WEBVTT - Tales from behind bars. Part 2 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:04.640 Picked up the bird, took it up to wintel and said, 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:06.960 this might be a long shot, but this pigeon won't 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:09.680 nick off. And so we made some phone calls and 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:12.240 found outa was registered to one of the prisoner's fathers. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.920 Like this woman was in her aiding tongue kissing his 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:18.680 mother and then when they strip searched her, well, she 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:22.959 didn't care. She just flashed out, flashed out, flashed everything, 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:26.640 and there was these little packets of heroin in a 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:27.280 bra and. 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:33.040 Mum, I'm Andrew Rule. This is life in crimes. Last 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:37.280 time we spoke to Brian Coglan, former prison officer and 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:41.200 for racing photographer. He told us a little bit about 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:45.640 one of his favorite prisoners, a bloke called Tony Mockbell, 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.879 and I suspect that this week he's going to tell 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:53.760 us a little bit more. Tony Mockbell pretty good company. 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:57.440 You quite liked him. God On, Well, careful of course, 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.240 never to be compromised by people like that, because ever 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:02.640 tried to be fair, you know, you never tried to bribe, 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:03.920 you know, hundreds of them. 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:10.120 Do you offer your things? But what sort of things? Frank, 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:16.200 I remember telling a crook one day, I was I 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:18.120 don't know how I was short or I needed. And 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:22.120 he literally came and said, he's an account with twenty 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:24.520 grand in it. Pay your bills. I don't care if 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:26.760 you pay us back or not. It's money I'm supposed 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:30.520 to not have, basically, And I just looked at him 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:35.640 and said, thanks, but no thanks, I said, mate, I planned, yeah, exactly, 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:36.520 this is quite early. 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:39.200 And he goes, why not? 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:41.960 I said, mate, I intend to take a million dollars 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.000 out of this joint over the ten years. I want 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.520 to work here, you know. I said, well, why would 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:49.320 I take twenty grand? It's you know, and I'm made 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:50.280 of a job in a month. 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:52.280 You know. It just didn't make sense. 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:54.880 What sort of offender was he? 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:58.120 He was a sex offender. Oh yeah, he was actually 0:01:58.160 --> 0:01:59.840 a child sex offender. 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:00.920 Really. 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:05.200 He had a place up near Ballarat and right was 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:05.680 up that. 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:10.200 Way, and he literally told me where it was buried, 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:13.360 where the money was money. 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:15.880 I presume, well, I presumeables cash there. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.079 Oh so when he said an account, yeah. 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:22.600 Well yeah, no, yeah, that's right, it wasn't really an account. 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:23.840 It was buried. 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:24.880 Money was buried in a. 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.280 But he couldn't see himself using it for any reason, 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.720 and he said, the neighbors. I don't know if they 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:34.960 were looking for the money or whatever, but he got 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.200 word that they'd smashed up his house. Now I think 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.840 it was probably because he was a pedophile. Probably, Yeah, 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:41.720 I don't think they were looking for money, but because 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:43.760 there's no reason to think it pedophile's got Yeah, I 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:45.880 can't even see that Blake's name now, but yeah, he 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:48.080 was well I think he had land. 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:50.920 Land and having twenty rand in cash barriage too true. 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:52.160 Yeah, well that could be true. 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.720 I've got some land, but I've never had twenty grand 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.520 buried anymore. So that's one. And do you think he 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.280 was manipularly even enough to want to do that to 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.280 get you or you know, on site, Because I mean, 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:06.760 I know they do like to manipulate. 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:08.960 There's not much we can do for them, to be honest, 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:10.720 you know what I mean, really, I mean, give them 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:11.360 an extra pillow? 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:13.320 What can we do for them? Well? 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:16.760 What what? What a mock bell type of a good 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.640 operator who's a bad man can manipulate an officer to 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.600 do something illegal that could cost the office of these job. 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.239 And so now we don't want to tell anybody about that. 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.200 When you brought in the bla blah for me. Well, 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:31.360 that's the first thing we get taught that they're going 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:33.119 to set you up. As soon as you do one 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.160 thing for you, you're in their pocket. You're in their pocket 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:36.960 and they want whatever. 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.040 And to be fair, listen, I was there for twenty 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.280 six years. They probably would have flipped one staff member 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:44.160 a year. You know, either a female has a relationship 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:46.680 with one of them or yeah, you know, a staff 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.320 member will bring in a phone or yeah that do 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:55.240 something along. Phones on phones probably phones were weapons. Were drugs, Yeah, exactly, 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.440 we had drugs in there. Go now there's drones dropping 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:01.080 drugs off. 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:01.320 You know. 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:04.920 It was a reality that drugs got in, right. I 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.240 will tell you most of it. I will tell you 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:09.840 a couple of funny ones that I was thinking about. 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:12.280 One day I worked it, walked into a unic or 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.000 Pennine which was a young offenders unit, and it was 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.599 surrounded by pigeons, which wasn't unusual because there was guys 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:21.760 were always throwing out bread rolls and things for them. 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.960 And I walked into the pennine yard and all the 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:27.440 pigeons flew off bar one. 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:28.640 I'm looking at it. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.719 Didn't think too much about it when in, saw the staff, 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:33.760 signed the book, did what I have to do in there, 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.000 and then I'm walking out, probably twenty minutes later, and 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:42.400 all the pigeons fly off again. Pigeon doesn't move. You 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:44.320 look at it and I say, it's got some racing 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:50.200 bands on its back, and thought, nah, surely not. Anyway, 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.360 picked up the bird was as tame as anything, picked 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:57.159 it up, took it up to intel and said, this 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.360 might be a long shot, but this pigeon won't nick off. 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.039 And you know, acting he's not here all the time, 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.400 but it comes and goes and it's not scared of 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:06.880 people of us. So we made some phone calls and 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:09.440 found out it was registered to one of the prisoner's fathers. 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:12.160 Because this was a young offenders unit, they're all kids basically, 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.680 And yeah, so next thing, we released the pigeon, let. 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:17.640 It go, blah blah blah, kept an eye on. 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.240 It, and then we found his father on the other 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:24.040 side of the wall and the son both calling it down. 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:25.720 And they trained it. 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.120 They trained it. You could call it down, Oh, you 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.080 could call it down? Yeah, yeah, is that right? Yeah? 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.559 So and he's sending stuff in. Yeah, well that what's 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:38.400 presuming because they kept finding gear in the unit, couldn't 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:40.520 work out how it was getting in there. That is wonderful. 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:42.320 So that was one of the funny ones. And then 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:46.280 another funny what happened to that prisoner? Oh nothing, no, 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.040 I mean, did he end up? What's gone on? Unfortunately, 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.919 he was a career criminal. His uncle was in the family, 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.119 was well known to police, let's put it that way. 0:05:56.160 --> 0:06:00.800 So he did well known pigeon, yes, the in racing world. 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.599 But oh well, I don't know. But yeah, So that 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:06.520 was one way that was quite funny. And then another 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.440 one that comes to mind was we got alerted to 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.680 one of the toughest blokes in jail in there an 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.479 old time crook, Johnny, an old armed robber, and you know, 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.800 just a tough old crook, no issues for staff or 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.480 anything that was institutionalized. You knew how the joint worked. 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.960 The one day staff alerted us to him tongue kissing 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:33.160 his mother who was in her eighties. And when we 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:37.320 went over and investigated, found out she was trying to 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.400 pass little balloons of I think it was heroin or something. 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.400 Ah Jesus, was the funniest thing. Like, this woman was 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.120 in her eighties kissing his mother and then when they 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:53.039 strip searched her, much to his well, she didn't care. 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:57.280 She just flashed out, flashed out, flashed everything, and there 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:03.120 was these little packets of heroin in a bra and 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:05.480 and well something we didn't we didn't know Johnny was 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:05.880 into the. 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:08.480 Gear for a start, and into it or selling him. 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:10.320 Don't know, I don't know. He might have been pressured 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.360 to bring it in. There's heaps of reasons why. Yeah, 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.920 maybe thought it was you know, he wouldn't be suspected 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.640 because he wasn't in on that sort of gear. 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.560 Yeah, you'd be a good candidate. Yeah, it might have 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:25.600 been a way to get some money outside organized for mum. 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.360 Exactly, or that they won't strip at eighty year old, 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:31.440 you know what I mean earn. 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:35.480 Yeah, and so what happened to Johnny over there having 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:38.920 the kiss your mum? Probably Yeah, it's probably punishment enough. 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:39.600 Listen. 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:41.960 I know that that picture stayed up on the intel 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.160 wall there for quite a while of oh, because she 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.400 was sticking her tongue out and pulling faces, and you know, 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.120 it was absolutely the. 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:52.240 Funniest thing we've ever seen. 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:53.960 Oh, that's great, And that was one of the good 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.680 things about that job, because you go into work every 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.160 day and you just shake your head and go. People 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.000 on the outs, I wouldn't beleave this, you know, you know, 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:04.600 And that's where it was quite interesting working at a 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:06.640 place with an edge. You know, it could go off, 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:11.400 it could swing. The prisoners used to make allegations about everything, 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:12.240 and you. 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:16.720 Know, maybe some of them have been known to tell lies. Yes, 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.120 some would say they got nothing better to do. They 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:22.520 actually are dishonest, some of them. 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:24.960 It was a game to them. 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.440 What about some of the fellow officers. Were they all 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:28.720 officers and gentlemen. 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.240 I listened to be fair because of the way they 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:35.960 recruited it poor film. It was very much custom orientated. 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:40.520 There were a lot of people persons employed, but there 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:44.640 were some big boys. And then there was the Islanders. 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.800 We had some pretty big Islander officers and make up 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:50.040 for some Islander prisoners. 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.640 Yes, yeah, well you had to fight fire with fire. 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.240 So if you've got a Tonguean, can you get someone 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:56.120 or what is ours? 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.360 It work well on our side of the fence. The 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:02.400 Tonguan's gone on well. With the Samoans on their side 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:06.880 of the fence, it didn't go that well. But yeah, 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.280 for some reason, the staff there were Samoan and Tongan 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.120 and boys. Well, they never was an issue. You know, 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.120 they like brothers, you know, they like rugby. Well, yeah, 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.880 that's like half of them they New Zealand anyway, you know, Yeah, 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:25.640 they're like hunging exactly. Yeah, and they're pretty easy going guys. 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:27.720 But yes, shoes, you try and tackle them, it's like 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:31.679 running into a tree, you know, they don't move, you know. 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.760 And so we had some pretty pretty tasty guys come 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:41.200 over from New Zealand staff. Yeah, they imported some pretty 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:47.200 pretty heavy guys. And yeah, listen, because the main aim 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.240 of everything, and especially in the last few years now, 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:53.400 since you're not leaving allowed to touch a prisoner. You know, 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:56.360 if they're mouthing off and going back, you've got to 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.800 de escalate, de escalate, de escalate. You're not allowed to 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:01.200 touch unless they touch it first. 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.400 You know. I've had four teeth knocked out you Yeah, yeah. 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.160 Tell us about that. Well, what's your worst day? What 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:11.720 was your worst day on the job in twenty six years? 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:15.880 Losing four teeth's got to be in the list. Well, 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:16.600 I didn't lose it. 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:19.400 They were loosened at the stage, but over time they 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.320 were I think to be honest, that was from friendly 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:26.960 fire from one of the of the islanders. Yeah, who 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.480 was We were trying to take this guy down who 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:34.160 just run at us, and yeah I got I got 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:36.360 my teeth knocked out in the backwash of us. 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.559 What else happened? I didn't put a smile on your die. 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:42.840 To be honest. 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:46.520 I've only been attacked a couple of times, and one 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.480 of them was a what we'd call a bail out 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.440 of the unit. I knew he didn't have an issue 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.520 with me. I knew, but he was getting pretty agitated 0:10:55.960 --> 0:11:00.000 and I turned around to speak to another staff man 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:01.280 and he jumped me. 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:02.160 Oh. 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.640 Now it didn't really hurt me, but he knows jumping 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.120 staff will get him out of there. He had to 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.000 get out of that unit. And quite often they do 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.480 things like that, or they'll do something to it, and 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:14.959 then they kill straight up and apologize. 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.160 Oh, when you say bailout, it's a voluntary, and he's wanting. 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.600 He wanted to get out of the unit and didn't 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.479 want to lose face and wanted to be seen to Yesh, 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.680 he's not leaving because he's got issues. He's leaving because 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.760 he attacked a staff member. So it was all at 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:35.560 prison politics. And then another time where that makes sense. 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.839 I actually this is actually quite quite a funny one. 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.960 It was another career criminal. He was Aboriginal. Listened, he 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:45.599 was our billet. He was a terrific kid, like he 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.640 knew the way jail worked. He used to do stuff 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:50.720 before he even asked him as clean out of seale 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.600 or paint a sale or doing it like really really 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:58.080 unfortunately institutionalized, but no trouble to staff. Then one day 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.280 we had a prisoner coming in late and I had 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.200 to go and ask him to double to bunk up 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.200 with this prisoner. And I said, listen, it's only for 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.920 the night. Well, first of all, I sent the staff 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.040 down to talent, thinking there wouldn't be an issue because 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:14.360 he's very compliant. Now I don't know if he just 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:19.200 had something or whatever, but he was going to his 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.520 cell and he said, no, I'm not sharing a sale. 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.080 So then the staff came and got my I was 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:28.080 supervising in the unit, and said, you know, knackers won't move. 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:30.400 Anyway. So there was. 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:34.080 Another kid who'd been on been on the floor. A 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.000 staff member had been on the floor for probably about 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.760 six months and was struggling prisoners weren't getting on with him. 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.640 He didn't know how to talk to prisoners. He was 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:46.520 falling out with staff, he was falling out with people, 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.560 and anyway, another staff member said, Knacker's go with mister 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.120 Coglin and learn how to talk to a prisoner who's upset. 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.839 So we walked on down and he's following me down, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.360 and I said, mate, just let me do the talking. 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:04.440 He'll move. There's no drum. There's something going on, but 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:05.959 we'll work it out. 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.680 So I walked down and opened the door and said 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.520 to the guy, listen, what's going on. And he was 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:13.000 lying on the bed and he goes, I'm not moving. 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.239 I'm not moving seals, And I said, come on. I said, 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:18.880 you know, we'll get you a single cell back tomorrow. 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.679 I said, we've run out of his room. Anyway, I 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.199 don't know what was up up his nose or up 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.960 he was different. And I had this guy behind me 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.040 and he goes, get that guy out of the cell. 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.800 I said, no, no, no, I said, we're not coming into 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.439 hassle yet. I just want to tell you to listen, 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:40.480 make room. You're going to get a cell mate tonight. No, 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:42.720 I'm telling you how I'll bash him. If he comes in, 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:46.360 I'll do all this and carry on. And the funny 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:50.600 thing was, he started getting up off the bed and 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.719 you just let him stand up. Then I saw him 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:55.880 cocky's arm and thought he's going to have a crack here, 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.400 and I literally grabbed him and put my head on 0:13:59.440 --> 0:13:59.959 his chest. 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:01.600 Yeah, that's how close we were. 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.760 And so I pulled him together just so he couldn't 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.080 get a swing in my head basically and just telling 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.960 him to calm down. Well, he saw the guy who 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.080 he didn't really like behind me. Anyway, he's taking a 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.079 swing of mate, but I've ducked. He put my head 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.360 on his chest and so he couldn't get me all 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.320 the poor bloke behind me crack got him in the nose, 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:23.000 broke his nose. 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:23.880 As claret everywhere. 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.960 Oh, oh Jesus, And I'm trying to teach you. Was 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:32.480 it meant for you that punch? Once again, I don't 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:33.680 know if he would have done it if I was 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.160 there on my own, But because he had a reason 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:41.320 to unleash. He didn't like the other bloke and when 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.120 none of us will know, are probably real to him, Yeah, exactly. 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.040 And I didn't listen to this other guy well, he's 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.800 not in the job anymore. He wasn't great with crooks. 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.200 He didn't know how to speak to them. He didn't 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.040 have their respect, if you know what I mean in 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.360 a funny sort of way. So he wasn't really cut 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.960 out for the job. And I must admit I never 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.680 thought that prisoner would attack me. So the next day 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.560 I went down to the slot with the Aboriginal liaison 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.880 officer because he was completely out. 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:10.120 Of character for this guy. 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.280 So we both went down and I'm expecting him to 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.000 literally put his hand out and say sorry, Brian. You know, 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:20.280 I don't know what got into me. For some reason. Well, 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:22.320 he was red hot again. He nearly came across the 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.440 table again at me. And I was there with the 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.800 with the liaison with the liaison officer, and we're both 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.960 looking at each other, going, this is so out of character. Now, 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.000 I think he was off his head on ice or something. 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.040 It must have and must have got a taste during 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:39.320 the day. And you know, it was just a complete 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:40.359 form reversal. 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:45.040 Yeah, that's I mean, police will tell you this, but 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:47.080 prison officers must have the same problem. 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:51.320 Sometimes that ice does leads to terrible things. Oh it's 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:55.280 a shot mad bad do mad crazy stuff. Yeah, and 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.280 you're flat out holding them down. Yeah, he's stronger. Yeah, No, 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.720 it's it's And I don't know why you'd want to 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:02.800 be on ice in jail. 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:05.040 You're just speeding off. 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.360 You wouldn't seem to be you know, I can understand 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:10.720 if you'd want to have a smoke or or chill 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.720 out in there, but been on ice is not the 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:14.480 right place to be. 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.640 So some of the other people, you, I mean, we 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:19.720 don't want to talk about really bad people too much, 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:26.240 but you knew Leslie Camaliary and Lindsay Hamani Beckett, who 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.560 were the terrible pair who killed the biggest school girls. 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.040 Now we're not going to dwell on them because better 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:36.800 their names are not spoken most of the time, your 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:41.000 impressions of them and looking after them, and other prisoner's 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:42.080 attitudes towards them. 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.520 Yeah, to be fair, they copped a fair burn from 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.200 the other prisoners because of the future trins are on 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:52.760 and they did get burnt a lot. But they were 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:57.040 together initially, and then I believe Beckett gave evidence against 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.240 Camaliary and we had to separate them. 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.520 And when you say burn, what sort of stuff. 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:08.040 The other prisoners yell out call them, calling them dogs, 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:11.760 rapists and murderers and kid killers. 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:12.320 And just. 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:16.119 Would you have would they be in protection or they 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:18.480 were in protection? They're in a protection wing, and they'd 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:20.359 be in there with the likes of Andrew Fraser, the 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.119 lawyer Andrew Fraser, who this show knew quite well. We 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.520 had him on our show here for hours, and we 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:32.680 knew Fraser pretty well. And he he resented being put 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.760 on protection because he saw it as a deliberate attempt 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.800 by the authorities to smear him, as as some sort 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:40.320 of give up. 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.080 He knew the stain of being in protection, Yeah, was, 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.159 and he was desperate to try and get out of it. 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.439 Kept writing to the powers of Pee to get him 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:53.080 out of protection. And how do you read their decision 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.400 to put him in protection as a sort of cynical 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.680 ploy to what do you think Andrew wouldn't have survived 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.240 in mainstream? He was very arrogant and why he wouldn't 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.240 talk to a lot of people. Protection was probably the 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:05.200 best place for him. 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.280 But so you think the system knew better? 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:09.000 I think so. I think so. 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:11.919 There was word also out there that he'd also upset 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:13.320 a lot of blokes, a lot of blokes that he'd 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:17.600 represented were in there and whether they should have been 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.600 in there or shouldn't have been in there. But yeah, listen, 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.360 he didn't like protection. He was a little bit snobbish, 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.159 to be honest. We actually had a mutual friend in 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.800 My neighbor was one of his associates, as in he 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.639 was a lawyer to oh, and so he got wind 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:35.840 of that or I told him. I said, listen, do 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:40.159 you know Tom And he goes, yes, he said we 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.360 work together. I said, yeah, I know. I said he's 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.639 my neighbor and he was asking after you, and he goes, oh, 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:49.080 tell Tom, I'm good. And you know, so we built 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.560 a bit of an instant rapports straight away from that. 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:56.000 And Snobby's not probably the wrong. He was careful who 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.359 we'd speak to. He thought everyone was trying to, you know, 0:18:58.400 --> 0:18:59.160 out to get him. 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:00.320 He was. 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.480 He put his hand up and took blame for the 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:07.159 cocaine issues he had and all of that sort of stuff. 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.639 So you know, as he used to say to me, 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:11.960 cocaine is your way of telling you you've got too 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.960 much money. You know, That's exactly what he used to 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:16.280 say to me all the time. 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:17.760 And then. 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.960 I did get a bit disappointed with Andrew when he 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:25.800 put his hand up for the for the Peter Dwpass conviction. 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:31.480 I don't believe there's no way Duwpass would have confessed 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.800 to him, especially the way he said it and everything. 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:36.480 But this is your guesswork. 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:40.359 This is purely my gut feeling and knowing due Pass 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:45.639 and knowing what a piece of work he is, There's 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:49.440 no way he would have anyway. That's that's been and gone, 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.960