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Speaker 1: My Boris and this is straight talk. Well, you know

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Speaker 1: Australians loved this company, Well they did love this company,

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Speaker 1: Joe Aston. Well, straight talk mate.

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Speaker 2: Ok, thanks for having me, and I'm glad I got

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Speaker 2: the memo on the Morris uniform. But the pants fade, Well,

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Speaker 2: you're shooting from the waste up. Correct, No one can

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Speaker 2: see that you're George Orwell said. This is one of

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Speaker 2: my favorite quotes. Journalism is publishing something that someone doesn't

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Speaker 2: want to be published, and anything else is public relations.

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Speaker 2: This book is about how Quantus influences all politicians because

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Speaker 2: this has been going on for forty years. Quantus managed

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Speaker 2: to rip two point seven billion dollars of subsidies out

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Speaker 2: of the Morrison government. After that they convinced the Morrison

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Speaker 2: government not to say Virgin Australia with the financial lifeline.

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Speaker 2: They're the biggest recipient of Job Keeper and then they

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Speaker 2: are legally sacked people. Their power is immense no matter

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Speaker 2: who is in government, because I think it's important established

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Speaker 2: Joe Eston.

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Speaker 1: So I hope you don't mind me asking those sort

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Speaker 1: of questions.

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Speaker 2: That just got worse and worse.

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Speaker 1: And well, straight talk mate, Mark.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, and I'm glad I got the

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Speaker 2: memo on the Morris uniform, but the pants made I

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Speaker 2: got you're shooting from the waiste.

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Speaker 1: Up correct, no one can see that you're actually and

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Speaker 1: then making congratulations on your book has been like a

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Speaker 1: I think it's a huge success. I mean, what does

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Speaker 1: a huge success mean for you in relations to this book?

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Speaker 2: Well, look, for me, a huge success would be if

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Speaker 2: the public finally understood exactly what Quantus had done to

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Speaker 2: the country, you know, to its customers, to its loyal customers,

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Speaker 2: and you know it's a national carrier. Of course, if

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Speaker 2: that sunk in, if everyone understood exactly how big and

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Speaker 2: intentional and how much of it. Yeah, if that, if

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Speaker 2: that became clear to the public, I'd be very happy.

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Speaker 2: That's sort of what I'm trying to do.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you're talking about today today we'll call the

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Speaker 1: Chairman's Lounge, which I'll have to admit I'm a member

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Speaker 1: of it, but I'm also I'm also in a verge

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Speaker 1: of VRP one too, and you're also not a politician

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Speaker 1: for politician and this, but I think what's in we

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Speaker 1: will talk and park it a little bit of money,

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Speaker 1: but we will talk a little bit about the alb

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Speaker 1: and easy partner all this, but like that's to me,

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Speaker 1: that's what I've been done to death. This is what

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Speaker 1: you have underneath the heading is it says the inside

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Speaker 1: story of how Quantus sold us out. And we've got

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Speaker 1: lots of and there's lots of well known people like

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Speaker 1: Adel Ferguson's et cetera and Kate McClement who have read

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Speaker 1: the book I must have read before publishing, have given

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Speaker 1: a big rap Quantus sold us out, Conus being a

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Speaker 1: national carrier, Contus being a monopoly in Australia, you know,

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Speaker 1: virgins sort of sort of competent but not really mooly

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Speaker 1: effective monopoly. What was the objective? Mate? You know you've

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Speaker 1: taken yourself. You were retired effectively from the AFR where

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Speaker 1: you ran many many years and talk about a bit

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Speaker 1: later the rear window. And you're great at the In fact,

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Speaker 1: I think you're the best ever to write in that area.

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Speaker 1: Took a couple of years off, got married to a

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Speaker 1: couple of kids, I had a kid, wrote this book

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Speaker 1: What's the Deal?

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Speaker 2: So I didn't really plan to do I really didn't

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Speaker 2: plan to do it.

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Speaker 1: So it didn't stop working, to stop wing to write

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Speaker 1: the book.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, when the publishers came to me with

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Speaker 2: a book deal around the time that I was pulling

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Speaker 2: the pin at the AFL last October, I just straight

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Speaker 2: away said absolutely no way. I didn't leave to do

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Speaker 2: exactly what I've been doing for the previous twelve months,

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Speaker 2: which is writing about Alan Joyce and Quantus. But you know,

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Speaker 2: after a few weeks off, some people aren't very good

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Speaker 2: at doing nothing. And you know, although I had every

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Speaker 2: intention of resting and oh and obuse he's had a

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Speaker 2: nice little break, but very quickly I was like, I

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Speaker 2: need something, and it felt hard to be. What I

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Speaker 2: then saw, I suppose is Quantus trying to just you know,

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Speaker 2: PR wash the whole thing. Alan Joyce had gone, Vanessa

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Speaker 2: Hudson had taken over. They just sort of tried to

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Speaker 2: make out like nothing had happened. And I thought, this

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Speaker 2: all needs to be put in one place so the

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Speaker 2: public can not be hoodwinked into thinking that this was

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Speaker 2: all just a bit of an accident, a couple of

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Speaker 2: small mistakes and a bit of a bit of a

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Speaker 2: bit of a PR storm that wasn't really based on

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Speaker 2: anything I wanted. I thought, no, this has to all

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Speaker 2: be done properly, because it's not like, you know, Quantus

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Speaker 2: didn't burn its loyalty, it didn't burn its reputation overnight.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't a couple of decisions in the last six

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Speaker 2: months before Alan Joyce left. This is something that started

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Speaker 2: to happen even before COVID and that's not been properly understood.

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Speaker 2: So that was sort of my motivation, and I was

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Speaker 2: just so happy that I had nothing else.

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Speaker 1: To do well unfortunately for Quantus. But I guess I

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Speaker 1: know I've known you when you're a Rewindow and you

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Speaker 1: know you're an investigative journalist, but you also have a

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Speaker 1: certain style of writing, which you would obviously be aware of.

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Speaker 1: You have a style of writing that probably made rewindo

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons most people bought the Aha. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you're not You don't have to say yes or no.

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Speaker 1: But I know a lot of people only buy it

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Speaker 1: because today, especially or back then, back when you're writing,

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Speaker 1: is because they wanted to either make sure they weren't

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Speaker 1: being written about it, or terms they want to see

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Speaker 1: who you were writing about and if in any way

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Speaker 1: they had any shoe or form, any reputational risk, And

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Speaker 1: effectively you're an investigative journalist. The way I look at it,

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Speaker 1: you investigate issues or people and you start writing about it.

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Speaker 1: Where does that drive come from?

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Speaker 2: That?

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Speaker 1: That process, the thinking process? I mean, what's behind that? Joe? Like,

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Speaker 1: why do you like to do this? What is it?

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Speaker 1: Do you look at something that's unfair or you think

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Speaker 1: it's an issue needs to be raised, or someone's getting

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Speaker 1: away with something and it needs to be put out there?

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Speaker 1: What's the deal?

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Speaker 2: It's a really good question. It evolved like I didn't

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Speaker 2: get into journalism to sort of like being mister truth seeker.

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Speaker 2: That was not I didn't have some sort of self

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Speaker 2: righteous subjective. I got into journalism mainly because it looked

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Speaker 2: like so much fun. You know, it looked like accurately,

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Speaker 2: it looked like what you got to do is go

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Speaker 2: out to lunch with people you know and get them

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Speaker 2: to tell you things that they shouldn't tell you, and

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Speaker 2: then write them. And you know, I've enjoyed making mischief

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Speaker 2: and that suited me. But you know, over time, you

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Speaker 2: would get bored, as anyone does in their career if

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Speaker 2: they just keep doing the same thing, Like if you

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Speaker 2: work for a big company, you might move around into

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Speaker 2: different roles but I just was stuck on the one column.

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Speaker 2: But I was thankfully given the creative freedom to go

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Speaker 2: from sort of writing a column which was just like

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Speaker 2: have a laugh at this person or being a bit

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Speaker 2: of a hypocrite, to in a light way, or even

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Speaker 2: just gossip about who was out with who and who's

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Speaker 2: talking to who. But I was able to, you know,

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Speaker 2: I was given the freedom to change that and to

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Speaker 2: become more of a commentator and more of an investigative commentator.

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Speaker 2: It was quite an unusual format. It's hard when like

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Speaker 2: if I talk to journals who are mates in New

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Speaker 2: York or in London, and they sort of you try

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Speaker 2: and explain what real window is. It's quite hard because

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Speaker 2: there's nothing.

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Speaker 1: There's no other president, nothing well, there's not really anything

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Speaker 1: overseas that you could absolutely directly compare it to because

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Speaker 1: it's sort of it's sort of gossip, but increasingly it's commentary,

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Speaker 1: but it's also news, and it's also satire, you know,

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Speaker 1: or comedy, you know, so satires. In the writing the

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Speaker 1: writing style, you're quite brilliant. I mean optoty before, but

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Speaker 1: you're quite brilliant in the way you're writing style. It's

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Speaker 1: very readable, but it's fun too. Like sat this sort

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Speaker 1: of bit has to have a bit of fun associated

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Speaker 1: with it.

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Speaker 2: It's also quite an Australian thing to laugh at people

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Speaker 2: who take themselves too seriously. You know, people who get

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Speaker 2: laughed at, they don't like it. They call it the

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Speaker 2: tall poppy syndrome. But actually what it's doing is just

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Speaker 2: you know, holding a mirror up to people who are

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Speaker 2: being pretentious or obnoxious or whatnot. And there's a little

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Speaker 2: bit of it in Britain, but definitely in the US

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Speaker 2: journalism they do not get it because they take themselves

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Speaker 2: very seriously, the journalists, not just the people they're writing about.

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Speaker 1: So do you think you're the rear window style when

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Speaker 1: you're writing It was a fairly unique proposition relative to who,

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Speaker 1: you know what other journalistic newspapers around the world, especially

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Speaker 1: at the AFI level on a national level. Something that's

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Speaker 1: so much impact is that what you would say that

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Speaker 1: was unique. It got to that point where I think

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Speaker 1: it was unique. And the reason that is is like,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just have a laugh. It was have a laugh,

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Speaker 1: but underneath these laughs, look at the serious thing that's here,

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Speaker 1: Look at all the data that's in there, Look at

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Speaker 1: all the evidence and the research that's done, and that's

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Speaker 1: what a lot of big businesses. Business people couldn't fight off.

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Speaker 1: They couldn't laugh it off because you know, sure it.

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Speaker 2: Was sure as humor, but behind it was really serious issues.

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Speaker 2: And that's how I campaigned on big companies like Rio

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Speaker 2: Tinto and Magellan and Alex Malley at the CPA and

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Speaker 2: remembers him. And then of course there was PwC last year,

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Speaker 2: which I was part of a team that was working

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Speaker 2: on that. And then finally Quantus, and I think Quantus

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Speaker 2: thought they could just laugh it off. It's it's just

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Speaker 2: red window, it's just gossip, and that's what a lot

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Speaker 2: of people try to do. But increasingly the columns had

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Speaker 2: were pointing out with a lot of data stuff that

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Speaker 2: was inconsistent about their behavior, particularly towards customers and staff.

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Speaker 2: And they found that they that was an error that

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Speaker 2: they thought they could just brush it away, try and

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Speaker 2: shut it down, laugh it off. It was it stuck

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Speaker 2: to them.

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Speaker 1: So it's interest us. You say data, Joe, because what

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Speaker 1: I think what you mean by data is you mean evidence. Yeah, proper,

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Speaker 1: proper evidence. And a mutual front of ours told me

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Speaker 1: once that many years ago when you were writing earlier

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Speaker 1: that this guy referring to you is very good again

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Speaker 1: these facts? How do how does someone like you get

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Speaker 1: your facts? I mean, like, what's the process? How do

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Speaker 1: you build? And like, let's say you've got to write

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Speaker 1: a let's take this back to read window days and

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Speaker 1: let's say you know, there's an expectation you've got to

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Speaker 1: write a column every.

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Speaker 2: Day five or six days a week five But you

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Speaker 2: know I had quite a few days off in between.

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Speaker 2: Don't worry. By the end I was not doing many

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Speaker 2: weeks where it was five.

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Speaker 1: But in the early days, Yeah, so you're got to

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Speaker 1: get you've got to yarn out and you shared it.

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Speaker 1: There was just just you, but there was a shared

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Speaker 1: and another there's another journalist in that territory, and you've

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Speaker 1: got to get a yarn out every day. That's like

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Speaker 1: it would seem to me you've got to have at

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Speaker 1: least five you might have to have ten or twenty

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Speaker 1: topics going at once.

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Speaker 2: What would you Yeah, because of course when you when

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Speaker 2: you see it come out, that doesn't not I might

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Speaker 2: have been working on that for three or four Days're

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Speaker 2: sort of juggling all these balls because when will you

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Speaker 2: be able to prove that one versus that one, and

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Speaker 2: they're all bubbling away. It's like trying to cook, like

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Speaker 2: a do a dinner party, a chess count once it's correct.

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Speaker 1: So what's the process? Like, Like, I mean, where do

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Speaker 1: you get your ideas from.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the time, you've got to be talking

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Speaker 2: to people all the time, and it's on the phone,

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Speaker 2: and you've got to be face to face with people

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Speaker 2: because people you got to build trust with people, and

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Speaker 2: you know, people need you to prove that you can

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Speaker 2: be trusted. You've got to have a track record of

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Speaker 2: protecting people that you're just do with information, Yes, exactly

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Speaker 2: the source, But I increasingly over time I moved more

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Speaker 2: into like, let's get documents, let's look at financial documents,

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Speaker 2: and let's let's look at what people say, look at

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Speaker 2: transcripts of what things have been said versus now what

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Speaker 2: they're doing, and look for the discrepancies between those things,

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Speaker 2: because of course, relying on what someone says to you

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Speaker 2: and what multiple people say to you versus what someone

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Speaker 2: else says disagrees, and it all relies on human accounts

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Speaker 2: of things.

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Speaker 1: Also agendas and opinions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's always hard, right because you know, people

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Speaker 2: are always calling you up saying guess what I'll tell you,

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Speaker 2: and they tell your abs and you always have to think,

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Speaker 2: what is this person's motivation? Are they acting because they're

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Speaker 2: outraged that something something bad is happening here, or are

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Speaker 2: they just trying to settle a score with someone that's

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Speaker 2: happening all the time. And by the way, just because

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Speaker 2: someone's trying to settle a score doesn't mean that the

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Speaker 2: information they're giving you is wrong, so you might still

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Speaker 2: use it. But you've got to really be twigged to

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Speaker 2: people's real motivations.

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Speaker 1: But how did you develop that skill? And what I

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Speaker 1: mean by that is did you study something or did

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Speaker 1: you just study someone else? Or did you have a

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Speaker 1: mental sort of sitting there ago to just check this

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Speaker 1: this sort of accounts out. Do you have other resources

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Speaker 1: to your availability to say, well, can someone give me

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Speaker 1: the lowdown on these set of numbers?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I mean, the great thing about being in

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Speaker 2: the AFI newsroom you've got some great, some really terrific

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Speaker 2: reporters and subject matter experts analys Yeah, and guys who've

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Speaker 2: been there, Guys and girls who've been there for a

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Speaker 2: long time. They can read accounts. They know the industries

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Speaker 2: that they write about. And then you also get to

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Speaker 2: know lots of shareholders of companies and they really are

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Speaker 2: riding the weeds of things. Again, you've got to figure

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Speaker 2: out their motivations. Are they shortening the stock or are

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Speaker 2: they long the stock? And therefore they're motivated, you know,

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Speaker 2: to only tell one side of the story. It's everyone's

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Speaker 2: you're always watching, but just being in that spot and

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Speaker 2: as sort of became more high profile, you get access

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Speaker 2: to the best people and they you know, the great

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Speaker 2: thing about that job is you pick up the phone

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Speaker 2: to like top top people and they answer and they're

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Speaker 2: happy to talk to you mostly Yeah, and unless they're

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Speaker 2: the subject matter, yeah, well even still a lot of

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Speaker 2: the time they will. But that's the quality access to

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Speaker 2: two experts that obviously that allows you to just supercharge

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Speaker 2: your learning curve.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do you actually limit the more powerful you get

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Speaker 1: or not the powerful probably not the right word. The

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Speaker 1: more the more content that you've created and the more

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Speaker 1: feathers you've ruffled, does that then start to create a

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Speaker 1: bit of a chasm for you in that people going

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Speaker 1: to say, oh, I'm not going to talk to him,

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Speaker 1: because if I talk to him, I could be included

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Speaker 1: in this story. Do you get people start to be

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Speaker 1: scared of you or give you.

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Speaker 2: That birth Yeah, I think that definitely happens. It's a

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Speaker 2: hard job if you do it properly. And I've sort

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Speaker 2: of said before you can't be a good journalist if

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Speaker 2: you need to be popular or if you want to

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Speaker 2: be popular. And that's hard because we all, I think

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Speaker 2: naturally are wired to want to be popular. Yeah, we

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Speaker 2: want to be like yeah and no one sort of

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Speaker 2: some people do, but not many people are wired to

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Speaker 2: enjoy conflict. But ultimately, your job is to publish. George

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Speaker 2: Orwell said this is one of my favorite quotes. Journalism

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Speaker 2: is publishing something that someone doesn't want to be published,

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Speaker 2: and anything else is public relations. And so ultimately, if

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Speaker 2: you're doing journalism properly, you're writing something that the person

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Speaker 2: you're writing it about doesn't want out there, and so

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Speaker 2: you're doing something that they don't want. And so I

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Speaker 2: really struggled with this in the early years, because.

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Speaker 1: You talk about pre Rewindow.

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Speaker 2: Or during the early years of writing Rear Window, you know,

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Speaker 2: I really struggled with sort of I was quite afraid

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Speaker 2: to answer the phone to someone that was angry I

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Speaker 2: was quite afraid to call someone up and say, I

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Speaker 2: have this negative information about you, what do you say

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Speaker 2: about it? And that led me to make mistakes.

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Speaker 1: Are you timid? Naturally timid?

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Speaker 2: At that point, I think I had a lot of

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Speaker 2: false bravado, which means well, it means that I was

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Speaker 2: pretending not to be timid. But I was very conflict avoidant,

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Speaker 2: which is not unnatural. It was really quite overwhelming at times,

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Speaker 2: but I got better at that, and if you lean

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Speaker 2: into it, it gets better before.

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Speaker 1: What makes you better at it then, so practicing.

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Speaker 2: It, you know, instead of hiding under the doner, you

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Speaker 2: just make yourself pick up the phone and have the

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Speaker 2: hard conversation and look into someone's eyes and say, this

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Speaker 2: is not personal. This is about the issue. This is

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Speaker 2: not about the personality. Did this happen or did it

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Speaker 2: not happen? This is what I think about this. Tell

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Speaker 2: me what you think. Even if you disagree with me,

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Speaker 2: tell me what you think, and I can still go

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Speaker 2: away and say, no, I still think what I think.

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Speaker 2: I disagree with your perspective. I'm still going to write

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Speaker 2: it the way I was going to. But that process

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Speaker 2: is important and really unnatural on a human level. Because

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Speaker 2: you know, you walk around and you've said said lots

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Speaker 2: of negative things about people, and people understandably hate you,

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Speaker 2: and how do you not let that eat away at you?

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Speaker 2: You just have to be really certain that you being

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Speaker 2: fair and that you you know that your position is

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Speaker 2: strong from where you're standing, and then you just have

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Speaker 2: to let that for the rest of that go.

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Speaker 1: Do you have to pick a higher order? In other words,

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Speaker 1: sort of say, look, I'm doing this for a it's

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Speaker 1: important that people know about this truth or these these facts,

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Speaker 1: this content is data that that is important. Well the

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Speaker 1: people read my column or is it more Australians whatever.

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Speaker 1: You might have a different view on that, but tell

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Speaker 1: me that I like that answer that who is it?

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Speaker 1: Who is it that you're trying to take down the

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Speaker 1: road to the truth. And when it comes to that

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Speaker 1: as well, you have to take a view that it's

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Speaker 1: so important that I don't care whether I upset the

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Speaker 1: individual I'm unning.

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Speaker 2: About exactly exactly, that's exactly what you have to do.

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Speaker 2: And like there's a good bit in my book where

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Speaker 2: Greg Hywood, who used to be the CEO of Fairfax,

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Speaker 2: he was talking to Alan Joyce. Because Alan Joyce obviously

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Speaker 2: went to war last year with the AFR and pulled

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Speaker 2: the AFI at a LAM member. Yeah. But the thing

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Speaker 2: people have probably forgotten is that ten years before that

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Speaker 2: he did the same thing to the Citny Morning Herald

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Speaker 2: in the Age and he pulled all those papers out

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Speaker 2: of the airports and canceled the advertising of quantas in

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Speaker 2: those newspapers because adel Ferguson had written that he should

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Speaker 2: resign because he just delivered a record loss. And Greg

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Speaker 2: high would called him. This is in the book, Greg

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Speaker 2: I would called him when he found out that Alan

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Speaker 2: was pulling the advertising, and he said, you know, do

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Speaker 2: you realize that like this journalism that we reproduce is

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Speaker 2: what keeps society functioning. And you know by pulling advertising

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Speaker 2: like this, you're threatening. What you're doing is you're threatening

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Speaker 2: the free press, which is how we keep this country together.

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Speaker 2: And when you think about it, it all sounds so high

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Speaker 2: and mighty. And I understand if people out there are

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Speaker 2: rolling their eyes going, oh you think that you know

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Speaker 2: what you do is so holier than now, because I

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Speaker 2: would roll my eyes too. And we also all tell

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Speaker 2: ourselves these stories about ourselves to make ourselves feel better

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Speaker 2: about what we do. You know, so what I do

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Speaker 2: is so important for the public, and so you know,

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Speaker 2: I put my hand up there. But if you do

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Speaker 2: think about it without journalism like Adele Ferguson's or Headley

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Speaker 2: Thomas's or Kate mcclemon's or many others Neil Channelworth like you,

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Speaker 2: powerful people do not stop and pause before they do

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Speaker 2: something that they shouldn't do. You know, that's it's the

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Speaker 2: existence of people like them who cause powerful people to

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Speaker 2: go I won't steal, I won't lie, I won't cheat

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Speaker 2: because I might get caught. And if there was no

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Speaker 2: press holding them to account, there'd be all sorts of

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Speaker 2: I mean, society would break down. So it is an

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Speaker 2: important thing. Like so you've got to do it?

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Speaker 1: Do you have to remind yourself of that? Because if

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Speaker 1: you're just written a story about somebody and then on

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Speaker 1: the phone they're blowing up and their wife rings you,

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Speaker 1: and the p our agency rings you, and every other

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Speaker 1: person rings you did it any stage when you go home,

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Speaker 1: you think, oh my god, what a crappy night. This

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Speaker 1: was a pre marriage because you know, when you're married,

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Speaker 1: you have a partner, it's probably a bit easy. You

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Speaker 1: can sort of feel a bit more comfortab your home,

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Speaker 1: in your family. But let's say you go on home

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Speaker 1: on your own or hanging out with whoever you're living

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Speaker 1: with the time, do you ever get to the point

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Speaker 1: where the fuck like this is this is this is

402
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Speaker 1: so hectic? Yeah, just out of me. Oh.

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Speaker 2: Countless times I've said what am I doing this?

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Speaker 1: What?

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Speaker 2: What is? Countless times I've said, like, there's got to

406
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Speaker 2: be an easier way to make a buck. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: I let me assure you there is. And so it

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Speaker 2: is sort of a toil of love. You wouldn't be

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Speaker 2: a journalist if you didn't love love it, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: if you didn't love doing it, you don't certainly don't

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Speaker 2: do it for other reasons because the pressure is high.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, in the end, that's why I decided to

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Speaker 2: leave the AFR. I mean, there were a few different reasons,

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Speaker 2: but one of the big reasons was I just got

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Speaker 2: to the point where I was like, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of just accumulated hostility. You walk into a room and

417
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Speaker 2: everyone just wants to kill me, and you just think,

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Speaker 2: might just I might just need a bit of a break.

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Speaker 2: I might you know, I might just need acquie a

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Speaker 2: life for a bit. Unfortunately, this book didn't this book, Yeah, exactly,

421
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Speaker 2: tell me about it.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that probably results from prior to

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Speaker 1: this book, that results from the position you're in, is

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Speaker 1: that you will make powerful enemies and powerful friends. And

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Speaker 1: I know that you have powerful friends. How do you

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Speaker 1: manage the old no fear and no favor sort of

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Speaker 1: position in relation to that? How do you in your

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Speaker 1: own mind? How do you reconcile that? Do you just say, well,

429
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Speaker 1: if something comes your way that you probably feel like,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to have to write about this, good

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Speaker 1: by as human hure, I would be that person you

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Speaker 1: might do you hand it over somebody else? What do

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Speaker 1: you do?

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Speaker 2: Like? That's yeah, that's that's hard. And you know you

435
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 2: can be the subject of criticism about this, so well,

436
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:52,959
Speaker 2: why an't you writing about this? Why you didn't say

437
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 2: anything about that person? And you thought of sort of think, well,

438
00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 2: that doesn't necessarily mean that it's some sort of dirty

439
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,679
Speaker 2: favor or something like that, but you're.

440
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 1: Allowed to make the choice signed you as a journalist.

441
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 2: Well, I don't I think so, But I would also understand. Look,

442
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,680
Speaker 2: I just don't want to be a hypocrite, right and say,

443
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 2: how do you criticize me I'm open to criticism on that.

444
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 2: Like you do. You're still a human being. You still

445
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,919
Speaker 2: make friends, and the thing about being a journalist is

446
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,439
Speaker 2: you then develop sources, and at some point sometimes you

447
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 2: get to a point where you've gone over that line

448
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 2: where you're just in way too deep with someone. You

449
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 2: have access to all of their personal life and secrets,

450
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,919
Speaker 2: and they trust you and they confide in you, and

451
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 2: you sort of go, I'm beyond a journalists a journalist

452
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,880
Speaker 2: with this person now, and you just have to give

453
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 2: it a wide birth professionally and.

454
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,400
Speaker 1: Give that personal why birth professionally.

455
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,879
Speaker 2: Well, that's what I have done, and I think there's

456
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 2: people who do it differently and they continue to write

457
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 2: about that person but only positively. And I have not

458
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 2: done that or tried very hard not to do that,

459
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 2: So you sort of but you still don't. You still

460
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 2: get a bit of a hard time from people because

461
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: you don't write it about the moment. What are you

462
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 2: meant to do?

463
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 1: Just attack them as hard as you can and you're

464
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 1: not allowed to have any personal relationships. But I get

465
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: the criticism. You know, like people are always looking for

466
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: you to be inconsistent, and it is an inconsistency to say,

467
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 1: you know, to hit this person, that person, that person,

468
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,640
Speaker 1: but not that person and that person. But it's sort

469
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: of a been unfair to expect a person, someone like

470
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 1: yourself or anybody to come home and come home on

471
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: a front of yours like you've got to live them

472
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: You've got to your journalist world, but you've got to

473
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 1: live a life too, And all of a sudden, you've

474
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 1: got your friends. You're not going to go around telling

475
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: everybody what happened at the barbecue exactly, like why would you?

476
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,159
Speaker 1: And by the way, I don't think any journalists would do.

477
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: You think there's an expectation there by consumers of your stuff, readers.

478
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 1: The expectation is that if you're going to be that

479
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 1: person on one occasion, you're going to be that person

480
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: on all occasions. You're going to be consistently at it.

481
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I think there probably are some

482
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 2: readers who had unreasonable expectations about that, And I think

483
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 2: then there would be other readers who understand that it's

484
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 2: a human it's a human being, you know, at the

485
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 2: at the tiller doing this, and so they're going to

486
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 2: have some human needs and human weaknesses and human preferences.

487
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: And like, not only do you need to have friends

488
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 2: in the world, you also need to have sources, and

489
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 2: that that is also a transaction in some ways where

490
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 2: you go, well, is this a source relationship or is

491
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 2: this a potential subject? And it's all a bit of

492
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: a gray area.

493
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: To be carevil. I'm burn it because it might be correct.

494
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: But is it hypocritical not to burn it. Is it

495
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 2: more important to burn this person because they've done the

496
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 2: wrong thing than it is to maintain them as a

497
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 2: source of information? That's a really hard transaction internally, which

498
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 2: which you know I've grappled with many times.

499
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 1: Did you ever get into the position where because clearly

500
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: you're playing the man not the ball here, like.

501
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 2: That's your job in the case, I mean, I would

502
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 2: contest that. Okay, I don't know.

503
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure I've made mistakes where I have played the man,

504
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: but when I'm playing I think I'm playing the ball

505
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 1: and the person with the ball for what they're doing

506
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 1: with the ball, you know, like I'm not right again.

507
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: I can imagine someone's going to say, what about that time?

508
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: And you know you've made I've made mistakes, but usually

509
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: ninety nine times out of one hundred it's this person.

510
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: I'm not attacking that person because they're fat or thin,

511
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 1: or they're they're you know, Asian or Jewish or you know,

512
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: like it's the idea is it's what they're doing in

513
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: their job and what they're doing with shareholder funds or

514
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,439
Speaker 1: what they're doing in public office. So you know, okay,

515
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: I put humor on top of that and have a

516
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 1: laugh about it, and you know that. People then say, oh, well,

517
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: then you're playing the man. But I don't know that

518
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: that's accurate. Do you think people should get I mean,

519
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 1: if it's just a one off story or with two

520
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 1: off stories, as opposed to was The Champan's Lounge, which

521
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: was a whole book, and by the way, that was

522
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 1: that's just the book the comminator at the end of

523
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: a process, because you'd already been going at Cornus for

524
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: quite a while, as probably correctly you know, as you

525
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: have done in the past with other entities of other groups.

526
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: Do you think that most people who read your column

527
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 1: when they're written about for example, I've been written about

528
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: your column. I don't know if it was about by you,

529
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: but by others. Do you think they shouldn't they should

530
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: if it's just once or twice this dude, get over it.

531
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: Don't worry about it. Like it's what do you think

532
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: about that? What do you think people should say? Well,

533
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: the subject should say, who cares? What do you want

534
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: to do?

535
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: Well? I mean I want them to look at the issue.

536
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 2: You know, if you criticize someone.

537
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: But it's just say as a fun thing, a bit

538
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: of a oh.

539
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, then you hope that they laugh it off and

540
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 2: it's all just a bit of light entertainment. But if

541
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 2: someone is ripping off their customers, or they're saying one

542
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 2: thing and doing another, they're being a hypocrite, then I

543
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:50,959
Speaker 2: would hope that what they do is look at their

544
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: behavior and think about the criticism that's being made. But

545
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 2: it's also hard to do that because when people are

546
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 2: under attack, they switch quite often from rational to emotion.

547
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 2: Cortersol jumps in yeah, and that's very hard to think straight.

548
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 2: And so you sort of have to give people that

549
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 2: that sort of what's the word I'm going for?

550
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: Would I jo Asi could not think of a bloody word.

551
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 2: You sort of have to give people that.

552
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: Leeway's words I've ever met. I don't believe. I can't

553
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: believe the word. Eventually if you're writing it to be written,

554
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: or you're timing it a big twenty words out.

555
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: Why I like writing because I can sit there and

556
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 2: you know, craft the perfect sentence, and everyone thinks I'm

557
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 2: so great with English language. But then when you get

558
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 2: me in front of my microphone, you realize I'm just

559
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: to crack a little camera, spressing myself.

560
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: So so and just on that. Your style of writing, Look,

561
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: I don't really remember you when you first kicked it off,

562
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: but iert remember towards the end. Your style of writing

563
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: was very fluid, easy to read, very easy to read.

564
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: It was it was entertainment. Did you Is this something

565
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: that you you worked on to become good at or

566
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: was that something you've always been? Were you like at

567
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 1: UNI doing this sort of.

568
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 2: Stuff or at school? You're right in the end, I

569
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 2: was a speech writer professionally. Before I write, I worked

570
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: as a journalist and your speech right for so James Hogan,

571
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: the SEO of Etty had Airways, the airline that I

572
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,959
Speaker 2: worked for. After I worked for Quantas and before I

573
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: started at the APA, and I read a lot. So

574
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: I spent my twenties buried in novels. Not so much nonfiction,

575
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: but I just loved literature, and I actually dreamed that

576
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 2: I could be a novelist. Unfortunately that was a pipe dream.

577
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 2: But that is a really good basis, and if you

578
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 2: continue to read, I really love other people's great writing,

579
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: and I'm always underlining phrases and just thinking about how

580
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 2: other people render the English language. But the other part

581
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,239
Speaker 2: of it is you just get good at something you

582
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 2: do every day. You know, it's nothing. It's absolutely no

583
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: different to going and benching four times a week in

584
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 2: the gym. Progressive overload as sitting at your desk writing

585
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 2: eight hundred words a day for the public for public consumption.

586
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: Do that for twelve years, and you'll have a big

587
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 2: chest and you have a great writing style.

588
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: But Joe, you'll be very modest, because as long as

589
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: my butt points to the ground, i could be pressing

590
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: every day for the next ten years and I'll never

591
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: lift one hundred and forty kilos. And you know that

592
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: your style of writing is sort of one hundred and

593
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: forty killo territory. And so there's got to be a

594
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 1: talent in there as well. As I love it, you

595
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: must love it. I must be lucky to have some

596
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: natural talent. That's I'll probably admit that, yeah, yeah, because

597
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: there's some guys down the gym made, you know, and

598
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 1: they and I could start on the same day, do

599
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,239
Speaker 1: the same weights for the next ten years, and they

600
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: definitely would be lifting more than me in the period

601
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: down the track And do you run? Do you feel

602
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: as though, sometimes though, in terms of language and style

603
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: of writing, that the satire that you attached to these things.

604
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: Do you ever think like I didn't get too hard

605
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: on a person in a ridiculous like, I hope that don't.

606
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: It was a feel ridiculed because when you're writing a book,

607
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: it's more facts. You've got a lot more time. Totally,

608
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: when you're writing a column, you've got to make it

609
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: piffy and blah blah.

610
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: I agree with that, and that's part of the frustration

611
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 2: I'm just grappling with is that people understandably are pulling

612
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: out little sections of the book now and really like

613
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: obsessing about them. And that's all fine, but you sort

614
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: of think if you really look at the whole thing,

615
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: there's a lot more going on and a lot more

616
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of research and a lot of context,

617
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 2: and definitely in a column you can't get anything you

618
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: can't get everything in. It can be to dense either, No,

619
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: because you want people to just enjoy it. So look, well,

620
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: when your original question was do you worry that someone

621
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: will feel ridiculed? It depends if they've done something ridiculous.

622
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: And in many cases when I was writing about someone,

623
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: they had done something ridiculous. And people should be laughed

624
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 2: at if they do something ridiculous, especially with shareholder money

625
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: or public money. So but yeah, look there are times

626
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 2: where you go, I'll tell you what changed. At the beginning,

627
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: I was trying to make a splash. I was young,

628
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: I was immature, you know, I was writing about stuff

629
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: that was just a bit yeah, it was.

630
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: It was a bit infantile, like I was, you know,

631
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: making jokes about mummy bloggers and you know, getting involved

632
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: in cultural crap around you know, whether Julia Gillard was

633
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: you know, was being treated unfairly as a woman or

634
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: wasn't being and treated unfairly. And I just looked back

635
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: and go that that was not the most important thing

636
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: that was going on in Australia, but it was. It was.

637
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: It was that was just my level of competence at

638
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 2: the time. I'm embarrassed a but I think as it developed,

639
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: I was able to ensure and again there were exceptions, unfortunately,

640
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 2: but I was able to focus on, you know, trying

641
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: to punch up, you know, always make sure that if

642
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: I was going after someone that was someone who was

643
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: more powerful than I was.

644
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: And I got.

645
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 2: Better at that. Not perfect, but I got better at

646
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: that as I went along.

647
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: You've got to get onto the book because I think

648
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: it's important established Joe Aston. So I hope you don't

649
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: mind me asking those sort of questions because I saw

650
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: your interviewed on seven thirty Report this week and I

651
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: felt like, you know, I'm not having a go with

652
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: Sarah Ferguson, but I just felt as though, given the

653
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: times she had to interview you, I felt aso it

654
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: was given that I know you, I thought it was

655
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: an unfair discussion. I just and I actually felt like

656
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: you were quite guarded in that.

657
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: Mate, if you sit down with Sarah Ferguson totally, She's

658
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: a tremendous interviewer.

659
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: And doesn't work homework, and I get it, and I

660
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: just didn't think that was a good expression of Joe

661
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: of yourself. One of the things I do want to

662
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: talk to you about, just quickly is that in the

663
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: process of meeting lots of people, you have got lots

664
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: of lunches. The danger of that is that you become

665
00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: a lush ye drinking eating, blah blah blah. I know

666
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: you're five years sober. I think years five and a

667
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: half years sober. Just take us through that, and what's

668
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: that process like.

669
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: Well, our mutual friend David Ginjol was the first person

670
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 2: who said to me in twenty thirteen, which is about

671
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: six years before I actually stopped drinking, that I needed

672
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: to do something about my drinking.

673
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: He was a boss Channel mine.

674
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: Then it was yeah, yeah, exactly before the merger with

675
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: I was still doing stuff. We had the fin Review,

676
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: had a TV show and Channel nine at that point.

677
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that.

678
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: So, yeah, look, I actually sort of got into journalism.

679
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: Now now that I can be honest with myself and

680
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: I have enough distance between it and I can now

681
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: see that I got into journalism because it appealed to

682
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: me that it was a job where I could start

683
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: drinking in the daytime. You know, before that, I'd been

684
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: in office jobs and you had to at least stay

685
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: sober during the day. And then I was like, oh,

686
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: you could just go out and get people drunk at lunchtime,

687
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: and it was so it's unsurprising that I fell into

688
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 2: that profession. And yeah, it just got worse and worse.

689
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: But was that a process that was so in other words,

690
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: did you do that to sort of soften yourself relative

691
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: to the person you're having lunch with by maybe having

692
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: a couple of gin and tonics earlier straight up? Or

693
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: was that to get them off guard? Was that to

694
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: get them into the mode?

695
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is it was both. But usually what

696
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: happens when you become addicted to something is that you

697
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: make excuses for yourself, you know, so you say, I'm

698
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: doing this so that I can get the other person

699
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: a bit loose, But really you're lying to yourself. What

700
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: you're doing is you're just drinking because you're addicted to alcohol. Yeah,

701
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,719
Speaker 2: and you're doing it to cope with all the pressure

702
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: that you know, you're not dealing with in a healthy way.

703
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: So that just got worse and worse, and eventually I

704
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 2: just sort of it got so bad that I had

705
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 2: to stop or howd you do that? I just I'm

706
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 2: sort of lucky I didn't sort of go to rehab

707
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: or anything like that, but I just hit the fence.

708
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: I was sick. I just got really you know, I

709
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: was feeling really unwell all the time, you know, bloated,

710
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 2: was losing my I remember, I was getting to the

711
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: point where I could barely even really write anymore. And

712
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: that really scared me. You know, I was sitting there,

713
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 2: I couldn't remember what words meant, and you know, I

714
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: needed a dictionary to start put together a sentence by

715
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 2: the end, and I just realized that it was going

716
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 2: like this really rapidly. And so it's actually in New

717
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 2: York on a work trip, and I called my editor

718
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: in chief and I said, I'm really sorry, but I

719
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 2: need a break. I just need, I need. I'm about

720
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 2: to disappear and for health reasons, and I don't know

721
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 2: when I'll be back. And I came back to Australia

722
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 2: and went and stayed at a friend's house on the

723
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: Central Coast for a couple of weeks in dried out,

724
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: and then just just got on with my life, trying

725
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: to do it myself and with friends, surrounding myself with

726
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 2: the right people. But work was really amazing, you know,

727
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 2: they were very supportive. That that year, in twenty nineteen,

728
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 2: they gave me a lot of time off and let

729
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 2: me just get better slowly, because that's the only you

730
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 2: don't get better fast, you know, if you do, if

731
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: you thrash yourself the way I was for ten years,

732
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 2: you don't sort of just have a day off drinking

733
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden year back to healthy. It takes,

734
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 2: you know, it takes a long time for your brain

735
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: to recover and for your body to recover. And now

736
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: I just like life's just changed so much, and I

737
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: just feel so lucky because I know lots of other

738
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 2: people who have what I have, who don't make it.

739
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: And you got married during that period or just a

740
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: little bit thereafter. Yeah, later, Yeah, and you're married how

741
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: many years now? Two years? And you've you've got a child?

742
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, six months old?

743
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: Six months old? Congratulations, thank you. I must have to

744
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: said when I first met you, I didn't think that.

745
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: I just never imagined you settling down, so to speak.

746
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 1: But I mean neither. Yeah, you were like pretty young.

747
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: I don't even how old you are, but you still

748
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: look really young. But forty one, well, so then this

749
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: would have been I probably looked about fifty five five

750
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: years ago.

751
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 2: That's the thing.

752
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: You look great at the moment. So let's god and

753
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: so we got onto the book, right, So this week,

754
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: you know the time, we're doing the podcast. But at

755
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 1: the end of the week, it's all been about alban

756
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: Easy and it's all been about did he make a call?

757
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: Did he make a cook? And we just get some

758
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: stuff cleared up straight away before we get into the

759
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 1: rest of the book, the important part of the book.

760
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: He's denied it. He said didn't make a phone call.

761
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 1: Regaci's never really received any favors. I watched Paul Murray

762
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: keep putting up on the Code of Conduct, the Parliamentary

763
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: Code of Conduct, which is you know, Julia Rudd's go

764
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: to conduct, Julie Gillard's co to conductor, Kevin Rudd's cod

765
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: to conduct, and also Albanese co to conduct. Is the

766
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: issue that he shouldn't have accepted free flights? What is it?

767
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 1: What's the issue? What is the issue? Yeah?

768
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: The reason Albanese's upgrades in particular are the focus of

769
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: attention in that section of the book is because it's

770
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 2: sort of context to understand how or sorry, it's context.

771
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: How nobody can understand the Katar decision that happened last year,

772
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 2: where you know, Quantus was in the toilet, worst customer

773
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 2: service ever, highest airfares in living memory, and nobody none

774
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 2: of the airlines were flying enough seats, so there was

775
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 2: really high travel demand, really low supply of seats, and

776
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: Katar puts their hands up and says, we'll fly more.

777
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: We can bring in more flights right now and that

778
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 2: will bring prices down. And by the way, Kata kept

779
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 2: flying to Australia right through COVID when all the other

780
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: airlines had packed up, and it's all on track to

781
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 2: be approved. You know, the Transport Department's in favor of it.

782
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 2: Catherine King verbally who's the Transport minister, verbally says, indicates

783
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 2: to Virgin that she's in favor of it, because of

784
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 2: course Virgin's a partner of Kata. And then all of

785
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 2: a sudden something changes. And so that is that the

786
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 2: relationship between alban Easy and Quantas and Alan Joyce in

787
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 2: particular is fair game and absolutely of high interest. The

788
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 2: thing is, there's lots of questions, like he declared those upgrades,

789
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 2: and in some ways ironically he's being punished for being

790
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 2: transparent about the fact that the upgrades happened. The argument is,

791
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 2: has he been transparent about how they happened. He only now,

792
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: I mean, has taken a lot of days to finally

793
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: now say he didn't seek those upgrades. That's inconsistent with

794
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: what I've written and inconsistent with what I know. But

795
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 2: the fact is he was Transport Minister, so that's the

796
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 2: unique thing. He had unique powers over the airline industry

797
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: and so was that appropriate. I don't think it was.

798
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 2: But having said that, this book is about how Quantus

799
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 2: influences all politicians and both sides of politics, and that's

800
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 2: really the big issue because this has been going on

801
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 2: for forty years. And like rod Eddington says in my book,

802
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 2: he was the CEO of Cathe Pacific in Hong Kong

803
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 2: British Airways when they owned a quarter of Quantus, and

804
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: also Anset. He was chairman of Anset before they went

805
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: down the tubes. And he says, you know, Quantus is

806
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: the best lobbyist in Australia, Barna. He can't think of

807
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: anyone who's ever been better. And he competed with Quantus

808
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 2: for the vast majority of his career. So many people

809
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: except that Quantus has had this really powerful influence over politicians,

810
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 2: Liberal labor, national everyone for a long time. And so

811
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: you know, I'm a bit amused. I mean, it's just

812
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: alb An Easy as Prime Minister today. There's nothing we

813
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 2: can do about that. But I am a bit amused

814
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 2: that that's the only angle that anyone's talking about, because

815
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of it is about how Quantus

816
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: managed to rip two point seven billion dollars of subsidies

817
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: out of the Morrison government. After that they convinced the

818
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: Morrison government not to say Virgin Australia with a financial lifeline.

819
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: So their power is immense no matter who is in

820
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 2: government in Canberra.

821
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: And is this but Jose, is it a corporates sort

822
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: of have a responsibility or they definitely have a responsibility

823
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: the shaholders under the corporation's law. And part of the

824
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: responsibility of the shaholders under the corporations law is to

825
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: make sure that they can always survive they outsurpprivors everybody

826
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 1: else as a business, that they can maximize a profit

827
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: totally in order to pay differdends back to the shoholders.

828
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: And if you're given an opportunity to put yourself in

829
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 1: a position of power or influence, whether it it's under

830
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 1: Richard Gordon's chairman and or you know anybody else previous

831
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: chairman's going right back for the last forty fifty years,

832
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: you would probably do it because it's like a risk

833
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: management process. What is the objection to a corporation, let's

834
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: call it managing politicians the way Quantus is done.

835
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: Well, there is the responsibility to shareholders, but there is

836
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,720
Speaker 2: the politicians responsibility to US citizens to make good policy

837
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: that's good for the country and good for consumers as well.

838
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: And so the problem is when Quantus is saying you

839
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: can have you can all have the chairman's lounge and

840
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,919
Speaker 2: we're going to give you upgrades, or they get asked

841
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: for upgrades by politicians, which they do often, and they

842
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 2: give them to them. And then that what that fosters

843
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 2: is an environment where Quantus is able to make politicians

844
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: create bad policy for us as travelers, and that Catart

845
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: decision is a great example. They Quantus managed to convince

846
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 2: the government to defund the A Triple c's airline monitoring

847
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: powers last year, which was again an unbelievable decision when

848
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 2: prices were sky high. Service was terrible. REX was basically

849
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: in the process of being destroyed and bonds are. So

850
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 2: that's the issue that Quantus is absolutely entitled to and

851
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: should do the best for its shareholders. And no one's

852
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 2: saying Quantus should not make money, but it's the way

853
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 2: they go about it is there.

854
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: But today, on today's standards, do you think there's a

855
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: level of at Quantus, at least from Quantus's point of view,

856
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 1: Quantus obligations that there is a social license for them,

857
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: given we give them a social license to train people,

858
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: give them a social license through the government, given that

859
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: there are sort of effectively their major au the only

860
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: airline here, particularly when it comes overseas trouble domestically, do

861
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: you think they also have a social license on top

862
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 1: of their profit obligations in total, on top of their

863
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: looking after shell obligations that they mustle of the socializnse

864
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: relative to their customer base. Definitely, And because that's a new,

865
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:10,280
Speaker 1: relatively speaking, new concept socialized like banks, is that an issue?

866
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 2: It is new in a corporate sense. However, Quantus has

867
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,359
Speaker 2: been more than just a company for a long time,

868
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: and part of this is a hangover from the fact

869
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: that it used to be owned by the government. It

870
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 2: was only privatized in nineteen ninety five. But it's also

871
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 2: the way they monetize the loyalty of their customers. You know,

872
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 2: they all their advertising is about being the national carrier,

873
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: the spirit of Australia. So they're very happy to use

874
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 2: the sort of social part of their brand to make

875
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: more money and to sell us tickets that are more

876
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 2: expensive than on any other airlines for service that is

877
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: quite often inferior. But then when they're expected to meet

878
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: the responsibilities that come with being the national carrier not

879
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 2: just a profit making corporation, they sort of go, oh,

880
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: just a company, So they can't have it both ways,

881
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 2: and Quantus did try and have it both ways. In COVID,

882
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,919
Speaker 2: you know, they shut down internationally, other airlines kept flying

883
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: to Australia and there were, you know, many many Australians

884
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 2: stuck overseas. They took COVID subsidies, lots of them, not

885
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: more than foreign carriers, like American carriers got more from

886
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 2: the American government. European carriers got equity injections from their governments,

887
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 2: but they got big amount of subsidies, and they took

888
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 2: job Keeper, especially they're the biggest recipient of job Keeper.

889
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 2: And then they illegally sacked people while those people were

890
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 2: on job keeper, and so it's the way they acted.

891
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 2: They also started paying share buybacks, so they started returning

892
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,959
Speaker 2: hundreds of millions of dollars to their shareholders right after

893
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: they just received billions in subsidies. And they were instead

894
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 2: of like, instead of reinvesting in the products so that

895
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 2: the standards were good enough, so they had their priorities

896
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 2: all out of whack. That's not even just social license.

897
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: That's just if you treat your customers so badly that

898
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 2: you destroy your brand, then your shareholders will ultimately suffer.

899
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 2: And even in the book, Quantus's largest shareholder says a

900
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 2: lot of stuff, but one of the things he points

901
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: out is that they were so focused on making this

902
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 2: record profit out of COVID to prove that it was

903
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 2: the turnaround of all turnarounds. But actually, if they just said,

904
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 2: let's make you know, two or three hundred million dollars

905
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 2: less this year, put that back into catering call centers,

906
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 2: you know, putting more frontline staff in the airport terminals,

907
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: you know, all those kind of things that would have

908
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: made things better for customers. The share price wouldn't have

909
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: collapsed as much because they wouldn't have been a public uproar.

910
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: So you can try it. You can actually almost make

911
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 2: too much money if you're too single minded about it.

912
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 2: And that's what Quantus had under Alan Joyce before COVID.

913
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 2: They were at this point where they had this I

914
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 2: call it the holy trinity, which is very original, I know.

915
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 2: But you know, customers, shareholders and staff, and they were

916
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: all in this perfect balance. Quantus was making lots of money.

917
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 2: Staff loved the company and its customers loved the company.

918
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: And COVID After COVID, Alan Joe, it's just allowed that

919
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 2: to fall completely out of whack.

920
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: Do you think it's a single minded brilliance though? But

921
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: the single mindedness wasn't like good, oh.

922
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: Well, it's a big character study and yeah.

923
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: And I'm talking about the character which is all and

924
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: Joyce was, yeah, a single minded brilliance. The single minded

925
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: part of it wasn't right.

926
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: It wasn't. It was became problematic because his single mindedness

927
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 2: was probably a great strength until it was no longer

928
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 2: a strength, you know.

929
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: Become an obsession.

930
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 2: Well look I don't I wouldn't go that far, but

931
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 2: not for you. For him, Yeah, his.

932
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 1: Single mind us to make profit, to profit at all cost.

933
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: It certainly became his overriding priority. And that's also because

934
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: of his incentives because the bigger the profit, the higher

935
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: share price, well theoretically, and his his pay was mostly

936
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: in shairs, so he was his incentives were get the

937
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: share price ramped right, And so it is a really

938
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: interesting character study because it's over I go into you know,

939
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: Alan Joyce turned up Quantus was sort of collapsing financially

940
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: its results when he took over in the GFC. You know,

941
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: he just chipped away, tried to make Quantus more efficient,

942
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: got it into this pretty good position before COVID, But

943
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 1: by the time COVID had hit, he sort of started

944
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 1: to lose his judgment a little bit. And that happens

945
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: to people like again, there's this great man theory of

946
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: history and people go, well, you know, that's all a

947
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: bit made up. But I think Quantus is a great

948
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 1: example of someone who really he was there for so long,

949
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: he came to dominate the organization. His chairman changed in

950
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,439
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, so he went from having this really very

951
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: commanding chairman in Lee Clifford, who'd run Rio tinto and

952
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: really you knew who was boss between those two. Then

953
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: he leaves.

954
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 2: In twenty eighteen, Richard Goider comes in and he's a

955
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: far more deferential, nice man.

956
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: And hands off.

957
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think plus, Alan Joyce was much more

958
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 2: confident by that point. He'd been there for more than

959
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 2: a decade and he was like, no one was questioning

960
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 2: his judgment. But the thing is with power, and this

961
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: is a really an interesting psychological study. Power affects people.

962
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 2: If you're in a powerful social status or professional status

963
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: for a long time, it actually starts to affect you,

964
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: just like a traumatic brain injury, as in judgment. Yeah,

965
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: because you know, like normal people, I probably am not

966
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,479
Speaker 2: very normal, but just say I could consider myself normal.

967
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 2: You know, we're not very important or powerful. We sit

968
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 2: around with each other, we talk, say we're in a meeting.

969
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: We're looking to each other subliminally. This isn't conscious, but

970
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 2: subliminally we're looking to each other to coregulate each other's responses. So,

971
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 2: you know, you laugh when I laugh, and I'll you know,

972
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: grimace when you're grimace, I'll look at my shoes at

973
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 2: the right time. And that's how that's how humans communicate.

974
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 2: But powerful people, over time, they become detached from that

975
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 2: process because they don't have to care what other people think.

976
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 2: Because they're in charge.

977
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: The don't have a part of the community. They form

978
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: the community.

979
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: They just drift away and they are not co regulated

980
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 2: by other people, especially because everyone is inferior to them,

981
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: so nobody would not laugh at their joke. Nobody says

982
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: that's not funny. No one says, boss, you're full of shit.

983
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,720
Speaker 2: People stop saying that to them, so that the longer

984
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: they're in power, it affects them progressively. And you've seen

985
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 2: that in lots of politicians that stay in office too long.

986
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 2: CEO should not be you know, nobody should be CEO

987
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: of a large Australian company for fifteen years. It's too long.

988
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,280
Speaker 2: And I reckon, you know, I don't want a verbal

989
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 2: Alan Joyce, but I reckon he would wish that he

990
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 2: left in twenty nineteen, when he'd been there eleven years,

991
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 2: was right before COVID hit. You know that the share

992
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 2: price was really high. Everyone loved him, he was a

993
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 2: hero over gay marriage, and instead the board offered him

994
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 2: a contract extension and instead of leaving them, he stayed.

995
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 2: And then COVID happened and the rest just got out

996
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 2: of control.

997
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: But whose responsibility is that of the board's responsibility one

998
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: hundred percent the board's responsibility in relation to what the

999
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: CEO is doing, because when you said something interesting, there

1000
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: were a moment ago. When someone's been in the role

1001
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: for a number of years, what they tend to do

1002
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 1: is they actually put people around them and sift out

1003
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: those people who are around them who don't fit into category,

1004
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,760
Speaker 1: who are actually not gonna they're gonna laugh at their jokes,

1005
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: They're not going to sort of especially the business is

1006
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: doing well or making money, and the end will the

1007
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: share prices as they're going to everyone's gonna play the

1008
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 1: game sort of thing. And it seems to me, then

1009
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: what you're talking about here in the book, which you're

1010
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: you're sort of revealing, is maybe regulators need to take

1011
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: a great role in these things. Do you think regulators

1012
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: have a need to sort of say, well, you know,

1013
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 1: maybe there's a tenure period or I think that's making

1014
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: excuses for bad performance of boards, Like maybe the regulators

1015
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: got to talk to the good I think the boards

1016
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: need to do their jobs, and then you don't need

1017
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: regulators to do anything that they're not already doing, you know,

1018
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: like a good board at Quantas would have in twenty

1019
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: nineteen said eleven years is enough, it's time. Instead they

1020
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 1: gave them another contract extension. A good board would have

1021
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: more importantly, you know, you can argue the toss on

1022
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen should have been twenty twenty. And then if

1023
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: it was twenty twenty, COVID happened and he couldn't really

1024
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: change the o's in the middle of a crisis. So

1025
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: you know, you could argue the toss on that. But

1026
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 1: what you can't argue the toss on is when Quantus

1027
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: was running off the rails, you know, they were in

1028
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: a brand crisis. They'd become toxic and because Alan Joyce

1029
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: had been there for so long he had come to

1030
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: inhabit the Quantus brand, people just he become the flying Kangaroo.

1031
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 2: Well he became the devil of you know, he almost

1032
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 2: became the devil incarnate and people hated him so much,

1033
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 2: fairly or unfairly, that's how people felt that and that

1034
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 2: wasn't just that's not not me saying I reckon. That's true.

1035
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 2: That's in the brand consumer research from Roy Morgan, rep Track,

1036
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: all the big research houses were finding this. What you

1037
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 2: can't argue the toss is that at that point the

1038
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 2: board of directors a quantus should have said, Alan, we

1039
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,839
Speaker 2: need to fix some things here now, if not to

1040
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: get rid of him immediately, at least to say all

1041
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,479
Speaker 2: these things need to change. COVID credits not good enough.

1042
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 2: You know, we've got to pay. We've got to settle

1043
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 2: with the bag of chandlers who we sacked illegally. Let's

1044
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 2: pay the money now and apologize, you know, a whole

1045
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 2: bunch of stuff they could have done, but instead that

1046
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 2: was just they kept Alan just kept fighting, which was

1047
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 2: his instinct, over powering instinct was always to fight. He's

1048
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 2: a real street fighter. And the board was just, well,

1049
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 2: Alan Joyce is he knows better than we do. We

1050
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 2: can't second guess him, how do you?

1051
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: That's interesting. So the balance between a board and the

1052
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 1: balance between the personalities on a board and the CEO.

1053
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: Often CEOs, generally, if they're powerful, can select them on

1054
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: board and or work over the chairman, whichairperson. And I'm

1055
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 1: suggesting this happened with Richard Gorder, but generally a really

1056
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: good CEO who's bringing good results. Put aside what happened

1057
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: in post COVID with the sort of demise of the brain,

1058
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: et cetera, and the things that were going on, and

1059
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: they don't want to challenge the CEO. How do you

1060
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: how would you say? I mean, you've you've written the book,

1061
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: and you know you've obviously observed a lot of stuff Midlander,

1062
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,479
Speaker 1: great depth of anybody else in relations to this particular case

1063
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: study quantas, how do how do the shareholders? Then? Is

1064
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: it up there to shareholders to recognize what's going on

1065
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: and then go and say make them change themselves at the

1066
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 1: board level, because yes, the board is responsible for the CEO,

1067
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: the shareholders responsible for the board.

1068
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, they own the company. And then very good point,

1069
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 2: very good point.

1070
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: And then the CEO usually knows the big shareholders. Oh yeah,

1071
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: And it was sort of got to sort of get.

1072
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 2: They're all members of the chairman's lamp as well.

1073
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: So it's a not an unholy alliance, but it's it's

1074
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 1: a circle of a clever process. Because that's what I'm

1075
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: saying about Alan Joyce's single minded brilliance around himself.

1076
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:43,439
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's fair.

1077
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: And he's worked every every aspect of every angle, and

1078
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: he's including governments. It's not just government, shareholders, board senior staff.

1079
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 2: He raised the sort of the capturing of strategically important

1080
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,240
Speaker 2: people to a high art, and that included his board members.

1081
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 2: And definitely I think he was very good at investor

1082
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 2: relations because he was very focused on that issue, and

1083
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 2: they trusted him because he had got quantus from where

1084
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 2: it was. You know, the share price was bumping along

1085
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 2: the ground at a dollar a share for a long time.

1086
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: By twenty nineteen, before COVID, it was seven bucks forty,

1087
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,399
Speaker 2: so he'd, you know, more than you know, some bagger. Yeah,

1088
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 2: it's a seven bagger, I mean, amazing investment.

1089
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: Ridiculous.

1090
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 2: But of course, what anyone should know about the airline

1091
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 2: business is it cyclical. It is the most cyclical business

1092
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 2: of all ciclical businesses.

1093
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,240
Speaker 1: So she tells us about it. It tells us about

1094
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: a new trend before anything else.

1095
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyone knows that if the share price gets to

1096
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 2: seven bucks, then the next place is going to get

1097
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 2: to his three bucks. Like that's what airlines do. And

1098
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 2: now it collapsed to like five bucks last year when

1099
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 2: all of this stuff was blowing up and Allen resigned,

1100
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 2: and guess what, it's back to eight bucks. And everyone's

1101
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 2: thinking it they're really smart, but you know, eight at

1102
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 2: eight bucks. I mean, this isn't investment advice, but at

1103
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 2: quite clearly it's a topy and it's going to fall

1104
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 2: again like it's a bit of a trading stock, so

1105
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 2: lots of people trade in and out because you know

1106
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 2: it's just going to be like a rollercoaster all the time.

1107
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: So have you spoken to Alan Joyce about the book?

1108
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 2: I have not. I tried to approached him. There's a

1109
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 2: statement from him in the book which I thought was

1110
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 2: a bit amusing, where he complains that the book will

1111
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 2: not be balanced or fair towards him. I don't know

1112
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 2: if he's read it and whether he still thinks that

1113
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 2: it wasn't balanced or fair. I tried hard to give

1114
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 2: him credit for what he did well, but what did

1115
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 2: he do well.

1116
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: Well?

1117
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,359
Speaker 2: What he did really well was the hard graft of

1118
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 2: making Quantus more efficient, because you know, today maybe it's

1119
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 2: too efficient. But back in twenty twenty eight, when he

1120
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 2: took over and I worked there, then it was a

1121
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 2: very fat, lazy company. And in fairness to Jeff Dixon,

1122
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 2: who was the predecessor to Alan, it was much less

1123
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 2: fat and lazy than when Jeff took over. But that's

1124
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 2: the sort of thing when you take over a government business,

1125
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 2: it's so fat and hierarchical, and you just got to

1126
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 2: do the slow, hard work of making it more efficient,

1127
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 2: pulling costs out year after year after year. And that

1128
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 2: that's boring, unsexy work that no one's going to give

1129
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 2: you tarraft I give. That's a pain in the ass.

1130
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 2: And he where do you go wrong?

1131
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1132
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 2: I was just going to try and give him credit

1133
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:23,839
Speaker 2: for something else, because he's done a lot of other

1134
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 2: good things. But where did he go wrong?

1135
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,919
Speaker 1: Because what did he do? There's lots of e Yeah

1136
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: he did, but it comes to start.

1137
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 2: One thing he did wrong was he's just the one

1138
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 2: thing that that led to all the other things was

1139
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 2: that he allowed Hubris to take over. And there was

1140
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 2: a moment when COVID hit where Quantus was worried that

1141
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 2: they were in trouble, but very quickly they realized that

1142
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 2: they had a very strong balance sheet and that they

1143
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 2: could survive without any government help. They said publicly, no

1144
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 2: we should, we don't need money. We're fine, and so

1145
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 2: Virgin shouldn't get any money because they calculated that if

1146
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 2: they didn't get any money and Virgin didn't get any money,

1147
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,240
Speaker 2: Virgin would fall over and they and it fell over right,

1148
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 2: So next thing you know, they've got through that they've

1149
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 2: knocked over their competitor, and then they changed their mind

1150
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 2: and say we do want money, but it's easily forgotten that.

1151
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: That's pretty clever though, very.

1152
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 2: I mean exceptionally clever. Yeah, yeah, he was. He was

1153
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:25,760
Speaker 2: a very good strategic thinker. And by June twenty twenty,

1154
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 2: like they had got their costs down. They really big

1155
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 2: achievement to like contract the business into this tiny dormant

1156
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,800
Speaker 2: thing in Mothballs where it was only burning forty million

1157
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 2: dollars a week, and they said they could survive till

1158
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 2: for eighteen months like that without a dollar of revenue

1159
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:44,760
Speaker 2: coming in the door.

1160
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 1: So they they never thought they were going to collapse,

1161
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: even though they later started saying, oh we were almost

1162
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 1: going to collapse, they never thought that would happen, truly.

1163
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 1: But so what Conscious did at that point was they

1164
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: raised more than a billion dollars from shareholders when the

1165
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: share price had been covered. And they didn't say, oh,

1166
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: we need this billion and a bit dollars to survive,

1167
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 1: you know, just as working capital. They said, we need

1168
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: this money to sack ten thousand people and pay a

1169
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: billion dollars in redundancy payments, and that was too many

1170
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 1: people to sack. But what clearly Alan Joyce saw was

1171
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 1: an opportunity. COVID became an opportunity to supercharge Quantus as profits,

1172
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: and he went for gold. He was clearly seeing, we

1173
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: can basically turn Quantus into Jet Star, you know, with

1174
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 1: higher prices. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but you know

1175
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: what I mean, like, really savagely cut the costs and

1176
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: reduce the quality of the customer experience and push the

1177
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: prices and push and keep the prices high, and the

1178
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 1: profit margin will just get fat. And so if you're

1179
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: a fund manager and Alan Joyce is proposing such a

1180
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 1: capital raising, you're going to say that sounds great. And

1181
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: they all did and and surprise, surprise, they did make

1182
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 1: the superprofits when they came straight out of COVID. But

1183
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: what they also did was they felled to pieces operationationally,

1184
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,959
Speaker 1: Because if you sack ten thousand people from a thirty

1185
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: thousand people company, it's one third almost. Yeah, it's like

1186
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: from twenty nine thousand to twenty one thousand, So it's like, yeah,

1187
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 1: you're twenty five six percent or something like that. A

1188
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 1: huge number, and you come back and how do you

1189
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 1: really think you're going to operate properly? You know the

1190
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: wheels are going to fall off because you know so

1191
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 1: far fewer people working in the airport terminals or working

1192
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 1: in the engineering department, and you haven't kept your pilot

1193
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 1: training or your cabin crew training fresh because you wanted

1194
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: to save money. There's so many areas where they were

1195
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: just threadbare. And of course they say, oh, but it

1196
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: was COVID sickness. We couldn't have expected that. And it

1197
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: was supply chain disruption, we couldn't have expected that. And

1198
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: the thing about this story, it's why it needs to

1199
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: be a book instead of an article, is those things

1200
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 1: are partly true, but they use those things as if

1201
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 1: they're wholly true. And so, of course COVID sickness in

1202
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: the staff and supply chain disruption for parts that made

1203
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: an impact and made it worse, but it is not

1204
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: the reason why Quantus's performance in twenty twenty two and

1205
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three was so horrific. And we all remember

1206
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 1: how bad it was. I mean, anyone who tried to

1207
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: travel in twenty twenty two, it was hellish. And that

1208
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: was all because Quantus was being greedy. Someone told me

1209
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 1: that they A pilot actually told me, one of the

1210
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: captains told me that Cornis sent a whole lot of

1211
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 1: planes to the US and moth bolled them efectually put

1212
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: them in the desert. Yeah, Vegas desert. Yeah, just because

1213
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 1: it's dry there and things don't rust as much. And

1214
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: in fact, he was also saying to me, when the

1215
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: border's reopened and Cornis is going to be flying in

1216
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: and out, they won't have the planes to do it.

1217
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 2: No, no, they still don't have. So those A three eighties,

1218
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 2: a lot of their craft went there, but all their

1219
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 2: eight three eighties were shut down properly, like really put

1220
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 2: into proper storage. And there's there were twelve of them

1221
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 2: that went up there. They ended up scrapping two of

1222
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 2: them for metal, and so that they reduced the eight

1223
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 2: three eighty fleet to ten. And then there are still

1224
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 2: two that have never come back because it's taking that

1225
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 2: long to get them through heavy maintenance. So there are

1226
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 2: a lot of short sighted decisions. Now by the way,

1227
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 2: Quantus doesn't really want them back because there's such big

1228
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 2: aircraft that they bring prices down. So Quantus now post COVID,

1229
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 2: is playing a game of keep the number of seats

1230
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 2: that we fly constrained, and then we can keep our

1231
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 2: airfares much higher.

1232
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: But that the assumption around that, there is a presumption

1233
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 1: in that model, that business model, is that that people

1234
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 1: feel compelled to flow quantus. So where does the you know,

1235
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: the platinum member and the Champman's Club membership, maintenance and

1236
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 1: keeping my miles up, you know, all the other memberships

1237
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 1: and all the loyalty programs. Where does that fit into

1238
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 1: that business model.

1239
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 2: It's a huge part of it.

1240
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: Explain that.

1241
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 2: So it's funny there's a double status points promotion on

1242
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 2: this week. Well, by the time you go to air

1243
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 2: it'll be over. But you know, I'm as guilty as

1244
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 2: the next person. I'm booking all these flights, you know.

1245
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 1: But Joe, why do we do that? Why are we

1246
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 1: so interested in our flying status? Oh?

1247
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: That's such a good question, And I'm guilty of it myself.

1248
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 2: I mean, especially once you actually get to the platinum

1249
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 2: or Platinum one or whatever status or Chairman's lane status,

1250
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 2: and you go, what is the value of these benefits?

1251
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: Really?

1252
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 2: Is it really that good in this lounge or would Yeah,

1253
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 2: in the airport terminal, you can get just just as

1254
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 2: good good, probably a better coffee and a better sandwich

1255
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 2: than you can in here. Anyway, is because.

1256
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 1: You're in the air. Because when you're in the champans Landrew,

1257
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: you're rubbing shoulders with all these powerful.

1258
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 2: People, correct, and you it tells you that you have arrived.

1259
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 2: You know, this is an ego massage. I am one

1260
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 2: of the inner sanctum elite members of Australian society and

1261
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 2: people want to feel that way.

1262
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:46,440
Speaker 1: And people because you'll go over there as a prime minister.

1263
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 1: Well there's the treasure.

1264
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and that we've been, we've been. Western culture

1265
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 2: has has conditioned us to be like this. And that's

1266
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 2: the same reason why people wanted to pay ten grand

1267
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 2: a year to have a black Amex in the day

1268
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 2: before credit cards were all on your phone. I mean

1269
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 2: it's the same concept. You know, you want to pull

1270
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 2: that card out where people go, oh he's somebody, right

1271
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 2: or she's somebody.

1272
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: Is there a certain amount of flattery deserving for someone's

1273
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: marketing bullins?

1274
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 2: Hell? Yes? Oh full credit and the Quantus Frequent Fly

1275
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 2: program is the great success story of the Joyce era,

1276
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 2: I would say, and I think when I worked at

1277
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 2: Quantus in two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine,

1278
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 2: that sort of period, I think there might have been

1279
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 2: like about six or seven million members of the Quantus

1280
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 2: Frequent Fly Program. There's now sixteen well now they're not

1281
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:36,959
Speaker 2: all active, superactive members, but there's sixteen million members. There's

1282
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 2: only about twenty million adults in Australia, so that would

1283
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 2: be the equivalent as if the United or Delta or

1284
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 2: American Loyalty program in America had like two hundred and

1285
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 2: fifty million members, which they don't.

1286
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 1: So there's no proportional equivalents. Hell no, it is globally unique.

1287
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 1: So ration he has on a Britaint job or somebody.

1288
01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 2: Well, I mean he was a CEO. You got to

1289
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 2: give him the credit.

1290
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1291
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 2: And the thing is, it is what is underneath all

1292
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 2: of the of you know, competitors of Quantus. They scratch

1293
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 2: their head, they try everything. They you know, they try

1294
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 2: their own lounges, they drop their prices, they change their roots,

1295
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 2: They lobby in Canberra and they go, why can't we

1296
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 2: beat them? You know, not not only can't, why can't

1297
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 2: we beat them? Why can't we even come close to

1298
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 2: even competing with them? And what's underneath it is that

1299
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 2: loyalty program because it's got such deep penetration people value

1300
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 2: it so much. It's also like the sunk cost theory,

1301
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 2: like I'm in this deep I've been a place for

1302
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 2: this long, or a Sham's lange member for this long.

1303
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 2: I can't let it gain, I can't let it go now.

1304
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 2: It's part of how my Vesta's part of how my

1305
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 2: life works. You know, I've got all these points. If

1306
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 2: I if I switch now, then I'll never be able

1307
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 2: to use them. It's genius. And that's why no matter

1308
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 2: how badly Quantus treats its customers, they know Quantus will

1309
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 2: never admit this, but they know we will keep coming

1310
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 2: back for more punishment.

1311
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 1: So and therefore you can build a business model off that.

1312
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 2: So therefore they can treat you poorly. And so there's

1313
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 2: no incentive for them to compete on the quality of

1314
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 2: their product. I shouldn't say there's no incentive. There's a

1315
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 2: lower incentive for them to compete on the quality of

1316
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 2: their product, like other airlines have to do in other

1317
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 2: parts of the world. So that's why they calculate stuff.

1318
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 2: It will make the catering crap. We'll let the planes

1319
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 2: get old, We'll let the lounges deteriorate to the carpets threadbare,

1320
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 2: because it won't make a difference because the suckers will

1321
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 2: just keep rolling through the door.

1322
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 1: And how much of that is when they call them corners,

1323
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 1: is called the spirit of Australia, which is in my view,

1324
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 1: is absolutely brilliant. I agree with the lad's so good.

1325
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: In fact, I had on my mental podcast the family

1326
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 1: who did all the flying Kangaroo, the whole thing for

1327
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 1: corners and also launched Vergin Blue for that matter, whore

1328
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 1: in Australia and the brilliance of their program, their market

1329
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 1: their externals, but but the brilliants of their marketing program

1330
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 1: was just amazing.

1331
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 2: That was one of singers like that was Pete John

1332
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 2: Singleton when he was the great adman you know in

1333
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 2: the day. Him and Jeff Dixon cred those those choir

1334
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 2: ads around the Sydney Olympics and they are the greatest

1335
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 2: Australia home. I think the greatest advertising campaign Australian advertising

1336
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 2: campaign ever period. Like there is nothing as good as that. Yeah,

1337
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 2: well maybe a common come on, but that type of thing.

1338
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, well that's another one. Yeah that's another.

1339
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: But we're talking about iconic music, iconic lyrics, iconic imagery,

1340
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 1: and I want to be a member of that. Yeah,

1341
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 1: and I'll do anything.

1342
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to be that. I want to be

1343
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 2: one of the most valued customers of that company, you

1344
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 2: know's Yeah, I want to associate my own life with

1345
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 2: that brand. Because people do. They they identify in ways

1346
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 2: with brands, and they align with them and they use

1347
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 2: them as proxies for themselves.

1348
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:47,400
Speaker 1: That's who I am. I'm a spirit of a Australia

1349
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 1: sort of thing. And then we tend to think and

1350
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 1: so therefore Quantus sort of has done us, not anyone

1351
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 1: in particular, but Quantis as a group, as a corporation

1352
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: has done quite a brilliant job as a corporation edging

1353
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: everyone else out of the system, like you're out, you're out,

1354
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 1: I'm in. Help said that were you know, the first

1355
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 1: airline here ever in the country. But they've done quite

1356
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 1: a brilliant job of maintaining the position and actually enhancing

1357
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 1: their position overall overall.

1358
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they've made it into a fortress. Yeah. One

1359
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 2: of the ways.

1360
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:18,480
Speaker 1: That's a good way of just scrobing fortress.

1361
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, good businesses have motes, Yeah, as

1362
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 2: you know very well, and you know, how do you

1363
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 2: get over the moat into the fortress to compete with them?

1364
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 2: And very hard once you have such a dominant competitive position,

1365
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 2: and Jetstar them created Jeft Dicks and created Jetstar and

1366
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 2: he appointed Alan Joyce to be the first sea of

1367
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 2: jet Star. Right, yeah, and that's that was a globally

1368
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 2: unique thing as well, Like no full service airline had

1369
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 2: ever said, let's create a budget carrier to compete with us,

1370
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 2: because that was considered like cannibalizing yourself. It was like

1371
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 2: latest Steve you never do it well. Steve Jobs created

1372
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 2: the iPhone which destroyed the iPods sort of like that.

1373
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 2: It was very against the grain thinking. And to this day,

1374
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 2: airlines around the world have tried and failed to replicate

1375
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 2: the Quantus Jet Star thing. Duel brand strategy they call it.

1376
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 2: And it's so it makes it impossible for Virgin to

1377
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 2: ever really get a It makes it very difficult for

1378
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:22,280
Speaker 2: Virgin to ever do anything other than really get the scraps.

1379
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 2: And certainly for a Rex or a Bonds or another upstart,

1380
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 2: it makes it very difficult for them to ever have

1381
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 2: a chance. If Quantus, Virgin and Jetstar were three different

1382
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 2: companies and they were competing with each other. That would

1383
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 2: be a much more competitive market for consumers and would

1384
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 2: there be better outcomes. But that's never going to happen.

1385
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 2: I mean one, no government's ever going to force Quantas

1386
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 2: to sell jet Star. But it's the way they do.

1387
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 2: They can just squeeze everyone from both ends. So you've

1388
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 2: got Quantus with all the highest paying customers paying the

1389
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 2: highest fares, and then you've got jet Star, which just

1390
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 2: rakes up all the cheapest travel, all the leisure holiday travelers,

1391
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:59,280
Speaker 2: and they have the lowest costs so they don't have

1392
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:01,440
Speaker 2: to make a huehuge amount of money. Jet Star the

1393
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 2: real creams made by quantits. But they just take all

1394
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 2: this traffic, the cheap end and the expensive end, and

1395
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 2: they squeeze their competition in the middle. So Virgin stuck

1396
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 2: in the middle, trying to be a little bit premium,

1397
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 2: a little bit like budget. And so what are they

1398
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 2: They're just sort of a bit of a blamonge and

1399
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 2: and like again and again. They they just dominate by that,

1400
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:25,600
Speaker 2: and they really got Rex that way too.

1401
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:27,280
Speaker 1: They've squeezed everyone out.

1402
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:31,559
Speaker 2: And by the way, no one should be no one

1403
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 2: should should blame Quantus for being a really aggressive competitor,

1404
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:37,360
Speaker 2: Like that's what shareholders want them to be, and no

1405
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 2: one should take that away from them. But it's where

1406
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:44,240
Speaker 2: does aggression crossover into anti competitive and like if you

1407
01:08:44,360 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 2: dump the protect that's the point anti competitive. Yeah.

1408
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:50,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, So whose responsibility is that?

1409
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 2: That's the governments? Well, the a triple C is part

1410
01:08:53,280 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 2: of the government, and the government, the political part of

1411
01:08:55,880 --> 01:09:00,160
Speaker 2: the government also is in charge of sort of setting

1412
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:03,600
Speaker 2: the powers and the budgets of the policies. Yeah, so

1413
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:09,760
Speaker 2: it's the government in totality that sets aviation policy. But

1414
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 2: but it's always that.

1415
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 1: Therefore, why governments sort of compromising themselves, of putting them

1416
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:18,080
Speaker 1: in a position where their position can be questioned or

1417
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:21,639
Speaker 1: and or possibly compromised. Is that your whole point? Yes,

1418
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 1: Because you know, his his mob who become extraordinarily powerful,

1419
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:27,720
Speaker 1: done a great job for the shoholders, et cetera. Blah

1420
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:31,400
Speaker 1: blah blah. You the government should not put yourself in

1421
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 1: a position where you're going to have to second Someone's

1422
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:36,599
Speaker 1: going to be said, we're all going to be second

1423
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 1: guessing your decision. Because the only way that their power

1424
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:45,920
Speaker 1: can be managed by virtue of their great success is

1425
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 1: through you the government who we voted in. Is that

1426
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:48,639
Speaker 1: your whole point?

1427
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 2: It's exactly right. Yeah, it's exactly right. That's the thesis

1428
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:54,439
Speaker 2: of the book. Yeah you've knowed it. Yeah.

1429
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well and it doesn't really matter whether it's alban

1430
01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:57,639
Speaker 1: Easy or.

1431
01:09:57,920 --> 01:09:59,719
Speaker 2: Because it was a politician.

1432
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:00,720
Speaker 1: People before that.

1433
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 2: Scott Morrison sucked up to Alan Joyce as hard as

1434
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:05,479
Speaker 2: albo ever did.

1435
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:08,200
Speaker 1: And the next person after, Margaret.

1436
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 2: Jackson and Jeff Dixon before Alan Joyce came along, were

1437
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:13,839
Speaker 2: just the most phenomenal lobbyist. They long time ago, Singapore

1438
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,759
Speaker 2: Airlines wanted to launch flights between Australia and the US

1439
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 2: and compete with Quantus, and Jeff and Margaret at Quantus

1440
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:27,599
Speaker 2: killed at Stone Dead and John Howard blocked it. There's

1441
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:30,680
Speaker 2: been like example after example. This is not a this

1442
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 2: is not an elbow thing, it's not a scomo thing.

1443
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 2: It is a system thing.

1444
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:36,520
Speaker 1: So do you think that's but that is that apologician

1445
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 1: reading the two leaves saying well, you know, Australians loved

1446
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 1: this company and they did love this they he correct.

1447
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 1: But if I go back there, it's like the Kuala bet.

1448
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 1: We can't have anything that's going to challenge our icons

1449
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:51,080
Speaker 1: what we love.

1450
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:55,679
Speaker 2: But that's why Quantus was being so ingenious by branding

1451
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 2: itself that way. That also was not only did it

1452
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:00,960
Speaker 2: make us want to travel with them, it also allowed

1453
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:03,760
Speaker 2: them to effectively blackmail governments and say, well what about

1454
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:05,720
Speaker 2: all the jobs? You know if you let like, all

1455
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 2: these people will have to sack. In my book, Margaret

1456
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 2: Jackson said to Howard government minister when she was lobbying

1457
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 2: against the Singapore Airlines thing. She brilliantly she said, well,

1458
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 2: you can allow Singapore Airlines to compete with us on

1459
01:11:19,479 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 2: the Pacific to America, but you'll just have to explain

1460
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 2: to the people of Tamworth why they're now catching the

1461
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:28,439
Speaker 2: bus to Sydney. Right, that's just it's blackmail, right, yeah, brilliant.

1462
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 2: I'm giving her credit for that. And they're they're terrific

1463
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:33,760
Speaker 2: lobbyists and government's time and again have fallen for their

1464
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 2: stuff on jobs in particular like protecting Australian jobs. But

1465
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 2: then the problem with that argument under Joyce at the

1466
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 2: end was that he was sacking so many Australians and

1467
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:46,280
Speaker 2: not just sacking them, but offshoring jobs like at now

1468
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:49,160
Speaker 2: a lot of crew on Quantus are based overseas. That's

1469
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:52,640
Speaker 2: all happened under him, So that argument gets gets diluted.

1470
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 2: And the unions, even though it's a labor government and

1471
01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 2: sort of the Albanese's really pro Quantus, you've also got

1472
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 2: the unions in the Labor party who are very anti

1473
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:05,719
Speaker 2: Quantists because of what they did to employees. So it's

1474
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 2: sort of a complicated story. Again, why it's frustrating that

1475
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:11,839
Speaker 2: the whole thing gets boiled down to just albo Quantis.

1476
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:15,519
Speaker 2: It's even in the Albanese government they were very very

1477
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:18,720
Speaker 2: anti Quantus on industrial relations. They change the laws so

1478
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:21,960
Speaker 2: that Quantus has got to pay a lot more for

1479
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:25,280
Speaker 2: its for its crew than it did.

1480
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 1: So there are some branding points for the government in

1481
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:31,360
Speaker 1: relation to the way they've managed course as power.

1482
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:33,280
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I mean that's giving them maybe more

1483
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:34,600
Speaker 2: credit than I want to give them. But what I

1484
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:36,800
Speaker 2: would just say that it is nuanced. You know. That's

1485
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 2: why again why this needs to be a book and

1486
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:39,799
Speaker 2: not an article.

1487
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:42,680
Speaker 1: It's why this needs to be like a longer conversation

1488
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:44,560
Speaker 1: and not a ten minute conversation, which is why I

1489
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:46,479
Speaker 1: should it come on the show, because like I think

1490
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:49,680
Speaker 1: that we Australians who going to read this book. We

1491
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 1: need an opportunity to get the context around it. And

1492
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 1: I think it's really important that we all get context

1493
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:57,559
Speaker 1: around what it is, because otherwise, Joe asked me, becomes

1494
01:12:57,560 --> 01:12:59,479
Speaker 1: the devil ink in it himself because it will be

1495
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:02,160
Speaker 1: fifty fifth. Yeah, some are going to say good on you,

1496
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:05,599
Speaker 1: well done. If someone saying, why are you're pulling? Pulling

1497
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:09,200
Speaker 1: the organization apart? I mean and and to some extent

1498
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:11,000
Speaker 1: you're going to get You're going to get caught up

1499
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 1: in this funeral. I mean, have you been handling?

1500
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 2: Uh, Well, you just put one foot in front of

1501
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:18,640
Speaker 2: the other and focus on on on the work and

1502
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 2: the and the issues, you know, not the emotion or

1503
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:23,519
Speaker 2: the politics. It's just it's just.

1504
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:26,680
Speaker 1: Your front and center at the moment. You're you're the

1505
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:29,559
Speaker 1: most controversial journalist at the moment. We have an election

1506
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 1: coming up with elbows struggling at the polls. He bought

1507
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:35,640
Speaker 1: a house recently. That didn't help him. It's really like

1508
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 1: the time of your book's perfect in terms of the

1509
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:43,240
Speaker 1: book relative to elbow. It'll blowover and your journals. You

1510
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 1: know how this works. So what do you reckon will happen?

1511
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:46,680
Speaker 2: Well? I don't I don't know. I can't tell you

1512
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:49,760
Speaker 2: how the Albanesi government will respond, but I do think

1513
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:52,560
Speaker 2: in terms of the political narrative, people move on. And

1514
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:56,000
Speaker 2: the thing is, these stories morph, so everyone just attacks

1515
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:59,400
Speaker 2: elbow for a few days, and then then it turns

1516
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 2: out that you know, other politicians were doing yeah you know,

1517
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 2: oh woop Swede didn't disclose our upgrades or we and

1518
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:07,400
Speaker 2: then that all becomes a story. And then they quickly

1519
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:09,840
Speaker 2: realized nobody can win from this because they all really

1520
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 2: just want to stay in the chairman's lounge and they

1521
01:14:11,439 --> 01:14:13,719
Speaker 2: want to still be able to keep getting their upgrades.

1522
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:16,160
Speaker 2: And they all realize that and go, let's just stop

1523
01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 2: talking about this because I mean, nothing will change. I

1524
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 2: have very low expectations of change. I mean punters, I

1525
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:25,280
Speaker 2: mean punters I think are hungry for change. They're sick

1526
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:28,760
Speaker 2: to death of this stuff. Not just in Australia, like

1527
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:32,479
Speaker 2: the UK Prime Minister Kirstarma is getting absolutely killed over

1528
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:35,519
Speaker 2: the free concert tickets that he accepted and the free

1529
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 2: football game tickets, and there's just a real tiredness from

1530
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:42,840
Speaker 2: the public, not internationally in Western democracies of politicians that

1531
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 2: are just seen to be in it for the for

1532
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:50,599
Speaker 2: themselves and for the trappings of office. If if If

1533
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 2: Albanezi came out and said, I get it, I get

1534
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 2: it all right, let's not quibble about this. I'm ending

1535
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:02,240
Speaker 2: by am ending chairman's lagch membership for all politicians. I'm

1536
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:06,160
Speaker 2: ending upgrades for all politicians. They are forbidden. I think

1537
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 2: his polls would go up, and that would be a

1538
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:10,720
Speaker 2: smart thing to do. However, Howard is popularity to go

1539
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 2: in the party room. Politicians really care about this stuff.

1540
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:17,280
Speaker 2: But there's a good sorry if I'm talking too long,

1541
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:20,599
Speaker 2: there's a good parallel with John Howard in two thousand

1542
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:23,639
Speaker 2: and four, and you might remember Mark Latham was banging

1543
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:27,920
Speaker 2: on about how politicians getting their lifetime pensions was an

1544
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:32,240
Speaker 2: outrage and arguably there was some outrageous examples in the system.

1545
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 2: So John Howard came out and he just ended it.

1546
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 2: Even though that was that good policy, I don't know,

1547
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:43,400
Speaker 2: but it was, he screwed over every incoming politician after that.

1548
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:44,880
Speaker 2: He just got up and he said, I'm taking this

1549
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:48,320
Speaker 2: issue off the table and I am ending all life

1550
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,080
Speaker 2: pensions now from now on, when you're elected to Parliament,

1551
01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:53,640
Speaker 2: you get fifteen four point four percent superannuation, which is

1552
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:55,439
Speaker 2: still more than most people. But that's what the public

1553
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:58,439
Speaker 2: service gets, and that's it. There's no pension when you

1554
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,479
Speaker 2: leave that. That is it. And if Albo took the

1555
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:04,240
Speaker 2: same approach and said, all right, we're all going to

1556
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 2: get our snouts out of the trough, no more upgrades,

1557
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:09,639
Speaker 2: no more chairman's lounge, that would be a really smart

1558
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:11,679
Speaker 2: and similar approach. You just have to think maybe it's

1559
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:14,439
Speaker 2: gone too far now too well, Either it's gone too

1560
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:17,559
Speaker 2: far or maybe it's blown over. And he's hoping and

1561
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:20,160
Speaker 2: everyone's hoping that no one gets back to it, and

1562
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:23,600
Speaker 2: that no one can that they've sort of survived and

1563
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 2: they can cling on to their goodies.

1564
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,760
Speaker 1: Does he give you Does he pick up the phone

1565
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:29,439
Speaker 1: and say, hey, Joe, what the hell's going on in.

1566
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:31,400
Speaker 2: That?

1567
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 1: Would you? Well?

1568
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 2: Last year I tried to engage with his office when

1569
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 2: I wrote the fact that his son had been had

1570
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:42,519
Speaker 2: been put in the chairman's lounge and his office was

1571
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:47,719
Speaker 2: impossible to deal with. Would not return phone calls for days,

1572
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:51,040
Speaker 2: repeated phone calls over and over again. Would not respond

1573
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:56,040
Speaker 2: to emails, repeated emails, which is just pretty crazy given

1574
01:16:56,920 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 2: these people are paid by the public to respond to

1575
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:03,439
Speaker 2: questions from analysts. So the only communication was when he

1576
01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:08,400
Speaker 2: would call my editor in chief to complain your boss, Yeah,

1577
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:11,559
Speaker 2: and wanted to kill the story. And luckily I have

1578
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:13,960
Speaker 2: an editor in chief who doesn't do that if a

1579
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:18,639
Speaker 2: story is true. So and only last only this week

1580
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:22,559
Speaker 2: he finally admitted that, yes, his son is in the

1581
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:25,600
Speaker 2: Shaman's land. So that was something that was written a

1582
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 2: year ago. He's never even acknowledged it or he's refused

1583
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:30,720
Speaker 2: to even answer whether it was true. So now he's

1584
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:34,120
Speaker 2: finally sort of come out and it's been a bit messy. Obviously,

1585
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:39,599
Speaker 2: I don't No, I don't have a direct relationship with him.

1586
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:40,719
Speaker 1: What about Alan Joyce?

1587
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 2: No, I tried to As I said, I tried to

1588
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:47,160
Speaker 2: contact Sorry, I did reach out to Alan Joyce repeatedly.

1589
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:49,080
Speaker 2: I asked him to talk to me for the book

1590
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 2: I was keen.

1591
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 1: On before his exalt, before he exoled himself from Australia

1592
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:52,960
Speaker 1: back to Ireland.

1593
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 2: Or No, this was this year, you know, when the

1594
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:58,880
Speaker 2: process of writing the book. Again, Alan Joyce was not

1595
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:03,120
Speaker 2: someone who ever tried to engage with me directly. He

1596
01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:04,920
Speaker 2: also complained about me to my boss.

1597
01:18:07,200 --> 01:18:09,080
Speaker 1: What do you do? You know, my boss?

1598
01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 2: It's all it's all written about in the book. You know,

1599
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:13,799
Speaker 2: my boss repeatedly said to him, if you can point

1600
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:16,120
Speaker 2: to me, you know the facts here that are wrong,

1601
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:20,720
Speaker 2: and we'll we'll fix it. But you know last year,

1602
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:25,920
Speaker 2: at that time, Joyce was unable to identify those and

1603
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:27,840
Speaker 2: so he was just frustrated because he just didn't want

1604
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 2: to be criticized. And again that was that was his

1605
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:34,679
Speaker 2: judgment had gone astray. He was he was no longer

1606
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:38,920
Speaker 2: able to say, I'm being criticized by this person. Maybe

1607
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 2: I should think about the substance of those criticisms and

1608
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:46,000
Speaker 2: are they accurate. But he was just so so black

1609
01:18:46,040 --> 01:18:48,920
Speaker 2: and white, so self blind. You know, it was if

1610
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 2: it was my way and any other way is wrong.

1611
01:18:51,160 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 2: And that's the point that he got to and that's

1612
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:53,640
Speaker 2: what did him in.

1613
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:57,080
Speaker 1: Do you think we've lost much by Alan Joyce leaving

1614
01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:00,320
Speaker 1: the country and he has permanent.

1615
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:02,439
Speaker 2: No, no, no, he's he lives here, he lives. Yeah,

1616
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:07,800
Speaker 2: he went away immediately to escape the fuor And yeah,

1617
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 2: he left the country and so the Senate couldn't call

1618
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:10,400
Speaker 2: him as a witness.

1619
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:13,080
Speaker 1: Sorry, we don't know if that's the reason. Yeah, but

1620
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:19,080
Speaker 1: he wasn't able to be to attend. Yeah, and look,

1621
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 1: the thing about Australia is and this is why I

1622
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 1: was sort of disappointed he didn't talk to me, because

1623
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:27,040
Speaker 1: I suspect it probably changed the book by not having

1624
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:30,080
Speaker 1: his voice in it. I'm not saying that it would

1625
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:31,840
Speaker 1: have become a really pro Allen Joyce book if he

1626
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 1: had spoken to me, but I think it would have

1627
01:19:34,040 --> 01:19:37,000
Speaker 1: had more of his perspective. And the thing is, Australians

1628
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:38,519
Speaker 1: actually like a comeback story.

1629
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 2: You know. It's like we like really hammering people who

1630
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:44,680
Speaker 2: do the wrong thing or you know, even perceived to

1631
01:19:44,680 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 2: pop their head up too high, but equally those people

1632
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:51,519
Speaker 2: who turn things around or they come back. The redemption

1633
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:55,640
Speaker 2: tale is a bit of an Ozssy favorite. Yeah, I mean,

1634
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:57,439
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised if Alan Joyce is back in

1635
01:19:57,479 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 2: the future. It's not like he's not not a quant

1636
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:04,720
Speaker 2: but like, you don't sort of just lose all of

1637
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:09,599
Speaker 2: the experience and valuable knowledge that you have from from

1638
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:13,000
Speaker 2: a company or running in such an important company for

1639
01:20:13,040 --> 01:20:16,640
Speaker 2: such a long time, and potentially after a period in

1640
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:20,320
Speaker 2: the wilderness, he gets better perspective as well on the

1641
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:23,400
Speaker 2: mistakes that he's made. I'm sure he wouldn't agree with

1642
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 2: everything that I've said, but I reckon probably over time

1643
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:29,400
Speaker 2: you start to say, yeah, probably just did that wrong,

1644
01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 2: Probably could have done that better. I'm not in the

1645
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 2: business of like trying to bury people, and I don't

1646
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:38,080
Speaker 2: want Alan Joyce to be gone banished, you know forever.

1647
01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 2: That's not my intention anymore that it's my intention to

1648
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,160
Speaker 2: try and destroy Anthony Alberaneesi. I mean, this is just

1649
01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:45,320
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to put the facts out there and

1650
01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:51,400
Speaker 2: put together what happened at Quantas and let other people

1651
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:52,440
Speaker 2: make their judgment.

1652
01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:53,559
Speaker 1: Just so it would be clear on this, so that

1653
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:57,080
Speaker 1: there was a bias that that's been lead to the

1654
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:00,960
Speaker 1: media that that you remember the Liberal Party and et cetera.

1655
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:03,120
Speaker 1: Can we just put that into context now.

1656
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:06,479
Speaker 2: Well, that I was a Liberal Party staffer, which is

1657
01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:07,599
Speaker 2: all in the book.

1658
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:10,800
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just closed. Can you just express it now?

1659
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:16,400
Speaker 2: Yeah? Sure. So I started out as a political staffer

1660
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:19,120
Speaker 2: for Bruce Baird and Joe Hockey in the Howard government.

1661
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:21,680
Speaker 2: That was the last time I worked in politics too,

1662
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:24,439
Speaker 2: the great politicians. But that was the last time I

1663
01:21:24,439 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 2: worked in politics. I mean that's almost twenty years ago.

1664
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:28,519
Speaker 2: I don't think I then worked as a journalist for

1665
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:33,920
Speaker 2: twelve years and so I still talk to lots of

1666
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 2: people in politics on both sides. That's what journalists do.

1667
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:39,120
Speaker 1: Are you political? That?

1668
01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 2: No, far from it. I have no interest in politics,

1669
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:46,360
Speaker 2: and actually I much prefer writing about business and politics

1670
01:21:46,360 --> 01:21:49,600
Speaker 2: again because the responses tend to be rational instead of emotional.

1671
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:55,519
Speaker 2: So it was sort of it's sort of expected that

1672
01:21:55,560 --> 01:21:58,800
Speaker 2: you're going to get attacked. You know, that's playing the man,

1673
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:03,599
Speaker 2: not the ball to say, well, you know, he wasn't

1674
01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:06,640
Speaker 2: addressing the substance of the book. He was sort of

1675
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:10,080
Speaker 2: suggesting that I had improper motivations, and I don't think

1676
01:22:10,160 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 2: that's well, I can tell you that's not right. There

1677
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:17,120
Speaker 2: was even a story in the news dot com where

1678
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:20,040
Speaker 2: I had been pictured having lunch with Peter Dutton like

1679
01:22:20,920 --> 01:22:23,360
Speaker 2: nine months ago or something like that, which I thought

1680
01:22:23,400 --> 01:22:25,920
Speaker 2: was quite funny really, which was true. I mean, there

1681
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:27,800
Speaker 2: I am in the photo. But you do, you catch

1682
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:31,200
Speaker 2: up with politicians, you talk to them. But that's even

1683
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:34,280
Speaker 2: even that that's been painted as a conspiracy theory.

1684
01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:36,439
Speaker 1: We Peter certainly didn't say, look, Joe, could you just

1685
01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:39,160
Speaker 1: in and write a book about and mention Anthony el.

1686
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:41,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, no worries. No, wire's Peter, I'll just go

1687
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:43,920
Speaker 2: down a rabbit hole for ten months just for you.

1688
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:47,280
Speaker 1: Can I just peak your journalistic sort of interest, et

1689
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:50,800
Speaker 1: cetera for a moment. One of the things you mentioned

1690
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:53,200
Speaker 1: quantus being sort of a monopolist or having too much

1691
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:55,080
Speaker 1: control in relation or having a lot of control and

1692
01:22:55,160 --> 01:22:58,600
Speaker 1: relation to one aspect of Australian business. But if you

1693
01:22:58,600 --> 01:23:01,559
Speaker 1: think about Austraian business generally, were we've got you know,

1694
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:04,280
Speaker 1: three or four major insurance companies, three four big banks,

1695
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:07,920
Speaker 1: were you know, three or four big telego market supermarkets

1696
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:11,120
Speaker 1: as well. It's sort of like a symptom of Australian

1697
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:14,559
Speaker 1: economy at the moment because of its size. Wide enough,

1698
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:16,120
Speaker 1: that's the reason, but that could be the reason. Perhaps

1699
01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:18,800
Speaker 1: it is. But do you think that we will never

1700
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:23,479
Speaker 1: solve these issues because I mean, like CBA, for example,

1701
01:23:24,280 --> 01:23:26,200
Speaker 1: it was owned by the government, one of the most

1702
01:23:26,240 --> 01:23:29,360
Speaker 1: love banks in the country, probably got fifty three percent control.

1703
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:32,640
Speaker 1: But they'd have seven eight million customers for sure, and

1704
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:34,320
Speaker 1: had a good bank. Dude, Yeah we're wrong, go a

1705
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:37,719
Speaker 1: good bank, ye, and good competition and plenty competition sitting

1706
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:40,920
Speaker 1: around them. Macquarie in particular has come out of nowhere

1707
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:44,800
Speaker 1: as a tremendous retail bank. Yeah, totally, totally, but still

1708
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:48,080
Speaker 1: it's now five concentrated, five hands perhaps, but five it's.

1709
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:50,439
Speaker 2: Pretty good for a population of twenty five million people.

1710
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:53,080
Speaker 1: But it's not. But do you think it's good though,

1711
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:55,960
Speaker 1: if there's another twenty two others who don't really get

1712
01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:58,479
Speaker 1: a looking like in other than twenty two banks building

1713
01:23:58,479 --> 01:24:02,040
Speaker 1: societies in smaller banks, regional banks sea But it's sort

1714
01:24:02,040 --> 01:24:06,160
Speaker 1: of and then therefore you get pricing oler gobblies is effected.

1715
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:08,920
Speaker 1: What I'm trying to say here, and I don't want

1716
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:10,560
Speaker 1: you to reflect on any particular industry, but do you

1717
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:15,000
Speaker 1: think that that is a symptom of Australia and that

1718
01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:18,040
Speaker 1: maybe not. We're not going to solve quantus or anything.

1719
01:24:20,360 --> 01:24:24,559
Speaker 2: It's hard to see how well the problem is. There's

1720
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:26,800
Speaker 2: no simple answer to that. Like one part of is

1721
01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:30,559
Speaker 2: the population a big Australia. People won't like hearing this,

1722
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:33,000
Speaker 2: but I'm in favor of Australia having high immigration intake

1723
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:36,720
Speaker 2: and getting to a much bigger population and building up

1724
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:39,479
Speaker 2: the urban density of the East Coast. Not the city

1725
01:24:39,520 --> 01:24:41,360
Speaker 2: is necessarily, but all of the other regional cities along

1726
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:43,040
Speaker 2: the way could be much bigger, But of course that

1727
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:45,720
Speaker 2: means that the state governments have to keep up with

1728
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:50,080
Speaker 2: the infrastructure requirements. But if you import skilled migrants who

1729
01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:54,120
Speaker 2: bring who come here with money, with qualifications, who pay,

1730
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:57,240
Speaker 2: who earn good money and good jobs, and pay high taxes,

1731
01:24:57,680 --> 01:25:01,080
Speaker 2: then that should over time work and then that will

1732
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:03,559
Speaker 2: solve a lot of the competitive issues in the economy

1733
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:06,400
Speaker 2: and make it a more dynamic economy because it's very

1734
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:09,840
Speaker 2: hard to You need scale as a business and you

1735
01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 2: need what we call TAM total addressable market really the

1736
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:17,320
Speaker 2: banking sector to have sort of as you say, five

1737
01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:20,760
Speaker 2: players plus a whole bunch of smaller ones, and sure

1738
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:22,680
Speaker 2: they can't get a look in, but they would get

1739
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:24,960
Speaker 2: a look in, more of a look in. They'd be

1740
01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:27,679
Speaker 2: more sustainable if there were sixty million people in Australia CRET.

1741
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:30,559
Speaker 2: So that's part of the problem. On the airline side,

1742
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:33,720
Speaker 2: it's a part of the problem, but it's not the

1743
01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:37,880
Speaker 2: whole problem. And the just as big a problem is

1744
01:25:37,920 --> 01:25:42,120
Speaker 2: that Quantus and Jetstar are one company and to take

1745
01:25:42,200 --> 01:25:46,000
Speaker 2: them on when they've got an established sixty five market

1746
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:50,240
Speaker 2: position is not impossible, but it's close to impossible.

1747
01:25:49,760 --> 01:25:51,320
Speaker 1: Because do you think the gunner should be doing with

1748
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:54,600
Speaker 1: One of the considerations of the recent quarranty the retails,

1749
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:57,559
Speaker 1: the big retailed big grocery retailers was that they should

1750
01:25:57,560 --> 01:25:59,680
Speaker 1: be made or should be encouraged to sell off part

1751
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:03,000
Speaker 1: of the businesses. Should corners beencourage yourself?

1752
01:26:03,160 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 2: Just well, you could encourage them all that all you like,

1753
01:26:05,439 --> 01:26:07,080
Speaker 2: They're not going to do it. They would you have

1754
01:26:07,120 --> 01:26:12,000
Speaker 2: to be forced to do it. Would I don't think

1755
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 2: they should be forced to do it, But put it

1756
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:15,679
Speaker 2: this way, they should be threatened with it. It should

1757
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:18,880
Speaker 2: be possible that it could happen. And if that was

1758
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:21,960
Speaker 2: even hanging over them as a possibility, it would change

1759
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:24,840
Speaker 2: their behavior. You know, they would think twice about you know,

1760
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:28,519
Speaker 2: how much they drop their prices and threw large numbers

1761
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:31,800
Speaker 2: of seats into new markets. You know, things that can

1762
01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:35,280
Speaker 2: be on the borders of anti competitive versus aggressive, that

1763
01:26:35,280 --> 01:26:37,520
Speaker 2: that sort of behavior would definitely be curtailed.

1764
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:43,839
Speaker 1: Can be this diuger when it comes to governments encouraging

1765
01:26:43,920 --> 01:26:47,720
Speaker 1: us to change our behavior. Dumbmans encourage us as individuals

1766
01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:52,400
Speaker 1: consumers en rules, just individuals voters constituents to change your

1767
01:26:52,439 --> 01:26:54,519
Speaker 1: behavior is a good example. That is of course during COVID,

1768
01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:58,479
Speaker 1: but they encourage us to change your behavior, and the

1769
01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:00,839
Speaker 1: Reserve Bank, the Reserve Bank encourage you to stop spending

1770
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:03,400
Speaker 1: by putting interest rates up. Sure, and they have no

1771
01:27:03,479 --> 01:27:07,040
Speaker 1: trouble doing that. And in fact it's a fundamental of

1772
01:27:07,080 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 1: Australian the Australian system and by the way global systems

1773
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:15,679
Speaker 1: works everywhere around the world. Why is it then governments

1774
01:27:15,720 --> 01:27:20,040
Speaker 1: are nervous about trying to change the behavior of corporation

1775
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:25,840
Speaker 1: like Quantus by saying listen here a cell or if

1776
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:28,240
Speaker 1: you don't, we're gonna we'll do something about it. You've

1777
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:30,880
Speaker 1: got to do something about your behavior, otherwise we will

1778
01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:32,280
Speaker 1: force you to sell get star.

1779
01:27:32,520 --> 01:27:35,599
Speaker 2: For example, politicians have experience with trying to tell businesses

1780
01:27:35,600 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 2: what to do. They try to tell the miners to

1781
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:38,280
Speaker 2: pay a mining tax.

1782
01:27:38,880 --> 01:27:40,480
Speaker 1: That was a major disaster.

1783
01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:43,599
Speaker 2: And the miners destroyed the right government they did. So

1784
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:48,519
Speaker 2: you take on big business, it's the lobby. You take

1785
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:50,439
Speaker 2: on big business at your own risk. And I think

1786
01:27:50,479 --> 01:27:52,320
Speaker 2: if you chip away at them on the fringes, they

1787
01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:54,400
Speaker 2: might copy it on the chin. You know, they will complain,

1788
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:56,600
Speaker 2: they lobby, but they won't actually go to war with you,

1789
01:27:57,400 --> 01:28:03,679
Speaker 2: because ultimately, you know, a big corporation can justify spending

1790
01:28:04,040 --> 01:28:07,439
Speaker 2: tens of millions, even hundreds of millions of dollars on

1791
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:11,960
Speaker 2: public advertising, campaign mining tax because it's existential to their

1792
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:15,839
Speaker 2: profit totally, you know. But a political but a government

1793
01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 2: can only spend so much, and a political party they're

1794
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:20,920
Speaker 2: quite poor, and in fact they rely on companies to

1795
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:22,680
Speaker 2: give them money in donations.

1796
01:28:22,840 --> 01:28:26,639
Speaker 1: So that old horse self, that old horse called self interest,

1797
01:28:27,120 --> 01:28:30,519
Speaker 1: which is in every race, emerges again. So it's political

1798
01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:34,559
Speaker 1: self interest. And so the smart people at the places,

1799
01:28:34,680 --> 01:28:37,719
Speaker 1: like those places where they are creating old goblies et cetera,

1800
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:40,800
Speaker 1: or end or monopolies and youobolies. The smart people in

1801
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 1: turn that inside those places that actually whilst they know

1802
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:45,720
Speaker 1: their behavior is maybe not perfect, they also know the

1803
01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:47,760
Speaker 1: behavior of the people who may will be able to

1804
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:50,160
Speaker 1: change their behavior. That is a government. They know that

1805
01:28:50,240 --> 01:28:54,000
Speaker 1: self interest and so maybe this will never be solved.

1806
01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:56,920
Speaker 1: I have, again, as I say, I have very low

1807
01:28:57,040 --> 01:29:01,120
Speaker 1: expectations of change. Would you expect an inquiring Maybe a

1808
01:29:01,200 --> 01:29:03,919
Speaker 1: new government picks it up and says let's have an inquiry.

1809
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 1: Absolutely not off the back of Joe's book, they just

1810
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:09,599
Speaker 1: wanted to go away made finally and it's a good read,

1811
01:29:09,680 --> 01:29:12,559
Speaker 1: and I commend anyone who's listening just to go and

1812
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:14,120
Speaker 1: by the book. It's a bloody good is it. By

1813
01:29:14,120 --> 01:29:16,400
Speaker 1: the way, to do the audiobook I did. I narrated

1814
01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:18,360
Speaker 1: the audiobook. How long does it take?

1815
01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:20,439
Speaker 2: I think it's twelve hours, so you'd have to do

1816
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:21,040
Speaker 2: yours quick.

1817
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:23,040
Speaker 1: I couldn't speak for more than two hours.

1818
01:29:23,600 --> 01:29:25,120
Speaker 2: Oh no, I didn't do it in one take. I

1819
01:29:25,160 --> 01:29:27,400
Speaker 2: did it over about four or five days. Yeah.

1820
01:29:27,400 --> 01:29:30,000
Speaker 1: I took my two weeks or something. And when you're

1821
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:32,160
Speaker 1: doing it where you're reading things go my god, right

1822
01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:35,080
Speaker 1: did I say that? You know that? Well?

1823
01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:36,759
Speaker 2: I found it a good way of finding errors.

1824
01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:39,360
Speaker 1: So like, but once you publish it, you've got to

1825
01:29:39,400 --> 01:29:40,040
Speaker 1: read what you wrote.

1826
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:43,360
Speaker 2: I know it's annoying because you go that was that's

1827
01:29:43,439 --> 01:29:44,840
Speaker 2: the wrong word, or same as me.

1828
01:29:44,880 --> 01:29:47,439
Speaker 1: I was going to I was freaking out because I

1829
01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:50,000
Speaker 1: did my audio many about four years after three or

1830
01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:51,599
Speaker 1: four years after wrote the book, and it was some

1831
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:53,320
Speaker 1: stuff was a little bit out of date. So if

1832
01:29:53,360 --> 01:29:56,000
Speaker 1: you buy my book, and any way it's about Joe's books,

1833
01:29:56,000 --> 01:30:01,320
Speaker 1: I don't worry cross from importantly, they what where to

1834
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:01,640
Speaker 1: from here?

1835
01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:01,880
Speaker 2: Mate?

1836
01:30:01,880 --> 01:30:04,360
Speaker 1: Your book's out? You know you're batting things back. I

1837
01:30:04,439 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 1: know you're going into Christmas time. We're going to see

1838
01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:09,800
Speaker 1: Joe emerging again next year in journalism.

1839
01:30:09,320 --> 01:30:12,000
Speaker 2: I hope. So yeah, Look, I don't have any news

1840
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:13,160
Speaker 2: to share about that.

1841
01:30:13,080 --> 01:30:14,840
Speaker 1: But breaking news is always welcome on this.

1842
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:17,679
Speaker 2: Show, and I'm not being coy by any stretch either.

1843
01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:22,519
Speaker 2: But ye know, journalism is what I'm good at. Well,

1844
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:25,000
Speaker 2: some people will disagree, but I don't have any other

1845
01:30:25,040 --> 01:30:26,760
Speaker 2: core skill. Really, It's what I've been doing for a

1846
01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:31,040
Speaker 2: long time, and I enjoy it most days. So I think,

1847
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:33,400
Speaker 2: you know, I've been off on the you know, I've

1848
01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:35,800
Speaker 2: been down my rabbit hole for a year now and

1849
01:30:35,920 --> 01:30:38,160
Speaker 2: I do miss it, and I think I'm leaning towards

1850
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:39,880
Speaker 2: going back to journalism, but look, I just don't know

1851
01:30:39,920 --> 01:30:42,160
Speaker 2: what that looks like yet. I've I've just finished the

1852
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:44,479
Speaker 2: book and I've been out there talking about it, and

1853
01:30:44,479 --> 01:30:45,920
Speaker 2: now I need to sort of talk to some people

1854
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:49,920
Speaker 2: about who might be interested in my services, and maybe

1855
01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:51,560
Speaker 2: I'll find nobody is journalism.

1856
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:53,960
Speaker 1: World has changed, It's not changed. It's sort of morphed

1857
01:30:53,960 --> 01:30:55,960
Speaker 1: and lots of different things. So there could be lots

1858
01:30:55,960 --> 01:30:58,519
Speaker 1: of exciting sort of opportunity for someone like you, because

1859
01:30:58,560 --> 01:31:00,200
Speaker 1: I think people still want to listen to you and

1860
01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:04,960
Speaker 1: or read you so to speak. YEA, When I say lint,

1861
01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:08,400
Speaker 1: I mean read what you've got to say, perhaps even

1862
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:12,960
Speaker 1: listen to you, like verbalize something over a microphone. So

1863
01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:15,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I know because some people when they launch

1864
01:31:15,240 --> 01:31:17,840
Speaker 1: a book, we know it, you know, I know it.

1865
01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:20,880
Speaker 1: They're sort of an effectively without saying announcing a new

1866
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:24,920
Speaker 1: career or a new business venture or something. And because

1867
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:27,400
Speaker 1: you know the PR people, they say, do a book,

1868
01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:30,880
Speaker 1: establish yourself in the marketplace. So do a book. And

1869
01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:33,800
Speaker 1: I wonder when I when I found out you're writing

1870
01:31:33,840 --> 01:31:36,479
Speaker 1: the book? Though I won I've Joe's got something. He's

1871
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:38,400
Speaker 1: trying to do this as a precursor to what he

1872
01:31:38,400 --> 01:31:39,320
Speaker 1: wants to do in the future.

1873
01:31:39,840 --> 01:31:42,240
Speaker 2: Or is this only because I don't have it figured

1874
01:31:42,280 --> 01:31:45,360
Speaker 2: out exactly? But I didn't speak to any PR people

1875
01:31:45,360 --> 01:31:47,040
Speaker 2: about writing the book. I just did it because it

1876
01:31:47,080 --> 01:31:49,599
Speaker 2: was the subject that I felt really passionate about and

1877
01:31:49,680 --> 01:31:52,439
Speaker 2: I had command of, and I felt, you know, this

1878
01:31:52,520 --> 01:31:54,160
Speaker 2: is my big opportunity to I've always wanted to be

1879
01:31:54,200 --> 01:31:55,720
Speaker 2: an author. You know, I can tick that box and

1880
01:31:55,800 --> 01:31:58,680
Speaker 2: see how I go. And that was a rewarding experience.

1881
01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:01,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, it wasn't sort of some strategy to

1882
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:08,080
Speaker 2: pump like surprise, big reveal, but I mean eventually I'll

1883
01:32:08,120 --> 01:32:10,040
Speaker 2: hopefully have a big reveal, but I don't have it

1884
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:13,240
Speaker 2: right now. Unfortunately, it's only Joe, so good to have

1885
01:32:13,320 --> 01:32:14,080
Speaker 2: you mate. Thanks man.

1886
01:32:14,640 --> 01:32:17,160
Speaker 1: It's a great read. Here it is, go get it,

1887
01:32:17,320 --> 01:32:19,439
Speaker 1: and it's on the front page of every newspaper for

1888
01:32:19,439 --> 01:32:22,520
Speaker 1: the last week and a half, so you better read it.

1889
01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:23,759
Speaker 2: Jeff