Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.
Speaker 1: Peter Dutton is now on TikTok and his first post
Speaker 1: was about as inspiring as you might imagine.
Speaker 2: I know, my first TikTok is supposed to be something fun,
Speaker 2: and I probably should say something that is or isn't demure.
Speaker 2: But I really joined TikTok for one reason. It's to
Speaker 2: tell you that we did not have to live in
Speaker 2: a country where you spend your whole life renting.
Speaker 1: It's easy to see this as a case of Steve's
Speaker 1: Bashemi with a skateboard trying to appeal to the kids,
Speaker 1: but it's also a sign of a broader trend among
Speaker 1: Australian politicians around a third of them more on TikTok,
Speaker 1: with more likely to join. Peter Dutton's move to TikTok
Speaker 1: is especially curious beyond his use of the word demure.
Speaker 1: It signals that he's made a calculation that getting votes
Speaker 1: is more important than any security concerns about the company.
Speaker 1: Today special correspondent for the Saturday Paper, Jason Cottsugus on
Speaker 1: whether TikTok is actually a threat or just an opportunity
Speaker 1: for political embarrassment. It's Monday, September twenty three. Hello Jason,
Speaker 1: how are you today, Rigby?
Speaker 3: I am very well.
Speaker 1: Nice to have you back on the show. So, Jason,
Speaker 1: I recently watched Peter Dutton's first attempt at TikTok and
Speaker 1: I have some questions. The big one is why why
Speaker 1: does he or I guess his advisors, why do they
Speaker 1: think that this is a good idea?
Speaker 3: Well, I think, firstly, this is a huge audience that
Speaker 3: are on TikTok. I think it's about ten million Australians,
Speaker 3: almost thirty seven percent of the whole Australian population. It
Speaker 3: tends to be Australians who are in that eighteen to
Speaker 3: thirty six age group, and that's an audience that Peter
Speaker 3: Dutton can't afford to ignore. In the twenty twenty two election,
Speaker 3: the Labour Party used TikTok very effectively and the Coalition
Speaker 3: knows that, and they know that they need to play
Speaker 3: catch up here.
Speaker 1: Okay, but it's still a gamble, I suppose, in the
Speaker 1: sense that it has to work to be successful. So
Speaker 1: do you think that it's even possible for someone like
Speaker 1: Peter Dutton, a politician in his fifties, with this fairly
Speaker 1: stiff public persona to actually do well on TikTok.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a really good question because Peter Dutton's
Speaker 3: got quite a severe look and he's not a natural
Speaker 3: when it comes to talking on camera. He doesn't convey
Speaker 3: that warmth and kind of humor that comes so easily
Speaker 3: to other politicians.
Speaker 4: A lot of criticism over my rejection of putting pineapple
Speaker 4: on pizza, and I'm not backing away from it, not
Speaker 4: one iota. Pineapple doesn't belong on pieza, but there are
Speaker 4: three things.
Speaker 3: So I think Peter Dutton's team would be looking to
Speaker 3: David christ of Fully, the leader of the L ANDP
Speaker 3: in Queensland, who has used social media very effectively in
Speaker 3: the last few months and he's very likely to win
Speaker 3: the upcoming state election on October twenty six. Even more
Speaker 3: relevant is the new Prime Minister of New Zealand, Christopher Luxen.
Speaker 3: He's a bald conservative, not particularly photogenic politician who also
Speaker 3: used TikTok very successfully in his campaign last year.
Speaker 5: Everyone get ready with me for another day on the
Speaker 5: campaign trail.
Speaker 2: My morning starts first with the shit the choices of
Speaker 2: White Blue.
Speaker 3: I think Christopher luckson, you know, he's got those awkward
Speaker 3: personality traits perhaps that Peter Dutton has, and he was
Speaker 3: able to overcome that post videos of himself getting dressed.
Speaker 3: There was one video where he's talking about, you know,
Speaker 3: skin care for his bald head.
Speaker 4: A lot of you have said to me, lot, Chris,
Speaker 4: you're a good looking, bold man.
Speaker 5: How do you keep your skin in such good condition?
Speaker 2: All at these two tricks in my skin key ragime,
Speaker 2: I have a daily moisturizer.
Speaker 3: And you know, he was able to really make fun
Speaker 3: of himself in a way that endeared him to New
Speaker 3: Zealand voters. So I think there's form there, and Peter
Speaker 3: Dutton's team have clearly decided that he can try and
Speaker 3: do the same thing. He might seem awkward, but I
Speaker 3: guess he's just trying to be himself and that's probably
Speaker 3: the best thing that he can do, because if he
Speaker 3: tried to contrive some other sort of personality, then I
Speaker 3: think that would be even worse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the kids would be all over that. Okay, So
Speaker 1: Peter Dutton, he's not trying to be anything that he is,
Speaker 1: and he's not alone in embracing TikTok. Tell me a
Speaker 1: bit about what other federal politicians are doing on the platform.
Speaker 3: The person with the most followers is Green's housing spokesman,
Speaker 3: Max Chandler Mayther.
Speaker 6: So, if you're like me and you've left making your
Speaker 6: rental submission to the last minute, I'm going to talk
Speaker 6: you through how to make one some of my experiences
Speaker 6: as a renter, and why it's so important that you
Speaker 6: make a submission so submissions close.
Speaker 3: He's got over one hundred and sixty thousand followers. I
Speaker 3: guess that's perhaps not so surprising. He's in the target
Speaker 3: sort of TikTok age group, and he's also the housing spokesman.
Speaker 3: This is probably the hottest issue on TikTok too.
Speaker 6: He said that we would have to ask permission to
Speaker 6: use the yard or hang up our clothes in the yard,
Speaker 6: and would have to constantly ask his permission to do that. Obviously,
Speaker 6: we were never going to sign a contract like that.
Speaker 3: And then you know Labour's Julian Hill, who's been very
Speaker 3: outspoken about his embrace of TikTok for quite a long time.
Speaker 3: He's got the second highest number of followers at over
Speaker 3: one hundred and forty three thousand. The liberal MP with
Speaker 3: the highest number of followers is Michael Suoker, he's the
Speaker 3: coalition's housing spokesman. He's only got six thousand followers. And
Speaker 3: then you know, by way of comparison, you know some
Speaker 3: of the independents of managing to sort of build strong
Speaker 3: audience as well. Pauline Hanson's got around eighty thousand followers,
Speaker 3: Jackie Lamby about thirty thousand followers, and Monic Ryan, the
Speaker 3: TLMP who's the member for Kuyong, she's built an audience
Speaker 3: of fifty one thousand followers. But there's one federal parliamentarian
Speaker 3: with by far and away the most momentum on TikTok
Speaker 3: right now, and that's Fatima Payment. She is, of course,
Speaker 3: the West Australian senator who defected from the Labor Party
Speaker 3: over their stance on Gaza and is now sitting in
Speaker 3: the Senate as an independent.
Speaker 5: To the Sigmas of Australia, I say that this Goofier
Speaker 5: government have been capping not just now but for a
Speaker 5: long time a few of you.
Speaker 3: Since then, she's built a following of over ninety five
Speaker 3: thousand people, and that's largely thanks to a video of
Speaker 3: this very unusual speech she gave in the Senate, which
Speaker 3: has sort of become known as the Skibberty speech.
Speaker 5: If that becomes law, you can forgore skull emoji all
Speaker 5: about watching Juke Dennis or catching a dub with the
Speaker 5: bros on fot chat. Is this Prime Minister serious?
Speaker 6: It was?
Speaker 3: This a two minute speech filled with Internet slang, which
Speaker 3: she says is used by jen Z. But I wouldn't
Speaker 3: know that because I didn't understand a single word she
Speaker 3: was saying. But it's attracted this incredible audience. I think
Speaker 3: it's got about forty million views so far. It's notable
Speaker 3: that the Prime Minister Anthony Albanezi is not on TikTok,
Speaker 3: and it's going to be really interesting to see if
Speaker 3: and when he joins the platform, because I think the
Speaker 3: fact that Peter Dutton has decided to be on there
Speaker 3: despite the Liberal Party's long running opposition to TikTok, tells
Speaker 3: us calculation has been made and that no matter what
Speaker 3: the security concerns are, there's just too many people watching it.
Speaker 3: You cannot ignore that audience.
Speaker 1: Coming up after the break the Coalition's anti TikTok history
Speaker 1: and the star advisor to Anthony Albernezi who now works
Speaker 1: for TikTok Jason. There are more than a billion active
Speaker 1: monthly users on TikTok, and accordingly it's becoming this hugely
Speaker 1: important campaigning tool, including in Australia. You've been tracking its
Speaker 1: use by politicians here. But at the same time, there
Speaker 1: have been these security concerns about TikTok, so can you
Speaker 1: tell me about that.
Speaker 3: That's right. So TikTok is of course owned by a
Speaker 3: Chinese company called byte Dance, and there has been this
Speaker 3: concern that the Chinese government can force byte Dance to
Speaker 3: hand over any of the very valuable data that TikTok
Speaker 3: collects from its users. So, you know, responding to those concerns,
Speaker 3: in April last year, the Attorney General Mark Dreyfus announced
Speaker 3: that there would be an immediate ban on TikTok being
Speaker 3: used on any government supplied device. You know, he was
Speaker 3: acting on advice that he had received from Australian intelligence
Speaker 3: and security agencies that there's a high chance, in their view,
Speaker 3: that Biddance is collecting all the data of TikTok users
Speaker 3: and possibly passing it on to the Chinese government if
Speaker 3: the Chinese government wants that data, and they're trying to
Speaker 3: guard against that by saying that anyone who wants to
Speaker 3: use TikTok has to do so on a separate phone,
Speaker 3: essentially a burner phone. And it's worth adding that it's
Speaker 3: not just the Australian government who are worried about this.
Speaker 3: India ban TikTok in twenty twenty. The United Kingdom, Canada
Speaker 3: and New Zealand many other countries in Europe also don't
Speaker 3: allow TikTok on government or politicians' devices. And then, of course,
Speaker 3: in April this year, US President Joe Biden signed a
Speaker 3: law that would ban TikTok in the US unless it's
Speaker 3: diver tested from its parent company, byte Dance within the year.
Speaker 3: And I think if we put a time clock on that,
Speaker 3: it's about within the next four months if this law
Speaker 3: is not overturned, and byte Dance would have to divest
Speaker 3: TikTok if it wants to remain active in the United States.
Speaker 3: TikTok is appealing this law. They're urging a US federal
Speaker 3: appeals court to overturn it. The irony, of course, is
Speaker 3: that they're making this argument that Joe Biden's law infringes
Speaker 3: TikTok's free speech, and you know it's ironic. Given that
Speaker 3: TikTok is owned by a Chinese company and there's no
Speaker 3: freedom of speech in China.
Speaker 1: Okay, So banning TikTok on government vhones is one thing,
Speaker 1: but a total ban, like what might come into play
Speaker 1: in the US, is a much more drastic step. So
Speaker 1: is there support for something like that in Australia.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, the strongest critics of TikTok have come
Speaker 3: from within Peter Dutton's own party. Opposition Home Affairs spokesperson
Speaker 3: James Patterson has been a strident critic of TikTok. He's
Speaker 3: also been very critical of other ways in which he
Speaker 3: feels that China is trying to compromise Australian security, and
Speaker 3: he has said that if the US successfully forces TikTok
Speaker 3: to be divested from ByteDance, that Australia should seek to
Speaker 3: do the same. You know, he was most critical of
Speaker 3: TikTok back in March this year. That's a good six
Speaker 3: months before Peter Dunton decided to get on board, and
Speaker 3: it's perhaps not surprising that we haven't heard him in
Speaker 3: the last few weeks being as critical of TikTok or
Speaker 3: raising any of the concerns that he's raised previously. I
Speaker 3: think given that both Labor and the Coalition agree that
Speaker 3: TikTok poses a security risk to Commonwealth agencies and government
Speaker 3: employees and MPs, it remains to be seen how the
Speaker 3: US court case will influence the Australian government's decision on
Speaker 3: whether or not to ban the platform here in Australia.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how is TikTok handling this this blowback from
Speaker 1: various governments and the prospect of bans.
Speaker 3: Well in Australia, they are advertising. So if you drive
Speaker 3: to Cambra Airport, as all politicians do when they're leaving
Speaker 3: Canberra at the end of a sitting week, there's a
Speaker 3: huge billboard there which is advertising TikTok and all of
Speaker 3: the ways in which it helps Australians, particularly small business owners,
Speaker 3: market their products. They're also doing a lot of lobbying
Speaker 3: during this year. They hired Sabina Hussick. They added her
Speaker 3: to their government relations or lobbying team. Sabina Hussick is
Speaker 3: of course the sister of Ed Husick, the Federal Minister
Speaker 3: for Industry, a very senior cabinet minister. Sabina also has
Speaker 3: her own very strong tires in Canberra to the Labor Party.
Speaker 3: She's a former deputy chief of staff to Anthony Alberanezi
Speaker 3: when he was opposition leader. She was also a key
Speaker 3: operative over many years to the former Victorian Labor Premier
Speaker 3: Dan Andrews. She's a very well connected Labor Party operative
Speaker 3: and she's now also likely to be a very well
Speaker 3: paid lobbyist working on behalf of TikTok around the country.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, it'll be interesting to see what effect that
Speaker 1: appointment might have. But regardless, Jason, we're in this situation
Speaker 1: where there are real security concerns around the use of TikTok,
Speaker 1: raised by both the government and the opposition. In spite
Speaker 1: of that, we're seeing more and more politicians getting their
Speaker 1: bonafhones and getting on TikTok anyway, chasing every last vote.
Speaker 1: So I suppose the bigger question here is should these
Speaker 1: politicians be doing this given that this is an app
Speaker 1: affiliated with a foreign guy in a country where there
Speaker 1: is no free speech.
Speaker 3: So if we put aside TikTok's legal troubles in the
Speaker 3: United States and whether or not the Chinese government wants
Speaker 3: to harvest the data that TikTok collects and use it
Speaker 3: for its own purposes. The US government would say its
Speaker 3: own nefarious purposes. One security expert that I spoke to said,
Speaker 3: perhaps the real question here is should we even be
Speaker 3: on TikTok in the first place? What are the principles
Speaker 3: involved here? And his argument to me was that at
Speaker 3: the end of the day, TikTok is a town hall
Speaker 3: environment where not everybody is welcome. And he's asking the
Speaker 3: question of Australian politicians and Australian citizens, are they comfortable
Speaker 3: getting onto a platform where Hong Kong protesters, Tibetans, Muslims
Speaker 3: from Western China, or anyone else that's been critical of
Speaker 3: China and its human rights record is not welcome. And
Speaker 3: this person put it to me that his simple view
Speaker 3: was that Australians and Australian politicians just should not be
Speaker 3: on TikTok on principle.
Speaker 1: Jason, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Ruby, as always, it's great to talk. Thanks very much.
Speaker 1: Also in the news today, three Aboriginal police officers have
Speaker 1: lodged a complaint with the Human Rights Commission alleging racial vilification,
Speaker 1: derision and unequal pay by the Northern Territory Police over
Speaker 1: a twenty year period for their work as Aboriginal community
Speaker 1: police officers. The Northern Territories Police Commissioner Michael Murphy didn't
Speaker 1: directly comment on the complaint, but has reiterated his commitment
Speaker 1: to cultural reform in anti police following his public apology
Speaker 1: to First Nations Territorians at the Gama Festival earlier this year.
Speaker 1: And a sixty five year old man has been arrested
Speaker 1: in Rome over the weekend over the alleged murder of
Speaker 1: two women in Collingwood, Melbourne. In nineteen seventy seven, twenty
Speaker 1: seven year old Suzanne Armstrong and twenty eight year old
Speaker 1: Susan Bartlett were found stabbed multiple times in a shocking
Speaker 1: double murder that has come to be known as the
Speaker 1: Easy Street murders. Homicide detectives have been trying to solve
Speaker 1: the case for almost fifty years, making it the longest
Speaker 1: cold case in the state. Victorian Police Commissioner Shane Patten
Speaker 1: says police intend to charge the man with two counts
Speaker 1: of murder and one charge of rape. He says he
Speaker 1: hopes the arrest brings the women's families closer to the
Speaker 1: answers they deserve. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am,
Speaker 1: thanks for listening,