1 00:00:09,050 --> 00:00:12,110 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm 2 00:00:12,150 --> 00:00:14,970 Speaker 1: James Kirby, the wealth editor at The Australian and welcome 3 00:00:15,030 --> 00:00:17,829 Speaker 1: aboard everybody. Look, one of the things I've tried to 4 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:19,669 Speaker 1: do on the show is to give you a diverse 5 00:00:20,010 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: range of views on the matters we cover. I try 6 00:00:24,210 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: to range beyond what you might call the usual suspects. 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,690 Speaker 1: which you get a lot in financial podcasts, understandably enough. 8 00:00:31,090 --> 00:00:34,010 Speaker 1: So my guest today is one of the youngest I've 9 00:00:34,050 --> 00:00:38,190 Speaker 1: had on the show. He is 24. Very interesting guest, 10 00:00:38,229 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: as you can imagine. Taj Pabari. He's written a book 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: called Young, Dumb and Financially Independent. And I talked to 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: him before the show and we ran through some of 13 00:00:48,300 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: the things we might talk about. And I made the 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,190 Speaker 1: point to him that I'm going to start with a 15 00:00:53,210 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: difficult question because I did a book, a general book. 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: In fact, it was the original edition of Investment for Dummies, 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,220 Speaker 1: which was, they were a big brand at the time, 18 00:01:05,260 --> 00:01:06,830 Speaker 1: still a big brand, I suppose. And it was an 19 00:01:07,550 --> 00:01:10,509 Speaker 1: encyclopedic introduction to all things finance. 20 00:01:10,930 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 2: But I was.... 21 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,860 Speaker 1: I don't know. Let me think. 31, 32, 33, 34, maybe. 22 00:01:17,459 --> 00:01:19,860 Speaker 1: So I was about 10 years older than Taj. And 23 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:21,740 Speaker 1: why I wanted to bring that up is because I 24 00:01:21,780 --> 00:01:25,830 Speaker 1: will say to you, Taj Bapari, what can a 24-year-old 25 00:01:25,890 --> 00:01:30,390 Speaker 1: tell our audience about investing and finance when you haven't 26 00:01:30,430 --> 00:01:34,789 Speaker 1: had enormous experience of cycles and life experience? 27 00:01:36,150 --> 00:01:38,810 Speaker 2: Well, that's true, James. I think, look, I started my 28 00:01:38,850 --> 00:01:41,300 Speaker 2: journey in the workforce when I was 14 years old. 29 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,110 Speaker 2: So it Couldn't get a job, a casual job, when 30 00:01:44,150 --> 00:01:47,510 Speaker 2: I wanted one, so I created my own. So I 31 00:01:47,550 --> 00:01:50,250 Speaker 2: really am now celebrating my 10th year, my first decade 32 00:01:50,910 --> 00:01:53,580 Speaker 2: of working for myself. And I guess through that process, 33 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: I've ended up learning some really weird and wonderful things, 34 00:01:57,100 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: and financial literacy in particular was one of those things 35 00:02:00,620 --> 00:02:04,020 Speaker 2: that I was forced to learn when running my own business. 36 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 2: I think it built a beautiful social enterprise, and alongside that, without... 37 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,169 Speaker 2: parental grandparents help. I was able to, I guess, purchase 38 00:02:14,210 --> 00:02:17,550 Speaker 2: my first home at 18 and purchase three more within 39 00:02:17,830 --> 00:02:20,850 Speaker 2: four or five years thereafter. So I guess I am living, 40 00:02:21,070 --> 00:02:24,980 Speaker 2: breathing proof that young people, especially in their 20s, can 41 00:02:25,020 --> 00:02:26,179 Speaker 2: be financially independent. 42 00:02:26,620 --> 00:02:30,420 Speaker 1: And you are, and it's very impressive. Tell me, you 43 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: talk about school and that, and you mentioned financial literacy. 44 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,380 Speaker 1: Did you see the NAPLAN results that came out this? 45 00:02:37,419 --> 00:02:39,220 Speaker 1: I'm sure you did because this is one of your 46 00:02:39,260 --> 00:02:43,450 Speaker 1: key areas, I know. And how disappointing that NAPLAN results 47 00:02:43,770 --> 00:02:47,450 Speaker 1: are and how it never seems to improve. I mean, 48 00:02:47,630 --> 00:02:50,350 Speaker 1: enormous amounts of money went in on the Gonski plan. 49 00:02:50,850 --> 00:02:54,050 Speaker 1: And still we have this basic situation. where based the 50 00:02:54,070 --> 00:02:56,710 Speaker 1: wealthier you are, the more likely you are to do well. 51 00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:59,930 Speaker 1: If your parents went to university, you're much, much more 52 00:02:59,990 --> 00:03:03,490 Speaker 1: likely to go to university yourself. And we have these 53 00:03:03,530 --> 00:03:08,300 Speaker 1: sort of terribly, it seems to me, structural barriers. And 54 00:03:08,340 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: then in financial literacy, Taj, it's not very different. I mean, 55 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,970 Speaker 1: in many ways, they have similar issues, except financial literacy 56 00:03:16,990 --> 00:03:20,290 Speaker 1: scores are actually going backwards the naplan ones are bad 57 00:03:20,330 --> 00:03:23,950 Speaker 1: but they're stable in they're stable in their weakness but 58 00:03:23,990 --> 00:03:27,030 Speaker 1: financial literacy is even worse on the recent hilda on 59 00:03:27,070 --> 00:03:33,109 Speaker 1: the hilda scores uh what do you think because you 60 00:03:33,130 --> 00:03:35,490 Speaker 1: were particularly interested in this and you're involved in it 61 00:03:37,210 --> 00:03:42,220 Speaker 1: what can younger people do and i can we expect 62 00:03:42,260 --> 00:03:46,450 Speaker 1: so much from schools anyway if the broader education system 63 00:03:46,610 --> 00:03:50,290 Speaker 1: is so lacking anyway in terms of its scoring? 64 00:03:51,670 --> 00:03:53,730 Speaker 2: Well, I think there's probably a couple of points there, James. 65 00:03:53,790 --> 00:03:56,369 Speaker 2: I think the idea of, in all honesty, now I've 66 00:03:56,390 --> 00:04:00,950 Speaker 2: not seen the NAPLAN results. I find myself as a 67 00:04:00,990 --> 00:04:03,850 Speaker 2: student who went through NAPLAN over many years, I think 68 00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:08,340 Speaker 2: there's the divide between success in traditional education and I 69 00:04:08,340 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: guess the needs of the real world have never been 70 00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:15,370 Speaker 2: more clear, right? The value of a school-based qualification or 71 00:04:15,410 --> 00:04:19,070 Speaker 2: a university degree in particular has changed. Now, if I'm 72 00:04:19,089 --> 00:04:20,810 Speaker 2: going to a doctor or I'm going to get a surgery, 73 00:04:20,850 --> 00:04:23,710 Speaker 2: now I want my doctor and my surgeon to have 74 00:04:23,730 --> 00:04:26,970 Speaker 2: a university degree, right? I would feel far more comfortable 75 00:04:27,070 --> 00:04:29,620 Speaker 2: and I probably wouldn't see a doctor unless they had 76 00:04:29,650 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 2: that qualification. Same thing with a lawyer, some of those 77 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,510 Speaker 2: technical professions. But for most of the population, the. 78 00:04:36,990 --> 00:04:40,979 Speaker 2: Qualification, the certificate really is a mere indication of seat 79 00:04:41,070 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: time served rather than mastery and a genuine proficiency or 80 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: an understanding of a particular skill. I took that route. 81 00:04:50,460 --> 00:04:54,620 Speaker 2: I finished school, I just passed, but I built up 82 00:04:54,660 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: a number of a portfolio of skills in lots of 83 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,060 Speaker 2: different areas that I was passionate about and I was 84 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,849 Speaker 2: interested in. And I guess those skills actually meant something 85 00:05:02,910 --> 00:05:06,170 Speaker 2: because I was able to deliver and demonstrate those skills 86 00:05:06,550 --> 00:05:09,830 Speaker 2: in the real world alongside school. So I think there's a, obviously, 87 00:05:09,890 --> 00:05:12,510 Speaker 2: if we're measuring the wrong thing in NAPLAN is a 88 00:05:12,529 --> 00:05:16,510 Speaker 2: great indication of measuring young people on a very narrow 89 00:05:16,570 --> 00:05:19,210 Speaker 2: set of skills that may or may not be important 90 00:05:19,310 --> 00:05:22,490 Speaker 2: in the real world. What we like to see when 91 00:05:22,529 --> 00:05:26,310 Speaker 2: it comes to financial literacy, for example, the schools, teachers 92 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,700 Speaker 2: want to teach these sort of things, James, but if 93 00:05:28,740 --> 00:05:31,580 Speaker 2: they don't feel qualified to do it themselves, then we're 94 00:05:31,620 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 2: probably going to have a pretty tricky situation. That's probably 95 00:05:34,380 --> 00:05:37,540 Speaker 2: the case we're in right now where teachers don't necessarily 96 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,300 Speaker 2: feel fully qualified themselves to deliver their financial literacy education. 97 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: And therefore, the theoretical knowledge that I guess the curriculum 98 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: has built into the maths curriculum is being used, which 99 00:05:48,339 --> 00:05:53,780 Speaker 2: isn't overly useful, but 100% useful in the actual real world. 100 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: And that's what we're looking at solving. 101 00:05:56,779 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: I'd love to ask you a couple of questions just 102 00:05:58,380 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: on the hop here. And I know we had a plan, 103 00:06:01,740 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: but we're varying from it already. But I'm sure you'll 104 00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:08,410 Speaker 1: be able to wing it with me. Do you think 105 00:06:08,950 --> 00:06:12,340 Speaker 1: when they measure NAPLAN and even financial literacy, it's all 106 00:06:12,380 --> 00:06:13,460 Speaker 1: about numeracy. 107 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: A lot of it. 108 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:18,859 Speaker 1: Hangs on numeracy. Do you think that numeracy in and 109 00:06:18,940 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: of itself is fundamental to investment or business success? 110 00:06:24,940 --> 00:06:27,580 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. We need young people who can count. I 111 00:06:27,790 --> 00:06:30,790 Speaker 2: fundamentally believe that every single young person needs to have 112 00:06:30,810 --> 00:06:35,150 Speaker 2: a base level of maths understanding, and that's wonderful, I think. 113 00:06:35,620 --> 00:06:39,460 Speaker 2: The issue comes when we start asking young people have 114 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: a basic understanding of how to do long division, but 115 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,090 Speaker 2: they can't tell you how interest rates work or compound 116 00:06:45,130 --> 00:06:47,290 Speaker 2: interest works. And I think that's a problem. 117 00:06:47,529 --> 00:06:51,510 Speaker 1: Can I rephrase the question? You left school and you 118 00:06:51,529 --> 00:06:54,650 Speaker 1: went straight in. You have a social enterprise, growing social enterprise. 119 00:06:54,690 --> 00:06:59,810 Speaker 1: You've written a business investment book and you also have 120 00:07:00,029 --> 00:07:03,450 Speaker 1: multiple property interests. Let me rephrase the question. Do you 121 00:07:03,589 --> 00:07:10,350 Speaker 1: think the ability to successfully invest is innate to some degree? 122 00:07:11,010 --> 00:07:15,090 Speaker 2: Perhaps for some, but I think overall, it's something that 123 00:07:15,130 --> 00:07:18,910 Speaker 2: you can learn. In many cases, for a base level 124 00:07:18,970 --> 00:07:22,050 Speaker 2: of financial understanding, it's a skill and you can learn it, 125 00:07:22,210 --> 00:07:24,450 Speaker 2: but you need to know where to learn it from. 126 00:07:24,790 --> 00:07:27,550 Speaker 2: If you don't have two parents that have been in 127 00:07:27,570 --> 00:07:30,890 Speaker 2: the workforce or have got some level of financial literacy themselves, 128 00:07:31,270 --> 00:07:33,110 Speaker 2: the odds of you getting in school is very little. 129 00:07:33,630 --> 00:07:35,890 Speaker 2: So you've got to learn from somewhere. And that's the 130 00:07:36,070 --> 00:07:38,710 Speaker 2: big question mark. Where do you actually learn that from? 131 00:07:38,740 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: So where did you learn it from? 132 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: Look, Jay, so I did finish school. I finished grade 12, 133 00:07:44,500 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: which was great. I just had the attendance to get 134 00:07:49,140 --> 00:07:52,260 Speaker 2: my certificate of education. So that was wonderful. But I 135 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 2: had two parents that cared about me and loved me. 136 00:07:55,580 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: One parent My dad, he couldn't afford to go to 137 00:07:58,820 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: university in East Africa. So he went straight into the 138 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 2: workforce and I guess got a really good taste of 139 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: the world of work from a young age. Mum, on 140 00:08:06,230 --> 00:08:09,870 Speaker 2: the other hand, she spent a long time in university, 141 00:08:10,430 --> 00:08:13,830 Speaker 2: went back to university and is in the workforce right now. 142 00:08:13,870 --> 00:08:15,990 Speaker 2: So I had two parents that worked. And I think 143 00:08:16,010 --> 00:08:19,150 Speaker 2: the idea of having two parents that work is not novel, 144 00:08:19,190 --> 00:08:21,810 Speaker 2: but when we used to go out or when we 145 00:08:21,870 --> 00:08:24,270 Speaker 2: used to sit around for dinner at home, they wouldn't 146 00:08:24,310 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 2: shy away from having discussions about how much they've got 147 00:08:27,780 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: to pay on their credit cards. They didn't shy away 148 00:08:29,700 --> 00:08:33,990 Speaker 2: from discussions about their home loans or home loan. They 149 00:08:34,010 --> 00:08:37,329 Speaker 2: didn't shy away from discussions about how much things in 150 00:08:37,350 --> 00:08:39,170 Speaker 2: the real world cost. And that wasn't just something that 151 00:08:39,190 --> 00:08:42,910 Speaker 2: started when I was a teenager. These conversations were happening 152 00:08:42,990 --> 00:08:45,510 Speaker 2: from when I was in primary school. These were just 153 00:08:45,590 --> 00:08:47,710 Speaker 2: basic household conversations I was having. 154 00:08:47,850 --> 00:08:49,730 Speaker 1: You're telling me that it was very useful, obviously, but 155 00:08:50,050 --> 00:08:51,930 Speaker 1: they weren't entrepreneurs like you are. 156 00:08:52,980 --> 00:08:55,180 Speaker 2: I guess dad ended up starting a business a couple 157 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,140 Speaker 2: of years ago. So he dipped his toes into the 158 00:08:57,179 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: world of small business. But I guess both parents were 159 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: in work. They both worked for someone. I saw the 160 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 2: value of hard work and they never shied away from 161 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,449 Speaker 2: financial discussions or even just hard work conversations in front 162 00:09:10,490 --> 00:09:12,810 Speaker 2: of us. And I think that was probably, it taught 163 00:09:12,870 --> 00:09:16,770 Speaker 2: us that you've got to work hard in particular. 164 00:09:17,070 --> 00:09:19,069 Speaker 1: It's terrific. There's so much I want to cover with you. 165 00:09:19,470 --> 00:09:22,350 Speaker 1: We'll take a short break before I do take that break. 166 00:09:22,850 --> 00:09:28,070 Speaker 1: I will hit reverse and remind the audience what your 167 00:09:28,330 --> 00:09:30,710 Speaker 1: main operation is. I know we mentioned the book, but 168 00:09:30,750 --> 00:09:34,050 Speaker 1: you could give them an elevator pitch on what your daily, 169 00:09:34,170 --> 00:09:36,590 Speaker 1: on what your business, what ASE is, the group that 170 00:09:36,630 --> 00:09:37,390 Speaker 1: you're best known for. 171 00:09:38,570 --> 00:09:41,189 Speaker 2: Totally, James. So it's called the ASE group, and we 172 00:09:41,210 --> 00:09:46,010 Speaker 2: do life skills education, employment programs, and self-employment programs for 173 00:09:46,110 --> 00:09:49,070 Speaker 2: Aussies of all ages. We start with young people aged 174 00:09:49,150 --> 00:09:51,730 Speaker 2: three years old, so in kindergarten, And we take them 175 00:09:51,809 --> 00:09:54,820 Speaker 2: all the way up until like our oldest participants, like 176 00:09:54,820 --> 00:09:57,570 Speaker 2: 73 years old. So it covers the whole spectrum and 177 00:09:57,610 --> 00:10:00,500 Speaker 2: we really equip them with this adulting skill. that aren't 178 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: taught in traditional classrooms. 179 00:10:02,260 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 1: Very good okay we'll take a break we'll be back 180 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:15,100 Speaker 1: in a moment Hello and welcome back to the Australian's 181 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,890 Speaker 1: Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby, Wealth Editor at The Australian, 182 00:10:18,929 --> 00:10:23,070 Speaker 1: talking to Taj Bapari of the ASC Group, an author 183 00:10:23,510 --> 00:10:28,150 Speaker 1: of Young, Dumb and Financially Independent. I will say that 184 00:10:28,190 --> 00:10:31,670 Speaker 1: I had a look at the book, Taj, and I'm familiar, obviously, 185 00:10:31,710 --> 00:10:34,540 Speaker 1: with some of the basics that you needed to impart 186 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: to your readers and very young readers, which is great. 187 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,620 Speaker 1: And I'm delighted that you're doing that sort of work. 188 00:10:41,420 --> 00:10:44,939 Speaker 1: Can I just zone in on one thing about financial advice? 189 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,020 Speaker 1: Because you mentioned how you need to learn, right? And 190 00:10:49,940 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: my show and this show is really for investors primarily. 191 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: Lots of people have their own businesses, but it's about 192 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: the investment point when they go to invest. It might 193 00:10:59,420 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: be investing in property, might be investing on the share market. 194 00:11:03,100 --> 00:11:05,830 Speaker 1: It might be investing in their own super, whatever way 195 00:11:05,870 --> 00:11:08,470 Speaker 1: they want to approach it. So this issue of advice 196 00:11:08,530 --> 00:11:16,170 Speaker 1: is very central here. to everybody. Tell me your instinctive perception, 197 00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:20,610 Speaker 1: if you would, of the financial advice scene that is 198 00:11:20,710 --> 00:11:22,189 Speaker 1: open to people in Australia. 199 00:11:23,530 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess, James, look, it's tricky. I think the 200 00:11:26,050 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: people that, I guess, need financial advice are the ones 201 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 2: that can't perhaps afford it. And I think that's unfortunate. 202 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 2: We've seen the rise of these wonderful Some poor, some 203 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 2: wonderful influencers that young people have been so attracted to. Generally, 204 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: the young people that need this advice are the ones 205 00:11:45,260 --> 00:11:48,580 Speaker 2: that can't afford it. They're in part-time casualized work and 206 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,459 Speaker 2: therefore are looking for any way to grow in their lives. 207 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: They're turning to social media and sometimes they're getting some 208 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,420 Speaker 2: really poor advice because they quite simply just can't afford 209 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,700 Speaker 2: real authentic advice from an expert, I think. idea that 210 00:12:03,740 --> 00:12:06,670 Speaker 2: a financial advisor, in some cases, is out of reach 211 00:12:06,690 --> 00:12:08,550 Speaker 2: for some young people. And that's why they're turning to 212 00:12:08,590 --> 00:12:11,470 Speaker 2: social media to get their advice from that. Yes. 213 00:12:12,130 --> 00:12:16,910 Speaker 1: And what do you think of the conundrum that they face? 214 00:12:18,620 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: Is there a middle ground between influencers who are terribly 215 00:12:24,980 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: varied in quality? And I worry about the banality basically 216 00:12:31,059 --> 00:12:33,330 Speaker 1: often of the advice is for want of a better 217 00:12:33,370 --> 00:12:35,750 Speaker 1: word that I see there. Sometimes it's okay. Sometimes it's 218 00:12:35,830 --> 00:12:41,069 Speaker 1: absolutely dreadful. And then at the other end, there's financial advisors. 219 00:12:41,090 --> 00:12:43,990 Speaker 1: They want $ 5, 000 when you walk in the door. What 220 00:12:44,030 --> 00:12:45,770 Speaker 1: can we do? What can younger people do? 221 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,420 Speaker 2: Yeah, like I think obviously everyone who's doing this is 222 00:12:50,460 --> 00:12:51,900 Speaker 2: an adult and they've got to make their own decisions. 223 00:12:52,179 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 2: And I think the more options, the better. They've got 224 00:12:54,260 --> 00:12:57,099 Speaker 2: to make a decision of which option ultimately is right 225 00:12:57,140 --> 00:13:00,429 Speaker 2: for them. I think influencers can be wonderful. I think 226 00:13:00,450 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 2: they've exposed a lot more young people that wouldn't necessarily 227 00:13:03,620 --> 00:13:07,100 Speaker 2: be thinking about their careers to the big wide world 228 00:13:07,179 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: of finances. So from a place of an introduction, I 229 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:14,900 Speaker 2: think that's fantastic. We also know that young people have 230 00:13:14,940 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: a very low attention span. Now, I'm 24. I'm in 231 00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:21,250 Speaker 2: the heart of Gen Z. I'm not a huge user 232 00:13:21,290 --> 00:13:24,470 Speaker 2: of social media, but my attention span is far lower 233 00:13:24,510 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: than The average human being, I think, as we go 234 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,620 Speaker 2: from Gen Z to Gen Alpha, that's only getting more significant. 235 00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:34,590 Speaker 2: And that's why quick 30, 40 second reels on Instagram 236 00:13:34,610 --> 00:13:37,910 Speaker 2: or TikTok teaching them about a particular area of finance 237 00:13:37,950 --> 00:13:42,670 Speaker 2: is so captivating. Obviously, that's not practical. That method or 238 00:13:42,990 --> 00:13:46,500 Speaker 2: that medium of education is not practical for giving personalized 239 00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 2: financial advice, but actually recognizing that young people are disengaging 240 00:13:51,059 --> 00:13:54,209 Speaker 2: far quicker than everyone else. And Obviously, that's why they're 241 00:13:54,250 --> 00:13:57,290 Speaker 2: going to social media to get that advice. I think 242 00:13:58,070 --> 00:14:00,429 Speaker 2: it's obviously very boring, but there's got to be some 243 00:14:00,490 --> 00:14:03,830 Speaker 2: level of toning it down and making it a lot 244 00:14:03,870 --> 00:14:07,429 Speaker 2: more youth-friendly to get more young people to actually use 245 00:14:07,550 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 2: proper formal advice mechanisms, not just social media. 246 00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:12,700 Speaker 1: Boring but worthy. Hey, I'm going to pepper you with 247 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: a couple of quick questions, okay? What do you think 248 00:14:15,340 --> 00:14:18,980 Speaker 1: is the most common misconceptions that younger people make about 249 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:20,580 Speaker 1: finance and investing? 250 00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:25,340 Speaker 2: Look, I think we're seeing so much doom and gloom, James, 251 00:14:25,390 --> 00:14:29,100 Speaker 2: about buying your home. And if that's your asset of choice, fantastic. 252 00:14:29,140 --> 00:14:31,220 Speaker 2: For me, it was. I believe in it. It's something 253 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,460 Speaker 2: that I decided to pursue from a young age. There's 254 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,540 Speaker 2: so much doom and gloom that buying a house or 255 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 2: buying your first home is just not going to happen 256 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:41,740 Speaker 2: for this generation. And I think that's crazy. 257 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,450 Speaker 1: Sorry, you think it's crazy because you think you should 258 00:14:45,490 --> 00:14:46,910 Speaker 1: have a more confident attitude? 259 00:14:48,030 --> 00:14:51,570 Speaker 2: Absolutely. It's entirely possible for young people. We float these 260 00:14:51,910 --> 00:14:55,790 Speaker 2: big numbers about median housing prices across the country. And yeah, 261 00:14:55,830 --> 00:14:59,970 Speaker 2: they look large and that's what it is. But statistically, 262 00:14:59,990 --> 00:15:03,590 Speaker 2: there's 50% of houses underneath that are a lot cheaper. 263 00:15:03,650 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 2: So I guess young people don't necessarily need to buy 264 00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: an average house. They also don't need to buy their 265 00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: dream home. And I think if we look at and 266 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: expose young people to the fact that housing isn't that 267 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,380 Speaker 2: doom and gloom, and that's just one example that it's 268 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,710 Speaker 2: entirely possible to start laying down foundations from a young age. 269 00:15:21,730 --> 00:15:26,220 Speaker 2: And I think be that housing, be that their basic 270 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: share portfolios, start young, start learning young, read lots, consume 271 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:33,900 Speaker 2: a significant amount of information. And I think the sooner 272 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,700 Speaker 2: you begin that journey, the happier hopefully they'll be in 273 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:37,210 Speaker 2: the future. 274 00:15:37,230 --> 00:15:39,530 Speaker 1: Okay, I like your approach. Tell me, you're familiar, we 275 00:15:39,570 --> 00:15:43,130 Speaker 1: did a show recently on the FIRE movement. People love 276 00:15:43,190 --> 00:15:47,350 Speaker 1: to grab a concept. And you know, FIRE, financial independence, 277 00:15:47,410 --> 00:15:51,630 Speaker 1: retire early. And we were talking about social media and influencers. 278 00:15:52,170 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: Lots of that, that fire movement gets a lot of attention. 279 00:15:55,820 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: Do you think it's a realistic path to follow that 280 00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:03,100 Speaker 1: you could retire early? And what do you think you 281 00:16:03,140 --> 00:16:04,479 Speaker 1: might have to do to achieve that? 282 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,060 Speaker 2: As you put it, everything's got to be done in moderation. 283 00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:09,660 Speaker 2: The idea of not having any friends and if you 284 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:11,989 Speaker 2: don't have any friends, you don't have the expenses and 285 00:16:12,010 --> 00:16:14,950 Speaker 2: you can retire early is, I guess, maybe appealing to 286 00:16:16,050 --> 00:16:19,650 Speaker 2: to an interesting introvert who genuinely just wants to retire 287 00:16:19,690 --> 00:16:21,170 Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere in a caravan in their 288 00:16:21,190 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 2: friend's land. And that's fine. But I think in moderation, 289 00:16:23,630 --> 00:16:26,780 Speaker 2: that's not such a bad thing. Take everything, like anything 290 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: in life, whether it be sugar, ginger beer, whatever, everything 291 00:16:31,060 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 2: in moderation. I think the same thing for the principal. 292 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,660 Speaker 2: I think it can equip young people in particular with 293 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:43,020 Speaker 2: some good overall financial habits. But again, everything in moderation, 294 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:44,660 Speaker 2: and that's probably a really good one. 295 00:16:45,550 --> 00:16:50,030 Speaker 1: All right, let me try something else with you. You're 24. 296 00:16:50,030 --> 00:16:53,350 Speaker 1: If you woke up tomorrow and you were 34 and 297 00:16:53,390 --> 00:16:58,370 Speaker 1: you had two small kids and a large mortgage, and 298 00:16:58,410 --> 00:17:01,460 Speaker 1: let's just say for, just to make it even more interesting, 299 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: that your career was going through a more difficult patch 300 00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: than it is at the moment, for whatever purpose. Do 301 00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:16,409 Speaker 1: you think your attitude and the concepts you've put forward 302 00:17:16,450 --> 00:17:20,250 Speaker 1: in your book about financial independence and the approach would 303 00:17:20,290 --> 00:17:21,290 Speaker 1: change in any fashion? 304 00:17:23,090 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: Look, James, while I don't have any human kids, I 305 00:17:25,660 --> 00:17:28,700 Speaker 2: do have two cat kids and a couple of seven-figure mortgages. 306 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 2: So yes, while obviously the specific pressures that I may 307 00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:37,420 Speaker 2: face at 33 with two human children may differ, I 308 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,900 Speaker 2: think the fundamentals are the same. So many Aussies aren't 309 00:17:40,980 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 2: living within their means, and that might be In many cases, 310 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 2: in my opinion, it is out of choice. You look 311 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,540 Speaker 2: at young people buying cars, James. Does a 17-year-old in 312 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: school actually need a car? It's become a rite of 313 00:17:55,859 --> 00:17:58,350 Speaker 2: passage for many 16s and 17s when they get a 314 00:17:58,420 --> 00:18:01,110 Speaker 2: loan licence or their P's. But I don't believe young 315 00:18:01,150 --> 00:18:03,630 Speaker 2: people need a car. They could put that money towards 316 00:18:04,030 --> 00:18:06,810 Speaker 2: something far more constructive to set them up for life. Now, 317 00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:11,790 Speaker 2: at 33, I sort of feel that everything, you've got to, 318 00:18:12,130 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 2: hopefully you've got to, A decent job, you've got a 319 00:18:14,140 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: decent career. You might be struggling, but I don't think 320 00:18:18,660 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: any of the principles would change. The fundamentals would be 321 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,460 Speaker 2: the same because I believe you live within your means. 322 00:18:26,510 --> 00:18:27,369 Speaker 1: Do you have a car? 323 00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:30,210 Speaker 2: I don't now, actually. No, I don't have a license, actually, James. 324 00:18:30,510 --> 00:18:33,090 Speaker 2: So when I was buying my first homes, I'd be 325 00:18:33,109 --> 00:18:35,090 Speaker 2: taking a bus with my electric scooter and then I'd 326 00:18:35,130 --> 00:18:37,510 Speaker 2: electric scoot to all the opens. And that's what I've 327 00:18:37,530 --> 00:18:39,450 Speaker 2: done up until we bought one a couple of months 328 00:18:39,490 --> 00:18:41,990 Speaker 2: ago and I scooted. to the settlement. So I guess 329 00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:44,850 Speaker 2: it's something that I've done and still do. I guess it's, 330 00:18:45,470 --> 00:18:49,169 Speaker 2: I believe there would be absolutely no difference. There was 331 00:18:49,210 --> 00:18:51,830 Speaker 2: that Tony Robbins quote, when people are about to die 332 00:18:51,869 --> 00:18:56,030 Speaker 2: or succeed, they tend to succeed, right? And if you 333 00:18:56,070 --> 00:18:58,550 Speaker 2: were in that position and you were struggling, it's really 334 00:18:58,590 --> 00:19:01,090 Speaker 2: a matter of wanting my opinion. And I guess I 335 00:19:01,109 --> 00:19:03,250 Speaker 2: don't say that as someone who's grown up. Yes, I 336 00:19:03,290 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 2: went to a good school and I had two parents 337 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,620 Speaker 2: that loved me, but my first business at 19 ran 338 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,260 Speaker 2: out of money and we got ourselves out of that. 339 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,020 Speaker 2: with just strong, hard decisions. And I think that would 340 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,780 Speaker 2: be no different if we were going to do it again. 341 00:19:14,900 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: Do you think, I just want to finish on this, Taj, 342 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,859 Speaker 1: but I find, I certainly find it very interesting peppering 343 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,980 Speaker 1: you with these questions. Do you think, do you perceive 344 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:30,370 Speaker 1: even that your attitude towards risk might decline as you 345 00:19:30,410 --> 00:19:32,790 Speaker 1: get older? Or have you even felt that happening already? 346 00:19:33,490 --> 00:19:35,929 Speaker 2: Of course, I think I was far more open to 347 00:19:35,990 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 2: trying different types of things when I was pre-mortgage, pre-cats, pre-partner. Absolutely, 348 00:19:44,540 --> 00:19:47,590 Speaker 2: that's natural, but... Why? 349 00:19:48,270 --> 00:19:49,170 Speaker 1: Why is it natural? 350 00:19:49,730 --> 00:19:53,620 Speaker 2: Well, look... I think you're conserving, you're protecting, I guess, 351 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,260 Speaker 2: what you might have built. When you don't have anything, 352 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:59,790 Speaker 2: it's a lot easier to perhaps risk what's available. I 353 00:19:59,810 --> 00:20:03,169 Speaker 2: guess when you've actually perhaps built something or you've got 354 00:20:03,210 --> 00:20:05,770 Speaker 2: to a certain level, you want to conserve the base. 355 00:20:06,010 --> 00:20:08,790 Speaker 2: And I think, I guess, 24 right now, and that's 356 00:20:08,830 --> 00:20:10,350 Speaker 2: the phase I'm in. Yeah, absolutely. 357 00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:16,270 Speaker 1: Wouldn't that disposition start to limit you as a business person, 358 00:20:16,330 --> 00:20:17,990 Speaker 1: an entrepreneur as you go forward? 359 00:20:18,690 --> 00:20:22,010 Speaker 2: Perhaps, but I guess in my business, James, my job 360 00:20:22,050 --> 00:20:24,379 Speaker 2: is to grow, but make sure that the interests of 361 00:20:24,430 --> 00:20:27,140 Speaker 2: my investors are protected and make sure that in 10 362 00:20:27,140 --> 00:20:30,180 Speaker 2: years time, this structure is still standing. And I guess 363 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: in the same way, in my own personal life, yeah, 364 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: of course, we all want to grow. But there's got 365 00:20:36,820 --> 00:20:40,139 Speaker 2: to be some level of a base that I want 366 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:41,870 Speaker 2: to keep in order for me to live the life 367 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,130 Speaker 2: that I want to live. And I think the same 368 00:20:44,190 --> 00:20:46,909 Speaker 2: way you grow a business, you don't risk 100% of 369 00:20:46,930 --> 00:20:48,990 Speaker 2: the business every single time you take a step to grow. 370 00:20:49,030 --> 00:20:52,129 Speaker 2: I think the same thing would happen and happens as 371 00:20:52,170 --> 00:20:53,190 Speaker 2: perhaps you grow older. 372 00:20:54,050 --> 00:20:56,930 Speaker 1: Okay, very good. All right, we'll be back in a moment, folks. 373 00:20:57,390 --> 00:21:00,890 Speaker 1: And we will be back talking to Taj about some 374 00:21:01,010 --> 00:21:03,909 Speaker 1: of his investors, actually, I want to talk about. And 375 00:21:03,930 --> 00:21:06,109 Speaker 1: I want to talk about how he applies some of 376 00:21:06,150 --> 00:21:09,370 Speaker 1: the principles that he explains in his book, Young, Dumb 377 00:21:09,430 --> 00:21:13,180 Speaker 1: and Financially Independent, to his own life and his business activities. 378 00:21:13,420 --> 00:21:26,470 Speaker 1: Back in a moment. Hello, welcome back to The Money Puzzle. 379 00:21:26,690 --> 00:21:32,190 Speaker 1: James Kirby and Taj Bahpari here. Taj, the book, Young, 380 00:21:32,230 --> 00:21:35,330 Speaker 1: Dumb and Financially Independent, you've been very fortunate. I've mentioned 381 00:21:35,350 --> 00:21:37,389 Speaker 1: the title about five times. Normally when someone's on the 382 00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:39,110 Speaker 1: show and they have a book, I mention it once. 383 00:21:40,340 --> 00:21:41,580 Speaker 2: I think it's a good title, by the way. 384 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,900 Speaker 1: Tell me, it's all about being financially independent, financially smart. 385 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,859 Speaker 1: Here's the thing. Did you get a good deal with 386 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: the publisher when you published that book? 387 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,909 Speaker 2: Look, we decided to go through that process ourselves, James, 388 00:21:55,970 --> 00:21:59,659 Speaker 2: I think. When we began this process, we realized that 389 00:21:59,740 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 2: you actually have to be very famous and you have 390 00:22:02,420 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 2: to do something really quite incredible in order to make 391 00:22:05,460 --> 00:22:09,290 Speaker 2: that pathway with the traditional publisher work. So we decided 392 00:22:09,310 --> 00:22:12,010 Speaker 2: to go through that ourselves. We ended up with some 393 00:22:12,170 --> 00:22:15,290 Speaker 2: beautiful distribution pathways and hopefully it's going to be a 394 00:22:15,330 --> 00:22:17,550 Speaker 2: really great asset for young adults and school students. 395 00:22:18,190 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: So you applied your entrepreneurial zeal basically and said, I'm 396 00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:28,690 Speaker 1: not going into corporate publisher to get a miserable deal, 397 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to actually do it myself. 398 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, look, we've got our publishing arm now in case 399 00:22:35,619 --> 00:22:39,620 Speaker 2: any of our future employees decide to write their own 400 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,699 Speaker 2: little pieces. James, we're all about life skills, so who 401 00:22:42,740 --> 00:22:45,490 Speaker 2: knows what the next life skills might be. But absolutely, 402 00:22:45,550 --> 00:22:48,030 Speaker 2: I think it was a pure financial decision. We looked 403 00:22:48,070 --> 00:22:50,070 Speaker 2: at the numbers on traditional, we looked at the numbers 404 00:22:50,109 --> 00:22:52,990 Speaker 2: going directly, and for us, it just totally made sense. 405 00:22:53,340 --> 00:22:55,900 Speaker 1: Yes, I've entertained the listeners before with the fact that 406 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: I wrote five books. Four of them were business and 407 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,980 Speaker 1: one was history. And then I stopped. I wrote five 408 00:23:01,020 --> 00:23:03,770 Speaker 1: books in six years and then I stopped because I 409 00:23:03,810 --> 00:23:06,590 Speaker 1: realized I'd probably get more per hour, you know, flipping 410 00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:09,669 Speaker 1: burgers somewhere. But I still get royalty checks and I 411 00:23:09,710 --> 00:23:12,169 Speaker 1: got my royalty check this year and I think it 412 00:23:12,210 --> 00:23:16,290 Speaker 1: was $ 145. 413 00:23:14,950 --> 00:23:18,230 Speaker 2: Well, congratulations. That's $ 145 in the right direction. 414 00:23:18,730 --> 00:23:21,150 Speaker 1: Yes, which tells me I should have done what you did. 415 00:23:21,609 --> 00:23:22,670 Speaker 2: All right. Very good. 416 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: Tell us briefly about your link with ASE. You explained 417 00:23:28,780 --> 00:23:31,180 Speaker 1: the business. And obviously, in a way, I don't want 418 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,699 Speaker 1: to call it an entrepreneurial school, but there's an element 419 00:23:34,740 --> 00:23:36,630 Speaker 1: of that to it. And there's an element of financial 420 00:23:36,730 --> 00:23:40,790 Speaker 1: literacy initiative and agency there. You have some interesting investors. 421 00:23:40,810 --> 00:23:44,500 Speaker 1: You had an investor that's very well known. celebrity investor 422 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:45,780 Speaker 1: really tell us about that. 423 00:23:46,540 --> 00:23:48,740 Speaker 2: We do so i guess we're a social enterprise but 424 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,060 Speaker 2: everything's we've got some great impact investors and one of 425 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 2: them is steve baxter who used to be on shark 426 00:23:53,420 --> 00:23:55,929 Speaker 2: tank and um i guess steve and i've known each 427 00:23:55,950 --> 00:23:58,869 Speaker 2: other for for many years um i actually went to 428 00:23:58,890 --> 00:24:01,389 Speaker 2: his office when i was 15 to pitch my first 429 00:24:01,450 --> 00:24:03,930 Speaker 2: idea to him and um i wore my dad's suit 430 00:24:04,109 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 2: and um i guess saw him on a weekend he 431 00:24:07,020 --> 00:24:08,900 Speaker 2: made the time on a weekend and he hated my 432 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 2: idea i i think i walked out of the room 433 00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:14,690 Speaker 2: in tears and we ended up just keeping in touch. 434 00:24:14,780 --> 00:24:16,950 Speaker 2: And a couple of years ago, he jumped onto this business. 435 00:24:17,490 --> 00:24:17,890 Speaker 2: I see. 436 00:24:18,020 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: What was the idea he rejected? And why did he 437 00:24:20,540 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: like the one you have now? 438 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 2: It was teaching kids about digital literacy, which I really 439 00:24:25,460 --> 00:24:28,540 Speaker 2: thought was right up his alley as this tech tycoon. 440 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 2: And we wanted to create 21st century Lego. So rather 441 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,340 Speaker 2: than just using like boring plastic bricks, get young people 442 00:24:35,420 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: to actually build up, connect the pieces of a motherboard 443 00:24:38,060 --> 00:24:41,889 Speaker 2: and the flex cables, the ramp, cpu etc and at 444 00:24:41,930 --> 00:24:43,409 Speaker 2: the end it would turn on and be a tablet 445 00:24:43,859 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 2: i walked out of that room i think we wanted 446 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,220 Speaker 2: like a hundred thousand dollars of investment and he said 447 00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:50,580 Speaker 2: if you sell 10 000 of these units i'll give 448 00:24:50,619 --> 00:24:52,899 Speaker 2: you a million dollars in cash we actually ended up 449 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,379 Speaker 2: selling 10 000 of these in pre-orders we had to 450 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,220 Speaker 2: refund everyone's orders because of like some electrical safety issues 451 00:25:00,590 --> 00:25:02,790 Speaker 2: so we actually did sell 10 000 we just had 452 00:25:02,810 --> 00:25:05,629 Speaker 2: to refund everyone which was unfortunate but yeah no he 453 00:25:05,670 --> 00:25:07,830 Speaker 2: ended up taking a liking to the idea of teaching 454 00:25:07,850 --> 00:25:09,350 Speaker 2: kids okay. 455 00:25:09,109 --> 00:25:11,970 Speaker 1: And he's still involved obviously with you is he like 456 00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:15,370 Speaker 1: involved in your strategic direction. 457 00:25:15,150 --> 00:25:17,719 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah he's on our advisory board in. 458 00:25:17,710 --> 00:25:20,540 Speaker 1: Terms of financial literacy more generally because that's your passion 459 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,260 Speaker 1: i know particularly as it applies to younger people they're 460 00:25:25,660 --> 00:25:29,910 Speaker 1: the the extra e c s t r a the 461 00:25:29,970 --> 00:25:34,030 Speaker 1: the foundation the financial literacy foundation I mean, it's difficult, obviously, 462 00:25:34,330 --> 00:25:39,430 Speaker 1: against the concept of NAPLAN itself. The education in Australia is, well, 463 00:25:39,490 --> 00:25:43,260 Speaker 1: on international scores, is very poor. The financial literacy is 464 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,420 Speaker 1: even poorer. But they extra have been running some big 465 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: programs through the schools, basically not waiting for the government 466 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,820 Speaker 1: to pick up and get going. And they've been running 467 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,150 Speaker 1: their own programs through schools, quite a lot of programs 468 00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:58,990 Speaker 1: through schools. And it's an interesting organization. I think they 469 00:25:59,030 --> 00:26:02,660 Speaker 1: are doing quite well within that. Is there anything you 470 00:26:02,740 --> 00:26:07,820 Speaker 1: think that, are there any easy wins that you think 471 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,180 Speaker 1: have been missed in financial literacy society? 472 00:26:12,460 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, James, I think there's lots of one-off programs that 473 00:26:15,770 --> 00:26:18,689 Speaker 2: currently take place in schools and universities where you go 474 00:26:18,730 --> 00:26:20,609 Speaker 2: in for a day or an hour, two hours, you 475 00:26:20,650 --> 00:26:24,870 Speaker 2: listen to someone talk about, yeah, you should budget, you 476 00:26:24,910 --> 00:26:28,830 Speaker 2: should look at buying a home or whatever that presentation 477 00:26:28,869 --> 00:26:31,409 Speaker 2: might be, but they're very one-off. They come in and 478 00:26:31,430 --> 00:26:34,369 Speaker 2: they leave and everyone goes back to their day-to-day habits 479 00:26:34,490 --> 00:26:37,590 Speaker 2: and it's business as usual. We sort of feel that 480 00:26:37,630 --> 00:26:40,110 Speaker 2: there's got to be something a bit more long-term. There's 481 00:26:40,150 --> 00:26:42,630 Speaker 2: got to be something that's got to be just like 482 00:26:43,010 --> 00:26:46,490 Speaker 2: an English class where you really get to the nitty-gritty 483 00:26:46,830 --> 00:26:49,990 Speaker 2: of that particular book or Shakespeare play you're writing on. 484 00:26:50,210 --> 00:26:52,550 Speaker 2: There's got to be something more consistent. We sort of 485 00:26:52,590 --> 00:26:55,780 Speaker 2: feel school is a great place for that, absolutely, because 486 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 2: the kids are only in school from nine to three. University, 487 00:26:58,940 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 2: even better. They're barely there. So the best time to 488 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,070 Speaker 2: teach these skills is to do it in school. 489 00:27:06,740 --> 00:27:08,810 Speaker 1: Do you think it should be a standalone subject in school? 490 00:27:08,990 --> 00:27:13,310 Speaker 2: Life skills. It should cover that broader life skills area. 491 00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:17,510 Speaker 2: Financial literacy is obviously a fundamental element to that. But 492 00:27:17,550 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 2: when we actually think, well, how do we do it? 493 00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:22,410 Speaker 2: Encouraging young people to start a business from a young 494 00:27:22,530 --> 00:27:26,390 Speaker 2: age is a perfect way to teach financial literacy, regardless 495 00:27:26,410 --> 00:27:28,850 Speaker 2: of whether they care about running a business or not 496 00:27:28,970 --> 00:27:32,629 Speaker 2: in the future. The principle of starting a business forces 497 00:27:32,690 --> 00:27:34,550 Speaker 2: you to become a jack of all trades. You have 498 00:27:34,590 --> 00:27:38,590 Speaker 2: to understand basic. You have to read profit and loss statements. 499 00:27:38,609 --> 00:27:42,230 Speaker 2: You've got to submit your BAS statements. Even just the basics, 500 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: even if it's not a micro business, at a young 501 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,140 Speaker 2: age will, I guess, ensure that young people are taught 502 00:27:48,180 --> 00:27:50,860 Speaker 2: basic financial literacy. And I think that's a great thing. 503 00:27:51,780 --> 00:27:54,500 Speaker 1: I want to ask you two other things. One is 504 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,700 Speaker 1: about financial literacy. Do you think commercial organizations can be trusted? 505 00:27:59,310 --> 00:28:02,270 Speaker 1: with financial literacy. I'm thinking of disappointment in the past 506 00:28:02,310 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: with banks and investment companies when they claim to offer 507 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: a financial education, and that will never end, and they 508 00:28:07,859 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: do it in a very sophisticated manner. Yours is a 509 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,540 Speaker 1: social enterprise, so I wouldn't worry, but I'm talking about 510 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:18,409 Speaker 1: a profit-making enterprise. Do you think they can be trusted 511 00:28:18,430 --> 00:28:20,670 Speaker 1: with financial literacy assignments? 512 00:28:22,130 --> 00:28:25,270 Speaker 2: Not directly. No, I think we've got to be extremely careful, 513 00:28:25,330 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 2: and we've seen some of the effects of one bank 514 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,220 Speaker 2: in particular and what they've done to financial literacy in Australia. 515 00:28:31,790 --> 00:28:34,450 Speaker 2: I think we've got to be extremely careful with banks. 516 00:28:34,550 --> 00:28:37,130 Speaker 1: Are you talking about the Dolomites program? 517 00:28:37,550 --> 00:28:41,950 Speaker 2: Yep. So, James, in transparency, my parents signed me up 518 00:28:41,970 --> 00:28:44,370 Speaker 2: for Dolomites in school. I got my money box in 519 00:28:44,390 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: the classroom and my first mortgage was with CBA. So 520 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,660 Speaker 2: I guess I was a... I guess I've got nothing 521 00:28:50,900 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 2: against CBA, but that's a perfect example that their financial 522 00:28:53,860 --> 00:28:57,090 Speaker 2: literacy program wasn't about financial literacy. It was a marketing 523 00:28:57,210 --> 00:29:01,690 Speaker 2: pipeline building program. I firmly believe that, I guess, done right, 524 00:29:02,060 --> 00:29:04,620 Speaker 2: we've got to be careful, but done right, banks do 525 00:29:04,660 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: have a place to teach financial literacy to young people 526 00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:12,820 Speaker 2: from a pure education point of view. There's got to 527 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 2: be some arm length between their actual marketing teams, but 528 00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 2: I think they do have a path to play in 529 00:29:18,260 --> 00:29:21,620 Speaker 2: teaching young people because, I guess, they've got brand recognition 530 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 2: and schools are screaming for this sort of stuff. So, 531 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 2: They've got branches all across the country. Why not bring 532 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,230 Speaker 2: them into schools in an open, transparent way, but doesn't 533 00:29:32,270 --> 00:29:36,510 Speaker 2: result in them actually signing up to their bank right there, 534 00:29:36,910 --> 00:29:37,170 Speaker 2: right now? 535 00:29:37,550 --> 00:29:41,250 Speaker 1: Okay. Well, hope springs are turned. last thing. You mentioned 536 00:29:41,270 --> 00:29:43,950 Speaker 1: in passing that about investment property and that you had 537 00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:47,380 Speaker 1: several properties. Do you see that as a business in itself? 538 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: People should approach that as a business in itself. 539 00:29:50,260 --> 00:29:52,739 Speaker 2: Look, James, I'm a capitalist. I do. I believe it's 540 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,580 Speaker 2: a great business. I've taken just like Someone might want 541 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,290 Speaker 2: to sell popcorn as a side hustle between their jobs. 542 00:29:59,730 --> 00:30:02,210 Speaker 2: This is my side hustle. This is my business outside 543 00:30:02,230 --> 00:30:04,030 Speaker 2: of work. I love my job. I've got the best 544 00:30:04,050 --> 00:30:06,870 Speaker 2: job in the world. But my pastime, the thing that 545 00:30:06,930 --> 00:30:09,380 Speaker 2: I do for fun is I go to open homes. 546 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,260 Speaker 2: I look at property. I check out the market. And 547 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,300 Speaker 2: that's what I genuinely do for fun. So it's a 548 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 2: fun business for me. 549 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,700 Speaker 1: You're not the only one, Taj. We have many listeners. 550 00:30:19,770 --> 00:30:21,630 Speaker 1: You've picked up the national pastime pretty quick. 551 00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:27,030 Speaker 2: Well, look, investors have been demonized by many people, many 552 00:30:27,090 --> 00:30:32,550 Speaker 2: outspoken people who've got very quick one sentence slogans that 553 00:30:32,630 --> 00:30:36,430 Speaker 2: fit on green colored banners. But I think it's a 554 00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 2: great business. It's a great business to teach you about 555 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: the world. And even leaving aside the financial side, I've 556 00:30:42,180 --> 00:30:44,780 Speaker 2: met some great people through that circle. So from a 557 00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: social point of view, I've built a beautiful network. So 558 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,140 Speaker 2: it's become a fun business, but also a really great 559 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:56,180 Speaker 2: way to meet interesting, like-minded individuals. Okay, terrific. 560 00:30:56,260 --> 00:30:58,780 Speaker 1: We might leave it at that, Taj. Thank you very 561 00:30:58,820 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: much for coming on the show. That's Taj Pabari of 562 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,380 Speaker 1: the ASE. 563 00:31:02,860 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 2: Group, folks. 564 00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:05,780 Speaker 1: You can check him out further. You can check out 565 00:31:05,820 --> 00:31:07,700 Speaker 1: his book, which I've mentioned so often, I'm going to 566 00:31:07,740 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: repeat the title again. But if you've been listening to 567 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,959 Speaker 1: the show, then you know what it is. He published 568 00:31:12,010 --> 00:31:15,130 Speaker 1: it himself, which is all the more impressive. It's probably 569 00:31:15,150 --> 00:31:17,250 Speaker 1: become a bit easier to do that these days. It 570 00:31:17,350 --> 00:31:19,510 Speaker 1: used to be very difficult. It's got a bit easier. 571 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,110 Speaker 1: But congratulations on it, Taj. And thanks very much for 572 00:31:24,140 --> 00:31:24,990 Speaker 1: coming on the show. 573 00:31:25,510 --> 00:31:26,550 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, James. 574 00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:30,830 Speaker 1: Lovely to have you. OK, folks, we will resume normal 575 00:31:30,890 --> 00:31:34,350 Speaker 1: transmission next week and we will be having correspondence. We 576 00:31:34,370 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: will be doing questions and answers again. I'm delighted to 577 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,940 Speaker 1: say that we just had a short break on that. 578 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,980 Speaker 1: As you know, let's have a revival now, if we may, 579 00:31:43,660 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: on the questions coming in from listeners. The email is 580 00:31:48,260 --> 00:31:50,090 Speaker 1: themoneypuzzle Talk to you next week.