Speaker 1: I get a Bobby, how are you, bro?
Speaker 2: Greg? Go what's going on?
Speaker 1: I'm going good. I'm going good. You were just telling
Speaker 1: me an interesting story. Hi everyone, by the way, welcome
Speaker 1: to the You project. Bobby, say hi to everyone? Would
Speaker 1: you do they get needy?
Speaker 2: Hello?
Speaker 1: Everyone? Hey, I want you to repeat that. I hate
Speaker 1: it when people do this to me. You know, when
Speaker 1: you tell someone a story, then someone comes up, can
Speaker 1: you tell that story again? But that's exactly what I'm
Speaker 1: going to do, because it's a really interesting insight into
Speaker 1: perception and the way that we think and the way
Speaker 1: that we believe, and the way that our mind is
Speaker 1: influenced by situation, circumstance, environment, other people. But yeah, so
Speaker 1: if you would share that story about I think it's
Speaker 1: Bartholomew Coulson, that famous British bloke.
Speaker 2: Ah, the hero of the common man. Yes, yes, both
Speaker 2: Olimwew Colson. So when I was consulting for a measure
Speaker 2: health club chain, I'm like to mention any names. Let's
Speaker 2: just leave names out of this. But it was a
Speaker 2: major health club chain in the United Kingdom in the EU,
Speaker 2: I was up late one night before presentation with a
Speaker 2: couple of my colleagues and we were at the pub,
Speaker 2: so we were in good spirits and feeling highly creative
Speaker 2: and I don't know how the conversation got there, but
Speaker 2: we were talking about how unreliable eyewitness testimony is and
Speaker 2: when you have gaps in your member, you can, through
Speaker 2: the power of suggestion, creatively fill those gaps. So we
Speaker 2: decided right there in the pub that we were going
Speaker 2: to conduct an experiment. And one of the people that
Speaker 2: we were with was this rough and tumble northern from Huddersfield,
Speaker 2: and so we were kind of hanging shit on him
Speaker 2: and we created a character with his namesake, but we
Speaker 2: called him buff Olomel, so he was buff Olomew Coulson
Speaker 2: and which we just came up the most outrageous stories,
Speaker 2: how where he cut down trees to build houses for
Speaker 2: the poor all by himself, and he raised money by
Speaker 2: swimming the Liverpool Canals pulling a tug boat with his teeth.
Speaker 2: It was just outrageous and we said, okay, So the
Speaker 2: next few sessions that we go into because we always
Speaker 2: had this game that we would play. Whatever we were
Speaker 2: talking about the night before, you had to bring it
Speaker 2: up in the session. But you couldn't just randomly throw
Speaker 2: it out there. It had to make sense within the
Speaker 2: context of the subject matter. So the next day we
Speaker 2: would talk about heroics and taking a stand for your tribe,
Speaker 2: for your company, your member, and we would start to
Speaker 2: talk about like Bartholomew Coulson, for example, and we would
Speaker 2: start to spew out the outrageous nonsense that we came
Speaker 2: up with in the pub, and then at the end
Speaker 2: of that we would ask the question, so, how many
Speaker 2: of you actually remember your parents telling you stories because
Speaker 2: you were probably too young, but your parents probably I'm
Speaker 2: sure someone was told the stories about the exploits of
Speaker 2: the heroic Botholomew Coulson, hero of the working man like clockwork.
Speaker 2: Ten to fifteen percent of the room would look around
Speaker 2: and sheepish start to raise their hand, and they weren't lying.
Speaker 2: They truly believed after hearing this and connecting it to
Speaker 2: their livelihood, their chosen career, something that had deep meaningful value,
Speaker 2: that they had heard this story. Meanwhile, we made this
Speaker 2: guy up. He was a character that we came up
Speaker 2: with that I don't know, one o'clock in the morning
Speaker 2: at the pub.
Speaker 1: Over one hundred beeres it is. It's fascinating, it's fascinating.
Speaker 1: How that set and setting and context and how other
Speaker 1: people are responding or reacting. So I watched this thing
Speaker 1: earlier today about these people who did this social experiment
Speaker 1: I guess you'd call it a social experiment in the States.
Speaker 1: And they set up they set up a fake high
Speaker 1: end European shoe shop in the heart of all of
Speaker 1: these fancy shops. So it was a shoe store and
Speaker 1: they called it. It was called Plessi p l E.
Speaker 1: S I Plessi, And they built this whole story around it,
Speaker 1: and they set up their store and it was fucking beautiful.
Speaker 1: They it looked like someone something from you know, Hollywood
Speaker 1: Boulevard or what's that what's that expensive what's that expensive
Speaker 1: strip where everyone goes.
Speaker 2: To, you know, I jo about in Los Angeles wherever? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: what's it called that? It's Rideo Rideo Drive.
Speaker 1: So they set up this pretend high end store, they
Speaker 1: invite l these influential people. They everything about it is
Speaker 1: real except the shoes. So so Palsi is a pie
Speaker 1: on Payless. So they get all of these pay Less
Speaker 1: shoes and they mark them up between five hundred and
Speaker 1: eighteen hundred percent and they sell out. All of these
Speaker 1: people come in all of these high end people, all
Speaker 1: of these influences, these social media people, these people, these
Speaker 1: all of these IT people come in and they get
Speaker 1: these admittedly they look like nice shoes, but they put
Speaker 1: them in this certain context, on these shells, with the
Speaker 1: right lighting, with the right ambiance, with all the kind
Speaker 1: of accoutrements around the joint. And they sold out and
Speaker 1: they were selling, you know, fifty dollars shoes for nine
Speaker 1: hundred dollars, and they were marching out the store. And
Speaker 1: then once everybody had bought whatever. As people were going out,
Speaker 1: they were, I guess the crew. They were taking them
Speaker 1: to one side and explaining to them what had just happened,
Speaker 1: and they were just bewildered. And also the amount of
Speaker 1: people who were like they were speaking as though like
Speaker 1: people coming out and going, you know, PLESSI is the
Speaker 1: new whatever, you know, the new goalts here, the new whatever,
Speaker 1: and they were just talking as though this this brand
Speaker 1: was the next big thing, and they were they were
Speaker 1: just ride on the bloody bandwagon and it was just
Speaker 1: a complete fiction, but they bought into it straight away.
Speaker 2: How suggestible we are. Robert Childeiniy and his book Influence
Speaker 2: goes over stories like that and experiments they've done. Like,
Speaker 2: what's interesting about that experiment. It's not just how easily
Speaker 2: we're fooled, but how much that type of research is duplicated.
Speaker 2: I mean, there was an advert on TV here in
Speaker 2: the United States. It was like, yeah, people in this
Speaker 2: five star restaurant are unaware that we've replaced their high
Speaker 2: end gourmet coffee with Folgers. Now Folgers isn't the worst
Speaker 2: coffee could drink, but it's not that great. Let's be fair,
Speaker 2: It's instant coffee. And it's like, I'm sure these people
Speaker 2: really appraised it and believe because of the priming and
Speaker 2: the expectancy that they were drinking really great coffee, but
Speaker 2: alas they were drinking just like like kind of bottom
Speaker 2: and stuff. So how much of our impressions of the
Speaker 2: world or our own, and how much of that is
Speaker 2: influenced by things we won't even think about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, And how much even even when it
Speaker 1: comes to I don't know about in the States, I'm
Speaker 1: sure it's similar. But in Australia, now there there are
Speaker 1: we've never had more choice of cars, you know, So
Speaker 1: there's all the you know, there's all the European cars
Speaker 1: and we have a few American cars come in Jeeps
Speaker 1: and the like, Jeep and the like, and you know,
Speaker 1: Italian cars and a lot of Japanese car, lot is
Speaker 1: Korean cars, and of course now an inundation of Chinese cars.
Speaker 1: And it really bothers some people that some of these
Speaker 1: Chinese cars are fucking amazing and and people don't even
Speaker 1: like you saying that, but some of them. So you're
Speaker 1: getting cars that are the equivalent of one hundred, one
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty thousand dollars European car that's got everything
Speaker 1: and more and well built and longer warranty and a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of other things. But people are compelled, not everyone,
Speaker 1: because they're really growing in terms of popularity. But there's
Speaker 1: still are still a group of people. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: You could put the same car in front of them
Speaker 1: and say this is German. They would love it merely
Speaker 1: the fact that they know that it's Chinese. They it's
Speaker 1: not about the car, it's about where they think it
Speaker 1: comes from, you know. And then conversely, you could have
Speaker 1: a you know, you can get a pretty rude, aimentary
Speaker 1: BMW here like not a particularly amazing car, like a
Speaker 1: kind of a lower end, a lower end BMW is
Speaker 1: going to cost eighty grand, like there are no you know,
Speaker 1: and and you can get something in a Japanese or
Speaker 1: Korean or Chinese car for probably about half that price,
Speaker 1: which in terms of you know, function and operation and
Speaker 1: features and build quality is the same for half the price.
Speaker 1: But nonetheless, and we're not saying that there there are
Speaker 1: no differences ever in build quality and that. But you know,
Speaker 1: as someone who's interested in cars and bikes, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated with the story that, like the car that
Speaker 1: I bought not that long ago as a high unde
Speaker 1: and people like, oh my god. Some people, like some
Speaker 1: of my mates are like, what the fuck is wrong
Speaker 1: with you? Why would you buy a high undae? And
Speaker 1: I'm like, is.
Speaker 2: Everything okay with work? Has the business?
Speaker 1: Do you need a loan? You need a loan? And
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's actually an incredible cars. It's fucking amazing,
Speaker 1: you know. And I've had more expensive, fancier cars. That
Speaker 1: particular car is the best car I've ever owned, hands
Speaker 1: down by a million miles. And it's yeah, and it's
Speaker 1: it is interesting that perception around what we think we're
Speaker 1: buying and what we think also others think of what
Speaker 1: we're buying because we care about what others think about
Speaker 1: our shit.
Speaker 2: See that's the thing. Some people really love cars, and
Speaker 2: there's certain types of cars they really love other people.
Speaker 2: It's like, I'm not buying the car for me, I'm
Speaker 2: buying the car for putting it on display and how
Speaker 2: everybody else appraises what I'm driving. Yeah, coming from New
Speaker 2: York City, I can I can honestly say that if
Speaker 2: I was going to buy a new car tomorrow, I
Speaker 2: would not give a shit. I would just want to
Speaker 2: buy something I liked. I don't really care what the
Speaker 2: emblem is. It just so happens at the type of
Speaker 2: cars I really like or not very practical. I mean
Speaker 2: you know that from experience. You talked me out of
Speaker 2: You and Amy, my wife got together and talked me
Speaker 2: out of buying that nineteen seventy three Monty Caller. I
Speaker 2: love that car, but it's like, oh man, that's that's
Speaker 2: just buying probably a headache. If it's not late nineteen
Speaker 2: sixties to early seventies American, Muscile, European even I'm not
Speaker 2: into it, just not into it. Don't care, So I'll
Speaker 2: buy a hard day or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But do you think that this idea or this
Speaker 1: perception thing spills into other areas. Like I've been at
Speaker 1: conferences where there's somebody who in Australia has a big profile.
Speaker 1: They're well known and they've done lots of television or whatever,
Speaker 1: and now they're doing a presentation at a corporate conference
Speaker 1: and getting paid some of them. I'm just going to
Speaker 1: say this because I don't think people realize how much
Speaker 1: some speakers get paid. But I've been at events where
Speaker 1: speakers are being paid twenty and thirty thousand dollars for
Speaker 1: forty five minutes to talk, right, And there are other
Speaker 1: speeds is on the agenda or on the schedule who
Speaker 1: are four thousand dollars, which I admit is still a
Speaker 1: lot of money, but they're better than the person that
Speaker 1: they wheeled in from Channel seven or Channel nine. And
Speaker 1: it's like, oh my god, you're not paying for their
Speaker 1: speaking skills or the quality of the content, or the
Speaker 1: experience that the audience will have at this moment in
Speaker 1: time with this person on stage. You're paying for this
Speaker 1: high profile on the assumption that you will sell more tickets,
Speaker 1: which I understand.
Speaker 2: It's it's all perception. And Brandon Association. You take two products,
Speaker 2: and Robert CHARLDI gone back to him. He was talking
Speaker 2: about this and personal Let's look about personal training, right.
Speaker 2: So if you have two trainers that both communicate really well,
Speaker 2: they're both dynamic, they're great to be around, they know
Speaker 2: their stuff. You know what a lot of trainers never
Speaker 2: got is the fifty dollars an hour trainer would have
Speaker 2: a harder time selling themselves than the eighty hundred dollars
Speaker 2: an hour trainer. H And it's around perception. So one
Speaker 2: of the things that just boggled my mind when I
Speaker 2: first started doing personal training, I think I was like
Speaker 2: thirty Don't ask me how I arrived at this number.
Speaker 2: I was thirty two dollars an hour in the beginning,
Speaker 2: and all I ever got was price objections, just, oh,
Speaker 2: that's too high, that's too odd. Jay's thirty two dollars.
Speaker 2: Thirty two dollars an hour on one of my most
Speaker 2: loyal clients at that time, was like, yeah, you know, Capuccio,
Speaker 2: I really love what you do and I could afford it.
Speaker 2: But for most people, thirty two dollars an hour, that's like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, like one hundred dollars a week almost you're
Speaker 2: gonna you're just pricing yourself out. And once I got
Speaker 2: out of that environment and I stepped into another environment
Speaker 2: where it was quite at the different end, and I
Speaker 2: started raising my prices. The more I raised my prices,
Speaker 2: the less price objections. I got to the point where
Speaker 2: I didn't deal with them. I didn't deal with them
Speaker 2: because one, they hardly ever came up. Number two, if
Speaker 2: they came up, I wasn't bothered. Like, if you could
Speaker 2: find a trainer that that's cheaper, go ahead, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, yes, I do. I do charge more than
Speaker 2: a lot of the other trainers, and there's a reason why.
Speaker 2: But it was hard for me to wrap my head
Speaker 2: around that that perceived value. Like the nine hundred dollars
Speaker 2: pair of pay less shoes. It's like, that's a different
Speaker 2: story because a lot of times when you're paying more
Speaker 2: for a service, there is something behind that. But I
Speaker 2: know me, like I wouldn't identical service if the price
Speaker 2: is too low. I start to get really nervous.
Speaker 1: That is so interesting. What about the opposite side of
Speaker 1: that conversation is because this was my challenge, right I
Speaker 1: I started, We almost started in terms of price. My
Speaker 1: first client I had was a guy called Max, who
Speaker 1: I still see. We're friends, and this was in the
Speaker 1: mid eighties. He's a few years older than me, so
Speaker 1: he's mid sixties now. But he wanted to train three
Speaker 1: days a week, so he was like the Genesis. He
Speaker 1: was like the Adam Right. And so I set one
Speaker 1: hundred bucks for three sessions, which was a rare moment
Speaker 1: of courage on my part because I didn't think I
Speaker 1: was worth it, and straight away he went, Yep, no worries,
Speaker 1: let's start tomorrow. And I felt imposter syndrome because I
Speaker 1: was at that point in time, so nineteen eighty six,
Speaker 1: maybe earning twelve dollars an hour as a gym instructor
Speaker 1: and just stepping into managing the gym that I was
Speaker 1: in for maybe fourteen dollars an hour. But I mean
Speaker 1: the bottom line was, if I had have got twenty
Speaker 1: dollars an hour, I would have thought I was winning.
Speaker 1: And I ended up on thirty three dollars an hour,
Speaker 1: and I thought a couple of I thought, one, I'm
Speaker 1: not worth this. I'm not that good too. Who the
Speaker 1: fuck gets thirty three dollars an hour? This is incomprehensible
Speaker 1: and three. This won't last because you'll figure out I'm
Speaker 1: shit any day now, you know. So for me, it
Speaker 1: was that battle of and I think for our listeners
Speaker 1: who have their own business or service, especially people who
Speaker 1: do offer services, you know, and they are essentially selling
Speaker 1: you know, their time and their skill and their knowledge
Speaker 1: for an hourly rate. What advice do you have for
Speaker 1: people who are there who maybe are better than they
Speaker 1: think and they actually self sabotage their potential earning capacity
Speaker 1: because they don't think they're worth it. Like, how do
Speaker 1: you navigate that?
Speaker 2: I think there's a few things to consider, Like number
Speaker 2: one is what exactly do you charge for? And here's
Speaker 2: the thing, whatever you think you sell, you probably don't. Right,
Speaker 2: That's a great place to start. There's more to it.
Speaker 2: So let's take Ray Kroc McDonald's for example. If you
Speaker 2: ask most people what does McDonald's sell, you know, they
Speaker 2: would fast food. Other people would argue, well, that stuff's
Speaker 2: not actually food. But if you asked Ray Kroc what
Speaker 2: it is that he sold, and like what business was
Speaker 2: he in? Was he in? Yeah, he wouldn't say I'm
Speaker 2: in the fast food business. He said, I'm in real
Speaker 2: estate and distribution. And he understood the nature of the
Speaker 2: business when something changed my childhood, not necessarily in a
Speaker 2: good way, but I was like five years old and
Speaker 2: I remembered that I must have been like five six
Speaker 2: years old. It's one of those early memories. And I
Speaker 2: was sitting in McDonald's and somebody came around and they
Speaker 2: gave me a chicken McNugget. This is when they were
Speaker 2: first coming out, so they were piloting this product. I
Speaker 2: remember I put this sugary, fatty thing in my mouth.
Speaker 2: It's probably a lot worse today, and my brain just
Speaker 2: lit up. I was like, Oh, I want another one
Speaker 2: of those. The day that Chicken McNuggets were released into
Speaker 2: the marketplace, they outsold Tyson Chicken, Kentucky Fried Chicken Purdue
Speaker 2: because they dropped it in a distribution machine and it
Speaker 2: periferated like wildfire. Had it not been for that distribution
Speaker 2: machine and understanding what his business actually was, McDonald's wouldn't
Speaker 2: be able to have that one billion served, like two
Speaker 2: million murdered, like all that stuff that they're like really
Speaker 2: proud of. So what exactly do you sell? And it's
Speaker 2: not personal training, Like what is it about your knowledge resources,
Speaker 2: your personality, type, your engagement that really creates value for someone.
Speaker 2: So maybe you sell removing the guesswork out of getting
Speaker 2: the most amount of results in the least amount of time.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's that you have a keen eye because you
Speaker 2: do nothing but study joint motion. You study biomechanics every
Speaker 2: single day, and you could take a look at things
Speaker 2: that most people can't even notice and make a tweak
Speaker 2: and either save someone an injury in six months to
Speaker 2: a year, or you could tweak an exercise to move
Speaker 2: them further and faster than anybody else. Maybe it's your
Speaker 2: ability to build a level of confidence and self efficacy
Speaker 2: by understanding microprogressions and communicating microwinds to somebody, and the
Speaker 2: way you communicate with them, that level of self efficacy
Speaker 2: allows them to take on more responsibility for themselves, whether
Speaker 2: it's outside of the gym, Like what are they doing
Speaker 2: the other twenty three hours of the day that you're
Speaker 2: not with them? What about all the other domain stress management?
Speaker 2: What about their sense of purpose, sleep, dietary habits. So
Speaker 2: what is it that you do not better but differently
Speaker 2: than anyone else that cannot readily be duplicated. I think
Speaker 2: that's an important question to ask another question is like,
Speaker 2: two years from now, what do you want to be
Speaker 2: peerlessen Like, if you could somehow evaluate this stat what
Speaker 2: would put you in the top twenty percent of everyone
Speaker 2: working within your position today and make that decision, because
Speaker 2: in the second you make that decision, it's a little
Speaker 2: bit different than a car cards appreciates some value the
Speaker 2: second you drive it off the lot. It's not an
Speaker 2: investment in any way, shape or form. If you make
Speaker 2: that concrete decision, what am I going to be among
Speaker 2: the top twenty percent of all professionals working in my
Speaker 2: same job role? And what's required to me daily? You're
Speaker 2: an appreciation you are an appreciating purchase. You're gonna be
Speaker 2: worth a lot more to that person three six months,
Speaker 2: a year from now. But you have to establish what
Speaker 2: it is that you do differently, because it's like, well,
Speaker 2: I know functional anatomy. Every trainer should know functional anatomy.
Speaker 2: You know, well, I understand cadesiology. I understand what happens
Speaker 2: when you impose load, what happens on the systems biomechanics.
Speaker 2: Every trainer should understand that what do you do differently?
Speaker 2: And then you are not your client like your your
Speaker 2: insecurities in your inner dialogue doesn't have to be put
Speaker 2: on them like you would come into work and unload
Speaker 2: all the problems and the arguments you had with your
Speaker 2: partner on your client. I mean, most trainers shouldn't. Some
Speaker 2: trainers would, but you wouldn't do that. So why are
Speaker 2: you unloading all of your inner baggage by imposing it
Speaker 2: on them that they're making The appraisal of quality is
Speaker 2: onlyquality in value when the client says it's value. Your
Speaker 2: job is to put in as much effort and conscientiousness
Speaker 2: to constantly raise that potential for perceived value. But you're
Speaker 2: not the one who appraises that. That's none of your
Speaker 2: business and that's irresponsible. Start by asking, just confidently, ask
Speaker 2: for the sale. After you practice communicating what it is
Speaker 2: you do and why there is a distinct value in
Speaker 2: what you do, and then ask.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess there's a big I used to have
Speaker 1: this semi regular experience at my gym on the highway,
Speaker 1: the big one. Did you ever come to that one
Speaker 1: on the plan Highway hoppers, the big One? Did you
Speaker 1: come up there?
Speaker 2: No? I don't think I was up there?
Speaker 1: Yeah right, okay, so pled to me, Yeah, well, I
Speaker 1: think you're in a different country at the time. But
Speaker 1: that was I mean, that was a massive training space.
Speaker 1: That was the biggest petaste studio probably in the world,
Speaker 1: definitely in the Southern hemisphere. So ten thousand square feet
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. But and so I had lots of
Speaker 1: trainers at a given time, like it, I would have,
Speaker 1: you know, thirty trainers working under my banner at any
Speaker 1: given time, not necessarily all on the floor. But one
Speaker 1: of the regular conversations I had with people was because
Speaker 1: most of the trainers were charged out at pretty much
Speaker 1: the same rate, which back in the day it was
Speaker 1: about sixty bucks an hour, and then it would be
Speaker 1: that's one on one and deer for two and three,
Speaker 1: and there was a few variables. But every now and
Speaker 1: then i'd have a trainer come up to me, which
Speaker 1: was I kind of admired, but also we had to
Speaker 1: open the door and have a conversation, and that'd say,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm worth one hundred dollars an hour, so
Speaker 1: I want to charge one hundred dollars an hour. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, and I don't want to discourage them, but
Speaker 1: like you were saying, really what you're worth per hour
Speaker 1: is really determined in the short term by what people
Speaker 1: are prepared to pay for you. Like if if I go,
Speaker 1: I'm worth twenty six thousand dollars an hour as a
Speaker 1: corporate speaker, but no one will ever pay me that. Well,
Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying. It's like I'm not
Speaker 1: worth that or I can't get that. Maybe in some
Speaker 1: other context or with more skills or in a different situation,
Speaker 1: but for where I am right now, And so there
Speaker 1: is that idea that I think I'm worth two x,
Speaker 1: but people will only pay one x. So other than
Speaker 1: other than improving knowledge and skills and competence and all
Speaker 1: of those variables that are somewhat within our control, how
Speaker 1: do we influence people or is this even a good question,
Speaker 1: but how do we influence the potential market from the
Speaker 1: outside looking in that we might be worth two x
Speaker 1: per hour or three or ten x per hour?
Speaker 2: Well, I think demonstration beats conversation. And you know, I've
Speaker 2: been outside of the health club world for years, so
Speaker 2: this probably isn't even relevant the way that they structure
Speaker 2: training shifts. But here's an example from when I would
Speaker 2: develop teams lead teams, and I would do this myself
Speaker 2: all the way up until the last day I was
Speaker 2: ever in the clubs because I felt like you have
Speaker 2: to be connected to it to really explain it. If
Speaker 2: a trainer's out on the floor, if you are studying
Speaker 2: and applying and making mistakes and correcting those mistakes, hopefully
Speaker 2: not with your clients, and you're getting better and better
Speaker 2: and better at the application. If you're walking the floor
Speaker 2: and somebody's doing an exercise, let's say a lot pull down,
Speaker 2: and you could utilize your understanding of appraising movement, taking
Speaker 2: that appraisal, making tweaks and communicating to the client on
Speaker 2: a multi century level and verbal level how to execut
Speaker 2: you based on what you're seeing, and you can get
Speaker 2: that person to have a completely different experience with an
Speaker 2: exercise that they've done I don't know, one hundred times,
Speaker 2: maybe more. Maybe even they've felt their lats in a
Speaker 2: way that they have never ever felt them engaged in
Speaker 2: that same exact exercise.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a.
Speaker 2: Completely different level of influence you have because you're not
Speaker 2: trying to persuade. You've demonstrated yes, and you know there
Speaker 2: is It's almost like one of the things that I
Speaker 2: have not trained trainers in sales, but in since twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2: But let's go back to that. Here's where coaching comes in, right,
Speaker 2: And one of the principles, there's always a principle from
Speaker 2: which practices follow. And one of the principles that has
Speaker 2: helped so many trainers and I think salespeople overall is
Speaker 2: the paradox of being completely invested and completely unattached at
Speaker 2: the same time. Here's what I mean. If you come
Speaker 2: up to me and you have a question or I
Speaker 2: don't know, we're in an orientation induction, it's a sale session,
Speaker 2: let's call it what it is. I am absolutely invested
Speaker 2: in hearing you. I am completely invested in your experience.
Speaker 2: I'm invested in the outcomes that you produce for yourself,
Speaker 2: whether it's with me or somebody else. But I am
Speaker 2: completely unattached at the moment whether or not you buy
Speaker 2: something from me, because I think that's where trainers and
Speaker 2: salespeople in general start to choke, like I need this,
Speaker 2: I need to make this sale. First of all, you're
Speaker 2: not focused on the client. You're in your own head.
Speaker 2: Once you're come from a place of need, You've got
Speaker 2: two dialogues. The one that you're having with a potential
Speaker 2: client and the one that's in your head and you
Speaker 2: don't realize it, but your anxiety is leaking out of you.
Speaker 2: I used to work with this guy. I used to
Speaker 2: apprentice under him. He's one of these like motivational speakers
Speaker 2: and sales trainers and a lot of the domains. This
Speaker 2: guy was very good, and I thought he was I
Speaker 2: thought he was a completely tosspot, like the first mentorship
Speaker 2: that I went to, because he's sitting there and somebody
Speaker 2: would raise their hand and go, well, what about the objection?
Speaker 2: And these were people from free enterprise, from all different
Speaker 2: types of industries, selling all different types of products and services.
Speaker 2: Well what about when somebody says, well, I got to
Speaker 2: think about it, what do you do? And this guy
Speaker 2: would flippantly look at them and go, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't get that objection. Next and somebody well, well
Speaker 2: what about the money objection? And he would go, I
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't get that objection. Next question, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, what the hell are we paying for here?
Speaker 2: You're not even answering any of the questions. You'd be
Speaker 2: a kind of a knock. Well, later on in the summer,
Speaker 2: he explained why he was doing that. He said, think
Speaker 2: about the objection that you're most terrified of handling. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I guarantee you that's where you get the most objections,
Speaker 2: because as soon as you get to the point and
Speaker 2: the presentation where that objection usually comes up, you get
Speaker 2: fucking weird. Yes, And it's almost like your energy makes
Speaker 2: that person very uncomfortable. Because how many of you sell
Speaker 2: products and how many of you sell services, and the
Speaker 2: difference between that is, if you're selling a product like
Speaker 2: I'm selling this coffee cup, I don't need to tell
Speaker 2: you much about it. If you pick it up. It's
Speaker 2: designed well, knock on it pretty sturdy. Jeez, I love
Speaker 2: this cup. It speaks for itself. If you're selling services,
Speaker 2: which most people selling anything today are, you're selling something
Speaker 2: that does not yet exis. You're selling a promise. So
Speaker 2: there's no separating the feeling and the emotional connection and
Speaker 2: the safety they have with you and what it is
Speaker 2: that they're making a decision on buying. So if you
Speaker 2: get weird every time that objection comes up, yeah, you're
Speaker 2: going to have a problem. So if you are completely
Speaker 2: unattached but completely invested, you're going to speak to somebody
Speaker 2: the way you would speak to your best mate who
Speaker 2: you really cared about, if they had the same exact problem,
Speaker 2: but for whatever reason, they couldn't buy from you, so
Speaker 2: a yes or no would be irrelevant, but you would
Speaker 2: approach them with inquiry, curiosity, compassion, and care. So when
Speaker 2: you apply coaching skills in a sales situation, I think
Speaker 2: you're positioning yourself and your client in a much better
Speaker 2: situation because you're going to have calm, You're going to
Speaker 2: be more fluid, you're going to be more persuasive. You're
Speaker 2: not going to nearly create the level of agitation that
Speaker 2: a lot of salespeople create, and whether you get a
Speaker 2: yes or no, you're not going to be deflated. So
Speaker 2: the next person who comes in, you're actually more insecure,
Speaker 2: you're more desperate. I mean, think about this. Two twins
Speaker 2: are living in the same city. They don't really hang
Speaker 2: out much together, so I'm saying twins. They're identical twins,
Speaker 2: so we could rule out physical appearance, and they both
Speaker 2: decide in the same night they're going to go out
Speaker 2: on their own. One guy walks into a bar, looks
Speaker 2: around and says, I wonder who's interested in me? The
Speaker 2: other twin Crosstown walks into a bar, takes a look
Speaker 2: around and says, I wonder who I'm really attracted to?
Speaker 2: Who am I interested in? Which one of those twins
Speaker 2: is going to go home deflated, crying themselves into a
Speaker 2: pint of hogandas ice cream from the mass rejection to it.
Speaker 2: No matter what the outcome is, he'll be fine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, me, I'm the one who's yeah, yeah, the one
Speaker 1: who's gone, who's interested in me?
Speaker 2: Hey over here here.
Speaker 1: I am no, yeah, I know what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is I used to.
Speaker 1: And this wasn't a particularly intentional strategy, Bobby. But when
Speaker 1: people would come to my big gym on the Highway,
Speaker 1: which was all people would probably fifty percent of people
Speaker 1: didn't know exactly what they were walking into because it
Speaker 1: was set up like a commercial gym. So most people,
Speaker 1: or many people initially anyway, would think they're coming into
Speaker 1: a place where you buy a membership in a place
Speaker 1: where there are no memberships, and you get a group
Speaker 1: exercise timetable in a place where there's no group exercise,
Speaker 1: and you you know, this whole myriad of assumptions because
Speaker 1: when you walk in it, there's you know, ten square
Speaker 1: feet of gym equipment and treadmills and bikes and boxing
Speaker 1: rings and like shit everywhere it's amazing. But then people would,
Speaker 1: you know, I'd talk to people and I never and
Speaker 1: I think it was because I lacked confidence, or I
Speaker 1: was embarrassed or insecure, or a mix of all of that.
Speaker 1: But I never tried to sell anyone overtly. I would talk
Speaker 1: to them about what we do and why we do
Speaker 1: it and how we do it, and I would talk
Speaker 1: about I would even say, look, we're probably not for
Speaker 1: sixty or seventy percent of the people who want to,
Speaker 1: you know, go to a gym in inverted commas, We're
Speaker 1: probably not for them. But I would always mention, I'd say, look,
Speaker 1: people who come here generally not elite athletes. That's everyone
Speaker 1: who walks into the gym right by the way, that
Speaker 1: they're not an elite athlete. Typically people who struggle, people
Speaker 1: who want to do it, but struggle to stay consistent
Speaker 1: and perhaps inspired and motivated. And so we work with
Speaker 1: the general public, and it's you know, it's not just
Speaker 1: about dumbells and bar bells. It's about but let's talk
Speaker 1: about sleep, let's talk about exercise, let's talk about nutrition,
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what's going on in your head. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about what you did and didn't do for the
Speaker 1: last ten years. And by the time I would just
Speaker 1: talk to them like I didn't talk about prices. I
Speaker 1: didn't talk about how often they should come. I didn't
Speaker 1: talk about contracts. I didn't talk about cancelation policy. I
Speaker 1: didn't do any business stuff. I just told a story
Speaker 1: about the people that trained there, and I knew most
Speaker 1: people would see themselves in that story. And also i'd say,
Speaker 1: by the way, if you come and do a session
Speaker 1: and you think it sucks, that's your first and last session,
Speaker 1: and we'll give your money back, so you literally here,
Speaker 1: you can't lose. So if you think no, it's not
Speaker 1: for me, great, I'll give you money back and then
Speaker 1: you keep moving on. But even if you think it's great,
Speaker 1: there's no contract. We don't do contracts. So you might
Speaker 1: do a session ten sessions, or you might do ten years.
Speaker 1: But and people love the fact that there was no
Speaker 1: overt emotional or psychological leverage. You know, it was not
Speaker 1: like yeah, but you know, like but just this week,
Speaker 1: we've got a deal and so that but that runs
Speaker 1: out Wednesday night. Right now, it's Monday, so you got
Speaker 1: forty eight hours, but it's normally three x, but until
Speaker 1: Wednesday it's one x. And also no joining feasts. So
Speaker 1: and by the way, and by the Ossie's a very
Speaker 1: fucking averse to that, you know.
Speaker 2: So I think everyone's refers to that. I know very
Speaker 2: few people like I love that experience. God, you know,
Speaker 2: but how is it?
Speaker 1: How common is it?
Speaker 2: Though?
Speaker 1: But what I think many people.
Speaker 2: It might have worked for somebody in like nineteen forty eight,
Speaker 2: and they just like double down on it. Sales a
Speaker 2: lot of times, does not you, I mean sales training
Speaker 2: and tactics. A lot of times it's not data driven,
Speaker 2: it's not based on empirical evidence, and it's based on well,
Speaker 2: you know, Rob's a great sales guy. Let's just do
Speaker 2: what Rob does. I follow Rob's script, and it's like, well,
Speaker 2: there are certain practices like how I go out and
Speaker 2: how I prospect, you know, how I set up an
Speaker 2: info call, how I structure a presentation. So there's a
Speaker 2: lot that's not wrong with that at all. However, on
Speaker 2: the other hand, there's tactics that don't duplicate. And let's
Speaker 2: be honest, we might not know why Rob is so good.
Speaker 2: It could be the level of empathy or the tone
Speaker 2: that he speaks at. It could be something about him
Speaker 2: that's comforting. And then I go and I apply all
Speaker 2: those same shitty tactics and I really haven't had the
Speaker 2: elements to the time to deconstruct exactly why does rob
Speaker 2: have such a high closing ratio? And I turn people off.
Speaker 2: I've never heard anybody say, well, I was going to
Speaker 2: buy this product, but the salesperson didn't use didn't use
Speaker 2: cheesy sales tactics, and didn't pressure me and make me
Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable enough, And I was like, I don't want
Speaker 2: to do business with a guy like that. It's just
Speaker 2: asking for the sale. I think is a responsibility if
Speaker 2: you truly believe in what it is that you're selling.
Speaker 2: On the other hand, like what you're doing is guiding
Speaker 2: someone to a decision, and the more you try to
Speaker 2: force that decision, the more you're going to do things
Speaker 2: to bring it about. Harvard Business Review conducted a study
Speaker 2: on what gets in the way of closing sales, and
Speaker 2: they found that sixty three percent of salespeople bring about
Speaker 2: the outcome that they want the least by their own
Speaker 2: attitudes and behaviors, wow, because they double down on shit
Speaker 2: and they never stop to go, hey, maybe it's me.
Speaker 2: Maybe there's something in my approach that's not exactly working. So,
Speaker 2: again not mentioning any names, I worked with a major
Speaker 2: health club chain and they were looking to drive first
Speaker 2: visit enrollment. And what they meant by that was, when
Speaker 2: you come into the facility on day one, it's your
Speaker 2: first visit, what percentage of people in their very first
Speaker 2: visit to the gym are going to buy a membership?
Speaker 2: And they wanted to get that number just above forty percent, right,
Speaker 2: So that was that was a hard endeavor. So after
Speaker 2: many months, they went out and they hired a consulting firm.
Speaker 2: The consulting firm did a brilliant job at analyzing every
Speaker 2: aspect of their systems and their client experience and engagement.
Speaker 2: And they came back and said, look, the reason why
Speaker 2: you're having trouble closing the sale is because you're so
Speaker 2: absolutely single mindedly focused on closing the sale. When people
Speaker 2: come into your gym's, your clubs, they had a shit
Speaker 2: experience and it makes them hate you. So we would
Speaker 2: focus more on service and the experience and a little
Speaker 2: bit less on closing the sale. So like they fired
Speaker 2: that company because that was not what they wanted to hear.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're if you're paying someone seven figures,
Speaker 2: I would imagine you're not paying that much money to
Speaker 2: hear exactly what you want to hear. Paradi back to you.
Speaker 2: That's a waste of money. But that's kind of the attitude.
Speaker 1: And also when clearly, when clearly what you're doing isn't working,
Speaker 1: ergo bringing in the external consultants to figure out what well,
Speaker 1: like self admitted you're what you're doing doesn't work, and
Speaker 1: here's based on all our research and observation and interaction,
Speaker 1: here's what's going on. And then that's that's that old
Speaker 1: You know, people want feedback till they get feedback that
Speaker 1: I want.
Speaker 2: Well, here's a question you'll love for every salesperson. What
Speaker 2: is the experience of you from the perspective of your
Speaker 2: potential client. Yeah, not not from your sales manager, not
Speaker 2: from your person option, what is it? What is the
Speaker 2: client journey like step by step operationally and experientially. That's
Speaker 2: a really good question. Ask. What I love about your
Speaker 2: presentation is you put the person at ease to have
Speaker 2: an open conversation that's going to lead to either a
Speaker 2: yes or a no, But by the time they leave there,
Speaker 2: it's going to facilitate a decision. And you factored in
Speaker 2: all the things that people are so anxious about when
Speaker 2: they take what for a lot of people is the
Speaker 2: most terrifying walk from the car to the front door
Speaker 2: that they have ever taken, and all the things that
Speaker 2: they're scared shitless about. You completely nullify that within thirty
Speaker 2: seconds of walking into your gym, which is why one
Speaker 2: of the reasons why you were probably so successful speaking
Speaker 2: to humans like humans.
Speaker 1: Another thing that we did, and I not all of
Speaker 1: my trainers sold, but we had a bunch of people that,
Speaker 1: you know, whoever happened to be on the gym floor,
Speaker 1: Like we had a gym manager and all of that.
Speaker 1: But sometimes people would be busy, so Bobby's on the
Speaker 1: floor and Bobby has to chat to somebody who's walked in,
Speaker 1: and so Bobby I would tell them whether or not
Speaker 1: they decide to train with us or not have the
Speaker 1: same positivity and energy. And I don't know how many times,
Speaker 1: but I would think more than a hundred times I
Speaker 1: said to somebody who didn't who figured out this is
Speaker 1: not really for me. I probably want to join a
Speaker 1: gym and do my own thing. I would say, great,
Speaker 1: tell me what area you live in and they'd say, oh,
Speaker 1: I live in Bentley, or I live in Sandringham or wherever,
Speaker 1: and then I would direct them to a gym and
Speaker 1: to a person at that gym that I knew. I'd go, Okay,
Speaker 1: go see this dude right, say that you spoke to me.
Speaker 1: Tell them what you told me, Tell them what you want.
Speaker 1: He's a ripper. Tell him I said, he's great. So
Speaker 1: I would send them to a competitor happily right, And
Speaker 1: they're like, what the fuck is this this guy is.
Speaker 1: He's not getting my money, He's not getting a sale.
Speaker 1: I'm not joining the gym. I'm not wise. And you
Speaker 1: would just and I know that sounds strategic and it
Speaker 1: is a little bit, but it's also genuine. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: let's just help them anyway, right, And I would say
Speaker 1: somewhere between twenty and thirty percent of the time. I'd
Speaker 1: like to lie and say it was more, but twenty
Speaker 1: thirty percent of the time, those people would come back
Speaker 1: and go, yeah, I did that, but it I just
Speaker 1: I don't know. I really enjoyed coming up here, and
Speaker 1: I think I'll give this a go because they had
Speaker 1: such a good experience not buying our product.
Speaker 2: Transparency, genuine, meaningful connection and trust. Like when I was
Speaker 2: coming up in the fitness industry, you know, my sales
Speaker 2: training was it was hilarious. And you know, we had
Speaker 2: a saying, and I'm sure you heard it, be backs
Speaker 2: or bullshit. If you think someone's going to leave the gym,
Speaker 2: you got it to a t O. And you know
Speaker 2: what a t is. It's a takeover. It's where you
Speaker 2: know this person's not going to make a buying decision
Speaker 2: with you. So what you do is you bring in
Speaker 2: another season salesperson or you bring in your sales manager
Speaker 2: and then the two of you double team this person
Speaker 2: and pressure them to the point of either purchase or
Speaker 2: tears without letting them leave the gym. Yeah, that is
Speaker 2: what creates the reputation that drives people to being so
Speaker 2: defensive in the first place. So we used to hear
Speaker 2: all the time, but well, like, how do you even
Speaker 2: greet somebody at the front door, because they would walk
Speaker 2: up with well, welcome, you know, welcome to x y
Speaker 2: Z Jim. How'd you hear about us, what brings you
Speaker 2: in today? And it's like, listen, I don't have time.
Speaker 2: I have like three minutes. I just want the prices
Speaker 2: I want to get. It's like why, like you can't
Speaker 2: even say anything to someone. Well, it's not because the
Speaker 2: person walking into the gym knows I'm going to go
Speaker 2: in the gym. I want to look around. I only
Speaker 2: legitimately have thirty seconds. That's not the time they're going
Speaker 2: to choose to go shop gyms. You're creating that because
Speaker 2: of the reputation the industry has built from those bullshit practices.
Speaker 2: And what's really insidious about that is there's so many
Speaker 2: gyms that you walk into and you're going to get
Speaker 2: something like the experience you created for your people, Craig,
Speaker 2: but the reputation casts a shadow on clubs that you
Speaker 2: probably should join. I mean what turned me around was
Speaker 2: working at David Barton. I started working with David Barton
Speaker 2: as his head of training in nineteen ninety eight, just
Speaker 2: dating myself a little bit, and that was a university
Speaker 2: degree in gym one oh one. Learned so many things
Speaker 2: about attention to detail and experience that served me the
Speaker 2: rest of my career.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing. Hey mate, we've got to go. I
Speaker 1: love chatting with you. Where can people connect with you?
Speaker 2: Robert Capuccio dot com or the self up antidote dot
Speaker 2: com or link or here? Oh here here? Yeah, pop in?
Speaker 2: We should we should do calls?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we should try and do that. No, we
Speaker 1: should actually do I wonder how that would Yeah, let
Speaker 1: me talk about that. I wouldn't mind.
Speaker 2: Tiffany, is that you pranking us again? Please get off
Speaker 2: the line.
Speaker 1: For Melissa, one of the two women that are smarter
Speaker 1: than us. Too befits to figure that out. We'll say
Speaker 1: goodbye a fair but thanks again, buddy.
Speaker 2: Bye, everyone,