WEBVTT - TikTok politics: Very demure, very Dutton

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>Peter Dutton is now on TikTok and his first post

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<v Speaker 1>was about as inspiring as you might imagine.

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<v Speaker 2>I know, my first TikTok is supposed to be something fun,

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<v Speaker 2>and I probably should say something that is or isn't demure.

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<v Speaker 2>But I really joined TikTok for one reason. It's to

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<v Speaker 2>tell you that we did not have to live in

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<v Speaker 2>a country where you spend your whole life renting.

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<v Speaker 1>It's easy to see this as a case of Steve's

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<v Speaker 1>Bashemi with a skateboard trying to appeal to the kids,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's also a sign of a broader trend among

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<v Speaker 1>Australian politicians around a third of them more on TikTok,

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<v Speaker 1>with more likely to join. Peter Dutton's move to TikTok

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<v Speaker 1>is especially curious beyond his use of the word demure.

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<v Speaker 1>It signals that he's made a calculation that getting votes

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<v Speaker 1>is more important than any security concerns about the company.

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<v Speaker 1>Today special correspondent for the Saturday Paper, Jason Cottsugus on

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<v Speaker 1>whether TikTok is actually a threat or just an opportunity

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<v Speaker 1>for political embarrassment. It's Monday, September twenty three. Hello Jason,

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<v Speaker 1>how are you today, Rigby?

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<v Speaker 3>I am very well.

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<v Speaker 1>Nice to have you back on the show. So, Jason,

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<v Speaker 1>I recently watched Peter Dutton's first attempt at TikTok and

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<v Speaker 1>I have some questions. The big one is why why

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<v Speaker 1>does he or I guess his advisors, why do they

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<v Speaker 1>think that this is a good idea?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think, firstly, this is a huge audience that

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<v Speaker 3>are on TikTok. I think it's about ten million Australians,

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<v Speaker 3>almost thirty seven percent of the whole Australian population. It

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<v Speaker 3>tends to be Australians who are in that eighteen to

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<v Speaker 3>thirty six age group, and that's an audience that Peter

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<v Speaker 3>Dutton can't afford to ignore. In the twenty twenty two election,

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<v Speaker 3>the Labour Party used TikTok very effectively and the Coalition

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<v Speaker 3>knows that, and they know that they need to play

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<v Speaker 3>catch up here.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, but it's still a gamble, I suppose, in the

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<v Speaker 1>sense that it has to work to be successful. So

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<v Speaker 1>do you think that it's even possible for someone like

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<v Speaker 1>Peter Dutton, a politician in his fifties, with this fairly

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<v Speaker 1>stiff public persona to actually do well on TikTok.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this is a really good question because Peter Dutton's

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<v Speaker 3>got quite a severe look and he's not a natural

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<v Speaker 3>when it comes to talking on camera. He doesn't convey

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<v Speaker 3>that warmth and kind of humor that comes so easily

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<v Speaker 3>to other politicians.

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<v Speaker 4>A lot of criticism over my rejection of putting pineapple

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<v Speaker 4>on pizza, and I'm not backing away from it, not

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<v Speaker 4>one iota. Pineapple doesn't belong on pieza, but there are

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<v Speaker 4>three things.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think Peter Dutton's team would be looking to

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<v Speaker 3>David christ of Fully, the leader of the L ANDP

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<v Speaker 3>in Queensland, who has used social media very effectively in

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<v Speaker 3>the last few months and he's very likely to win

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<v Speaker 3>the upcoming state election on October twenty six. Even more

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<v Speaker 3>relevant is the new Prime Minister of New Zealand, Christopher Luxen.

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<v Speaker 3>He's a bald conservative, not particularly photogenic politician who also

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<v Speaker 3>used TikTok very successfully in his campaign last year.

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<v Speaker 5>Everyone get ready with me for another day on the

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<v Speaker 5>campaign trail.

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<v Speaker 2>My morning starts first with the shit the choices of

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<v Speaker 2>White Blue.

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<v Speaker 3>I think Christopher luckson, you know, he's got those awkward

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<v Speaker 3>personality traits perhaps that Peter Dutton has, and he was

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<v Speaker 3>able to overcome that post videos of himself getting dressed.

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<v Speaker 3>There was one video where he's talking about, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>skin care for his bald head.

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<v Speaker 4>A lot of you have said to me, lot, Chris,

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<v Speaker 4>you're a good looking, bold man.

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<v Speaker 5>How do you keep your skin in such good condition?

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<v Speaker 2>All at these two tricks in my skin key ragime,

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<v Speaker 2>I have a daily moisturizer.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know, he was able to really make fun

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<v Speaker 3>of himself in a way that endeared him to New

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<v Speaker 3>Zealand voters. So I think there's form there, and Peter

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<v Speaker 3>Dutton's team have clearly decided that he can try and

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<v Speaker 3>do the same thing. He might seem awkward, but I

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<v Speaker 3>guess he's just trying to be himself and that's probably

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<v Speaker 3>the best thing that he can do, because if he

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<v Speaker 3>tried to contrive some other sort of personality, then I

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<v Speaker 3>think that would be even worse.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the kids would be all over that. Okay, So

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<v Speaker 1>Peter Dutton, he's not trying to be anything that he is,

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<v Speaker 1>and he's not alone in embracing TikTok. Tell me a

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<v Speaker 1>bit about what other federal politicians are doing on the platform.

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<v Speaker 3>The person with the most followers is Green's housing spokesman,

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<v Speaker 3>Max Chandler Mayther.

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<v Speaker 6>So, if you're like me and you've left making your

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<v Speaker 6>rental submission to the last minute, I'm going to talk

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<v Speaker 6>you through how to make one some of my experiences

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<v Speaker 6>as a renter, and why it's so important that you

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<v Speaker 6>make a submission so submissions close.

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<v Speaker 3>He's got over one hundred and sixty thousand followers. I

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<v Speaker 3>guess that's perhaps not so surprising. He's in the target

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<v Speaker 3>sort of TikTok age group, and he's also the housing spokesman.

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<v Speaker 3>This is probably the hottest issue on TikTok too.

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<v Speaker 6>He said that we would have to ask permission to

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<v Speaker 6>use the yard or hang up our clothes in the yard,

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<v Speaker 6>and would have to constantly ask his permission to do that. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 6>we were never going to sign a contract like that.

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<v Speaker 3>And then you know Labour's Julian Hill, who's been very

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<v Speaker 3>outspoken about his embrace of TikTok for quite a long time.

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<v Speaker 3>He's got the second highest number of followers at over

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<v Speaker 3>one hundred and forty three thousand. The liberal MP with

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<v Speaker 3>the highest number of followers is Michael Suoker, he's the

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<v Speaker 3>coalition's housing spokesman. He's only got six thousand followers. And

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<v Speaker 3>then you know, by way of comparison, you know some

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<v Speaker 3>of the independents of managing to sort of build strong

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<v Speaker 3>audience as well. Pauline Hanson's got around eighty thousand followers,

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<v Speaker 3>Jackie Lamby about thirty thousand followers, and Monic Ryan, the

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<v Speaker 3>TLMP who's the member for Kuyong, she's built an audience

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<v Speaker 3>of fifty one thousand followers. But there's one federal parliamentarian

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<v Speaker 3>with by far and away the most momentum on TikTok

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<v Speaker 3>right now, and that's Fatima Payment. She is, of course,

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<v Speaker 3>the West Australian senator who defected from the Labor Party

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<v Speaker 3>over their stance on Gaza and is now sitting in

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<v Speaker 3>the Senate as an independent.

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<v Speaker 5>To the Sigmas of Australia, I say that this Goofier

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<v Speaker 5>government have been capping not just now but for a

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<v Speaker 5>long time a few of you.

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<v Speaker 3>Since then, she's built a following of over ninety five

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<v Speaker 3>thousand people, and that's largely thanks to a video of

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<v Speaker 3>this very unusual speech she gave in the Senate, which

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<v Speaker 3>has sort of become known as the Skibberty speech.

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<v Speaker 5>If that becomes law, you can forgore skull emoji all

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<v Speaker 5>about watching Juke Dennis or catching a dub with the

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<v Speaker 5>bros on fot chat. Is this Prime Minister serious?

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<v Speaker 6>It was?

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<v Speaker 3>This a two minute speech filled with Internet slang, which

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<v Speaker 3>she says is used by jen Z. But I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 3>know that because I didn't understand a single word she

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<v Speaker 3>was saying. But it's attracted this incredible audience. I think

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<v Speaker 3>it's got about forty million views so far. It's notable

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<v Speaker 3>that the Prime Minister Anthony Albanezi is not on TikTok,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's going to be really interesting to see if

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<v Speaker 3>and when he joins the platform, because I think the

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<v Speaker 3>fact that Peter Dutton has decided to be on there

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<v Speaker 3>despite the Liberal Party's long running opposition to TikTok, tells

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<v Speaker 3>us calculation has been made and that no matter what

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<v Speaker 3>the security concerns are, there's just too many people watching it.

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<v Speaker 3>You cannot ignore that audience.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up after the break the Coalition's anti TikTok history

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<v Speaker 1>and the star advisor to Anthony Albernezi who now works

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<v Speaker 1>for TikTok Jason. There are more than a billion active

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<v Speaker 1>monthly users on TikTok, and accordingly it's becoming this hugely

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<v Speaker 1>important campaigning tool, including in Australia. You've been tracking its

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<v Speaker 1>use by politicians here. But at the same time, there

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<v Speaker 1>have been these security concerns about TikTok, so can you

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<v Speaker 1>tell me about that.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right. So TikTok is of course owned by a

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<v Speaker 3>Chinese company called byte Dance, and there has been this

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<v Speaker 3>concern that the Chinese government can force byte Dance to

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<v Speaker 3>hand over any of the very valuable data that TikTok

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<v Speaker 3>collects from its users. So, you know, responding to those concerns,

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<v Speaker 3>in April last year, the Attorney General Mark Dreyfus announced

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<v Speaker 3>that there would be an immediate ban on TikTok being

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<v Speaker 3>used on any government supplied device. You know, he was

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<v Speaker 3>acting on advice that he had received from Australian intelligence

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<v Speaker 3>and security agencies that there's a high chance, in their view,

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<v Speaker 3>that Biddance is collecting all the data of TikTok users

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<v Speaker 3>and possibly passing it on to the Chinese government if

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<v Speaker 3>the Chinese government wants that data, and they're trying to

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<v Speaker 3>guard against that by saying that anyone who wants to

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<v Speaker 3>use TikTok has to do so on a separate phone,

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<v Speaker 3>essentially a burner phone. And it's worth adding that it's

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<v Speaker 3>not just the Australian government who are worried about this.

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<v Speaker 3>India ban TikTok in twenty twenty. The United Kingdom, Canada

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<v Speaker 3>and New Zealand many other countries in Europe also don't

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<v Speaker 3>allow TikTok on government or politicians' devices. And then, of course,

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<v Speaker 3>in April this year, US President Joe Biden signed a

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<v Speaker 3>law that would ban TikTok in the US unless it's

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<v Speaker 3>diver tested from its parent company, byte Dance within the year.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think if we put a time clock on that,

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<v Speaker 3>it's about within the next four months if this law

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<v Speaker 3>is not overturned, and byte Dance would have to divest

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<v Speaker 3>TikTok if it wants to remain active in the United States.

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<v Speaker 3>TikTok is appealing this law. They're urging a US federal

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<v Speaker 3>appeals court to overturn it. The irony, of course, is

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<v Speaker 3>that they're making this argument that Joe Biden's law infringes

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<v Speaker 3>TikTok's free speech, and you know it's ironic. Given that

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<v Speaker 3>TikTok is owned by a Chinese company and there's no

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<v Speaker 3>freedom of speech in China.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So banning TikTok on government vhones is one thing,

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<v Speaker 1>but a total ban, like what might come into play

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<v Speaker 1>in the US, is a much more drastic step. So

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<v Speaker 1>is there support for something like that in Australia.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, you know, the strongest critics of TikTok have come

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<v Speaker 3>from within Peter Dutton's own party. Opposition Home Affairs spokesperson

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<v Speaker 3>James Patterson has been a strident critic of TikTok. He's

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<v Speaker 3>also been very critical of other ways in which he

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<v Speaker 3>feels that China is trying to compromise Australian security, and

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<v Speaker 3>he has said that if the US successfully forces TikTok

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<v Speaker 3>to be divested from ByteDance, that Australia should seek to

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<v Speaker 3>do the same. You know, he was most critical of

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<v Speaker 3>TikTok back in March this year. That's a good six

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<v Speaker 3>months before Peter Dunton decided to get on board, and

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<v Speaker 3>it's perhaps not surprising that we haven't heard him in

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<v Speaker 3>the last few weeks being as critical of TikTok or

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<v Speaker 3>raising any of the concerns that he's raised previously. I

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<v Speaker 3>think given that both Labor and the Coalition agree that

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<v Speaker 3>TikTok poses a security risk to Commonwealth agencies and government

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<v Speaker 3>employees and MPs, it remains to be seen how the

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<v Speaker 3>US court case will influence the Australian government's decision on

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<v Speaker 3>whether or not to ban the platform here in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So how is TikTok handling this this blowback from

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<v Speaker 1>various governments and the prospect of bans.

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<v Speaker 3>Well in Australia, they are advertising. So if you drive

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<v Speaker 3>to Cambra Airport, as all politicians do when they're leaving

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<v Speaker 3>Canberra at the end of a sitting week, there's a

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<v Speaker 3>huge billboard there which is advertising TikTok and all of

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<v Speaker 3>the ways in which it helps Australians, particularly small business owners,

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<v Speaker 3>market their products. They're also doing a lot of lobbying

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<v Speaker 3>during this year. They hired Sabina Hussick. They added her

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<v Speaker 3>to their government relations or lobbying team. Sabina Hussick is

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<v Speaker 3>of course the sister of Ed Husick, the Federal Minister

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<v Speaker 3>for Industry, a very senior cabinet minister. Sabina also has

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<v Speaker 3>her own very strong tires in Canberra to the Labor Party.

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<v Speaker 3>She's a former deputy chief of staff to Anthony Alberanezi

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<v Speaker 3>when he was opposition leader. She was also a key

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<v Speaker 3>operative over many years to the former Victorian Labor Premier

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<v Speaker 3>Dan Andrews. She's a very well connected Labor Party operative

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<v Speaker 3>and she's now also likely to be a very well

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<v Speaker 3>paid lobbyist working on behalf of TikTok around the country.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, it'll be interesting to see what effect that

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<v Speaker 1>appointment might have. But regardless, Jason, we're in this situation

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<v Speaker 1>where there are real security concerns around the use of TikTok,

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<v Speaker 1>raised by both the government and the opposition. In spite

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<v Speaker 1>of that, we're seeing more and more politicians getting their

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<v Speaker 1>bonafhones and getting on TikTok anyway, chasing every last vote.

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<v Speaker 1>So I suppose the bigger question here is should these

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<v Speaker 1>politicians be doing this given that this is an app

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<v Speaker 1>affiliated with a foreign guy in a country where there

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<v Speaker 1>is no free speech.

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<v Speaker 3>So if we put aside TikTok's legal troubles in the

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<v Speaker 3>United States and whether or not the Chinese government wants

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<v Speaker 3>to harvest the data that TikTok collects and use it

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<v Speaker 3>for its own purposes. The US government would say its

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<v Speaker 3>own nefarious purposes. One security expert that I spoke to said,

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<v Speaker 3>perhaps the real question here is should we even be

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<v Speaker 3>on TikTok in the first place? What are the principles

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<v Speaker 3>involved here? And his argument to me was that at

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<v Speaker 3>the end of the day, TikTok is a town hall

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<v Speaker 3>environment where not everybody is welcome. And he's asking the

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<v Speaker 3>question of Australian politicians and Australian citizens, are they comfortable

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<v Speaker 3>getting onto a platform where Hong Kong protesters, Tibetans, Muslims

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<v Speaker 3>from Western China, or anyone else that's been critical of

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<v Speaker 3>China and its human rights record is not welcome. And

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<v Speaker 3>this person put it to me that his simple view

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<v Speaker 3>was that Australians and Australian politicians just should not be

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<v Speaker 3>on TikTok on principle.

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<v Speaker 1>Jason, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 3>Ruby, as always, it's great to talk. Thanks very much.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, three Aboriginal police officers have

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<v Speaker 1>lodged a complaint with the Human Rights Commission alleging racial vilification,

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<v Speaker 1>derision and unequal pay by the Northern Territory Police over

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<v Speaker 1>a twenty year period for their work as Aboriginal community

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<v Speaker 1>police officers. The Northern Territories Police Commissioner Michael Murphy didn't

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<v Speaker 1>directly comment on the complaint, but has reiterated his commitment

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<v Speaker 1>to cultural reform in anti police following his public apology

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<v Speaker 1>to First Nations Territorians at the Gama Festival earlier this year.

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<v Speaker 1>And a sixty five year old man has been arrested

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<v Speaker 1>in Rome over the weekend over the alleged murder of

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<v Speaker 1>two women in Collingwood, Melbourne. In nineteen seventy seven, twenty

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<v Speaker 1>seven year old Suzanne Armstrong and twenty eight year old

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<v Speaker 1>Susan Bartlett were found stabbed multiple times in a shocking

0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.040
<v Speaker 1>double murder that has come to be known as the

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<v Speaker 1>Easy Street murders. Homicide detectives have been trying to solve

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<v Speaker 1>the case for almost fifty years, making it the longest

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<v Speaker 1>cold case in the state. Victorian Police Commissioner Shane Patten

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<v Speaker 1>says police intend to charge the man with two counts

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<v Speaker 1>of murder and one charge of rape. He says he

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<v Speaker 1>hopes the arrest brings the women's families closer to the

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<v Speaker 1>answers they deserve. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks for listening,