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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. This is

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Speaker 1: the most important episode in the Bromwan podcast series so far.

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Speaker 1: It is going to disclose a major new development in

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Speaker 1: this investigation into Bromwin's disappearance. It is so serious it

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Speaker 1: should prompt Senior Detective Nigel Warren or an another member

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Speaker 1: of the Unsolved Homicide unit in Sydney to beat a

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Speaker 1: path to the door of a woman from whom you'll

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Speaker 1: hear shortly. Her name is Judy Singh. She is sixty

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Speaker 1: nine years old, a Korean nurse who retired a few

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Speaker 1: years ago and she now lives with her daughter's family

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Speaker 1: in northern New South Wales. Our first conversation was a

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Speaker 1: recorded interview over the telephone on Tuesday, June eleven. Here

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Speaker 1: is some of what Jude told me then.

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Speaker 2: And this night I was sitting up and I saw

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Speaker 2: the car pool out at the end of the street

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Speaker 2: when the light was on in the car. There's very

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Speaker 2: squeaky brakes on that car, and he drove very slowly

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Speaker 2: along the street, but he had left the car light

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Speaker 2: on and I could see directly into the car, and

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Speaker 2: I had a small lantern on the balcony rail and

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Speaker 2: he kind of looked up this night and I saw

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Speaker 2: this what looked to be like a mummy in the

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Speaker 2: back of the car, and I thought, gott it be

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Speaker 2: going late at night with you know, something that looked

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Speaker 2: like I just called it a mummy. And I've said

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Speaker 2: this to my son so many times about this, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, well, even if he was taking out belongings,

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't make it look like a body, do you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: So when you say a mummy, it was wrapped in something.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it was either very pale green or cream, not white,

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Speaker 2: but maybe like a bed sheet or something like that.

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Speaker 2: And I wanted the police to know that because I

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Speaker 2: thought the pressure of that, the weight of that on

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Speaker 2: the door might have been what was keeping the light on.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that happens in an old falcon.

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Speaker 2: It was a square falcon, and I remember it well.

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Speaker 2: It always had squeaky brakes.

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Speaker 1: Are you clear on the date that you saw what

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Speaker 1: you believe?

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of weeks after my birthday.

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Speaker 1: Jude's birthday is May one. Bromwin disappeared two weeks and

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Speaker 1: one day later, May sixteen.

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Speaker 2: I know that he had something in that car that

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Speaker 2: resembled a body, just a body shape in the back seat. Oh,

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Speaker 2: it was late. It was late at night. The kids

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Speaker 2: were in bed, two older children, and this being in

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Speaker 2: my head kept saying it looked like a mummy, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, oh shit, that when I heard that, you know,

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Speaker 2: she had been reported missing, that that might have ben

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Speaker 2: there mummy. You know, That's what sticks in my mind

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Speaker 2: about the shape of what I saw.

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Speaker 1: God, I mean, I know what I visualize when I

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Speaker 1: think of a mummy, but I don't want to put

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Speaker 1: words in your mouth. Can you describe it?

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Speaker 2: Well? Aroundish around his head with this light green or

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Speaker 2: beige covering on it. It was long. Wasn't a surfboard

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Speaker 2: because the surfboard would have sharp edges. I've been through

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Speaker 2: that in my head as well. It had to be

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Speaker 2: something round, like a head or a ball. But then

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Speaker 2: it was long and you know covered. That's what I remember.

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Speaker 2: Where was the head of the mummy riding the corner

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Speaker 2: on the back behind the passinger seat in the back.

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Speaker 2: The head of the mummy was in the corner, pressing

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Speaker 2: up against the door. She was quite.

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Speaker 1: Upright, almost like in a seated fashion. In the back.

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Speaker 2: Yes, she probably would have had a bend in it somehow.

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Speaker 2: The roundness of the head was very visible. This was

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Speaker 2: a light green or or sort of creamy colored sheet.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what color sheets John had, but it

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Speaker 2: was like a shroud, you know, like a body. I've

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Speaker 2: dealt with a lot of dead bodies in my life

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Speaker 2: as an earth I can't be mistaken because the light

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Speaker 2: was on in the car.

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Speaker 1: Was it possible for you to actually identify him as

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Speaker 1: John Winfield when you looked in?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah it was.

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Speaker 2: It definitely him, without a doubt in my mind. It

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Speaker 2: was hidden. That's it. That's the story. God, dude, you

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Speaker 2: wonder why the police wouldn't be interested in that. Even now,

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Speaker 2: I start getting quite turned up inside when I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: about it. You know, it's just one of those things

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Speaker 2: and I've had to with and my son Bo and

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Speaker 2: I talk about it a lot. I said to him

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Speaker 2: the other day, I said, you know, this is podcast

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Speaker 2: came on, you know, the Australian newspaper. And I said

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Speaker 2: to my son, oh, there's this podcast about about brom

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Speaker 2: and I haven't actually seen it. I said, oh, crikey,

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Speaker 2: what what should I do? You know? And he said,

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Speaker 2: oh it's crazy, Mom, You've been thinking about that forever.

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Speaker 2: And I said, oh, I ready, and he said, oh, great,

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Speaker 2: great good. I need get off your conscience. He said, Mum,

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Speaker 2: you've always, you know, angst over this. What ain't you

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Speaker 2: in here? So that's what I did.

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Speaker 1: After we had been talking for about an hour and

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Speaker 1: fifteen minutes, in which time Jude had disclosed so much more,

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Speaker 1: including her two visits to police stations in Balana in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three and a decade or so later in

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Speaker 1: Byron to tell officers what she saw that night. I asked,

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Speaker 1: did you feel better for having disclosed these things? Now?

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Speaker 2: Nell? He died, recently, Well, I'm taking this to the

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Speaker 2: great Always some relief when you can get something out,

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Speaker 2: you know, and what the sake of those girls?

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Speaker 1: You were going to hear more from Jude later in

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Speaker 1: this episode. You were also going to hear from others

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Speaker 1: about what she witnessed in mid May nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 1: when she lived in Granite Street, just a few doors

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Speaker 1: away from John and Bromwin's house in Sandstone Crescent I

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Speaker 1: first heard about Jude in early January twenty twenty three

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Speaker 1: about and a woman called Kerry McLain sent me a

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Speaker 1: brief email. Then There were no explanatory notes, just the

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Speaker 1: words Bromwin, Winfield, Lennox Head and a date May sixteenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. I replied to Kerry, I wrote, it's

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Speaker 1: an intriguing case. Do you know anything about it? Kerry

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Speaker 1: emailed back with some very specific information. She told me

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Speaker 1: that Cristel lived with Carrie in Kerrie's home in Ballina

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Speaker 1: as a border when Cristel was finishing her last year

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Speaker 1: of high school there. Her stepfather John was leaving to

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Speaker 1: go to Sydney for a building project. But Carrie added

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Speaker 1: something else. She wrote that she had a friend who

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Speaker 1: lived in the same street as the Winfields, and Kerry

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Speaker 1: had been told by her friend that she had seen something.

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Speaker 1: Carrie added that she urged her friend to pass the

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Speaker 1: information onto police, but she said that her friend had

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Speaker 1: a sick baby at the time and carry wasn't sure

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Speaker 1: how her friend had handled the information to get it

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Speaker 1: off her own chest. Carrie passed the information onto a

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Speaker 1: detective some years later. Kerry didn't mention the name of

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Speaker 1: her friend in her email to me, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to press things at that stage. Early January twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three, I had started writing my book The Teacher's Pet,

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Speaker 1: which took up much of that year, and there was

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Speaker 1: still unfinished business with the newly convicted wife killer Chris Dawson.

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Speaker 1: His trial for unlawful sex with an underage schoolgirl became

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Speaker 1: a series called The Teacher's Accuser, and I worked on

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Speaker 1: this each week with my journalist colleagues and friends David Murray,

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Speaker 1: Claire Harvey, Matthew Condon, and Kristin Amiot. It would be

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Speaker 1: another year before I could properly commit to a thorough

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Speaker 1: investigation and podcast series revolving around Broman's disappearance, but it

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Speaker 1: is important to keep every email contact and tip off.

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Speaker 1: The Bromin Winfield folder on my laptop grew. After thanking

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Speaker 1: Kerry McLain in January twenty twenty, I assured her that

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Speaker 1: I would be back in touch when there was time

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Speaker 1: to revive Broman's case, and so in February twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: about three months before the release of the first episode

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Speaker 1: in this podcast series, I recorded an interview with Kerry

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties. Her surname was Ensby, and she

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Speaker 1: started telling me about her connection to Bromwin's daughter Crystal.

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Speaker 3: How she came here was there must have been a

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Speaker 3: little ad in the paper board wanted for a student.

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Speaker 3: So I just rang that number and she moved in.

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Speaker 3: She must have been about sixteen.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty unusual a girl in a family situation at

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Speaker 1: that stage of a high school needing to move in

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Speaker 1: with a stranger. What's going on there?

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Speaker 3: Well, he was going to Sydney to work. The house

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Speaker 3: is very welcoming. I'm very welcoming. She was safe, while

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Speaker 3: she was dear. She settled in quite good, went off

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Speaker 3: to school. She was quiet, she wasn't over talkative, very

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Speaker 3: tall girl. All teenage girls need their mum. She was

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Speaker 3: really keen on doing school. I mean she was a

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Speaker 3: nice girl, not wild or anything like a lot of

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Speaker 3: the kids that I've had here.

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Speaker 1: Did she tell you then that her mother had disappeared?

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Speaker 1: Or Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yes, he talked a little bit about it, No doubt

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Speaker 3: it was on her mind all the time.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what happened to Lauren while you were

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Speaker 1: looking after her?

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Speaker 3: She went with her dad to Sydney, So.

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Speaker 1: I reckon she was living with you when she made

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Speaker 1: a police statement in Balinat in July nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I think I can remember.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In fact, she definitely was, yeah, because she says in

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Speaker 1: paragraph three, I'm presently residing at and I won't say

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Speaker 1: you address with three ensby and three young children.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah, my name was Zensby.

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Speaker 1: Yep. Maddie Walsh, Bromwin's twenty one year old second cousin,

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Speaker 1: who has been doing her own homework for me in

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Speaker 1: this podcast series and being an enormous help, asked her

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Speaker 1: teenager sister Tianna to read Crystal's police statement.

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Speaker 4: I have attended the Balliner police station today again of

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Speaker 4: my own free will. I've been very concerned about what

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Speaker 4: has happened to my mother and I would like the

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Speaker 4: police to conduct a thorough investigation to try and find

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Speaker 4: out what has happened to her.

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Speaker 1: Tiana is sixteen, the same age Crystal was when she

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Speaker 1: was living with Kerry McLain and went with a school

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Speaker 1: teacher to make her statement to police in Ballina in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 4: I had been requested by a detective Sergeant Taylor to

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Speaker 4: make a statement concerning my knowledge of my mother's disappearance.

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Speaker 4: I am prepared to do that, and I understand that

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Speaker 4: the statement may be given to the coroner to assist

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Speaker 4: in any further inquiry. I had been asked what recollection

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Speaker 4: I have back in May nineteen ninety three, when my

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Speaker 4: father arrived at the family home in Sanson Crescent, this

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Speaker 4: apparently being the day my mother disappeared. I remember being

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Speaker 4: at home in the early evening when I received a

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Speaker 4: telephone call, and from my recollection, it was from my father.

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Speaker 4: I don't remember what it was that I spoke about,

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Speaker 4: but it was not long after this that my father

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Speaker 4: arrived at the house. I remember my mother saying something like,

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Speaker 4: what are you doing here? My father says something about

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Speaker 4: having caught a plane back to Ballina. When I first

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Speaker 4: saw my father, another lady was with him at the

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Speaker 4: front door, but she virtually left straight away. I remember

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Speaker 4: Dad coming into the kitchen and I was sitting watching telephone.

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Speaker 4: My dad and Mom started talking, but I don't know

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Speaker 4: what was being said. I think at one stage they

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Speaker 4: went into the bedroom and they were talking in there.

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Speaker 4: I remember Mom and Dad were talking about on paid bills,

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Speaker 4: and Mum saying something along the lines about not talking

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Speaker 4: about it in front of Lauren and myself. The next

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Speaker 4: thing that I remember was Mum telling myself and my

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Speaker 4: sister Lauren to clean our teeth and go to bed.

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Speaker 4: I think we normally went to bed about eight thirty

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Speaker 4: pm each night. After I went to bed, I heard

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Speaker 4: Mum and Dad arguing in the kitchen. I could hear

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Speaker 4: Mom crying at the same time. I don't recall what

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Speaker 4: was being said between Mum and Dad, but I could

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Speaker 4: tell that they were arguing. I could hear them arguing

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Speaker 4: until I must have fell asleeph My next recollection that

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Speaker 4: night was being woken by my father. Dad told me

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Speaker 4: that he was taking Lauren and I to Sydney. I

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Speaker 4: recall that we packed a small bag of clothes and

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Speaker 4: got into Pekar. My dog, whose name was Mopsie, was

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Speaker 4: also put into the car with us. At that time,

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Speaker 4: we had an old white Falcon. After we got in

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Speaker 4: the car and Dad started driving, Lauren asked Dad where

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Speaker 4: Mum was. I remember Dad saying something about Mum going

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Speaker 4: away on a holiday and he was taking us to Sydney.

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Speaker 4: Dad says something about that he had a job to

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Speaker 4: do and that we would have to go with him

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Speaker 4: to Sydney. I recalled that we stopped at a petro

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Speaker 4: station somewhere, but I don't remember where it was. I

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Speaker 4: don't remember much about the rest of the trip to Sydney.

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Speaker 4: I remember we stayed in Sydney for a couple of

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Speaker 4: weeks before returning to Lennox Head. Dad never mentioned anything

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Speaker 4: to me about Mum while I was in Sydney. I

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Speaker 4: recalled that Lauren was asking Dad all the time about

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Speaker 4: Mum and he just said that she'd be back soon.

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Speaker 4: I became aware after a couple of weeks that Mum

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Speaker 4: had been reported missing to the police, but Dad never

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Speaker 4: spoke to me about it.

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Speaker 2: A month.

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Speaker 4: I just presume that Mom just wasn't coming back. I

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Speaker 4: was only ten years of age at that time, so

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Speaker 4: I just thought she had left. I have not had

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Speaker 4: any contact with my mother since her disappearance in nineteen

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Speaker 4: ninety three. Over the years, I have often thought about

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Speaker 4: what has.

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Speaker 5: Happened to her.

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Speaker 4: Dad has never brought up my mother in conversation. Basically,

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Speaker 4: over the years, my mother has gradually been built out

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Speaker 4: of our lives. My Dad never talks about Mum or

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Speaker 4: his past relationship with her. I have never tried to

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Speaker 4: bring up mom in conversation with my father. I am

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Speaker 4: aware that he does not like to talk about her.

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Speaker 4: I am very concerned about what has happened to my mother,

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Speaker 4: and that is why I've attended the police station today

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Speaker 4: to speak to the police. I have been asked by

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Speaker 4: Detective Sergeant Taylor if I have any knowledge of any

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Speaker 4: domestic disputes between my mother and father. I remember that

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Speaker 4: Mom and Dad used to argue on occasions. Dad sometimes

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Speaker 4: has a bad temper and equal goose control. I've seen

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Speaker 4: my father hit my mother on rare occasions. I remember

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Speaker 4: that he was smack Lauren on myself, and on one

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Speaker 4: occasion he picked me up and threw me against the wall.

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Speaker 4: Dad always liked the house to be kept spotlessly clean,

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Speaker 4: and he would get upset if we made any mess

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Speaker 4: in the house.

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Speaker 1: You are going to hear more from Crystal's nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: nine statement later in this episode. Here's Kerry McLain again,

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Speaker 1: And just a reminder, this conversation I'm having with Kerry

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Speaker 1: occurred on February twenty two of this year, twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: about three and a half months before I had any

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Speaker 1: contact with Jude. You contacted me a year ago yeah,

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Speaker 1: was that part of your frustration that nothing had happened.

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Speaker 3: I was listening to podcasts and you said, if there's

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Speaker 3: anything that you should be investigating or any ideas, email me,

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Speaker 3: and I thought, right, that's all I need. So I've

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Speaker 3: got online found your email address because it's always bothered

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Speaker 3: me that nothing's happening. And something did happen there. And

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Speaker 3: then there was news reports they were opening the case,

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Speaker 3: they were going to be looking at it, and I

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Speaker 3: made phone calls and told the detectives what I knew

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Speaker 3: about the friend living in the street, and I thought

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Speaker 3: that they should speak to her.

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Speaker 1: So what did you know?

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Speaker 3: Well, my friend lived in that street down the road,

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Speaker 3: a little bit double story place up high I visited

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Speaker 3: her there quite a few times. My friend Judy was

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Speaker 3: her name. She had a little baby with all these

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Speaker 3: health issues, and she was standing out on the balcony

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Speaker 3: early one morning and she saw I don't even know

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Speaker 3: his name, is it John? He drove past, and she

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Speaker 3: could see down into the car and she said there

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Speaker 3: was something whitish in the back seat. I said to

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Speaker 3: her that you should report that, but she had her

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Speaker 3: own issues at the time, and I don't think she

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Speaker 3: ever did. But years later, when I spoke to the detective,

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Speaker 3: I give him her name and said you need to

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Speaker 3: speak to her.

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Speaker 1: And did he.

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Speaker 3: I've got no idea.

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Speaker 1: Have you stayed in touch with her?

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Speaker 3: No? No, she moved away. No, I don't know where

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Speaker 3: she is. She had her own health problems.

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Speaker 1: And as best you can carry because it could be

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Speaker 1: pretty important, I haven't heard this before. Can you relate

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Speaker 1: precisely or as closely as you can? Remember what she

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Speaker 1: told you?

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Speaker 3: What I just said to you, that she saw him

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Speaker 3: driving down the street and she could see down into

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Speaker 3: the car and it looked like he had something on

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Speaker 3: the back seat. She said, it looked like a white sheet,

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Speaker 3: something wrapped in a white sheet, which I thought was jeez.

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Speaker 1: And you're certain that she described in those terms something

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Speaker 1: wrapped in a white sheet.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So.

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Speaker 1: Those are two big coincidences, Kerry. One that Crystal is

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Speaker 1: staying with you while police are investigating her mother's suspected yep.

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Speaker 1: And two that your friend who lives in the street

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Speaker 1: witnesses someddenly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.

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Speaker 3: It's been on my mind forever.

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Speaker 1: And what I'm wondering is, well, Crystal was calling your

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Speaker 1: place home. You have known what your friend knew.

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Speaker 3: Oh, so I would have.

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Speaker 1: Are you if I try to find Judy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she was divorced and then she married, so she

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Speaker 3: went by Judy Singh for a long time.

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Speaker 1: When your friend told you about this, did you believe

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Speaker 1: that she could be relied upon that she.

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Speaker 2: Was a Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I did, I did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: She wasn't one for telling tall stories. I think at

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Speaker 3: the time we both sort of made the comment, Well,

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Speaker 3: if that was her, she'd be in the dune somewhere.

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Speaker 1: Can you describe to me, then, how from her house

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Speaker 1: she would see into a car.

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Speaker 3: It's a p hie. It's double story, double garage at

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Speaker 3: the bottom, and up the top there's a glass sliding

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Speaker 3: door with a little falcony, not a very big one.

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Speaker 3: We used to stand out on that balcony and have

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Speaker 3: a cup of tea and you could see right down

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Speaker 3: into the cars as they drove past. And if you

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Speaker 3: see the house, you'll understand how that's possible.

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Speaker 1: Kerry's memory of what Jude disclosed was that she had

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Speaker 1: made the sighting in the early hours of the morning. However,

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Speaker 1: Jude has told me it was closer to midnight. What

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Speaker 1: sort of relevance do you know or think that she

359
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: attached to it.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think she thought that Bronwin was deceased in

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00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 3: the back seat, wrapped in a sheet, and he was

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Speaker 3: going to dispose of her in the sand dunes.

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Speaker 1: Why the sand dunes, Well, because he's.

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Speaker 3: A surfer, he'd know all the isolated places.

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Speaker 1: When do you think you first raised with police what

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Speaker 1: your friend Judy told you.

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Speaker 3: When they opened it up again and they were investigating.

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00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: Was that about two thousand and nine, so around fifteen

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Speaker 1: years ago.

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Speaker 3: Possibly, yeah, if that was when it was two thousand

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Speaker 3: and nine, yeah.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and nine there was a brief burst

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Speaker 1: of publicity and the Northern Star newspaper reported that the

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Speaker 1: Senior Detective George Radmore of the New South Wales Unsolved

375
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Speaker 1: Homicide Squad was reinvestigating Roman's disappearance.

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Speaker 3: I was living with this information and I don't know

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Speaker 3: whether Judy ever spoke to them, and I just wanted

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Speaker 3: to let them know that they need to speak to

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Speaker 3: this lady.

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Speaker 1: Right, So you were covering off, you were making sure.

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Speaker 3: I guess, like with these things, you sit back and

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00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 3: you think I'll someone will say something, and I just

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00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 3: wasn't sure because I knew what her life was like.

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Speaker 3: She had a lot going on and her own health battles.

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Speaker 1: Did they take a statement from you, Well, I.

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Speaker 3: Didn't sign anything. It was just over the phone.

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Speaker 1: Did anybody follow you up?

388
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: No, I've almost thought about this. Mothers just don't disappear.

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Speaker 3: They just don't leave their children.

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Speaker 1: And you've been a foster mum.

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00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 3: Yes, and I have seen mothers their addictions have taken

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00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 3: over them so much that they can't care for their

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00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 3: own children.

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Speaker 1: Of those one hundred and fifty children for whom you've cared,

395
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: how many mothers have abandoned those children, and to your knowledge,

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00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: have never wanted to connect with their kids. Kerry could

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00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: recall only one such case.

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Speaker 3: I just can't see it ever happening without extreme circumstances.

399
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 3: I've seen it all, But I believe in my heart

400
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 3: that mothers do not walk out on their children. I

401
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 3: had to ring them to get it off my chest

402
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 3: because I didn't want to live with this little piece

403
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 3: of information that I haven't passed on. I didn't want

404
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 3: to add to her stress, but I wanted to make

405
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 3: sure that someone would speak to her.

406
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Speaker 1: Absolutely, But you did the right thing.

407
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 3: Well, I felt better after doing it. But I don't

408
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 3: know that it went anywhere.

409
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Speaker 1: But you gave them the full name of Judy, and yeah,

410
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 1: it's interesting and I think disappointing that nobody got back

411
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: to you after you rang that information through the police.

412
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Speaker 3: Well, I was hoping they'd get in contact with Jude.

413
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 3: She's the one that should be speaking to, not me.

414
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: Was she still living there at the time.

415
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: No, her life was a little bit complicated, but a lovely,

416
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 3: honest person.

417
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Speaker 1: Well you've really been fantastic help, Carrie.

418
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 3: I hope, so, I hope it gets solved. I feel

419
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 3: like I have to speak up because I have that

420
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 3: little connection with Crystal being here. It's never too late,

421
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 3: is it.

422
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: No, it's not too late. Here's Maddie's sister Tiana again

423
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: reading the nineteen ninety nine statement of her relation Crystal.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what has happened to my mother, and

425
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 4: I'm unsure if Dad has any involvement in her disappearance.

426
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 4: I would rather the police not tell my father that

427
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 4: I have been into the police session or I've made

428
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 4: this statement. I understand the making of this statement is

429
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 4: of my own choosing. I've spoken to my sister Lauren

430
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 4: about her recollection of the night when my mother disappeared.

431
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 4: Lauren has told me that after she went to bed,

432
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 4: she got back up and went into my mother's bedroom.

433
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 4: Lauren said that Mum was in the bedroom crying and

434
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 4: Mum told her to go back to bed. Lauren said

435
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 4: that Mum took her back into her room and talked

436
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 4: her into bed. Laurence said to me that Mum told

437
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 4: her that she would see her in the morning. I've

438
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 4: often thought about it over the last six years. I

439
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 4: feel it strange that Mum would leave Lauren on myself

440
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 4: and not have any further contact. I was very close

441
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 4: to Mum and she always treated Lauren on myself very well.

442
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 5: Mum was always close to us.

443
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 4: She would often hug and cut a loss, and she

444
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 4: would always come in give us a kiss good night

445
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 4: and tell us that she loved us. To me, it

446
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 4: would be out of character for Mum to leave and

447
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 4: not say goodbye to us if she was going on

448
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 4: a holiday without us. I don't ever recall Mom leaving

449
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 4: myself or Lauren for any length of time. Mom never

450
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 4: went on a holiday without us, and for my recollection,

451
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 4: she was quite protective of us. I feel sure that

452
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 4: if Mum intended to go on a holiday without us.

453
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 5: She would have let us know.

454
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: About twelve thirty pm. On Sunday June nine, a few

455
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: days after the release of episode four of this podcast series,

456
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: I opened an email. It was from Jude Singh. We

457
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: had been trying to find her without success. I was

458
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: hopeful that she would hear about the podcast and contact me,

459
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: but there were no guarantees. Until I read Jude's email,

460
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: I couldn't understand how in darkness a neighbor could see

461
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: inside an unlit car as it passed by. By another coincidence,

462
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: on Sunday, June nine, Mattie Walsh, her mum and dad,

463
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: her sister Tiana, her brother Jai, and his girlfriend Chloe

464
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: visited my wife Ruth and I at our home in Brisbane,

465
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: four hours after Jude's email had landed in my inbox.

466
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: I quietly took Mattie aside and out to the driveway,

467
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: leaving our visitors on the deck. I showed her Jude's

468
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: email on my laptop, as well as my reply to Jude,

469
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: in which I had shared my mobile number, and I

470
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: asked Jude to please call me on it. Can I

471
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: have you just for five years? Nice to meet your family. Yeah,

472
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: I got this email. Just read that there, read it.

473
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 6: Out loud at home. The night John drove past my house.

474
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 6: I could see inside his car the light inside it

475
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 6: was still on. I lived in Granite Street, Linux Judy singh.

476
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 2: Wow.

477
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 5: So she contacted the website.

478
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: She's gone my personal website Headley Thomas dot com and

479
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: there's an option where you can send an email.

480
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 6: So the light inside the car was on, yeah, which

481
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 6: makes it sound that yeah, because if it was dark,

482
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 6: you wouldn't be up to see inside the car.

483
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 5: But the light was on.

484
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: So that's But she hasn't said anything else.

485
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 5: It's it'd be interesting to see what else she has

486
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 5: to say.

487
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I've emailed her back. Thanks for getting in touch.

488
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: Can you send me your number please, I'll call you

489
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: for a chat. And she hasn't got back to it yet,

490
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: but she obviously wants to talk.

491
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

492
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 6: Well, she wouldn't have reached out unless she had something.

493
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 6: And the fact that Karen mentioned it way back.

494
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: Maybe he'd left the interior light on by mistake.

495
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 5: Maybe was this do you reckon?

496
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 6: So if she's seen she could see inside the car,

497
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 6: is that to say that ron women's in the backseat

498
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 6: and the girls are still at the house, and he may.

499
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: Have Well, if what we believe her theory is is right,

500
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: then the girls must have still been at the house.

501
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 6: Yea, it makes sense he would have put Broumwin in

502
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 6: the back seat.

503
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 5: It's easier, probably compared with the boot.

504
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: Compare with the boot.

505
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: If she's right about what she fears she saw, then

506
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: Bromin's buried locally.

507
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 6: Yes, which is one possible, just as possible that she's

508
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 6: in Sydney or anywhere from Lennox Head to Sydney.

509
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I didn't consider the obvious thing that.

510
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 6: A light no't I've never thought of that because I.

511
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 5: Was thinking, how could she see in the car?

512
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: If she's just contacted us without any previous recent contact

513
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: with Terry, it just makes it look a whole lot

514
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: more credible.

515
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: It does.

516
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,479
Speaker 6: And the fact that she's not saying more than she

517
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 6: needs to she knows what we would know she's talking about.

518
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. Does she know we've talked to Cherry?

519
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: I doubt it. So why hasn't she said more?

520
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 5: I guess we'll have to wait and see.

521
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, she just giveing us on a toe. Gosh.

522
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: Now let's return to the interview with Jude. Her surname

523
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: was Willa Brands when she and her children lived in

524
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: a rented home very close to the Winfield House in

525
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: Lennox Head. Why do you believe that on the night

526
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: you saw the object in the car, the thing you've

527
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: described as the mummy, Why do you place it in

528
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: the late evening before midnight? Because I was having trouble

529
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: with my pregnancy.

530
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was worried about miscarriage actually, and just sitting

531
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: up my children had gone to bed. I just couldn't sleep,

532
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: worrying about it all, yeah, and is that give up

533
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: my job? But worrying about how it's going to pay rent.

534
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: In those days it was two hundred and twenty dollars

535
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: to live in that house a week up, having to

536
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: go on a pension and an absolute struggle. Lots of

537
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: things happened at that stage, you know, when things of

538
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: marriage breakdown and they went through defors.

539
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: Jude told me that she went to the police station

540
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,959
Speaker 1: in Ballina in nineteen ninety three to report what she saw.

541
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: Her visit to the station came after a neighbor, Virginia Bevers,

542
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: told Jude that Bromwin had disappeared. You heard from Virginia.

543
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: In a previous episode, John had been two police to

544
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: report Bromwyn missing in late May. The missing person report

545
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: triggered visits to Sandstone Crescent by detectives Graham Diskin and

546
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: Wayne Tembe. The neighbors were talking among themselves about Broman's

547
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: disappearance and the police visits. I just wanted to understand

548
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: that when you think you first went to the police,

549
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: or when?

550
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: Was it very close to when I saw that. I

551
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: talked to the Bin police first, and they took me

552
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 2: behind the counter. They gave me a card. Now my

553
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: things are in storage. I'm about to build a little

554
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 2: grainny flat in my daughter's backyard. And I kept that

555
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 2: card for a long long time in case somebody named

556
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 2: me and I could give them the particulars that were

557
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: written on the card.

558
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: Are you saying that they gave you a card, but

559
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: that you weren't actually spoken to by a detective about

560
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: what you saw at that time?

561
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was spoken to by somebody. I went behind

562
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 2: the counter in the Ballina police station, spake to a

563
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 2: man on the desk. He said, we'll come around take

564
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: a statement. I had a different name then to my name.

565
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: Now, what was your name then wille Brands. And he

566
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 1: didn't take a statement though, but you told him the story.

567
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: I believe they wrote something thing down, Yeah, and then

568
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: they gave me the card.

569
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: Did you form an impression then of how seriously or

570
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: not they were taking it?

571
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 2: Hardly? Interested? Hardly?

572
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: I can't understand why that would be.

573
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 2: Almost had to beg them to let me say something.

574
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: Those early early weeks. Was when I went there, I

575
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: actually just wanted to get it off my conscience, in

576
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 2: my mind, even though I had stuff going on. Yeah,

577
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: I went away feeling so despondent and thinking about those

578
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 2: dear little girls. I don't know. It was a strange

579
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 2: sort of a dude. He wasn't very friendly. As the

580
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 2: year progressed and my daughter was born and he had

581
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 2: to have an iliostomy put in place and really touch

582
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 2: and go, and I just got tied up. I had

583
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: a lot of shit going on, especially money. Was this

584
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 2: You could not work out how I was going to

585
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: so iinantually exist when I had to suddenly give up anyway,

586
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: do you get through them?

587
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: Jude described a second occasion years later, when she tried

588
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: again to alert local police to what she had seen.

589
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 2: I ran into a doctor right, and I told her

590
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 2: the story in a little cafe called the Being Seen

591
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 2: in ballin Er. Many years later, she came back to

592
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: the hospital and I was actually working in that little

593
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 2: hospital in McLean and she said to me, did you

594
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 2: go back to the police after you had that interview?

595
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 2: And I said no, I didn't, And she said, well,

596
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 2: we're going today.

597
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 1: Jude and the doctor, who was from New Zealand, drove

598
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: to the nearby Byron Bay Police station. Anyway, she taught

599
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: me into going to the Byron Bay Police station this time,

600
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: thinking somebody there might listen to us.

601
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 2: I spoke to a gentleman there and I said, you know, like,

602
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 2: I'm just always haunted by this story about this woman

603
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 2: at the end of the street. They didn't do an

604
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 2: official interview. I said, like, is there anyone here that

605
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 2: wants to write something down? It's hardly interested in any

606
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: of it.

607
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: When do you think it was that you went to

608
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: the Byron police with the doctor?

609
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: Oh this is years later?

610
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, Is there anything anyway you can roughly time frame

611
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 1: it by reference to what you were doing in Balner

612
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: at Bean's cafe or just an approximate.

613
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 2: What I was doing.

614
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: Well, I'm just trying to work out roughly what decade

615
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: we were in when you went to Byron to see

616
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: the police.

617
00:37:53,760 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 2: I moved to McClain when I was after fifty. Are

618
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 2: you going back so many years now, I'd say between

619
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: two thousand and two thousand and five, maybe middle of

620
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 2: the two thousand.

621
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a big help, thank you. And do you

622
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: recall the name of the police officer or anyone else

623
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: in Byron?

624
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 2: I only know that he came from Tamworth. I told

625
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 2: him who I was when I lived in Tamworth and

626
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: I said, my sister used to work at the Tamworth

627
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: police station. She was some superintendent's private secretary. He said

628
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: you're not dirty and I said yes. He said that

629
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 2: is amazing. So bought Jackson Memories for him. He knew

630
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 2: my sister Diane. He was around my age, maybe a

631
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 2: bit older, probably retired. Now.

632
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: Are they the two occasions that you remember and there

633
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: were no others or was there another occasion?

634
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 4: No?

635
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: I don't think so, Okay.

636
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 2: I think they are the only two occasions that I remember.

637
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: Okay. And just in relation to that doctor who you

638
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: remembered seeing again, what would be really important is if

639
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: I could talk to her as well, because she might remember,

640
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: might remember going with you. Yeah, do you have any

641
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: idea where I might be able to find her? Jude

642
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,280
Speaker 1: told me the doctor from New Zealand would have returned

643
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: to her home country as she was visiting as a

644
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: locom when Jude last saw her in Australia. She told

645
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: me the doctor had a very pretty.

646
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,439
Speaker 2: Name, since she went up to Gallana on that day

647
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 2: to have something to eat and have a look around,

648
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: and we just met over just having a meal and

649
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 2: a chat. And it must have been at that stage

650
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 2: I was talking to her about it when she came

651
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,280
Speaker 2: back to McClean. He said, I did you do something

652
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:01,919
Speaker 2: about that?

653
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: Do you know why you started talking to I guess

654
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,280
Speaker 1: someone who's a bit of a stranger about this event

655
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: from years earlier. You know what the catalyst was.

656
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 2: I can't even tell you why. Maybe it was it

657
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: was on my mind, or maybe something had happened and

658
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 2: it bought that story to mind to a good listener.

659
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 2: These things staying ahead, I can visually you just see

660
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 2: that car delight on him looking up. I don't think

661
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: he made an attempt to turn the light off or anything.

662
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: It was on right up to the end of the street.

663
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: I looked at the car going all the way. I

664
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: wasn't going fast in five k's something like that.

665
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 1: And Jude, can you describe your level of suspicion about

666
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: what it was that was in the car when you

667
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: were told that dra had disappeared.

668
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 2: Well, I was very concerned. When I start talking about

669
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: it with my son, he said, Mum, I can see

670
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 2: how I worked up to get about this. I was

671
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: almost just so surprised how uninterested people were, especially at

672
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: the police station, about this.

673
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: Jud I have to tell you something that you might

674
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: be a little bit surprised about. I heard a long

675
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 1: time ago. I can't remember exactly when. It could have

676
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 1: been months, certainly before this podcast. Investigation started about you

677
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 1: from someone you knew, someone who said that you were

678
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: really concerned about it, that you had seen something that

679
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: really troubled you. Someone has said that someone told me

680
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, and I was hoping that I would

681
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 1: be able to talk to you again.

682
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: Is it Virginia because Virginia lived across the road.

683
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: No, it's of Virginia, And I don't think the personal mind.

684
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: She was your friend and she was urging me to

685
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,439
Speaker 1: try to find you because she's lost contact with you

686
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: and I have been trying to find you.

687
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 2: Well, so I said, I changed my name. Yeah, I

688
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 2: married an Indian man and six months into the marriage

689
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 2: he said, oh, I can get my residency now. That's

690
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 2: all he wanted. So I went back to my house.

691
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 2: It was very short lived, and I've kept the name

692
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 2: only because I was a nurse and at McLean. I

693
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 2: went through a divorce and I went through breast cancer.

694
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: During that stressful period, chemotherapy, lost hair, I had to

695
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,959
Speaker 2: give up work again. It was just one bloody shit

696
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: struggle after another that stage. Who is that friend? Can

697
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: you tell me?

698
00:42:54,320 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: Her name's Kerry carry Ensby. I think that's it, Kerry mclauch.

699
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: I remember that she had Crystal, the daughter.

700
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 2: Yes, when I went through breast cancer, I actually stayed

701
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: with Carrie because I came out of hospital with all

702
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: the drains and what have you, and she said you'll

703
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 2: stay here, of course. And then I was sitting at

704
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: the table the next morning she said, I have a

705
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 2: girl here. Her name's Crystal, and her mum is missing

706
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 2: or presumed dead or whatever. I don't know what the

707
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: exact word. She said. Well she's here, I said, gosh,

708
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: that just leaves her. Shever over they Oh gosh, you

709
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: know like the fact that there was such a coincidence

710
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: that she.

711
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: Was there, Well, you must have disclosed it to Carrie,

712
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: and oh yeah, many times she really believed what you

713
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 1: had to say and was wanting to try to help

714
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: by putting me in touch with you somehow because she'd

715
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: lost touch with you.

716
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 2: That's amazing.

717
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,760
Speaker 1: That's another extraordinary coincidence, right.

718
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. That's good. That's another witness, yes to

719
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: what I've been saying of this. You think about that

720
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: thing on the back, see that look like a mummy,

721
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: and you just think to yourself, if anyone was moving

722
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: people's stuff around, they wouldn't make it look like a mummy.

723
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 2: They wouldn't go to that trouble.

724
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: There was nobody else in the car.

725
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 2: No, there's nobody else in the car. Their board, the

726
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: mummy and John. The years, there's been opportunities where I've

727
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: thought so strongly about doing something more about it. And yeah,

728
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: just brought it all back when I saw it on

729
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 2: the TV. You take that image and you live with

730
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: it and it's still there. Not something I imagined.

731
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 1: A couple of hours after my first interview with Jude.

732
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: On the morning of Tuesday, June eleven, he texted me

733
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 1: the name of a doctor from New Zealand, the woman

734
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: whom Jude says accompanied her to the Byron Bay Police station,

735
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: and three days after getting the text, I spoke to

736
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: the doctor. She is a general practitioner on the South

737
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: Island of New Zealand. I sat in my car in

738
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: Brisbane with doctor Kirsty Wright, a forensic biologist and expert

739
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: witness with whom I have worked on the Shandy Story

740
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: podcast series. Kirsty is a scientist of unimpeachable integrity and

741
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: I wanted her to witness the conversation. It was agreed

742
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: with the Kiwi doctor and the communications manager of the

743
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 1: organization which she worked for that I would not publish

744
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 1: their names in the podcast. The doctor confirmed key points

745
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: she had worked in the two thousands in the region

746
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: in northern New South Wales. She recalled Jude and she

747
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: volunteered that Jude had been gravely concerned that she had

748
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: witnessed something in relation to an alleged murder years earlier.

749
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: At first, the doctor from New Zealand told us that

750
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: she had a vague recollection that Jude might have, in

751
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: her words, chickened out of going to police about it

752
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: with her, But later in the conversation she said that

753
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,720
Speaker 1: in fact they had gone together two police in Byron

754
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: Bay about it, and the doctor said she had a

755
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: memory that the alleged murder concerned a man who was

756
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: she thought a concretor or someone who worked with blocks,

757
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: like a builder or bricklayer. She said, the doctor volunteered

758
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: to me that having observed Jude and heard what Jude

759
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: had to say, she believed the nurse. The doctor said

760
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 1: she regarded her as someone with sincere and honest concerns

761
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: about what she saw.

762
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 2: Sir sad to think that somebody's life like Miss Samantha

763
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 2: Murphy that's gone missing, for goodness, say, you know there

764
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 2: doing everything possible, aren't they? And yet I didn't feel

765
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 2: anything was done to bollowin or very little.

766
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, at the time, I spoke to Jude in a

767
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: second phone conversation and she told me this.

768
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 2: But when I saw it on the thing, I thought,

769
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 2: I said to my son this, it's an opportunity to

770
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: tell somebody again before you leave this earth. You don't

771
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: want to regret or something kind of plaguing you that

772
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: wasn't right near your gut instincts always you think if

773
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 2: you follow it, it's pretty much right. And I text

774
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 2: you the information about the thought of the doctor's name.

775
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 1: Yes, I saw that.

776
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a very lovely lady, very compassionate lady. He said,

777
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: why would you tell a stranger something like that? And

778
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: that's what I found it to be. Very compassionate. Yes,

779
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: and she obviously cares about people. We were both the

780
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 2: ethical people and we struck up this conversation. She just

781
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 2: told me to go to the police and see if

782
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 2: I could do something again. It must be eating at you,

783
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 2: and I said, and she said, well you should do that,

784
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 2: so she came. That's why she came with me.

785
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: When you left that Byron Bay police station with her,

786
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: or did you leave it with it? Yeah? Yeah, when

787
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: you left the station having spoken about it, did you

788
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:38,359
Speaker 1: think then that they were or had taken it seriously? Oh?

789
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 2: Not really. He said, well, we've got your name and

790
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 2: we've got your number and we'll get back to you.

791
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: But did he take you into an office and interview

792
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 1: you or no?

793
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 2: No, no, just spoke to me at the desk. My

794
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 2: son lived a couple of doors away and I was

795
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 2: then going to go visit him, So it was sort of.

796
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 1: So you described the incident properly, do you think over

797
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: the counter.

798
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I certainly did. They said, this is incredible

799
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 2: that you your dire sister and you know there we

800
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 2: are meeting in another town.

801
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm just wondering why you didn't think what was

802
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: really incredible was what you were disclosing.

803
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, mean blase about what I would call an important

804
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 2: thing somebody's life, and you felt like you could shake

805
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 2: somebody to say, look, you know, help me here. It's

806
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: thoughtful to say, isn't it.

807
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: It's remarkable, dude, Just remarkable. These clearly are very serious allegations,

808
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: and John Winfield has always emphatically denied wrongdoing. He has

809
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 1: told police that he saw Bromwin for the last time

810
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: about nine to thirty pm on Sunday, May sixteen, nineteen

811
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: ninety three, when he says that she told him she

812
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: needed to go away for a few days. On a

813
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: break in episode one of Bromman, we summarized John's position.

814
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 1: I have approached John Winfield and asked him for an interview.

815
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: John's side of the story is very important. So far,

816
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 1: John has declined to speak to me on the record

817
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 1: or on background. In an email to me on May

818
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: twenty one, twenty twenty four, John stated.

819
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 7: I have previously made a sworn statement in nineteen ninety

820
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 7: eight in which I answered four hundred and fifteen questions,

821
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 7: and as I said to George Radmore in twenty ten,

822
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 7: I stand by these answers I gave.

823
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: Those are John's words from his email. It's not his voice.

824
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: He answered questions in a nineteen ninety eight interview he

825
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,479
Speaker 1: agreed to do in Ballina Police station. Soon after the

826
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: then detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor had started to investigate Bromlan's

827
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 1: case properly for the first time. Twelve years later in

828
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: twenty ten, another experienced detective, George Radmore, who was with

829
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: the Homicide Squad of New South Wales, led a reinvestigation.

830
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 1: In John Winfield's email to me, he said he might

831
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,800
Speaker 1: bring legal action depending on the content of this podcast series,

832
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,720
Speaker 1: and John added there.

833
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 7: Is a generational history of mental illness, both male and female,

834
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 7: in the Reed family.

835
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: Before publishing anything in this podcast series, I wanted to

836
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: meet Jude and ask further questions. She raised no objection,

837
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 1: and I drove to a suburb near tweedtheads on the

838
00:51:50,920 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: Queensland New South Wales border. Maybe a lovely spot.

839
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 2: We can siderable table or sit in these chairs.

840
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 1: What do you think?

841
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 2: Sean?

842
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 1: Sean Callanan has come from the Brisbane office to film

843
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,280
Speaker 1: Jude and help develop an animated sequence of the car

844
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: and everything Jude has described. You can see this at

845
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: bromwynpodcast dot com, along with many other stories, photographs and graphics.

846
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: Who did you become a nurse when I was seventeen?

847
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 2: For a long time?

848
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: So Sean's here to help us picture what's been in

849
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 1: your memory all this time? Just for accuracy, It's been

850
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: in my head for a lot of years. Jude produced

851
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: a cream colored old photo album with happy snaps of

852
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 1: her and her children at the beach, at home, and

853
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: other family occasions. Going back to Lennox Head, she went

854
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: to several photographs of their old house there and she

855
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 1: showed me a second level deck which overlooks Granite Street

856
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 1: and can go to a map at the website Bromwyn

857
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Try to picture Granite Street joining up

858
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: with Sandstone Crescent at a right angle. On one side

859
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 1: of the road. There's Debon Murray's house that's on the

860
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: lower side. John and Bromwyn, their neighbors were next door,

861
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: but just a little higher in the street. To save

862
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: time on the way in or out of the U

863
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 1: shaped Sandstone Crescent, you can take a shortcut along Granite Street,

864
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: and that's where Jude lived. What you'll pointing to there

865
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: is the deck at five Granite Street at the front,

866
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: and you would have been sitting up here, so.

867
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 2: Right around this corner and in front of the dining

868
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 2: area next to May I had John and Dorothy. Okay,

869
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:52,840
Speaker 2: they moved to Barbie Island.

870
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: Nice part of the world. Jude pointed to another photograph that's.

871
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: Looking right up into the corner of where I said

872
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 2: I was just along here. If you walk a little

873
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 2: bit more, that's exactly.

874
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: Where I was right and the streets down here, there's a.

875
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 2: Great strengthening in front of me. Do you could see

876
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 2: over the railing without having to stand up?

877
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: For you? At that time that balcony late at night,

878
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: was it a place where you fell well what you

879
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 1: could collect your thoughts or have some serriity.

880
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:32,280
Speaker 2: And yeah, well, as I said, I was losing that child.

881
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:36,240
Speaker 2: And yeah, I couldn't sleep. I'm not a good sleeper.

882
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 2: I'm still a bit went insomnia years and years of

883
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 2: night duty.

884
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:46,439
Speaker 1: Sean brought up Sandstone Crescent on his laptop. We're just

885
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,479
Speaker 1: going to have a look at it as a street view,

886
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,280
Speaker 1: just to confirm that that's it. So that's marin Deb's

887
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:54,240
Speaker 1: house now, see with the second level there.

888
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 2: And over here there's a whole stack of wattlebrush. So

889
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 2: I saw him come into view just as he got

890
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 2: past the trees.

891
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: Were you also looking at the front of the car

892
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: as it approached or from that balcony? Was that not

893
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: something you could do?

894
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 2: Yes, I could see the lights coming up the street. Okay, yeah,

895
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 2: And I thought, well, dude, that's that's late.

896
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 1: Right.

897
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 2: You were saying that Murray saw him pull out without

898
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 2: lights and without any motor. That must have been earlier.

899
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 2: I'm thinking this was later because there was nothing going

900
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:34,720
Speaker 2: on in that street.

901
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: In episode four, you'll recall hearing Murray Nolan describing John's

902
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: car with its squeaky brakes reversing down the driveway of

903
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 1: the house at ten forty pm.

904
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 2: The car backed out with no lights on bottom.

905
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,439
Speaker 3: Down on the road, do a big room in the road,

906
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 3: and rolled down the hill.

907
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 8: Down the bottom of the hill, You're down here with

908
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 8: no lights on, turn the lights on starting and go

909
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 8: around alleyway.

910
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: But Jude is describing a different trip, and if her

911
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 1: recollection is correct, it must be on the same night

912
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 1: May sixteen. That's because all the evidence, including John's evidence

913
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: to police, puts him on an aircraft from Sydney to

914
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: Ballina late in the day and then at the house

915
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 1: at Sandstone Crescent, and then after a disagreement or altercation

916
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: with Bromwin, John's driving away from the house and through

917
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: the night to go to Sydney with the two girls,

918
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: Crystal and Lauren. John had not been in Lennox. He

919
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 1: had forced several weeks prior to May sixteen. John was

920
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: working in Sydney in the Shire at Glenn Webster's job site,

921
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: and John didn't stay overnight when he returned to Lenox.

922
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: Because John turned up in Sydney on the morning of Monday,

923
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: May seventeen.

924
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 2: My birthday was the first of May. Had not kept

925
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 2: dates on this it. All I know is it was

926
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 2: about two weeks after my birthday.

927
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,240
Speaker 1: That's why if Jude saw John driving the car about

928
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: two weeks after her birthday, it had to be the

929
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: night of May sixteen. The only night John was in

930
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 1: Lennox for some time, and the one night on which

931
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: John was the last person to see Roman alive when

932
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 1: they had a disagreement in the house just fifty meters

933
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: or so from Jude's place.

934
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 2: It was the dark street at night, so you couldn't

935
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: miss lights coming up. He looked up when he saw them,

936
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 2: and I could see this mummy light thing. And I

937
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 2: hate saying mummy because it is somebody's mummy. That It

938
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 2: was a long white with a rounded head right in

939
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 2: the very corner of the back of the car as

940
00:57:53,920 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 2: it went past. Closest to you, closest to men.

941
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: Has brought up images of a Ford Falcon sedan on

942
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: his laptop, and the three of us looked intently at

943
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 1: the screen. Sean, could you just zoom into the interior? Yeah,

944
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 1: that's good. Can you describe the positioning of the object

945
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: you refer to as a mummy in terms of where

946
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 1: if it is a mummy, the feet would be.

947
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 2: Well, her head was almost in a seated position, but

948
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 2: then heading.

949
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: That way, and then you're saying the head was in

950
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: this corner. Yes, Sean sketched a rough draft on paper

951
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah.

952
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you say to yourself. Was that what was

953
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 2: keeping a light on the pressure of that against the door?

954
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 2: It wasn't her. Why would somebody make something look like that?

955
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: Whatever was wrapping the object?

956
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 2: Can you describe that like a very soft, pale green

957
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 2: or cream of what? Like a sheet?

958
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 9: Like me?

959
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah? You could see the form.

960
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: And you still haven't listened to any of the podcasts,

961
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: have you, Jared? No, you haven't been influenced by anything

962
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 1: you've heard in the Bromin podcast series.

963
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 2: As I said to you, I can't get at some

964
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 2: things on my phone. And this is just what I saw.

965
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 1: Because if it hadn't been for illumination, presumably you wouldn't

966
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: see much inside a passing car.

967
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 2: That's why I'm quite clear on what I saw. Remembering

968
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 2: looking up, you said, are you sure it was him? Yes?

969
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 2: I'm sure it was him I saw.

970
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 1: Do you remember whether you disclosed to Virginia or anyone

971
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 1: else in the street what you're describing to us now?

972
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 10: I don't think so.

973
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 1: In episode four, you heard mel Taylor, the daughter of

974
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 1: Devon Murray, who was aged twelve when she went into

975
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:45,479
Speaker 1: John and Roman's house on Tuesday May eighteenth, nineteen ninety three.

976
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 1: Here's a reminder of something Mel disclosed while we were

977
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 1: talking in the nursery section of a public library in Brisbane.

978
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 8: What I find is strange about the whole thing is

979
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 8: johnd to come all the way up here to have

980
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 8: the argument with Bromwin, then to leave that same night

981
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:11,919
Speaker 8: in a hurry. Why don't you say till the next

982
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 8: morning then go back to Sydney. Why do we leave

983
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 8: in such a hurry?

984
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 1: And is that because you suspect flight urgent panic?

985
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah?

986
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 8: I noticed the house, what it looked like, the state

987
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 8: that was left in.

988
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 1: What do you remember about that?

989
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 8: There was the washing in the laundry, the dishes, the.

990
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 1: Girl's bed were stripped, The girl's beds were stripped.

991
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 8: Those sheets in the bed.

992
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 2: That were gone.

993
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 1: Mel's disclosure about the sheets was extremely interesting for me

994
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: at that time. Police did not take a statement from

995
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: Melanie Taylor when she was twelve, nor at any time

996
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,959
Speaker 1: in the subsequent thirty one years, and perhaps that's why

997
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: there is no mention in any of the hundreds of

998
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: pages of evidence around funding Broman's case of the beds

999
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: in the girl's rooms having been stripped of sheets. Maddie

1000
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 1: Walsh and I agreed in May after we met Melanie

1001
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 1: that when we spoke to members of Broman's family, we

1002
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: would not disclose what Kerry McLain had told me back

1003
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 1: in February. The absence of the sheets was potentially deeply suspicious.

1004
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,920
Speaker 1: Three months before we met mel Kerry McLain had told

1005
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: me what she recalled that her friend Jude had told her.

1006
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 3: Well, I think she thought that Bronwin was deceased in

1007
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 3: the back seat wrapped in a sheet.

1008
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 1: But in May we were yet to find Judy Singh,

1009
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 1: the purported first hand witness to something wrapped in a

1010
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 1: sheet in the Winfield family car on the night Bromwin disappeared.

1011
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 1: Maddie and I did try to confirm something while talking

1012
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 1: to Andy and Michelle Reid, Broman's brother and sister in law, respectively,

1013
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 1: on May thirty one, I asked Andy and Michelle some

1014
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: specific further questions about the afternoon of John's unexpected arrival

1015
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: at their home in the Shire south of Sydney on

1016
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: the afternoon of Monday, May seventeen, nineteen ninety three. Do

1017
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:18,520
Speaker 1: you recall seeing any sheets?

1018
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 5: No, No, there was nothing in the boot.

1019
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 1: Michelle. I just want to ask you to think about

1020
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 1: the next question and just really search your memory. Andy's

1021
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: referred to there being some pillowcases, and Mady asked you

1022
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,960
Speaker 1: what color they were. Do you recall the pillowcases?

1023
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 10: I do.

1024
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 2: They were light I'll agree with Andrew. They weren't navy

1025
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 2: or brown.

1026
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 11: They were just light colored pillowcases, just ordinary pillowcases.

1027
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 1: Do you recall seeing any sheets in the car?

1028
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 11: No. I was surprised because there was no thing really

1029
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,440
Speaker 11: in it, no other betting. Now, it was just like

1030
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 11: it was like the pillow case was used as the suitcase.

1031
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 1: Ye for the kids while his children were staying at

1032
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 1: your house. Did he bring sheets or betting for them?

1033
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 2: No?

1034
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 1: Nothing. Minutes after the completion of that call, Maddie and

1035
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 1: I recorded a separate chat. She was in her bedroom

1036
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 1: in Sydney and I was driving my car to the

1037
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 1: Brisbane Writers Festival for talk about true crime and podcasting.

1038
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 1: We debriefed on parts of the conversation that we just

1039
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: had with Andy and Michelle.

1040
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 12: What struck me as particularly interesting was that we know

1041
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 12: that beds were stripped, as mel told us, where the sheets?

1042
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 1: It took the sheets and they were with my car.

1043
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 5: No, So where else could they possibly be.

1044
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 1: They have said that there were just kids things in

1045
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 1: the why she missed? She yes, kids, she wouldn't say

1046
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 1: anything about she.

1047
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 5: It's not like he chucked them in the wash.

1048
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 1: And he didn't go into the red house with bedding

1049
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 1: apart from the pillowcases. If he even took those.

1050
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 2: Here, Yeah, and where are they?

1051
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:19,520
Speaker 1: Where are they?

1052
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 6: Well exactly and at that age, I'm sure the girls

1053
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 6: would have had single beds, which makes sense for there

1054
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 6: to be two pillowcases, both the same color.

1055
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 5: So I am leaning.

1056
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 6: Towards the idea that she was wrapped in the kid's sheets.

1057
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 6: Who was that lady that recalled the car driving bike?

1058
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 5: But that was in the back seat.

1059
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 1: At that stage, we had still not found Jude. She

1060
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 1: had not found us, and Maddie and I were skeptical

1061
01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: about a purported sighting of something that looked like a

1062
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 1: body wrapped in a seat in the car. We were

1063
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 1: skeptical because we could not get our heads around how

1064
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 1: in the dark at nighttime a witness would see something

1065
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 1: in an unlit car. But we didn't know back then

1066
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 1: what Jude would tell me when she reached out just

1067
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 1: days later, that the interior light of the car was

1068
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: on and that as a result, Jude had a clear

1069
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 1: and haunting view inside the car. Let's go back to Thursday,

1070
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 1: June thirteen. I'm with Jude at her daughter's house near Tweed, heeads.

1071
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 1: I asked Jude about her visit to the Ballona Police

1072
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:42,040
Speaker 1: station in nineteen ninety three to report what she had seen.

1073
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 1: Do you think that when you described what you saw

1074
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 1: there was any room for misunderstanding at that time what

1075
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 1: I saw in the car? Yeah, like when you were

1076
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 1: telling them in the Ballona police station what you've told us,

1077
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 1: presumably what you've told us. Is it possible that somehow

1078
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 1: what you conveyed wasn't properly understood by them.

1079
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 2: Well, I can only tell them what I'm telling you,

1080
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 2: and that's all I had to say on it. I

1081
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 2: wasn't in there for that long.

1082
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 1: It hasn't changed.

1083
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 2: No, the story doesn't change. Why would it.

1084
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:25,680
Speaker 1: It's just extratly.

1085
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 2: I've told people along the way. My son, my daughter

1086
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 2: Trey knows about it, caring you about it.

1087
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 1: And if the police do want to take a proper

1088
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: statement from you this time, yep, that's okay. When I

1089
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:47,440
Speaker 1: drove away from Dude's daughter's house after Sean and a photographer,

1090
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: Russell Shakespeare had got everything they needed. A decision was

1091
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 1: due in about half an hour. In the case of

1092
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 1: Lynn Simms, her husband who murdered her in nineteen eighty two,

1093
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 1: Chris Dawson had lodged in a and his lawyers had

1094
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: put up a determined legal case to try to reverse

1095
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 1: the conviction and free him from prison. Israe An came

1096
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 1: for SBS World News.

1097
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 13: In the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal, a

1098
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 13: bid to overturn a high profile murder conviction. Lawyers for

1099
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:24,680
Speaker 13: Chris Dawson, who is now seventy five, arguing there was

1100
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 13: a miscourage of justice at his trial in twenty twenty two.

1101
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:32,720
Speaker 1: But I couldn't bear to watch the media's live streamlink

1102
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: as the decision of three judges was handed down. It

1103
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 1: was too unnerving. Instead, I pulled into a nearby MacDonald's

1104
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: and worked on episode six of Bromman to ensure it

1105
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,720
Speaker 1: could be released later in the day. Dave Murray sent

1106
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 1: me a text just after two pm. It said, simply

1107
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:57,280
Speaker 1: appeal dismissed. On the Australians podcast The Front, Claire Harvey

1108
01:08:57,320 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 1: had more to say.

1109
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,839
Speaker 9: The judge swept into the room and took their seats

1110
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:05,559
Speaker 9: for what turned out to be a lightning quick sitting

1111
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 9: of the Court of Criminal Appeal, New South Wales's highest court.

1112
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 9: The judges accepted Chris Dawson could appeal to The court,

1113
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 9: heard the appeal and rejected it. His conviction for Lynn's

1114
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 9: murder stands. The judges published reasons made it crystal clear.

1115
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 9: First Justice Anthony Payne, I.

1116
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 1: Have no doubt about the applicant skilt.

1117
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:30,320
Speaker 3: Justice Julie Ward.

1118
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,880
Speaker 9: The circumstantial case against the applicant was compelling and there

1119
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 9: is no reasonable doubt as to the applicants skilt.

1120
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:39,800
Speaker 2: Justice Christine Adamson.

1121
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:42,840
Speaker 9: None of the arguments advanced on behalf of the applicant

1122
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 9: causes me to doubt the applicants guilt of murdered. Greg

1123
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:51,520
Speaker 9: and Marilyn had liked and trusted Chris, Lynn's handsome, football

1124
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:56,880
Speaker 9: playing teacher husband. They were deeply confused and upset when

1125
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 9: he told Lynn's family in nineteen eighty two that Lynn

1126
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:01,519
Speaker 9: had gone away from for a break and that Lynn

1127
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:03,599
Speaker 9: had told him not to worry about her.

1128
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:09,479
Speaker 1: Here's Lynn's brother, Greg Simms and his very supportive wife Marilyn.

1129
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,040
Speaker 1: We've been in touch for many years leading up to

1130
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 1: the teacher's past, and for the six years since that

1131
01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:21,200
Speaker 1: podcast launched, we've become close friends through many ups and downs.

1132
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 14: Well waiting for the judges to come out, they're verdict

1133
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 14: if you want to call it that, very tense and

1134
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:33,400
Speaker 14: it's the longest minute I've had in my life waiting

1135
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:38,479
Speaker 14: and listeningly. We are extremely happy and the law has

1136
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:40,439
Speaker 14: done the right thing in our minds.

1137
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 9: And what do you hope Chris Dawson does now?

1138
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:46,719
Speaker 14: I hope he sits back in his cell and enjoy

1139
01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 14: us the next twenty years.

1140
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 5: We're very grateful that justice has been done as far

1141
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:53,759
Speaker 5: as were concerned twice over.

1142
01:10:53,720 --> 01:11:01,759
Speaker 2: Now right, and yes.

1143
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:11,240
Speaker 1: We must be thinking what has come on? Over a

1144
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 1: Saturday and Sunday in mid June, Dave Murray, Claire Harvey

1145
01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:18,679
Speaker 1: and I tried to locate someone with a nineteen eighty

1146
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:23,160
Speaker 1: seven Ford Falcon XF sa'dan someone who wouldn't mind it

1147
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 1: being featured in a true crime podcast and in accompanying videos.

1148
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 1: The car needed to have automatic transmission, but we were

1149
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 1: not going to be fussy about the color. John and

1150
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 1: Bromwyn Winfield's Ford Falcon XF SADAN of that vintage was white. Finally,

1151
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 1: Dave found a blue one in the city of Ipswich,

1152
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:49,680
Speaker 1: about a thirty minute drive from my house closer to Brisbane.

1153
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:54,320
Speaker 1: Bianca Farmachus from the Sydney office of The Australian flew

1154
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:58,160
Speaker 1: to Brisbane on Monday morning. Bianca is the voice of

1155
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 1: Bromwan in this podcast series.

1156
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:03,679
Speaker 3: When we moved to Lennox Head, I was even more lonely.

1157
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:06,839
Speaker 2: The house that was Bill became John's castle.

1158
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 1: In my prison, Bianca reads Bromwyn's letters and notes the

1159
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:17,960
Speaker 1: ones Bromwin wrote back in nineteen ninety three. And Bianca

1160
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:21,360
Speaker 1: is the same height as Bromwan one hundred and seventy

1161
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:25,599
Speaker 1: three centimeters. She has the same slender build as Bromwin.

1162
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:29,679
Speaker 1: Biancha did not bat an eyelid when she was told

1163
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 1: we would be wrapping her up in a sheet, wrapping

1164
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:36,599
Speaker 1: her to look something like an Egyptian mummy, and then

1165
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,600
Speaker 1: picking her up and putting her in the back of

1166
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 1: an old Ford Falcon along with a surfboard. Sean picked

1167
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:48,519
Speaker 1: bianchor up at Brisbane Airport. Dave and I went separately

1168
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 1: to the Ipswich home of Ash and Kate, the friendly

1169
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 1: Ford Falcon owners. We told Ash and Kate that we

1170
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 1: needed their car for a couple of hours, and they

1171
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 1: were only too happy to help. Thanks, guys, you've been

1172
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 1: watching us recreating some things here.

1173
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:10,439
Speaker 2: Today we're going right into the true crime sort of

1174
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:13,559
Speaker 2: stuff and all the unsolved stuff, and that's cool seeing

1175
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 2: it first.

1176
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:16,599
Speaker 1: And Will were very grateful to you and your wife

1177
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:22,240
Speaker 1: for letting us use your car. Problem, So, how are

1178
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:23,280
Speaker 1: you feeling about doing this?

1179
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 15: Perplexed, a little off put? It is definitely a confronting

1180
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 15: kind of thing to recreate. Us being able to do

1181
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 15: it will prove a bigger point and paint a broader

1182
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 15: picture of something we haven't seen yet.

1183
01:13:38,479 --> 01:13:41,439
Speaker 1: Dave's just helping take the plates off for Forward Fathton

1184
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:44,720
Speaker 1: because we don't want the personalized plates to show up.

1185
01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:49,120
Speaker 1: You weren't even born in nine eighty seven when this

1186
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 1: car was made, were you not at all?

1187
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 2: No, about ten years before my prime.

1188
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:01,120
Speaker 1: We got Sean's six foot long surfboard in very easily,

1189
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:04,479
Speaker 1: and we placed it the way Jude had described it.

1190
01:14:05,439 --> 01:14:11,000
Speaker 1: There's plenty of room in here, nose first, with fins

1191
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:19,840
Speaker 1: towards the back door. And yeah, once again, that's got

1192
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 1: it very easily.

1193
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:24,320
Speaker 16: So you could potentially fit in a board up to

1194
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:27,519
Speaker 16: close to seven foot.

1195
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:30,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you could even go longer because you could turn

1196
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 1: it over and put the nose on the dash and

1197
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:34,280
Speaker 1: the back of it on the back bench.

1198
01:14:37,080 --> 01:14:40,519
Speaker 16: Looks like there's plenty of room there to put the

1199
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:44,040
Speaker 16: board in over the top and have somebody stretched out across.

1200
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:49,400
Speaker 1: The back and the board actually in that position, it

1201
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:53,439
Speaker 1: gives a bit of cover for someone looking in from

1202
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:57,960
Speaker 1: the other direction. The next bit was the most challenging.

1203
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:02,280
Speaker 1: Three middle aged white nails needed to literally wrap the

1204
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:05,639
Speaker 1: anchor up in a sheet and then pick her up

1205
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 1: and place her in the back of the car. We

1206
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:12,040
Speaker 1: needed then to cover her head, and we needed to

1207
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 1: see if she would fit with the surfboard in the

1208
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:20,240
Speaker 1: way Jude had described it. I wanted to wrap your

1209
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 1: head as well, but I worried about your breathing. We'll

1210
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 1: put it in low case over your feet. How do

1211
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:31,599
Speaker 1: you think it pill that case for her head? Look?

1212
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 1: Probably it's not really read plays, is it?

1213
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:37,760
Speaker 3: Why do you like and roll me?

1214
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:39,040
Speaker 2: Right?

1215
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:40,360
Speaker 1: Okay?

1216
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 14: Do you.

1217
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:46,840
Speaker 1: Actually sean? Would you be able to help Dave At

1218
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:53,800
Speaker 1: the torso end? You went straight in like a club.

1219
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,840
Speaker 1: It's like she's seated, but with the legs stretched out

1220
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:04,719
Speaker 1: through towards the seat belt holders of the front seat.

1221
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 1: Definitely works and you're not even pushed up. Can you

1222
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:12,719
Speaker 1: describe how you are sitting.

1223
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:16,839
Speaker 15: I'm in the left hand backseat, feed up on the console.

1224
01:16:17,560 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 15: I'm sitting like you would sit on a long drive

1225
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:20,280
Speaker 15: down the coast.

1226
01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:25,360
Speaker 1: You're wrapped in this bedsheet from home that now is

1227
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:27,280
Speaker 1: covered into the grass because we had to roll you

1228
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:32,760
Speaker 1: in it. I think what we're not properly representing. Here's

1229
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:36,879
Speaker 1: the head. We could just do a try for a second.

1230
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:41,360
Speaker 1: It's going to we should photograph it with the doors closed.

1231
01:16:44,479 --> 01:16:47,439
Speaker 1: It's going to shut these doors. Are you still okay?

1232
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1233
01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:56,400
Speaker 1: Sean is great with the technology and Dizmo's. He flew

1234
01:16:56,439 --> 01:17:00,200
Speaker 1: the drone to film down into the car.

1235
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:04,519
Speaker 16: I'm just panning around the car with the drone so

1236
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:09,759
Speaker 16: you could get several different angles. You can see quite

1237
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:14,080
Speaker 16: clearly into the cabin from this height, which we're trying

1238
01:17:14,120 --> 01:17:18,240
Speaker 16: to replicate the angle of Jude's deck down onto the street.

1239
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:22,840
Speaker 16: We're covering these different angles shows us probably the car

1240
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:25,320
Speaker 16: as it came into view all the way around to you,

1241
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:28,160
Speaker 16: as it faded out of you going down the street.

1242
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 1: You could be EVAs. It's important because Jude describes sitting

1243
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:36,679
Speaker 1: on the deck upstairs, you know, a little balcony and

1244
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:40,720
Speaker 1: a lamp that was on, and she's looking down and

1245
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:44,960
Speaker 1: she said previously, during daylight hours she could see into

1246
01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 1: pretty much a big car that went past. And her

1247
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:49,840
Speaker 1: friend Carrie told me that when she would sit up there,

1248
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:56,040
Speaker 1: she also saw into cars. And at night you wouldn't

1249
01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:58,479
Speaker 1: usually be to sce into the car, but the interior

1250
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:03,720
Speaker 1: light is on. As described by Jude, this exercise is

1251
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:08,840
Speaker 1: really just to see if we can fit a six

1252
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:12,439
Speaker 1: foot plus surfboard into the car, to see if we

1253
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 1: can fit a woman in the same height and very

1254
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:19,479
Speaker 1: similar build to Bromo in the car at the same time.

1255
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:24,719
Speaker 1: That's Bianca. We've done that, We've reproduced both those things.

1256
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:29,559
Speaker 1: She says she saw a vehicle, John's vehicle and John

1257
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:33,680
Speaker 1: driving that, and what she describes as a money that

1258
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:38,800
Speaker 1: looked like a wrapped body in the backseat. The exercise

1259
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:42,920
Speaker 1: went smoothly, and it was eerie seeing the shape of

1260
01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:46,400
Speaker 1: a body in a car our friend, Bianca wrapped in

1261
01:18:46,439 --> 01:18:49,879
Speaker 1: a light colored sheet and positions similarly to how Jude

1262
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:53,800
Speaker 1: was sure she had seen it. After Sean and Dave

1263
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:57,000
Speaker 1: had finished taking photographs in film. It was time to

1264
01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:01,040
Speaker 1: rescue the brilliant bianchor. We're going to free you from

1265
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:03,519
Speaker 1: the pillowcase. I think we can get you out of

1266
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:08,559
Speaker 1: the back seat now and unwrap you from the sheet

1267
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:12,240
Speaker 1: that I'll need to give a good wash when I

1268
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,679
Speaker 1: get home. Thank you, it's okay.

1269
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:18,280
Speaker 3: How are you feeling a very intense experience.

1270
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 15: I was expecting this to take hours, you know, of repositioning,

1271
01:19:23,040 --> 01:19:27,200
Speaker 15: of moving around, but it just slotted right in.

1272
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're fit in easily and there's plenty of space.

1273
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:37,720
Speaker 1: The surfboards over your lower courser, your legs, you're wrapped up.

1274
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:41,240
Speaker 1: I mean, we've done as much as we can to

1275
01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:43,439
Speaker 1: try to reproduce what Jude has described to me.

1276
01:19:44,320 --> 01:20:00,600
Speaker 15: One swift motion and I was here.

1277
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:05,400
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1278
01:20:05,439 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1279
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:14,240
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1280
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:20,719
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1281
01:20:21,479 --> 01:20:24,360
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1282
01:20:24,479 --> 01:20:28,879
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn

1283
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1284
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:40,320
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for bronwin includes Claire Harvey,

1285
01:20:40,439 --> 01:20:46,400
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1286
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:52,320
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio

1287
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 1: production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio, and

1288
01:20:56,560 --> 01:21:01,120
Speaker 1: original theme music by Slade Gibson have been assisted by

1289
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 1: Madison Walsh, a relation of Roman Winfield. We can only

1290
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:08,000
Speaker 1: do this kind of journalism with the support of our

1291
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:12,880
Speaker 1: subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman. For all

1292
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:17,840
Speaker 1: of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents about

1293
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:21,720
Speaker 1: this podcast and other podcasts, including The Teacher's Pet, The

1294
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:26,600
Speaker 1: Teacher's Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy and

1295
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:30,519
Speaker 1: The Night Driver. Go to the Australian dot com dot

1296
01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:37,439
Speaker 1: au and subscribe,