1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,720 Speaker 1: The scientific endeavor is one in which we try to 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: remain in conversation with reality, pair away our biases, et cetera, 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: and in this case, the critical reality to keep our 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: eyes on. The critical thing to remain in a relationship 5 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: with is the reality of real people's lives as we 6 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: treat them, after we treat them, and sometimes that gets 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: lost in the numbers in a paper or some public 8 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: announcement or some commercial deal or whatever. I think there's 9 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: so much promise in psychedelic therapies and if we're going 10 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: to figure this out, we're going to need to stay 11 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: very close to real patients and their real stories and 12 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: their real features. 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: Doctor Paul lick Nightski, Welcome to the podcast. 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: Thanks Paul. Nice to beerre there. 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what setting up the audio on this 16 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 2: is more tricky than setting. 17 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: Up Not quite, but yes, that was hard. 18 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: So me we met Oh Geez a couple of months 19 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: ago now when we both presented to the Young President's Organization, 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: and I was very excited to be presenting alongside you, and. 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 3: The stuff that you talked about was unbelievable. 22 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: So talk to our listeners about what you do and 23 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 2: importantly how you got there. 24 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks, Paul. I still can't quite believe what I 25 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: do for a day job. I set up Australia's first 26 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: clinical psychedelic lab in twenty twenty, not because I wanted 27 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: to set up a lab or help establish a field 28 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: in the country, but because I wanted to work in 29 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: the space and there wasn't anything going. And what we're 30 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: primarily doing at the Clinical Psychedelic Lab at Monash University 31 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: is running clinical trials using psychedelics with psychotherapy for a 32 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: range of different mental health condition But because we're a 33 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: front runner in the space, we've found ourselves needing to 34 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: be a bit more useful than that, at least kind 35 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: of broadening our scope, and we are now. We have 36 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: been involved in training and other education in the psychedelic space, 37 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: and we're now moving into a very formal process around 38 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: psychedelic education and training, and we've been involved in all 39 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: sorts in policy development. Obviously, Australia is a very rapidly 40 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: changing context in the psychedelic space. In fact, i'd say globally, 41 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: Australia has gone through more change in the psychedelic space 42 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: than any other country in the last few years. So 43 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: it's a very exciting dynamic, complex space to work in, 44 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: and I really feel very grateful to have work that 45 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: is both interesting and seems useful. 46 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 3: Mm. 47 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, look absolutely, and we will dig into just high 48 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: useful that ease, because seeing your presentation, I was like. 49 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 50 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 2: And I've been tell you, I've been following this space 51 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: for a number of years. And I'll tell you where 52 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: my interests started was way back in nineteen ninety six 53 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 2: when I started to do a master's degree in social 54 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: anthropology and the first subject that we did was shamanism, 55 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: and I got really interested in shamanism to the point 56 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: where I packed in my master's degree and went off 57 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: traveling and ended up in South America and had a 58 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: really interesting experience with an inca medicine woman named Dorda, 59 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 2: and I went and did a psychedelic journey with San 60 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 2: Pedro cactus with the active ingredients mescaline. But interestingly, I 61 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: was into it for exploring consciousness. But there were two 62 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: other people who were in that session, one who was 63 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: a drug addict and the other in alcoholic and they 64 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: had been through all sorts of treatments and they said 65 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: to me that this stuff that she was doing with 66 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 2: them was just light years ahead in terms of the 67 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,839 Speaker 2: impact that I actually had on them. And then I 68 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: started looking into the ayahuasca church in Brazil that had 69 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: like crazy remission rates for alcoholics and drug addicts. And 70 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 2: I have actually done a whole heap of shamanic journeys 71 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: in the Amazon jungle with ayahuasca, which is a pretty 72 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: potent hallucinogen. So that's where my interest was a personal interest, 73 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 2: and I've kind of kept an eye on this space 74 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 2: because I was like, why isn't this stuff being done 75 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: in mainstream? 76 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 3: So just give our. 77 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: Listeners a little bit of a history of this, because 78 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 2: there was some stuff in the nineteen sixties, wasn't there, 79 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: And then yeah, it got cibosched for quite a while. 80 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: Yeah. In fact, you know, many of us think of 81 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: this phase as the third wave of Western psychedelic science 82 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: and therapies. The first wave was in the late eighteen 83 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: hundreds early nineteen hundreds and very dappled history of Westerners 84 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: having interesting adventures in indigenous contexts and bringing back stories 85 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: and products and writing theses on these encounters. But a 86 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 1: far more productive phase kicked off in the nineteen fifties 87 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: and for close on two decades there was an uptick 88 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: in psychedelic research and practice. Now, a lot of this 89 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: work happened in that second wave prior to the prohibition 90 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: of drugs like lstan, psilocybin and MDMA, so they were 91 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: implemented in clinical practice alongside being tested in a lab. 92 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: It wasn't like you start in the lab and then 93 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: when it's proved up you moved to the clinic. It 94 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: was a very productive phase. I mean, we look back 95 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: on that phase now with mixed feelings. I think in 96 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: many respects, the clinical science of the day doesn't hold 97 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: up to the contemporary standards that we require when we 98 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: judge data, so the data is a little harder to 99 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: interpret in a modern context. But it was also very 100 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: productive and very experimental. ALST was the main drug being 101 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: trialed and tested for a range of different psychiatric and 102 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: addiction issues, principally alcohol use disorder, and there was a 103 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: whole sort of fascinating experiments from using you know, moderate 104 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: dose LSD with active psychotherapy which is called psycholytic psychotherapy, 105 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: something that has still not been retested in the modern era, 106 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: through to some rather unfortunate misadventures, for example trialing out 107 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: LSD for schizophrenic children, and you know, there was a 108 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: whole a whole host of experimental work done, and some 109 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: of it was great, some of it was fantastic. We 110 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: all estimated forty thousand doses of others to were given 111 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: in controlled settings, and there were multiple international conferences and 112 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: big you know, about a thousand research papers, and then 113 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: you know what's now the famous kind of war on 114 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: drugs kicked off led by Nixon's administration in the US, 115 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: but ratified through UN conventions and a set of international 116 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: treaties that really left only a very small handful of 117 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: countries around the world allowing psychedelic drugs to be used legally, 118 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: and the vast majority of the world banned them and 119 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: banned them in the most prohibitive way, you know, put 120 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: them alongside drugs like heroin and cracker caine and labeled 121 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: them as you know, as dangerous with high abuse potential 122 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: and so on. Now, there were many factors actually that 123 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: contributed to the demise of that second wave of psychedelic 124 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: experimentation in Western psychiatry. But it seems that and history 125 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: seems to bear this out, that the majority of that 126 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: was driven by a kind of propaganda campaign which was 127 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: predicated on a set of lies. If you are to 128 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: schedule a drug as a Schedule one substance in the US, 129 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: which is roughly equivalent to a Schedule nine in Australia, 130 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: then you have to show that that drug has a 131 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: high potential for abuse. That means it's highly addictive, and 132 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: you also have to show that it's got no known 133 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: medical value. And at the time that happened in ninety seventy, 134 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: there was already about two decades of research indicating exactly 135 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: the opposite. In fact, drugs like LSD and psilocybin, the 136 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: active ingredient in magic mushrooms, are anomalous in the context 137 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: of psychotropic agents. If you have a drug that produces 138 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: very strong psychoactive effects, typically there are whole set of 139 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: side effects as well, and you get to toxic doses 140 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: pretty quickly and so on. With drugs like LSD and psilocybin, 141 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: you get the most unbelievably hoblit and psychoactive effects with 142 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: negligible physiological harm. So quite anomalous. You know, even caffeine 143 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: can be more harmful. So yeah, fast forward to ninety 144 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: nine and a small group of brave researchers kicked off 145 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: what is now considered the third wave of psychedelic research, 146 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: sometimes a psycho renaissance, and that was a group of 147 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins who quietly kicked off an initial study. Interestingly, 148 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: it wasn't a psychiatric study. It was a study with 149 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: so called healthy volunteers, and they published that in two 150 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: thousand and six, and over that subsequent ten year period 151 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: or so, the beginnings of the field took shape. And 152 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: probably in the last just four or five years, we've 153 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: seen just a very clear exponential uptick in productivity and 154 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: commercial interest and general community awareness of psychedelics. A lot 155 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: of people who know about psychedelics found out about them 156 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: in the last few years, the majority of people, I 157 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 1: would say, And so, yeah, now we really are an 158 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: interesting phase right now. I would suggest we probably are 159 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: rounding out or coming down from the peak of what 160 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: some people call the hype cycle. There has been a 161 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: lot of hype around psychedelics and a lot of misinformation 162 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: about psychedelics, and we are starting to see the beginnings 163 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: of less impressive results than the earlier trials. Maybe some 164 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: negative reports here and there, and some criticism in the 165 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: field and so on, and I think that's natural to 166 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: be expected. That's healthy. My hope is that the field 167 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: you know, course correct to best practicing clinical work and 168 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: rigorous science, and we can avoid what comes after peak 169 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: hype in many of these models, which is, you know, 170 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: a trough of disillusionment. I hope we can avoid that 171 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: and kind of flatten that curve into sensible, rigorous, well 172 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: integrated clinical practice in the space. 173 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 2: So let's talk now about some of the stuff that 174 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 2: you're doing in the lab and in the clinic, because 175 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: you're doing some of the world first stuff and I 176 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: think you probably hinted at it there where you were 177 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,479 Speaker 2: talking about all this excitement and in some negative results. 178 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 2: Presumably getting a really rigorous intervention is really key, right, 179 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: an evidence based intervention that you can then replicate over 180 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: and over again to get really good data, rather than 181 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: having lots of different people doing lots of different things, 182 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: some just using psychedelics without psychotherapy, some using it with psychotherapy. 183 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 3: So to tell me the sort of stuff that. 184 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: You're doing and give our listeners just a bit of 185 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: an insight into some of the rigor that goes into 186 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: the planning of this sort of stuff. 187 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, fanksful. Before jumping into a little bit of a 188 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: picture of our lab admonish and what we're doing and 189 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: kind of what the next five years looks like in 190 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 1: our view, it's worth just touching on something you hinted 191 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: at there, which is what I think of is the 192 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: most damaging and pervasive misunderstanding or maybe misrepresentation in our field, 193 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: and that is that a lot of people still think 194 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: that most of this treatment is about a drug, or 195 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: even that it's all about a drug, when in reality, 196 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: in our experience, in our view and in the trials 197 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: around the world, when psychedelics work well, they work well 198 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 1: on account of augmenting psychotherapy, on account of facilitating a 199 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: psychotherapy process. Now in all trials so far that's a 200 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: formal psychotherapy program. Oftentimes you're receiving about four times as 201 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: many talk therapy sessions compared to drug sessions, and they 202 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: will sometimes be every week for three months, depends on 203 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: the trial. And I can tell you a bit about 204 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: our different trials, you know, even when whether that's kind 205 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,359 Speaker 1: of very extensive or more minimal, it is a psychotherapytic 206 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: process that gets facilitated with the aid of these drugs. 207 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: When it works well, and if you think about it, 208 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: I mean clearly, when the drug is in your system, 209 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: and the acute effects are at their peak. That experience 210 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: is driven by the drug. You've got a compound that 211 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: they've got a molecule that's crossed the blood brain barrier 212 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: and stocking receptors in your brain and causing an effect. Now, 213 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: for the days or sometimes weeks after your dosing session, 214 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: people will sometimes report what we call the after glow effect. 215 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: It might feel spontaneously different and maybe behave differently as well. 216 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: They might feel more emotionally open or mobile. They might 217 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: feel connected to their priorities, or decide to go for 218 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: a stroller and listen to music instead of just work 219 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: until dinner time or whatever might be. And some of 220 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: that may be also driven by some of the drug 221 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: effects or the kind of post drug reverberations in your 222 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: neural networks. As you know, it comes out of your system. 223 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: But with most of these drugs, the half life is 224 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: in the order of six or eight hours, and clearly 225 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: a week or two or three later, the drug is 226 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: out of your system. And if you're going to see 227 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: somebody's life transformed a year later, that is clearly not 228 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: on account of a drug still working in your brain. 229 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: The drug is gone. It facilitated an experience, it gave 230 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: an opportunity for some sort of transformation, and then if 231 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: it works, it's because some psychotherapeutic and maybe behavior change 232 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: process was triggered and it's a virtuous cycle of learning 233 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: and growth and development. 234 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 2: So and it signs to me with that description that 235 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: there's a bit of a combination of the drug inducing 236 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: massive neural plasticity and then the psychotherapy, which may have 237 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: an effect in and of itself, but then the psychotherapy 238 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 2: then kind of steering that neural plasticity to psychological flexibility or. 239 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 4: Just changing behavior changing goald. 240 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 2: Sense of meaning purpose that sort of stuff is that 241 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: is that kind of what's going on. 242 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: You know, that's one lens to look through at this, 243 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: and I think that sounds right to me. There's also perhaps, 244 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, other lenses, like more psychological or experiential psychodynamic 245 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: lenses to look at this through where people might have 246 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: a profound experience. The psychoic experiences are often rated as 247 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: one of the most profound of a person's life. I mean, 248 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: this is one of one of the amazing things about 249 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: my job because it's you know, today's Monday. It's just 250 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: another Monday for me. But we had an MDMA dosing 251 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: session today today might be you know, one of the 252 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: transformational or pivotal moments in that person's life that came 253 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: to our lab today, and it's. 254 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a there's published a long history, like 255 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 2: large thousand year old history of reported ecstatic experiences. 256 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: Right right, And so sometimes it's ecstatic and other times 257 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: it's you know, extremely painful. I mean, often we are 258 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: facilitating some of the most challenging experiences of people's lives. 259 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: But the value doesn't depend on whether you happen to 260 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: feel good or struggle. The value is in a completely 261 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: different kind of orientation to your life, or yourself or 262 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: your history. And for a lot of people that're getting 263 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: this kind of contact moment, like an unprecedented contact, usually 264 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: with at least the sources of their distress in their 265 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: life and maybe their pathology. But sometimes it's a connection 266 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: or a contact with their priorities or the people that matter, 267 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: or it is like a realignment. We often talk about 268 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: kind of compass setting in this work. Now, compass doesn't 269 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: get you to your destination, and that's what psychotherapy is for. Yeah, 270 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: So the psychotherapy to contain it does many things. I mean, 271 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: in the preparation phase before your first dosing day. It's 272 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: mostly kind of gearing you up for a safe and 273 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: productive journey. You know, we get the launch pad sorted, 274 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: we get the rocket facing in the right direction. There's 275 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: a whole lot of work to be done to ensure 276 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: that you have a very good chance of going the 277 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: distance and not fighting. And in reality, you know, every 278 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: psyche that journeys quite different. But the critical thing that 279 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: we need to take care of on that launch pad 280 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: before we launch is trust, because without trust we fight 281 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: these confronting experiences. In fact, psychedelics are in strange ways 282 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: showing people the kinds of experiences or perspectives that they've 283 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: spent a huge amount of time and effort trying to 284 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: avoid their whole lives, but from a bit of a 285 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: different angle, and there's a lot of chain lenge and 286 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: there's a lot of potential for distress unless we can 287 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: teach people the skills and the knowledge around how to 288 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: kind of trust and go and be open and go 289 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: for the right And if you can do that, then 290 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: who knows what will be shown to you. But it's 291 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: often unbelievably productive. People feel like they're in a waterfall 292 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 1: of psychotherapeutic material like this's just barely have they managed 293 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: to digest an insight or a priority, or a perspective 294 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: or a feeling, and the next one is falling on them, 295 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: and the next one again. And so the biggest challenge 296 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 1: we face, I mean, it's quite clear how we set 297 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: the launch pad up. That's actually you can prodigalize that, 298 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: and we can guarantee that all but guarantee that we 299 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: set that launch pad up. Well, the bigger challenge for 300 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: our field is that you stand under that psychedelic waterfall 301 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: with thymbols, little thimbles, and that's what you've got to 302 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: take into the rest of your life. And so one 303 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: of the tasks of the therapist and a whole protocol 304 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: is to is to turn those symbols into bigger buckets 305 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: and find ways in which those buckets can be refilled 306 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: without the drug. And what I'm talking about here is 307 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: the durability of effects. You know, we can get a 308 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: high rate of incredibly profound, useful psychedelic experience what people 309 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: will often call transformative experience, but there's often there's a 310 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: difference between these peak experiences and real transformation because the 311 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: challenge of the human condition and the challenge of mental 312 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: illness on top of that is monumental. It's so great. 313 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: We really are up against decades of habits and billions 314 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: of years of evolution, and so this is I come 315 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: back to this, this misunderstanding, and it's a kind of 316 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: magical thinking, this idea that a person who is deeply 317 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: distressed and has entrenched pathological behavior in there or thinking 318 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: can take a drug and that they are sorted forever 319 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: based on that way. 320 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 2: So you've made several references to the launch part, and 321 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 2: I remember when we were talking at the YPO gig 322 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 2: you said, psychedelics are a rocket ship for for psychotherapy. 323 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: If you're going to be in a rocket ship, you 324 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: want to bloody well steer this thing. And that's the 325 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: role of the psychotherapist, right, So, as you really pointed 326 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: out there, it's not the psychedelics by themselves, it's that combination. 327 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 3: With the therapy. 328 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: So tell us what are some of the things that 329 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 2: you are doing, some of the trials that you have 330 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: done now that we've got all of that context set 331 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 2: up for people, because I think it's really important, right. 332 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, So we've finished up a few studies and psyched 333 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: the trials in the lab already, and I'll tell you 334 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: a bit about those, and then we have a couple 335 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: ongoing and a couple that are coming down the line. 336 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: The first study we finished actually was a study where 337 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: we gave psilocyber with support to our therapists as part 338 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: of their training. And the basic question there was is 339 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: there a role for having your own psychedelic experience in 340 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: your competency as a psychedelic therapist. This has become a 341 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: theme in our lab and one of my students is 342 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: is leading this work currently where we're looking at the 343 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: broader topic of psychedelic therapeutic competencies and building a framework 344 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: based on prior psychotherapy frameworks to understand what is unique 345 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: and what is overemphasized in the psychedelic space, What does 346 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: it take to train a good clinician in the space 347 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: and to assess that their competency and so on, And 348 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: then in addition to that, is there a role for 349 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: having your own psychedelic experience in that competency? Does it 350 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: do something important? And you know the paper is forthcoming, 351 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: we'll publish that soon, but the punchline is a resounding yes, 352 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: it is. It seems to be incredibly useful, and it 353 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: also accords with common sense in the space that having 354 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: your own psychedelic experience does potentially improve your competency to 355 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: be a good psychoic therapist. Although I'd say a few things. 356 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: One is that is in the context of people who 357 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: already trained as clinicians and then who have already had 358 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: a psychedelic therapist specialist training, and then they're giving this 359 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: doicing exposure on top of that, and most people indicated, 360 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: and we assess both the therapist and then we assessed 361 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: all their patients who they treated afterwards. Honest people will 362 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: generally say yeah, but it's not necessarily the most important thing. 363 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: I think many people would agree you would rather have 364 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: a well trained, qualified psychotherapist than somebody who's not at 365 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: all trund to qualify but has had lots of psychedelic trips. 366 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: So we ran that study. We can also see that 367 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: a huge majority of patients prefer and sometimes demand that 368 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: their therapists have had psychedelic experience, and they'll generally make 369 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: appeals to the kind of common sense metaphors like what 370 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: you know, how could you have a tour guide who's 371 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: never been to that country, or something like that you 372 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: can make the case even more strongly for you know, 373 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: another planet. It's a tour guide on another plant. Yes, 374 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: so that's an exciting program of work, and we are 375 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: I'll talk to you soon about our planned Center of 376 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: Excellence that we are planning to launch next year. One 377 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: theme within the trials component of that center is to 378 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: further develop our therapist training competencies work including running an 379 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: expanded trial where we give therapists different psychedelic drugs and 380 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: we use our new developed tools to assess their changing 381 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: competencies over time. So that was exciting. There was a 382 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: world first approval to give psilocybin to therapists as part 383 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: of their training, and then that group of therapists went 384 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,239 Speaker 1: on to work on another world first trial that we 385 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: concluded early this year, which was Psilocybin Assistant Therapy for 386 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: severe Generalized Anxiety disorder, and that that was the first 387 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: psilocybin trial to look at a primary anxiety condition. We'd 388 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: seen in previous trials that psilocybin was useful in reducing 389 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: anxiety symptoms for people with physical illness, people that maybe 390 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,239 Speaker 1: were given a terminal diagnosis and were anxious because they 391 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: were told they were going to die, but no one 392 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: had ever looked at psilocyberin assistant therapy to treat you know, 393 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: chronic entrenched primary anxiety, the kind of anxiety that will 394 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: often have an onset in late adolescents and stick around 395 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: for the resculized jackage and being related to anything and everything. 396 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: That was a wonderful project, very challenging in many respects. 397 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: We treated seventy three participants in that study. Again, the 398 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: paper is forthcoming, but the headline there was the safest 399 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: psilocybin study in the modern era so far. The safety 400 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: on that study was better than any so far. And 401 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: that's measured in terms of what I called adverse events 402 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: and suicidality. And the clinical effect size, or the the 403 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: size of the benefit between the group that received psilocybin 404 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: and the group that received placebo different active placebo drug 405 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: was a very large effect size well size. So if 406 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: you if any of your listeners are nerdy and like 407 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: their coens D, it was a coen CD of just 408 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: under one wow, so coens D of about zero point 409 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: three two point five is considered good. Most of the 410 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: treatments that are approved and registered and you can get 411 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: prescribed have had trials that show CONESD of point three 412 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: two point five. If you get point eight, it's considered 413 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: big at large, And we were at about point at 414 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: about one. 415 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: So so let me give the listeners a little bit 416 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 2: of context here that antidepressants typically have a Cohen's day 417 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 2: of a bide depending on the on the one on 418 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 2: the particular drug, zero point three to zero point five. 419 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 2: So you know, zero point two marginally better than placebo. 420 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: Anything better than that is reasonably good. But when you're 421 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 2: talking about some of the side effects. You know, when 422 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: we take antidepressants, recent study of eighteen hundred users, right, 423 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 2: real worded people showed that more than sixty percent of 424 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 2: them were are sixty percent were having really really challenging 425 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 2: side effects. Right, So you're both in terms of your intervention, 426 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 2: both in terms of the effects sides. 427 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 3: And I know that was generalized anxiety disorder. 428 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 2: I'm comparing against depression, but I think you probably have 429 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 2: similar effects sizes for medications I'm guessing for anxiety disorder, 430 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 2: and because the medications a lot of them are antidepressants 431 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 2: for anxiety disorder, right, So you'll see so this completely 432 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 2: outperforming like but by. 433 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 3: Almost orders of latitude. 434 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 2: That's right, both in terms of the CFD and in 435 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 2: terms of the empower. 436 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: That's right, and so the critical question, I mean, there's 437 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: two big questions. One is do those benefits endure? You know, 438 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: what are those people looking like in six twelve months? 439 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: You know, or further down the track. We've now done 440 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: our six month follow ups and we can say that 441 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:33,479 Speaker 1: the benefit endured very well to six months. Wow, we 442 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: will do one and a half year, two and a 443 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: half year, three and a half. We will continue to 444 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: assess them. So that data is still coming in and 445 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 1: we have some ideas about you know, how to improve 446 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: dr ability through you know, low cost forms of integration 447 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: and support and so on. There are all kinds of 448 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 1: things that can be deployed. The next critical question is 449 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: can you replicate that? Can that be done you know 450 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: at a new clinic or a new site and so on? 451 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: And that's a complicated because this is psychedelics with therapy 452 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: and the type of therapy that is involved and the 453 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: type of therapists that have been involved are not just 454 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: run of the mill, and you know, not to disparage 455 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: it anyone, I mean, most therapists have good training and 456 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: attempt to do a great job but these folk have 457 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:27,360 Speaker 1: been kind of hand picked, as you know, incredibly excellent polician, psychiatrists, psychotherapist, psychologists. 458 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: They've all been trained in a very intense way, and 459 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: they have poured in a lot of care into this 460 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: work because it's experimental, because it's often a passion project, 461 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: because they are so kind of motivated to work in 462 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,959 Speaker 1: this way. And so that's part of why we have 463 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: this big focus on capacity development in our forthcoming center, 464 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: because we're wanting to understand what are the critical elements 465 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: of being a good psychedelic therapist, What are the critical 466 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: elements of good psychedelic therapy, How do we operationalize that, 467 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: how do we train that, how do we assess for 468 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: that It's not going to be a cookie cutter approach 469 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: and this treatment model, if it's going to work well, 470 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: if psycho lets fulfill their promise, then I don't believe 471 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: they will fulfill their promise by being, you know, a 472 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: drug therapy or a cookie cutter model or something that 473 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: we can just kind of run off the pipeline and 474 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: scale up in some extreme way. I think it will 475 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: depend on nuance and human factors and you know, the 476 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: wisdom and depth of the of the ecosystem around it. 477 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: If we're going to see unprecedented outcomes continue into the future, 478 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: I don't think it's this is this is the kind 479 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: of key challenge for the field now, because of course, 480 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: when something shows a signal, the next typical step is scale. 481 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: That's great, we've got just let's move it out. And 482 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: of course there's a possibility that the baby's thrown out 483 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: with the bathwater as you scale. And my big question, 484 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: you know, in the next five years, is how do 485 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: we responsibly without sacrificing you know, the impressive results, the 486 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: transformational experiences, the you know, the growing community of practitioners 487 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: in the space who are invested in high quality work. 488 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: It's not only about using psychedelics to facilitate change in 489 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: a patient's life. It's about seeing whether we can use 490 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: psychedelics to facilitate change in the mental health cases. 491 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: Well, I was going to say, I would presume that 492 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 2: you have one eye on the naysayers in the mental 493 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 2: health system who are looking for any excuse for this 494 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,719 Speaker 2: to feel and so I would imagine you're having to 495 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: step forward a lot more carefully than you would do 496 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 2: if this was just a brand new field with no 497 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 2: existing dinosaurs should we call it in the field, or 498 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 2: people with this interest against you. 499 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. I mean there's the old stigma, you 500 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: know that these are drugs and they make you crazy, 501 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: and you know. And then there's the news stigma, which 502 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: is about the evangelism of the field, and I understand, 503 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: I understand that concern, you know, and in a funny way, 504 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: you know, this is the This is the strange place 505 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: I work at this interface between stigma and hype. It's 506 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: right there, and both of them feed off each other. 507 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: And really the future depends on us striking a very 508 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: clear course through the middle of that with our eyes 509 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: on the future of our patients, the very real people 510 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: who depend on us, because that is I mean, the 511 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: whole project of science is all about remaining in conversation 512 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: with reality. You know, there's all kinds of endeavors that 513 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: that human beings engage in. The scientific endeavor is one 514 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: in which we try to remain in conversation with reality, 515 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: pair away our biases, et cetera, test it, to try 516 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: retest it, and in this case, the critical reality to 517 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: keep our eyes on. The critical thing to remain in 518 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: a relationship with is the reality of real people's lives 519 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: as we treat them, after we treat them, and sometimes 520 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: that gets lost in the numbers in a paper or 521 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: some public announcement or some commercial deal or whatever. I 522 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: think there's so much promise in psychedelic therapies, but I 523 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: think it's not a straightforward thing to do a good 524 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: job of it. And if we're going to figure this out, 525 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: we're going to need to stay very close to real 526 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: patients and their real stories and their real futures. And 527 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: I think, you know, yeah, there are may sayers out 528 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: there for sure, that's fine. You know. I think there's 529 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: a whole lot of diversity emerging in the space, and 530 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: I think a healthy ecosystem is a diverse one. I 531 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: think opposition and competition keeps you sharp. That's all. I 532 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: welcome it all. What I am concerned about are the 533 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: inherent biases that seem to be in our space that 534 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: can lead us away from remaining in this kind of 535 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: conversation with reality and getting good outcoms in the end, 536 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: and those biases are towards scale and toward profit. And 537 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: it's a it's an alliance between the regulators who have 538 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: built systems that regulate drugs and not therapy and commercial 539 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: ventures that can make more money out of products than 540 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: services and so on. 541 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that, just a little aside a minute, 542 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 2: and then we'll come back to the stuff. 543 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 3: That you're doing on a boat to do. Is there a. 544 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 4: Clear reason in your mind why the FDA quite recently 545 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 4: knocked back ketamine as a was it a treatment for 546 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 4: depression that they was just going through approval in the 547 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 4: FDA knocked at back? 548 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: Do you mean for PTSD? 549 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 3: Maybe maybe it was MDMA rather than KAM PTSD. 550 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: Ketymine in the form of supravatos kidamine was approved by 551 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: the FDA a few years back for depression. Although that's 552 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: you know, people argue about this, it's not really a 553 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: psychedelectric eatment in the way that it's delivered, and it's 554 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: certainly not with psychotherapy. But now MDMA assisted therapy got 555 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: knocked back in a recent application, and basically that whole 556 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: program of work was probably delayed by a year or two. 557 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: It's not to say that that train is derailed, it's 558 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: just probably delayed. And it's a particular program of work 559 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: headed up by MAPS, the Multi Disciplinary Assization for Psycholic Studies. 560 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: So of course there are many other companies and trials 561 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: around the world of different universities involved in MDMA and 562 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 1: other psychedelic work. That it's complex as to why that 563 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: got declined, and it's controversial. There are many different perspectives 564 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 1: on it. I don't really want to wagh too heavily 565 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,879 Speaker 1: in on it because I already don't have viewing under 566 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: the hood, both on the FDA and the MAP side. 567 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: But what I can say is, you know, MAPS are 568 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: an unusual organization. There are grass Roots Pharmaceutical Development Company, 569 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: which is kind of almost a contradiction into They started 570 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: in nineteen and six, you know, got funded by Rick Doblin, 571 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: and he put in this unbelievable long and valiant effort 572 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: to raise nearly two million dollars in philanthropy and to 573 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: basically build an organization initially a charity and then it 574 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: branched into having both a charity and a for profit 575 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: public benefit side. And while I know a lot of 576 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: the group of MAPS well, and I think there was 577 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: a lot of good work and a lot of good intentions, 578 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: and they focused on what many of us think of 579 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: as the priorities doing good clinical work and so on. 580 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: They probably didn't dot their eyes across their teas to 581 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 1: the degree that a big well healed pharmaceutical company does, 582 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 1: and so there were these kind of you know, there 583 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: was an accumulation of little anomalies. I've never had any 584 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: reason to suspect the integrity of their work, but technically 585 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: there was some question marks and they were asked to 586 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: get more data. 587 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 2: Okay, so I watch this based on that one. Okay, 588 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,399 Speaker 2: So back to what you guys are doing in the lab. 589 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 2: Are you just using at the minute salo cybin and 590 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 2: then what other studies you're doing nigh and what ones 591 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 2: are there in the future. 592 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: So currently we're in the final phases of recruiting for 593 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: two trials, and the first is MDMA Assistant Therapy for 594 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: post Traumatic Stress Disorder, specifically in the treatment of veterans, 595 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: military veterans and first responders. And that study is, yeah, 596 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: in its final stages of recruitment. We've treated a number 597 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: of people. There's a total of twenty four people that 598 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: we're recruiting for that study. So it's a smaller study, 599 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: although it is by far the largest MDMA for PTSD 600 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: studying in the country, and it's got a few innovations 601 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: to it. It's focused on PTSD acquired during adulthood in 602 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: those particular roles of being veteran or first respondent military 603 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: first responder, and we've also built the treatment to be 604 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: potentially more cost effective and more acceptable. One of the 605 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: key complaints that many trials and groups have received in 606 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: the space is that while the treatment is incredibly intense 607 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: and profound, the end of the whole treatment package comes 608 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: very suddenly, and because it's not a service, it's a 609 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: one sized footsalt, you know, clinical trial design people will 610 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: often feel like they've plumbed the depths of their psychees 611 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: and formed these unbelievable bonds with their therapists, and the 612 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: work is rarely unfolding. Maybe they're even destabilized. We have 613 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: this kind of post operative pain phenomenon as well anogously, 614 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: and then you know, maybe two weeks after the last 615 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: dosing day they say goodbye to their therapist. Right, it's 616 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: a big cliff edge. And so we've tried to build 617 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: that trial in a manner that doesn't have the cliff edge, 618 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: that holds them for quite a few weeks afterwards, a 619 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: couple more than a month afterwards, and also is a 620 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: kind of program that we think could be actually feasible 621 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: to just lift out of the lab and put in 622 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: a clinic for that kind of patient group, whereas PTSD 623 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 1: that's far more complex, that's typically related to early adverse 624 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: experiences and so on. It's generally less feasible to say well, 625 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 1: we've got a two dose, three month package and that's it. 626 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: Usually longer term care is required in those situations. 627 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: That makes perfect. 628 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, so that trial is ongoing, and then we 629 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: have another trial. We're a site on a multi side 630 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: trial that's sponsored by Beckley Cytek in the UK, and 631 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:49,280 Speaker 1: that trial uses FIVEO DMT with psychotherapy in the treatment 632 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: of depression. And so for listener who aren't we're a 633 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 1: five meo DMT. It's derived from the poison of a 634 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: sonora and desert hoad. Yeah, yeah, and it probably doesn't 635 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: have a very long indigenous history of use. Probably was 636 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: discovered quite recently. Maybe even the uses were in the 637 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: seventies when somebody thought to squeeze the squeeze the venom 638 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 1: out of the gland and smoke it in a hot pipe. 639 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,839 Speaker 1: The creative innovation of our species. 640 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 3: We use this and is that is that different part too? 641 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,720 Speaker 3: Regular d MT and its chemical. 642 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 1: Compositions on very slightly different in its molecular form or structure, 643 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: but its psychoactive effects are actually very different in some 644 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: ways at the opposite end of the psychedelic spectrum. So 645 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: the d MT that you're referring to, which is called 646 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: n N d m T and DMT stands for dimethyl 647 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,240 Speaker 1: tryptomy n N d m T, is a very rapid 648 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:55,760 Speaker 1: onset and very intense and very hallucinogenic drug. It takes 649 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: people into what they'll often report as other realms, where 650 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 1: they'll often encounter other beings or agents, and they'll often 651 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: come back with a sense that those agents or that 652 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 1: space has its own independent reality of my experience, Like 653 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: more like I kind of traveled there through a porthal 654 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: of DMPT and discovered another place rather than that was 655 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: my mind. 656 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 2: Keven, it's the active ingredient in Iowaska, I can attest 657 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 2: that experience. Yeah, I was just wondering if that was 658 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 2: a difference. Yeah, because yeah, it's so. 659 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:35,359 Speaker 1: So fived from the TOAD is hardly hallucinogenic. It's more 660 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,479 Speaker 1: like white light and egodith. It's very intense. It's also 661 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: rapid onset, and it's less clear at this point how 662 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: it will work and how to work with it with 663 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: psychotherapy compared to psilocybin and MDMA, we really do know 664 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: a lot about how to work well with psilocybin and MDMA. 665 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: We're still, you know, working many things out, but the 666 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 1: basics of the fundamentals are very clear. We understand and 667 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: it works. We know why it worked. In general with 668 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,240 Speaker 1: five or d MT, it's so fast and so radically 669 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 1: different that it's quite hard to build bridges from here 670 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: to there, and it's it's just earlier in its stage 671 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: of development in terms of understanding best practice and also 672 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: whether it's going to work. So those two trials are 673 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,839 Speaker 1: ongoing in the lab, and anybody who is interested can 674 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: go to monash dot edu forward slash Psychedelics and there 675 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,760 Speaker 1: you'll find a page for participants and there's a little 676 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: email address. You just email that to find out more. 677 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: And we'll only be recruiting on those two projects for 678 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: the next month or two until we reach out quotas. 679 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 2: So yes, and sorry, just remind me again, the five 680 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 2: or d MT is for depression. 681 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: Depression, okay, and particularly it's for depression that hasn't responded 682 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: to prior therapies. What's sometimes referred to as treatment resistance 683 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: treatment recession. 684 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, cool, And and I was going to ah, 685 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 2: and just on that what And you may have just 686 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 2: answered the question by the study that you're doing, But 687 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 2: what in your mind are the psychedelics with the greatest 688 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 2: potential for treating depression. 689 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. I My sense is that psilocybin, which has got 690 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: the most evidence to date in the treatment of depression, 691 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: is you know, clearly the front runner. It makes a 692 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: lot of sense for why it's useful for depression. We 693 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,279 Speaker 1: know how to work with psychotherapy. Again, I think there 694 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: are more questions around what does best practice look like 695 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 1: and how do we get durable outcomes and all of that, 696 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: But certainly the best evidence we have so far is 697 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 1: for psilocybin in depression. There is you know, and then 698 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: MDMA is the best evidence we have for PTSD is 699 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: for mdmaassystem therapy. And then there are a whole lot 700 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 1: of ideas out there that haven't yet been tested. I'm 701 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 1: quite keen to do some of this work in the 702 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: near future in combining an MDMA or an MDMA like 703 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 1: drug with psilocybin or another classical psychedelic type drug over 704 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: the course of treatment. Not necessarily in the same dosing day, 705 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 1: although that's that's of interest too, But more over the 706 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 1: course of the treatment span. MDMA is not really a 707 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,800 Speaker 1: classic psychedelic. It's what's sometimes called an mpathogen. It massively 708 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: increases your tolerance for distress and allows you to feel 709 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: incredibly comfortable, you know, comfortable to the degree that you 710 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: recognize that you and I and everybody are pretty much 711 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: a bit anxious all the time at the very least. Yeah, 712 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,800 Speaker 1: So this profound comfort can set in, and that allows 713 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: you to explore your mind or your history, or your 714 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: life or your priorities in a far less constrained way 715 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,399 Speaker 1: and in a way that feels more sober, or more 716 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,359 Speaker 1: broad or more flexible. I mean this is Psilocybin and 717 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: MDMA do quite different things, but both of them, I 718 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 1: think open up. Huxley is reducing valve, if you like. 719 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,360 Speaker 1: By by analogy, Huxley al. Huxley refer to this reducing 720 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: valve which constrained our perception and our thinking and our 721 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: behavior towards our survival prerogatives. And you know, my sense 722 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: is that reducing valve is tightened through anxiety and MDMA's 723 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: path to releasing that or loosing that valve is through 724 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 1: allowing people to feel incredibly comfortable. MDMA could be very 725 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: useful in kind of commencing a treatment journey where people 726 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: can not only feel comfortable, but feel a lot of 727 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,279 Speaker 1: compassion for others and for themselves and just have the 728 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: sense of safety that I'm able to start exploring the 729 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,240 Speaker 1: things that are under the surface or that I've avoided. 730 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 1: And then psilocybin, you know, could be a fantastic next 731 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 1: session that allows people to have often far more profound, 732 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: dramatic shifts in their perspective or you know, visionary kind 733 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: of lessons that that system in their lives in difficult 734 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 1: to predict ways. And then md may you know again, 735 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: may it may be a good way to kind of 736 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: round things out. So there's all these ideas about how 737 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: we combine these drugs in in the future, and I think, 738 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: I think the future of psychotic therapy is is a 739 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 1: far more diverse thing than the than the models of 740 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,360 Speaker 1: care that we see today at the trials. 741 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 3: Mm hm. There Wow. 742 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 2: So that that leans me to think about the next 743 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 2: the next question I have that just popped into my head. 744 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 3: I read a research paper recently. I only only spared 745 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:41,360 Speaker 3: read and I've got to go back. 746 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,719 Speaker 2: To it where it was shown that in depression there 747 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 2: were were different functional brand networks that were amplified. So 748 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 2: are you doing or do you have plans to do 749 00:45:55,360 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 2: functional MRI scans of people pre and post treatment to 750 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 2: see if there are any specific areas of the brain 751 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,360 Speaker 2: that are changing in terms of activity. 752 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: We made that in the future. We haven't done it 753 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: yet in our lab, although many of our colleagues around 754 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: the world have done these kinds of brain scanning studies 755 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 1: for sure, and it's interesting to note and we've seen, 756 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: you know, some consistent signals. For example, with psilocybin dosing 757 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,680 Speaker 1: you refer to hyperactive regions in depression, and we've seen 758 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: some of those typical hyperactive regions in depression down regulated 759 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: or go more quiet under psilocybin. You know, the two 760 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 1: most common or consistent patterns with the neuroimaging studies with 761 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,680 Speaker 1: psilocybin are that psilocybin and LSD. There's been some LSD 762 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:48,080 Speaker 1: studies as well with imaging. These drugs cause what's called 763 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 1: your default mode network to get quiet. And this default 764 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,680 Speaker 1: mode network is kind of your brain's idle mode. It's 765 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: as it says in the name, it's the default activity 766 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: of your brain. And what a typically instantiates our thoughts 767 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,399 Speaker 1: about yourself and how things relate to yourself, thoughts about 768 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,120 Speaker 1: the future, thoughts about the past is called mental time travel, 769 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,000 Speaker 1: abstracted thinking, and so on. And if you think about that, 770 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: if you actually think a lot about the past and 771 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: the future and yourself, it's actually a recipe to get depressed, 772 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,279 Speaker 1: even if you weren't to start with. And so that 773 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,720 Speaker 1: goes down, and it quietens down and through a process 774 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,920 Speaker 1: of disinhibition, other areas light up. Another common pattern in 775 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: psilocybin imaging work is that parts of the brain that 776 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:40,480 Speaker 1: are typically not quote unquote in conversation get in conversation. 777 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: So what the majority of the nerve cells or the 778 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: neurons in your brain are what are called inhibitory neurons. 779 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 1: They dampen down other neurons. And that's a good thing 780 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,920 Speaker 1: because our brains need to be highly specific or specialized 781 00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,919 Speaker 1: in their tasks that they're achieving. A lot of people 782 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,600 Speaker 1: will say, you know what, shame you only use whatever 783 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 1: ten percent of your brain wouldn't be great. If you 784 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,719 Speaker 1: could use one hundred percent, it would be chaos. If 785 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,920 Speaker 1: you use it would be you'd be seeing everything, hearing everything, 786 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,080 Speaker 1: and doing everything at the same time. So the thing is, 787 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,719 Speaker 1: when you activate a certain network in your brain, part 788 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,560 Speaker 1: of what it's doing is is inhibiting other networks. So 789 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: it can be specific, it can do that job, it 790 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,680 Speaker 1: can think that thought. And so we have quite distant 791 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,600 Speaker 1: nodes in the brain, or hub areas in the brain 792 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 1: that are what are called anti correlated. When one lights up, 793 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: the other one gets dampened, and vice versa. They kind 794 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 1: of are in competition with one another, and under psychedelics 795 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:44,600 Speaker 1: they light up together. And so this does a couple 796 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,080 Speaker 1: of things. One is it makes you less functional, like 797 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,160 Speaker 1: it's hard to drive a car or have a conversation. 798 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,839 Speaker 1: And the other thing it does is it allows you 799 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 1: to join distant dots, or to have a feeling about 800 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 1: a thought when previously was just an abstract the thought, 801 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 1: or to just connect things in quite different ways. And 802 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,919 Speaker 1: so that might be the neurobiological correlate of the very 803 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,640 Speaker 1: new and deeply felt perspective that psychedelics turn to con for. 804 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,359 Speaker 1: But in you know, I guess what I would say is, 805 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,520 Speaker 1: while I'm interested in the neurobiology, this I would say 806 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:22,040 Speaker 1: that we are getting far more granular in understanding how 807 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,200 Speaker 1: psychedelics work and how to do a better job of 808 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:30,279 Speaker 1: it through what's called phenomenological inquiry, asking people about the 809 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,839 Speaker 1: nature of the experience. Yeah, because these experiences are so 810 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: complex and profound, and my guess is that we are 811 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,359 Speaker 1: a very long way from the neural correlates of what 812 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 1: matters under psychololis. Hmm. 813 00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can say why that is the priority, and 814 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,719 Speaker 2: that they're looking at the networks. Is the icing on 815 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 2: the key once sorted everything out, and how it actually works. 816 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,920 Speaker 2: A couple of comments actually on the default network that 817 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,319 Speaker 2: the Dalai la has for years run this thing called 818 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 2: the Mind and Life Conference, wherea's a bunch of neuroscientists 819 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,520 Speaker 2: and Tibetan monks who get together. And when Richard Davidson, 820 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,680 Speaker 2: who was one of the first researchers to talk about 821 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 2: the neuroscience of meditation, when they explain to the Dalai 822 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,840 Speaker 2: Lama the default mode network, he said to them, ah, 823 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,840 Speaker 2: you mean monkey yabba yaba, yaba yaba. 824 00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,600 Speaker 3: And it strikes me that that. 825 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 2: Increased activity in the default mode network. You mentioned about 826 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,440 Speaker 2: thinking about the past, thinking about the future in Japanese psychology. 827 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,600 Speaker 3: They say it's about the. 828 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,600 Speaker 2: Flashlight of your attention, and that people get in trouble 829 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,279 Speaker 2: when they shine the flashlight of their attention in their 830 00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,640 Speaker 2: own heads for too long. Interesting, which is kind of 831 00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:54,520 Speaker 2: that nice analogy to that overactive and default mode network. 832 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,319 Speaker 3: So, men, I am aware of time. I'd love this 833 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,399 Speaker 3: to go on for hours of really, but what are 834 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 3: what are some of the next steps for your group? 835 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:07,239 Speaker 1: Yeah? Thanks, Paul. So I am most focused on and 836 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:12,799 Speaker 1: most energized by our planned Center of Excellence that we're 837 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,200 Speaker 1: intending to launch early next year. The reason for that 838 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,760 Speaker 1: is that over the last four years or five years, 839 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:25,360 Speaker 1: we have not only seen the promise of psychedelic therapies, 840 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: we've seen all the kind of complex factors that need 841 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:36,239 Speaker 1: to be coordinated for that promise to be fulfilled. And 842 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,720 Speaker 1: in many respects, my view is that if we don't 843 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:45,520 Speaker 1: achieve a set of key outcomes over the next few years, 844 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,560 Speaker 1: that promises in peril. And so the center is attempting 845 00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:54,400 Speaker 1: to move beyond one trial, one question, one project, or 846 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,840 Speaker 1: one course at a university, et cetera, into a more 847 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:03,320 Speaker 1: coordinated venture with interlinked parts. And there are three interlink parts, 848 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: but then there's multiple parts beneath those. The three parts 849 00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,480 Speaker 1: are innovative trials, and we'll be doing a number of 850 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,319 Speaker 1: world first studies that I'm very excited about. And it's 851 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:18,839 Speaker 1: the kind of studies that are either not commercially obvious 852 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:23,440 Speaker 1: to an industry funder and maybe too early or complex 853 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:27,080 Speaker 1: for government agency to fund, but nonetheless are the kinds 854 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,520 Speaker 1: of trials that have a high probability of success and 855 00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:33,839 Speaker 1: high impact if they do. And so that is the 856 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,080 Speaker 1: perfect remit for philanthropy. And so this center will commence 857 00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:41,360 Speaker 1: with a philanthropic call, and anyone who's interested in finding 858 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,040 Speaker 1: out more can reach out to me through our website. 859 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:45,799 Speaker 1: I'll tell you a little bit about some of these 860 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 1: studies that I'm so excited to kick off. In addition 861 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,640 Speaker 1: to that pillar, if you like, we will have another pillar, 862 00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,000 Speaker 1: which is around education and training. We've run a number 863 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:57,719 Speaker 1: of trainings around the country. We've trained quite a few 864 00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,279 Speaker 1: groups that are doing this work around Australia with a 865 00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,600 Speaker 1: lot of assistance from international leaders in the space, and 866 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,440 Speaker 1: we will continue to run various training programs. We've just 867 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:13,840 Speaker 1: last week got approval to commence our psychedelic education program 868 00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,560 Speaker 1: that's monishor credited, which is very exciting. So we commence 869 00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,120 Speaker 1: it with four courses, two undergrad and two postgrade courses 870 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,120 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five, and they will build from there 871 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:28,000 Speaker 1: into proper or proper is the wrong word, into substantial 872 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:33,400 Speaker 1: psychedelic therapists and prescriber trainings that have full university endorsement, 873 00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:39,520 Speaker 1: but they are aligned to the research and best practice 874 00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:41,880 Speaker 1: in the space. And then there's a third aspect to 875 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,360 Speaker 1: this center, which is around immediate impact and real world 876 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:52,440 Speaker 1: impact at scale. That includes everything from standards and frameworks 877 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:58,400 Speaker 1: through to health economics and working up the right kinds 878 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,120 Speaker 1: of data and the right kinds of relationships that can 879 00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:05,880 Speaker 1: allow for far greater access as the different programs of 880 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,839 Speaker 1: work show themselves to be safe and effective, so you know, 881 00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,680 Speaker 1: we might discover that, for example, psilocybin and as system 882 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,200 Speaker 1: therapy is indeed safe and effective for depression. But if 883 00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,239 Speaker 1: it costs thirty thousand dollars for a standard course of 884 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:26,080 Speaker 1: psilocybin and system therapy and no one in the insurance 885 00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,440 Speaker 1: sector or government will fund it, then it's going to 886 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,440 Speaker 1: remain niche and inaccessible, and that's a problem. So we 887 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:38,239 Speaker 1: are really focused on access and affordability. And if we 888 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,120 Speaker 1: can show that the promise so psyechyalst can be fulfilled, 889 00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,680 Speaker 1: if we can get the durable outcomes, the high rates 890 00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:47,520 Speaker 1: of remission in the long term, then it will save 891 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 1: the payer money, whoever the payer is. And in the 892 00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,040 Speaker 1: case of reimburses, they will want to reimburse it. So 893 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,080 Speaker 1: that is a critical step. Yeah, And so just a 894 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:02,839 Speaker 1: final peace on that center, which is to say, the 895 00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,480 Speaker 1: idea with having these multiple interlinked parts is that what 896 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,480 Speaker 1: we can do in a center like that is greater 897 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,399 Speaker 1: than the sum of its parts. It all feeds off 898 00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,120 Speaker 1: each other, and it all informs each other in terms 899 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,319 Speaker 1: of efficiencies, in terms of knowledge and translation and so on. 900 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,680 Speaker 1: It'll be multi institutional, have a whole set of international 901 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:29,840 Speaker 1: stakeholders and national stakeholders, and the express mission is to 902 00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:34,720 Speaker 1: add value using psychedelic therapies in the mental health space 903 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:40,360 Speaker 1: without you know, the biases and the limitations of industry 904 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,120 Speaker 1: or government or university or whatever it is. We're keeping 905 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:48,279 Speaker 1: that patient clearly in view. That is the primary thing 906 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:52,280 Speaker 1: we're focused on. And so I'll give you an example 907 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,200 Speaker 1: of one of our innovative trials that will be an 908 00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,400 Speaker 1: initial flagship trial that will kick off early on. Just 909 00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,120 Speaker 1: as an example of many, it's a study that is 910 00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:09,120 Speaker 1: using MDMA assistant therapy to treat co parents with high 911 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:12,520 Speaker 1: levels of conflict. Oh wow, so this is not a 912 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,440 Speaker 1: psychiatric study. We're not treating a mental health disorder. In fact, 913 00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,359 Speaker 1: because you cannot diagnose a relationship, you cannot get an 914 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:24,279 Speaker 1: industry sponsor to fund a trial like this because the 915 00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:27,439 Speaker 1: regulator doesn't know how to regulate a drug for a relationship. 916 00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:30,239 Speaker 1: But we can. We can do it through philanthropy. We 917 00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,360 Speaker 1: can actually get it to market if you like. And 918 00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,720 Speaker 1: the idea here is that this is one for the children. 919 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:37,839 Speaker 2: I mean, it's a bite to see you do you 920 00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,440 Speaker 2: just do you just get me goosebumps on that, because 921 00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:45,680 Speaker 2: if you can help with relationships. You know, what we 922 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,960 Speaker 2: know is someone of as you well know, right, But 923 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,319 Speaker 2: one of the biggest drivers of per mental health is 924 00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:54,560 Speaker 2: coming from a broken totally. 925 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:56,759 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the people argue about this, but 926 00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,000 Speaker 1: I would say, and it looks like the evidence really 927 00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:06,880 Speaker 1: suggests that the single biggest predictor of psychopathology and addiction 928 00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:12,520 Speaker 1: is early adverse experiences. You know, and that's often in 929 00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,000 Speaker 1: the home, but being exposed to big T trauma and 930 00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:20,240 Speaker 1: little T trauma, little T traumas behind every fourth Australian 931 00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:24,880 Speaker 1: suburban door what are considered to be problematic high levels 932 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,240 Speaker 1: of conflict. It is a problem that's hidden in plain sight. 933 00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:32,560 Speaker 1: And really like the idea here is we are dealing 934 00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:35,920 Speaker 1: in the mental health space in a reactive way. We're 935 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:41,960 Speaker 1: dealing with the effects of early traumatic causes and what 936 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,960 Speaker 1: we need to do is deal with the causes. So 937 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:46,240 Speaker 1: absolutely so. 938 00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,920 Speaker 2: And add to that lesmeit Eddies is one of the 939 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,360 Speaker 2: biggest predictors of PTSD in the military being ex military. 940 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:57,560 Speaker 2: Is that early life stress and drugs are alcohol in 941 00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,760 Speaker 2: one of the parents. Right, answer yes to those two 942 00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,280 Speaker 2: qui Uessians, and you are very likely to get a 943 00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:07,240 Speaker 2: patasting here to comeback. This has been unbelievable. Look, I 944 00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,960 Speaker 2: have a brilliant job that I absolutely love. You're one 945 00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:13,160 Speaker 2: of the few people who has a job that I'm 946 00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:14,080 Speaker 2: a bit jealous of. 947 00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,680 Speaker 3: I've got to tell you you are a modern. 948 00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:23,920 Speaker 2: Day explorer because this is for me, it's something that 949 00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:28,560 Speaker 2: really has to be explored and it's very very important work. 950 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:32,120 Speaker 2: So may I tip my hat to you. And also 951 00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,720 Speaker 2: the rigorous way that you're actually going about this and 952 00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,960 Speaker 2: the fact that everything is about patient centered. I think 953 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,680 Speaker 2: it's bloody awesome and it's a credit to you and 954 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,920 Speaker 2: your team, So keep doing your awesome stuff. Now, just 955 00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,680 Speaker 2: tell us where can people go to find out more 956 00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,919 Speaker 2: about you and your work and importantly if they want 957 00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:58,280 Speaker 2: to also contribute philanthropically. I know from both an individual 958 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,840 Speaker 2: listener perspective, but there's also people who listen to this 959 00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,360 Speaker 2: podcast are involved in health insurance and life insurance and 960 00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,400 Speaker 2: I think that they are people are our organizations that 961 00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 2: should be looking at funding this. So where can people 962 00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:16,040 Speaker 2: go to find out more and also to support. 963 00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:17,480 Speaker 3: What is a very necessary colture. 964 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,840 Speaker 1: Thanks Paul, really appreciate the support and your kind words. Yeah, 965 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,280 Speaker 1: and just to say I feel incredibly grateful to have 966 00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:26,720 Speaker 1: the work I do have, and a big shout out 967 00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,479 Speaker 1: to my team. It's not me. There's forty of us 968 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:33,080 Speaker 1: in our group, and these are tremendous human beings who 969 00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,360 Speaker 1: are amazing on the tools and have got such bright 970 00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,080 Speaker 1: minds and such good hearts, and this work it takes 971 00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,160 Speaker 1: a village, so it's important to just acknowledge that there's 972 00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,600 Speaker 1: a big team of us as well. To find out more. 973 00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:50,600 Speaker 1: Monash Dot Edu Forward slash Psychedelics and by all means, 974 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,040 Speaker 1: if anybody is interested in finding out more about our 975 00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,640 Speaker 1: planned center of excellence and maybe has an interest in 976 00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,520 Speaker 1: understanding what we're trying to achieve and so on, please 977 00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,040 Speaker 1: write to me me through that website and we can 978 01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:05,320 Speaker 1: arrange a coal and maybe opposite, we've got a wonderful 979 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,720 Speaker 1: lab in in Victoria. 980 01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:12,439 Speaker 2: Awesome man, Thank you, great, thank you, Paul Jess appreciate it.