1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Picked up the bird, took it up to wintel and said, 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: this might be a long shot, but this pigeon won't 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: nick off. And so we made some phone calls and 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: found outa was registered to one of the prisoner's fathers. 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: Like this woman was in her aiding tongue kissing his 6 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: mother and then when they strip searched her, well, she 7 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: didn't care. She just flashed out, flashed out, flashed everything, 8 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: and there was these little packets of heroin in a 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: bra and. 10 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 2: Mum, I'm Andrew Rule. This is life in crimes. Last 11 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 2: time we spoke to Brian Coglan, former prison officer and 12 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 2: for racing photographer. He told us a little bit about 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 2: one of his favorite prisoners, a bloke called Tony Mockbell, 14 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 2: and I suspect that this week he's going to tell 15 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: us a little bit more. Tony Mockbell pretty good company. 16 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: You quite liked him. God On, Well, careful of course, 17 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 2: never to be compromised by people like that, because ever 18 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 2: tried to be fair, you know, you never tried to bribe, 19 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 2: you know, hundreds of them. 20 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: Do you offer your things? But what sort of things? Frank, 21 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: I remember telling a crook one day, I was I 22 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: don't know how I was short or I needed. And 23 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: he literally came and said, he's an account with twenty 24 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: grand in it. Pay your bills. I don't care if 25 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: you pay us back or not. It's money I'm supposed 26 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: to not have, basically, And I just looked at him 27 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: and said, thanks, but no thanks, I said, mate, I planned, yeah, exactly, 28 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: this is quite early. 29 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 3: And he goes, why not? 30 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: I said, mate, I intend to take a million dollars 31 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: out of this joint over the ten years. I want 32 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: to work here, you know. I said, well, why would 33 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: I take twenty grand? It's you know, and I'm made 34 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: of a job in a month. 35 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 3: You know. It just didn't make sense. 36 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: What sort of offender was he? 37 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: He was a sex offender. Oh yeah, he was actually 38 00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: a child sex offender. 39 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 2: Really. 40 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 3: He had a place up near Ballarat and right was 41 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 3: up that. 42 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: Way, and he literally told me where it was buried, 43 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: where the money was money. 44 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 3: I presume, well, I presumeables cash there. 45 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 2: Oh so when he said an account, yeah. 46 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: Well yeah, no, yeah, that's right, it wasn't really an account. 47 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: It was buried. 48 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 3: Money was buried in a. 49 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: But he couldn't see himself using it for any reason, 50 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: and he said, the neighbors. I don't know if they 51 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: were looking for the money or whatever, but he got 52 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: word that they'd smashed up his house. Now I think 53 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: it was probably because he was a pedophile. Probably, Yeah, 54 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: I don't think they were looking for money, but because 55 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: there's no reason to think it pedophile's got Yeah, I 56 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: can't even see that Blake's name now, but yeah, he 57 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: was well I think he had land. 58 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 2: Land and having twenty rand in cash barriage too true. 59 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, well that could be true. 60 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: I've got some land, but I've never had twenty grand 61 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 2: buried anymore. So that's one. And do you think he 62 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: was manipularly even enough to want to do that to 63 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: get you or you know, on site, Because I mean, 64 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 2: I know they do like to manipulate. 65 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: There's not much we can do for them, to be honest, 66 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, really, I mean, give them 67 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: an extra pillow? 68 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 3: What can we do for them? Well? 69 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: What what? What a mock bell type of a good 70 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: operator who's a bad man can manipulate an officer to 71 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: do something illegal that could cost the office of these job. 72 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 2: And so now we don't want to tell anybody about that. 73 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: When you brought in the bla blah for me. Well, 74 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 2: that's the first thing we get taught that they're going 75 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,119 Speaker 2: to set you up. As soon as you do one 76 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 2: thing for you, you're in their pocket. You're in their pocket 77 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: and they want whatever. 78 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: And to be fair, listen, I was there for twenty 79 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: six years. They probably would have flipped one staff member 80 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: a year. You know, either a female has a relationship 81 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: with one of them or yeah, you know, a staff 82 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: member will bring in a phone or yeah that do 83 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: something along. Phones on phones probably phones were weapons. Were drugs, Yeah, exactly, 84 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: we had drugs in there. Go now there's drones dropping 85 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: drugs off. 86 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 3: You know. 87 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: It was a reality that drugs got in, right. I 88 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: will tell you most of it. I will tell you 89 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: a couple of funny ones that I was thinking about. 90 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: One day I worked it, walked into a unic or 91 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: Pennine which was a young offenders unit, and it was 92 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: surrounded by pigeons, which wasn't unusual because there was guys 93 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: were always throwing out bread rolls and things for them. 94 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: And I walked into the pennine yard and all the 95 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: pigeons flew off bar one. 96 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 3: I'm looking at it. 97 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: Didn't think too much about it when in, saw the staff, 98 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: signed the book, did what I have to do in there, 99 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: and then I'm walking out, probably twenty minutes later, and 100 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: all the pigeons fly off again. Pigeon doesn't move. You 101 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: look at it and I say, it's got some racing 102 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: bands on its back, and thought, nah, surely not. Anyway, 103 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: picked up the bird was as tame as anything, picked 104 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: it up, took it up to intel and said, this 105 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: might be a long shot, but this pigeon won't nick off. 106 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: And you know, acting he's not here all the time, 107 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: but it comes and goes and it's not scared of 108 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: people of us. So we made some phone calls and 109 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: found out it was registered to one of the prisoner's fathers. 110 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: Because this was a young offenders unit, they're all kids basically, 111 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: And yeah, so next thing, we released the pigeon, let. 112 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 3: It go, blah blah blah, kept an eye on. 113 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: It, and then we found his father on the other 114 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: side of the wall and the son both calling it down. 115 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 2: And they trained it. 116 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: They trained it. You could call it down, Oh, you 117 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: could call it down? Yeah, yeah, is that right? Yeah? 118 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,559 Speaker 1: So and he's sending stuff in. Yeah, well that what's 119 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: presuming because they kept finding gear in the unit, couldn't 120 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: work out how it was getting in there. That is wonderful. 121 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: So that was one of the funny ones. And then 122 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: another funny what happened to that prisoner? Oh nothing, no, 123 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: I mean, did he end up? What's gone on? Unfortunately, 124 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: he was a career criminal. His uncle was in the family, 125 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,119 Speaker 1: was well known to police, let's put it that way. 126 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: So he did well known pigeon, yes, the in racing world. 127 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: But oh well, I don't know. But yeah, So that 128 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: was one way that was quite funny. And then another 129 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: one that comes to mind was we got alerted to 130 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: one of the toughest blokes in jail in there an 131 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: old time crook, Johnny, an old armed robber, and you know, 132 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: just a tough old crook, no issues for staff or 133 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: anything that was institutionalized. You knew how the joint worked. 134 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: The one day staff alerted us to him tongue kissing 135 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: his mother who was in her eighties. And when we 136 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: went over and investigated, found out she was trying to 137 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: pass little balloons of I think it was heroin or something. 138 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: Ah Jesus, was the funniest thing. Like, this woman was 139 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: in her eighties kissing his mother and then when they 140 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: strip searched her, much to his well, she didn't care. 141 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: She just flashed out, flashed out, flashed everything, and there 142 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: was these little packets of heroin in a bra and 143 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: and well something we didn't we didn't know Johnny was 144 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: into the. 145 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 2: Gear for a start, and into it or selling him. 146 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: Don't know, I don't know. He might have been pressured 147 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: to bring it in. There's heaps of reasons why. Yeah, 148 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: maybe thought it was you know, he wouldn't be suspected 149 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: because he wasn't in on that sort of gear. 150 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, you'd be a good candidate. Yeah, it might have 151 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: been a way to get some money outside organized for mum. 152 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: Exactly, or that they won't strip at eighty year old, 153 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: you know what I mean earn. 154 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so what happened to Johnny over there having 155 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: the kiss your mum? Probably Yeah, it's probably punishment enough. 156 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 3: Listen. 157 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: I know that that picture stayed up on the intel 158 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: wall there for quite a while of oh, because she 159 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: was sticking her tongue out and pulling faces, and you know, 160 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: it was absolutely the. 161 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 3: Funniest thing we've ever seen. 162 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: Oh, that's great, And that was one of the good 163 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: things about that job, because you go into work every 164 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: day and you just shake your head and go. People 165 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: on the outs, I wouldn't beleave this, you know, you know, 166 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: And that's where it was quite interesting working at a 167 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: place with an edge. You know, it could go off, 168 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: it could swing. The prisoners used to make allegations about everything, 169 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: and you. 170 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 2: Know, maybe some of them have been known to tell lies. Yes, 171 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 2: some would say they got nothing better to do. They 172 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 2: actually are dishonest, some of them. 173 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 3: It was a game to them. 174 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 2: What about some of the fellow officers. Were they all 175 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 2: officers and gentlemen. 176 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: I listened to be fair because of the way they 177 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: recruited it poor film. It was very much custom orientated. 178 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: There were a lot of people persons employed, but there 179 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: were some big boys. And then there was the Islanders. 180 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: We had some pretty big Islander officers and make up 181 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: for some Islander prisoners. 182 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, well you had to fight fire with fire. 183 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 2: So if you've got a Tonguean, can you get someone 184 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: or what is ours? 185 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: It work well on our side of the fence. The 186 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: Tonguan's gone on well. With the Samoans on their side 187 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: of the fence, it didn't go that well. But yeah, 188 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: for some reason, the staff there were Samoan and Tongan 189 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: and boys. Well, they never was an issue. You know, 190 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: they like brothers, you know, they like rugby. Well, yeah, 191 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: that's like half of them they New Zealand anyway, you know, Yeah, 192 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: they're like hunging exactly. Yeah, and they're pretty easy going guys. 193 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: But yes, shoes, you try and tackle them, it's like 194 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: running into a tree, you know, they don't move, you know. 195 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: And so we had some pretty pretty tasty guys come 196 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: over from New Zealand staff. Yeah, they imported some pretty 197 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: pretty heavy guys. And yeah, listen, because the main aim 198 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: of everything, and especially in the last few years now, 199 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: since you're not leaving allowed to touch a prisoner. You know, 200 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: if they're mouthing off and going back, you've got to 201 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: de escalate, de escalate, de escalate. You're not allowed to 202 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: touch unless they touch it first. 203 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 3: You know. I've had four teeth knocked out you Yeah, yeah. 204 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: Tell us about that. Well, what's your worst day? What 205 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 2: was your worst day on the job in twenty six years? 206 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: Losing four teeth's got to be in the list. Well, 207 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: I didn't lose it. 208 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: They were loosened at the stage, but over time they 209 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: were I think to be honest, that was from friendly 210 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: fire from one of the of the islanders. Yeah, who 211 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: was We were trying to take this guy down who 212 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: just run at us, and yeah I got I got 213 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: my teeth knocked out in the backwash of us. 214 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 2: What else happened? I didn't put a smile on your die. 215 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 3: To be honest. 216 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: I've only been attacked a couple of times, and one 217 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: of them was a what we'd call a bail out 218 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: of the unit. I knew he didn't have an issue 219 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: with me. I knew, but he was getting pretty agitated 220 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: and I turned around to speak to another staff man 221 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: and he jumped me. 222 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: Oh. 223 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: Now it didn't really hurt me, but he knows jumping 224 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: staff will get him out of there. He had to 225 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: get out of that unit. And quite often they do 226 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: things like that, or they'll do something to it, and 227 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: then they kill straight up and apologize. 228 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 2: Oh, when you say bailout, it's a voluntary, and he's wanting. 229 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: He wanted to get out of the unit and didn't 230 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,479 Speaker 1: want to lose face and wanted to be seen to Yesh, 231 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: he's not leaving because he's got issues. He's leaving because 232 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: he attacked a staff member. So it was all at 233 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: prison politics. And then another time where that makes sense. 234 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: I actually this is actually quite quite a funny one. 235 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: It was another career criminal. He was Aboriginal. Listened, he 236 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,599 Speaker 1: was our billet. He was a terrific kid, like he 237 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: knew the way jail worked. He used to do stuff 238 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: before he even asked him as clean out of seale 239 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: or paint a sale or doing it like really really 240 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: unfortunately institutionalized, but no trouble to staff. Then one day 241 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: we had a prisoner coming in late and I had 242 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: to go and ask him to double to bunk up 243 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: with this prisoner. And I said, listen, it's only for 244 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: the night. Well, first of all, I sent the staff 245 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: down to talent, thinking there wouldn't be an issue because 246 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: he's very compliant. Now I don't know if he just 247 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: had something or whatever, but he was going to his 248 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: cell and he said, no, I'm not sharing a sale. 249 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: So then the staff came and got my I was 250 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: supervising in the unit, and said, you know, knackers won't move. 251 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 3: Anyway. So there was. 252 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: Another kid who'd been on been on the floor. A 253 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: staff member had been on the floor for probably about 254 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: six months and was struggling prisoners weren't getting on with him. 255 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: He didn't know how to talk to prisoners. He was 256 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: falling out with staff, he was falling out with people, 257 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: and anyway, another staff member said, Knacker's go with mister 258 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: Coglin and learn how to talk to a prisoner who's upset. 259 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,839 Speaker 1: So we walked on down and he's following me down, 260 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: and I said, mate, just let me do the talking. 261 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 3: He'll move. There's no drum. There's something going on, but 262 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 3: we'll work it out. 263 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: So I walked down and opened the door and said 264 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: to the guy, listen, what's going on. And he was 265 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: lying on the bed and he goes, I'm not moving. 266 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,239 Speaker 1: I'm not moving seals, And I said, come on. I said, 267 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, we'll get you a single cell back tomorrow. 268 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: I said, we've run out of his room. Anyway, I 269 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 1: don't know what was up up his nose or up 270 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: he was different. And I had this guy behind me 271 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: and he goes, get that guy out of the cell. 272 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: I said, no, no, no, I said, we're not coming into 273 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: hassle yet. I just want to tell you to listen, 274 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: make room. You're going to get a cell mate tonight. No, 275 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: I'm telling you how I'll bash him. If he comes in, 276 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: I'll do all this and carry on. And the funny 277 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: thing was, he started getting up off the bed and 278 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 1: you just let him stand up. Then I saw him 279 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: cocky's arm and thought he's going to have a crack here, 280 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: and I literally grabbed him and put my head on 281 00:13:59,440 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: his chest. 282 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's how close we were. 283 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: And so I pulled him together just so he couldn't 284 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: get a swing in my head basically and just telling 285 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: him to calm down. Well, he saw the guy who 286 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: he didn't really like behind me. Anyway, he's taking a 287 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: swing of mate, but I've ducked. He put my head 288 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: on his chest and so he couldn't get me all 289 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: the poor bloke behind me crack got him in the nose, 290 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: broke his nose. 291 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: As claret everywhere. 292 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: Oh, oh Jesus, And I'm trying to teach you. Was 293 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: it meant for you that punch? Once again, I don't 294 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: know if he would have done it if I was 295 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: there on my own, But because he had a reason 296 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: to unleash. He didn't like the other bloke and when 297 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: none of us will know, are probably real to him, Yeah, exactly. 298 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: And I didn't listen to this other guy well, he's 299 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: not in the job anymore. He wasn't great with crooks. 300 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: He didn't know how to speak to them. He didn't 301 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: have their respect, if you know what I mean in 302 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: a funny sort of way. So he wasn't really cut 303 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: out for the job. And I must admit I never 304 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: thought that prisoner would attack me. So the next day 305 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: I went down to the slot with the Aboriginal liaison 306 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: officer because he was completely out. 307 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 3: Of character for this guy. 308 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: So we both went down and I'm expecting him to 309 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: literally put his hand out and say sorry, Brian. You know, 310 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: I don't know what got into me. For some reason. Well, 311 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: he was red hot again. He nearly came across the 312 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: table again at me. And I was there with the 313 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: with the liaison with the liaison officer, and we're both 314 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: looking at each other, going, this is so out of character. Now, 315 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: I think he was off his head on ice or something. 316 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: It must have and must have got a taste during 317 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: the day. And you know, it was just a complete 318 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:40,359 Speaker 1: form reversal. 319 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean, police will tell you this, but 320 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: prison officers must have the same problem. 321 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: Sometimes that ice does leads to terrible things. Oh it's 322 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: a shot mad bad do mad crazy stuff. Yeah, and 323 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: you're flat out holding them down. Yeah, he's stronger. Yeah, No, 324 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: it's it's And I don't know why you'd want to 325 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: be on ice in jail. 326 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 3: You're just speeding off. 327 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: You wouldn't seem to be you know, I can understand 328 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: if you'd want to have a smoke or or chill 329 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: out in there, but been on ice is not the 330 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: right place to be. 331 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 2: So some of the other people, you, I mean, we 332 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: don't want to talk about really bad people too much, 333 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: but you knew Leslie Camaliary and Lindsay Hamani Beckett, who 334 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: were the terrible pair who killed the biggest school girls. 335 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: Now we're not going to dwell on them because better 336 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: their names are not spoken most of the time, your 337 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: impressions of them and looking after them, and other prisoner's 338 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 2: attitudes towards them. 339 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, to be fair, they copped a fair burn from 340 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: the other prisoners because of the future trins are on 341 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: and they did get burnt a lot. But they were 342 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: together initially, and then I believe Beckett gave evidence against 343 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: Camaliary and we had to separate them. 344 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 2: And when you say burn, what sort of stuff. 345 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: The other prisoners yell out call them, calling them dogs, 346 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: rapists and murderers and kid killers. 347 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 3: And just. 348 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 2: Would you have would they be in protection or they 349 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: were in protection? They're in a protection wing, and they'd 350 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 2: be in there with the likes of Andrew Fraser, the 351 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 2: lawyer Andrew Fraser, who this show knew quite well. We 352 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: had him on our show here for hours, and we 353 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 2: knew Fraser pretty well. And he he resented being put 354 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: on protection because he saw it as a deliberate attempt 355 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 2: by the authorities to smear him, as as some sort 356 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 2: of give up. 357 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: He knew the stain of being in protection, Yeah, was, 358 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: and he was desperate to try and get out of it. 359 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: Kept writing to the powers of Pee to get him 360 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: out of protection. And how do you read their decision 361 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: to put him in protection as a sort of cynical 362 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: ploy to what do you think Andrew wouldn't have survived 363 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: in mainstream? He was very arrogant and why he wouldn't 364 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: talk to a lot of people. Protection was probably the 365 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: best place for him. 366 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: But so you think the system knew better? 367 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 3: I think so. I think so. 368 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: There was word also out there that he'd also upset 369 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: a lot of blokes, a lot of blokes that he'd 370 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: represented were in there and whether they should have been 371 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: in there or shouldn't have been in there. But yeah, listen, 372 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: he didn't like protection. He was a little bit snobbish, 373 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: to be honest. We actually had a mutual friend in 374 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: My neighbor was one of his associates, as in he 375 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: was a lawyer to oh, and so he got wind 376 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: of that or I told him. I said, listen, do 377 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: you know Tom And he goes, yes, he said we 378 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: work together. I said, yeah, I know. I said he's 379 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: my neighbor and he was asking after you, and he goes, oh, 380 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: tell Tom, I'm good. And you know, so we built 381 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: a bit of an instant rapports straight away from that. 382 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: And Snobby's not probably the wrong. He was careful who 383 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: we'd speak to. He thought everyone was trying to, you know, 384 00:18:58,400 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: out to get him. 385 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 3: He was. 386 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: He put his hand up and took blame for the 387 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: cocaine issues he had and all of that sort of stuff. 388 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: So you know, as he used to say to me, 389 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: cocaine is your way of telling you you've got too 390 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: much money. You know, That's exactly what he used to 391 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: say to me all the time. 392 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 3: And then. 393 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: I did get a bit disappointed with Andrew when he 394 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: put his hand up for the for the Peter Dwpass conviction. 395 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: I don't believe there's no way Duwpass would have confessed 396 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: to him, especially the way he said it and everything. 397 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 2: But this is your guesswork. 398 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: This is purely my gut feeling and knowing due Pass 399 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: and knowing what a piece of work he is, There's 400 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: no way he would have anyway. That's that's been and gone, 401 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: and unfortunately Andrew's gone to now, so you know that 402 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: chapter's pretty much closed. 403 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 2: Of course, Peter Dupaz is the sex killer, one of 404 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 2: the worst people in the system, who is going to 405 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 2: live and die in jail because of the many crimes 406 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: he's done. And his relevance here is that Andrew Fraser, 407 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: the late Andrew Fraser, the criminal lawyer who did almost 408 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:22,959 Speaker 2: five years for cocaine charges. He gave evidence against du 409 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 2: Pass and was able to get a reward for doing so, 410 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 2: and that evidence was enough to convict Dupass of the 411 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 2: murder of Mersina hal Vargas, a crime for which he 412 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 2: had not been convicted, but which he obviously did. And 413 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: what it was was a way for the dead girl's 414 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 2: family to get some closure because Dupas was in fact 415 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 2: already in jail and going to stay there a very 416 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 2: long time. And Fraser's evidence nailed it down. For the family. 417 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: Mother names that were big names in the past. You 418 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 2: knew Hugo Rich real name Oli Diadrich talking about arrogant crooks. 419 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 3: He was right up there. 420 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: He fancied himself, especially with the female staff. 421 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 3: He was actually quite a clever guy. 422 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: He designed them kitchens and did he walkways, and it 423 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: was very good. He was very good at a lot 424 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: of things, really. But he was in our woodwork department 425 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: and he designed and built a desk that was thin 426 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: but could hold a mobile phone. Came apart, really, and 427 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,479 Speaker 1: for years or for ages, we didn't know about it 428 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: and all of this, and we knew there was a 429 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 1: mobile phone in the un and we couldn't round it. Yeah, 430 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,719 Speaker 1: and it was inside this wooden thing that probably wouldn't 431 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: have been more than an inch thick. 432 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 3: But it was so well put together. 433 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: Like Japanese jewelery that yeah, yeah, so far, and the 434 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: craftsmanship was unbelievable really, and I thinking, and you know, 435 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: he said no, and I thought. 436 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: Jeez, I wonder what happened to that? 437 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know where that is at the moment, 438 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: But Hugo got ended up getting bundled off down to Barwin. 439 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,479 Speaker 1: He didn't want to leave, and put on a hall 440 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: of a show dragging him out of the place. I 441 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: don't know why I wanted to stay at Poor Philip, 442 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: but he certainly didn't want to go to Barwin. 443 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 3: I don't know if he had issues there or whatever. 444 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: Just for our listeners, Oli Dietrich alias Hugo Rich was 445 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 2: a prolific among other things that I'm robber and his 446 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: last big sentence was because he he shot us a 447 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 2: fellow German I think of Austrian in the face. But 448 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 2: Hugo was doing the robbing and the man he shot 449 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 2: was a security guard you know, that was delivering cash 450 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: to a was the Eastern suburbs and he hadn't been 451 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 2: out for very long. No, it was a terrible crime, 452 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 2: and you do wonder about what the background of that was, 453 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 2: whether whether he was getting rid of someone who he 454 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 2: might have known a little bit. 455 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. It's 456 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: a lot funny, but in the jailhouse dark humor side 457 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: of things when he did come back in because he 458 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: wasn't out for very long. He came up to me 459 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: and I said, you know what happened. You know, you've 460 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: been pinched with a murder. And he said, you know me, Brian, 461 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: I'm no murderer. I said, mate, it was pretty cold blooded. 462 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: And I think two other prisoners gave him up, two 463 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: other crooks, two other yeah, yeah, yeah, gave gave evidence 464 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: against him because we had to keep him separate from them. 465 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: And he was adamant to me, Oh, you know me, Brian, 466 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: I'm not a. 467 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: Cold blooded murderer, and blah blah blah. 468 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: And I did say something like, well, we used to 469 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: call him Ollie just to annoy him because he was 470 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: so full of himself. He really did fancy himself narcissist, yeah, complete, 471 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: And I said to him, you go, the only thing 472 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: that would be actually funnier is if you go down 473 00:23:58,800 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: on this. 474 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 3: And when he did, he wasn't happy. 475 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 2: He wouldn't no. 476 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 3: And you know, he was just a menace. 477 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 2: Was he pretty dangerous bloke, so clever and clever, willing 478 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 2: to manipulate, willing to inflict violence all of the I. 479 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: Had to talk to him when he come back from court. 480 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: And now half the time he came back from court 481 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: and he would have given the judge a bake. 482 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 2: Yes, oh yeah, you know he was encourageable. 483 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: He just loved deferring everything, just making it hard. You know, 484 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: he knew he was going to go down on this, 485 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: so he just wanted to make it as hard as possible. 486 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 3: Yep, yep. 487 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: I don't know if you're going to use his fellow's surname. 488 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 2: It's a very common surname. It's a common surname in 489 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: the way that well, you know that somebody like Carl 490 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 2: Williams has got a common surname. But you've mentioned to 491 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 2: me before we got in front of a microphone that 492 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 2: there's a bloke in there that you thought was relatively 493 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 2: unknown to the public and yet a very potent figure 494 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 2: behind me bars is that true man with a common surname? 495 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: Listen, there are some guys in there. I don't know why. 496 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: They're there or who they are, and after a while 497 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: you don't even bother googling them. You just deal with 498 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: them as you find them. Now, I found this guy 499 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:20,719 Speaker 1: quite charming, quite respectful. Thought, oh gee, he's more like 500 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: one of these old time crooks. You know, who is 501 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: this guy? 502 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 3: And I go to the. 503 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: MoU or the Major Offenders unit, and I'd say, listen, 504 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: he's been a model prisoner here. He doesn't put a 505 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: thing wrong. I've got to get him out of this unit. 506 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: I've got to clear him out to mainstream, get him 507 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,479 Speaker 1: out of here. And for some reason they just wouldn't 508 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: do it. And they just kept saying to me, Brian, 509 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: you don't realize he's the most influential person in the system. 510 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 2: Really, And were they saying state, They were saying, you know, 511 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 2: we don't want to put him at Barwin or something, 512 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 2: or just move him around here. 513 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was just moved around the system. 514 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: Well, he was moved around Port Phillip, was he But 515 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: he was nearly always by himself, and he was No. 516 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: It wasn't overtly menacing, No, not. 517 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: At all, not at all. So those ones, and they 518 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: they pop up every now and again, you'd see this 519 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: sort of blow like he wasn't covered in tats, but 520 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: all the all the top common cheios, all the top 521 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: banditos go out of their way to try and get 522 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: in contact with him, try and get messages to him. 523 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 2: So deducing this, you would one must think this is 524 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 2: a person with a lot of influence, probably financial, Yeah, 525 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 2: because financial buys everything else, isn't it. If you if 526 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 2: you're worth millions outside, you can get things done, You 527 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 2: can organize things. He must have been high up in 528 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: some form of criminal endeavor, presumably drugs. 529 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 3: Yes, well, a lot of the o mcgs. 530 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: You know, we're trying to get him to get involved 531 00:26:53,720 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: or out and and you know I used to it 532 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: there and think, God, you know. 533 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 3: Who are you? Who are you? You know? 534 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: How do you have so much pull in the joint? 535 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: Now obviously the authorities above my level knew about it, yes, 536 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: because they refused to put him back out into the mainstream. 537 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 2: Is that man still inside? 538 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,959 Speaker 1: That man when poor Philip closed, he was still inside. 539 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: So I presume he's gone to Barwin. 540 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 2: When when was Port Philip closed again? 541 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 3: It was closed at the end of twenty twenty five deceeventh. 542 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 2: Thirty first, right, so he went to Barben. Yeah, I see. 543 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: So in your view, one of the most influential prisoners 544 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 2: in the system in Victoria probably is now in Barbwan. 545 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: And you still wonder what it is about him that 546 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 2: makes him have so much influence. Yeah, that is intriguing, 547 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 2: intriguing that you didn't hear on the grapevine. 548 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: Nah, And I don't think even our intel knew exactly 549 00:27:54,960 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: because they were very nervous in dealing with him and unsure, Yeah, 550 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: and just wondering why he had such pull in the system. So, yeah, 551 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: they pop up, and generally they are the quiet ones, 552 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: you know, the ones you don't hear about. 553 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 2: The right, the ones that so he acted more like 554 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 2: a businessman than a crook. 555 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 3: Correct. 556 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, he wasn't missing teeth and Nah. 557 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 1: His wife had come in nearly every day near it 558 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: seemed like, you know, it probably wasn't probably three or 559 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: four times a week, but she was always coming in. 560 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 2: He didn't donks his mother. 561 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: No, he wasn't tissing his mother, although I think he 562 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: did have a very good looking barrister or someone who 563 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: used to visit him tourn Oh, you know, but he's. 564 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I see out there. 565 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: Very interesting. Well, now, Brian, you've did twenty years racing, 566 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 2: you've done more than twenty years in the prison system. 567 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: You've got a few stories to tell. I think you're 568 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 2: thinking that you might tell them to people around the traps. Maybe, 569 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 2: you know, rutary clubs, whatever it might be, pubs, clubs, weddings, parties. 570 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: Anything, and and well I'm unemployed now, so I know 571 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: I needed. Yes, they didn't take us on at the 572 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: new prison. We were all dinosaurs and they didn't want 573 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: any of the old poor Philip Scandinavians. 574 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 3: They didn't want any of the old Port Philip culture 575 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 3: at the brand new place. That's absolute, you know joke. 576 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: But and now I hear that they're trying to now 577 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: call the CV prisoners by their first names. 578 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 2: Oh are they? Yeah? 579 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 3: So one legacy of Port Phillips lived. 580 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 2: On is that okay, well let it be would reflect 581 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: the government of the day, pats. Yes, So, Ryan Coughlan, 582 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 2: you've gone from racing to a dinner party in camber 583 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: Well where someone said why don't you come and work 584 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 2: for us? And you did. Twenty six years later you've finished. 585 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 3: Up there, and to be honest, I loved it. 586 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 2: And you're still wanting to get around and do stuff. 587 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: Well, I've got all this useless information in my head 588 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: that a lot of people find interesting. You know, ask 589 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: anyone who works in a prison. They otherwise get told that. 590 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: You get you know, pin at a party. 591 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, end up. 592 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 2: You know this one? You know that, Yeah, you tell it. 593 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: I hope we've been down a few of those rabbit 594 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: holes today. But of course you've only told us probably 595 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 2: ten percent of the things you know. And obviously with 596 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: a podcast you can't be totally frank because it's a 597 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 2: broad audience. Yes, and we certain things we don't say, 598 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 2: but in a live speaking environment you could be slightly 599 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 2: more frank. 600 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 3: You think, so, yes, that's what I think. 601 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 2: Thank you, Brian Cochland. That is the end of the 602 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 2: penny section. 603 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 3: Thanks Andrew, it's been a pleasure. 604 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. 605 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for 606 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 607 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: features and more, go to heroldsn dot com dot au, 608 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: forward slash Andrew rule one word. 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