1
00:00:01,930 --> 00:00:05,870
Speaker 1: The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives

2
00:00:05,890 --> 00:00:08,070
Speaker 1: see a side of life the average person is never

3
00:00:08,130 --> 00:00:12,320
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For

4
00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:14,800
Speaker 1: 25 of those years I was catching killers. That's what

5
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,240
Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

6
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,040
Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead I'm taking

7
00:00:21,060 --> 00:00:23,980
Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

8
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,540
Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

9
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,240
Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

10
00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,780
Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

11
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,960
Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

12
00:00:34,979 --> 00:00:38,390
Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

13
00:00:38,409 --> 00:00:46,710
Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. If

14
00:00:46,750 --> 00:00:50,590
Speaker 1: you listened to part one, you'll know our guest, Natasha Consealy.

15
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 1: lived a wild life, partying hard, working as a stripper

16
00:00:55,140 --> 00:00:59,060
Speaker 1: and falling in with the wrong crowd. That path eventually

17
00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,100
Speaker 1: led to a conviction for drug dealing and time spent

18
00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,679
Speaker 1: behind bars. In part two, we pick up a story

19
00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,080
Speaker 1: from there. Natasha opens up about her time in prison,

20
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,740
Speaker 1: how it changed her and what she's doing now, giving

21
00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,500
Speaker 1: back to society by helping women less fortunate than her.

22
00:01:17,420 --> 00:01:20,700
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this chat and came away genuinely impressed.

23
00:01:21,150 --> 00:01:24,310
Speaker 1: by the person Natasha has become. Have a listen. See

24
00:01:24,350 --> 00:01:29,760
Speaker 1: what you think. Natasha Kansili, welcome back. Part two, I

25
00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,480
Speaker 1: Catch Killers. Hi. Okay. We left you in, you just

26
00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:37,180
Speaker 1: got arrested in part one. Yes. Sorry about that, but

27
00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,060
Speaker 1: it was always going to happen. We talked in the

28
00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,780
Speaker 1: end of part one that you decide, well, I'm not

29
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,569
Speaker 1: going to assist police. I'm not going to give a statement.

30
00:01:46,690 --> 00:01:50,540
Speaker 1: And I think interestingly that you accept your responsibility. You

31
00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,520
Speaker 1: weren't making excuses. I knew what was going on and

32
00:01:53,620 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 1: I'll cop the punishment, whatever that might be. You got bail.

33
00:01:58,040 --> 00:01:58,540
Speaker 2: Yes, I did.

34
00:01:58,940 --> 00:02:02,890
Speaker 1: How long did it take before you ended up in

35
00:02:02,950 --> 00:02:05,050
Speaker 1: custody and what was that time period in your life

36
00:02:05,070 --> 00:02:06,870
Speaker 1: like and what did you do? Yeah.

37
00:02:07,470 --> 00:02:10,870
Speaker 2: So I got bail. I was bailed to Corrie's home

38
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,619
Speaker 2: and she was meant to go everywhere with me. So

39
00:02:13,660 --> 00:02:18,010
Speaker 2: I had really strict conditions. the prosecution wanted me to

40
00:02:18,050 --> 00:02:21,080
Speaker 2: have no access to social media, like any kind of devices,

41
00:02:21,180 --> 00:02:23,480
Speaker 2: but the judge felt that that was unhealthy and wouldn't

42
00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,880
Speaker 2: help me be in a good space because obviously this

43
00:02:27,900 --> 00:02:29,200
Speaker 2: stuff takes a while, right?

44
00:02:29,220 --> 00:02:29,540
Speaker 1: Yeah.

45
00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,220
Speaker 2: But no one tells you that either. You just don't know.

46
00:02:31,260 --> 00:02:33,600
Speaker 2: You kind of just have a next court date in

47
00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,620
Speaker 2: a month. And you think that you'll be– Yeah. Every

48
00:02:36,660 --> 00:02:39,560
Speaker 2: month you've got a court date scheduled and you think

49
00:02:39,620 --> 00:02:42,530
Speaker 2: that something's going to happen. Nothing ever happens. It gets adjourned.

50
00:02:42,990 --> 00:02:46,630
Speaker 2: There's lots of negotiations that go on behind– closed doors

51
00:02:46,669 --> 00:02:49,350
Speaker 2: around with your lawyer and the facts. And the facts

52
00:02:49,410 --> 00:02:51,090
Speaker 2: are never the facts. The facts are the ones that

53
00:02:51,130 --> 00:02:53,150
Speaker 2: the police decide that they're going to write down to

54
00:02:53,190 --> 00:02:56,869
Speaker 2: be the facts, right? At the end of the day.

55
00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:59,590
Speaker 1: And just on that, I'll give it back from a

56
00:02:59,620 --> 00:03:02,580
Speaker 1: police officer's point of view. Sometimes I'm sitting there and

57
00:03:02,660 --> 00:03:05,720
Speaker 1: it's not just, okay, these are the facts, this is

58
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,540
Speaker 1: what's happened. But then you get the adjournments and then

59
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,340
Speaker 1: the facts are watered down or things are changed. By

60
00:03:12,380 --> 00:03:14,480
Speaker 1: the time the person's sentenced on the facts, I don't

61
00:03:14,500 --> 00:03:17,840
Speaker 1: even recognise what's happened. And that's in that behind closed

62
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,959
Speaker 1: doors legal negotiation. I think that, you know.

63
00:03:21,100 --> 00:03:22,690
Speaker 2: And they argue over one word.

64
00:03:22,870 --> 00:03:23,050
Speaker 1: Yeah.

65
00:03:23,810 --> 00:03:27,010
Speaker 2: And I just go, what the hell for?

66
00:03:27,070 --> 00:03:29,870
Speaker 1: They'll concede, we'll do this. And they say this helps

67
00:03:29,910 --> 00:03:32,750
Speaker 1: facilitate justice and speeds up justice. But.

68
00:03:33,510 --> 00:03:35,890
Speaker 2: It actually slows the whole process down. I'm sorry.

69
00:03:35,910 --> 00:03:38,830
Speaker 1: I just can't believe how slow the justice system is.

70
00:03:38,890 --> 00:03:40,950
Speaker 1: And it might start with let's sit the courts a

71
00:03:40,970 --> 00:03:42,990
Speaker 1: little bit longer during the day because there seems to

72
00:03:43,010 --> 00:03:46,350
Speaker 1: be adjournments, breaks, lunch breaks, starts at 10 o'clock, finishes

73
00:03:46,410 --> 00:03:51,850
Speaker 1: at 4 o'clock. Anyway, you've started me whinging about courts.

74
00:03:51,910 --> 00:03:56,280
Speaker 2: I think, you know, there's a lot of holes in

75
00:03:56,350 --> 00:04:00,240
Speaker 2: how we decide what happens to people and how that

76
00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,690
Speaker 2: this is decided and what all of that kind of stuff.

77
00:04:03,710 --> 00:04:05,630
Speaker 2: But that's a whole other story for me. It was

78
00:04:05,690 --> 00:04:09,350
Speaker 2: actually quite straightforward. So I got bail. I was like

79
00:04:09,390 --> 00:04:12,150
Speaker 2: straight away, when can I alter these bail conditions? Like

80
00:04:12,210 --> 00:04:14,090
Speaker 2: I can't do this to Corrie. She doesn't need to

81
00:04:14,130 --> 00:04:16,130
Speaker 2: come everywhere with me. And she was like, can I

82
00:04:16,150 --> 00:04:18,380
Speaker 2: get in trouble if I go out on my own?

83
00:04:18,420 --> 00:04:21,580
Speaker 2: Like we had to navigate all those things. And there's

84
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,800
Speaker 2: no website that gives you information. And when you call

85
00:04:25,820 --> 00:04:28,720
Speaker 2: your lawyer, he's probably busy, he's in court or whatever

86
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,610
Speaker 2: it is. I was really lucky that– He was a

87
00:04:32,650 --> 00:04:36,330
Speaker 2: friend of my ex's lawyer and he goes, just hang

88
00:04:36,350 --> 00:04:37,010
Speaker 2: in there, Tash.

89
00:04:37,170 --> 00:04:38,180
Speaker 1: Yeah, he explained it to me.

90
00:04:38,190 --> 00:04:41,390
Speaker 2: He goes, just hang in there. Just whatever. Go and

91
00:04:41,410 --> 00:04:43,630
Speaker 2: get some third-party advice if you want, but just hang

92
00:04:43,650 --> 00:04:46,650
Speaker 2: in there. It'll be okay. And he just said, look,

93
00:04:46,750 --> 00:04:48,610
Speaker 2: with the bail, your mum can't get in trouble for

94
00:04:48,670 --> 00:04:51,690
Speaker 2: anything or Corey can't get in trouble for anything and

95
00:04:51,730 --> 00:04:55,100
Speaker 2: just do the right thing. So we did and I

96
00:04:55,150 --> 00:04:56,940
Speaker 2: was on bail for 16 months.

97
00:04:57,260 --> 00:04:58,100
Speaker 1: That's a long time, isn't it?

98
00:04:58,100 --> 00:04:59,279
Speaker 2: It's a very long time.

99
00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,400
Speaker 1: Was that a big cloud hanging over your head the

100
00:05:01,420 --> 00:05:01,779
Speaker 1: whole time?

101
00:05:02,510 --> 00:05:07,250
Speaker 2: Look, no, for me in the beginning I was frantic

102
00:05:07,330 --> 00:05:09,170
Speaker 2: about it. I kind of was like I just want

103
00:05:09,190 --> 00:05:12,890
Speaker 2: to know what's going to happen. I reached out. Look,

104
00:05:13,170 --> 00:05:16,109
Speaker 2: they took everything. Police confiscated everything.

105
00:05:16,130 --> 00:05:16,909
Speaker 1: With the proceeds of crime.

106
00:05:16,970 --> 00:05:20,900
Speaker 2: Yeah, proceeds of crime. And I asked a couple of

107
00:05:20,940 --> 00:05:23,100
Speaker 2: questions at the arrest. I said to the detectives, look,

108
00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,680
Speaker 2: I have money that is from my earnings in my

109
00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,380
Speaker 2: bank account. Are you going to take that as well?

110
00:05:28,020 --> 00:05:30,600
Speaker 2: And they went, no, we've got no access to that

111
00:05:31,380 --> 00:05:33,930
Speaker 2: and we're not. That was really important. And then the

112
00:05:33,970 --> 00:05:35,550
Speaker 2: first thing I asked for when I was out on

113
00:05:35,570 --> 00:05:38,849
Speaker 2: bail was my car, my phone, my laptop, all that

114
00:05:38,890 --> 00:05:42,910
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. I lost my job, obviously, because I

115
00:05:42,910 --> 00:05:45,940
Speaker 2: couldn't go to work. And it was all over the media.

116
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,640
Speaker 2: I was working for the council down south at the time. And,

117
00:05:50,779 --> 00:05:52,280
Speaker 2: you know, it was part of our contract that we're

118
00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:55,140
Speaker 2: not to bring them into any kind of. So they

119
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:56,840
Speaker 2: were kind of like they didn't want to let me go.

120
00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,419
Speaker 2: So they asked me to show cause as to why

121
00:05:59,460 --> 00:06:02,020
Speaker 2: they should keep me employed. And I was just like,

122
00:06:02,060 --> 00:06:06,620
Speaker 2: this is the least of my worries. Here's your termination.

123
00:06:06,660 --> 00:06:09,850
Speaker 2: Thank you. I've got bigger fish to fry here. And

124
00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:14,029
Speaker 2: I kind of just went one thing at a time.

125
00:06:14,610 --> 00:06:16,450
Speaker 2: How do I deal with this? Then deal with the

126
00:06:16,490 --> 00:06:20,310
Speaker 2: next thing. I reached out to legal aid. And like

127
00:06:20,370 --> 00:06:22,050
Speaker 2: I said, my lawyer just went, hang in there, Tash.

128
00:06:22,070 --> 00:06:25,770
Speaker 2: Don't do anything drastic. Don't hire another lawyer or anything

129
00:06:25,810 --> 00:06:29,120
Speaker 2: like that. but a friend of mine said, look, Tash,

130
00:06:29,140 --> 00:06:30,900
Speaker 2: I've got a lawyer who's happy to come and just

131
00:06:31,420 --> 00:06:33,420
Speaker 2: consult with you. And he came around and he was

132
00:06:33,460 --> 00:06:36,080
Speaker 2: really keen to represent me, but he also then explained

133
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,020
Speaker 2: some basic things of how it's going to roll and

134
00:06:38,060 --> 00:06:41,520
Speaker 2: what will happen next. And another lady I spoke to

135
00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,210
Speaker 2: as well, she just goes, and by the way, I

136
00:06:43,250 --> 00:06:46,070
Speaker 2: know that it looks horrendous right now and you feel

137
00:06:46,110 --> 00:06:49,830
Speaker 2: like you're the worst person in the world. What you

138
00:06:49,910 --> 00:06:53,110
Speaker 2: actually get sentenced for and what is in is going

139
00:06:53,130 --> 00:06:55,190
Speaker 2: to be two different things. And she was right. At

140
00:06:55,230 --> 00:06:58,789
Speaker 2: the end of the day, that's kind of, negotiated for you.

141
00:06:58,810 --> 00:07:02,119
Speaker 2: Your lawyer checks in with you and makes sure that these,

142
00:07:02,380 --> 00:07:04,740
Speaker 2: you know, how do you feel about this wording or this,

143
00:07:04,860 --> 00:07:06,480
Speaker 2: and we're going to try and get rid of this.

144
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,140
Speaker 2: And I kind of just went, I'm just going to

145
00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,420
Speaker 2: trust the process. At the end of the day, I've

146
00:07:10,460 --> 00:07:13,000
Speaker 2: done the wrong thing, whatever comes from this.

147
00:07:13,020 --> 00:07:15,280
Speaker 1: Okay, fatalistic sort of attitude.

148
00:07:15,460 --> 00:07:18,790
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I just got to accept this. There is nothing,

149
00:07:18,850 --> 00:07:22,530
Speaker 2: I've got no control over it. I had control prior.

150
00:07:22,550 --> 00:07:22,750
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

151
00:07:23,500 --> 00:07:25,600
Speaker 2: I made these choices. This is now how I've got

152
00:07:25,620 --> 00:07:26,020
Speaker 2: to roll.

153
00:07:26,140 --> 00:07:28,780
Speaker 1: Did you have a fear of going to prison? Did

154
00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,300
Speaker 1: you have an expectation that you would be due in time?

155
00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,580
Speaker 2: I knew from the moment when we were arrested, I

156
00:07:34,620 --> 00:07:38,190
Speaker 2: knew that I was going to serve time. Something in my–

157
00:07:38,390 --> 00:07:41,890
Speaker 2: I just knew. Everybody outside of me was very hopeful

158
00:07:41,970 --> 00:07:45,090
Speaker 2: that because it was my first time that I'd been arrested,

159
00:07:45,670 --> 00:07:49,070
Speaker 2: my first offending ever– that I was showing up and

160
00:07:49,090 --> 00:07:51,410
Speaker 2: doing all the right things. So I went and cleaned

161
00:07:51,430 --> 00:07:53,950
Speaker 2: houses whilst I was on bail for a couple of friends.

162
00:07:53,970 --> 00:07:57,000
Speaker 2: So I got a job really. And then I went, well,

163
00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,340
Speaker 2: I've been wanting to do a diploma of counselling for

164
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,040
Speaker 2: God knows how long now. I forgot the time. Why

165
00:08:01,060 --> 00:08:05,180
Speaker 2: don't I do that? So I signed up to online university,

166
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,380
Speaker 2: an online course, and I did a diploma of counselling

167
00:08:07,710 --> 00:08:09,370
Speaker 2: for 12 months whilst I was.

168
00:08:09,410 --> 00:08:10,010
Speaker 1: Kept you busy?

169
00:08:10,110 --> 00:08:12,370
Speaker 2: Kept me busy. I made lots of jewellery. So I

170
00:08:12,410 --> 00:08:15,310
Speaker 2: make jewellery as a hobby and I spend a lot

171
00:08:15,330 --> 00:08:18,000
Speaker 2: of time just being creative. I'd get up each day.

172
00:08:18,020 --> 00:08:22,119
Speaker 2: I'd face Corrie and in the beginning that was tough.

173
00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:24,080
Speaker 2: You know, she was angry with me and so was

174
00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 2: Morgana and I just had to be in her space.

175
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,380
Speaker 1: Because these were the people that took you into their

176
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:29,560
Speaker 1: family basically.

177
00:08:29,580 --> 00:08:31,580
Speaker 2: Always had and, you know, it had been a rocky

178
00:08:31,620 --> 00:08:36,030
Speaker 2: road with me from afar mostly but at different times

179
00:08:36,170 --> 00:08:39,360
Speaker 2: and this was just, You know, what the hell?

180
00:08:39,660 --> 00:08:44,610
Speaker 1: Were you scared about the prospect of going into prison?

181
00:08:44,630 --> 00:08:47,090
Speaker 1: Because that can be daunting for someone that, you know,

182
00:08:47,150 --> 00:08:49,490
Speaker 1: you've lived a life but there's another world in there.

183
00:08:49,929 --> 00:08:54,030
Speaker 2: Look, so for, I don't think I was scared. It

184
00:08:54,070 --> 00:08:57,170
Speaker 2: was more what can I find out about it before

185
00:08:57,220 --> 00:08:57,719
Speaker 2: it happens?

186
00:08:57,820 --> 00:08:58,530
Speaker 1: Yep. Right?

187
00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,120
Speaker 2: What do I need to get, what do I need

188
00:09:01,140 --> 00:09:03,460
Speaker 2: to prep for? What needs to, you know, there was

189
00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:05,020
Speaker 2: all these things. So I was living in a unit.

190
00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,660
Speaker 2: I had to pack all that up. with Corrie and

191
00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 2: Morgana helped me put it all in storage, live with mum.

192
00:09:11,420 --> 00:09:13,839
Speaker 2: What do I take there? How am I going to

193
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,750
Speaker 2: pay for that storage when I go to prison? How

194
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,540
Speaker 2: am I going to keep my phone on? What are

195
00:09:18,590 --> 00:09:20,450
Speaker 2: all the things that I needed to? So I just

196
00:09:20,490 --> 00:09:22,870
Speaker 2: started getting my ducks in a row the closer it

197
00:09:22,910 --> 00:09:26,170
Speaker 2: got to. So once I pleaded guilty, I think 13

198
00:09:26,170 --> 00:09:30,370
Speaker 2: months in and then 16 months, I was then we've

199
00:09:30,410 --> 00:09:31,690
Speaker 2: got a date for sentencing.

200
00:09:31,710 --> 00:09:32,690
Speaker 1: Yeah.

201
00:09:34,330 --> 00:09:37,510
Speaker 2: I had to go to community corrections and do, what

202
00:09:37,550 --> 00:09:41,300
Speaker 2: is it, pre-sentencing report, had to see a forensic psychologist.

203
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,100
Speaker 2: I did all those things and I just showed up

204
00:09:44,300 --> 00:09:47,439
Speaker 2: and just went, I'm not making excuses for any of this.

205
00:09:47,460 --> 00:09:48,340
Speaker 2: I'm just doing this.

206
00:09:48,380 --> 00:09:52,570
Speaker 1: Okay. So that time when you were on bail, you

207
00:09:52,830 --> 00:09:56,570
Speaker 1: got some qualifications and you said got your ducks all

208
00:09:56,610 --> 00:09:59,850
Speaker 1: lined up. So you got your life in order. I did. Okay. Yeah.

209
00:10:00,140 --> 00:10:04,220
Speaker 1: when the sentence comes down, if I'm going to prison,

210
00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,480
Speaker 1: I know I've done everything I can up until this point.

211
00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,360
Speaker 2: And I really thought about everything. And I think a

212
00:10:10,540 --> 00:10:12,959
Speaker 2: lot of the women that I support, they have this

213
00:10:13,020 --> 00:10:16,740
Speaker 2: kind of magical thinking, oh, I may not and then

214
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,180
Speaker 2: their lawyers are going, oh, we'll do everything to keep

215
00:10:19,230 --> 00:10:21,449
Speaker 2: you out of prison. What you then hear is, keep

216
00:10:21,490 --> 00:10:25,370
Speaker 2: me out of prison. They don't get prepared. When you

217
00:10:25,410 --> 00:10:28,150
Speaker 2: go to sentencing on the day, they don't send you

218
00:10:28,210 --> 00:10:30,950
Speaker 2: home afterwards to go and pack up your belongings and

219
00:10:31,010 --> 00:10:33,860
Speaker 2: say goodbye to your kids. So if you have children

220
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,160
Speaker 2: and you're going to sentencing, you need to say goodbye

221
00:10:37,220 --> 00:10:41,059
Speaker 2: to them on that day before court and make sure

222
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,200
Speaker 2: that they have somewhere safe to be because otherwise if

223
00:10:44,260 --> 00:10:47,070
Speaker 2: you get locked up, Those kids are going to get

224
00:10:47,110 --> 00:10:49,550
Speaker 2: collected by DCJ and you're going to be in a

225
00:10:49,570 --> 00:10:51,810
Speaker 2: world of pain. You're going to lose your home. You're

226
00:10:51,830 --> 00:10:55,910
Speaker 2: going to lose your bank account, everything, just everything. Your

227
00:10:55,950 --> 00:10:58,510
Speaker 2: bills are going to amount. If you don't think about

228
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:05,500
Speaker 2: those things prior to this, the repercussions. I remember being

229
00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,739
Speaker 2: in prison with women who went, oh, no, I thought

230
00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,550
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to prison. And then they're locked firstly

231
00:11:12,590 --> 00:11:17,540
Speaker 2: for the first week under observation. No contact with anybody.

232
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,920
Speaker 2: The sapo's too busy to see them and they can't

233
00:11:19,980 --> 00:11:21,880
Speaker 2: ring anyone. They don't know where the kids are. They

234
00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:23,300
Speaker 2: don't know where the animals are. They don't know.

235
00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:24,870
Speaker 1: What was the sentence you were given?

236
00:11:25,500 --> 00:11:29,050
Speaker 2: So my sentence was, it was really interesting. The judge

237
00:11:29,090 --> 00:11:32,650
Speaker 2: took a break before he could decide. He goes, I

238
00:11:32,670 --> 00:11:36,310
Speaker 2: just need to take a short break here. Great. No,

239
00:11:36,330 --> 00:11:38,510
Speaker 2: he did. He goes, I'm having a really hard time

240
00:11:39,510 --> 00:11:47,070
Speaker 2: with making a call here around– So he really, I think,

241
00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:49,250
Speaker 2: but he had to go away and deliberate rather than

242
00:11:49,290 --> 00:11:51,069
Speaker 2: sitting in the courtroom. I'm just like sitting there in

243
00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:55,050
Speaker 2: the little thing. I've got Corrie Morgana, her partner, and

244
00:11:56,070 --> 00:11:58,270
Speaker 2: my amazing friend, John, who's been a mentor to me

245
00:11:58,290 --> 00:12:03,780
Speaker 2: throughout this time, sitting in the court with me. And

246
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,760
Speaker 2: I had my little plastic bag with my glasses, reading glasses,

247
00:12:07,860 --> 00:12:12,430
Speaker 2: some money, my medical scripts, just things that I'd– Gone,

248
00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:13,650
Speaker 2: what do I need to take with me? What will

249
00:12:13,670 --> 00:12:15,809
Speaker 2: they let me take with me, right? And the money

250
00:12:15,830 --> 00:12:17,710
Speaker 2: is so that you've got money in your account straight

251
00:12:17,730 --> 00:12:19,609
Speaker 2: away so that you can make phone calls, that you

252
00:12:19,630 --> 00:12:21,530
Speaker 2: can ring people, that kind of stuff. So it's really

253
00:12:21,570 --> 00:12:24,990
Speaker 2: important to be prepared. Then he came back and he goes,

254
00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:32,030
Speaker 2: so despite all the references and the showing up, the

255
00:12:32,050 --> 00:12:35,120
Speaker 2: good behaviour, everything that you've done whilst you've been on bail,

256
00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:40,410
Speaker 2: due to the severity of of your offences or the

257
00:12:40,890 --> 00:12:42,630
Speaker 2: one offence, and it was the knowingly dealing with the

258
00:12:42,670 --> 00:12:46,970
Speaker 2: proceeds of crime, I'm sentencing you to 15 months no parole.

259
00:12:47,690 --> 00:12:49,770
Speaker 2: And I'm like, okay, here we go.

260
00:12:49,790 --> 00:12:49,870
Speaker 1: Yeah.

261
00:12:51,730 --> 00:12:54,410
Speaker 2: I knew it was happening. Turn around. I was crying.

262
00:12:54,450 --> 00:12:58,730
Speaker 2: I'm just like, I did that. Craig's crying. Garner's crying.

263
00:12:59,790 --> 00:13:01,870
Speaker 2: I'm just like, okay. And they don't give you any

264
00:13:01,910 --> 00:13:03,910
Speaker 2: time to think about it. And, like, it was two

265
00:13:03,950 --> 00:13:04,650
Speaker 2: and a half on.

266
00:13:04,580 --> 00:13:09,660
Speaker 1: Top, 15 months no parole. I'm like, 15 months? Doing

267
00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:11,020
Speaker 1: your calculations.

268
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,439
Speaker 2: Just going, here we go. Just got to go for

269
00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:15,859
Speaker 2: the ride. And they take you, they cuff you, and

270
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,500
Speaker 2: they take you downstairs, and you go into cells. And

271
00:13:18,540 --> 00:13:19,940
Speaker 2: I'd been in those cells before.

272
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,240
Speaker 1: When you were first arrested.

273
00:13:22,340 --> 00:13:25,080
Speaker 2: When I was first arrested, they moved me to Wollongong

274
00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:28,540
Speaker 2: before I got bail. And I just was like, this

275
00:13:28,620 --> 00:13:31,380
Speaker 2: is now my life. And I think that's another thing

276
00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,780
Speaker 2: is when I went to prison, I was mentally, physically,

277
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:39,400
Speaker 2: and emotionally ill. probably the wellest I had been in

278
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,180
Speaker 2: a really, really long time. So I was prepared for

279
00:13:44,220 --> 00:13:47,920
Speaker 2: the worst. I was hoping for the best and just

280
00:13:48,020 --> 00:13:52,320
Speaker 2: knew that whatever I had outside, that was still going

281
00:13:52,340 --> 00:13:54,080
Speaker 2: to be there when I came out.

282
00:13:54,220 --> 00:13:54,460
Speaker 1: Okay.

283
00:13:55,020 --> 00:13:57,260
Speaker 2: And I had to just go, that's all done. Now

284
00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:57,760
Speaker 2: we're going here.

285
00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:58,469
Speaker 1: Concentrate.

286
00:13:58,660 --> 00:14:02,290
Speaker 2: And this is just the new reality. And if you're

287
00:14:02,350 --> 00:14:06,460
Speaker 2: not mentally prepared like that, it's like, being propelled into

288
00:14:06,500 --> 00:14:12,239
Speaker 2: an alien planet. Like literally it's the weirdest space I

289
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,140
Speaker 2: have ever been in. Like I sometimes would walk around

290
00:14:15,179 --> 00:14:18,190
Speaker 2: the yard and just go, where the hell am I?

291
00:14:18,210 --> 00:14:19,330
Speaker 1: Like you're on a spaceship.

292
00:14:19,610 --> 00:14:24,350
Speaker 2: Really like you're on a spaceship. And even like despite

293
00:14:24,990 --> 00:14:28,330
Speaker 2: there is friendship and there's community and there's all of

294
00:14:28,390 --> 00:14:32,290
Speaker 2: those things within those prisons, within the women and wherever

295
00:14:32,340 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 2: they're at, But you have this feeling of there's this uncomfortableness,

296
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,590
Speaker 2: like you want to constantly check who's behind you. There

297
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:48,070
Speaker 2: is always this unsafeness and that is– and there's never quiet, never.

298
00:14:48,910 --> 00:14:50,070
Speaker 2: There's never any silence.

299
00:14:50,730 --> 00:14:54,230
Speaker 1: And no personal space and, yeah, it's– Well.

300
00:14:54,410 --> 00:14:56,410
Speaker 2: In your own cell, yes. Yeah, yeah. But even then

301
00:14:56,450 --> 00:14:57,310
Speaker 2: you can always hear.

302
00:14:57,330 --> 00:14:58,610
Speaker 1: Yeah.

303
00:14:58,750 --> 00:15:02,800
Speaker 2: It's not– and I'd gone from– so Corrie's house is–

304
00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:08,510
Speaker 2: up on a hill surrounded by bush and it's beautiful, quiet. Look,

305
00:15:08,590 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 2: I got to do my bail in the most loving, caring,

306
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:14,580
Speaker 2: safe environment ever.

307
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:15,710
Speaker 1: And that probably strengthened you.

308
00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:18,960
Speaker 2: And that strengthened me for what was to come. But

309
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,460
Speaker 2: that stillness and that quiet, that was all gone. And,

310
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not saying poor me or anything like that.

311
00:15:25,140 --> 00:15:28,380
Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong. That was my punishment. I had

312
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,060
Speaker 2: my freedom taken away from me for the things that

313
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:32,090
Speaker 2: I had been caught doing.

314
00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:36,060
Speaker 1: And that's just– And I think it's important that you've

315
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,240
Speaker 1: made that point frequently that you're not crying poor on this. No.

316
00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:44,380
Speaker 1: I got what I deserve. But, yeah, prison, there's a

317
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,820
Speaker 1: punishment being taken away from society in that environment. Did

318
00:15:48,860 --> 00:15:51,380
Speaker 1: you have any conflicts in there? Did you get through?

319
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:53,320
Speaker 2: I had conflict, yeah.

320
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:54,920
Speaker 1: How did you deal with that?

321
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:56,840
Speaker 2: So I've been doing Thai boxing for a long time

322
00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,470
Speaker 2: so I can defend myself, right? Yeah. I really don't

323
00:16:01,490 --> 00:16:04,050
Speaker 2: believe in violence. I don't. Like from the world that

324
00:16:04,070 --> 00:16:05,930
Speaker 2: I've come from and I now, like I just.

325
00:16:05,950 --> 00:16:09,890
Speaker 1: That'll carry well in prison, but I don't believe in violence.

326
00:16:10,690 --> 00:16:17,470
Speaker 2: Anyway, I never felt unsafe in like that unsafeness of

327
00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:21,730
Speaker 2: in general, that feeling. It's just a general feeling. But

328
00:16:21,790 --> 00:16:24,950
Speaker 2: I didn't feel unsafe in groups or within the yard

329
00:16:25,010 --> 00:16:27,510
Speaker 2: or anything like that. And I had no reason to

330
00:16:27,570 --> 00:16:31,460
Speaker 2: because I wasn't. I wasn't on anybody's radar. I don't

331
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,000
Speaker 2: involve myself in anybody's things. I stuck to myself. I

332
00:16:35,020 --> 00:16:36,780
Speaker 2: did my time and I showed up in a way

333
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,470
Speaker 2: that was respectful to everybody, right, because that's just what

334
00:16:39,490 --> 00:16:43,350
Speaker 2: you do. But not everybody has good mental health in prison.

335
00:16:43,370 --> 00:16:45,750
Speaker 2: A lot of women don't. And I ended up with

336
00:16:45,890 --> 00:16:50,470
Speaker 2: a cellmate who was really unwell, mentally really, really unwell.

337
00:16:50,690 --> 00:16:56,380
Speaker 2: She lost her shit one morning and attacked me. So

338
00:16:57,260 --> 00:17:02,420
Speaker 2: I ended up with a black eye. And was like,

339
00:17:02,580 --> 00:17:03,460
Speaker 2: just get off me.

340
00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:03,700
Speaker 1: Yeah.

341
00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,300
Speaker 2: Get off me, right? And she did. I walked over

342
00:17:07,340 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 2: to the mirror. I looked at my eye and I

343
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:10,900
Speaker 2: just went, look what you've done to me. And she

344
00:17:10,940 --> 00:17:13,830
Speaker 2: just stood there and I just went, I'm going to

345
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,150
Speaker 2: just knock her out. I just dropped my fists.

346
00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:16,570
Speaker 1: Yeah.

347
00:17:17,250 --> 00:17:19,590
Speaker 2: And for me that is to this day, and I've

348
00:17:19,670 --> 00:17:22,850
Speaker 2: spoken about it quite frequently, that is my defining moment

349
00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:25,950
Speaker 2: where it was clear that I had turned a point

350
00:17:25,990 --> 00:17:28,370
Speaker 2: within my own life because I was no longer going

351
00:17:28,390 --> 00:17:31,949
Speaker 2: to become my environment. Because what would that make me

352
00:17:32,450 --> 00:17:36,800
Speaker 2: if I hurt her back? I know different. She doesn't.

353
00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:43,360
Speaker 2: I'm fully aware and violence, fighting violence with violence only

354
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,090
Speaker 2: makes it worse and it would have just continued the cycle.

355
00:17:46,290 --> 00:17:51,230
Speaker 2: And I don't, that moment of no, that is not

356
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:53,940
Speaker 2: who I am, And this is not what this situation needs.

357
00:17:53,980 --> 00:17:56,450
Speaker 2: And then the guards came in, took her away, took

358
00:17:56,490 --> 00:17:59,609
Speaker 2: me away. And all I could think about was I'm

359
00:17:59,630 --> 00:18:03,550
Speaker 2: going to lose my progression out of here because there's

360
00:18:03,570 --> 00:18:07,169
Speaker 2: been an altercation. They then investigate it because I'd been

361
00:18:07,210 --> 00:18:08,830
Speaker 2: hit in the head. You get locked in the clinic

362
00:18:08,890 --> 00:18:16,590
Speaker 2: all day. And the fear that my own actions created

363
00:18:16,850 --> 00:18:20,830
Speaker 2: throughout that day, being locked in the clinic, being checked

364
00:18:20,890 --> 00:18:23,850
Speaker 2: on by the nurses, her being out locked in cells.

365
00:18:24,510 --> 00:18:27,619
Speaker 2: She took full responsibility. They wanted to know if I

366
00:18:27,650 --> 00:18:31,720
Speaker 2: wanted to police charge her. I said, absolutely not. Right.

367
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 2: She needs mental health care and all that kind of stuff,

368
00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 2: not further punishment. And so from that, because I didn't

369
00:18:42,619 --> 00:18:45,360
Speaker 2: whack her, I had no offense because they take photos, right,

370
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,600
Speaker 2: and no offensive wounds on my hands so I didn't

371
00:18:48,619 --> 00:18:51,460
Speaker 2: get charged. And I didn't ruin my progression through prison

372
00:18:52,140 --> 00:18:55,780
Speaker 2: by thinking that that was the only way to stay strong.

373
00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:58,600
Speaker 2: And my fears that I had around people are going

374
00:18:58,619 --> 00:19:00,820
Speaker 2: to think I'm weak. They're going to prey on me now.

375
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,500
Speaker 2: All those things, I just shushed and went, that's not

376
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,740
Speaker 2: the case. And whatever comes from here, I can deal

377
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,790
Speaker 2: with and I'll be fine. It actually turned out really different.

378
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 2: She got out of cells, wanted to a apologize to me.

379
00:19:15,630 --> 00:19:17,590
Speaker 2: I wouldn't talk to her. And then she went around

380
00:19:17,650 --> 00:19:20,189
Speaker 2: telling everybody she's going to bash me again. So I

381
00:19:20,230 --> 00:19:21,750
Speaker 2: called one of the girls over and I said, look,

382
00:19:22,450 --> 00:19:26,169
Speaker 2: your auntie, can we sort this out? I'll help you out.

383
00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:28,530
Speaker 2: If you help me out with this situation. She came

384
00:19:28,570 --> 00:19:31,370
Speaker 2: back half an hour later and she goes, she just

385
00:19:31,410 --> 00:19:34,389
Speaker 2: wants to say, apologize to you in front of everyone

386
00:19:34,430 --> 00:19:38,470
Speaker 2: just before muster. I'm like, absolutely. Let's do it. Let's

387
00:19:38,550 --> 00:19:40,030
Speaker 2: put an end to this because I didn't want to

388
00:19:40,090 --> 00:19:42,890
Speaker 2: live for 15 months going, where's she going to jump

389
00:19:42,930 --> 00:19:45,730
Speaker 2: out of a bush and punch me? So she comes

390
00:19:45,790 --> 00:19:48,440
Speaker 2: over and she goes, I'm so sorry. You're such a

391
00:19:48,460 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 2: beautiful human being and I, I'm sorry for what I did.

392
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,500
Speaker 2: And the whole yard was quite full and everybody was

393
00:19:54,540 --> 00:19:56,260
Speaker 2: watching and I let her hug me and I said,

394
00:19:56,340 --> 00:19:59,500
Speaker 2: thank you for apologizing, but what you did was not okay,

395
00:19:59,660 --> 00:20:03,690
Speaker 2: but I accept the apology. And the ripple effect in,

396
00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:08,159
Speaker 2: I didn't know how, I was just showing up for myself.

397
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,700
Speaker 2: But the ripple effect of how it then went through

398
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:16,570
Speaker 2: the whole minimum security was women would come up to

399
00:20:16,609 --> 00:20:18,629
Speaker 2: me and go, oh, we're so sorry this has happened

400
00:20:18,650 --> 00:20:21,369
Speaker 2: to you. Some of them would ask me and say,

401
00:20:21,550 --> 00:20:24,369
Speaker 2: why didn't you fight back? And I said, because we

402
00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:28,460
Speaker 2: can't fight violence with violence. We're all a victim of

403
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,780
Speaker 2: it in some way, shape or form. Because I know

404
00:20:30,820 --> 00:20:33,990
Speaker 2: they say that 80% of women in have experienced some

405
00:20:34,030 --> 00:20:36,879
Speaker 2: sort of violence, whether it's sexual abuse or whatever it is,

406
00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:39,940
Speaker 2: I'd say it's 100%. There is not a woman in

407
00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:42,879
Speaker 2: there that has not had some kind of abuse or

408
00:20:42,940 --> 00:20:47,650
Speaker 2: experience with it or at some point in time So

409
00:20:47,790 --> 00:20:49,710
Speaker 2: if we're then doing that to each other, what does

410
00:20:49,730 --> 00:20:53,450
Speaker 2: that make us? And if I'm well enough to not

411
00:20:53,530 --> 00:20:55,709
Speaker 2: fight it like that and then I become a target

412
00:20:55,730 --> 00:20:58,610
Speaker 2: by others, which didn't happen because that's kind of what

413
00:20:58,650 --> 00:21:00,990
Speaker 2: I was expecting. And some of the young ones were like,

414
00:21:01,050 --> 00:21:03,810
Speaker 2: I should have just belted her, you know, something, whatever, whatnot.

415
00:21:04,350 --> 00:21:09,619
Speaker 2: But that in itself for me then changed everything within

416
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 2: me because I knew in the past I would have

417
00:21:12,660 --> 00:21:13,680
Speaker 2: become that environment.

418
00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:21,020
Speaker 1: Wow. That story, interesting insight. And I think, yeah, you

419
00:21:21,060 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 1: said about becoming part of your environment and that's how

420
00:21:23,780 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 1: you lived your life and probably the way that you

421
00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:28,790
Speaker 1: were brought up to live your life. It's a watershed

422
00:21:28,830 --> 00:21:31,630
Speaker 1: moment there because, yeah, quite obviously you could have turned

423
00:21:31,690 --> 00:21:33,690
Speaker 1: it on and it could have just escalated and escalated

424
00:21:33,710 --> 00:21:35,170
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden you're going to be

425
00:21:35,230 --> 00:21:37,889
Speaker 1: the hard ass out in the yard and ready to

426
00:21:37,930 --> 00:21:44,169
Speaker 1: fight anyone. But yeah, You handled it with emotional intelligence.

427
00:21:44,660 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 1: And I like the fact that you identified it was

428
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: a potential or it was a turning point in that

429
00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 1: if you punched on with her and dealt out some

430
00:21:53,660 --> 00:21:56,899
Speaker 1: summary justice, you are then becoming the environment that you're

431
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:57,220
Speaker 1: living in.

432
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm not that person anymore. And I

433
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,940
Speaker 2: don't need to. And it was so, that was unsafe.

434
00:22:04,190 --> 00:22:06,830
Speaker 2: All of that was unsafe. Everything, every step that came

435
00:22:06,869 --> 00:22:09,740
Speaker 2: from that. And then what came from it, that that

436
00:22:10,540 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: beautiful moment because that place isn't nice and nobody feels

437
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 2: safe in prison. No one does really.

438
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:20,260
Speaker 1: Even the ones strutting around like they own the place,

439
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 1: that's because they're fearful.

440
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,900
Speaker 2: They're pretending. That's that rooster effect that we have. Like,

441
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,700
Speaker 2: you know, if I strut around, people are going to

442
00:22:27,780 --> 00:22:30,400
Speaker 2: peck people. They'll leave me alone, right, and the ones

443
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,820
Speaker 2: in groups. And what then happened for me was that

444
00:22:33,859 --> 00:22:36,260
Speaker 2: I had this space that I could just sit and

445
00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:38,060
Speaker 2: I could listen to people's stories.

446
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

447
00:22:39,180 --> 00:22:41,060
Speaker 2: Not ask too many questions. It's not the place to

448
00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 2: ask questions. But when they were open to it, I'd

449
00:22:44,180 --> 00:22:46,889
Speaker 2: ask questions. Where do you come from? What's your backstory?

450
00:22:46,930 --> 00:22:49,510
Speaker 2: Where are your kids? That kind of thing. And the

451
00:22:49,570 --> 00:22:52,710
Speaker 2: stories that I heard all had the same kind of

452
00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:56,730
Speaker 2: thread through them. I've lost my kids. They're telling me

453
00:22:56,790 --> 00:22:58,470
Speaker 2: that when I get out to get my kids back,

454
00:22:58,530 --> 00:23:01,430
Speaker 2: I need to find somewhere to live. I need to

455
00:23:01,470 --> 00:23:03,890
Speaker 2: get a job. I need to do all these things.

456
00:23:04,830 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 2: But no one helps me. I'm released with the clothes

457
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 2: on my back that probably don't fit me anymore because

458
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,100
Speaker 2: women are a little bit different than men. Men go

459
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 2: into prison and start training and get fit and all

460
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:16,580
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff.

461
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:17,620
Speaker 1: They come out muscled up. Yeah.

462
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 2: Women put on weight usually. They comfort eat and whatever

463
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,790
Speaker 2: it is that they do. You know, there is no–

464
00:23:26,260 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 2: let's look at the stats for a minute around women

465
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 2: that come into prison. I think about three-thirds of them

466
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,890
Speaker 2: are homeless when they enter prison. Yeah. Half– of women

467
00:23:38,930 --> 00:23:41,300
Speaker 2: released from prison are homeless.

468
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

469
00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:44,540
Speaker 2: They have nowhere to go. They're going to go and

470
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,739
Speaker 2: live on someone's couch or if they're lucky, they've got

471
00:23:47,780 --> 00:23:51,219
Speaker 2: a parent that will take them in. And usually it's

472
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:52,990
Speaker 2: back into the environment that they came out of.

473
00:23:53,609 --> 00:23:56,830
Speaker 1: And if they go back in there, it's almost inevitable.

474
00:23:57,030 --> 00:23:59,470
Speaker 1: And we talked the other day about recidivism and the

475
00:23:59,550 --> 00:24:02,250
Speaker 1: high rate of it. Yeah. That's what we want to

476
00:24:02,350 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: try to avoid. We do. It seems to me it

477
00:24:04,859 --> 00:24:09,310
Speaker 1: was an eye-opener for you and a Time of self-reflection,

478
00:24:09,810 --> 00:24:12,810
Speaker 1: I would suggest, when you're in prison looking at it. Okay,

479
00:24:13,330 --> 00:24:15,460
Speaker 1: why have I let my life go this way or

480
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: why have I gone this way when I look at

481
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: all these other people that are in a worse position

482
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:19,540
Speaker 1: than I am?

483
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:23,899
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that privilege of having– I had all the

484
00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:29,090
Speaker 2: choices in the world, right, Harry? I've– and it made

485
00:24:29,150 --> 00:24:33,370
Speaker 2: me feel shameful around having that access and always just

486
00:24:33,430 --> 00:24:34,770
Speaker 2: believing that everybody did.

487
00:24:35,130 --> 00:24:35,270
Speaker 1: Yeah.

488
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,020
Speaker 2: Because I just didn't know any different. And I think

489
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,940
Speaker 2: that's with a lot of people that have opinions around

490
00:24:40,980 --> 00:24:43,250
Speaker 2: people who go to prison is because that they've never

491
00:24:43,390 --> 00:24:47,250
Speaker 2: actually thought about who might be in there and why

492
00:24:47,290 --> 00:24:50,210
Speaker 2: that they might be in there. And then it's easier

493
00:24:50,250 --> 00:24:52,390
Speaker 2: to just go, oh, those bad people, they belong in there.

494
00:24:53,010 --> 00:24:54,369
Speaker 2: And then when they get out, we don't want to

495
00:24:54,390 --> 00:24:56,540
Speaker 2: give them a chance because they're bad people.

496
00:24:56,780 --> 00:25:00,180
Speaker 1: And when we talk women's prison too, and you referenced 100%

497
00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:03,619
Speaker 1: that have been subject to violence, it would be up.

498
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,710
Speaker 2: Look, the research is 80% of women.

499
00:25:08,750 --> 00:25:12,290
Speaker 1: Yeah, even if it's sitting at that. Yeah. Then we're

500
00:25:12,350 --> 00:25:15,669
Speaker 1: punishing them. They're being victims and they're thrown into the

501
00:25:15,730 --> 00:25:18,429
Speaker 1: justice system and then they're being punished and put in

502
00:25:18,450 --> 00:25:21,770
Speaker 1: the prison. And there's different issues with women in prison

503
00:25:22,369 --> 00:25:26,230
Speaker 1: as compared to men. Quite often the punishment where they're

504
00:25:26,250 --> 00:25:28,649
Speaker 1: losing their children. Yeah. So then you've got children that

505
00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:32,190
Speaker 1: haven't got the mother, which is important in their life.

506
00:25:33,869 --> 00:25:36,810
Speaker 1: We have got to get it better, haven't we? Okay. Yeah.

507
00:25:37,820 --> 00:25:40,219
Speaker 1: do we need to protect society from the people that

508
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:43,179
Speaker 1: are in prison there? You would have seen a lot

509
00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:46,219
Speaker 1: of people in there that thought, well, maybe we could

510
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: do it better.

511
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,590
Speaker 2: Yeah. Most of, like 90% of the women in prison

512
00:25:50,609 --> 00:25:56,930
Speaker 2: are victims of some kind of abuse. So if we,

513
00:25:57,690 --> 00:26:00,649
Speaker 2: and I'd say it's about 100%, but I'd say the

514
00:26:00,690 --> 00:26:05,270
Speaker 2: disadvantage is really high, right? So if we continue to

515
00:26:05,330 --> 00:26:10,500
Speaker 2: punish people, women for either fighting back or trying to

516
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:19,020
Speaker 2: do better. And every time that they are arrested, most

517
00:26:19,060 --> 00:26:22,620
Speaker 2: of them don't get bail, not like me, because they

518
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,139
Speaker 2: don't have anywhere to go.

519
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 1: And there is that privilege that kicked in straight away

520
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 1: for you. You had good law-abiding people out there that

521
00:26:31,180 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: the courts would be comfortable sending you to.

522
00:26:33,940 --> 00:26:37,369
Speaker 2: But like, you know, there's a a small percent of

523
00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:40,330
Speaker 2: people in prison that we do need protection from, right?

524
00:26:40,530 --> 00:26:43,590
Speaker 2: But that's in men and women's prison, and that's a

525
00:26:43,650 --> 00:26:47,270
Speaker 2: small percent that probably really are dangerous.

526
00:26:47,690 --> 00:26:51,810
Speaker 1: I think you've probably got rough figures, and this is 30%

527
00:26:51,810 --> 00:26:55,780
Speaker 1: of prisoners in there. They're career criminals. They see prisoners

528
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: and occupational risk that they take. They'll do the crime.

529
00:27:00,140 --> 00:27:01,980
Speaker 1: They'll get out, okay, we're going to plan the robbery

530
00:27:02,020 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: better next time. They're not the ones we're going to change.

531
00:27:05,260 --> 00:27:09,030
Speaker 1: Then you've probably got 60% that have made mistakes or

532
00:27:09,050 --> 00:27:12,690
Speaker 1: their circumstances in life have led them down the wrong path.

533
00:27:13,170 --> 00:27:15,070
Speaker 1: They're the ones that we can really help. Now, if

534
00:27:15,090 --> 00:27:19,949
Speaker 1: we're doing the calculations, that's 30% career criminals, they're going

535
00:27:19,990 --> 00:27:22,889
Speaker 1: to come back in there. 60% that we might be

536
00:27:22,910 --> 00:27:25,860
Speaker 1: able to help. And then that last 10%, there's There's

537
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,859
Speaker 1: people that I know in prison, people I've put in prison.

538
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,129
Speaker 1: I never want to see them out. And I'm a

539
00:27:31,180 --> 00:27:35,890
Speaker 1: big believer and advocate in prison reform and the benefits

540
00:27:35,990 --> 00:27:40,430
Speaker 1: of having people come out, better people. Even the prisoners

541
00:27:41,250 --> 00:27:44,830
Speaker 1: in jail will agree that that lunatic should never be

542
00:27:44,890 --> 00:27:49,310
Speaker 1: let out. And, yeah, we put them over there. They're

543
00:27:49,330 --> 00:27:51,710
Speaker 1: a different problem, but they're not the problem we're looking at.

544
00:27:51,710 --> 00:27:54,109
Speaker 2: No, they're not the problem that we're looking at. And women...

545
00:27:54,420 --> 00:27:57,379
Speaker 2: You know, despite what people think, and I know that

546
00:27:57,420 --> 00:28:00,590
Speaker 2: it's very popular to believe that, oh, my God, she's

547
00:28:00,609 --> 00:28:04,090
Speaker 2: been to prison, she must have done something really, really bad, right?

548
00:28:04,130 --> 00:28:08,129
Speaker 2: It's that patriarchy that the woman belongs and she's the

549
00:28:08,170 --> 00:28:11,350
Speaker 2: carer and she belongs in the home and she's good.

550
00:28:11,730 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: All these beliefs that we're taught, right, through society, through

551
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. And then the media doesn't

552
00:28:19,340 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 2: help either, right, in how we portray people the women

553
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 2: that have committed those horrendous crimes or killed their husbands

554
00:28:26,340 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: or their children or whatever it is, they're the ones

555
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,899
Speaker 2: that we see. They are that small percentage. That is

556
00:28:34,010 --> 00:28:36,950
Speaker 2: not the majority of the women in prison. And they're

557
00:28:36,990 --> 00:28:40,370
Speaker 2: not the ones coming out who we're trying to find

558
00:28:40,410 --> 00:28:43,410
Speaker 2: employment for or help them get their kids back. They're

559
00:28:43,450 --> 00:28:45,310
Speaker 2: in there for a really long time. They may one

560
00:28:45,330 --> 00:28:47,250
Speaker 2: day get out and want to do all those things,

561
00:28:47,610 --> 00:28:50,030
Speaker 2: but they've actually got quite a bit of support when

562
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:54,620
Speaker 2: they do. It's the women that are stuck. in the

563
00:28:54,670 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: cycle of abuse within their homes or whatever it is

564
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: and they become perpetrators by trying to defend themselves and

565
00:29:03,540 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: the mail then rings the police on them, gets them

566
00:29:06,140 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: thrown out, takes the kids off them. Then the kids

567
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: get abused. They try and get their kids back. They

568
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:17,150
Speaker 2: break their AVOs. It's this perpetual cycle of violence and prison.

569
00:29:17,930 --> 00:29:20,130
Speaker 2: And every time that they get thrown in there, they

570
00:29:20,150 --> 00:29:23,530
Speaker 2: actually haven't even been found guilty of anything. So we've

571
00:29:23,570 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: got more women on remand, which means unsentenced, than we

572
00:29:28,820 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: have women sentenced.

573
00:29:30,860 --> 00:29:33,500
Speaker 1: There's an interesting statistic there, and I haven't got it,

574
00:29:33,580 --> 00:29:36,450
Speaker 1: but the amount of women on remand, so these are

575
00:29:36,510 --> 00:29:39,970
Speaker 1: for people that don't fully understand the justice system on remand.

576
00:29:40,670 --> 00:29:43,220
Speaker 1: you're in custody, you've had bail refused, but you haven't

577
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: been convicted of a crime, so on remand. The amount

578
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: of women that are on remand that by the time

579
00:29:49,660 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: their matter goes to court get released and don't serve

580
00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:56,780
Speaker 1: a custodial sentence. Thank you. Someone that we were talking

581
00:29:56,820 --> 00:29:59,140
Speaker 1: to the other day had a figure on it, and

582
00:29:59,180 --> 00:29:59,660
Speaker 1: I was shocked.

583
00:30:00,060 --> 00:30:01,740
Speaker 2: And there's a figure on, if you go to our

584
00:30:02,310 --> 00:30:05,790
Speaker 2: SuccessWorks website, we've got our impact report and there's figures

585
00:30:05,830 --> 00:30:08,930
Speaker 2: around those things on our website and in the impact report.

586
00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:12,890
Speaker 2: And there's other information if you're interested in educating yourself

587
00:30:12,930 --> 00:30:16,410
Speaker 2: around women in prison. And the Keeping Women Out of

588
00:30:16,550 --> 00:30:22,100
Speaker 2: Prison Coalition have a lot of information on those stats. But, yeah,

589
00:30:22,150 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: remand is where women lose everything, right? So, and these,

590
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,530
Speaker 2: they literally, they get, thrown into jail the moment they're arrested.

591
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: They haven't seen a magistrate. They don't even know sometimes

592
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 2: what they're charged with. Their kids are running wild. Their

593
00:30:39,660 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: house is unlooked after. It gets robbed. All those things

594
00:30:42,820 --> 00:30:46,140
Speaker 2: happen to them. They lose everything. And then they go

595
00:30:46,180 --> 00:30:49,070
Speaker 2: before a judge after a month of being incarcerated for

596
00:30:49,130 --> 00:30:52,170
Speaker 2: something that they probably were a victim of and they

597
00:30:52,190 --> 00:30:56,810
Speaker 2: get set loose with nothing, nothing to go back to.

598
00:30:57,540 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: have to go and find where their kids have gone,

599
00:30:59,460 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, that impact that we're creating. And

600
00:31:05,620 --> 00:31:10,460
Speaker 2: why are we locking up anyone without a sentence? What

601
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,870
Speaker 2: gives us the right to do that? People still have rights. Yes,

602
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,110
Speaker 2: I know that they've offended in some way, shape or form,

603
00:31:16,690 --> 00:31:21,730
Speaker 2: but that's not justice. That's just, I think it's stupid.

604
00:31:22,220 --> 00:31:24,780
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I'll push back a little bit on that.

605
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,060
Speaker 1: There's some people that, yeah, the crimes that they committed

606
00:31:28,380 --> 00:31:31,820
Speaker 1: and we haven't got them convicted, but society needs.

607
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,660
Speaker 2: To be protected. Sorry, I was talking about my women.

608
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,390
Speaker 1: So on that aspect, but. When we talk about people

609
00:31:39,410 --> 00:31:42,690
Speaker 1: in prison, let's talk from a fiscal point of view,

610
00:31:42,850 --> 00:31:47,470
Speaker 1: like how much it costs. The figure's $ 150, 000 up to $ 180, 000. Yeah.

611
00:31:48,270 --> 00:31:51,940
Speaker 2: It's around $ 180, 000 for one woman for a year.

612
00:31:52,460 --> 00:31:54,660
Speaker 1: In custody. Yeah. Now, look at what we could do

613
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: with that money if they weren't in custody and set up.

614
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,740
Speaker 1: Scandinavia have a prison system that is more of a

615
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,890
Speaker 1: village prison. Give the people their life skills, respect and

616
00:32:08,950 --> 00:32:12,230
Speaker 1: all that. I've spoken many a time on this podcast

617
00:32:12,270 --> 00:32:16,850
Speaker 1: talking about Macquarie Correctional Centre where they're trying something a

618
00:32:16,890 --> 00:32:20,870
Speaker 1: little bit different and creating an environment that's more conducive

619
00:32:20,930 --> 00:32:24,380
Speaker 1: to the people in that environment, as in the inmates,

620
00:32:25,020 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: being taught social skills, education, just how to get on

621
00:32:29,540 --> 00:32:33,100
Speaker 1: with people in a community environment. I think that's better.

622
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,910
Speaker 1: And you and I are both in agreement that If

623
00:32:36,270 --> 00:32:39,170
Speaker 1: people come out better than when they went into prison,

624
00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:40,170
Speaker 1: we're all winners.

625
00:32:40,430 --> 00:32:43,050
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And it will reduce crime and it will keep

626
00:32:43,090 --> 00:32:45,590
Speaker 2: families together and it will allow us to feel safer

627
00:32:45,650 --> 00:32:48,490
Speaker 2: because these people are getting the support and help they

628
00:32:48,510 --> 00:32:50,930
Speaker 2: need to create that change. And I know that a

629
00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:53,090
Speaker 2: lot of the argument is, oh, but not everybody's going

630
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:55,730
Speaker 2: to do that. We know that, right? And that's why

631
00:32:55,780 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: prisons need to exist. Like I needed to go to prison.

632
00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: I broke the law. So that's where you go. You

633
00:33:02,020 --> 00:33:04,510
Speaker 2: get your freedom taken from you. But when you come

634
00:33:04,590 --> 00:33:07,970
Speaker 2: out the other side, once you've served your time, that's

635
00:33:08,010 --> 00:33:12,650
Speaker 2: your punishment. Why are we continuing to punish people over

636
00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:15,860
Speaker 2: and over again for something that they've already paid their

637
00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:19,220
Speaker 2: dues to society for? And this is where employment is

638
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: a really difficult space to navigate because we became so

639
00:33:23,020 --> 00:33:26,700
Speaker 2: risk averse. I think it was in about 2000 where

640
00:33:27,220 --> 00:33:30,750
Speaker 2: big companies from America decided to bring in risk management

641
00:33:30,790 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: processes in HR. Yeah. And that included doing national police checks.

642
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: Right. So I wasn't aware of that.

643
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: It was in the 90s. No one ever asked you.

644
00:33:39,940 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: I remember going to an interview for a job and

645
00:33:42,460 --> 00:33:44,310
Speaker 2: someone saying, is there anything in your past we need

646
00:33:44,350 --> 00:33:44,930
Speaker 2: to know about?

647
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:45,290
Speaker 1: Yeah.

648
00:33:45,330 --> 00:33:49,290
Speaker 2: That was the conversation. That's what the conversation should still be.

649
00:33:49,370 --> 00:33:49,570
Speaker 1: Yeah.

650
00:33:50,150 --> 00:33:55,260
Speaker 2: Because that gives people an opportunity to go, yes, there's X, Y, Z, right?

651
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,900
Speaker 2: And we hope that they're honest and upfront and we

652
00:33:57,980 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: own our stuff. That's what we're going from that aspect.

653
00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:03,730
Speaker 2: But the people coming out of prison, it's not just

654
00:34:03,950 --> 00:34:06,709
Speaker 2: on employers to change the way that they hire. We

655
00:34:06,750 --> 00:34:09,069
Speaker 2: also need to give education to the people coming out

656
00:34:09,110 --> 00:34:11,370
Speaker 2: of prison. And that's what we do at SuccessWorks.

657
00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:13,870
Speaker 1: Okay. Well, let's get you out of prison so we

658
00:34:13,890 --> 00:34:17,390
Speaker 1: can get you into SuccessWorks. I'm going to open the

659
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:21,109
Speaker 1: prison gate and we're going to let you out. You've

660
00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:23,510
Speaker 1: done your time and I think you got the last

661
00:34:23,650 --> 00:34:28,029
Speaker 1: six months of your sentence, you were allowed to home detention. Yeah.

662
00:34:28,290 --> 00:34:33,350
Speaker 2: Yeah. So- Yeah, I did ankle bracelet home detention and

663
00:34:33,730 --> 00:34:38,490
Speaker 2: was allowed a re-entry into society in a really good way.

664
00:34:38,590 --> 00:34:41,290
Speaker 2: Like I am all for that program for those that

665
00:34:41,330 --> 00:34:43,430
Speaker 2: are ready and do the right thing. It can be

666
00:34:43,570 --> 00:34:48,230
Speaker 2: fantastic because when they open those gates and you walk out, again,

667
00:34:48,290 --> 00:34:51,469
Speaker 2: it's a little bit alienating. And it doesn't matter how

668
00:34:51,510 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 2: long that you've done. It's just you've come from this–

669
00:34:57,489 --> 00:35:00,370
Speaker 2: strange place and you're going back into your world. So

670
00:35:00,530 --> 00:35:03,790
Speaker 2: having that soft landing and that time to arrive. So

671
00:35:03,870 --> 00:35:05,910
Speaker 2: for me, I had all of those things. Like I

672
00:35:05,930 --> 00:35:10,770
Speaker 2: was just set up to win throughout this process. I

673
00:35:10,870 --> 00:35:14,530
Speaker 2: also had the ability to advocate for myself, to speak

674
00:35:14,590 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: for myself, to make inquiries around what was happening, to

675
00:35:18,780 --> 00:35:23,300
Speaker 2: know when not to speak up, to all of those things.

676
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 2: If you don't have that ability, that process... Yes, they

677
00:35:29,180 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: assist you with housing and application forms and all that

678
00:35:32,180 --> 00:35:34,860
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, but a lot of women are not

679
00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:39,129
Speaker 2: well enough to engage in that help. So they don't

680
00:35:39,190 --> 00:35:41,710
Speaker 2: speak up and they don't say that I'm going to

681
00:35:41,730 --> 00:35:44,170
Speaker 2: have nowhere to go. They make up an address.

682
00:35:44,510 --> 00:35:47,149
Speaker 1: Well enough or educated enough or articulate enough.

683
00:35:47,170 --> 00:35:51,110
Speaker 2: Yeah, all of those things. So our system only works

684
00:35:51,489 --> 00:35:54,689
Speaker 2: for those that can speak show up in that way.

685
00:35:55,150 --> 00:36:00,299
Speaker 1: So you've identified all the benefits or all the advantages

686
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: you had.

687
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: I had all the advantages.

688
00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:06,940
Speaker 1: From the time. And then how did you connect with SuccessWorks?

689
00:36:07,420 --> 00:36:10,219
Speaker 2: So when you exit prison, they give you a piece

690
00:36:10,260 --> 00:36:13,620
Speaker 2: of paper with services that support women that are coming

691
00:36:13,660 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 2: out of prison, all sorts of different supports. And whilst

692
00:36:16,890 --> 00:36:20,090
Speaker 2: I was on home detention, I called most of those services,

693
00:36:20,350 --> 00:36:23,219
Speaker 2: asked them what they did, and engage with them in

694
00:36:23,260 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: some way, shape or form, ask them if they were hiring.

695
00:36:25,180 --> 00:36:28,390
Speaker 2: I spoke a bit about my own experience and SuccessWorks

696
00:36:28,510 --> 00:36:30,870
Speaker 2: asked me to come and do their program. I said, sure,

697
00:36:30,890 --> 00:36:32,989
Speaker 2: I'll come and do your program because when you're wearing

698
00:36:33,010 --> 00:36:36,340
Speaker 2: an ankle bracelet, you need to have activities that you're

699
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,180
Speaker 2: doing to be able to leave the house. And it

700
00:36:38,219 --> 00:36:40,219
Speaker 2: was really important to get back out there. So I did,

701
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 2: I went and did their program and kind of after

702
00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:45,660
Speaker 2: the workshop said, look, I really don't need the support

703
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: that you're offering. I can do all of that stuff,

704
00:36:47,580 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: like the resume writing, cover letters, job search, all of

705
00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:55,260
Speaker 2: those things. But I really want to step into this space.

706
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 2: This is what I've experienced and this is the space

707
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,060
Speaker 2: that I'd love to work in. So I didn't hear

708
00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: from them for a while. And then I got an

709
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,700
Speaker 2: email and a phone call from one of my colleagues

710
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,330
Speaker 2: who I now work with. And she goes, oh, we're

711
00:37:08,370 --> 00:37:10,890
Speaker 2: about to hire and we'd really encourage you to apply.

712
00:37:10,910 --> 00:37:14,450
Speaker 2: There were two roles. I applied for them both. And

713
00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 2: I went to my interview for the actual job with

714
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 2: my ankle bracelet on and asked them, I said, oh,

715
00:37:19,820 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 2: do you want to know anything about my offending? And

716
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 2: they went, no, not interested. But it was part of

717
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 2: the requirements for the role to have experience with the

718
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: criminal justice system or the criminal legal system, whatever you

719
00:37:30,020 --> 00:37:34,170
Speaker 2: want to call it. And I then– my ankle bracelet

720
00:37:34,190 --> 00:37:39,739
Speaker 2: came off on the 10th of– July 2024, and on

721
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,690
Speaker 2: the 15th of July 2024, I started my role at

722
00:37:43,730 --> 00:37:47,350
Speaker 2: SuccessWorks Partners as the Employment and Training Program Coordinator.

723
00:37:47,950 --> 00:37:49,590
Speaker 1: How did it feel? First of all, how did it

724
00:37:49,630 --> 00:37:52,529
Speaker 1: feel with the ankle bracelet off?

725
00:37:52,690 --> 00:37:57,730
Speaker 2: It was pretty cool. I didn't mind wearing it. I wasn't–

726
00:37:57,890 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 2: the privilege was great, right, and I really embraced it

727
00:38:03,060 --> 00:38:04,819
Speaker 2: because I didn't think– I thought I was going to

728
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: be in prison for 15 months.

729
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:06,819
Speaker 1: Yeah.

730
00:38:07,650 --> 00:38:13,010
Speaker 2: So that freedom, I didn't care. And I had really

731
00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:18,589
Speaker 2: great offices that ran my program. They were really open, like,

732
00:38:18,890 --> 00:38:21,899
Speaker 2: you know, anything to do with health and fitness. So

733
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: I'd go beach walking every day, swim in the ocean,

734
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 2: and really got to do those things that kept me well.

735
00:38:27,860 --> 00:38:30,180
Speaker 1: So they were comfortable with you doing that.

736
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,660
Speaker 2: Yeah, so as long as they know where, so you'd

737
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,899
Speaker 2: have to show where you were going and then, you know,

738
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,089
Speaker 2: so that doesn't go off because you're out of. the

739
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: area that you're meant to be in and the time

740
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,700
Speaker 2: that you're going. So you have to report each week.

741
00:38:42,060 --> 00:38:44,500
Speaker 2: So you've got to be really organized. So it won't

742
00:38:44,540 --> 00:38:47,180
Speaker 2: work for somebody that's still in addiction and who's running

743
00:38:47,219 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: around and they release with an ankle bracelet. They're just

744
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 2: going to end up back in jail, right? And it's

745
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: a waste of the program, I feel. So I think

746
00:38:55,180 --> 00:38:58,129
Speaker 2: that assessment needs to be done properly that it will

747
00:38:58,190 --> 00:39:00,790
Speaker 2: benefit those that are ready to do the right thing.

748
00:39:01,410 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 1: With SuccessWorks. Just before we get into that stupid question,

749
00:39:06,340 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: but the ankle bracelets, because you make jewellery, do you

750
00:39:09,660 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 1: think they could design them in a better way?

751
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 2: Look, I thought about bejewelling my like sticky diamantes and

752
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,259
Speaker 2: stuff on it and then I just went, no, just

753
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,590
Speaker 2: leave it alone. Don't tamper with it. If that's the

754
00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:21,030
Speaker 2: price of the freedom that I had for those six months.

755
00:39:21,090 --> 00:39:21,549
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's small.

756
00:39:21,570 --> 00:39:22,489
Speaker 2: It's a very small price.

757
00:39:22,510 --> 00:39:26,390
Speaker 1: And look, on that, joking about it, I think that

758
00:39:26,930 --> 00:39:28,910
Speaker 1: we've got to look at those options too because we've

759
00:39:28,930 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: got the technology now. that virtually you could FaceTime everywhere

760
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,980
Speaker 1: you go. Absolutely. Yeah. These are the type of things

761
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,060
Speaker 1: that we've got to look at with the technology. How

762
00:39:38,100 --> 00:39:42,380
Speaker 1: can we improve corrective services or the judicial system?

763
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:42,580
Speaker 2: Yeah.

764
00:39:43,230 --> 00:39:46,050
Speaker 1: As long as we've got to take that mentality away,

765
00:39:46,219 --> 00:39:49,700
Speaker 1: that rage of we need these criminals punished because of that.

766
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,580
Speaker 1: And you identify the point, and I hadn't thought about that,

767
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:54,860
Speaker 1: when you were saying with the media we highlight the

768
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,300
Speaker 1: really bad ones. We only highlight them. There's no front

769
00:39:58,340 --> 00:40:01,310
Speaker 1: page or lead story about someone that's gone in for

770
00:40:01,330 --> 00:40:03,870
Speaker 1: a minor offence and in for six months prison. You

771
00:40:03,890 --> 00:40:04,430
Speaker 1: never hear about that.

772
00:40:04,450 --> 00:40:08,390
Speaker 2: And lost everything and was trying to defend themselves so

773
00:40:08,410 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: that they could survive from their partner or whatever the

774
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: situation was, right? We don't hear those stories.

775
00:40:14,540 --> 00:40:17,219
Speaker 1: No. So every time we hear a story about people

776
00:40:17,260 --> 00:40:19,820
Speaker 1: going into jail, it's usually a horrific crime.

777
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:23,790
Speaker 2: Or it's sensationalized. Like I look at my media articles

778
00:40:23,830 --> 00:40:25,410
Speaker 2: and I just have to laugh.

779
00:40:27,150 --> 00:40:29,770
Speaker 1: I was looking through some of the articles. I should

780
00:40:29,790 --> 00:40:31,290
Speaker 1: have brought it out now that you've raised it, but

781
00:40:31,310 --> 00:40:32,549
Speaker 1: I thought, no, I won't embarrass you.

782
00:40:32,730 --> 00:40:34,730
Speaker 2: No, I don't care. I put them on my, they're

783
00:40:34,770 --> 00:40:35,590
Speaker 2: on my Instagram.

784
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:36,090
Speaker 1: Right. Okay.

785
00:40:36,140 --> 00:40:39,660
Speaker 2: And I took photos of the main pages. I had

786
00:40:40,469 --> 00:40:44,069
Speaker 2: You either take accountability of it all and own the

787
00:40:44,110 --> 00:40:47,469
Speaker 2: cringe as well because it's part of it, right? And

788
00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:52,569
Speaker 2: I don't believe that people that have been convicted of

789
00:40:52,910 --> 00:40:56,350
Speaker 2: a crime should not have any privacy rights. I don't

790
00:40:56,469 --> 00:40:59,790
Speaker 2: believe that what we do with that is okay. And

791
00:40:59,850 --> 00:41:02,350
Speaker 2: I believe that the media should speak to the actual

792
00:41:02,390 --> 00:41:06,890
Speaker 2: person rather than write from the facts in court. and

793
00:41:06,930 --> 00:41:09,410
Speaker 2: sensationalise it, right? I think there should be a little

794
00:41:09,430 --> 00:41:12,649
Speaker 2: bit more accountability around how those reports are written.

795
00:41:12,750 --> 00:41:14,910
Speaker 1: It's not black and white. You've got to look at

796
00:41:14,930 --> 00:41:16,380
Speaker 1: it from all different perspectives.

797
00:41:16,530 --> 00:41:18,940
Speaker 2: You do. And life's not black and white and people

798
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 2: definitely are not, right? And if you're trying to live

799
00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 2: life doing black and white and popping everybody in these

800
00:41:26,460 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: two boxes, it's a really painful place to be.

801
00:41:30,540 --> 00:41:32,950
Speaker 1: So if we get back to SuccessWorks, I had a

802
00:41:32,969 --> 00:41:39,750
Speaker 1: look and it some strategies that SuccessWorks employment support. Talk

803
00:41:39,770 --> 00:41:40,230
Speaker 1: us through that.

804
00:41:40,489 --> 00:41:44,910
Speaker 2: Okay. So basically at SuccessWorks, we support women. It is

805
00:41:45,350 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 2: just for women only, our program, who have a criminal history.

806
00:41:48,340 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 2: So it doesn't mean you have to have gone to prison.

807
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,460
Speaker 2: It's anybody that has a record. And then that record

808
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 2: is impacting how they're able to gain employment. My role, firstly,

809
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:02,870
Speaker 2: I'll go into, I support the women through a work

810
00:42:02,910 --> 00:42:07,109
Speaker 2: readiness program. with my colleagues as well, but I do

811
00:42:07,150 --> 00:42:09,770
Speaker 2: the part about disclosure and how to show up when

812
00:42:09,830 --> 00:42:12,910
Speaker 2: to disclose, when not to, how you can approach an

813
00:42:12,989 --> 00:42:15,469
Speaker 2: employer if there is a police check required and you

814
00:42:15,489 --> 00:42:17,790
Speaker 2: feel you'd like to disclose. So we teach them how

815
00:42:17,810 --> 00:42:20,969
Speaker 2: to not trauma dump, right, because the worst thing that

816
00:42:21,530 --> 00:42:24,010
Speaker 2: could happen is so you want to tell your story

817
00:42:24,570 --> 00:42:28,009
Speaker 2: but suddenly you just blurt everything out from an unnecessary thing.

818
00:42:28,050 --> 00:42:31,969
Speaker 2: So don't belong in a professional settings. So we really

819
00:42:32,010 --> 00:42:32,569
Speaker 2: work on that.

820
00:42:33,140 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: Would that be something like I'm declaring to the potential

821
00:42:36,940 --> 00:42:40,739
Speaker 1: employer that I've got a criminal history and instead of saying, look,

822
00:42:41,340 --> 00:42:44,180
Speaker 1: two years ago or six months ago, I got in trouble.

823
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,450
Speaker 1: It was a fraud related offence and I did time.

824
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,860
Speaker 1: I regret what I did. And instead of going, well,

825
00:42:51,610 --> 00:42:54,890
Speaker 1: I had this and I can imagine them spilling out

826
00:42:54,930 --> 00:42:58,470
Speaker 1: way too much. You should just keep a sanitised version

827
00:42:58,530 --> 00:43:00,790
Speaker 1: of it and explain yourself that way. Absolutely.

828
00:43:01,130 --> 00:43:05,730
Speaker 2: And we want able to, if you want to show

829
00:43:05,790 --> 00:43:09,010
Speaker 2: that you've created change, you need to own your shit.

830
00:43:09,210 --> 00:43:09,390
Speaker 1: Yeah.

831
00:43:09,870 --> 00:43:11,780
Speaker 2: Excuse my language, but you do, you need to own it.

832
00:43:12,170 --> 00:43:14,630
Speaker 2: And we don't mean you need to own what happened

833
00:43:14,670 --> 00:43:19,230
Speaker 2: to you because some records have to do, they're the victim,

834
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:21,790
Speaker 2: something horrible happened to them. We're not asking you to

835
00:43:21,890 --> 00:43:26,029
Speaker 2: own the incident or the occurrence. You need to own

836
00:43:26,050 --> 00:43:28,170
Speaker 2: that you now have a criminal history and that that

837
00:43:28,210 --> 00:43:31,950
Speaker 2: is part of your journey and you need to To

838
00:43:32,070 --> 00:43:36,020
Speaker 2: allow people to have their judgments around it.

839
00:43:36,270 --> 00:43:36,729
Speaker 1: Yep. Right?

840
00:43:36,910 --> 00:43:38,790
Speaker 2: And their own stories that they make up. But you

841
00:43:38,850 --> 00:43:41,370
Speaker 2: need to be able to own it and present yourself

842
00:43:41,989 --> 00:43:43,630
Speaker 2: to an employer, let's say.

843
00:43:43,650 --> 00:43:43,730
Speaker 1: Yeah.

844
00:43:45,670 --> 00:43:48,750
Speaker 2: Without making excuses and to show who you are today.

845
00:43:49,210 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right?

846
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,460
Speaker 2: Because I could imagine if- It's about accountability.

847
00:43:52,900 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: That's the word. Potentially an employer, if you're seeing there going,

848
00:43:56,300 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: I was charged, but the cops loaded me up. I didn't. Yeah.

849
00:44:00,260 --> 00:44:03,299
Speaker 1: And I'd be sitting there thinking, well, you haven't really

850
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: taken responsibility.

851
00:44:05,540 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 2: You've just nailed it. So that's kind of what we

852
00:44:07,940 --> 00:44:12,060
Speaker 2: work with the women with. We have women that do

853
00:44:12,100 --> 00:44:15,100
Speaker 2: not want to. There's so much trauma attached to their record.

854
00:44:15,140 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: They don't want to do disclosure and turnaround talks. We

855
00:44:18,020 --> 00:44:20,850
Speaker 2: call them turnaround talks. And that's okay too. But it

856
00:44:20,910 --> 00:44:25,189
Speaker 2: obviously then minimizes the pool of opportunity. I, in my role,

857
00:44:25,230 --> 00:44:27,910
Speaker 2: also work with employers. So I go out and I advocate.

858
00:44:28,820 --> 00:44:33,330
Speaker 2: I connect with different businesses and employers and anyone within

859
00:44:33,890 --> 00:44:36,069
Speaker 2: New South Wales because we support women all over New

860
00:44:36,090 --> 00:44:41,430
Speaker 2: South Wales and sit down and ask them how they hire,

861
00:44:41,489 --> 00:44:45,219
Speaker 2: what their practices are, what is their risk management and

862
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 2: have an honest conversation around it. and see how we

863
00:44:48,739 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 2: can maybe make that more inclusive.

864
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,819
Speaker 1: Are you getting people buying into that? Because I could

865
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:57,109
Speaker 1: see the organisations thinking there could be a lot. Not

866
00:44:57,190 --> 00:45:00,390
Speaker 1: only are we doing something good for society, because that's

867
00:45:00,469 --> 00:45:03,569
Speaker 1: a tick the box, but if you've got people that

868
00:45:03,590 --> 00:45:06,540
Speaker 1: are grateful for a job, they're going to work very

869
00:45:06,580 --> 00:45:07,180
Speaker 1: hard for you.

870
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 2: They do.

871
00:45:07,620 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: And they want to prove themselves. There could be a

872
00:45:10,060 --> 00:45:11,700
Speaker 1: lot of benefits from hiring.

873
00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:16,910
Speaker 2: Absolutely, there's benefits. And from... we look for meaningful employment

874
00:45:16,950 --> 00:45:20,270
Speaker 2: for our women because employment itself is great, but just

875
00:45:20,350 --> 00:45:23,210
Speaker 2: a job might be okay for a while. It's about

876
00:45:23,270 --> 00:45:26,980
Speaker 2: having that purpose because it's about creating, it's part of

877
00:45:27,020 --> 00:45:31,460
Speaker 2: that change journey. A person that finds meaningful employment and

878
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,779
Speaker 2: is given a chance when they have had that many

879
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,549
Speaker 2: rejections over and over again, or haven't even been seen

880
00:45:37,890 --> 00:45:41,210
Speaker 2: because the police check is required, it's a tick box

881
00:45:41,330 --> 00:45:44,670
Speaker 2: or it's a drop down menu or it's, Something that

882
00:45:44,770 --> 00:45:48,310
Speaker 2: does not, it's so disheartening, right? So you've put in

883
00:45:48,370 --> 00:45:51,220
Speaker 2: all the work, you've done your counselling, you've finished parole,

884
00:45:51,260 --> 00:45:53,779
Speaker 2: you've done all of these things and now you just

885
00:45:53,820 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 2: want to get a job?

886
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

887
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:56,940
Speaker 2: Because you got your kids back, you want to buy

888
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 2: them Christmas presents and be able to provide for your

889
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,300
Speaker 2: family because you're a single mum and you just keep

890
00:46:02,460 --> 00:46:05,989
Speaker 2: getting told no. You don't get a look in at

891
00:46:06,110 --> 00:46:12,190
Speaker 2: all because of these pre-screening selection processes. That woman who

892
00:46:12,230 --> 00:46:15,259
Speaker 2: is then given a chance- because she stood up and went,

893
00:46:15,340 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: I have a record and I'd like to do my

894
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,650
Speaker 2: turnaround talk or show you my turnaround packet of the

895
00:46:21,690 --> 00:46:24,210
Speaker 2: things that I've achieved and who I am today. And

896
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:27,569
Speaker 2: then that employee gives her a job. She will show up,

897
00:46:28,250 --> 00:46:33,290
Speaker 2: she will lift employee performance and will bring facets to

898
00:46:33,330 --> 00:46:36,210
Speaker 2: your team that you didn't even know were there. And

899
00:46:36,270 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: that is what we've experienced. So to take it back

900
00:46:40,260 --> 00:46:43,489
Speaker 2: to kind of recidivism rate, New South Wales has a

901
00:46:43,530 --> 00:46:48,110
Speaker 2: recidivism rate of around 50%. SuccessWorks has a recidivism rate

902
00:46:48,310 --> 00:46:49,370
Speaker 2: of about 11%.

903
00:46:49,370 --> 00:46:53,810
Speaker 1: Once they've got that employment pointed in the right direction.

904
00:46:53,950 --> 00:46:59,819
Speaker 2: And also the growth and the exposure to a different environment,

905
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:03,739
Speaker 2: a safe environment, learning new skills, the support that we

906
00:47:03,780 --> 00:47:06,980
Speaker 2: continue to give them so we don't just do the

907
00:47:07,020 --> 00:47:09,900
Speaker 2: work readiness, match them with an employer.

908
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

909
00:47:10,469 --> 00:47:12,589
Speaker 2: If we have that employment or help them find their

910
00:47:12,630 --> 00:47:13,210
Speaker 2: own employment.

911
00:47:13,250 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: You stay in contact with them.

912
00:47:14,989 --> 00:47:15,589
Speaker 2: Yes, we do.

913
00:47:16,219 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 1: That's important because we all have low moments and if

914
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,580
Speaker 1: you've gone down a bad path sometimes in that low moment,

915
00:47:22,620 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: stuff it. I'm going back to what I know best.

916
00:47:25,300 --> 00:47:28,430
Speaker 2: And we also have a volunteer mentor program. So women

917
00:47:28,510 --> 00:47:32,730
Speaker 2: from all walks of life and from different industries volunteer

918
00:47:32,770 --> 00:47:35,609
Speaker 2: their time to mentor our women. And they are given

919
00:47:35,650 --> 00:47:38,700
Speaker 2: training and then it's a six-month mentorship program. where they

920
00:47:38,739 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 2: support our women on their employment search journey with resume writing,

921
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,540
Speaker 2: interview skills, all that kind of that stuff. And it's

922
00:47:46,660 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 2: also a connection to the community that these women may

923
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 2: not have had before.

924
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: That would be rewarding both.

925
00:47:51,820 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 2: Ways, wouldn't it?

926
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,860
Speaker 1: It is. I would imagine people get a lot from

927
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:01,330
Speaker 1: helping someone like that. The education component, do you encourage people?

928
00:48:01,550 --> 00:48:02,529
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we do.

929
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:06,990
Speaker 1: And I often– I cringe when we– have the state

930
00:48:07,010 --> 00:48:09,210
Speaker 1: elections and you get tougher and more in order, we're

931
00:48:09,230 --> 00:48:10,569
Speaker 1: going to get more police and we're going to make

932
00:48:10,630 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: tougher laws, put the money into education. Because I think education,

933
00:48:16,100 --> 00:48:19,700
Speaker 1: not only it helps employment, but I think it gives people,

934
00:48:20,140 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 1: they start to respect themselves, their dignity is restored.

935
00:48:23,940 --> 00:48:31,590
Speaker 2: And for us, our women, we solely focus on employment.

936
00:48:31,670 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 2: It's our main, it's what we do. But Our women

937
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 2: come with so many different layers of different needs and

938
00:48:40,100 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 2: wants and readiness factors as well. And we find that,

939
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,460
Speaker 2: you know, if they are not really stable in a

940
00:48:48,500 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 2: home or don't have somewhere consistent to sleep, it's really

941
00:48:52,219 --> 00:48:55,110
Speaker 2: hard to show up for an interview on time or

942
00:48:55,140 --> 00:49:00,169
Speaker 2: those kinds of things. And when 50% or, yeah, half

943
00:49:00,190 --> 00:49:03,330
Speaker 2: of the women that are released are released into homelessness...

944
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,060
Speaker 2: How do we support them with that? So we refer

945
00:49:07,180 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: out to other services. But, you know, we've got a

946
00:49:10,620 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 2: crisis here around housing, which is massive. And if we

947
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,900
Speaker 2: can help the women find somewhere safe to live and

948
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:25,779
Speaker 2: then provide employment pathways that are inclusive where people are

949
00:49:25,820 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: not judged for their past but on what they're doing now,

950
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,189
Speaker 2: if they go and do a TAFE course and get

951
00:49:32,250 --> 00:49:37,209
Speaker 2: the qualification, let's open the door for them. Because my

952
00:49:37,270 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 2: question is always what risk– Are we trying to manage

953
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,140
Speaker 2: that doesn't also come with someone that doesn't have a record?

954
00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: And if somebody can answer that for me, because who

955
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,620
Speaker 2: I'm hiring without a criminal history, I just don't get

956
00:49:52,660 --> 00:49:54,669
Speaker 2: that piece of paper that tells me what they once

957
00:49:54,730 --> 00:49:57,950
Speaker 2: did or may have done or where they've been. I

958
00:49:59,450 --> 00:50:02,029
Speaker 2: don't know where they've been. They might come into my

959
00:50:02,090 --> 00:50:05,410
Speaker 2: business and rob me. Whereas the person that you're giving

960
00:50:05,469 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 2: a chance is not going to commit a crime in

961
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 2: your business.

962
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: Right?

963
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 2: Whereas the person that you don't know and doesn't have

964
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 2: a record could more than likely do that to you

965
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 2: and you won't even know.

966
00:50:16,660 --> 00:50:19,009
Speaker 1: The person that's come in with a record, they know

967
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:22,570
Speaker 1: eyes are going to be on them. You call it

968
00:50:22,590 --> 00:50:27,230
Speaker 1: the turnaround package. Is that a formal terminology or is

969
00:50:27,250 --> 00:50:27,589
Speaker 1: that just.

970
00:50:27,770 --> 00:50:33,300
Speaker 2: It's something that we've adopted. We've just created a guide

971
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 2: on how to recruit women with a record and we

972
00:50:36,500 --> 00:50:39,420
Speaker 2: use the terminology in there. I found it on an

973
00:50:39,460 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 2: American website that does that. And I love the terminology

974
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 2: around it. So Turnaround Talk and a Turnaround Package. And

975
00:50:46,420 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 2: a Turnaround Package is having like all your educational pieces

976
00:50:50,620 --> 00:50:55,589
Speaker 2: in there, your psychologist evaluation, a reference from somebody saying,

977
00:50:56,590 --> 00:51:00,230
Speaker 2: I know that you said you made a reference, having

978
00:51:00,250 --> 00:51:03,390
Speaker 2: that reference in there from somebody that, you know, they're

979
00:51:03,410 --> 00:51:04,770
Speaker 2: going to go, oh, yeah, that's great, right?

980
00:51:04,890 --> 00:51:05,150
Speaker 1: Right.

981
00:51:05,790 --> 00:51:08,950
Speaker 2: And being able to present that with your resume or

982
00:51:09,110 --> 00:51:13,380
Speaker 2: at the interview or at the point in time where

983
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,180
Speaker 2: before they do the police check.

984
00:51:15,219 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: And it gives them something tangible walking in and they

985
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: can actually see it by just getting that put together.

986
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,490
Speaker 1: Funding for running this, where's that coming from?

987
00:51:24,510 --> 00:51:29,069
Speaker 2: So we're a non-for-profit. Yep. We have government grants and

988
00:51:29,850 --> 00:51:35,109
Speaker 2: also philanthropic funding. But, you know, we're a small niche organisation.

989
00:51:35,130 --> 00:51:35,230
Speaker 1: Yeah.

990
00:51:36,010 --> 00:51:39,230
Speaker 2: And it's tough for us to get funding and we

991
00:51:39,270 --> 00:51:41,290
Speaker 2: fall through the cracks. And if you look at, I'm

992
00:51:41,310 --> 00:51:44,250
Speaker 2: going to take it back to the $ 180, 000 a year

993
00:51:44,290 --> 00:51:49,850
Speaker 2: for one woman in prison. Yeah. Right? It takes $ 11, 000

994
00:51:48,730 --> 00:51:51,390
Speaker 2: to put a woman through our program, to engage a

995
00:51:51,410 --> 00:51:52,110
Speaker 2: woman in our program.

996
00:51:52,310 --> 00:51:55,330
Speaker 1: Well, then if you fall back on those statistics, 50%

997
00:51:55,330 --> 00:51:58,950
Speaker 1: recidivism without going through your program and it drops down

998
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,779
Speaker 1: to 11%. I'm not an accountant, but I can see

999
00:52:01,900 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: this is, yeah, it makes sense.

1000
00:52:03,420 --> 00:52:06,460
Speaker 2: It's a no-brainer. So- And I know that a lot

1001
00:52:06,540 --> 00:52:10,500
Speaker 2: of frontline organisations like us, we really struggle because we're

1002
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:15,390
Speaker 2: small and we're not everybody's cup of tea, right? We

1003
00:52:15,450 --> 00:52:19,989
Speaker 2: fall through those cracks with funding. And it's not for

1004
00:52:20,030 --> 00:52:23,370
Speaker 2: lack of trying. We have part of our team that

1005
00:52:23,450 --> 00:52:26,970
Speaker 2: do apply for grants on a regular basis. We're always

1006
00:52:27,010 --> 00:52:31,050
Speaker 2: looking for funding. And what I love, probably the most

1007
00:52:31,110 --> 00:52:33,770
Speaker 2: about SuccessWorks. In the two years that I've been here,

1008
00:52:33,870 --> 00:52:40,190
Speaker 2: we have grown as an organisation and we not only go, okay, employers,

1009
00:52:40,210 --> 00:52:43,009
Speaker 2: we want you to open your doors, hire women, be

1010
00:52:43,050 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 2: more inclusive, we'll support you through that process. We're the

1011
00:52:45,700 --> 00:52:49,900
Speaker 2: experts in that space. But we've created a social enterprise

1012
00:52:50,420 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 2: test and tagging service. So it's an electrical compliance service

1013
00:52:54,340 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 2: and we hire the women first.

1014
00:52:55,770 --> 00:52:59,089
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're getting them qualified so they can go

1015
00:52:59,110 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: around and test the leads and electrical equipment in offices.

1016
00:53:02,540 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 2: And for women that have no previous work experience, have

1017
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:11,020
Speaker 2: never been in a workplace, that mainstream employment space is scary.

1018
00:53:11,739 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 2: It eats them up, chews them up, spits them out.

1019
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:20,780
Speaker 2: And so giving them this inclusive space where we support

1020
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,990
Speaker 2: them and encourage teach them as well, some work readiness

1021
00:53:25,030 --> 00:53:28,850
Speaker 2: skills as well, workplace etiquette, all those things that we

1022
00:53:28,870 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: take for granted who have had, I've had lots of

1023
00:53:31,180 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 2: jobs in my time.

1024
00:53:32,020 --> 00:53:32,259
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1025
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 2: I've worked in lots of different countries. So I know

1026
00:53:34,500 --> 00:53:35,540
Speaker 2: what belongs.

1027
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: How to turn up and present. Yeah.

1028
00:53:37,300 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 2: They don't. They've never been taught this and it can

1029
00:53:40,700 --> 00:53:45,090
Speaker 2: be really alienating, especially if you're not a 16-year-old or

1030
00:53:45,130 --> 00:53:49,110
Speaker 2: a 17-year-old. You're a mum, a middle-aged woman, and you

1031
00:53:49,250 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 2: don't know how to show up in a workplace that

1032
00:53:51,260 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 2: can bring shame, embarrassment, all those things. So what we've

1033
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:58,379
Speaker 2: created is a space where these women can learn and

1034
00:53:58,440 --> 00:53:58,859
Speaker 2: earn money.

1035
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,540
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're adopting a holistic approach to it.

1036
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 1: We do. It's not just point them in a direction. No.

1037
00:54:06,140 --> 00:54:10,709
Speaker 1: I like the fact that you're advocating with organisations to

1038
00:54:11,350 --> 00:54:14,469
Speaker 1: look at the potential there as a work market that

1039
00:54:14,570 --> 00:54:18,430
Speaker 1: might be beneficial to the organisation. That's an important thing.

1040
00:54:19,460 --> 00:54:22,570
Speaker 1: Very early, and it changed my thinking when I started

1041
00:54:22,610 --> 00:54:24,649
Speaker 1: the podcast. So we're going back about five or six

1042
00:54:24,670 --> 00:54:28,310
Speaker 1: years ago. I had Steve Fenwick from Fruit to Work

1043
00:54:29,989 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: down in Victoria. And he pointed out a couple of

1044
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,660
Speaker 1: things to me that I hadn't even appreciated. But just

1045
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: they were hiring people for six months after they got

1046
00:54:42,219 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 1: out of prison so they could help prepare to go

1047
00:54:45,489 --> 00:54:48,439
Speaker 1: get a job. and simple things like you just said,

1048
00:54:48,500 --> 00:54:52,299
Speaker 1: how they present for the interview. He was saying that, yeah,

1049
00:54:52,890 --> 00:54:55,219
Speaker 1: have a shower, tidy yourself up, wear a good set

1050
00:54:55,820 --> 00:54:58,810
Speaker 1: of clothes, little things like that that we take for granted.

1051
00:54:59,170 --> 00:55:02,710
Speaker 1: But if you've been in custody or disadvantaged for a

1052
00:55:03,210 --> 00:55:05,569
Speaker 1: lot of different reasons, these are the little things that

1053
00:55:05,810 --> 00:55:09,850
Speaker 1: you might consider. But I like the idea. I think

1054
00:55:09,890 --> 00:55:10,609
Speaker 1: it's a great idea.

1055
00:55:10,770 --> 00:55:14,090
Speaker 2: You know, the fact that for me, with my employment journey,

1056
00:55:16,050 --> 00:55:20,470
Speaker 2: Finding purpose in prison on I want to work within

1057
00:55:20,510 --> 00:55:22,750
Speaker 2: this space, there has to be more done for women

1058
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:25,310
Speaker 2: that have been incarcerated. What that looks like, I had

1059
00:55:25,390 --> 00:55:28,469
Speaker 2: no idea. But that's what drove me when I came

1060
00:55:28,590 --> 00:55:31,359
Speaker 2: out and having that diploma in counselling just really kind

1061
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,940
Speaker 2: of opened up the opportunities for me. So it was

1062
00:55:35,020 --> 00:55:39,460
Speaker 2: perfect timing around that. And my extensive work history obviously

1063
00:55:39,500 --> 00:55:41,739
Speaker 2: helps with all the different things that I've done and

1064
00:55:41,860 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 2: I can– you know, the different industries and I don't

1065
00:55:44,580 --> 00:55:46,420
Speaker 2: have to learn from scratch because I'm not from a

1066
00:55:46,500 --> 00:55:51,800
Speaker 2: recruitment background. And we're not a recruitment agency. We support

1067
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:59,350
Speaker 2: women and employers to change the way that they're hired

1068
00:55:59,510 --> 00:56:03,790
Speaker 2: and that they hire, right? And we really, it's tough

1069
00:56:03,850 --> 00:56:06,870
Speaker 2: because people are time poor, people are risk adverse. And

1070
00:56:06,969 --> 00:56:11,629
Speaker 2: we sometimes have, you know, a hiring manager that just goes, yeah, absolutely.

1071
00:56:11,670 --> 00:56:14,190
Speaker 2: I want to get on board with this. And then

1072
00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:15,529
Speaker 2: the top goes, no.

1073
00:56:15,570 --> 00:56:16,819
Speaker 1: No, we're not going to take that risk.

1074
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,260
Speaker 2: No, we can't. And it's, you don't even get the

1075
00:56:20,900 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 2: conversation with them.

1076
00:56:21,980 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1077
00:56:22,660 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 2: And that is probably the hardest bit of my role is,

1078
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,450
Speaker 2: am I talking to the right person within that organization?

1079
00:56:30,330 --> 00:56:34,489
Speaker 2: And how then also do they put it into practice?

1080
00:56:34,750 --> 00:56:35,350
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right?

1081
00:56:35,469 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 2: Because yes. We're giving you a skilled employee who's going

1082
00:56:41,739 --> 00:56:44,280
Speaker 2: to show up, do the job, but they do come

1083
00:56:44,380 --> 00:56:49,259
Speaker 2: with other multifaceted side of things and probably need a

1084
00:56:49,300 --> 00:56:53,430
Speaker 2: little bit of extra support, which we'll give you, them

1085
00:56:53,610 --> 00:56:57,910
Speaker 2: and you as the employer. But because we're time poor, again,

1086
00:56:58,170 --> 00:57:05,330
Speaker 2: those things sometimes don't happen, right? Yeah. So it's about finding...

1087
00:57:06,330 --> 00:57:08,050
Speaker 2: This is what I've learned over the last two years.

1088
00:57:08,090 --> 00:57:12,860
Speaker 2: It's about finding employers that really want to create that inclusion,

1089
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,540
Speaker 2: that know that it takes more than just a conversation

1090
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 2: with us, that they get their whole entire team on board.

1091
00:57:22,220 --> 00:57:28,470
Speaker 2: And our redefining recruitment guide that we've just launched has

1092
00:57:28,530 --> 00:57:32,050
Speaker 2: a training package as well with it, a training day,

1093
00:57:32,330 --> 00:57:38,939
Speaker 2: and it's for– HR, executives, hiring managers, just employers who

1094
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 2: run their own business, to have a think about where

1095
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 2: they sit too. Because something that I've realized as well,

1096
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:48,260
Speaker 2: if we don't address our own biases around how we

1097
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 2: feel about the people that go to prison or have

1098
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:55,070
Speaker 2: a record, we can't be inclusive around it. And we

1099
00:57:55,090 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 2: need to sit down and go, why do I feel

1100
00:57:57,370 --> 00:58:01,590
Speaker 2: that way? Where does that bias come from? Is it realistic?

1101
00:58:01,770 --> 00:58:04,250
Speaker 2: Is it based on my own experiences? And we're not

1102
00:58:04,290 --> 00:58:06,930
Speaker 2: telling you that anything is right or wrong, but let's

1103
00:58:06,970 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 2: look into it. And then I would prefer for a

1104
00:58:09,700 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 2: hiring manager or an exec to go, I don't want

1105
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,780
Speaker 2: to do this because it doesn't sit right with me.

1106
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,180
Speaker 2: Then someone just not responding back.

1107
00:58:20,220 --> 00:58:23,230
Speaker 1: Let's say you're encouraging to at least have a look

1108
00:58:23,290 --> 00:58:26,390
Speaker 1: at it and hear us out and what can be

1109
00:58:26,410 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: lost from it.

1110
00:58:27,350 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 2: And we're not. peddling you problems, we're giving you employees

1111
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,580
Speaker 2: that will show up and they will apply for the

1112
00:58:35,620 --> 00:58:40,900
Speaker 2: role and go through the process. We're just asking to have,

1113
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:46,550
Speaker 2: let's look at the systems that we've created that exclude,

1114
00:58:47,170 --> 00:58:49,210
Speaker 2: and not just people with a record, but people with

1115
00:58:49,270 --> 00:58:52,230
Speaker 2: a disability, people with a mental illness, all those things.

1116
00:58:54,010 --> 00:58:54,650
Speaker 2: prevent people from the systems.

1117
00:58:54,670 --> 00:58:56,990
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you see a lot of money spent on

1118
00:58:57,030 --> 00:59:00,940
Speaker 1: advertising hiring people with disabilities. You see that, which is

1119
00:59:00,980 --> 00:59:06,390
Speaker 1: a great initiative as well. Look, I'm impressed by what

1120
00:59:06,430 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 1: you're doing. I really agree with it. If you The

1121
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:13,700
Speaker 1: way we fight crime just doesn't seem right to me.

1122
00:59:13,740 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 1: And that sounds like it must be a pretty stupid

1123
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:18,780
Speaker 1: person because I worked in the cops for 30 years.

1124
00:59:18,900 --> 00:59:23,610
Speaker 1: But I think we can do better. I really do. Yeah.

1125
00:59:23,690 --> 00:59:26,570
Speaker 1: We try to get smart on crime instead of tough

1126
00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:30,270
Speaker 1: on crime. And recidivism. We don't want people going back

1127
00:59:30,310 --> 00:59:33,730
Speaker 1: to jail. If jail worked for you, you went to

1128
00:59:33,770 --> 00:59:35,970
Speaker 1: jail and you've come out a different person.

1129
00:59:36,330 --> 00:59:38,290
Speaker 2: But not because of what I did in there.

1130
00:59:38,310 --> 00:59:39,340
Speaker 1: Not because of what you did.

1131
00:59:39,350 --> 00:59:41,630
Speaker 2: Or what they offered me in there, right? And that's

1132
00:59:41,730 --> 00:59:45,210
Speaker 2: the thing. There is time in there for both men

1133
00:59:45,250 --> 00:59:51,410
Speaker 2: and women to be engaged in not just prison-run programs

1134
00:59:51,470 --> 00:59:56,460
Speaker 2: but externally run programs, education being taken in there and

1135
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 2: given to them while they're in that space so that

1136
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 2: when they then exit, there's also then a pathway and

1137
01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 2: an employer that is open to hiring them. So there

1138
01:00:07,580 --> 01:00:11,430
Speaker 2: needs to be a whole flow through. And for some reason,

1139
01:00:11,510 --> 01:00:15,130
Speaker 2: it seems like everybody that goes into the prisons to

1140
01:00:15,250 --> 01:00:19,870
Speaker 2: deliver programs is then at some point locked out again

1141
01:00:19,890 --> 01:00:23,170
Speaker 2: and it doesn't continue or they can't come in or,

1142
01:00:23,470 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 2: you know, there's all these barriers. I know it's not simple.

1143
01:00:26,990 --> 01:00:30,990
Speaker 2: But if we can start utilising that time, and I

1144
01:00:31,070 --> 01:00:35,189
Speaker 2: think you guys with the men's program were saying, so

1145
01:00:35,230 --> 01:00:39,010
Speaker 2: the guys that were perpetrators of domestic violence, they go

1146
01:00:39,030 --> 01:00:41,350
Speaker 2: into prison and there's all these other blokes that do

1147
01:00:41,390 --> 01:00:44,330
Speaker 2: the same and they sit around for 10 months together

1148
01:00:44,350 --> 01:00:46,390
Speaker 2: and tell each other how great that they are and

1149
01:00:46,430 --> 01:00:48,660
Speaker 2: that they've done nothing wrong and they come out and

1150
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 2: they do the same thing again.

1151
01:00:49,910 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: I think that's a recipe for disaster. If I'm sitting

1152
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: in a cell and I'm inside because I breached an

1153
01:00:54,740 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: AVO because of my relationship and I'm sitting in the

1154
01:00:58,020 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 1: cell with someone else that's done that. We spend 10

1155
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,820
Speaker 1: months complaining and getting angry and angry and then they

1156
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:04,620
Speaker 1: let us out.

1157
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:08,060
Speaker 2: It's the same with women that have committed a crime

1158
01:01:08,380 --> 01:01:11,419
Speaker 2: or they're in there for drugs or whatever that they're

1159
01:01:11,460 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 2: engaging in and then they're in there with all those

1160
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 2: other women that are doing exactly the same thing. And

1161
01:01:16,980 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 2: what happens is they all congregate together in their little groups.

1162
01:01:22,300 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 2: If you don't have the wellness within yourself and the

1163
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:31,420
Speaker 2: ability to go, that's not what I want anymore, you're

1164
01:01:31,460 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 2: not going to– it doesn't work like that. We're not

1165
01:01:33,980 --> 01:01:38,780
Speaker 2: giving these women that want different or men anything else.

1166
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,620
Speaker 2: And like you said, out at Macquarie, they did that well.

1167
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 2: They were doing that. There are some prisons that do

1168
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,310
Speaker 2: it really well, but we need to do it throughout

1169
01:01:46,410 --> 01:01:46,910
Speaker 2: all of them.

1170
01:01:47,210 --> 01:01:51,410
Speaker 1: And look at it from all different ways of dealing

1171
01:01:51,430 --> 01:01:53,470
Speaker 1: with it. It's not the one– thing is going to

1172
01:01:53,510 --> 01:01:59,250
Speaker 1: fix everything. What you're doing post-prison with the people that

1173
01:01:59,270 --> 01:02:02,910
Speaker 1: have been released with employment and everything else, that needs

1174
01:02:02,950 --> 01:02:05,910
Speaker 1: to start. Well, you've identified start before you even go

1175
01:02:05,930 --> 01:02:06,430
Speaker 1: into prison.

1176
01:02:06,470 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

1177
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:11,140
Speaker 1: Continue through prison and then outside the prison. And I

1178
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,060
Speaker 1: know when I was doing that Breaking Badness series with

1179
01:02:14,100 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 1: Macquarie Correctional Centre, one of the concerns were, okay, if

1180
01:02:18,100 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 1: they get it right in prison, but then when they

1181
01:02:20,380 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 1: get let out, We haven't got the pathway set up

1182
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: for them to succeed outside of prison.

1183
01:02:26,500 --> 01:02:29,020
Speaker 2: So they go back to what they know. And if

1184
01:02:29,060 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 2: you don't have– there's these points in the journey of change.

1185
01:02:33,420 --> 01:02:38,670
Speaker 2: Because imagine– so I lived my life for 30 years

1186
01:02:39,470 --> 01:02:43,710
Speaker 2: in that space, right, out of making choices from that

1187
01:02:43,750 --> 01:02:47,390
Speaker 2: trauma or whatever it was to unlearn that 30 years

1188
01:02:47,610 --> 01:02:51,690
Speaker 2: of acting, right? This stuff takes time.

1189
01:02:51,710 --> 01:02:52,410
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1190
01:02:52,450 --> 01:02:54,890
Speaker 2: You don't always get it right the first time. So

1191
01:02:55,710 --> 01:02:58,450
Speaker 2: if we, every time that someone has a, I'm going

1192
01:02:58,470 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 2: to call it a slip, lock them back up, we're

1193
01:03:00,980 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 2: putting them right back all the way and probably taking,

1194
01:03:04,460 --> 01:03:08,060
Speaker 2: we're stripping a little bit of change off them every

1195
01:03:08,100 --> 01:03:09,380
Speaker 2: single time that we do that.

1196
01:03:09,460 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1197
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,330
Speaker 2: If they are then told, okay, we see that you've

1198
01:03:13,350 --> 01:03:15,950
Speaker 2: done all of this, right, we're giving you merit for

1199
01:03:16,010 --> 01:03:18,430
Speaker 2: all this work that you've done, We've seen you slip,

1200
01:03:18,510 --> 01:03:20,590
Speaker 2: but we're going to support you here because we want

1201
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 2: you to become a member of society again, a community,

1202
01:03:24,620 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 2: and be safe and well and all of kind of that.

1203
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:29,460
Speaker 2: People are more likely to succeed.

1204
01:03:29,740 --> 01:03:32,220
Speaker 1: Talking money, I never thought about tax when I was

1205
01:03:32,260 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: a cop because the tax was taken out before you

1206
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 1: got paid. Now working for myself as a company, I

1207
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 1: get paid, then you've got to give the money back

1208
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:42,930
Speaker 1: to the government. I am starting to question where our

1209
01:03:42,970 --> 01:03:43,350
Speaker 1: money goes.

1210
01:03:43,370 --> 01:03:45,250
Speaker 2: I want to know where it goes, right? And if

1211
01:03:45,310 --> 01:03:46,070
Speaker 2: I look at those figures.

1212
01:03:46,090 --> 01:03:47,090
Speaker 1: They need to be accountable.

1213
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:50,300
Speaker 2: And then corrective services is an industry.

1214
01:03:50,610 --> 01:03:51,340
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1215
01:03:51,570 --> 01:03:56,690
Speaker 2: It generates revenue. So we're paying tax to incarcerate these

1216
01:03:56,730 --> 01:04:00,930
Speaker 2: people and that revenue that's generated is used as well.

1217
01:04:01,350 --> 01:04:06,510
Speaker 2: So what's wrong here? There's something really wrong here in

1218
01:04:06,630 --> 01:04:09,950
Speaker 2: how we think that prison is a solution to anything.

1219
01:04:10,330 --> 01:04:13,130
Speaker 1: Privatisation of prisons, what the hell is that about? You

1220
01:04:13,930 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 1: set up a business and we can make money out

1221
01:04:16,180 --> 01:04:20,780
Speaker 1: of keeping people in cages. That never washed with me. Look,

1222
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:24,420
Speaker 1: I think finishing up the points we're trying to get across,

1223
01:04:25,220 --> 01:04:29,530
Speaker 1: as an ex-cop, you're someone that's done time in prison.

1224
01:04:30,010 --> 01:04:32,750
Speaker 1: We're saying we could do it better. Yes, we could.

1225
01:04:32,810 --> 01:04:34,910
Speaker 1: We could do it better. And let's think outside the

1226
01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:37,730
Speaker 1: square a little bit because I do get frustrated with

1227
01:04:38,010 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 1: these conversations in that It does seem simple. There are

1228
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,260
Speaker 1: solutions here, but we just keep going down. And if

1229
01:04:45,300 --> 01:04:48,050
Speaker 1: we keep doing the same thing the same way, we're

1230
01:04:48,070 --> 01:04:50,990
Speaker 1: going to get the same result. So let's flip it. Yeah.

1231
01:04:51,190 --> 01:04:53,730
Speaker 2: And just as a final kind of thought from me

1232
01:04:53,810 --> 01:04:57,010
Speaker 2: to anybody that really, you know, just goes, oh, them

1233
01:04:57,070 --> 01:05:02,110
Speaker 2: people to prisoners. Imagine you're 20 years old, have a

1234
01:05:02,130 --> 01:05:04,870
Speaker 2: couple of drinks, you get in the car and you

1235
01:05:04,910 --> 01:05:09,460
Speaker 2: run someone over, right? You're 20. It's a mistake. It's

1236
01:05:09,500 --> 01:05:11,580
Speaker 2: the worst time of your life. You get locked up.

1237
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 2: You get taken out of society. And on your police check,

1238
01:05:15,740 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 2: when you get out 15 years later and the world

1239
01:05:17,820 --> 01:05:24,100
Speaker 2: has completely changed, it says murderer, murder. So the context

1240
01:05:24,620 --> 01:05:29,110
Speaker 2: around what is on that police check is what is important.

1241
01:05:29,890 --> 01:05:33,170
Speaker 2: It is so important that we understand the human being

1242
01:05:33,590 --> 01:05:36,110
Speaker 2: and what led them to that. And there's some really

1243
01:05:36,150 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 2: good things that, you know, we can, kind of judge

1244
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 2: change on it's somebody that hasn't done any work doesn't

1245
01:05:43,460 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 2: have a turnaround talk or a turnaround packet because all

1246
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 2: they can do is talk about the offenses they have

1247
01:05:49,060 --> 01:05:53,490
Speaker 2: nothing else to show and somebody that doesn't that has

1248
01:05:53,570 --> 01:05:58,130
Speaker 2: repeatedly offended right yes they have but if they've got

1249
01:05:58,190 --> 01:06:00,990
Speaker 2: time up and in that time they can show that

1250
01:06:01,010 --> 01:06:04,250
Speaker 2: they've done so many different things isn't that what counts

1251
01:06:05,410 --> 01:06:08,010
Speaker 2: isn't that what we should be judging people on because

1252
01:06:08,450 --> 01:06:11,090
Speaker 2: When they come to get a job, and I'm taking

1253
01:06:11,110 --> 01:06:14,130
Speaker 2: it back to employment, we're judging them on who they're

1254
01:06:14,150 --> 01:06:17,710
Speaker 2: going to show up at, work as, right, what skills

1255
01:06:17,750 --> 01:06:22,189
Speaker 2: they bring to the table, their resume, their experience, their

1256
01:06:22,270 --> 01:06:26,750
Speaker 2: willingness to be open and communicate and all those kinds

1257
01:06:26,790 --> 01:06:30,590
Speaker 2: of things. That's what we need too. That moment in time,

1258
01:06:31,770 --> 01:06:33,910
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to be judged on that. How would

1259
01:06:33,950 --> 01:06:36,190
Speaker 2: you feel to be judged as a murderer for the

1260
01:06:36,230 --> 01:06:38,170
Speaker 2: rest of your life by one mistake that you made?

1261
01:06:38,740 --> 01:06:41,030
Speaker 2: Wouldn't you want people to give you a second chance

1262
01:06:41,130 --> 01:06:41,830
Speaker 2: and a fair go?

1263
01:06:43,110 --> 01:06:48,250
Speaker 1: Makes sense. Convince me. I'm sold.

1264
01:06:48,290 --> 01:06:49,250
Speaker 2: I think you already were.

1265
01:06:50,270 --> 01:06:53,050
Speaker 1: I'd never considered that until I got a criminal record. Now,

1266
01:06:53,190 --> 01:06:56,690
Speaker 1: when I'm filling out forms, I'm going, oh, yeah, like

1267
01:06:56,850 --> 01:06:59,910
Speaker 1: it is. And I think I know when I've had

1268
01:06:59,950 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: to tick the box, I want to explain, but hold it, let's...

1269
01:07:03,870 --> 01:07:06,100
Speaker 1: But you don't have that opportunity. You're just marked. Have

1270
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 1: you been convicted of it?

1271
01:07:07,260 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 2: And that's what we're trying to teach the general employment

1272
01:07:12,380 --> 01:07:17,420
Speaker 2: community is please don't have that pre-screening. Allow people to

1273
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:19,510
Speaker 2: showcase who they are today. And the ones that don't

1274
01:07:19,550 --> 01:07:22,570
Speaker 2: want to, they won't apply anyway. So that pre-screening is

1275
01:07:22,650 --> 01:07:25,930
Speaker 2: really you are not allowing someone access to something that

1276
01:07:25,970 --> 01:07:27,270
Speaker 2: they probably really need.

1277
01:07:27,430 --> 01:07:33,640
Speaker 1: You seem very content, no regrets, and this is life's journey.

1278
01:07:34,060 --> 01:07:37,439
Speaker 2: It is. And to being able to speak and use

1279
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:41,620
Speaker 2: my story and the twists and turns and the experiences

1280
01:07:41,660 --> 01:07:46,010
Speaker 2: that I've had to create change in the world, how

1281
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:48,050
Speaker 2: privileged am I? That's amazing.

1282
01:07:48,610 --> 01:07:51,170
Speaker 1: That's a very nice way to finish.

1283
01:07:51,310 --> 01:07:51,790
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1284
01:07:52,290 --> 01:07:55,550
Speaker 1: All the best for the future and keep up the

1285
01:07:55,590 --> 01:07:58,990
Speaker 1: work because it makes society a better place. So good

1286
01:07:59,050 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 1: on you.

1287
01:07:59,210 --> 01:08:00,230
Speaker 2: Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you.

1288
01:08:01,110 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 1: Thank you.