Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. This is
Speaker 1: the most important episode in the Bromwan podcast series so far.
Speaker 1: It is going to disclose a major new development in
Speaker 1: this investigation into Bromwin's disappearance. It is so serious it
Speaker 1: should prompt Senior Detective Nigel Warren or an another member
Speaker 1: of the Unsolved Homicide unit in Sydney to beat a
Speaker 1: path to the door of a woman from whom you'll
Speaker 1: hear shortly. Her name is Judy Singh. She is sixty
Speaker 1: nine years old, a Korean nurse who retired a few
Speaker 1: years ago and she now lives with her daughter's family
Speaker 1: in northern New South Wales. Our first conversation was a
Speaker 1: recorded interview over the telephone on Tuesday, June eleven. Here
Speaker 1: is some of what Jude told me then.
Speaker 2: And this night I was sitting up and I saw
Speaker 2: the car pool out at the end of the street
Speaker 2: when the light was on in the car. There's very
Speaker 2: squeaky brakes on that car, and he drove very slowly
Speaker 2: along the street, but he had left the car light
Speaker 2: on and I could see directly into the car, and
Speaker 2: I had a small lantern on the balcony rail and
Speaker 2: he kind of looked up this night and I saw
Speaker 2: this what looked to be like a mummy in the
Speaker 2: back of the car, and I thought, gott it be
Speaker 2: going late at night with you know, something that looked
Speaker 2: like I just called it a mummy. And I've said
Speaker 2: this to my son so many times about this, and
Speaker 2: I thought, well, even if he was taking out belongings,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't make it look like a body, do you
Speaker 2: know what I mean?
Speaker 1: So when you say a mummy, it was wrapped in something.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was either very pale green or cream, not white,
Speaker 2: but maybe like a bed sheet or something like that.
Speaker 2: And I wanted the police to know that because I
Speaker 2: thought the pressure of that, the weight of that on
Speaker 2: the door might have been what was keeping the light on.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that happens in an old falcon.
Speaker 2: It was a square falcon, and I remember it well.
Speaker 2: It always had squeaky brakes.
Speaker 1: Are you clear on the date that you saw what
Speaker 1: you believe?
Speaker 2: There's a couple of weeks after my birthday.
Speaker 1: Jude's birthday is May one. Bromwin disappeared two weeks and
Speaker 1: one day later, May sixteen.
Speaker 2: I know that he had something in that car that
Speaker 2: resembled a body, just a body shape in the back seat. Oh,
Speaker 2: it was late. It was late at night. The kids
Speaker 2: were in bed, two older children, and this being in
Speaker 2: my head kept saying it looked like a mummy, and
Speaker 2: I thought, oh shit, that when I heard that, you know,
Speaker 2: she had been reported missing, that that might have ben
Speaker 2: there mummy. You know, That's what sticks in my mind
Speaker 2: about the shape of what I saw.
Speaker 1: God, I mean, I know what I visualize when I
Speaker 1: think of a mummy, but I don't want to put
Speaker 1: words in your mouth. Can you describe it?
Speaker 2: Well? Aroundish around his head with this light green or
Speaker 2: beige covering on it. It was long. Wasn't a surfboard
Speaker 2: because the surfboard would have sharp edges. I've been through
Speaker 2: that in my head as well. It had to be
Speaker 2: something round, like a head or a ball. But then
Speaker 2: it was long and you know covered. That's what I remember.
Speaker 2: Where was the head of the mummy riding the corner
Speaker 2: on the back behind the passinger seat in the back.
Speaker 2: The head of the mummy was in the corner, pressing
Speaker 2: up against the door. She was quite.
Speaker 1: Upright, almost like in a seated fashion. In the back.
Speaker 2: Yes, she probably would have had a bend in it somehow.
Speaker 2: The roundness of the head was very visible. This was
Speaker 2: a light green or or sort of creamy colored sheet.
Speaker 2: I don't know what color sheets John had, but it
Speaker 2: was like a shroud, you know, like a body. I've
Speaker 2: dealt with a lot of dead bodies in my life
Speaker 2: as an earth I can't be mistaken because the light
Speaker 2: was on in the car.
Speaker 1: Was it possible for you to actually identify him as
Speaker 1: John Winfield when you looked in?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah it was.
Speaker 2: It definitely him, without a doubt in my mind. It
Speaker 2: was hidden. That's it. That's the story. God, dude, you
Speaker 2: wonder why the police wouldn't be interested in that. Even now,
Speaker 2: I start getting quite turned up inside when I'm thinking
Speaker 2: about it. You know, it's just one of those things
Speaker 2: and I've had to with and my son Bo and
Speaker 2: I talk about it a lot. I said to him
Speaker 2: the other day, I said, you know, this is podcast
Speaker 2: came on, you know, the Australian newspaper. And I said
Speaker 2: to my son, oh, there's this podcast about about brom
Speaker 2: and I haven't actually seen it. I said, oh, crikey,
Speaker 2: what what should I do? You know? And he said,
Speaker 2: oh it's crazy, Mom, You've been thinking about that forever.
Speaker 2: And I said, oh, I ready, and he said, oh, great,
Speaker 2: great good. I need get off your conscience. He said, Mum,
Speaker 2: you've always, you know, angst over this. What ain't you
Speaker 2: in here? So that's what I did.
Speaker 1: After we had been talking for about an hour and
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes, in which time Jude had disclosed so much more,
Speaker 1: including her two visits to police stations in Balana in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three and a decade or so later in
Speaker 1: Byron to tell officers what she saw that night. I asked,
Speaker 1: did you feel better for having disclosed these things? Now?
Speaker 2: Nell? He died, recently, Well, I'm taking this to the
Speaker 2: great Always some relief when you can get something out,
Speaker 2: you know, and what the sake of those girls?
Speaker 1: You were going to hear more from Jude later in
Speaker 1: this episode. You were also going to hear from others
Speaker 1: about what she witnessed in mid May nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: when she lived in Granite Street, just a few doors
Speaker 1: away from John and Bromwin's house in Sandstone Crescent I
Speaker 1: first heard about Jude in early January twenty twenty three
Speaker 1: about and a woman called Kerry McLain sent me a
Speaker 1: brief email. Then There were no explanatory notes, just the
Speaker 1: words Bromwin, Winfield, Lennox Head and a date May sixteenth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. I replied to Kerry, I wrote, it's
Speaker 1: an intriguing case. Do you know anything about it? Kerry
Speaker 1: emailed back with some very specific information. She told me
Speaker 1: that Cristel lived with Carrie in Kerrie's home in Ballina
Speaker 1: as a border when Cristel was finishing her last year
Speaker 1: of high school there. Her stepfather John was leaving to
Speaker 1: go to Sydney for a building project. But Carrie added
Speaker 1: something else. She wrote that she had a friend who
Speaker 1: lived in the same street as the Winfields, and Kerry
Speaker 1: had been told by her friend that she had seen something.
Speaker 1: Carrie added that she urged her friend to pass the
Speaker 1: information onto police, but she said that her friend had
Speaker 1: a sick baby at the time and carry wasn't sure
Speaker 1: how her friend had handled the information to get it
Speaker 1: off her own chest. Carrie passed the information onto a
Speaker 1: detective some years later. Kerry didn't mention the name of
Speaker 1: her friend in her email to me, and I didn't
Speaker 1: want to press things at that stage. Early January twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three, I had started writing my book The Teacher's Pet,
Speaker 1: which took up much of that year, and there was
Speaker 1: still unfinished business with the newly convicted wife killer Chris Dawson.
Speaker 1: His trial for unlawful sex with an underage schoolgirl became
Speaker 1: a series called The Teacher's Accuser, and I worked on
Speaker 1: this each week with my journalist colleagues and friends David Murray,
Speaker 1: Claire Harvey, Matthew Condon, and Kristin Amiot. It would be
Speaker 1: another year before I could properly commit to a thorough
Speaker 1: investigation and podcast series revolving around Broman's disappearance, but it
Speaker 1: is important to keep every email contact and tip off.
Speaker 1: The Bromin Winfield folder on my laptop grew. After thanking
Speaker 1: Kerry McLain in January twenty twenty, I assured her that
Speaker 1: I would be back in touch when there was time
Speaker 1: to revive Broman's case, and so in February twenty twenty four,
Speaker 1: about three months before the release of the first episode
Speaker 1: in this podcast series, I recorded an interview with Kerry
Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties. Her surname was Ensby, and she
Speaker 1: started telling me about her connection to Bromwin's daughter Crystal.
Speaker 3: How she came here was there must have been a
Speaker 3: little ad in the paper board wanted for a student.
Speaker 3: So I just rang that number and she moved in.
Speaker 3: She must have been about sixteen.
Speaker 1: It's pretty unusual a girl in a family situation at
Speaker 1: that stage of a high school needing to move in
Speaker 1: with a stranger. What's going on there?
Speaker 3: Well, he was going to Sydney to work. The house
Speaker 3: is very welcoming. I'm very welcoming. She was safe, while
Speaker 3: she was dear. She settled in quite good, went off
Speaker 3: to school. She was quiet, she wasn't over talkative, very
Speaker 3: tall girl. All teenage girls need their mum. She was
Speaker 3: really keen on doing school. I mean she was a
Speaker 3: nice girl, not wild or anything like a lot of
Speaker 3: the kids that I've had here.
Speaker 1: Did she tell you then that her mother had disappeared?
Speaker 1: Or Oh?
Speaker 3: Yes, he talked a little bit about it, No doubt
Speaker 3: it was on her mind all the time.
Speaker 1: Do you know what happened to Lauren while you were
Speaker 1: looking after her?
Speaker 3: She went with her dad to Sydney, So.
Speaker 1: I reckon she was living with you when she made
Speaker 1: a police statement in Balinat in July nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 3: Oh, I think I can remember.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: In fact, she definitely was, yeah, because she says in
Speaker 1: paragraph three, I'm presently residing at and I won't say
Speaker 1: you address with three ensby and three young children.
Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah, my name was Zensby.
Speaker 1: Yep. Maddie Walsh, Bromwin's twenty one year old second cousin,
Speaker 1: who has been doing her own homework for me in
Speaker 1: this podcast series and being an enormous help, asked her
Speaker 1: teenager sister Tianna to read Crystal's police statement.
Speaker 4: I have attended the Balliner police station today again of
Speaker 4: my own free will. I've been very concerned about what
Speaker 4: has happened to my mother and I would like the
Speaker 4: police to conduct a thorough investigation to try and find
Speaker 4: out what has happened to her.
Speaker 1: Tiana is sixteen, the same age Crystal was when she
Speaker 1: was living with Kerry McLain and went with a school
Speaker 1: teacher to make her statement to police in Ballina in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 4: I had been requested by a detective Sergeant Taylor to
Speaker 4: make a statement concerning my knowledge of my mother's disappearance.
Speaker 4: I am prepared to do that, and I understand that
Speaker 4: the statement may be given to the coroner to assist
Speaker 4: in any further inquiry. I had been asked what recollection
Speaker 4: I have back in May nineteen ninety three, when my
Speaker 4: father arrived at the family home in Sanson Crescent, this
Speaker 4: apparently being the day my mother disappeared. I remember being
Speaker 4: at home in the early evening when I received a
Speaker 4: telephone call, and from my recollection, it was from my father.
Speaker 4: I don't remember what it was that I spoke about,
Speaker 4: but it was not long after this that my father
Speaker 4: arrived at the house. I remember my mother saying something like,
Speaker 4: what are you doing here? My father says something about
Speaker 4: having caught a plane back to Ballina. When I first
Speaker 4: saw my father, another lady was with him at the
Speaker 4: front door, but she virtually left straight away. I remember
Speaker 4: Dad coming into the kitchen and I was sitting watching telephone.
Speaker 4: My dad and Mom started talking, but I don't know
Speaker 4: what was being said. I think at one stage they
Speaker 4: went into the bedroom and they were talking in there.
Speaker 4: I remember Mom and Dad were talking about on paid bills,
Speaker 4: and Mum saying something along the lines about not talking
Speaker 4: about it in front of Lauren and myself. The next
Speaker 4: thing that I remember was Mum telling myself and my
Speaker 4: sister Lauren to clean our teeth and go to bed.
Speaker 4: I think we normally went to bed about eight thirty
Speaker 4: pm each night. After I went to bed, I heard
Speaker 4: Mum and Dad arguing in the kitchen. I could hear
Speaker 4: Mom crying at the same time. I don't recall what
Speaker 4: was being said between Mum and Dad, but I could
Speaker 4: tell that they were arguing. I could hear them arguing
Speaker 4: until I must have fell asleeph My next recollection that
Speaker 4: night was being woken by my father. Dad told me
Speaker 4: that he was taking Lauren and I to Sydney. I
Speaker 4: recall that we packed a small bag of clothes and
Speaker 4: got into Pekar. My dog, whose name was Mopsie, was
Speaker 4: also put into the car with us. At that time,
Speaker 4: we had an old white Falcon. After we got in
Speaker 4: the car and Dad started driving, Lauren asked Dad where
Speaker 4: Mum was. I remember Dad saying something about Mum going
Speaker 4: away on a holiday and he was taking us to Sydney.
Speaker 4: Dad says something about that he had a job to
Speaker 4: do and that we would have to go with him
Speaker 4: to Sydney. I recalled that we stopped at a petro
Speaker 4: station somewhere, but I don't remember where it was. I
Speaker 4: don't remember much about the rest of the trip to Sydney.
Speaker 4: I remember we stayed in Sydney for a couple of
Speaker 4: weeks before returning to Lennox Head. Dad never mentioned anything
Speaker 4: to me about Mum while I was in Sydney. I
Speaker 4: recalled that Lauren was asking Dad all the time about
Speaker 4: Mum and he just said that she'd be back soon.
Speaker 4: I became aware after a couple of weeks that Mum
Speaker 4: had been reported missing to the police, but Dad never
Speaker 4: spoke to me about it.
Speaker 2: A month.
Speaker 4: I just presume that Mom just wasn't coming back. I
Speaker 4: was only ten years of age at that time, so
Speaker 4: I just thought she had left. I have not had
Speaker 4: any contact with my mother since her disappearance in nineteen
Speaker 4: ninety three. Over the years, I have often thought about
Speaker 4: what has.
Speaker 5: Happened to her.
Speaker 4: Dad has never brought up my mother in conversation. Basically,
Speaker 4: over the years, my mother has gradually been built out
Speaker 4: of our lives. My Dad never talks about Mum or
Speaker 4: his past relationship with her. I have never tried to
Speaker 4: bring up mom in conversation with my father. I am
Speaker 4: aware that he does not like to talk about her.
Speaker 4: I am very concerned about what has happened to my mother,
Speaker 4: and that is why I've attended the police station today
Speaker 4: to speak to the police. I have been asked by
Speaker 4: Detective Sergeant Taylor if I have any knowledge of any
Speaker 4: domestic disputes between my mother and father. I remember that
Speaker 4: Mom and Dad used to argue on occasions. Dad sometimes
Speaker 4: has a bad temper and equal goose control. I've seen
Speaker 4: my father hit my mother on rare occasions. I remember
Speaker 4: that he was smack Lauren on myself, and on one
Speaker 4: occasion he picked me up and threw me against the wall.
Speaker 4: Dad always liked the house to be kept spotlessly clean,
Speaker 4: and he would get upset if we made any mess
Speaker 4: in the house.
Speaker 1: You are going to hear more from Crystal's nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: nine statement later in this episode. Here's Kerry McLain again,
Speaker 1: And just a reminder, this conversation I'm having with Kerry
Speaker 1: occurred on February twenty two of this year, twenty twenty four,
Speaker 1: about three and a half months before I had any
Speaker 1: contact with Jude. You contacted me a year ago yeah,
Speaker 1: was that part of your frustration that nothing had happened.
Speaker 3: I was listening to podcasts and you said, if there's
Speaker 3: anything that you should be investigating or any ideas, email me,
Speaker 3: and I thought, right, that's all I need. So I've
Speaker 3: got online found your email address because it's always bothered
Speaker 3: me that nothing's happening. And something did happen there. And
Speaker 3: then there was news reports they were opening the case,
Speaker 3: they were going to be looking at it, and I
Speaker 3: made phone calls and told the detectives what I knew
Speaker 3: about the friend living in the street, and I thought
Speaker 3: that they should speak to her.
Speaker 1: So what did you know?
Speaker 3: Well, my friend lived in that street down the road,
Speaker 3: a little bit double story place up high I visited
Speaker 3: her there quite a few times. My friend Judy was
Speaker 3: her name. She had a little baby with all these
Speaker 3: health issues, and she was standing out on the balcony
Speaker 3: early one morning and she saw I don't even know
Speaker 3: his name, is it John? He drove past, and she
Speaker 3: could see down into the car and she said there
Speaker 3: was something whitish in the back seat. I said to
Speaker 3: her that you should report that, but she had her
Speaker 3: own issues at the time, and I don't think she
Speaker 3: ever did. But years later, when I spoke to the detective,
Speaker 3: I give him her name and said you need to
Speaker 3: speak to her.
Speaker 1: And did he.
Speaker 3: I've got no idea.
Speaker 1: Have you stayed in touch with her?
Speaker 3: No? No, she moved away. No, I don't know where
Speaker 3: she is. She had her own health problems.
Speaker 1: And as best you can carry because it could be
Speaker 1: pretty important, I haven't heard this before. Can you relate
Speaker 1: precisely or as closely as you can? Remember what she
Speaker 1: told you?
Speaker 3: What I just said to you, that she saw him
Speaker 3: driving down the street and she could see down into
Speaker 3: the car and it looked like he had something on
Speaker 3: the back seat. She said, it looked like a white sheet,
Speaker 3: something wrapped in a white sheet, which I thought was jeez.
Speaker 1: And you're certain that she described in those terms something
Speaker 1: wrapped in a white sheet.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So.
Speaker 1: Those are two big coincidences, Kerry. One that Crystal is
Speaker 1: staying with you while police are investigating her mother's suspected yep.
Speaker 1: And two that your friend who lives in the street
Speaker 1: witnesses someddenly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3: It's been on my mind forever.
Speaker 1: And what I'm wondering is, well, Crystal was calling your
Speaker 1: place home. You have known what your friend knew.
Speaker 3: Oh, so I would have.
Speaker 1: Are you if I try to find Judy?
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was divorced and then she married, so she
Speaker 3: went by Judy Singh for a long time.
Speaker 1: When your friend told you about this, did you believe
Speaker 1: that she could be relied upon that she.
Speaker 2: Was a Yeah?
Speaker 3: I did, I did.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: She wasn't one for telling tall stories. I think at
Speaker 3: the time we both sort of made the comment, Well,
Speaker 3: if that was her, she'd be in the dune somewhere.
Speaker 1: Can you describe to me, then, how from her house
Speaker 1: she would see into a car.
Speaker 3: It's a p hie. It's double story, double garage at
Speaker 3: the bottom, and up the top there's a glass sliding
Speaker 3: door with a little falcony, not a very big one.
Speaker 3: We used to stand out on that balcony and have
Speaker 3: a cup of tea and you could see right down
Speaker 3: into the cars as they drove past. And if you
Speaker 3: see the house, you'll understand how that's possible.
Speaker 1: Kerry's memory of what Jude disclosed was that she had
Speaker 1: made the sighting in the early hours of the morning. However,
Speaker 1: Jude has told me it was closer to midnight. What
Speaker 1: sort of relevance do you know or think that she
Speaker 1: attached to it.
Speaker 3: Well, I think she thought that Bronwin was deceased in
Speaker 3: the back seat, wrapped in a sheet, and he was
Speaker 3: going to dispose of her in the sand dunes.
Speaker 1: Why the sand dunes, Well, because he's.
Speaker 3: A surfer, he'd know all the isolated places.
Speaker 1: When do you think you first raised with police what
Speaker 1: your friend Judy told you.
Speaker 3: When they opened it up again and they were investigating.
Speaker 1: Was that about two thousand and nine, so around fifteen
Speaker 1: years ago.
Speaker 3: Possibly, yeah, if that was when it was two thousand
Speaker 3: and nine, yeah.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and nine there was a brief burst
Speaker 1: of publicity and the Northern Star newspaper reported that the
Speaker 1: Senior Detective George Radmore of the New South Wales Unsolved
Speaker 1: Homicide Squad was reinvestigating Roman's disappearance.
Speaker 3: I was living with this information and I don't know
Speaker 3: whether Judy ever spoke to them, and I just wanted
Speaker 3: to let them know that they need to speak to
Speaker 3: this lady.
Speaker 1: Right, So you were covering off, you were making sure.
Speaker 3: I guess, like with these things, you sit back and
Speaker 3: you think I'll someone will say something, and I just
Speaker 3: wasn't sure because I knew what her life was like.
Speaker 3: She had a lot going on and her own health battles.
Speaker 1: Did they take a statement from you, Well, I.
Speaker 3: Didn't sign anything. It was just over the phone.
Speaker 1: Did anybody follow you up?
Speaker 3: No, I've almost thought about this. Mothers just don't disappear.
Speaker 3: They just don't leave their children.
Speaker 1: And you've been a foster mum.
Speaker 3: Yes, and I have seen mothers their addictions have taken
Speaker 3: over them so much that they can't care for their
Speaker 3: own children.
Speaker 1: Of those one hundred and fifty children for whom you've cared,
Speaker 1: how many mothers have abandoned those children, and to your knowledge,
Speaker 1: have never wanted to connect with their kids. Kerry could
Speaker 1: recall only one such case.
Speaker 3: I just can't see it ever happening without extreme circumstances.
Speaker 3: I've seen it all, But I believe in my heart
Speaker 3: that mothers do not walk out on their children. I
Speaker 3: had to ring them to get it off my chest
Speaker 3: because I didn't want to live with this little piece
Speaker 3: of information that I haven't passed on. I didn't want
Speaker 3: to add to her stress, but I wanted to make
Speaker 3: sure that someone would speak to her.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, But you did the right thing.
Speaker 3: Well, I felt better after doing it. But I don't
Speaker 3: know that it went anywhere.
Speaker 1: But you gave them the full name of Judy, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting and I think disappointing that nobody got back
Speaker 1: to you after you rang that information through the police.
Speaker 3: Well, I was hoping they'd get in contact with Jude.
Speaker 3: She's the one that should be speaking to, not me.
Speaker 1: Was she still living there at the time.
Speaker 3: No, her life was a little bit complicated, but a lovely,
Speaker 3: honest person.
Speaker 1: Well you've really been fantastic help, Carrie.
Speaker 3: I hope, so, I hope it gets solved. I feel
Speaker 3: like I have to speak up because I have that
Speaker 3: little connection with Crystal being here. It's never too late,
Speaker 3: is it.
Speaker 1: No, it's not too late. Here's Maddie's sister Tiana again
Speaker 1: reading the nineteen ninety nine statement of her relation Crystal.
Speaker 4: I don't know what has happened to my mother, and
Speaker 4: I'm unsure if Dad has any involvement in her disappearance.
Speaker 4: I would rather the police not tell my father that
Speaker 4: I have been into the police session or I've made
Speaker 4: this statement. I understand the making of this statement is
Speaker 4: of my own choosing. I've spoken to my sister Lauren
Speaker 4: about her recollection of the night when my mother disappeared.
Speaker 4: Lauren has told me that after she went to bed,
Speaker 4: she got back up and went into my mother's bedroom.
Speaker 4: Lauren said that Mum was in the bedroom crying and
Speaker 4: Mum told her to go back to bed. Lauren said
Speaker 4: that Mum took her back into her room and talked
Speaker 4: her into bed. Laurence said to me that Mum told
Speaker 4: her that she would see her in the morning. I've
Speaker 4: often thought about it over the last six years. I
Speaker 4: feel it strange that Mum would leave Lauren on myself
Speaker 4: and not have any further contact. I was very close
Speaker 4: to Mum and she always treated Lauren on myself very well.
Speaker 5: Mum was always close to us.
Speaker 4: She would often hug and cut a loss, and she
Speaker 4: would always come in give us a kiss good night
Speaker 4: and tell us that she loved us. To me, it
Speaker 4: would be out of character for Mum to leave and
Speaker 4: not say goodbye to us if she was going on
Speaker 4: a holiday without us. I don't ever recall Mom leaving
Speaker 4: myself or Lauren for any length of time. Mom never
Speaker 4: went on a holiday without us, and for my recollection,
Speaker 4: she was quite protective of us. I feel sure that
Speaker 4: if Mum intended to go on a holiday without us.
Speaker 5: She would have let us know.
Speaker 1: About twelve thirty pm. On Sunday June nine, a few
Speaker 1: days after the release of episode four of this podcast series,
Speaker 1: I opened an email. It was from Jude Singh. We
Speaker 1: had been trying to find her without success. I was
Speaker 1: hopeful that she would hear about the podcast and contact me,
Speaker 1: but there were no guarantees. Until I read Jude's email,
Speaker 1: I couldn't understand how in darkness a neighbor could see
Speaker 1: inside an unlit car as it passed by. By another coincidence,
Speaker 1: on Sunday, June nine, Mattie Walsh, her mum and dad,
Speaker 1: her sister Tiana, her brother Jai, and his girlfriend Chloe
Speaker 1: visited my wife Ruth and I at our home in Brisbane,
Speaker 1: four hours after Jude's email had landed in my inbox.
Speaker 1: I quietly took Mattie aside and out to the driveway,
Speaker 1: leaving our visitors on the deck. I showed her Jude's
Speaker 1: email on my laptop, as well as my reply to Jude,
Speaker 1: in which I had shared my mobile number, and I
Speaker 1: asked Jude to please call me on it. Can I
Speaker 1: have you just for five years? Nice to meet your family. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I got this email. Just read that there, read it.
Speaker 6: Out loud at home. The night John drove past my house.
Speaker 6: I could see inside his car the light inside it
Speaker 6: was still on. I lived in Granite Street, Linux Judy singh.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 5: So she contacted the website.
Speaker 1: She's gone my personal website Headley Thomas dot com and
Speaker 1: there's an option where you can send an email.
Speaker 6: So the light inside the car was on, yeah, which
Speaker 6: makes it sound that yeah, because if it was dark,
Speaker 6: you wouldn't be up to see inside the car.
Speaker 5: But the light was on.
Speaker 1: So that's But she hasn't said anything else.
Speaker 5: It's it'd be interesting to see what else she has
Speaker 5: to say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I've emailed her back. Thanks for getting in touch.
Speaker 1: Can you send me your number please, I'll call you
Speaker 1: for a chat. And she hasn't got back to it yet,
Speaker 1: but she obviously wants to talk.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Well, she wouldn't have reached out unless she had something.
Speaker 6: And the fact that Karen mentioned it way back.
Speaker 1: Maybe he'd left the interior light on by mistake.
Speaker 5: Maybe was this do you reckon?
Speaker 6: So if she's seen she could see inside the car,
Speaker 6: is that to say that ron women's in the backseat
Speaker 6: and the girls are still at the house, and he may.
Speaker 1: Have Well, if what we believe her theory is is right,
Speaker 1: then the girls must have still been at the house.
Speaker 6: Yea, it makes sense he would have put Broumwin in
Speaker 6: the back seat.
Speaker 5: It's easier, probably compared with the boot.
Speaker 2: Compare with the boot.
Speaker 1: If she's right about what she fears she saw, then
Speaker 1: Bromin's buried locally.
Speaker 6: Yes, which is one possible, just as possible that she's
Speaker 6: in Sydney or anywhere from Lennox Head to Sydney.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I didn't consider the obvious thing that.
Speaker 6: A light no't I've never thought of that because I.
Speaker 5: Was thinking, how could she see in the car?
Speaker 1: If she's just contacted us without any previous recent contact
Speaker 1: with Terry, it just makes it look a whole lot
Speaker 1: more credible.
Speaker 2: It does.
Speaker 6: And the fact that she's not saying more than she
Speaker 6: needs to she knows what we would know she's talking about.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Does she know we've talked to Cherry?
Speaker 1: I doubt it. So why hasn't she said more?
Speaker 5: I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she just giveing us on a toe. Gosh.
Speaker 1: Now let's return to the interview with Jude. Her surname
Speaker 1: was Willa Brands when she and her children lived in
Speaker 1: a rented home very close to the Winfield House in
Speaker 1: Lennox Head. Why do you believe that on the night
Speaker 1: you saw the object in the car, the thing you've
Speaker 1: described as the mummy, Why do you place it in
Speaker 1: the late evening before midnight? Because I was having trouble
Speaker 1: with my pregnancy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was worried about miscarriage actually, and just sitting
Speaker 2: up my children had gone to bed. I just couldn't sleep,
Speaker 2: worrying about it all, yeah, and is that give up
Speaker 2: my job? But worrying about how it's going to pay rent.
Speaker 2: In those days it was two hundred and twenty dollars
Speaker 2: to live in that house a week up, having to
Speaker 2: go on a pension and an absolute struggle. Lots of
Speaker 2: things happened at that stage, you know, when things of
Speaker 2: marriage breakdown and they went through defors.
Speaker 1: Jude told me that she went to the police station
Speaker 1: in Ballina in nineteen ninety three to report what she saw.
Speaker 1: Her visit to the station came after a neighbor, Virginia Bevers,
Speaker 1: told Jude that Bromwin had disappeared. You heard from Virginia.
Speaker 1: In a previous episode, John had been two police to
Speaker 1: report Bromwyn missing in late May. The missing person report
Speaker 1: triggered visits to Sandstone Crescent by detectives Graham Diskin and
Speaker 1: Wayne Tembe. The neighbors were talking among themselves about Broman's
Speaker 1: disappearance and the police visits. I just wanted to understand
Speaker 1: that when you think you first went to the police,
Speaker 1: or when?
Speaker 2: Was it very close to when I saw that. I
Speaker 2: talked to the Bin police first, and they took me
Speaker 2: behind the counter. They gave me a card. Now my
Speaker 2: things are in storage. I'm about to build a little
Speaker 2: grainny flat in my daughter's backyard. And I kept that
Speaker 2: card for a long long time in case somebody named
Speaker 2: me and I could give them the particulars that were
Speaker 2: written on the card.
Speaker 1: Are you saying that they gave you a card, but
Speaker 1: that you weren't actually spoken to by a detective about
Speaker 1: what you saw at that time?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was spoken to by somebody. I went behind
Speaker 2: the counter in the Ballina police station, spake to a
Speaker 2: man on the desk. He said, we'll come around take
Speaker 2: a statement. I had a different name then to my name.
Speaker 1: Now, what was your name then wille Brands. And he
Speaker 1: didn't take a statement though, but you told him the story.
Speaker 2: I believe they wrote something thing down, Yeah, and then
Speaker 2: they gave me the card.
Speaker 1: Did you form an impression then of how seriously or
Speaker 1: not they were taking it?
Speaker 2: Hardly? Interested? Hardly?
Speaker 1: I can't understand why that would be.
Speaker 2: Almost had to beg them to let me say something.
Speaker 2: Those early early weeks. Was when I went there, I
Speaker 2: actually just wanted to get it off my conscience, in
Speaker 2: my mind, even though I had stuff going on. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I went away feeling so despondent and thinking about those
Speaker 2: dear little girls. I don't know. It was a strange
Speaker 2: sort of a dude. He wasn't very friendly. As the
Speaker 2: year progressed and my daughter was born and he had
Speaker 2: to have an iliostomy put in place and really touch
Speaker 2: and go, and I just got tied up. I had
Speaker 2: a lot of shit going on, especially money. Was this
Speaker 2: You could not work out how I was going to
Speaker 2: so iinantually exist when I had to suddenly give up anyway,
Speaker 2: do you get through them?
Speaker 1: Jude described a second occasion years later, when she tried
Speaker 1: again to alert local police to what she had seen.
Speaker 2: I ran into a doctor right, and I told her
Speaker 2: the story in a little cafe called the Being Seen
Speaker 2: in ballin Er. Many years later, she came back to
Speaker 2: the hospital and I was actually working in that little
Speaker 2: hospital in McLean and she said to me, did you
Speaker 2: go back to the police after you had that interview?
Speaker 2: And I said no, I didn't, And she said, well,
Speaker 2: we're going today.
Speaker 1: Jude and the doctor, who was from New Zealand, drove
Speaker 1: to the nearby Byron Bay Police station. Anyway, she taught
Speaker 1: me into going to the Byron Bay Police station this time,
Speaker 1: thinking somebody there might listen to us.
Speaker 2: I spoke to a gentleman there and I said, you know, like,
Speaker 2: I'm just always haunted by this story about this woman
Speaker 2: at the end of the street. They didn't do an
Speaker 2: official interview. I said, like, is there anyone here that
Speaker 2: wants to write something down? It's hardly interested in any
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: When do you think it was that you went to
Speaker 1: the Byron police with the doctor?
Speaker 2: Oh this is years later?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Is there anything anyway you can roughly time frame
Speaker 1: it by reference to what you were doing in Balner
Speaker 1: at Bean's cafe or just an approximate.
Speaker 2: What I was doing.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm just trying to work out roughly what decade
Speaker 1: we were in when you went to Byron to see
Speaker 1: the police.
Speaker 2: I moved to McClain when I was after fifty. Are
Speaker 2: you going back so many years now, I'd say between
Speaker 2: two thousand and two thousand and five, maybe middle of
Speaker 2: the two thousand.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a big help, thank you. And do you
Speaker 1: recall the name of the police officer or anyone else
Speaker 1: in Byron?
Speaker 2: I only know that he came from Tamworth. I told
Speaker 2: him who I was when I lived in Tamworth and
Speaker 2: I said, my sister used to work at the Tamworth
Speaker 2: police station. She was some superintendent's private secretary. He said
Speaker 2: you're not dirty and I said yes. He said that
Speaker 2: is amazing. So bought Jackson Memories for him. He knew
Speaker 2: my sister Diane. He was around my age, maybe a
Speaker 2: bit older, probably retired. Now.
Speaker 1: Are they the two occasions that you remember and there
Speaker 1: were no others or was there another occasion?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: I don't think so, Okay.
Speaker 2: I think they are the only two occasions that I remember.
Speaker 1: Okay. And just in relation to that doctor who you
Speaker 1: remembered seeing again, what would be really important is if
Speaker 1: I could talk to her as well, because she might remember,
Speaker 1: might remember going with you. Yeah, do you have any
Speaker 1: idea where I might be able to find her? Jude
Speaker 1: told me the doctor from New Zealand would have returned
Speaker 1: to her home country as she was visiting as a
Speaker 1: locom when Jude last saw her in Australia. She told
Speaker 1: me the doctor had a very pretty.
Speaker 2: Name, since she went up to Gallana on that day
Speaker 2: to have something to eat and have a look around,
Speaker 2: and we just met over just having a meal and
Speaker 2: a chat. And it must have been at that stage
Speaker 2: I was talking to her about it when she came
Speaker 2: back to McClean. He said, I did you do something
Speaker 2: about that?
Speaker 1: Do you know why you started talking to I guess
Speaker 1: someone who's a bit of a stranger about this event
Speaker 1: from years earlier. You know what the catalyst was.
Speaker 2: I can't even tell you why. Maybe it was it
Speaker 2: was on my mind, or maybe something had happened and
Speaker 2: it bought that story to mind to a good listener.
Speaker 2: These things staying ahead, I can visually you just see
Speaker 2: that car delight on him looking up. I don't think
Speaker 2: he made an attempt to turn the light off or anything.
Speaker 2: It was on right up to the end of the street.
Speaker 2: I looked at the car going all the way. I
Speaker 2: wasn't going fast in five k's something like that.
Speaker 1: And Jude, can you describe your level of suspicion about
Speaker 1: what it was that was in the car when you
Speaker 1: were told that dra had disappeared.
Speaker 2: Well, I was very concerned. When I start talking about
Speaker 2: it with my son, he said, Mum, I can see
Speaker 2: how I worked up to get about this. I was
Speaker 2: almost just so surprised how uninterested people were, especially at
Speaker 2: the police station, about this.
Speaker 1: Jud I have to tell you something that you might
Speaker 1: be a little bit surprised about. I heard a long
Speaker 1: time ago. I can't remember exactly when. It could have
Speaker 1: been months, certainly before this podcast. Investigation started about you
Speaker 1: from someone you knew, someone who said that you were
Speaker 1: really concerned about it, that you had seen something that
Speaker 1: really troubled you. Someone has said that someone told me
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, and I was hoping that I would
Speaker 1: be able to talk to you again.
Speaker 2: Is it Virginia because Virginia lived across the road.
Speaker 1: No, it's of Virginia, And I don't think the personal mind.
Speaker 1: She was your friend and she was urging me to
Speaker 1: try to find you because she's lost contact with you
Speaker 1: and I have been trying to find you.
Speaker 2: Well, so I said, I changed my name. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: married an Indian man and six months into the marriage
Speaker 2: he said, oh, I can get my residency now. That's
Speaker 2: all he wanted. So I went back to my house.
Speaker 2: It was very short lived, and I've kept the name
Speaker 2: only because I was a nurse and at McLean. I
Speaker 2: went through a divorce and I went through breast cancer.
Speaker 2: During that stressful period, chemotherapy, lost hair, I had to
Speaker 2: give up work again. It was just one bloody shit
Speaker 2: struggle after another that stage. Who is that friend? Can
Speaker 2: you tell me?
Speaker 1: Her name's Kerry carry Ensby. I think that's it, Kerry mclauch.
Speaker 1: I remember that she had Crystal, the daughter.
Speaker 2: Yes, when I went through breast cancer, I actually stayed
Speaker 2: with Carrie because I came out of hospital with all
Speaker 2: the drains and what have you, and she said you'll
Speaker 2: stay here, of course. And then I was sitting at
Speaker 2: the table the next morning she said, I have a
Speaker 2: girl here. Her name's Crystal, and her mum is missing
Speaker 2: or presumed dead or whatever. I don't know what the
Speaker 2: exact word. She said. Well she's here, I said, gosh,
Speaker 2: that just leaves her. Shever over they Oh gosh, you
Speaker 2: know like the fact that there was such a coincidence
Speaker 2: that she.
Speaker 1: Was there, Well, you must have disclosed it to Carrie,
Speaker 1: and oh yeah, many times she really believed what you
Speaker 1: had to say and was wanting to try to help
Speaker 1: by putting me in touch with you somehow because she'd
Speaker 1: lost touch with you.
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
Speaker 1: That's another extraordinary coincidence, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. That's good. That's another witness, yes to
Speaker 2: what I've been saying of this. You think about that
Speaker 2: thing on the back, see that look like a mummy,
Speaker 2: and you just think to yourself, if anyone was moving
Speaker 2: people's stuff around, they wouldn't make it look like a mummy.
Speaker 2: They wouldn't go to that trouble.
Speaker 1: There was nobody else in the car.
Speaker 2: No, there's nobody else in the car. Their board, the
Speaker 2: mummy and John. The years, there's been opportunities where I've
Speaker 2: thought so strongly about doing something more about it. And yeah,
Speaker 2: just brought it all back when I saw it on
Speaker 2: the TV. You take that image and you live with
Speaker 2: it and it's still there. Not something I imagined.
Speaker 1: A couple of hours after my first interview with Jude.
Speaker 1: On the morning of Tuesday, June eleven, he texted me
Speaker 1: the name of a doctor from New Zealand, the woman
Speaker 1: whom Jude says accompanied her to the Byron Bay Police station,
Speaker 1: and three days after getting the text, I spoke to
Speaker 1: the doctor. She is a general practitioner on the South
Speaker 1: Island of New Zealand. I sat in my car in
Speaker 1: Brisbane with doctor Kirsty Wright, a forensic biologist and expert
Speaker 1: witness with whom I have worked on the Shandy Story
Speaker 1: podcast series. Kirsty is a scientist of unimpeachable integrity and
Speaker 1: I wanted her to witness the conversation. It was agreed
Speaker 1: with the Kiwi doctor and the communications manager of the
Speaker 1: organization which she worked for that I would not publish
Speaker 1: their names in the podcast. The doctor confirmed key points
Speaker 1: she had worked in the two thousands in the region
Speaker 1: in northern New South Wales. She recalled Jude and she
Speaker 1: volunteered that Jude had been gravely concerned that she had
Speaker 1: witnessed something in relation to an alleged murder years earlier.
Speaker 1: At first, the doctor from New Zealand told us that
Speaker 1: she had a vague recollection that Jude might have, in
Speaker 1: her words, chickened out of going to police about it
Speaker 1: with her, But later in the conversation she said that
Speaker 1: in fact they had gone together two police in Byron
Speaker 1: Bay about it, and the doctor said she had a
Speaker 1: memory that the alleged murder concerned a man who was
Speaker 1: she thought a concretor or someone who worked with blocks,
Speaker 1: like a builder or bricklayer. She said, the doctor volunteered
Speaker 1: to me that having observed Jude and heard what Jude
Speaker 1: had to say, she believed the nurse. The doctor said
Speaker 1: she regarded her as someone with sincere and honest concerns
Speaker 1: about what she saw.
Speaker 2: Sir sad to think that somebody's life like Miss Samantha
Speaker 2: Murphy that's gone missing, for goodness, say, you know there
Speaker 2: doing everything possible, aren't they? And yet I didn't feel
Speaker 2: anything was done to bollowin or very little.
Speaker 1: Yeah, at the time, I spoke to Jude in a
Speaker 1: second phone conversation and she told me this.
Speaker 2: But when I saw it on the thing, I thought,
Speaker 2: I said to my son this, it's an opportunity to
Speaker 2: tell somebody again before you leave this earth. You don't
Speaker 2: want to regret or something kind of plaguing you that
Speaker 2: wasn't right near your gut instincts always you think if
Speaker 2: you follow it, it's pretty much right. And I text
Speaker 2: you the information about the thought of the doctor's name.
Speaker 1: Yes, I saw that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a very lovely lady, very compassionate lady. He said,
Speaker 2: why would you tell a stranger something like that? And
Speaker 2: that's what I found it to be. Very compassionate. Yes,
Speaker 2: and she obviously cares about people. We were both the
Speaker 2: ethical people and we struck up this conversation. She just
Speaker 2: told me to go to the police and see if
Speaker 2: I could do something again. It must be eating at you,
Speaker 2: and I said, and she said, well you should do that,
Speaker 2: so she came. That's why she came with me.
Speaker 1: When you left that Byron Bay police station with her,
Speaker 1: or did you leave it with it? Yeah? Yeah, when
Speaker 1: you left the station having spoken about it, did you
Speaker 1: think then that they were or had taken it seriously? Oh?
Speaker 2: Not really. He said, well, we've got your name and
Speaker 2: we've got your number and we'll get back to you.
Speaker 1: But did he take you into an office and interview
Speaker 1: you or no?
Speaker 2: No, no, just spoke to me at the desk. My
Speaker 2: son lived a couple of doors away and I was
Speaker 2: then going to go visit him, So it was sort of.
Speaker 1: So you described the incident properly, do you think over
Speaker 1: the counter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I certainly did. They said, this is incredible
Speaker 2: that you your dire sister and you know there we
Speaker 2: are meeting in another town.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm just wondering why you didn't think what was
Speaker 1: really incredible was what you were disclosing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, mean blase about what I would call an important
Speaker 2: thing somebody's life, and you felt like you could shake
Speaker 2: somebody to say, look, you know, help me here. It's
Speaker 2: thoughtful to say, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It's remarkable, dude, Just remarkable. These clearly are very serious allegations,
Speaker 1: and John Winfield has always emphatically denied wrongdoing. He has
Speaker 1: told police that he saw Bromwin for the last time
Speaker 1: about nine to thirty pm on Sunday, May sixteen, nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three, when he says that she told him she
Speaker 1: needed to go away for a few days. On a
Speaker 1: break in episode one of Bromman, we summarized John's position.
Speaker 1: I have approached John Winfield and asked him for an interview.
Speaker 1: John's side of the story is very important. So far,
Speaker 1: John has declined to speak to me on the record
Speaker 1: or on background. In an email to me on May
Speaker 1: twenty one, twenty twenty four, John stated.
Speaker 7: I have previously made a sworn statement in nineteen ninety
Speaker 7: eight in which I answered four hundred and fifteen questions,
Speaker 7: and as I said to George Radmore in twenty ten,
Speaker 7: I stand by these answers I gave.
Speaker 1: Those are John's words from his email. It's not his voice.
Speaker 1: He answered questions in a nineteen ninety eight interview he
Speaker 1: agreed to do in Ballina Police station. Soon after the
Speaker 1: then detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor had started to investigate Bromlan's
Speaker 1: case properly for the first time. Twelve years later in
Speaker 1: twenty ten, another experienced detective, George Radmore, who was with
Speaker 1: the Homicide Squad of New South Wales, led a reinvestigation.
Speaker 1: In John Winfield's email to me, he said he might
Speaker 1: bring legal action depending on the content of this podcast series,
Speaker 1: and John added there.
Speaker 7: Is a generational history of mental illness, both male and female,
Speaker 7: in the Reed family.
Speaker 1: Before publishing anything in this podcast series, I wanted to
Speaker 1: meet Jude and ask further questions. She raised no objection,
Speaker 1: and I drove to a suburb near tweedtheads on the
Speaker 1: Queensland New South Wales border. Maybe a lovely spot.
Speaker 2: We can siderable table or sit in these chairs.
Speaker 1: What do you think?
Speaker 2: Sean?
Speaker 1: Sean Callanan has come from the Brisbane office to film
Speaker 1: Jude and help develop an animated sequence of the car
Speaker 1: and everything Jude has described. You can see this at
Speaker 1: bromwynpodcast dot com, along with many other stories, photographs and graphics.
Speaker 1: Who did you become a nurse when I was seventeen?
Speaker 2: For a long time?
Speaker 1: So Sean's here to help us picture what's been in
Speaker 1: your memory all this time? Just for accuracy, It's been
Speaker 1: in my head for a lot of years. Jude produced
Speaker 1: a cream colored old photo album with happy snaps of
Speaker 1: her and her children at the beach, at home, and
Speaker 1: other family occasions. Going back to Lennox Head, she went
Speaker 1: to several photographs of their old house there and she
Speaker 1: showed me a second level deck which overlooks Granite Street
Speaker 1: and can go to a map at the website Bromwyn
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Try to picture Granite Street joining up
Speaker 1: with Sandstone Crescent at a right angle. On one side
Speaker 1: of the road. There's Debon Murray's house that's on the
Speaker 1: lower side. John and Bromwyn, their neighbors were next door,
Speaker 1: but just a little higher in the street. To save
Speaker 1: time on the way in or out of the U
Speaker 1: shaped Sandstone Crescent, you can take a shortcut along Granite Street,
Speaker 1: and that's where Jude lived. What you'll pointing to there
Speaker 1: is the deck at five Granite Street at the front,
Speaker 1: and you would have been sitting up here, so.
Speaker 2: Right around this corner and in front of the dining
Speaker 2: area next to May I had John and Dorothy. Okay,
Speaker 2: they moved to Barbie Island.
Speaker 1: Nice part of the world. Jude pointed to another photograph that's.
Speaker 2: Looking right up into the corner of where I said
Speaker 2: I was just along here. If you walk a little
Speaker 2: bit more, that's exactly.
Speaker 1: Where I was right and the streets down here, there's a.
Speaker 2: Great strengthening in front of me. Do you could see
Speaker 2: over the railing without having to stand up?
Speaker 1: For you? At that time that balcony late at night,
Speaker 1: was it a place where you fell well what you
Speaker 1: could collect your thoughts or have some serriity.
Speaker 2: And yeah, well, as I said, I was losing that child.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I couldn't sleep. I'm not a good sleeper.
Speaker 2: I'm still a bit went insomnia years and years of
Speaker 2: night duty.
Speaker 1: Sean brought up Sandstone Crescent on his laptop. We're just
Speaker 1: going to have a look at it as a street view,
Speaker 1: just to confirm that that's it. So that's marin Deb's
Speaker 1: house now, see with the second level there.
Speaker 2: And over here there's a whole stack of wattlebrush. So
Speaker 2: I saw him come into view just as he got
Speaker 2: past the trees.
Speaker 1: Were you also looking at the front of the car
Speaker 1: as it approached or from that balcony? Was that not
Speaker 1: something you could do?
Speaker 2: Yes, I could see the lights coming up the street. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: And I thought, well, dude, that's that's late.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: You were saying that Murray saw him pull out without
Speaker 2: lights and without any motor. That must have been earlier.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking this was later because there was nothing going
Speaker 2: on in that street.
Speaker 1: In episode four, you'll recall hearing Murray Nolan describing John's
Speaker 1: car with its squeaky brakes reversing down the driveway of
Speaker 1: the house at ten forty pm.
Speaker 2: The car backed out with no lights on bottom.
Speaker 3: Down on the road, do a big room in the road,
Speaker 3: and rolled down the hill.
Speaker 8: Down the bottom of the hill, You're down here with
Speaker 8: no lights on, turn the lights on starting and go
Speaker 8: around alleyway.
Speaker 1: But Jude is describing a different trip, and if her
Speaker 1: recollection is correct, it must be on the same night
Speaker 1: May sixteen. That's because all the evidence, including John's evidence
Speaker 1: to police, puts him on an aircraft from Sydney to
Speaker 1: Ballina late in the day and then at the house
Speaker 1: at Sandstone Crescent, and then after a disagreement or altercation
Speaker 1: with Bromwin, John's driving away from the house and through
Speaker 1: the night to go to Sydney with the two girls,
Speaker 1: Crystal and Lauren. John had not been in Lennox. He
Speaker 1: had forced several weeks prior to May sixteen. John was
Speaker 1: working in Sydney in the Shire at Glenn Webster's job site,
Speaker 1: and John didn't stay overnight when he returned to Lenox.
Speaker 1: Because John turned up in Sydney on the morning of Monday,
Speaker 1: May seventeen.
Speaker 2: My birthday was the first of May. Had not kept
Speaker 2: dates on this it. All I know is it was
Speaker 2: about two weeks after my birthday.
Speaker 1: That's why if Jude saw John driving the car about
Speaker 1: two weeks after her birthday, it had to be the
Speaker 1: night of May sixteen. The only night John was in
Speaker 1: Lennox for some time, and the one night on which
Speaker 1: John was the last person to see Roman alive when
Speaker 1: they had a disagreement in the house just fifty meters
Speaker 1: or so from Jude's place.
Speaker 2: It was the dark street at night, so you couldn't
Speaker 2: miss lights coming up. He looked up when he saw them,
Speaker 2: and I could see this mummy light thing. And I
Speaker 2: hate saying mummy because it is somebody's mummy. That It
Speaker 2: was a long white with a rounded head right in
Speaker 2: the very corner of the back of the car as
Speaker 2: it went past. Closest to you, closest to men.
Speaker 1: Has brought up images of a Ford Falcon sedan on
Speaker 1: his laptop, and the three of us looked intently at
Speaker 1: the screen. Sean, could you just zoom into the interior? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's good. Can you describe the positioning of the object
Speaker 1: you refer to as a mummy in terms of where
Speaker 1: if it is a mummy, the feet would be.
Speaker 2: Well, her head was almost in a seated position, but
Speaker 2: then heading.
Speaker 1: That way, and then you're saying the head was in
Speaker 1: this corner. Yes, Sean sketched a rough draft on paper
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you say to yourself. Was that what was
Speaker 2: keeping a light on the pressure of that against the door?
Speaker 2: It wasn't her. Why would somebody make something look like that?
Speaker 1: Whatever was wrapping the object?
Speaker 2: Can you describe that like a very soft, pale green
Speaker 2: or cream of what? Like a sheet?
Speaker 9: Like me?
Speaker 2: Yeah? You could see the form.
Speaker 1: And you still haven't listened to any of the podcasts,
Speaker 1: have you, Jared? No, you haven't been influenced by anything
Speaker 1: you've heard in the Bromin podcast series.
Speaker 2: As I said to you, I can't get at some
Speaker 2: things on my phone. And this is just what I saw.
Speaker 1: Because if it hadn't been for illumination, presumably you wouldn't
Speaker 1: see much inside a passing car.
Speaker 2: That's why I'm quite clear on what I saw. Remembering
Speaker 2: looking up, you said, are you sure it was him? Yes?
Speaker 2: I'm sure it was him I saw.
Speaker 1: Do you remember whether you disclosed to Virginia or anyone
Speaker 1: else in the street what you're describing to us now?
Speaker 10: I don't think so.
Speaker 1: In episode four, you heard mel Taylor, the daughter of
Speaker 1: Devon Murray, who was aged twelve when she went into
Speaker 1: John and Roman's house on Tuesday May eighteenth, nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 1: Here's a reminder of something Mel disclosed while we were
Speaker 1: talking in the nursery section of a public library in Brisbane.
Speaker 8: What I find is strange about the whole thing is
Speaker 8: johnd to come all the way up here to have
Speaker 8: the argument with Bromwin, then to leave that same night
Speaker 8: in a hurry. Why don't you say till the next
Speaker 8: morning then go back to Sydney. Why do we leave
Speaker 8: in such a hurry?
Speaker 1: And is that because you suspect flight urgent panic?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 8: I noticed the house, what it looked like, the state
Speaker 8: that was left in.
Speaker 1: What do you remember about that?
Speaker 8: There was the washing in the laundry, the dishes, the.
Speaker 1: Girl's bed were stripped, The girl's beds were stripped.
Speaker 8: Those sheets in the bed.
Speaker 2: That were gone.
Speaker 1: Mel's disclosure about the sheets was extremely interesting for me
Speaker 1: at that time. Police did not take a statement from
Speaker 1: Melanie Taylor when she was twelve, nor at any time
Speaker 1: in the subsequent thirty one years, and perhaps that's why
Speaker 1: there is no mention in any of the hundreds of
Speaker 1: pages of evidence around funding Broman's case of the beds
Speaker 1: in the girl's rooms having been stripped of sheets. Maddie
Speaker 1: Walsh and I agreed in May after we met Melanie
Speaker 1: that when we spoke to members of Broman's family, we
Speaker 1: would not disclose what Kerry McLain had told me back
Speaker 1: in February. The absence of the sheets was potentially deeply suspicious.
Speaker 1: Three months before we met mel Kerry McLain had told
Speaker 1: me what she recalled that her friend Jude had told her.
Speaker 3: Well, I think she thought that Bronwin was deceased in
Speaker 3: the back seat wrapped in a sheet.
Speaker 1: But in May we were yet to find Judy Singh,
Speaker 1: the purported first hand witness to something wrapped in a
Speaker 1: sheet in the Winfield family car on the night Bromwin disappeared.
Speaker 1: Maddie and I did try to confirm something while talking
Speaker 1: to Andy and Michelle Reid, Broman's brother and sister in law, respectively,
Speaker 1: on May thirty one, I asked Andy and Michelle some
Speaker 1: specific further questions about the afternoon of John's unexpected arrival
Speaker 1: at their home in the Shire south of Sydney on
Speaker 1: the afternoon of Monday, May seventeen, nineteen ninety three. Do
Speaker 1: you recall seeing any sheets?
Speaker 5: No, No, there was nothing in the boot.
Speaker 1: Michelle. I just want to ask you to think about
Speaker 1: the next question and just really search your memory. Andy's
Speaker 1: referred to there being some pillowcases, and Mady asked you
Speaker 1: what color they were. Do you recall the pillowcases?
Speaker 10: I do.
Speaker 2: They were light I'll agree with Andrew. They weren't navy
Speaker 2: or brown.
Speaker 11: They were just light colored pillowcases, just ordinary pillowcases.
Speaker 1: Do you recall seeing any sheets in the car?
Speaker 11: No. I was surprised because there was no thing really
Speaker 11: in it, no other betting. Now, it was just like
Speaker 11: it was like the pillow case was used as the suitcase.
Speaker 1: Ye for the kids while his children were staying at
Speaker 1: your house. Did he bring sheets or betting for them?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Nothing. Minutes after the completion of that call, Maddie and
Speaker 1: I recorded a separate chat. She was in her bedroom
Speaker 1: in Sydney and I was driving my car to the
Speaker 1: Brisbane Writers Festival for talk about true crime and podcasting.
Speaker 1: We debriefed on parts of the conversation that we just
Speaker 1: had with Andy and Michelle.
Speaker 12: What struck me as particularly interesting was that we know
Speaker 12: that beds were stripped, as mel told us, where the sheets?
Speaker 1: It took the sheets and they were with my car.
Speaker 5: No, So where else could they possibly be.
Speaker 1: They have said that there were just kids things in
Speaker 1: the why she missed? She yes, kids, she wouldn't say
Speaker 1: anything about she.
Speaker 5: It's not like he chucked them in the wash.
Speaker 1: And he didn't go into the red house with bedding
Speaker 1: apart from the pillowcases. If he even took those.
Speaker 2: Here, Yeah, and where are they?
Speaker 1: Where are they?
Speaker 6: Well exactly and at that age, I'm sure the girls
Speaker 6: would have had single beds, which makes sense for there
Speaker 6: to be two pillowcases, both the same color.
Speaker 5: So I am leaning.
Speaker 6: Towards the idea that she was wrapped in the kid's sheets.
Speaker 6: Who was that lady that recalled the car driving bike?
Speaker 5: But that was in the back seat.
Speaker 1: At that stage, we had still not found Jude. She
Speaker 1: had not found us, and Maddie and I were skeptical
Speaker 1: about a purported sighting of something that looked like a
Speaker 1: body wrapped in a seat in the car. We were
Speaker 1: skeptical because we could not get our heads around how
Speaker 1: in the dark at nighttime a witness would see something
Speaker 1: in an unlit car. But we didn't know back then
Speaker 1: what Jude would tell me when she reached out just
Speaker 1: days later, that the interior light of the car was
Speaker 1: on and that as a result, Jude had a clear
Speaker 1: and haunting view inside the car. Let's go back to Thursday,
Speaker 1: June thirteen. I'm with Jude at her daughter's house near Tweed, heeads.
Speaker 1: I asked Jude about her visit to the Ballona Police
Speaker 1: station in nineteen ninety three to report what she had seen.
Speaker 1: Do you think that when you described what you saw
Speaker 1: there was any room for misunderstanding at that time what
Speaker 1: I saw in the car? Yeah, like when you were
Speaker 1: telling them in the Ballona police station what you've told us,
Speaker 1: presumably what you've told us. Is it possible that somehow
Speaker 1: what you conveyed wasn't properly understood by them.
Speaker 2: Well, I can only tell them what I'm telling you,
Speaker 2: and that's all I had to say on it. I
Speaker 2: wasn't in there for that long.
Speaker 1: It hasn't changed.
Speaker 2: No, the story doesn't change. Why would it.
Speaker 1: It's just extratly.
Speaker 2: I've told people along the way. My son, my daughter
Speaker 2: Trey knows about it, caring you about it.
Speaker 1: And if the police do want to take a proper
Speaker 1: statement from you this time, yep, that's okay. When I
Speaker 1: drove away from Dude's daughter's house after Sean and a photographer,
Speaker 1: Russell Shakespeare had got everything they needed. A decision was
Speaker 1: due in about half an hour. In the case of
Speaker 1: Lynn Simms, her husband who murdered her in nineteen eighty two,
Speaker 1: Chris Dawson had lodged in a and his lawyers had
Speaker 1: put up a determined legal case to try to reverse
Speaker 1: the conviction and free him from prison. Israe An came
Speaker 1: for SBS World News.
Speaker 13: In the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal, a
Speaker 13: bid to overturn a high profile murder conviction. Lawyers for
Speaker 13: Chris Dawson, who is now seventy five, arguing there was
Speaker 13: a miscourage of justice at his trial in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1: But I couldn't bear to watch the media's live streamlink
Speaker 1: as the decision of three judges was handed down. It
Speaker 1: was too unnerving. Instead, I pulled into a nearby MacDonald's
Speaker 1: and worked on episode six of Bromman to ensure it
Speaker 1: could be released later in the day. Dave Murray sent
Speaker 1: me a text just after two pm. It said, simply
Speaker 1: appeal dismissed. On the Australians podcast The Front, Claire Harvey
Speaker 1: had more to say.
Speaker 9: The judge swept into the room and took their seats
Speaker 9: for what turned out to be a lightning quick sitting
Speaker 9: of the Court of Criminal Appeal, New South Wales's highest court.
Speaker 9: The judges accepted Chris Dawson could appeal to The court,
Speaker 9: heard the appeal and rejected it. His conviction for Lynn's
Speaker 9: murder stands. The judges published reasons made it crystal clear.
Speaker 9: First Justice Anthony Payne, I.
Speaker 1: Have no doubt about the applicant skilt.
Speaker 3: Justice Julie Ward.
Speaker 9: The circumstantial case against the applicant was compelling and there
Speaker 9: is no reasonable doubt as to the applicants skilt.
Speaker 2: Justice Christine Adamson.
Speaker 9: None of the arguments advanced on behalf of the applicant
Speaker 9: causes me to doubt the applicants guilt of murdered. Greg
Speaker 9: and Marilyn had liked and trusted Chris, Lynn's handsome, football
Speaker 9: playing teacher husband. They were deeply confused and upset when
Speaker 9: he told Lynn's family in nineteen eighty two that Lynn
Speaker 9: had gone away from for a break and that Lynn
Speaker 9: had told him not to worry about her.
Speaker 1: Here's Lynn's brother, Greg Simms and his very supportive wife Marilyn.
Speaker 1: We've been in touch for many years leading up to
Speaker 1: the teacher's past, and for the six years since that
Speaker 1: podcast launched, we've become close friends through many ups and downs.
Speaker 14: Well waiting for the judges to come out, they're verdict
Speaker 14: if you want to call it that, very tense and
Speaker 14: it's the longest minute I've had in my life waiting
Speaker 14: and listeningly. We are extremely happy and the law has
Speaker 14: done the right thing in our minds.
Speaker 9: And what do you hope Chris Dawson does now?
Speaker 14: I hope he sits back in his cell and enjoy
Speaker 14: us the next twenty years.
Speaker 5: We're very grateful that justice has been done as far
Speaker 5: as were concerned twice over.
Speaker 2: Now right, and yes.
Speaker 1: We must be thinking what has come on? Over a
Speaker 1: Saturday and Sunday in mid June, Dave Murray, Claire Harvey
Speaker 1: and I tried to locate someone with a nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: seven Ford Falcon XF sa'dan someone who wouldn't mind it
Speaker 1: being featured in a true crime podcast and in accompanying videos.
Speaker 1: The car needed to have automatic transmission, but we were
Speaker 1: not going to be fussy about the color. John and
Speaker 1: Bromwyn Winfield's Ford Falcon XF SADAN of that vintage was white. Finally,
Speaker 1: Dave found a blue one in the city of Ipswich,
Speaker 1: about a thirty minute drive from my house closer to Brisbane.
Speaker 1: Bianca Farmachus from the Sydney office of The Australian flew
Speaker 1: to Brisbane on Monday morning. Bianca is the voice of
Speaker 1: Bromwan in this podcast series.
Speaker 3: When we moved to Lennox Head, I was even more lonely.
Speaker 2: The house that was Bill became John's castle.
Speaker 1: In my prison, Bianca reads Bromwyn's letters and notes the
Speaker 1: ones Bromwin wrote back in nineteen ninety three. And Bianca
Speaker 1: is the same height as Bromwan one hundred and seventy
Speaker 1: three centimeters. She has the same slender build as Bromwin.
Speaker 1: Biancha did not bat an eyelid when she was told
Speaker 1: we would be wrapping her up in a sheet, wrapping
Speaker 1: her to look something like an Egyptian mummy, and then
Speaker 1: picking her up and putting her in the back of
Speaker 1: an old Ford Falcon along with a surfboard. Sean picked
Speaker 1: bianchor up at Brisbane Airport. Dave and I went separately
Speaker 1: to the Ipswich home of Ash and Kate, the friendly
Speaker 1: Ford Falcon owners. We told Ash and Kate that we
Speaker 1: needed their car for a couple of hours, and they
Speaker 1: were only too happy to help. Thanks, guys, you've been
Speaker 1: watching us recreating some things here.
Speaker 2: Today we're going right into the true crime sort of
Speaker 2: stuff and all the unsolved stuff, and that's cool seeing
Speaker 2: it first.
Speaker 1: And Will were very grateful to you and your wife
Speaker 1: for letting us use your car. Problem, So, how are
Speaker 1: you feeling about doing this?
Speaker 15: Perplexed, a little off put? It is definitely a confronting
Speaker 15: kind of thing to recreate. Us being able to do
Speaker 15: it will prove a bigger point and paint a broader
Speaker 15: picture of something we haven't seen yet.
Speaker 1: Dave's just helping take the plates off for Forward Fathton
Speaker 1: because we don't want the personalized plates to show up.
Speaker 1: You weren't even born in nine eighty seven when this
Speaker 1: car was made, were you not at all?
Speaker 2: No, about ten years before my prime.
Speaker 1: We got Sean's six foot long surfboard in very easily,
Speaker 1: and we placed it the way Jude had described it.
Speaker 1: There's plenty of room in here, nose first, with fins
Speaker 1: towards the back door. And yeah, once again, that's got
Speaker 1: it very easily.
Speaker 16: So you could potentially fit in a board up to
Speaker 16: close to seven foot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you could even go longer because you could turn
Speaker 1: it over and put the nose on the dash and
Speaker 1: the back of it on the back bench.
Speaker 16: Looks like there's plenty of room there to put the
Speaker 16: board in over the top and have somebody stretched out across.
Speaker 1: The back and the board actually in that position, it
Speaker 1: gives a bit of cover for someone looking in from
Speaker 1: the other direction. The next bit was the most challenging.
Speaker 1: Three middle aged white nails needed to literally wrap the
Speaker 1: anchor up in a sheet and then pick her up
Speaker 1: and place her in the back of the car. We
Speaker 1: needed then to cover her head, and we needed to
Speaker 1: see if she would fit with the surfboard in the
Speaker 1: way Jude had described it. I wanted to wrap your
Speaker 1: head as well, but I worried about your breathing. We'll
Speaker 1: put it in low case over your feet. How do
Speaker 1: you think it pill that case for her head? Look?
Speaker 1: Probably it's not really read plays, is it?
Speaker 3: Why do you like and roll me?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 14: Do you.
Speaker 1: Actually sean? Would you be able to help Dave At
Speaker 1: the torso end? You went straight in like a club.
Speaker 1: It's like she's seated, but with the legs stretched out
Speaker 1: through towards the seat belt holders of the front seat.
Speaker 1: Definitely works and you're not even pushed up. Can you
Speaker 1: describe how you are sitting.
Speaker 15: I'm in the left hand backseat, feed up on the console.
Speaker 15: I'm sitting like you would sit on a long drive
Speaker 15: down the coast.
Speaker 1: You're wrapped in this bedsheet from home that now is
Speaker 1: covered into the grass because we had to roll you
Speaker 1: in it. I think what we're not properly representing. Here's
Speaker 1: the head. We could just do a try for a second.
Speaker 1: It's going to we should photograph it with the doors closed.
Speaker 1: It's going to shut these doors. Are you still okay?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Sean is great with the technology and Dizmo's. He flew
Speaker 1: the drone to film down into the car.
Speaker 16: I'm just panning around the car with the drone so
Speaker 16: you could get several different angles. You can see quite
Speaker 16: clearly into the cabin from this height, which we're trying
Speaker 16: to replicate the angle of Jude's deck down onto the street.
Speaker 16: We're covering these different angles shows us probably the car
Speaker 16: as it came into view all the way around to you,
Speaker 16: as it faded out of you going down the street.
Speaker 1: You could be EVAs. It's important because Jude describes sitting
Speaker 1: on the deck upstairs, you know, a little balcony and
Speaker 1: a lamp that was on, and she's looking down and
Speaker 1: she said previously, during daylight hours she could see into
Speaker 1: pretty much a big car that went past. And her
Speaker 1: friend Carrie told me that when she would sit up there,
Speaker 1: she also saw into cars. And at night you wouldn't
Speaker 1: usually be to sce into the car, but the interior
Speaker 1: light is on. As described by Jude, this exercise is
Speaker 1: really just to see if we can fit a six
Speaker 1: foot plus surfboard into the car, to see if we
Speaker 1: can fit a woman in the same height and very
Speaker 1: similar build to Bromo in the car at the same time.
Speaker 1: That's Bianca. We've done that, We've reproduced both those things.
Speaker 1: She says she saw a vehicle, John's vehicle and John
Speaker 1: driving that, and what she describes as a money that
Speaker 1: looked like a wrapped body in the backseat. The exercise
Speaker 1: went smoothly, and it was eerie seeing the shape of
Speaker 1: a body in a car our friend, Bianca wrapped in
Speaker 1: a light colored sheet and positions similarly to how Jude
Speaker 1: was sure she had seen it. After Sean and Dave
Speaker 1: had finished taking photographs in film. It was time to
Speaker 1: rescue the brilliant bianchor. We're going to free you from
Speaker 1: the pillowcase. I think we can get you out of
Speaker 1: the back seat now and unwrap you from the sheet
Speaker 1: that I'll need to give a good wash when I
Speaker 1: get home. Thank you, it's okay.
Speaker 3: How are you feeling a very intense experience.
Speaker 15: I was expecting this to take hours, you know, of repositioning,
Speaker 15: of moving around, but it just slotted right in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're fit in easily and there's plenty of space.
Speaker 1: The surfboards over your lower courser, your legs, you're wrapped up.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've done as much as we can to
Speaker 1: try to reproduce what Jude has described to me.
Speaker 15: One swift motion and I was here.
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for bronwin includes Claire Harvey,
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio
Speaker 1: production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio, and
Speaker 1: original theme music by Slade Gibson have been assisted by
Speaker 1: Madison Walsh, a relation of Roman Winfield. We can only
Speaker 1: do this kind of journalism with the support of our
Speaker 1: subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman. For all
Speaker 1: of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents about
Speaker 1: this podcast and other podcasts, including The Teacher's Pet, The
Speaker 1: Teacher's Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy and
Speaker 1: The Night Driver. Go to the Australian dot com dot
Speaker 1: au and subscribe,