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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is

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Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into

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Speaker 1: this world. Today, I had a sad yet inspiring conversation

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Speaker 1: with Melissa and Peter McGinnis. We talked about the death

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Speaker 1: of their eighteen year old son, Jordan, who died in

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Speaker 1: the horrific car crash in twenty twelve. It was a

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Speaker 1: crash that could have been avoided. Other young lives were

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Speaker 1: lost in the crash. Now, death on their roads, unless

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Speaker 1: it impacts on you personally, is often just passed off.

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Speaker 1: As road statistics, but for those close to the people killed,

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Speaker 1: it's life destroying. It's hard to imagine the pain of

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Speaker 1: losing your child in those circumstances. I speak to Melissa

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Speaker 1: and Peter about that, But there is also another complex

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Speaker 1: layer to what happened to them. See, their son, Jordan,

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Speaker 1: was driving a vehicle that crashed into a parked car

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Speaker 1: containing the four victims. Jordan was almost three times over

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Speaker 1: the legal limit, traveling well over the speed limit, and

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Speaker 1: had lost his license just days before. As I've said,

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Speaker 1: it was something that could have been avoided. Today, I

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Speaker 1: had a deeply personal conversation with Melissa and Peter about

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Speaker 1: all the emotions they've had to process that include shame, anger, sadness,

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Speaker 1: and regret. We talked about the guilt they felt and

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Speaker 1: coming to terms with the fact their son's actions destroyed

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Speaker 1: so many lives. There are some important, thought provoking messages

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Speaker 1: in this conversation. Have a listened to what they have

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Speaker 1: to say, it blew me away, and I think you

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Speaker 1: might feel the same way. Melissa and Peter McGinnis, thanks

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Speaker 1: very much for coming on Eye Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having us Gary. Thanks mate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I thought long and hard about how to

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Speaker 1: have this conversation because it's a difficult conversation. But one

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Speaker 1: thing that really comes out to me researching and finding

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Speaker 1: out what's happened and also having conversations with you before

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Speaker 1: the podcast, is that so much is encapsulated in choices

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Speaker 1: we make in life, isn't it, And one choice can

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Speaker 1: just have devastating effects. What's your thoughts on that? With

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Speaker 1: your son Jordan the bad choice and look what's happened.

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Speaker 1: Do you often reflect on the consequences of choices we make?

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Speaker 4: Well, it's very much shaped our lives, hasn't it myself

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Speaker 4: the last nearly thirteen years now and certainly closer to

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Speaker 4: the time of the crash that Jordan caused and the

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Speaker 4: tragedy you know, where we're sort of fixated on this

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Speaker 4: idea of like one one choice on one thing can

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Speaker 4: lead to all of this impact, you know, particularly for

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Speaker 4: the the for.

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Speaker 3: His victims, his victims families, which.

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Speaker 4: You know, really keeps us going, you know, making sure

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Speaker 4: that this kind of thing doesn't happen again to the

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Speaker 4: extent that we can. But we've learned that, you know,

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Speaker 4: that idea of one choice, Yes, it was one choice,

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Speaker 4: a number of choices that Jordan made on that night.

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Speaker 4: But it's also really it's been revealed to us through

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Speaker 4: the work that we do with so many teens around

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Speaker 4: the country, that often these things are.

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Speaker 3: A series of choices.

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Speaker 4: These choices are made in a social ecosystem, or there's

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Speaker 4: patterns of decision making or recklessness that developed that sometimes

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Speaker 4: you just can't see as a parent, and sometimes you

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Speaker 4: just can't see yourself or inside your circle of friends.

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Speaker 4: So long answer to a short question, Yeah, we do

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Speaker 4: reflect on it. But you know what we've concluded, haven't we, Melissa,

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Speaker 4: is that it's just so often more than just that

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Speaker 4: one choice.

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Speaker 1: Well, I want to and we're going to deal very

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Speaker 1: deeply through the course of the podcast into the education

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Speaker 1: and the messaging that you're getting out from what happened

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Speaker 1: with the situation of Jordan's choices and the tragedy that

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Speaker 1: unfolded following on from those choices. And I think if anything,

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Speaker 1: that the messages that come out the people that have

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Speaker 1: been through what you've been through, and the victims and

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Speaker 1: the families of the people killed and the crash that

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Speaker 1: Jordan was driving, there's consequences for actions.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it It's interesting because the whole last thirteen years

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Speaker 2: since Jordan's crash, all of it has come down to

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Speaker 2: Jordan's choice. Everything that we've done from that day, from

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Speaker 2: that day to this day, has been around the choices

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Speaker 2: that Jordan made that night. So it's it can't be

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Speaker 2: underestimated what choice means, what one decision. Jordan made a

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Speaker 2: lot of stupid choices that night, and look at what happened,

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Speaker 2: look at the amount of families that were devastated. And

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Speaker 2: we think this all the time, don't we that we

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Speaker 2: will never seek sympathy for ourselves. People often share sympathy

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Speaker 2: with us, and we think the sympathy is reserved solely

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Speaker 2: for Jordan's victims and Jordan's victims families because of the

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Speaker 2: choices Jordan made, And he would never have intended to

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Speaker 2: harm anyone that night, the family that he loved the most,

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Speaker 2: let alone his victims and his victims families.

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Speaker 1: Yet through his choice, it saddens me and I get

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Speaker 1: the sense of all the times that you've spoken publicly

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Speaker 1: and that that you don't allow yourself to have sympathy

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Speaker 1: for yourself. I'm sitting here saying to you, I've seen

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Speaker 1: a lot of tragedy in life from people's actions and that,

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Speaker 1: But be kind to yourself too. You're a victim of

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Speaker 1: Jordan's choices as much as much as the other people are.

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Speaker 3: So I think.

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Speaker 4: We, of course we forgive Jordan, and for the millions

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Speaker 4: of reasons, how much we love him and miss him

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Speaker 4: and admired him as a person. I think there's a

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Speaker 4: difference between that concept of privately commemorating it and privately,

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Speaker 4: of course we forgive him, But it's a separate thing

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Speaker 4: to also own his culpability and own the choices that

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Speaker 4: he's made, and part of part of the journey with

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Speaker 4: carrying this weight and understanding how we can make use

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Speaker 4: of it in some sort of positive way. Is I

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Speaker 4: guess that separation between loving him and forgiving him and

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Speaker 4: privately commemorating him, but also being really sensitive about the

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Speaker 4: idea publicly that this is not, you know, a celebration

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Speaker 4: of Jordan's life. We don't do what we do with

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Speaker 4: you choose for any sort of healing for ourselves. What

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Speaker 4: we seek is change, Gary, Okay.

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Speaker 2: I think what people might not realize too is that

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Speaker 2: that very day Jordan made those choices, and he destroyed

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Speaker 2: so many his lives, so many lives. What he did

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Speaker 2: was he transferred his culpability onto the shoulders of the

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Speaker 2: people that he loved the most. And that from that

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Speaker 2: very day that I sat on the door and sorry,

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Speaker 2: I sat at home and we got the knock on

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Speaker 2: the door from the police, we felt that really heavy

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Speaker 2: weight of civic responsibility. Whilst all the information about Jordan's

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Speaker 2: crash wasn't available right then and there, we knew that

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Speaker 2: it would be his fault. So we instantly felt that

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Speaker 2: feeling of going, my goodness, we've got a son who

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Speaker 2: made choices that killed four people. I mean, what did

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Speaker 2: you do with those feelings of civic responsibility? And they

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Speaker 2: were instant, weren't they Like we were in the middle

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Speaker 2: of going what the heck is even happening, but also

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Speaker 2: feeling that weight instantly.

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Speaker 3: Mind you.

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Speaker 4: You know, it also should be said we didn't start

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Speaker 4: youtubes immediately. Of course, it took a number of years,

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Speaker 4: four years before we were even able to formulate the

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Speaker 4: idea that there should be something that we could do.

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Speaker 4: It will never be made right, but if just one

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Speaker 4: family can be can be spared, you know, the tragedy

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Speaker 4: that Jordan's victims families have been through and it won't.

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Speaker 4: Then any kind of effort we can put in at all,

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Speaker 4: small or large, would be well worth it.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're right, Just making the difference in one person's life,

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Speaker 1: or seeing one person in the right direction, can have

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Speaker 1: a ripple effect that you can't even comprehend how far

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Speaker 1: it reaches. Let's talk about Jordan for a bit. What's

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Speaker 1: your last memory of Jordan? Both of you, like the

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Speaker 1: last time before you got the horrendous knock at.

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Speaker 3: The door by the police.

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Speaker 1: What was your last contact and memory with.

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Speaker 2: Your Okay, so the Saturday before, sorry, the Sunday before

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Speaker 2: Jordan died, So six days before Jordan died, and it

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Speaker 2: was not far off Christmas, and Jordan and I went

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Speaker 2: shopping to buy Jordan's Christmas presents and we actually had

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Speaker 2: a really lovely day and it was so rare that

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Speaker 2: the two of us spent time together because you know,

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Speaker 2: like what eighteen year old wants to hang out with, ma'am? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So we had this really lovely day. We went down,

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Speaker 2: we had lunch together, we laughed a lot, was just

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Speaker 2: him and I and I actually tell this story during

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Speaker 2: part of the presentation that we do into schools, but

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Speaker 2: I was We were shopping in a particular store and

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Speaker 2: Jordan was just trying on everything going that we were

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Speaker 2: going to buy him for his Christmas presents. And while

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Speaker 2: he was just trying on his clothes, I went in

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Speaker 2: and I just tried on this dress just for fun.

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Speaker 2: And I came out and I said to Jordan, Hey,

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Speaker 2: what do you think of this dress?

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Speaker 3: Mate?

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Speaker 2: And he said to me, Mum, you look really pretty

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Speaker 2: in that. And I just remember thinking, oh, my goodness,

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Speaker 2: did I just get a compliment from my son. So

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Speaker 2: when amongst buying all of his stuff, I bought that

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Speaker 2: black dress, which happened to be the same black dress

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Speaker 2: that I wore nineteen days later at his funeral. So

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Speaker 2: that was my last memory, this fantastic that day that

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Speaker 2: I'd had with Jordan, shopping and having lunch and laughing,

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Speaker 2: and you know the fact that he gave me this

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Speaker 2: this compliment. And Jordan would never also leave home without

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Speaker 2: giving me a kiss goodbye, so it was, for all

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Speaker 2: intents and purposes, it was a really lovely day. So

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Speaker 2: I'm so grateful that that was our last moment together,

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Speaker 2: because of course he wasn't living at home at that time.

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Speaker 2: So he had moved to Brisbane for his carpentry apprenticeship.

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Speaker 2: But that event followed you and him going to Oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: Funny enough.

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Speaker 4: That's why we always say to the many hundreds and

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Speaker 4: hundreds of thousands of kids that we interact with these days,

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Speaker 4: you know, don't look at that door without exchanging I.

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Speaker 3: Love you, right, you hear it?

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Speaker 4: A lot, Yeah, people experienced these things. Yeah, but look,

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Speaker 4: it speaks to a broader issue about Jordan. But he

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Speaker 4: wasn't a lot different to any other team, you know.

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Speaker 4: And I guess we'll dig into this a little bit later,

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Speaker 4: but certainly on the Gold Coast. I know, I'm a

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Speaker 4: born and bred Gold Coaster. It was all you could

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Speaker 4: do to wear a shirt when you're a teenager. And

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Speaker 4: I can recall us. We were leaving, I think, to

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Speaker 4: see the latest James Bond movie at the time, you know,

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Speaker 4: and he's just walking out the door and his jeans

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Speaker 4: and he's you know, and he's four pluggers, no shirt,

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Speaker 4: very impressed with his own rig.

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Speaker 3: He's a muscular kid. He loved his.

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Speaker 4: Footy and I said, mate, could you least tuck a

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Speaker 4: T shirt into the back, you know, take one with you.

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 3: So that was our sort of the.

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Speaker 4: Last last time together, and of course we exchanged I

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Speaker 4: love yous as well, we always did.

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Speaker 2: I think there's still instance has really sum up Jordan.

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Speaker 3: Kind of, does you know.

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Speaker 4: And he was a very loving young man, very loving

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Speaker 4: to his younger sisters, his nieces, his cousins, his dad, sorry,

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Speaker 4: his cousins, his dad on stepdad. Had beautiful relationships with

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Speaker 4: everyone in his life.

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Speaker 1: It says a lot about that. That's your last memory

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Speaker 1: and Melissa, for you, that's that awkward transitional stage between

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Speaker 1: he's going to become a man and he won't be

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Speaker 1: out shopping with his mum much longer. And that's his

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Speaker 1: reference to you wearing the dress. You look pretty in it.

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Speaker 1: It's stepping in the manhood. He can make informed comments

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Speaker 1: like that, so special moments and the joy of going

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Speaker 1: to watch a film with your son and raiming him

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Speaker 1: in walking out, could you, like my normal comment, could

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Speaker 1: you put some shoes on that? Maybe you should wear

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Speaker 1: some shoes if you're going out that type of thing.

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Speaker 1: But look, I'm glad you can hang on to those

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Speaker 1: those memories because they must be so important to you.

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Speaker 3: The last of the contacts and memories and we've.

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Speaker 4: Got numerous, I mean obviously years, a lifetime of memories

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Speaker 4: with him. As we often say, don't he's no angel.

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Speaker 4: He's very much like any other team. But that's the point.

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Speaker 4: It's very much like any other team. So in so

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Speaker 4: many ways, like his life, our lives like really hold

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Speaker 4: up a mirror to almost any family or any teenager

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Speaker 4: in Australia.

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Speaker 1: It's the average teenager, average family, and this is what happens.

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Speaker 1: I'll bring you to the time that you found out

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Speaker 1: that Jordan had been involved in the car crash. Can

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Speaker 1: you can you talk us through that because it's something

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Speaker 1: that no one wants to experience. And I've been involved

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Speaker 1: from the police point of view, doing the knock on

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Speaker 1: the door and it's just horrendous. If you're comfortable, can

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Speaker 1: you tell us tell us about you when you found

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Speaker 1: out that about the crash.

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Speaker 2: So Jordan was living in Brisbane at the time, where

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Speaker 2: Gold Coast based, and Jordan had been at his work

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Speaker 2: Christmas party the evening beforehand, and it's got to be

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Speaker 2: said that his bosses did everything right at the end

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Speaker 2: of the party there or sent home in cabs and

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Speaker 2: for reasons that we don't know, and we'll never know.

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Speaker 2: Jordan decided to drive home from Brisbane to the Gold Coast.

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Speaker 2: We'd exchanged a couple of texts with Jordan that night.

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Speaker 2: He said he was having a fantastic It was like

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Speaker 2: his first ever work Christmas party. Yeah right, a passage. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He was a carpenter, apprentice carpenter. So he was with

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Speaker 2: all of his mates and they'd been out in the

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Speaker 2: hot sun digging holes and you know, so they're enjoying

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Speaker 2: a few beers and you know what you do at

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Speaker 2: a Christmas party. So he decided to drive home very

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Speaker 2: late that night. He was going to go, as we

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Speaker 2: found out later, he was going to go and stay

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Speaker 2: with a couple of mates down on the Gold Coast.

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Speaker 2: The next morning, we were none the wiser that Jordan

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Speaker 2: had driven down to the Gold Coast and we had

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Speaker 2: a knock at the We live in a three story

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Speaker 2: walk up, so we've got one of those airphones, so

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Speaker 2: we had a ring on our airphone and I answered

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Speaker 2: that airphone and it was a couple of police saying,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's the police and we're looking for Melissa Hayes.

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Speaker 2: And that was really interesting because I Hayes was my sorry,

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Speaker 2: my first married name, so it was unusual be called Melissa.

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Speaker 2: Hazel thought that's very odd. And I had to go

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Speaker 2: down to the stairs to let those offices in. And

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Speaker 2: as I was walking down those last flight of stairs

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Speaker 2: and I saw the two officers through that glass door,

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Speaker 2: I knew that I was about to be delivered news

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Speaker 2: that was going to shatter my family. When I opened

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Speaker 2: the door, they didn't tell me straight away what had happened.

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Speaker 2: They asked if they could come up. And I walked

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Speaker 2: in the door and I said to Peter, you know,

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Speaker 2: the police are here. And they were so good, Gary,

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Speaker 2: they were amazing. And they said, somebody that you want

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Speaker 2: to phone, is you know? And we said, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: what's happened? And then they delivered us that news that

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Speaker 2: there had been a crash on the M one and

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Speaker 2: that I forget the words, but it was something along

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Speaker 2: the lines of we believed that your son has been

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Speaker 2: fatally injured, and you know, you take it from there,

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Speaker 2: but that was just it made no sense at that

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Speaker 2: exact moment.

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Speaker 4: And look, of course, over the over the years and

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Speaker 4: it won't be news to you at all. Gary, We've

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Speaker 4: we've had the beautiful privilege to meet many many bereaved

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Speaker 4: parents over the years, so that how that plays out,

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Speaker 4: he has a real familiarity to it with every story,

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Speaker 4: as you'd know, mate. But on that morning, it took

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Speaker 4: some time for us to get the full picture as

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Speaker 4: to what was well, what had played out the night before,

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Speaker 4: And it was much later in that day that it

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Speaker 4: was revealed to us that, you know, there had been

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Speaker 4: the scale of the tragedy as as the day played

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Speaker 4: out and as the subsequent weeks and months played out

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Speaker 4: as well well.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine receiving that news initially it would be

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Speaker 1: hard to process, just coming to terms of what you've

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Speaker 1: been told from a knock on the door and your

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Speaker 1: your life changed dramatically, and the grief of the shock,

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Speaker 1: the not even accepting it. I think it's hard, and

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Speaker 1: I've seen people that know that it must be wrong.

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Speaker 1: That type of narrative. Narrative comes back. So what happened

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Speaker 1: after they told you? What did you actually do? What

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Speaker 1: was the next step?

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Speaker 2: The police were so amazing that the two police that

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Speaker 2: did that door knock, they were so caring they stayed

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Speaker 2: with us for good. I would say it was about

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Speaker 2: two hours to make sure that we're okay, and we

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Speaker 2: made the decision well, actually I had a girlfriend staying

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Speaker 2: with me, My best friend was there that night, and

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Speaker 2: I had my daughter, my youngest daughter, who was four

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Speaker 2: at the time, at home, and we made a decision

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Speaker 2: that we wanted to go to the police station and

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Speaker 2: meet up with those first responding offices. We wanted to

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Speaker 2: understand a little bit more about what had happened in

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Speaker 2: but we were in so much shock, I don't even

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Speaker 2: know quite how to put it into words. So my

334
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Speaker 2: friend that was staying there, she minded my four year old,

335
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Speaker 2: our four year old daughter, and we just drove straight

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Speaker 2: to the police station and we were there with the

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Speaker 2: first responding officers. And I'll never forget it because there

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Speaker 2: was a young man there who look he looked like

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Speaker 2: he was maybe twenty years old, something like they look

340
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Speaker 2: so young and to think that, you know, that was

341
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Speaker 2: probably his first big crash scene that he had been

342
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Speaker 2: to it it's never lost. I mean, thank you so

343
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Speaker 2: much for the work that you do, because I think

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Speaker 2: about what that scene must have looked like to the

345
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Speaker 2: many police ambos and fieries, the undertakers, all those people

346
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Speaker 2: that were there that night to see this young man,

347
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Speaker 2: to go, My goodness, that would have been probably your

348
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Speaker 2: first big horrendous event that you've turned up to. And

349
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Speaker 2: my heart breaks thinking, you know what he saw that night,

350
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Speaker 2: what you all see, what you all go through again,

351
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Speaker 2: bringing it back to someone's choices, all because of Jordan's choice.

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Speaker 2: That crash was preventable, It should never have happened.

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Speaker 1: Well, the fact that you guys are sitting here and

354
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Speaker 1: talking about your concern for other people when you're going

355
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Speaker 1: through that, I think that says a lot about the

356
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Speaker 1: type of people you are in the environment that Jordan

357
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Speaker 1: would have been raised in. You've found out that it

358
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Speaker 1: was a crash, hard to find out more details of

359
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,400
Speaker 1: the crash. When did the when did the i'll call

360
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,479
Speaker 1: it the realization come to the fact that it was

361
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Speaker 1: Jordan's actions that caused the crash. When when did you

362
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:12,960
Speaker 1: start to come to terms with that?

363
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,560
Speaker 2: I think a bit of a blur, Gary, But we

364
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 2: knew parts of it straight away. We knew that he'd

365
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,720
Speaker 2: hit the back of the car, so that part was

366
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Speaker 2: going to be his fault. We knew that he'd been

367
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Speaker 2: drinking the night before because it exchanged a couple of

368
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,479
Speaker 2: texts with us. But as the cannabis in his system

369
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Speaker 2: and the speed you know, that stuff came out much

370
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Speaker 2: later down the track.

371
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Speaker 4: So we were given advice, and I think pretty good

372
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Speaker 4: advice to just not look at the media. I guess

373
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Speaker 4: because of me especially. It was it was very news

374
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:52,240
Speaker 4: worthy event least the Queensland's major arterial shouting both directions

375
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Speaker 4: for hours and hours a couple of weeks before Christmas,

376
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Speaker 4: so it took a while for us to to get

377
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,160
Speaker 4: all of the detail out. Of course, during that first

378
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 4: period of time, naturally we've got to get around and

379
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 4: let how various other relatives know. And the other major

380
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:15,400
Speaker 4: consideration is the feelings for all of everyone affected, all

381
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,320
Speaker 4: of the families, all of everyone that the community at large.

382
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Speaker 1: You're taking on that all that grief.

383
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, but of course our two daughters, Jordan's little sisters,

384
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Speaker 4: who were at the time four and eleven respectively, ten

385
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,600
Speaker 4: sorry respectively, we really just had to keep putting one

386
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Speaker 4: foot in front of the other and just try to

387
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Speaker 4: take one day literally, as Melissa says, one sunset at

388
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Speaker 4: a time.

389
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Speaker 1: How did Jordan's sisters take the news and how did

390
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:46,120
Speaker 1: you break it.

391
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 4: To the kitty, our youngest. It's kind of a little

392
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Speaker 4: too young to completely understand it.

393
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,400
Speaker 2: She was there and saw it, she was there when

394
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Speaker 2: the police arrived.

395
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Speaker 4: Yeah, So for her it was more of a she

396
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 4: wasn't stricken with the guilt, sorry, the grief immediately, yeah,

397
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 4: but rather just obviously upset because because of just the

398
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 4: visceral feelings of the emotion.

399
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 2: That she was really concerned to about us as a

400
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 2: little fought through the four year old's eyes. She didn't

401
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 2: quite conceptualize what was going on. You can imagine what

402
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 2: mum and dad look like, so she felt from watching

403
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,959
Speaker 2: what my mum and dad are going through. Montana was

404
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 2: staying with her father the night that Jordan had his

405
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 2: crash and I had to ring Montana's father and it

406
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 2: was actually Montana's father that had to break the news

407
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 2: to her, and he told me later through his tears

408
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 2: that she just cried, you know, not brother, No, please,

409
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 2: please please not brother. So it was a shock for her.

410
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,199
Speaker 2: She was old enough to understand what it meant that

411
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 2: Jordan had died, that he'd had a car crash. Kitty

412
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 2: couldn't conceptualize that. She just watched what was going on

413
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 2: with mum and dad.

414
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: I'm silent because I'm just trying to comprehend the ripple

415
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: effect through the family and then, as you said, contacting

416
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 1: other family members and friends, relatives. It's just, yeah, it's ongoing.

417
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: How did it change when you're found out and you

418
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 1: said it was gradual that you're getting further information. You

419
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 1: found out that the car that Jordan was driving crashed

420
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 1: into a parked car, So okay, he was a driver

421
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 1: at fault, you would say, into a park car. He'd

422
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 1: been drinking, had cannavais in his system.

423
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 2: That we didn't fund out a bit later. I remember,

424
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: about seven weeks after Jordan died, I was just doing

425
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 2: a normal trip to the shopping center to do my

426
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 2: food shopping, and I'd been by the post office and

427
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 2: I had a letter from the I think it was

428
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 2: the Coroner's office. That was unusual in itself to be

429
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: opening a letter from them, and it was Jordan's. It

430
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 2: wasn't his death certificate, but it was his I can't

431
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 2: think of the word for it, toxicology, toxicology report. It

432
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 2: was all the things, and that's what I noticed, that

433
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 2: he'd had cannabis in his system. I remember sitting in

434
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 2: the shopping center in my car in the car park

435
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 2: and I just burst into tears, thinking, oh my goodness,

436
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: so he hit the back of a car. I didn't

437
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 2: know it was speeding doing approximate one hundred and forty

438
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 2: two kilometers at the time. I knew he had alcohol

439
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 2: in his system, and I knew he hit the back

440
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 2: of the car. So it was like another thing, Oh

441
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 2: my goodness, he's got cannabis in his system. And Jordan

442
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 2: wasn't a big drinker, nor was he a habitual smoker.

443
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: And you could be forgiven from looking at the news

444
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: and thinking that was the sort of kid that he was.

445
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 2: I mean, he wasn't a saint, but he wasn't an habitual.

446
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 4: By the way, we didn't user we did we didn't

447
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 4: know that he smoked weed.

448
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: And we're not stupid.

449
00:23:54,680 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 3: Well, well I can say hate you too. Yeahs, you

450
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 3: look at your kids.

451
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: You don't know you know what you did when you.

452
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 2: At that age, just don't know what you don't know.

453
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 2: As parents, you just don't know what you.

454
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 4: Don't look, no doubt. Well, we'll we'll talk about this

455
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 4: as the conversation unfolds, but it does speak to the

456
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 4: to you know what you reflect on in your parenting.

457
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 4: We always say this when when something like this unfolds,

458
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 4: naturally you go back through it is a reflection on

459
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 4: your parenting, like it or not, and.

460
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 3: It's a visceral fear.

461
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 2: We say this all the time to say, isn't it

462
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 2: we're hunting to hear.

463
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 4: We know logically that we didn't cause Jordan's crash, We're

464
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 4: not accountable for what he did. But in your gut

465
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 4: you as a parent, obviously you're going to go back

466
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 4: through what could have I done? What didn't I know?

467
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 4: What could we have done?

468
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: In an anguish of being the parents?

469
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 3: Isn't What is?

470
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: It is responsibilities that can't come with it. And I

471
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 1: I've heard you guys talk and say that Jordan would

472
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: be mortified about the pain that he's caused.

473
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 2: So many, so many absolutely horrified to know what he's done,

474
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: not only to the people that he loved the most,

475
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 2: his two little sisters, but what he's done the wider

476
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: scope of what he did, the amount of lives that

477
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 2: he affected, and that he ruined, absolutely ruined for generations

478
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: to come.

479
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: There's a lot said about the you know, we allow

480
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: kids that aiding to drink and that they're also allowed

481
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 1: to have cars, and like putting the two together. And

482
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: then I add into the mix that first Christmas party

483
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 1: where you treat it as an adult. You're out there

484
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 1: with your work colleagues. You know you've come from a student.

485
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: There's a whole lot of things that combine that add

486
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: up to the potential to make those stupid decisions at

487
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: the time the funeral. How long did it take before

488
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: before you could bury Jordan.

489
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 3: Gary, we were.

490
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 4: We didn't have our service for Jordan until after the

491
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 4: poor other kids were laid to rest, So that happened

492
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 4: maybe six weeks. I want to say, Melissa, I can't

493
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 4: remember down the line.

494
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 3: But really that that whole.

495
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 4: Period of time is quite a blur. But we know

496
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 4: we commemorated him as privately as we could.

497
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 2: I remember sitting with my father in the week that

498
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 2: had happened, and I was saying to Dad, because as

499
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: a father watching his daughter go through that not only

500
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: had he lost his grandson, but he was watching his

501
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: his daughter, watching her lose her son. And I remember

502
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: sitting there with Dad and he was saying, do you

503
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 2: want me to help with some funeral arrangements? I said, Dad,

504
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 2: how do you have a funeral for someone who's just

505
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 2: killed four people? You know, a funeral is obstensibly about

506
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,479
Speaker 2: celebrating some life. When he killed those four people, he

507
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: lost the right for us to go out and celebrate him.

508
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 2: How do you celebrate your son who, on his way

509
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 2: out kills four people. And it was again, they were

510
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: visceral feelings of just going, what do you do here?

511
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: And there was no way we were going to go

512
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: out and have this big celebration for him.

513
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 4: Which you know, and we've got to come back to this.

514
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 4: I guess we discussed it earlier.

515
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 3: We love him.

516
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 4: It's not that we've had people kind of in the

517
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 4: past be a bit confronted by the fact that we

518
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 4: own his culpability and what he did. And like I say,

519
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 4: that's different to not loving him and missing him desperately

520
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 4: and forgiving him, like us forgiving him. But we understand

521
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 4: or other people may not. And that speaks to the

522
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 4: whole notion of I guess those arrangements in the months

523
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 4: after the crash, all.

524
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: Those years ago, so confronting the whole situation. So it

525
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: was a conscious decision that you guys made that you

526
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: weren't going to lay to rest Jordan until after the

527
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 1: four victims of.

528
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: The So remembering that Jordan's father also played a partner here.

529
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: Jordan's father wanted to have a funeral, so I just said,

530
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 2: you do your thing. I just feel like it's inappropriate

531
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: for me. I don't feel like we should be. We'll

532
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: do something up, something very quiet, something very personal afterwards.

533
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 2: So there was a funeral service for Jordan. It was

534
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: nineteen days I think after he died. We did go

535
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: to that, but we didn't open it up to our

536
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: widest circle to attend. I just took my immediate family,

537
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 2: my nieces and nephews, and that was it. I just

538
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: I just felt like it was.

539
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 4: In any case, suffice to say, it was just a

540
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 4: fraud scenario for every goness.

541
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 2: We're also in such a blur too, like even that

542
00:28:58,520 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: whole period of just going.

543
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 4: What do you do?

544
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: What do you do with all of this?

545
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: But again.

546
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 4: We're a stud to be asking the questions, you know,

547
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 4: and digging into our feelings, but in answering them, you know,

548
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 4: we need to be very intentional about saying none of

549
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 4: this is to seek sympathy for ourselves, you know, like

550
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 4: these are feelings that we'd feel, anyone would feel, but

551
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 4: we're not saying we're not saying, poor us. We rarely

552
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 4: talk about this, so the good questions to ask us

553
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 4: and confronting questions to ask us. But like I keep saying, our.

554
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 3: What our.

555
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 4: Even transporting ourselves back? You know, nearly thirteen years Even

556
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 4: at that time, we were aware that there are two separate

557
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 4: issues at play, you know.

558
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: That's what, like I said at the start of the podcast,

559
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: I've been thinking long and hard about how to have

560
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: the discussion and fully comprehend what you guys have gone through,

561
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: and it was so difficult on so many different layers.

562
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: It's when I say easier, it's probably the wrong choice

563
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: of words. But to make a decision if the death

564
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: was someone else's fault, you can channel channel your anger there,

565
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: or you can accept it was an accident and it's

566
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: a fate. Powers greater greater than us have made the decision.

567
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: But there's so many things that you're you're going through.

568
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 2: Did you reach layers of complexity?

569
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: Did you reach out to the other families?

570
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 4: We were advised not to, probably for reasons that you

571
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,959
Speaker 4: understand as a as a as a former police person.

572
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 4: So no, not not at that time, under advice.

573
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: That was really tricky too. Like all I wanted to

574
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: do was to reach out to those families and say

575
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 2: I am so sorry what my son did. That was

576
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: hard not to but we always took that advice from

577
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: the police, and that was one of the first things

578
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: that I asked anyone in the services, because I always

579
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: feel like, am I doing the right thing? Should I

580
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: be reaching out? And everybody always said do not. It's

581
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: not up to you to reach out to them to

582
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: make yourself feel better. They may not want to hear

583
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: from you. And that was hard. That was really hard.

584
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 4: And of course all of those dynamics continue to be challenging,

585
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 4: and all we can do with them is to put

586
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 4: our hands on our hearts and just say we are

587
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 4: doing everything we can to try and ensure that no

588
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 4: family goes through anything like this again if we can

589
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 4: do anything about it with what we've experienced, and I

590
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 4: guess we'll get into it later, but you choose is

591
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 4: working and if it wasn't, we wouldn't be doing it.

592
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 4: Just explain because we were talking about it.

593
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: But you choose. That's part of the non of it advocacy.

594
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: You've gotten the training or educating people on what you've

595
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: been through to try and prevent this type of thing happening.

596
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: When did you find out the full circumstances You talked

597
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: about the toxicology report coming through, Was there a coronial inquest?

598
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: And did you attend there were a inquest?

599
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: And the coronial inquest was three years later, so that's

600
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: when all the full details came out. We chose not

601
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: to attend that, and we only found out only a

602
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: few days before. It took so long for that report.

603
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: So Peter was overseas for work at the time, and

604
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: I found out maybe about four days before the coronial

605
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: inquest was on, and I spoke to the coroner and

606
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: myself and I just said, I don't think I can come.

607
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: It was really confronting to know that I would be

608
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: there with the families, the families of those people that

609
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: children killed, and I knew that he wasn't there to

610
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 2: own up to what he did.

611
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 3: All of that would.

612
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: Fallen to me. So I spoke to the coroner and

613
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: I asked me if he could send me the forensic

614
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 2: crash report. I wanted to know exactly what happened. I

615
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,479
Speaker 2: felt like I owed it to Jordan's victims, to Jordan's

616
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: victim's families, to understand everything that that meant. So I

617
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: got the coronial sorry, the yeah, the forensic Kresh report

618
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: right at the time the inquest was going on, and

619
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 2: it was really it was a really tricky time because

620
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: it was all over the news. Again, it was only

621
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: three years down the track, and it was just it

622
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 2: was crazy. And I remember sitting down one night and

623
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: I read that report cover to cover, like I read

624
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,959
Speaker 2: the whole thing, and it was confronting an ye. I

625
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: just cried and cried thinking about it, and I sort

626
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: of regret now that I didn't have the courage to

627
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: go to that coronial inquest. Had I gone, maybe I

628
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: might have regretted going it. But you know, like, where

629
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: is the manual that you get when your son kills

630
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: four people? The manual that you can follow to go,

631
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: this is what you do when your son kills four people?

632
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 2: One doesn't exist.

633
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: Sadly, it doesn't exist, and it's there for other than

634
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: a few people. It's uncharted territory.

635
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: It's also something that we don't really talk about a

636
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: lot those you know, it's it's even giving me a

637
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 2: little heart palpitations to even talk about it publicly. It's

638
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 2: something that we keep very very private.

639
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: To rebuild yourself from what's happened from the start, I

640
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: would my observations, and I think it's what you've said.

641
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: Your life from that point in time when you found

642
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: out about the crash has changed so dramatically that you

643
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: could never envisage that this is what your life would

644
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: be about your children, your family. Are you still coping like?

645
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: Is it? I would imagine each days? And you said,

646
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: one foot step stepping forward for your children? Is that

647
00:34:58,640 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: what kept you going?

648
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 4: Certainly in the early days here, we pretty quickly figured

649
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 4: out that there wasn't healing involved in any of this,

650
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 4: and that if we were seeking to put the weight

651
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 4: of grief and the visceral feelings of culpability down, or

652
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 4: it was some form of process that you recovered from,

653
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 4: I think that was misguided in our case at least.

654
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 4: And I think from the time that we realized that, look,

655
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 4: we need, we've got to weight to carry.

656
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 3: What does it mean?

657
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 4: How do we assist each other to carry it together?

658
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 4: And how do we carry it with some sort of

659
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 4: sense of purpose and meaning? Is there any sort of

660
00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 4: grace or peace anywhere in this we were seeking it?

661
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 3: We sawt it.

662
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 4: But from the time we realized that they putting it

663
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 4: down is not going to work. We got to understand

664
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 4: how to carry.

665
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 3: This, okay, So to make it.

666
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: You can't put that in the compartment and just step

667
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: aside from it and not open not open it. Was

668
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: there any advice or how Quite often through homicide and

669
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: where deaths have occurred in tragic and sudden circumstances, the

670
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: people around the families of the victim or the person

671
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: who has died don't know how to meet with you.

672
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 1: And I've had families of murdered victims saying that close

673
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,280
Speaker 1: friends would avoid them because they don't know what to say.

674
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: People just didn't know how to react or just pretend

675
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: it didn't happen and have a conversation. What were the

676
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: things that helped you the most, the way that people

677
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: reacted around you and supported you.

678
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 4: I think, well, would you like to I guess I'll

679
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 4: go In the first instance, for us, it was and

680
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 4: we say the same things as we were look at

681
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 4: each other.

682
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 3: We know what we're going to say.

683
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 4: People want to solve They want to make you feel better,

684
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 4: and that's beautiful. You don't want them to understand, do you, Gary?

685
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 3: When understand that?

686
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 4: So when people say to you, I could never understand

687
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 4: how you could feel you've got to go good. I

688
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 4: never want you to understand how how it feels. The

689
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 4: most effective support that we've got and that we still

690
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 4: get and that we'll always get is just the simplicity

691
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 4: of just love. Solutions, not so much you can't turn

692
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 4: back the clock. Love and support is what has always

693
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 4: been the most effective for us, and it's certainly uplifted

694
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 4: us and enabled us to sort of move on to

695
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 4: something that might be a positive out of all this.

696
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 4: So yeah, the simplest thing, okay, is that that you

697
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 4: share that view. Well.

698
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: I always think of the one the story that comes

699
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: to mind in the very early days and a lot

700
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 2: of people, you know, would over hug me and they

701
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: would be so sad and for me, and I'd be like, oh,

702
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 2: you just got to leave me alone, Like who's the

703
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: hug for you or for me? And in those early days,

704
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: a lot of people would just be like, you know,

705
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: how how are you not thinking? Honeybody think I am?

706
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: You know, And it was such an insulting question. I

707
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: was like, why would you ask me that? And I

708
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: was at my daughter's creation at the gym that I

709
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 2: used to go to at the time, and she was

710
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 2: a much you know, she's maybe in her late seventies,

711
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 2: I guess. And she came up to you one day

712
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: and she just you know, she put a hand on

713
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: her shoulder and she gave me a squeeze and she

714
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 2: said to me, how are you today? And I remember thinking,

715
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 2: thank you for saying today that one word, because yesterday

716
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: I was absolutely, you know, atrocious. Today I'm feeling okay.

717
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 2: So thanks for letting me or thanks for letting me

718
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 2: off the hook that you know, it's just about today.

719
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 2: And I have said right from the very day that

720
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: Jordan died. You know, we only got through one sunset

721
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 2: at a time, so the idea was to get through today, right,

722
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,479
Speaker 2: there's another sunset radio tomorrow. We'll just get through to

723
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 2: tomorrow's sunset. And a lot of people, you know, wanted

724
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 2: to involve themselves in what was going on. And I

725
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: am so grateful that this man has such a so

726
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: to point you pointing it.

727
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: That's a audio, there is video, but there's this man.

728
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,439
Speaker 2: This man, he has such an emotional high emotional IQ.

729
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 2: So during this period he instinctively knew what to do

730
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: to protect his family. Now, it might not work for

731
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: someone else's family. But we became very, very insular. We

732
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 2: sort of reached out to everyone saying, just give us time. Please,

733
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: don't phone, don't drop over flowers, don't knock on the door.

734
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 2: We just need to sit and be We need to

735
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 2: sit in this and understand it. So we were very

736
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: much we didn't include people in the process. We asked

737
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 2: people to give us a lot of time. We also

738
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: had the girls, so and again, where's the manual? You know?

739
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 3: Funny funny enough.

740
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 4: Just being listening to your many podcasts, Gary, you probably

741
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 4: I know that I can recall hearing this before, you know,

742
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 4: and we certainly hear it from other bereaved people or

743
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 4: other people that are dealing with dealt with tragedy.

744
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 3: Is that.

745
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 4: The next steps in your life aren't necessarily linear. Yeah,

746
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 4: like you're not necessarily hanging around holding hands, going right.

747
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 4: We're all experiencing this together. There's a way you deal

748
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 4: with losing Uncle Clary at ninety, you know, and then

749
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 4: celebrating a beautiful, wishful life, and there's all the other

750
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 4: there's the other things, you know, and it's not always

751
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 4: this neat sort of the square peg in a square

752
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 4: hole that one size fits everything.

753
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 3: In terms of how.

754
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 4: You go on and what next steps look like and

755
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 4: all that. And I mean we might live another thirty

756
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 4: years or forty years and still not have the answers.

757
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 4: And I think giving or letting go of the idea

758
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 4: that you have to heal and you have to be

759
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 4: well and you have to demonstrate to the world that

760
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 4: you're on this pathway to recovery. It's a little bit

761
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 4: of pressure you don't need, I can imagine.

762
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: And you've raised some points that made me think about

763
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: you come up, you give someone a cuddle, and yeah,

764
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: are you cuddling for yourself or you've cuddling to give

765
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: me the comfort there. I like what you just said there,

766
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, if we're going to get

767
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: messages across and we are in this podcast because I

768
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: think it's inspirational what you've guys, how you've processed this

769
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: and steered it in a positive direction in terms of

770
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: education and letting people learn from what happened in your situation.

771
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: But I love that how are you feeling today? Because

772
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: that's a good thing, because you know, we've all had

773
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: situations where people come up and want to comfort you

774
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: or whatever.

775
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 3: How are you?

776
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: How the fuck do you think I am.

777
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 3: That's the attitude.

778
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: But how are you today? It's very simple. Look, I'm

779
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: just doing a bit tough today. Tomorrow might be better,

780
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: or you know, I'm feeling great today, but who knows.

781
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: It's a simple question.

782
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 2: Very same lady the first time I saw her after

783
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 2: it happened, and again I guess this is the wisdom

784
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 2: that you get or that becomes you as you get older.

785
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: But she came up to his sweetest thing, and she

786
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: just again just lightly popped a hand on my shoulder,

787
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 2: and she said, there are just no words, so I'm

788
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 2: not going to say anything. And I remember thinking, thank you,

789
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 2: because that's the exact thing that I want to hear.

790
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 2: There are no words. So people often ask me for

791
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: grief advice, which I think, oh my goodness, just because

792
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 2: I've gone through grief doesn't mean you know that we

793
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 2: are grief experts. And you can't compare grief. You can't

794
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 2: compare my grief in someone else's grief. And I I

795
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 2: had an emotionally intelligent husband, I had young girls that

796
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 2: I had to keep getting up every morning and getting

797
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: them to school. Kitty was still at home at that stage.

798
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 2: I worked at that time I had to keep functioning.

799
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: Some people don't have that. Some people. I had a

800
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 2: flexible job, I had a husband, We we have a

801
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 2: lovely we had a beautiful life beforehand. So the chaos

802
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: that Jordan created, thank goodness, we had this really yeah,

803
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 2: some underpinning and a strong foundation to carry us through

804
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 2: something that we would have never ever thought we would

805
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 2: ever be able to survive.

806
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 3: Let alone.

807
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: You know, turn it into too what we're doing around

808
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: the country.

809
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 3: There's a few different things to you to your question. Yeah, it's.

810
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 4: You can see we've we've met many, many bereaved parents

811
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,280
Speaker 4: on this on this journey, and that sounds really morbid,

812
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 4: but boy, you meet some beautiful, beautiful people who have

813
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 4: experienced their own version, and everyone does of the bottom

814
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 4: of the barrel.

815
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 3: So as you go through that, and.

816
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 4: Even I'm looking at you, Gary, knowing what your experience

817
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 4: in life is, knowing that in time, you develop a

818
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 4: deep respect for the fact that everyone's got their version.

819
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 4: You're getting their bumps splintered by the bottom of the barrel, right,

820
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 4: and everyone responds in a different way. And I think

821
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 4: it increases, or it increased our empathy in general, because

822
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 4: while you're dealing with your own kind of narrow version

823
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 4: of what that looks like. Certainly early in the piece,

824
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 4: you know, part of going on is to sort of

825
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 4: broaden that focus and go. It does tell you that

826
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 4: the world is carrying a lot of pain out there

827
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 4: that you're not necessarily seeing, you know so, and that

828
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 4: that can manifest itself in so many different ways. Like

829
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 4: we we are blessed because if we didn't handle this

830
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 4: entire set of circumstances in a way that was complement

831
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 4: to each other, you can see how these things would.

832
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 3: Just destroy put just tear people.

833
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 4: Apart it you weren't on the same page. The other

834
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,760
Speaker 4: side of that same coin is that having gone through

835
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 4: that together. I often say this, and I'm sorry for

836
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 4: repeating myself, sweetheart, but it's one thing to love each other.

837
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 4: It's something else altogether to admire them, and that's profound.

838
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: You better get the tissues, so those steps, and.

839
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 4: It's taken a while to actually understand that feeling and

840
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 4: being able to articulate it, because we often get asked,

841
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 4: how do you even to what the work that we

842
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 4: do today all these years after it can be depleting

843
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 4: it It has to be you have to be vulnerable

844
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 4: to do it.

845
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,479
Speaker 1: Right, you're giving you, you're coming on here. You're talking

846
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: about some very deep emotions.

847
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 2: Don't get us wrong, we've had some very very dark

848
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: but we've done it to get we look like we're

849
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: strong and brave and all those things. But it's been

850
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 2: a journey to get here.

851
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 4: But I guess what I'm saying is that if you

852
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 4: find a way of filling each other's tank as much

853
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 4: as it gets depleted, and you're doing that for each

854
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 4: other and it's complementary, including our daughters and the rest

855
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 4: of our family being able to do that, you can

856
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 4: make sense of something that literally doesn't make sense, as

857
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 4: you correctly pointed out going all the way back.

858
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: And I've seen family situations and couples caught up in

859
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: tragedy that life dishes out, and quite often that it

860
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: might be You'll turn to be the strong one there

861
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: because I need the comfort, and then you can reverse roles.

862
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: And they're the ones, my observations there, the ones that

863
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 1: seem to be able to work, because you can't both

864
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: be strong every day like someone's going to have a

865
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: down day. But if you've got a partner that's emotionally

866
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: attuned and capable of supporting when you're down and switching it.

867
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 1: I think the complexities of what you guys have gone

868
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,760
Speaker 1: through is it's not just grief. If you carry shame,

869
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: you carry regret and a whole range of very powerful emotions.

870
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: So it must have been so difficult navigating your way

871
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: a way through all that.

872
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 2: And thank goodness, Peter has such a high emotional intelligence.

873
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: Had I been you do, don't get cranky. That's going

874
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 2: to say if you keep looking like we're going to

875
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 2: have the next stop.

876
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: It yes, no, he is.

877
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: That really helped our family get through that. Peter knew

878
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 2: what to do to protect his family. I'm so grateful

879
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 2: that I would not be the woman that I am.

880
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 2: I would not have been able to do the part

881
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 2: of you choose that I do had Peter not been

882
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 2: able to steer us in those very very early days.

883
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 2: Same with my girls. It's why my girls are doing

884
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 2: so well. We had the foundation, but then Peter instinctively knew.

885
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: And it's probably that you know that man protector feeling

886
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 2: inside of you and actually that man protect a feeling

887
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 2: that you had for your families. It's what's eked into

888
00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 2: YouTube that's really at the bottom, at the end of

889
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 2: the day, what you choose. It's all about. It's all

890
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 2: about how do you protect the people that you love.

891
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: It makes sense. Where do you think you learned that

892
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,879
Speaker 1: from Peter? Where did do you think those characteristics were

893
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: instilled in you?

894
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 3: Gary?

895
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 2: I appreciate the compliment I was going to say without

896
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 2: sounding like Wenka.

897
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's true. I'm glad you see that, thank you.

898
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 4: But for me, I learned that simply because for many

899
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 4: years in my life I was a boy until I

900
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 4: had a boy to raise. I met Melissa in my

901
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 4: mid thirties. Melissa had two kids yep, one very young

902
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 4: kid and Jordan, who was a little bit older, and

903
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 4: I realized, having met Melissa with the two kids, just

904
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 4: exactly what.

905
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 3: Was missing in my life.

906
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 4: And as cliche as this is, I was just a

907
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 4: lion walking around the savannah without a pride.

908
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,760
Speaker 3: I like the description, I just didn't.

909
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 4: I had a lot gone for me. I was financially

910
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 4: in a good spot and career and everything was good.

911
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 4: Some's missing, And the missing thing became so apparent to

912
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 4: me the second that I had kids to father.

913
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 3: And that's the answer to the question.

914
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 4: There's there's nothing complicated in my background or anything like that,

915
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 4: other than the fact that that that instinct that was

916
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 4: in me that was just uneven detectable at the time,

917
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 4: let alone unrequired, was just sitting in there. And you're right,

918
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 4: that level of cops.

919
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 3: That that level of.

920
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 4: That kind of dynamic does eke its way through into

921
00:49:54,360 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 4: the philosophies that were being taught by kids. Yeah, it

922
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 4: it's I think there's a whole there's a lot of

923
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 4: us out there that have got that instinct. And you

924
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 4: know it comes out in many different ways, doesn't it.

925
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,879
Speaker 1: Well, it comes out when it has to come out,

926
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: and in your situation that it was make or break.

927
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: When the situation you're confronted with it, it could have

928
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: broken you and it sort of made you the situation.

929
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 1: So you're we're giving all the compliments to Peter at

930
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 1: this stage, but you've you've hung in there and you're

931
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: you're been strong all the way through. Where where did

932
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,479
Speaker 1: that come from? And you can't say it was all Peter?

933
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 1: I let you get away of that.

934
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 3: That's right, Definitely wasn't it.

935
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 2: The strong part of me comes from that weight of

936
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 2: civic responsibility that bears down on my shoulders. I can

937
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 2: justify why Jordan died that night, and I was sitting

938
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 2: with my cousin when I come down to do presentation,

939
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 2: and so I often go and stay with my beautiful cousins.

940
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: And she said to me one night, if we're all

941
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 2: sitting in a circle, and we all threw our problems

942
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 2: into the center, we'd probably take out our own problems.

943
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: And I was thinking, you're absolutely right. Part of why

944
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 2: where I speak for myself, part of why I feel

945
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 2: like I'm able to go on, is that I can

946
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: justify what Jordan. I can justify Jordan dying, He drank, drove,

947
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: he drug drove, he spared. What do you expect, you know,

948
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: if you're gonna do those sort of things where you

949
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 2: can't go, oh, do you know why? God, why did

950
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 2: this happen? Whereas for someone like Jordan's victims, I can't

951
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 2: justify what happened to those kids. They were five kids

952
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 2: sitting in a car, broken down car, minding their own business,

953
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 2: and my son drunk stoned, speeding, hit the back of

954
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 2: that car and killed four of those kids. He left

955
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 2: a little girl orphaned that night. There was two young

956
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 2: parents in that car, you know, in the six year

957
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 2: old l play that was left with severe boons and trauma.

958
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,240
Speaker 2: So part of that strength that I've got is thinking

959
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: Jordan doesn't deserve. This is going to sound really harsh

960
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 2: and really horrible. This is through the lens of I

961
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:19,720
Speaker 2: loved Jordan, but this is what goes through me. Deserve

962
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 2: is not the right word. But when you act like

963
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 2: Jordan did that night, what do you expect? You know,

964
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 2: I can justify it, But for those those other young adults,

965
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 2: I can't justify that. And that's the strength that I

966
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 2: carry to go if there is one thing that I

967
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 2: can do to inspire or influence, or that we can

968
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 2: do to inspire or influence just one team to not

969
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 2: make a choice that might destroy the lives of the

970
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 2: families like Jordan destroyed the life of those victims and

971
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 2: those victims families. All of my strength comes from that.

972
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 2: Hand on heart. That is what drives me. And there's

973
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: no way we would put ourselves through this if we

974
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 2: didn't think that what we were doing made an impact.

975
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 2: And hand on heart, we know that it is.

976
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: We know.

977
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: I hear it in the conversations that I have with

978
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: young teens around the country. In a straight after a presentation. Oh,

979
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 2: I have so many kids up. It's almost like come

980
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 2: up afterwards, and it's like having a confessional because what

981
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 2: they've done is They've related to Jordan's behavior, so they

982
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 2: can see themselves in Jordan. And whilst I'm holding up

983
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: a mirror, what I'm doing is I'm not showing them

984
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,479
Speaker 2: my family. I'm showing them their family. So they're sitting

985
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 2: there going, well, goodness, I do that, I do that

986
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 2: I do. That could be my mum, that could be

987
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 2: my little sister. I show footage of Montana speaking at

988
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 2: Jordan's memorial, and it gets them to deeply, deeply reflect

989
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: about what they're doing. And I think that's the magic

990
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 2: dust of Youtobe is that I loath to think of

991
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 2: myself an as an educator, and I'm using air commas here.

992
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 2: The idea behind everything that we do is when one

993
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 2: of those teens walks out of our program, they've arrived

994
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 2: at conclusions about themselves, about their mates, about their social ecosystem,

995
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: and that that role that they play inside that social

996
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 2: ecosystem around protection, around leadership. What is it am I

997
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 2: leading negatively? Is this a positive thing that I'm doing

998
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 2: or is it a negative thing? So they're not being

999
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 2: taught anything they've arrived at the conclusions for themselves, and

1000
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 2: that again, that's what inspires me and gives me the strength,

1001
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 2: gives us the strength to just keep on keeping on.

1002
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 2: Just one kid, Gary, just one kid, and all of

1003
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 2: it will have been worthwhile.

1004
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, I can see why what you're doing is

1005
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,760
Speaker 1: making a difference. And I think people that have listened

1006
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: to our chat just at this point in time get

1007
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: the depth of where it's coming from, on what you're

1008
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: talking about. And I think that was important for us

1009
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,439
Speaker 1: to set up the sort of platform because in part

1010
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 1: two we'll take a break now, but in part two

1011
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what you're actually doing and

1012
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: breaking down the messages and the lessons that you're learned

1013
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: and the information that you're passing on. Because I got

1014
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 1: to say, and your avid listeners to our catch killers,

1015
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 1: you've heard all the impressive people that we've had on,

1016
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 1: inspirational people and all that, but speaking to you too,

1017
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 1: and the importance the simplicity of the message, but the

1018
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 1: importance of the message that you guys are delivering. I

1019
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 1: encourage everyone to come back and listen to part two.

1020
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: And if I said it at the start that the

1021
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: introduction that. If you've got kids, I advise them to

1022
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 1: listen to it too, because it can make a difference.

1023
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: And with horrible situations that what you guys have been

1024
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: confronted with the four victims and your son in that

1025
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: lives have been lost, lives have been destroyed. We turn

1026
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 1: that tragedy and that horror situation into something positive. And

1027
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: I think that's what you guys are doing. That's what

1028
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: I want to talk about, in part to breaking it

1029
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: down who you're speaking to and the type of message

1030
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: you're getting across, and any other insightful thoughts that you

1031
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,879
Speaker 1: guys might have, because seeing here listening to you, I'm

1032
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: being inspired by what you're doing.

1033
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 3: Thanks Gary, look forward to it.