Speaker 1: hearing the evidence play out again. You've already been through it,

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Speaker 1: been for it once, and here you are again. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, call me a simple man, but I would

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Speaker 1: like to think with a stroke of a pen and

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Speaker 1: then Attorney General could make an informed decision and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is a unique set of circumstances. This hasn't occurred

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Speaker 1: before because what you relayed where they look back in

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Speaker 1: the past law even over to the UK, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: the exact set of circumstances. This was a unique set

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Speaker 1: of circumstances. I think it would be very extremely unlikely

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Speaker 1: it would occur again and perhaps save a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: a lot of banks and a lot of heartache, and

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Speaker 1: a simple decision could have been made.

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Speaker 2: I hope that the government looks at this and takes

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Speaker 2: whatever recommendations the coroner has decided that she needs to

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Speaker 2: do on board. She can't force them. One of those

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Speaker 2: things would be to stop another family going through the

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Speaker 2: same thing. And as you said, it's a unique set

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Speaker 2: of circumstances. You can be quite specific with legislation. You

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Speaker 2: can say, you know, you can put certain parameters around

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Speaker 2: so that it can't be used to as a precedent

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Speaker 2: for other cases or to other situations. So no, I don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's that hard either.

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Speaker 1: No, And I understand the in fairness to the coroner,

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Speaker 1: she's bound by the legislation than the counsel assisting. But

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Speaker 1: I see what the family is going through, and my

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Speaker 1: observation of the police as well that they're frustrated by this.

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Speaker 1: It seems to be they've already done this and now

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Speaker 1: they're doing it again. So yeah, I again, in very

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Speaker 1: simplistic terms, I think the laws there the serve society,

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Speaker 1: and if society is not being served, maybe there needs

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Speaker 1: to be changes.

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Speaker 2: I'm in complete and utter agreement, especially with all the

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Speaker 2: man hours and the work that they put into the investigation.

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Speaker 2: You know, you've experienced it yourself, time away from kids,

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Speaker 2: time away from family, you know, missing out on point

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Speaker 2: and celebrations and you know, random phone calls in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the night and all that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: You know, I just think all that work and to

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Speaker 2: not get a result in any way, shape or form.

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Speaker 2: It's an insult.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you want to get a sense of who

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Speaker 1: Lisel was and what her family has been through, how

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Speaker 1: about you have a listen to our original interview we

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Speaker 1: did with Geraldine. Have a listen. The public has had

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Speaker 1: a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side

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Speaker 1: of life. The average person has never exposed her I

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Speaker 1: spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five

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Speaker 1: of those years I was catching killers. That's what I

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Speaker 1: did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm

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Speaker 1: no longer just interviewing bad guys, said, I'm taking the

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Speaker 1: public into the world in which I operated. The guests

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Speaker 1: I talk to each week have amazing stories from all

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Speaker 1: sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talked to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes in the contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Lisel Smith

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Speaker 1: was just twenty three years old when she vanished from

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Speaker 1: the central coast of New South Wales. That was back

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Speaker 1: in twenty twelve, the New South Wales Lees believe that

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Speaker 1: she was murdered and they know who is responsible. Despite this,

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Speaker 1: no one has been convicted of the suspected murder. Today's

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Speaker 1: guest is Liesl's older sister, Geraldine Kane. Geraline contacted me

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Speaker 1: and asked if I could help her get justice for

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Speaker 1: a sister. Knowing the pain suffered by families to find

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Speaker 1: justice for missing or murdered loved ones, it was a

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Speaker 1: difficult request to say no to. I never worked on

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Speaker 1: Liesl's case, but I am for me with what appears

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Speaker 1: to be an unprecedented roadblock in finding out what happened

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Speaker 1: to Lisel. I think there is power in telling stories,

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Speaker 1: so I asked Geraldine to come on I Catch Killers

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Speaker 1: and share her story. Who knows, perhaps if enough people

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Speaker 1: are aware of what has occurred, the justice system might

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Speaker 1: just find the way to provide answers for a grieving family.

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Speaker 1: I honestly don't think it's that hard. Geraldine Kine, welcome

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Speaker 1: to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me Gay Well.

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Speaker 1: Look, firstly, up front, I want to offer my condolences

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Speaker 1: to what you've been through as a family with the

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Speaker 1: disappearance of your sister Lisel Smith. And I know it's

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Speaker 1: ten years ago or a little bit more. The pain

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Speaker 1: doesn't go away, does it.

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Speaker 2: No, you learn to live with it, but you never

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Speaker 2: get over it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think people unless you've been there, people don't understand.

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Speaker 1: And I know in the times that I spent in homicide,

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Speaker 1: I had people and I was mortified when I heard

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Speaker 1: them say it, especially to families of missing persons or

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Speaker 1: people that have been murdered, that you just got to

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Speaker 1: get on with your life. And it's easier said than done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it certainly is. I remember when I first heard

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Speaker 2: that Lisal had gone missing, my world essentially stopped, you know,

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I became one of those people

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Speaker 2: that happened to and the world just stopped for me.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think it was about It took

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Speaker 2: a good twelve months before felt like it started back

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Speaker 2: up again and took me with it. And that was

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Speaker 2: something that I wasn't prepared for. You know, it's you

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Speaker 2: get the news that your sister's missing, and you know

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Speaker 2: you want everyone to jump on board and do everything

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Speaker 2: that they can. And Loaren a founder of MPN, which

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Speaker 2: is now known as the Misfoundation put it quite well

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Speaker 2: in terms of, you know, you expect what you say

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Speaker 2: on TV to occur. You know, you expect the dogs,

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Speaker 2: and you expect all the police force, and we had nothing.

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Speaker 2: We really didn't get any of that. And from what

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Speaker 2: I understand that's a lot of other people's experiences that

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Speaker 2: have got missing people as well, is that everyone else

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Speaker 2: tends to or it seems to be, seems to go

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Speaker 2: on with their daily lives like nothing's happened, and you're

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Speaker 2: standing in the middle of it, or feeling like, well,

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Speaker 2: hang on, you know, my sister's missing, this is important.

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Speaker 2: Why aren't you doing anything? And it's it's a very

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Speaker 2: discompopulating feeling in all honesty. It you know, work goes

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Speaker 2: life goes on, and you can't stop it. No matter

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Speaker 2: what you want done or how you want things done.

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Speaker 2: Life still goes on. But for you it seems to stop.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a couple of points that you've raised air

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Speaker 1: and you articulated very well. But firstly, there's a disconnect

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Speaker 1: from us when I say us people that haven't been

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Speaker 1: impacted like you and your family have been impacted because

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Speaker 1: we watch it play out on TV. Someone's gone missing,

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Speaker 1: and you'd be thinking, Oh, that's that would be bad,

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Speaker 1: but then it's a fleeting thought and then you get

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Speaker 1: on with your life. And it's really the type of

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Speaker 1: situation that you never think that you would find yourself in.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's why people we almost and I

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Speaker 1: hate to say it, but become desensitized to it because

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Speaker 1: it gets reported that often and Okay, well that's happened,

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Speaker 1: let's move on. But you articulated very well that you

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Speaker 1: want the world to stop. Your loved one is missing,

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Speaker 1: something terrible has happened. You know, your worst thoughts would

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Speaker 1: be going through your mind. Why is the world carrying

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Speaker 1: on as usual? How can people celebrate a weekend coming up?

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Speaker 1: Or how can people look forward to anything because you've

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Speaker 1: got your love one missing. Is that the type of

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Speaker 1: deep emotion you feel?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I liken it to what I do

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Speaker 2: for work. So my background is critical care and emergency

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Speaker 2: and ICU, and I was working in ICU towards the end,

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Speaker 2: but initially when I found out that Least was missing,

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Speaker 2: I was in remote wa and I was doing My

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Speaker 2: initial background is emergency and you know, I have seen

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Speaker 2: some very interesting and very tragic things occur in the

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Speaker 2: course of my career. I'm a registered nurse, and I

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Speaker 2: have had to constantly remind myself that, yes, this is

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Speaker 2: what I do. I love what I do. I empathize,

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Speaker 2: you know, with a lot of the patients that I

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Speaker 2: care for and have cared for, and yes I do it,

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Speaker 2: you know, as a career. But I am constantly aware

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Speaker 2: of that while that's my career, you know, I can

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Speaker 2: still step away from it. And you know, for the

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Speaker 2: people that whatever has occurred, especially tragic situations, that this

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Speaker 2: is that has occurred to them, it's the worst day

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Speaker 2: of their lives, you know, and they're going through that

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Speaker 2: experience for the first time ever. They may or may

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Speaker 2: not ever go through something similar again, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it's all new for them. And I liken to finding

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Speaker 2: out les or going missing, to being put in that position.

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Speaker 2: You know, people that you come into contact with that

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Speaker 2: for example, police that do their job such as this

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Speaker 2: on a day on, day in, day out basis. You know,

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Speaker 2: my experience is certainly that some do forget that you know,

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Speaker 2: what you're going through you've never experienced before, and some

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Speaker 2: compassion and empathy goes a long way, as does communication.

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Speaker 1: I understand that because what you're talking about in the

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Speaker 1: emergency section of a hospital, people can be and we've

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Speaker 1: all encountered doctors in those situations that they're a little

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Speaker 1: bit aloof and just okay, well, you've got six months

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Speaker 1: to live that type of coutry and then walk out

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Speaker 1: the door a little bit of humanity, compassion and empathy.

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Speaker 1: You've just know that it makes such a difference, doesn't

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Speaker 1: it If anyone in that position, whether it be in

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Speaker 1: the medical section or in policing, that carries a lot,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it?

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Speaker 2: It does, And it's just it's I think it's that

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Speaker 2: human connection that you know, someone who doesn't know you

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Speaker 2: from a burrow soap can sit and just listen. You

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Speaker 2: don't you don't expect them to fix the problem. You know, realistically,

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Speaker 2: you know that there's no possible way of the problem

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Speaker 2: being fixed. But you've at least connected on a human level.

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Speaker 2: You know, you've been listened to, and you've been heard,

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Speaker 2: and it's been recognized that what you're experiencing, for one

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Speaker 2: of a better word, really sucks. And just that recognition,

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Speaker 2: I think is what anybody wants or needs, or even

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Speaker 2: if they can't verbalize it, you know, desires in that

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Speaker 2: moment of experiencing such a tragedy or whatever situation is

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Speaker 2: going on for them. And I think that gets lost

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Speaker 2: these days by any number of people. And I think

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Speaker 2: that the meaning and I guess the meaningfulness of it

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Speaker 2: and the impact it has on someone is not to

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Speaker 2: be underestimated.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not not fully appreciated in some regards. I

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Speaker 1: just want to get a sense of your world at

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Speaker 1: the time. But first of all, let's find out about Lisel.

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Speaker 1: Who she was. She was a younger sister.

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Speaker 2: She was a younger sister.

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Speaker 1: Yes, tell us about Lisal before she disappeared.

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Speaker 2: Gosh. I was actually thinking a couple of days ago

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Speaker 2: a story popped into my head. I was at school.

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Speaker 2: I think Lisal was at home. She hadn't started KINDI

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Speaker 2: or anything at that point in time. And I got

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Speaker 2: in trouble for losing my school shoes. And I'd been

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Speaker 2: in trouble quite a few times before, and this particular time,

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Speaker 2: I got in quite a lot of trouble because it

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Speaker 2: had been a couple of days and we couldn't find them,

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Speaker 2: and I was adamant I'd left them at the front door,

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Speaker 2: and it was getting to the point where I was

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Speaker 2: going to need a new pair of school shoes. And

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Speaker 2: so we had a dam. We grew up on a property,

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Speaker 2: and there were my school shoes half in the dam

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Speaker 2: and half out, and I'm like, well, I didn't go

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Speaker 2: down there. And you know what had actually happened was

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Speaker 2: lee'saul had wanted to feed the ducks. So she grabbed

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Speaker 2: a loaf of bread that had gone missing. That was

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Speaker 2: the other thing that no one could work out at

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00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:35,919
Speaker 2: the time, a loaf of bread from the kitchen, and

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Speaker 2: decided to go feed the ducks. Well, the only shoes

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Speaker 2: that were near the back door were my school shoes,

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Speaker 2: so she's popped them on and she's wandered down and

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Speaker 2: my stepped out at the time was in my NaN's house.

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Speaker 2: Switch we had two houses on the property, and just

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Speaker 2: so happened to see Lisal halfway up, I believe in

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Speaker 2: up to her waisting water in the dam, flew out

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Speaker 2: of NaN's house, flew down across to the down It

376
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Speaker 2: was good, you know, two hundred and fifty odd meters plus,

377
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Speaker 2: you know, pulled her out of the water because she's

378
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Speaker 2: you know, wanting to feed ducks and keep going in

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Speaker 2: And didn't realize at the time that she'd wore my

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Speaker 2: school shoes down.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so a young younger sister, even at that stage

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Speaker 1: course causing, knew dramas.

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Speaker 2: Oh not dramas, but her focus was the animals.

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Speaker 1: So, okay, that's pretty cool. What age difference was it

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Speaker 1: between you two?

386
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Speaker 2: There was nine years, so she was born in nineteen

387
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Speaker 2: eighty nine. The sury in our family goes that my

388
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Speaker 2: mum went into labor on April Fool's Day, Fool's Day,

389
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Speaker 2: and she flat out she used to have an April

390
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Speaker 2: Fool's baby, so she didn't start pushing until it hit April.

391
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Speaker 1: A second, she waited, she waited.

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Speaker 2: She was not having a baby on the April. The

393
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Speaker 2: first put it that way.

394
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Speaker 1: And where did you guys grow up where they were?

395
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Speaker 2: Well, you're up on the Central Coast. So there's a

396
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Speaker 2: suburb called blue Haven which is all developed out now.

397
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Speaker 1: But we had changed dramatically.

398
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Speaker 2: Has it has changed? I don't even recognize where I

399
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 2: grew up anymore. We grew up on fifty acres. It

400
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,479
Speaker 2: was all semi rural at the time, and blue Haven

401
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 2: was the main part of the suburb was down the

402
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Speaker 2: road that we lived on. Our property backed onto the

403
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Speaker 2: Pacific Highway, the oh Pacific Highway going up through doyleson

404
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 2: up to Swansea, and we were pretty much, you know,

405
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Speaker 2: free to rime. I remember being told if I got lost,

406
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Speaker 2: because I used to take myself on expeditions, either keep

407
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 2: going on direction, I'd either hit the neighbors, the road

408
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 2: that we lived on, or the Pacific Highway and then

409
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Speaker 2: just follow it around until I got home.

410
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Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So at the time it was at twenty

411
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Speaker 1: twelve Lese will disappeared, Yes, correct, What was what was

412
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Speaker 1: your situation there? You mentioned you're working in the remote

413
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Speaker 1: location in Wa at the time.

414
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'd moved to Tazzi about eighteen months before

415
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Speaker 2: for work and budget cuts went through and I was

416
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Speaker 2: on a contract and that wasn't renewed. So it was

417
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Speaker 2: the last minute scramble at the time to find work elsewhere.

418
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Speaker 2: And so I'd always wanted to go to remote and

419
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Speaker 2: after a discussion my partner who I'm now married to,

420
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Speaker 2: and going through an agency, I ended up in Leonora,

421
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Speaker 2: of all places, which is it was a good introduction.

422
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Speaker 1: What part of Wa is that.

423
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Speaker 2: It's about It's two and a half hours northeast of

424
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Speaker 2: Calgooli Okay, yeah, so we are Goldfield.

425
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Speaker 1: It's remote, Yeah, very very remote. Yeah, so Lisa, what

426
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Speaker 1: was she doing at that stage of her life? She

427
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: was twenty three?

428
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, about that she was involved working for horse stables.

429
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Speaker 2: She was living with my step or my stepdad, her dad,

430
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Speaker 2: and we didn't talk a lot. We hadn't sort of

431
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Speaker 2: seen each other in a while.

432
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Speaker 1: But she was that tafe.

433
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Speaker 2: She was doing a I think it was a certificate

434
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 2: in Animal management management all was something. You know, she

435
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 2: loved animals, She loved working with horses in particular, as

436
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 2: you know, she had a as people might know, she

437
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 2: had a horse, Molly that was in full that she

438
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: was really looking forward to. Yeah, and you know, it

439
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 2: seemed to be quite happy with what she was doing

440
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 2: with her life as far as I was aware.

441
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're and I'm just trying to get a

442
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: sense of it so people can appreciate the impact that

443
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 1: the following events have. You're living as families do. You're

444
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: living on the other or different locations, but you're still

445
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: in contact. There's probably not as much as you should,

446
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, you're there for each other. When

447
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: did you find out when was the first inclination you

448
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: got that Liseel was missing.

449
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: It was I think two weeks after she'd gone missing.

450
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 2: Timeline's a bit sketchy. At the time. I actually got

451
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: an email from my stepdad from memory saying that Lisa

452
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 2: gone missing. What I didn't know at the time and

453
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 2: found out later was that she'd been missing for a

454
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: week before she was reported to the police as been

455
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 2: missing by my stepdad.

456
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: Any any reason for that at all the circumstances, or.

457
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: You'd have to ask him, right, I have no idea.

458
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: I've talked about it with my husband since, and as

459
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: he's indicated to me, you know, if I wasn't home

460
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 2: at the time that I said that I was home,

461
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,360
Speaker 2: he'd start ringing people. You know, he'd give me half

462
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: an hour grace. You know, we've all got phones, and

463
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: if he hadn't heard from me, then you know, he'd

464
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 2: start making contact with friends and work and you know,

465
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: start going where is she, what she's doing? So I

466
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 2: don't know his reasons for that, And I remember just

467
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: looking at the email in utter disbelief and thinking, missing,

468
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 2: what do you mean she's gone missing? Like, you know,

469
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 2: hang on a second, And I remember contacting the local

470
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 2: police officer. I think it was like a two man

471
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 2: police station in Leonora. It certainly wasn't a big one.

472
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 2: And he'd know me because he'd brought people in to

473
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 2: the hospital and all that sort of stuff. So he

474
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: was able to verify my identity and he tried to

475
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 2: get in contact with New South Wales police to try

476
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: and find out for me, and they wouldn't tell him

477
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 2: a thing.

478
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 1: So one play service not tell any other police service.

479
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: Revolutionary I know, yeah, pretty much. They wouldn't give him

480
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 2: any information whatsoever. And he was like, look, I can

481
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 2: verify I've seen her id she works at the hospital,

482
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: and they wouldn't give him any information. I was, I

483
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: think a month and a bit off finishing the contract

484
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: that I had, and so there wasn't really a lot

485
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 2: that I could do at the time, and I didn't

486
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 2: know how to get in contact, like I didn't know

487
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: where she'd been reported as missing or who I was

488
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 2: able to talk to. He managed to from memory get

489
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 2: those details and I ended up having I think an

490
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,360
Speaker 2: initial touch base and they sort of asked me, when

491
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 2: was the last time you'd seen her, and I said, well,

492
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 2: it was eighteen months prior to that, yep, where I'd

493
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: had a conversation with her, and then they sort of

494
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: mentioned that they wanted me to come in for a

495
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 2: statement at some point, but they didn't seemed to be

496
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: a huge amount of urgency over.

497
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: It was that when you were was that communication by

498
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 1: the phone when you're still in wa or.

499
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: Yes, I had to pick up another phone because the

500
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 2: phone service that I was with at the time wasn't covered,

501
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 2: So I believe the communication was through that phone. It

502
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 2: wasn't through my normal phone.

503
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 1: Numbal, What was going through your mind? Like your stepfather

504
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: has sent you an email and said, look at your

505
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 1: sister's missing. Did you have details missing in suspicious circumstances

506
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: or missing as in she said she's going to go

507
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: travel around Australia or she What was going through your mind?

508
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 2: I was incredulous. I was a bit flabbergast. Said that

509
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: she was missing and I was being given minimal detail.

510
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: All he'd said was that she had left a house

511
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 2: at one o'clock in the afternoon on Sunday, the nineteenth August.

512
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 2: She had dressed up to some degree, and he said,

513
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: you know, because I had a conversation with him later

514
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: she looked really good, and that she said, I'll be

515
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: back at five to feed the animals because the horses

516
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: needed feeding and she had you know, she had a

517
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 2: dog called Natsi, and if there was a few other

518
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: animals that were that were there at the time. And

519
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 2: she didn't initially come home at five, he didn't, I believe,

520
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: think too much of it. You know, she's a grown woman.

521
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: She might have gotten caught up or something. And then

522
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: sort of time went on and she didn't turn up,

523
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: and then the night went she didn't turn up. So

524
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 2: I believe he assumed she'd stayed the night somewhere and

525
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: a phone was flat or something. I don't know, but yeah,

526
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: it wasn't til a week later that he reported her missing,

527
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: which I just I don't understand to this day. I

528
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 2: just don't understand how you can wait a week even

529
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: giving someone oh, you know, they've probably crashed somewhere or

530
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: their phone side or you know whatever, twenty four hours, okay, fine,

531
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: But you know, in this day and age, I mean

532
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: even a decade ago, there were ways in means of

533
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: contacting people, do you know what I mean?

534
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: And one hundred percent and there's different ways, and there's

535
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: this fallacy that you can't report people missing unless it's

536
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: been twenty four hours and all that. I think lazy

537
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: police just spread that message because circumstances dictate whether something's

538
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: concerning or something suspicious. And when you've got a lady

539
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: like your sister who said I'm going to be home

540
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: at such and such a time, has responsibilities at home

541
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: that clearly she shows she's reliable, would come home and

542
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: feed the animals, things like that, right from the start,

543
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: there's concerns. So I suppose there's no Well, the police

544
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: can't do anything until someone brings it to their attention.

545
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, this is strange that the concern wasn't raised

546
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: earlier for whatever reasons. We probably don't know when it

547
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: was brought to the attention of the police. Do you

548
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: know what sort of response was done at the time?

549
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: Very lackl so was the information I was given. My

550
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: step dad turned around and said he'd walked into police

551
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: station at seven thirty in the morning. I initially assumed

552
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: that he'd gone in the next morning when he said

553
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: seven thirty in the morning. As I said, I didn't

554
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: find out till later that there was a week a

555
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,479
Speaker 2: week's gap, So I'd assumed that he'd gone in at

556
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: seven thirty Monday morning to why on police station and had,

557
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 2: in his words, had tried to report Lisel missing and

558
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: had basically been blown off. According to him, the police

559
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 2: were too busy watching the weather report or sunrise or

560
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: something that was on at the time. So apparently there

561
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: was just a complete lack of interest in taking the report,

562
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: a lack of interest as to where she was or

563
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: what she was doing or you know, and a lack

564
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 2: of concern. You know, I think from the information that

565
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: I have, they were essentially like, she's a grown woman,

566
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: you know, she could be anywhere. Yeah, the fact that

567
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: it was out of character for her didn't seem to

568
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: warrant concern for them as far as I'm aware.

569
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: There's some very simple inquiries that can be made when

570
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: someone is reported reported missing and access to the phone

571
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: bank bank records, that type of thing, and if someone's

572
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: phone has just stopped being used, it's fairly telling that

573
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: there potentially could be a problem. It's not it's not

574
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: a lay down mas air that something horrible's happened. The

575
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: phone might have broken, but it would be a concern

576
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: not meeting commitments, whether that being feeding the animals, turning

577
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: up for employment. Study or whatever, not using a bank account.

578
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: Will these things explored? They were.

579
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: I don't know the timeline as to how soon they

580
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 2: were explored. I don't know whether it was like within

581
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks or within a couple of months,

582
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: or I do remember being assified. Had any Facebook response

583
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: to the Facebook message that I had sent, which was

584
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: pretty soon after finding out that Lisa had gone missing.

585
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 2: I never ever got a response to that. I'd given

586
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: my number and I said, if you didn't, you know,

587
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: didn't want to contact me, contact anybody, get a message

588
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: to us. And we never heard anything. And then I

589
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: think I think it was at least six months into

590
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: the investigation that information started to trickle through that she

591
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: hadn't access to her bank accounts. Facebook, you know, wasn't

592
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: being used. There been you know, none of the day

593
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: to day detail, you know, life detail of bills and

594
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: utilities and you know payments and transactions that you know

595
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 2: everyone sort of does without thinking two seconds of it.

596
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: That leaves a trail.

597
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: It's very hard to go off the grid, yeah, back then,

598
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: back then, even more so today. But it's very hard

599
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: to go off the grid as a time war on,

600
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: like we're talking, yeah, seek months now, what was going

601
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: through your mind.

602
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: I just wanted to know where she was, if she

603
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: was okay, if she'd managed to go off the grid,

604
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: whatever her reasons were, that she was safe, that you know,

605
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: she had somewhere to stay, that she had something, you know,

606
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: I had the ability to look after herself. Even now,

607
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: I will still catch myself looking for her. I've had

608
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: a few double takes where I've you know, quickly turned

609
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: my head twice because I you know, think, oh, that

610
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: looks like you know her. There was a number of

611
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: times where, you know, you go on a bit of

612
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: a roller coaster where you you know, you hope that

613
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 2: she's alive, and you're like, yep, she's got to be alive.

614
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: And then there's other times where you're like, there's no

615
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: information she has an access bank account, there's nothing to

616
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: indicate that she is. You do lots of what I

617
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: call other crying, because you're just riding that roller coaster,

618
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: you know, from one extreme to the other, trying to

619
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: work out what's going on, and that desperation that you know,

620
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: against all odds, even though you know the reality of it.

621
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 2: And my poor husband, you know, I don't know how

622
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 2: he managed to keep it together for both of us,

623
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: because for the initials six to twelve months, I was

624
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 2: a pretty big mess, especially at home. It got to

625
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,240
Speaker 2: the point where I couldn't do the roller coaster ride anymore.

626
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 2: I just it wasn't possible. I'd come home back to

627
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: Tazzy sort of at the start of October, mid October,

628
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: and I was just like, from now on, she's alive

629
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: until I get any other anything otherwise to prove that

630
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: she's not.

631
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: That's the mindset.

632
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 2: That was the mindset I had to take for my

633
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 2: own sanity, yep, because I just I was just tearing

634
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 2: myself apart, you know, mentally, going from one extreme to

635
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: the other, and I just I couldn't do that to myself,

636
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: and I couldn't put my family through that.

637
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: I gerald then the way that you've just described that,

638
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: I've heard that from other family members of different different cases,

639
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: that really it is soul destroying. It rips you apart.

640
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: On one hand, you're thinking, you're thinking there is a

641
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 1: chance a miracle might happen, she might walk through the door.

642
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: Then you think, no, am I just am I kidding myself?

643
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,959
Speaker 1: So you've got all these mixed emotions that you're going

644
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: through You've got to get on with your life, and

645
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: it's just so difficult. So it sounds like you're lucky

646
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: that you had your husband there supporting you during that

647
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: period of time, but it's basically, how do you get

648
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: on with life when you love ones missing like that?

649
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 2: What else do you do? I can't sit in a

650
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: corner and rock you know, I've still got to go

651
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: to work. I've still got bills to pay, I've got

652
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: responsibilities to my family. As much as you want the

653
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: world to stop and to wait until they come home,

654
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 2: for me, at least, it wasn't an option. I still

655
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 2: had to get on and to some degree, being at work,

656
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: I hadn't told everyone what was happening. My bosses knew,

657
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: mostly because my husband actually had to come pick me

658
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: up at one point and that was it. But work

659
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 2: gave me some sort of normalcy where you know, I

660
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: wasn't thinking about Lisaul. I was dealing with somebody else's

661
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 2: issues and that was my focus for the day. And

662
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: then you know, I could go back home and the

663
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 2: worst thing about being at home would be was that

664
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: I'd get home and I'd be like, oh, I didn't

665
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 2: think about Lisa. Little for eight hours, and then I'd

666
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 2: feel guilty that I hadn't thought of her for eight hours.

667
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: But then you end up in a worse spot because

668
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: you feel guilty about not thinking of her when really

669
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 2: you're trying to get on with life, and there's nothing

670
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: wrong with that, but it all gets so muddled up

671
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 2: in your head and you end up with such a

672
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 2: sense of sense of guilt. All I did at least

673
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: that it just it just yeah, it ends as you said,

674
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 2: It ends up being sold.

675
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: Hearing what you're saying, and it's an emotional rollercoaster, and

676
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: that sense of guilt is how should I How can

677
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: I get on with my life? I don't know what's

678
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: happened to my sister. If I'm not going to fight for,

679
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: who's going to fight for? All these emotions can't come through.

680
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: So it is I describe it. I don't know if

681
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: it's the right way to describe it, but I think

682
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: it actually covers it's like a living hell when someone

683
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 1: goes missing, and I've seen it too often with families

684
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: and on investigations I've been involved in just looking for answers.

685
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 2: And that's all you want. You just want answers. You

686
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: might not like those answers. You don't have to like

687
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 2: those answers, but like any any person who's got a

688
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: missing person, you just want an answer of some sort,

689
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: you know, just to process. And as I said, you're

690
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 2: not you know, it doesn't have to be an answer

691
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: that you're going to want or like, and it not

692
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: always is, but it's an answer. It's something rather than nothing.

693
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: Then you know what you're dealing with. Yeah, you've got

694
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: to deal with it. It's something tangible that you understand.

695
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 1: The investigation into Liesel's disappearance. What was the progress of that?

696
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: When did you start to think something was happening on

697
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: that front?

698
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: It was probably when I heard that they had charged

699
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 2: the suspect with her murder, which was about six years

700
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: after she'd gone missing.

701
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: Had you been aware that the suspect had been identified

702
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: in this matter?

703
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 2: I got a phone call from my stepdad saying that

704
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 2: they had arrested him.

705
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: I knew he was person of interest.

706
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, a person of interest. I knew.

707
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,439
Speaker 1: I knew that because he How did you know that?

708
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: What filtered through to.

709
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: You about my stepdad had mentioned that the police had

710
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 2: been investigating him and then through media reports, Okay, the

711
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: police were not the most compared passionate people I've ever

712
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 2: come across at that point in time, and some of

713
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 2: the things that were said to us, and the way that,

714
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 2: at least when I had my contact with them, that

715
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 2: I was treated was pretty disgusting to be quite frank.

716
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: Was this prior to prior to this person being charged? Yes, yeah, okay,

717
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: tell me about that. We won't mention mention the names,

718
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: but just in a general sense, how it made you feel.

719
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: I basically felt like we were being treated as if

720
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 2: we were the ones that had done something wrong. I

721
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 2: at one point felt when there was a discussion between

722
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 2: a couple of the detectives and someone quite senior, we

723
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 2: were being told off like naughty children.

724
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: In what regardless, we got.

725
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: Told that we shouldn't have gone higher up, that we

726
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: weren't to bother the person with the concerns that we had,

727
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: that we should have gone to the person who were

728
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: having the meeting with. The whole point of going higher

729
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: up was because we were getting nothing from the people

730
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 2: that we were in contact with.

731
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: You know, when you're talking, it's just so people understand,

732
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: because we had a conversation a couple of days ago

733
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: about this that you were asking for information about the

734
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: investigation and speaking to certain police and the information wasn't

735
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: forthcoming and the response you thought was inadequate. So you

736
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: went then above the chain of command above that officer

737
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: and spoke to a senior officer and you got chastised

738
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 1: by the original office of her going above. Yeah, is

739
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: that the fair assessment?

740
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 2: Pretty much in a nutshell?

741
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think and I understood you explained it, and

742
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: I'm just we'll try and pick bits and pieces out

743
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: of it from the conversation we had before that you

744
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: want the details of the investigation, and it was basically

745
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: told you can't have details of the investigation, which you

746
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: seem like a reasonable person, then you can understand that

747
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: the integrity of investigation needs to come first. But it

748
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: was a manner in which you were told that you

749
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: took issue with.

750
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was the tone and it was the way

751
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 2: that you know, we were spoken to. If they hadn't

752
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 2: turned around and said, look, you know we are actively investigating.

753
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 2: There are certain things that we can't tell you because

754
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: you know we're prevented from doing that. But you know

755
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: you will find out at some point. We just can't

756
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 2: tell you right now. I would have gone Okay, fine,

757
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 2: I at least get the sense that you're working on

758
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 2: the case, that you're doing something to try and find

759
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 2: my sister. But you know, I, at least I don't know.

760
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 2: You know, I can't speak for my stepdad and my mum,

761
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: but I at least wasn't getting any information whatsoever apart

762
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: from what was being drip fed to me by my

763
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: stepdad at the time, which was on a you know,

764
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: what he felt I needed to know. And it wasn't

765
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 2: until I got involved with family and friends of Missing

766
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 2: Persons unit counselors and they were fantastic. I can't speak

767
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: of them highly enough. They went digging and got me

768
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 2: in contact with a social worker. This was well passed

769
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: after the person had been charged and I started being

770
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: able to find out information direct and you know, the

771
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 2: stuff that I hadn't been told was just phenomenal in

772
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 2: all honesty, and.

773
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: Look, I'll give a perspective from police, but will balance

774
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: that out as well then that there is sometimes that

775
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: you can't pass information onto people that potential witness in

776
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: a matter. I think most reasonable people understand that you

777
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: said what you would have accepted, and just reminded me

778
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: of time and time again. I've had that same conversation

779
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: with families of murdered victims where they're asking about the investigation,

780
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: and I say, and it was countless times that I

781
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: can't tell you now. The reason I can't tell you

782
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: now is I don't want to jeopardize the investigation. But

783
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 1: there will be some point in time when we can

784
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: sit down and I will go through absolutely everything and

785
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: answer all your questions. And that seemed to bring some

786
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: comfort to the people that were inquiring, and it gives

787
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: them the confidence that people are working on the investigation.

788
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: We start this chat and we're talking about compassionate humanity

789
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,959
Speaker 1: and empathy. Jesus carries a long way in this type

790
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: of situation, doesn't it.

791
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 2: It sure does. And you know, if someone had have

792
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: said what you've said, you know, to us that that

793
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 2: would have been fine. You know, I'm as you said,

794
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 2: you know reasonable, I understand that there's things that can't

795
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 2: be said, you don't. You know, the last thing that

796
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 2: any missing person family, if there's a person of interest

797
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 2: in the investigation, want to do, is compromise the investigation

798
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: or have it compromised if there's potentially you know, in

799
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 2: roads being made. The last thing you want to do

800
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: is muck that up. You know, would have been quite

801
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: happy to go Okay, great, no dramas, let us know

802
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 2: when you can just keep in touch, you know, even

803
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: if it's to say, look, I haven't got any new news,

804
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 2: but we're still going. It would have made me at

805
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: least feel hurt, and you know, I guess connected in

806
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: the way that someone was doing something if I even

807
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: if I couldn't do it myself because I'm not a

808
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: police officer. My ability lies in other areas. At least

809
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:06,479
Speaker 2: the people that could were.

810
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's important, and that would make it make a

811
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: difference difference for you, give you some comfort from an

812
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: emotional point of view, the fact that progress has been

813
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: made on the investigation, was it we've mixed emotions because

814
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: the investigation at this point in time had turned into

815
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: a murder investigation. Was it mixed emotions that this information

816
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: was forthcoming to you?

817
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember the day that I found out that

818
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: it had turned into a homicide investigation, and I was

819
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 2: driving in the car. I was about thirty seconds from home,

820
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 2: and I walked through the front door and I lost it.

821
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: I absolutely just burst into tears and lost it, and

822
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: my poor husband was like, what's wrong, Like, what's going on?

823
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 2: And I think it took me five minutes to get

824
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: out that it had changed from a missing person's investigation

825
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 2: to a homicide. And it's certainly up there with one

826
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: of the worst my life because any hope, majority of

827
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 2: hope that I had was pretty much quashed. There was

828
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 2: sort of not really any support offered. You know, I

829
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: didn't have anyone else to talk to apart from my

830
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 2: husband and you know, his parents, who you know have

831
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: been fantastic as well. And then and then.

832
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: How did you become aware? You said in the in

833
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: the car, was it that.

834
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:29,479
Speaker 2: I had a phone call? Yeah?

835
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: Right?

836
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: And it was just dumped on me. From memory, I

837
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: think it was my stepdad because he'd been hauled into

838
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 2: the police station to say that that's that's what it

839
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 2: was now becoming. And it was It was pretty devastating.

840
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 2: I didn't know how or why they had come to

841
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: that conclusion. I assumed that they must have found her,

842
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 2: and you know, it was like, oh God. And then

843
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: I don't know if there was a miscommunication or a

844
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 2: misunderstanding or I was then told no, it's not a

845
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 2: homicide investigation. It's gone back to a missing persons and

846
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, hang on a second, and then went

847
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 2: back to a homicide investigation. So I'm assuming there was

848
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: some sort of miscommunication between the police and my family,

849
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 2: but that was that was more of a rollercoat, that

850
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 2: wasn't just a rollercoaster ride, that was being dropped off

851
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 2: a cliff face. And after that, I was like, no,

852
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 2: I can't just accept that she's gone on the basis

853
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 2: of that. They've changed the investigations. So I was like,

854
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 2: until I see or hear a forensic evidence, I will

855
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: keep a small shred of hope alive. And that's basically

856
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 2: what got me out of it in the morning. For

857
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 2: a very long time.

858
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: Okay, I can see the emotion and hear the emotion

859
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: that I reliving that. I'm sorry we're talking about this

860
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: because it's clearly clearly upsetting the person, the suspect and

861
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 1: the person that was charged with Liesl's murder, James Church.

862
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: Did you know him? When did you become aware of

863
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: the name?

864
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 2: So my stepdad he'd mentioned that Lisa had been seeing him,

865
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 2: and then obviously you know with media reports when he

866
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 2: was arrested and you know, going through the court process,

867
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: I had seen him once and the only reason I

868
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: recognized him was because i'd seen his picture in the media,

869
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: you know, when he'd been arrested.

870
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,760
Speaker 1: When you said you've seen him once growing up or early, well.

871
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 2: This was after oh, this was before he'd been charged.

872
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 2: I was driving where my stepdad lives and happened to

873
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 2: see him from a memory. I didn't say anything, I

874
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 2: didn't speak to him. I literally drove past him and

875
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 2: that was it.

876
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 1: And what was his association with Lisel?

877
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: He was a farrier and that's how they met. He

878
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: ended up helping her with her horses, and she ended

879
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 2: up helping I think to some degree, you know, with

880
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 2: the horses that he had, or horses of friends of

881
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 2: his or something. I'm not quite strong the details, but

882
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 2: you know, the horse world is relatively small, so I

883
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 2: guess it was a matter of time before they ran

884
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 2: into each other.

885
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: And as far you knew at that time that did

886
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: you know they were in the relationship or having the

887
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: relationship prior to Losl's not prior to Lisel's disappearance, but

888
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: prior to James Church being charged.

889
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I knew that they'd been in some sort of relationship.

890
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 2: The parameters of that obviously I wasn't entirely clear about

891
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 2: but I did know that that had some sort of

892
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:49,879
Speaker 2: thing going I guess, but I didn't. I wasn't fully

893
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,760
Speaker 2: aware of just exactly what had been going on until

894
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 2: the trial.

895
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: Okay, when he was charged? How did you find out

896
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 1: that there's one thing that's a person of interest in it? Investigation?

897
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: Next step is if someone's been charged. How did you

898
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: find out that James Church had been charged?

899
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 2: My stepdad rang me and told me, I can't remember

900
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: where I was or what I was doing, but I

901
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: was like, oh, okay, and then jumped online and it

902
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 2: showed him being arrested and you know, being led into

903
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 2: the I think it was the police house, not the

904
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 2: footage that was there.

905
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: I could imagine a thousand questions going through your mind

906
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 1: at that stage.

907
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 2: The biggest thing for me that will never be answered

908
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 2: is why she trusted him. You know, she obviously trusted him,

909
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 2: And I will never ever understand how someone who is

910
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 2: so special apparently or you know, as he said, you know,

911
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: they had such a special relationship, you know, they were

912
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: more than best mates. How what or what would possess

913
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 2: you to think that treating someone like that is okay?

914
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: How does it get to that we in the conversation

915
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,720
Speaker 1: that we we had a couple of days back, you're saying,

916
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: have this just seemed so surreal to you because it's

917
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: not a world that you see glimpses of on TV.

918
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 1: You see it in the movies, you see this, but

919
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: here you are a person has been in charge with

920
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 1: the murder of your sister.

921
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 2: In some ways, there was relief. You know, I remember thinking, well,

922
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: they finally got someone. And my understanding of the process

923
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:37,240
Speaker 2: is that there has to be substantial evidence to charge

924
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 2: someone with a charge like that. You know, it's not

925
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 2: something or you know, you forged a signature, it's.

926
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: It's a pretty serious.

927
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 2: You know, it's probably one of the most serious things

928
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 2: that you can be charged with, and that you know,

929
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 2: police need to take the case to the DPP and

930
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,919
Speaker 2: you know, make a case, and you know, you say, look,

931
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 2: we have a fairly with you substantial conviction that we

932
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 2: will get this, you know through and you know, obviously

933
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: the DPAP is privy to a whole bunch of things,

934
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 2: and know, sub standard that needs to be met, and

935
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 2: you know, the chances of getting a conviction based on

936
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 2: the evidence. You know, there's all that sort of stuff.

937
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 2: So it's not something that's taken lightly, was my understanding.

938
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 2: So I thought, Okay, well, they've obviously got something, you know,

939
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 2: and again I was like, right, until I have forensics,

940
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 2: she's not gone. And so I was relieved in some

941
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 2: some ways that Okay, they've they've got something that, you know,

942
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 2: not changed, they're tuned, but they've progressed, I guess with

943
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 2: how they viewed this particular person. He's gone from a

944
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 2: person of interest too, you know, a suspect. And I

945
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 2: remember also feeling guilty that there was relief because you know,

946
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 2: you don't want to acknowledge that they're gone, because then

947
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: you know you're I guess the term survivors guild. You

948
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 2: know they're not here, but you are. And you've basically

949
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: gone on with your life for the last six years

950
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 2: because you've had to, you know, and all the things

951
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: that society you know, celebrates and whatnot has happened as well.

952
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 2: And then I remember thinking, I need, I need to

953
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 2: find out how they've gotten to this point, and I

954
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 2: got in touch with the solicitor who was in charge

955
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: of the case. I'd spoken to the social worker, and

956
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 2: I remember I got the phone call at work. It

957
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: was midshift, and I asked a number of questions, and

958
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 2: obviously they were constrained with what they could answer. I

959
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 2: actually found speaking to them a lot better than speaking

960
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: to the police, and I remember asking is their forensic evidence?

961
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 2: Like you know' that's my end point. And I remember

962
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 2: she was really lovely. She went very quiet and she

963
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 2: was like, I'm really sorry. We have no doubt that

964
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 2: she's dead. And she wasn't. She wasn't trying to be

965
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 2: horrible in the way that she said that, but I

966
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 2: think she wanted to make sure that there was clarification.

967
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 2: There was absolutely no confusion about their position. And I

968
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 2: was like, are you sure, and they said, yeah, we're sorry,

969
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,479
Speaker 2: but you know, we're convinced that she's no longer here.

970
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:27,240
Speaker 2: I remember thanking them, funnily enough, hanging up the phone,

971
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 2: walking out with tears praying down my face, and one

972
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 2: of the sane members on staff took one look at

973
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 2: me and went, what's wrong. And I remember saying, just

974
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 2: get one of the bosses, because they knew what was

975
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 2: going on. And I walked back into the locker room

976
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 2: and collapsed in front of my locker and sobbed. One

977
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 2: of my bosses came in because she knew what was

978
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 2: going on, and they called Matt. He had to come

979
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 2: and get me from work.

980
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: I obviously couldn't.

981
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 2: Finish the shift, and I from memory, I think I

982
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 2: took a couple of days off work after that I

983
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 2: was due and your leave as well, so I ended up,

984
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 2: I think all up having about three weeks off just

985
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: trying to process. Fortunately, for the latter part of the

986
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 2: time that I had off, we were actually out of

987
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,839
Speaker 2: the country. We're overseas, so I was able to get

988
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 2: out and not be at home and easily contactable, which

989
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 2: was a good thing in hindsight.

990
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:40,240
Speaker 1: Just like the emotional journey that you're on going through

991
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 1: the start with your sister missing, then not hearing anything,

992
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 1: then finally years down the track and we're talking six years,

993
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 1: aren't we.

994
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 2: Yeah he was charged in twenty eighteen.

995
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: Down the track, and then processing with that look, I think,

996
00:54:55,400 --> 00:55:00,959
Speaker 1: how about we take a break now, and yeah, apologize

997
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: for taking you through this, because we're obviously digging up

998
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 1: some raw emotions. But this is the impact, and I

999
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,760
Speaker 1: think it articulates very clearly what you've described, the impact

1000
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 1: that when loved one goes missing or is murdered that

1001
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: the ramifications just go right through and it's such a difficult,

1002
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 1: difficult thing to come to terms with and deal with

1003
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,879
Speaker 1: when we get back in the part two, let's talk

1004
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: about the trial, the highs and the lows of the

1005
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: trial because they are an emotional rollercoaster within themselves, but

1006
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: the dramatic twist at the end that no one saw

1007
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: coming and when Nana discupts options on how you might

1008
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: be able to get some answers and justice to find

1009
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,760
Speaker 1: out what's happened to your sister. So let's take a break.

1010
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: I think we all need to need a break because

1011
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: of pretty heavy, heavy topic, and we'll come back and

1012
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 1: cover those points in part two.

1013
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 2: Nice thanks Jim

1014
00:55:54,320 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: Cheers, then their food and told die mis