WEBVTT - Why Erin Patterson’s lies ‘point to innocence’

0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.080
<v Speaker 1>From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:16.079
<v Speaker 1>It's Thursday, June nineteen, twenty twenty five. Ecstasy on prescription.

0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.919
<v Speaker 1>That's the promise from a major health insurer funding access

0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.840
<v Speaker 1>to a psychotherapy program for post traumatic stress disorder that

0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:28.280
<v Speaker 1>includes the use of the psychedelic MDMA. That story is

0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.040
<v Speaker 1>live now at the Australian dot com dot a U.

0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:40.320
<v Speaker 1>Aaron Patterson told lies, but that doesn't make her a killer.

0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.600
<v Speaker 1>That's the core of her defense barrister's argument in the

0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:47.240
<v Speaker 1>Victorian Supreme Court, where Patterson, a fifty year old mother

0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.960
<v Speaker 1>of two, has pleaded not guilty to murdering three elderly

0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:55.240
<v Speaker 1>relatives and attempting to murder a fourth. Today the lies

0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:59.040
<v Speaker 1>of Aaron Patterson and why the defense says they point

0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:09.640
<v Speaker 1>to her innocentes. Aaron Patterson told lies in the aftermath

0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.600
<v Speaker 1>of a family lunch that left three dead and another

0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:17.200
<v Speaker 1>gravely ill. She lied about owning a dehydrator. She lied

0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:20.640
<v Speaker 1>about foraging for mushrooms. She failed to tell the truth

0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.520
<v Speaker 1>about her plans for the future. But the barrister representing

0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.800
<v Speaker 1>her at trial in the Victorian Supreme Court says those

0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.840
<v Speaker 1>lies and omissions point not to guilt, but to her innocence.

0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.520
<v Speaker 2>The lies in the days afterwards, everything she does in

0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.720
<v Speaker 2>the days afterwards doesn't change what her intention was at

0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.440
<v Speaker 2>the time of serving the meal. And a person, you

0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:47.960
<v Speaker 2>might think, who accidentally made four people very unwell with

0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.080
<v Speaker 2>all of the consequences of that, including the custody of

0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.040
<v Speaker 2>her children on the line, that person has a motive

0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:55.280
<v Speaker 2>to tell a lot of lies.

0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Those are the words of Colin Mandy sc read for

0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.040
<v Speaker 1>you by a voice actor. Mandy said, despite her lies,

0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Patterson is a person of good character with a strong

0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.040
<v Speaker 1>relationship with her in laws.

0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:11.799
<v Speaker 2>She was close with the Patterson family and had been

0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.800
<v Speaker 2>from the very earliest days of her relationship with Simon.

0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.400
<v Speaker 2>Evidence is she always had a good relationship with Gail

0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.960
<v Speaker 2>and Don, a close relationship. They treated her like a daughter.

0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:25.920
<v Speaker 1>The barrister pointed to the evidence of Simon Patterson and

0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.400
<v Speaker 1>his brother Matthew, who both said their parents were active

0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.960
<v Speaker 1>in their lives of Aaron Patterson's two kids, and he

0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.760
<v Speaker 1>said Aaron and Simon were on good terms despite several

0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:41.080
<v Speaker 1>years of separation until December of twenty twenty two, when

0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:43.919
<v Speaker 1>there was some tension about child support. Payments.

0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.360
<v Speaker 2>Just pause and think about that, seven years since the

0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.800
<v Speaker 2>official separation, dealing with two children in a respectful way.

0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.880
<v Speaker 2>And if there were the occasional disagreements that you might

0:02:55.919 --> 0:03:00.400
<v Speaker 2>have seen some evidence of, they were resolved really smoothly.

0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:04.160
<v Speaker 1>Mandy said. Any negative text messages Aaron sent about the

0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.200
<v Speaker 1>Pattersons to the friends she'd made online were a natural

0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:08.760
<v Speaker 1>expression of frustration.

0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.080
<v Speaker 2>She didn't mean those things. She regrets the language that

0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:17.000
<v Speaker 2>she used now that the whole world scrutinizing them. She

0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.280
<v Speaker 2>is ashamed of what she had written. She may well

0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.280
<v Speaker 2>have regretted it two minutes after she'd sent it. And

0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.440
<v Speaker 2>we suggest to you that these messages are a distraction

0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.840
<v Speaker 2>from the real evidence in the case, the evidence that

0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:31.639
<v Speaker 2>is relevant to these charges.

0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.840
<v Speaker 1>In the days after the launch, when police and the

0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.440
<v Speaker 1>Victorian Department of Health were investigating what had made the

0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.520
<v Speaker 1>Pattersons and the Wilkinsons so sick, Aaron Patterson told police

0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.800
<v Speaker 1>they could find the leftovers in the bin outside her house.

0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:51.600
<v Speaker 1>She gave them the pin code to the gate so

0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:52.360
<v Speaker 1>they could get in.

0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.240
<v Speaker 2>Why tell people the leftovers existed at all? Why put

0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:00.400
<v Speaker 2>the pastry and the mushrooms minus the meat into bin?

0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.560
<v Speaker 2>As a deliberate ruse to somehow divert attention from the activities,

0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.760
<v Speaker 2>and then having to tell the police where they were

0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.560
<v Speaker 2>because she knew they contained death cap mushrooms.

0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:16.560
<v Speaker 1>The barrister also questioned evidence given by survivor Ian Wilkinson.

0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.600
<v Speaker 1>He said the four lunch guests had been served on

0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:24.080
<v Speaker 1>gray plates, while Patterson ate off a smaller, red colored plate.

0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.279
<v Speaker 1>Mandy said it was more plausible that Aaron had used

0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:30.040
<v Speaker 1>a combination of colored plates from different sets.

0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.880
<v Speaker 2>There's no evidence of gray plates. No one says that,

0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.960
<v Speaker 2>apart from Ian, it would make perfect sense for the

0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.599
<v Speaker 2>guests to take the two sets of matching plates for

0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.520
<v Speaker 2>themselves to the table, especially when it wouldn't make any

0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.960
<v Speaker 2>sense to use a different colored plate to identify the

0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:50.640
<v Speaker 2>unpoisoned parcel when you can make it much clearer and

0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:54.000
<v Speaker 2>easier by making a mark on the pastry itself.

0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.920
<v Speaker 1>The prosecution alleged Aaron Patterson used posts made on Our

0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:03.320
<v Speaker 1>Naturalist to locate death caps growing near her home, but

0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:07.120
<v Speaker 1>Mandy said computer records showed Patterson visited the relevant pages

0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:09.960
<v Speaker 1>for less than a minute, so this was.

0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Not a person carefully studying this information doing research about it.

0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.080
<v Speaker 2>This was not a deep and abiding interest in this

0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:21.040
<v Speaker 2>subject matter. It was passing attention in exactly the same

0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:23.520
<v Speaker 2>way as many of us would do on our own devices.

0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:52.200
<v Speaker 1>Coming up, What about the motive the Crown hasn't suggested

0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.440
<v Speaker 1>to the jury a motive for Aaron Patterson's alleged murder

0:05:55.480 --> 0:06:00.360
<v Speaker 1>and attempted murder. Prosecutor Nanette Rodgers did draw the jury's attention, however,

0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:04.880
<v Speaker 1>to Patterson's distance from her husband Simon's family and her

0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.280
<v Speaker 1>attempt to draw Don and Gail Patterson into her disagreement

0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:13.239
<v Speaker 1>with their son about child support. Colin Mandy, acting for Patterson, says,

0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.600
<v Speaker 1>not only is there no motive to kill her children's

0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.960
<v Speaker 1>grandparents and great aunt and uncle, but in fact Aaron

0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.200
<v Speaker 1>Patterson had a motivation to keep them alive.

0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.720
<v Speaker 2>Our submission is there was no venom in their relationship

0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.360
<v Speaker 2>and no difficulty in the relationship between Aaron and Don

0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.560
<v Speaker 2>and Gail, and if there had been, there were plenty

0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:35.960
<v Speaker 2>of witnesses who got called in this case by the

0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.960
<v Speaker 2>prosecution who could have been asked to comment on it.

0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.200
<v Speaker 1>The Crown's case is that Patterson invented a cancer diagnosis

0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.080
<v Speaker 1>to lure the relatives to a lunch when her real

0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:50.400
<v Speaker 1>motivation was to poison them. The prosecution rubbished Patterson's claim

0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.920
<v Speaker 1>that she didn't have cancer, but she was expecting surgery

0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.840
<v Speaker 1>for a gastric bypass or libersuction. She said she was

0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.359
<v Speaker 1>embarrassed to admit the real reason at the life lunch,

0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.440
<v Speaker 1>where she was asking for their support in managing the

0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:05.040
<v Speaker 1>kids while she was out of action.

0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:11.640
<v Speaker 2>She had a problem with binge eating. She was feeling embarrassed, guilty, depressed.

0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.239
<v Speaker 1>The jury heard evidence that the clinic she'd booked into,

0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.560
<v Speaker 1>the Enrich Dermatology Clinic, didn't offer gastric bypass, although it

0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:22.120
<v Speaker 1>did at the time offer liposuction.

0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.120
<v Speaker 2>Her understanding at the time she booked it was that

0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.280
<v Speaker 2>they offered the full range of weight loss treatment options,

0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:34.160
<v Speaker 2>including liposuction, gastric bypass, and other surgery. She was mistaken,

0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:35.560
<v Speaker 2>honestly mistaken.

0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.520
<v Speaker 1>Patterson told Gail Patterson before the lunch that she had

0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.040
<v Speaker 1>a lump on her elbow, and she told the jury

0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:46.280
<v Speaker 1>that in the past she'd had unfounded worries about cancers,

0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.720
<v Speaker 1>including of the ovaries and the brain.

0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:52.480
<v Speaker 2>It was not so much the lump on her elbow

0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.040
<v Speaker 2>that was important, but the attention the love, the kindness

0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.440
<v Speaker 2>that she was getting from her support network. Aron often

0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.600
<v Speaker 2>thought she had issues with her health that ended up

0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:05.320
<v Speaker 2>going nowhere that were never confirmed or diagnosed. That's not

0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:08.800
<v Speaker 2>made up. That's not a lie. It's there for everyone

0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.720
<v Speaker 2>to see in her medical records and the conversations that

0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:15.400
<v Speaker 2>she had with other people, including Simon. She didn't have

0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.680
<v Speaker 2>anyone else in the world. That's not a lie. That's

0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.240
<v Speaker 2>the truth. She still had a great relationship with Don

0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.240
<v Speaker 2>and Gaale, that's the truth. And Simon might have been

0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:29.040
<v Speaker 2>isolating her a bit from the wider Patterson family. Also

0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.360
<v Speaker 2>probably true, and at the very least true that she

0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:36.320
<v Speaker 2>felt that way about it. Now, with the benefit of hindsight,

0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.840
<v Speaker 2>with the prosecution and a murder trial, criticizing your every misstep,

0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.760
<v Speaker 2>your every lapse in judgment, your every mistake, focusing on

0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:48.000
<v Speaker 2>every silly thing you did, the mean things you said

0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:52.800
<v Speaker 2>in text messages, this seems terrible. It's terrible lies exposed

0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:56.200
<v Speaker 2>for the whole world. But if you put yourselves back

0:08:56.280 --> 0:09:00.080
<v Speaker 2>there where Erin was in June of twenty twenty three,

0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.920
<v Speaker 2>and if you look at it, we say with objectivity,

0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:07.479
<v Speaker 2>not with the benefit of hindsight, it might be more understandable.

0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:11.240
<v Speaker 2>She's not on trial for lying. This is not a

0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:15.600
<v Speaker 2>court of moral judgment. You can't, you shouldn't take the

0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:18.120
<v Speaker 2>leap from this lie about a lump on her elbow

0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.400
<v Speaker 2>to finding her guilty of triple murder.

0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.200
<v Speaker 1>The trial continues and you can follow our coverage live

0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.520
<v Speaker 1>at the Australian dot com dot au