1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appoche production. 2 00:00:14,081 --> 00:00:16,441 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shanned. I'm your host, 3 00:00:16,521 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: Adam Shan Let's talk about tases. In May twenty twenty three, 4 00:00:21,401 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: ninety five year old Claire Allen died after being tasered 5 00:00:24,321 --> 00:00:27,041 Speaker 2: by New South Wales police officer Christian White. 6 00:00:27,521 --> 00:00:31,881 Speaker 3: The great grandmother died overnight one week after allegedly being 7 00:00:32,001 --> 00:00:35,441 Speaker 3: tasered at her nursing home in Cooma, south of Canbero. 8 00:00:36,481 --> 00:00:39,921 Speaker 2: White was charged and found guilty of manslaughter, be the 9 00:00:39,961 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 2: avoided jail, being sentenced to a two year community corrections order. 10 00:00:43,161 --> 00:00:45,001 Speaker 2: There was a fair bit of public outrage about that 11 00:00:45,921 --> 00:00:48,641 Speaker 2: and it sort of brought tases back into the public 12 00:00:48,721 --> 00:00:52,361 Speaker 2: debate again. Tayses have been around for thirty years. You 13 00:00:52,441 --> 00:00:56,161 Speaker 2: could say that they've saved maybe three hundred thousand plus 14 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,601 Speaker 2: lives from death or serious bodily injury in situations where 15 00:00:59,641 --> 00:01:03,881 Speaker 2: the lethal force would have been justified. Yet still, when 16 00:01:03,881 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: you ask artificial and intelligence whether tases are safe, I 17 00:01:08,241 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: will tell you that there's still no consensus. Tases are 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: generally considered less lethal and safe when used correctly, but 19 00:01:16,241 --> 00:01:19,361 Speaker 2: they still carry risks, especially for vulnerable people or in 20 00:01:19,441 --> 00:01:23,681 Speaker 2: high stress situations. Some studies suggest that the taser can 21 00:01:23,721 --> 00:01:28,761 Speaker 2: directly pace the heart into a ventricular fibrillation. Now North America, 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,961 Speaker 2: there have apparently been over four hundred and forty deaths 23 00:01:32,121 --> 00:01:35,801 Speaker 2: where tases have been used, but the people have died afterwards. 24 00:01:36,441 --> 00:01:39,401 Speaker 3: Police purpose bray and taser ninety two year old amputee 25 00:01:39,681 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 3: who died three weeks after assault at care home. 26 00:01:44,081 --> 00:01:46,721 Speaker 2: George Hateley was a Special Operations Group police officer in 27 00:01:46,801 --> 00:01:50,761 Speaker 2: Victoria and was involved in lethal confrontations with firearms during 28 00:01:50,761 --> 00:01:55,041 Speaker 2: his service. After leaving the force, George introduced the taser 29 00:01:55,161 --> 00:01:58,121 Speaker 2: to Australia. And he's my guest today. Get a George. 30 00:01:58,481 --> 00:02:00,001 Speaker 1: Hey, glad to be here. 31 00:02:01,161 --> 00:02:05,521 Speaker 2: The controversy over tases continues. Your experience is very different. 32 00:02:05,601 --> 00:02:06,401 Speaker 2: Are they safe? 33 00:02:06,961 --> 00:02:09,961 Speaker 3: They're safe as anything. It's safer than most things that 34 00:02:10,001 --> 00:02:12,321 Speaker 3: police that carry on their belt or on their best 35 00:02:13,081 --> 00:02:15,441 Speaker 3: They're extremely safe. And I can back that up with 36 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,681 Speaker 3: medical and scientific and my experience over twenty five years 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:20,321 Speaker 3: with taser. 38 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,201 Speaker 2: And yet AI still says there's no consensus. But what 39 00:02:24,321 --> 00:02:24,841 Speaker 2: is AI know? 40 00:02:25,441 --> 00:02:28,241 Speaker 3: AI doesn't know the true facts and details that I know. 41 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,601 Speaker 3: And I can strongly say that they are safe, and 42 00:02:33,161 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 3: I'd argue with AI any day. About that, and AI 43 00:02:35,921 --> 00:02:38,441 Speaker 3: is dependent on what information you put into it, and 44 00:02:38,481 --> 00:02:41,721 Speaker 3: I've got information that would improve its intelligence. 45 00:02:42,201 --> 00:02:45,321 Speaker 2: Because in the case of clear Nyland, to me, that 46 00:02:45,561 --> 00:02:48,721 Speaker 2: was not the taser. That was just poor police practice. 47 00:02:49,121 --> 00:02:52,601 Speaker 2: Yet taser gets mentioned every time. Can we go through 48 00:02:52,601 --> 00:02:55,041 Speaker 2: that instance and just work out what went wrong? And 49 00:02:55,041 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: that's such. It was five am, for instance, he was 50 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:58,681 Speaker 2: at the end of his shift. They were asked to 51 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,161 Speaker 2: come back again to deal with Claire, who was walking 52 00:03:01,201 --> 00:03:05,121 Speaker 2: around the corridors of the nursing home brandishing a steak knife. 53 00:03:05,201 --> 00:03:06,881 Speaker 2: I don't think it should ever have been used. 54 00:03:07,401 --> 00:03:11,681 Speaker 3: No, it's like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut, 55 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,721 Speaker 3: way over the top. I think, you know, everyone would 56 00:03:16,321 --> 00:03:20,601 Speaker 3: agree with me to say that was unnecessary, unacceptable in 57 00:03:20,641 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 3: a tragic situation. 58 00:03:22,361 --> 00:03:23,241 Speaker 1: Shouldn't have happened. 59 00:03:23,601 --> 00:03:25,281 Speaker 3: I could have thrown a bucket of water on her 60 00:03:25,361 --> 00:03:27,921 Speaker 3: or grail that I would have had this better effect 61 00:03:28,121 --> 00:03:30,121 Speaker 3: than what she was exposed to. 62 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: It was a horrible thing. 63 00:03:32,121 --> 00:03:35,441 Speaker 2: Because let's explain what a taser actually is. 64 00:03:36,761 --> 00:03:40,801 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an electric emission device. And when I say that, 65 00:03:40,841 --> 00:03:45,841 Speaker 3: it's operated by a battery, and basically I'll talk in 66 00:03:45,921 --> 00:03:51,241 Speaker 3: layman's terms. It takes about ten amps to kill someone. 67 00:03:51,521 --> 00:03:53,201 Speaker 3: You know, if you stick your finger in a two 68 00:03:53,241 --> 00:03:57,841 Speaker 3: forty volt PowerPoint, you could get electrocuted, and the ampswer kill. 69 00:03:57,841 --> 00:03:59,041 Speaker 1: It's not the voltage. 70 00:03:59,161 --> 00:04:02,521 Speaker 3: Fifty thousand bolts is just an ability to transfer the 71 00:04:02,561 --> 00:04:04,921 Speaker 3: electricity from one point to the other. You can go 72 00:04:05,201 --> 00:04:07,721 Speaker 3: Science Works and touch a device down there. It's got 73 00:04:07,761 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 3: a million bolts and they'll stand your hair up right. 74 00:04:09,961 --> 00:04:14,121 Speaker 3: It's quite funny. We often go through doors and get 75 00:04:14,161 --> 00:04:16,121 Speaker 3: out of cars and get zapped by voltage. 76 00:04:16,281 --> 00:04:17,441 Speaker 1: It's not going to hurt us. 77 00:04:18,041 --> 00:04:23,001 Speaker 3: The difference between Taser is interesting, and I go back 78 00:04:23,041 --> 00:04:26,801 Speaker 3: to the guy that actually invented the technology. His name 79 00:04:26,921 --> 00:04:30,801 Speaker 3: escapes me at the moment, but he was at NASA. 80 00:04:31,121 --> 00:04:34,361 Speaker 3: He was reading his paper and he's reading an article 81 00:04:34,361 --> 00:04:37,841 Speaker 3: where a farmer had been connected to a wire fence 82 00:04:38,361 --> 00:04:42,881 Speaker 3: for several hours and he didn't die. This sinus couldn't 83 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,361 Speaker 3: work out why, and he investigated it, and what had 84 00:04:45,401 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 3: happened was a power pole had fallen over and the 85 00:04:49,361 --> 00:04:52,921 Speaker 3: electricity had connected with the wire fence and the charge 86 00:04:52,961 --> 00:04:57,201 Speaker 3: was traveling down the wire, but it was intermittent charge. 87 00:04:58,521 --> 00:05:01,721 Speaker 3: Now that's different to what electricity does to us. If 88 00:05:01,721 --> 00:05:06,361 Speaker 3: we get a charge of electricity, it's constant, where Taser 89 00:05:06,401 --> 00:05:11,681 Speaker 3: has pulsating charging. For example, when you're exposed to Taser, 90 00:05:11,721 --> 00:05:16,481 Speaker 3: you get exposed nineteen times a second of electrical pulses, 91 00:05:16,681 --> 00:05:19,161 Speaker 3: not a constant charge. A constant charge will kill you. 92 00:05:19,641 --> 00:05:24,801 Speaker 3: But the pulses give a breathing space Albert nine seconds. 93 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,721 Speaker 3: So that's basically how it works. If you're talking about amperage, 94 00:05:30,401 --> 00:05:32,601 Speaker 3: like I said, it takes about ten amps to kill someone. 95 00:05:33,001 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: Taser has got point zero zero to one amps, so 96 00:05:38,681 --> 00:05:42,121 Speaker 3: two hundredth of an amp. That's the amount of amperage 97 00:05:42,161 --> 00:05:44,641 Speaker 3: you know Taser. So when you look at it that way, 98 00:05:45,521 --> 00:05:49,681 Speaker 3: it can't kill. It medically can't kill. And I've looked 99 00:05:49,681 --> 00:05:54,001 Speaker 3: at a lot of those AI studies or examples. You 100 00:05:54,081 --> 00:05:57,201 Speaker 3: look at them and they're old, they're twenty eight years old. 101 00:05:57,521 --> 00:06:02,841 Speaker 3: We're talking early two thousands where TAYS was extremely controversial 102 00:06:03,521 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 3: and Amnesty International jumped on board. Everyone jumped on board 103 00:06:06,761 --> 00:06:10,241 Speaker 3: saying these are devices of torture, they are killing people 104 00:06:10,241 --> 00:06:13,121 Speaker 3: and so forth. And you mentioned four hundred and forty 105 00:06:13,281 --> 00:06:15,921 Speaker 3: Taser deaths, Well, if you look at it, they were 106 00:06:16,041 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: probably Taser related deaths. And I know from examples that 107 00:06:22,041 --> 00:06:26,321 Speaker 3: a lot of these taser related deaths are related because 108 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 3: taser was used. I can name a lot of deaths 109 00:06:29,721 --> 00:06:33,361 Speaker 3: that happened similar sort of circumstances where police and I 110 00:06:33,401 --> 00:06:36,801 Speaker 3: won't say bad guys but mentally disturbed people were involved 111 00:06:37,121 --> 00:06:39,841 Speaker 3: and they died. Taser wasn't there, so it wasn't that 112 00:06:39,921 --> 00:06:43,881 Speaker 3: much controversy, but they died from things like positional a 113 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,241 Speaker 3: fixture where three, four or five heavy coppers would land 114 00:06:47,281 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 3: on top of them. 115 00:06:48,081 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: They couldn't breathe, they die. 116 00:06:49,481 --> 00:06:52,241 Speaker 2: That's the George Floyd example from America, where. 117 00:06:52,041 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 3: It's similar to pin down, or the Brazilian student back 118 00:06:55,801 --> 00:06:58,761 Speaker 3: how many years ago, six, seven, eight years ago might. 119 00:06:58,681 --> 00:07:00,241 Speaker 1: Be longer, Yeah, it might be looking up. 120 00:07:00,401 --> 00:07:02,401 Speaker 2: But that one always gets played when people talk about 121 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,481 Speaker 2: tasers that they refer to the Brazilian student shoplifting in Sydney. 122 00:07:06,801 --> 00:07:11,001 Speaker 2: He gets chased, police attend and he's tasted, but then 123 00:07:11,041 --> 00:07:12,281 Speaker 2: they all jump on him as well. 124 00:07:13,321 --> 00:07:16,561 Speaker 3: Tragic, but the homicide squad rang me up the next morning. 125 00:07:16,561 --> 00:07:18,881 Speaker 3: He said, George blake'spain taser. 126 00:07:19,121 --> 00:07:19,561 Speaker 1: He's died. 127 00:07:20,481 --> 00:07:22,561 Speaker 3: I've had a few phone calls like that over the years, 128 00:07:22,841 --> 00:07:25,361 Speaker 3: and I straight away said, tell me the circumstances, they 129 00:07:25,361 --> 00:07:27,841 Speaker 3: told me, and I go, Tas, it didn't kill him, 130 00:07:28,161 --> 00:07:30,201 Speaker 3: And I go, he, do you know that. You know 131 00:07:30,281 --> 00:07:32,281 Speaker 3: I'm in Sydney, I'm in Melbourne at the time. And 132 00:07:32,361 --> 00:07:33,881 Speaker 3: I said, I can tell you now from what you've 133 00:07:33,881 --> 00:07:36,521 Speaker 3: told me, tases didn't kill him unless he swallowed it. 134 00:07:36,961 --> 00:07:38,921 Speaker 1: He might have choked on it and died. That's the 135 00:07:38,961 --> 00:07:39,801 Speaker 1: only way it can kill. 136 00:07:40,641 --> 00:07:43,481 Speaker 3: What happened in actual fact with that, and the coroner 137 00:07:43,521 --> 00:07:47,441 Speaker 3: came and gave that decision. And the thing I said 138 00:07:47,481 --> 00:07:50,081 Speaker 3: to the homicide squad that morning, tell me about the 139 00:07:50,121 --> 00:07:55,001 Speaker 3: actual wires, because the wires that are used to tether 140 00:07:55,321 --> 00:07:58,521 Speaker 3: the dart to the cartridge, So you've got wires inside 141 00:07:58,561 --> 00:08:02,321 Speaker 3: the cartridge. When the electricity hits the cartridge, it deploys 142 00:08:02,361 --> 00:08:08,201 Speaker 3: two darts, one at horizontal eight degrees, and it spreads 143 00:08:08,241 --> 00:08:12,681 Speaker 3: the darts, which spreads the electricity. And in the case 144 00:08:12,721 --> 00:08:17,921 Speaker 3: of deploying it properly, the wires should be crimped, because 145 00:08:17,921 --> 00:08:19,921 Speaker 3: they're crimped when they go in the cardres they folded 146 00:08:19,921 --> 00:08:24,081 Speaker 3: and they have this crease in the wire. I said, 147 00:08:24,081 --> 00:08:25,801 Speaker 3: what are the wires like and he said, oh, one's 148 00:08:25,801 --> 00:08:28,921 Speaker 3: crimped and one straight. I said, well, one didn't connect 149 00:08:28,921 --> 00:08:30,321 Speaker 3: to him. He said, how do you know that? And 150 00:08:30,321 --> 00:08:33,161 Speaker 3: I said, well, if you fire a taser into mid air, 151 00:08:33,601 --> 00:08:38,681 Speaker 3: the wires will deploy to the maximum distance and they'll stretch. 152 00:08:38,961 --> 00:08:39,841 Speaker 1: They won't have a crimp. 153 00:08:40,401 --> 00:08:43,921 Speaker 3: And he said, ah, it was simple, so it wasn't effective. 154 00:08:44,081 --> 00:08:45,441 Speaker 1: No, it didn't. 155 00:08:45,481 --> 00:08:48,481 Speaker 3: And even if it did, the currenter said it was 156 00:08:48,561 --> 00:08:51,281 Speaker 3: positional to fix youre that killed him. They all piled 157 00:08:51,321 --> 00:08:54,201 Speaker 3: on top of him. Keep in mind, those policemen at 158 00:08:54,241 --> 00:08:56,681 Speaker 3: that time of the morning had done a shift through 159 00:08:56,721 --> 00:09:00,761 Speaker 3: the night. One of their members, another officer, had been 160 00:09:00,841 --> 00:09:05,441 Speaker 3: shot during an armed robbery attempt m robbery. And the 161 00:09:05,521 --> 00:09:08,041 Speaker 3: little bloke in the seven eleven that called the police 162 00:09:08,161 --> 00:09:11,441 Speaker 3: it was a language barrier and he said robbery, robbery, 163 00:09:11,721 --> 00:09:15,281 Speaker 3: and they've got this over the air Chinese whisper that 164 00:09:16,481 --> 00:09:19,961 Speaker 3: there was another armed rubbery in progress. Police, having experienced 165 00:09:20,001 --> 00:09:22,681 Speaker 3: that in that shift late at night, early in the morning, 166 00:09:23,001 --> 00:09:25,761 Speaker 3: went to it hyped up. Saw this bloke run out 167 00:09:25,801 --> 00:09:29,521 Speaker 3: of the seven eleven store, bare chested off. He goes, 168 00:09:29,641 --> 00:09:33,081 Speaker 3: please chase him. They fired the taser. They eventually get 169 00:09:33,121 --> 00:09:34,721 Speaker 3: to him, pole on top of him. 170 00:09:35,041 --> 00:09:35,521 Speaker 1: He dies. 171 00:09:36,721 --> 00:09:39,921 Speaker 3: Coroner, not the media, not you, mah or anyone else. 172 00:09:40,001 --> 00:09:43,441 Speaker 3: The coroner said he died from this, not taser. And 173 00:09:43,481 --> 00:09:47,001 Speaker 3: I can give you dozens of examples, and some of 174 00:09:47,041 --> 00:09:50,401 Speaker 3: them in Australia and mostly around the world. 175 00:09:50,801 --> 00:09:54,561 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was now twelve years ago. That was Betho Ladizio, 176 00:09:54,881 --> 00:09:58,161 Speaker 2: the Brazilian student, and that really has stuck with people 177 00:09:58,681 --> 00:10:01,441 Speaker 2: in their minds when they think about tasers. But as 178 00:10:01,481 --> 00:10:05,121 Speaker 2: you say, people don't read the fine detail. And you 179 00:10:05,041 --> 00:10:07,601 Speaker 2: you were in Victoria Police during a very bloody era 180 00:10:07,961 --> 00:10:10,481 Speaker 2: when a lot of suspects were shot. You were involved 181 00:10:10,521 --> 00:10:14,121 Speaker 2: in at least two operations where suspects did die. What's 182 00:10:14,161 --> 00:10:17,841 Speaker 2: the alternative where if you're having to shoot suspects who 183 00:10:17,881 --> 00:10:21,401 Speaker 2: could otherwise be incapacitated, where are we. 184 00:10:22,121 --> 00:10:24,321 Speaker 3: I was involved in one two, I was involved in 185 00:10:24,401 --> 00:10:26,801 Speaker 3: quite a few. Not the shooter in every case, but 186 00:10:27,561 --> 00:10:31,201 Speaker 3: I saw a lot of deaths as a result of 187 00:10:31,761 --> 00:10:35,281 Speaker 3: lethal force. And as a result of that, not me, 188 00:10:35,401 --> 00:10:39,601 Speaker 3: but the hierarchy decided to bring in a new system 189 00:10:39,641 --> 00:10:42,841 Speaker 3: where it was called Operation Beacon. And I actually left 190 00:10:42,881 --> 00:10:45,201 Speaker 3: the police force and they brought that in. 191 00:10:45,241 --> 00:10:45,841 Speaker 2: Because of that. 192 00:10:46,841 --> 00:10:51,001 Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, it was more political. I 193 00:10:51,121 --> 00:10:53,721 Speaker 3: enjoyed my life in the police force. I joined on 194 00:10:53,761 --> 00:10:56,401 Speaker 3: the twelfth of July seventy six, resigned on the twelfth 195 00:10:56,401 --> 00:11:00,281 Speaker 3: of July ninety four, and I designed it that way 196 00:11:00,401 --> 00:11:04,521 Speaker 3: and went into business that I'm in now, So. 197 00:11:04,441 --> 00:11:05,521 Speaker 1: You look for alternatives. 198 00:11:05,561 --> 00:11:08,601 Speaker 3: The alternative then was not knee jerk, but it was like, 199 00:11:08,961 --> 00:11:13,601 Speaker 3: we're going to do something to stop this ongoing fatality rate. 200 00:11:14,361 --> 00:11:18,521 Speaker 3: And interesting period because the inspector in charge of the 201 00:11:19,081 --> 00:11:22,081 Speaker 3: police training at the time was Inspected Jim Ben, a 202 00:11:22,121 --> 00:11:24,601 Speaker 3: good mate of mine, had been in the SAG, like 203 00:11:24,641 --> 00:11:27,441 Speaker 3: a lot of other guys that went from promotion after 204 00:11:27,481 --> 00:11:32,321 Speaker 3: they left the SAG, went to training, and what happened was, 205 00:11:32,921 --> 00:11:35,601 Speaker 3: in my early days, you were told not take a 206 00:11:35,641 --> 00:11:37,681 Speaker 3: gun out of your host unless you get shot at. 207 00:11:38,241 --> 00:11:41,841 Speaker 3: What Jim and all the other guys taught police officers 208 00:11:41,961 --> 00:11:45,441 Speaker 3: was defend yourself. Now, I can tell you a dozen 209 00:11:45,881 --> 00:11:48,761 Speaker 3: or twenty five different reasons why you should get your 210 00:11:48,761 --> 00:11:51,961 Speaker 3: gun out if you were facing a real and impending threat, 211 00:11:53,721 --> 00:11:57,841 Speaker 3: because basically, a criminal can fire a weapon before you 212 00:11:57,881 --> 00:12:00,401 Speaker 3: can send a message from your brain down your finger 213 00:12:00,441 --> 00:12:02,841 Speaker 3: to defend yourself, So you have to have that weapon 214 00:12:02,841 --> 00:12:06,561 Speaker 3: out if you've faced with a real threat to your life. 215 00:12:07,161 --> 00:12:09,961 Speaker 3: So they started training in that respect. They started training 216 00:12:10,001 --> 00:12:13,881 Speaker 3: a much better tactically better use of firearm, but more 217 00:12:13,921 --> 00:12:16,481 Speaker 3: importantly the tactical side of things. And what happened, as 218 00:12:16,561 --> 00:12:19,081 Speaker 3: Jim ben said to the media at the time, they said, 219 00:12:19,081 --> 00:12:24,201 Speaker 3: why Victoria police shooting more people? In fact, the whole 220 00:12:24,241 --> 00:12:30,161 Speaker 3: of Australia double at was Victoria's rate of shooting. Jim 221 00:12:30,241 --> 00:12:34,481 Speaker 3: Vent very casually sat back and said, because we're better shots, 222 00:12:36,361 --> 00:12:37,481 Speaker 3: and that was fact. 223 00:12:37,561 --> 00:12:41,361 Speaker 1: That was true. You couldn't ask him to explain about. 224 00:12:41,241 --> 00:12:44,281 Speaker 2: And the people being shot also had firearms themselves. A 225 00:12:44,321 --> 00:12:46,041 Speaker 2: bit of a war going on at that time between 226 00:12:46,041 --> 00:12:48,601 Speaker 2: the police and the crooks, which obviously culminated in the 227 00:12:48,601 --> 00:12:51,641 Speaker 2: Wall Street murders of two police. 228 00:12:51,401 --> 00:12:56,641 Speaker 3: Officers, Damien Here and Stephen Tynan, which is really tragic, horrible. 229 00:12:56,961 --> 00:13:00,481 Speaker 3: So you look for alternatives. Beacon was one, but you 230 00:13:00,601 --> 00:13:03,441 Speaker 3: look at what the world's like now. It's more equality. 231 00:13:03,521 --> 00:13:07,561 Speaker 3: So you got little people. When I say little people 232 00:13:08,481 --> 00:13:12,201 Speaker 3: physically not what they used to have. I used to wear, 233 00:13:12,241 --> 00:13:14,001 Speaker 3: you know, I wore thick socks when I went for 234 00:13:14,041 --> 00:13:16,681 Speaker 3: the high test and just got in and I'm five 235 00:13:16,841 --> 00:13:17,081 Speaker 3: nine and. 236 00:13:17,041 --> 00:13:19,641 Speaker 1: A half and I think you've added an inch they 237 00:13:19,641 --> 00:13:20,921 Speaker 1: heaven you, Yeah, I think I might. 238 00:13:21,201 --> 00:13:21,721 Speaker 2: I think you did. 239 00:13:21,921 --> 00:13:26,361 Speaker 3: I shrunk jumping out a helicopters too much. So you've 240 00:13:26,361 --> 00:13:28,521 Speaker 3: got a different type of person on the street now. 241 00:13:28,921 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: They're not physically able to deal hand to hand combat. 242 00:13:33,401 --> 00:13:35,921 Speaker 3: So we need to give them the proper tools. Because 243 00:13:35,961 --> 00:13:39,361 Speaker 3: if you are faced with again a real and impending 244 00:13:39,401 --> 00:13:42,761 Speaker 3: thread and you're a person that is looking at six 245 00:13:42,801 --> 00:13:44,961 Speaker 3: foot six and he says I'm going to take that 246 00:13:45,041 --> 00:13:47,321 Speaker 3: gun off you and shove out your backside, and you 247 00:13:47,361 --> 00:13:50,121 Speaker 3: know that sort of thing, you've got to give them 248 00:13:50,121 --> 00:13:53,161 Speaker 3: an alternative otherwise they're going to use that lethal force, 249 00:13:53,681 --> 00:13:55,761 Speaker 3: and they justified to. If a bloke comes to me 250 00:13:55,841 --> 00:13:58,241 Speaker 3: and says I'm going to kill you and I've only 251 00:13:58,281 --> 00:13:59,961 Speaker 3: got a gun, I'm going to have to use a 252 00:14:00,001 --> 00:14:01,161 Speaker 3: gun against you, it's gun day. 253 00:14:01,441 --> 00:14:06,841 Speaker 1: It's gun day. Yeah. So taser is a great alternative battens. 254 00:14:07,521 --> 00:14:09,641 Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know you've got to get in close 255 00:14:09,681 --> 00:14:13,201 Speaker 3: and close caught a battle situation. It's not always ideal, 256 00:14:13,201 --> 00:14:16,041 Speaker 3: and unless you're an expert you train every day all day, 257 00:14:16,681 --> 00:14:17,681 Speaker 3: it just doesn't work. 258 00:14:18,041 --> 00:14:18,841 Speaker 1: OC spray. 259 00:14:19,401 --> 00:14:22,361 Speaker 3: You know, I've been drowned in it and still run 260 00:14:22,441 --> 00:14:27,921 Speaker 3: through courses where being drowned in it, shoot targets do 261 00:14:28,121 --> 00:14:32,881 Speaker 3: relaads and shoot accurately and still suffering in pain and discomfort. 262 00:14:34,481 --> 00:14:38,041 Speaker 3: It doesn't stop you. And especially if you're mentally rage, alcohol, 263 00:14:38,161 --> 00:14:41,601 Speaker 3: drug effected, it may not affect you at all. Oc 264 00:14:41,801 --> 00:14:44,081 Speaker 3: spray or hit with a baton and I swung a 265 00:14:44,121 --> 00:14:46,481 Speaker 3: bat and a couple of times until that didn't work, 266 00:14:46,881 --> 00:14:49,321 Speaker 3: bounced off their head. But tas is a different thing. 267 00:14:49,601 --> 00:14:53,961 Speaker 3: Taser will incapacitate. It works like a bullet in a 268 00:14:53,961 --> 00:14:57,161 Speaker 3: lot of ways, but it hasn't that lethality. A bullet 269 00:14:57,801 --> 00:15:02,481 Speaker 3: placed between the eyes and followed down through the spinal cord. 270 00:15:02,761 --> 00:15:04,761 Speaker 3: I think it's don't quote me, but it's C two 271 00:15:04,761 --> 00:15:08,441 Speaker 3: C three of the spinal cord will topple a person 272 00:15:08,481 --> 00:15:09,761 Speaker 3: over instantly. 273 00:15:09,481 --> 00:15:11,961 Speaker 2: Roughly just near the breastbone sort of thing. 274 00:15:12,841 --> 00:15:15,241 Speaker 3: I think it's just below the base of the head 275 00:15:15,401 --> 00:15:17,921 Speaker 3: around down the back of the neck sort of thing 276 00:15:18,001 --> 00:15:22,081 Speaker 3: that area. Because I've seen it, I've done a lot 277 00:15:22,121 --> 00:15:24,561 Speaker 3: of research, I've spoken a lot of other place in 278 00:15:24,681 --> 00:15:28,361 Speaker 3: respect to shootings. And there's a classic movie people can 279 00:15:28,361 --> 00:15:33,041 Speaker 3: go watch The FBI Killings. It's a fantastic Hollywood movie, 280 00:15:33,081 --> 00:15:36,641 Speaker 3: quite old. But I saw the recreation of that particular 281 00:15:36,681 --> 00:15:41,921 Speaker 3: shooting in Miami, Florida, where several FBI agents confronted two 282 00:15:42,561 --> 00:15:46,281 Speaker 3: sailans heavily armed, and the coroner at the end of 283 00:15:46,321 --> 00:15:50,001 Speaker 3: the thing where two FBI agents were killed. The two 284 00:15:50,041 --> 00:15:52,961 Speaker 3: bad guys were killed, but two FBI agents were killed 285 00:15:53,161 --> 00:15:57,401 Speaker 3: and five were injured shot and the coroner said that 286 00:15:57,441 --> 00:16:00,201 Speaker 3: one of the first rounds that the FBI agent shot 287 00:16:00,561 --> 00:16:03,921 Speaker 3: was a fatal shot to the bad guy, but he 288 00:16:03,961 --> 00:16:06,561 Speaker 3: walked around for two minutes, killed a couple of agents, 289 00:16:06,881 --> 00:16:11,081 Speaker 3: and shot a few more. So, bullet doesn't always stop 290 00:16:11,401 --> 00:16:14,281 Speaker 3: a real and impending threat. People can still die. And 291 00:16:14,321 --> 00:16:16,521 Speaker 3: that bullet went through his heart, by the way, and 292 00:16:16,561 --> 00:16:21,481 Speaker 3: he still walked around for to admitute tayser will incapacit 293 00:16:21,721 --> 00:16:26,001 Speaker 3: properly deployed, properly trained people, and I emphasized properly train 294 00:16:26,441 --> 00:16:30,321 Speaker 3: officers will deploy Taser. It will work every time. Taser 295 00:16:30,361 --> 00:16:35,561 Speaker 3: doesn't fail. Taser unit don't fail. It's the operators that 296 00:16:35,721 --> 00:16:37,041 Speaker 3: failed to deploy properly. 297 00:16:38,801 --> 00:16:41,881 Speaker 2: Because you've been in that life and death situation at 298 00:16:41,881 --> 00:16:44,001 Speaker 2: the airport there with normally Lee when he was robbing 299 00:16:44,081 --> 00:16:46,801 Speaker 2: the ANSET terminal there. This is back in ninety two. 300 00:16:47,401 --> 00:16:50,321 Speaker 2: They were very determined he was a very good arm robber, 301 00:16:50,721 --> 00:16:54,201 Speaker 2: and he was ready to kill officers. That day, you 302 00:16:54,201 --> 00:16:56,761 Speaker 2: were faced with that moment where they were trying to 303 00:16:56,761 --> 00:16:58,201 Speaker 2: get away, you were there. 304 00:16:58,401 --> 00:17:01,481 Speaker 3: What happened in a nutshell, I was faced with a 305 00:17:01,561 --> 00:17:05,761 Speaker 3: real impending threat and Lee pointed a weapon towards me, 306 00:17:05,801 --> 00:17:09,561 Speaker 3: and I felt instantly didn't even hesitate the fire because 307 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,521 Speaker 3: of the fact that I was defending myself. I had 308 00:17:12,721 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 3: had sufficient training. We'd actually rehearsed for weeks and weeks 309 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,761 Speaker 3: and weeks on that pending arrest that we didn't know 310 00:17:19,801 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 3: what they were going to do, whether they're going to 311 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,321 Speaker 3: hold a bankup or a payroll or something at the airport. 312 00:17:25,481 --> 00:17:28,241 Speaker 3: Then it eventuated it was at the airport, and it 313 00:17:28,281 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 3: was a situation that happened in nanoseconds, But it was 314 00:17:32,001 --> 00:17:36,441 Speaker 3: the training that brought it out that I responded very quickly, 315 00:17:36,721 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 3: and unfortunately for him, I got in first before. 316 00:17:39,201 --> 00:17:39,561 Speaker 1: He got me. 317 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,241 Speaker 3: I'd say, that's fortunate for you, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 318 00:17:43,241 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 3: But I put that back down to my training people. 319 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,041 Speaker 3: You know, we had to manatorily go to see the psychologist, 320 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 3: and I was pretty settled about it, pretty comfortable with 321 00:17:54,721 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 3: what I did because I'd trained for it. We'd talked 322 00:17:57,921 --> 00:18:03,281 Speaker 3: about these sort of situations, debriefed over shootings that we've 323 00:18:03,721 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 3: been involved with before, so mentally I was prepared for it. 324 00:18:07,321 --> 00:18:10,321 Speaker 3: And the problem with on the street coppers when they 325 00:18:10,321 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: get into those sort of situations, they're faced with traumatic 326 00:18:14,041 --> 00:18:17,681 Speaker 3: stress because they haven't had the training that we'd had. 327 00:18:18,561 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: And taking life is a big deal. 328 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 3: But you know what, a lot of times police think 329 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:27,521 Speaker 3: about it could have been them instead, and that's what 330 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,241 Speaker 3: traumatizes officers more so than taking a life. 331 00:18:31,281 --> 00:18:32,161 Speaker 1: And that's my opinion. 332 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 3: I could be debated on that, but I've spoken a 333 00:18:35,241 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 3: lot of police that have been in shootings and one 334 00:18:38,521 --> 00:18:40,681 Speaker 3: of the first things they worried about, oh, George could 335 00:18:40,721 --> 00:18:43,801 Speaker 3: have been made. You know, I've been in situation where 336 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,241 Speaker 3: other offers, we've been involved in shootings and we've had 337 00:18:48,441 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 3: I've said buddy up and checked for bullet holes and 338 00:18:52,241 --> 00:18:54,681 Speaker 3: they've gone what And I go check if you've been shot? 339 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,521 Speaker 3: Because we had best sun and I wanted them to 340 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 3: check each other to see if they've been shot. And 341 00:19:00,681 --> 00:19:02,801 Speaker 3: on a couple of occasions there was a few guys 342 00:19:02,801 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 3: that were pretty upset about having been involved in a 343 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,201 Speaker 3: real life shooting where their life could have been taken. 344 00:19:10,281 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no doubt that normally Lee was going to 345 00:19:12,241 --> 00:19:14,761 Speaker 2: shoot you. I mean he made look like he was surrendering, 346 00:19:15,241 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 2: lowered the weapon, but then he raised it and you 347 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: had no choice to fire. That didn't give you stress. 348 00:19:19,721 --> 00:19:24,161 Speaker 2: But I know that the killing of Frankie Velastro, well 349 00:19:24,201 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 2: known crook. You didn't pull the trigger, but that one 350 00:19:27,441 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 2: did give you some stress. 351 00:19:28,681 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 3: Why was that I knew him, I'd rested him years ago, 352 00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:35,601 Speaker 3: and I was prepared to arrest him again at that 353 00:19:35,801 --> 00:19:41,321 Speaker 3: particular instant, and I was gonna whisper in Frank gets George, 354 00:19:41,441 --> 00:19:44,281 Speaker 3: and that would have would have been a funny thing 355 00:19:44,321 --> 00:19:48,921 Speaker 3: at the top, because he was a bad guy. He 356 00:19:49,001 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 3: was a violent rapist, he was a thief, he was 357 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 3: a his firearms drug dealer a lot, and he was 358 00:19:55,201 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 3: into it. When he got out of Jile, he was 359 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,001 Speaker 3: into it again. And it happened pretty quick. I mean 360 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 3: I was opening the back door. We could see him 361 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,801 Speaker 3: when he walked out, and I was like, it was 362 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,521 Speaker 3: all glass and the wide door and I was opening it, 363 00:20:07,561 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 3: and the guy next to me, thankfulness responded because the 364 00:20:10,481 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 3: last I went for his gun. He was a badass, 365 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 3: you know, and the guy next to me shot him 366 00:20:14,961 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 3: and he was dead before he hit the floor, and 367 00:20:18,521 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 3: that was an unfortunate day for him. But you know, 368 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 3: we all survived. 369 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,561 Speaker 2: It, but you did have some issues after it, and 370 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 2: then you've been a tough guy. 371 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 3: It was funny because I had been involved in a 372 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,561 Speaker 3: couple of incidents where they've been shots fired before when 373 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 3: I was a detective. There were several detectives on my 374 00:20:38,001 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 3: floor Robbie Squad and Major Crime Squad that I was 375 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,561 Speaker 3: in that had been shot, none fatally, thinkingness, especially during 376 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 3: the Mad Max days, a couple of being shot good 377 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:53,001 Speaker 3: mane of Mine, Rod McDonald and Sargant Caaperaninovski who had 378 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,961 Speaker 3: been shot by Mad Max. So I've been through a lot, 379 00:20:56,041 --> 00:21:00,281 Speaker 3: but this particular thing, what happened was I just kept 380 00:21:00,521 --> 00:21:04,521 Speaker 3: seeing the lastra being shot and full down and it 381 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,761 Speaker 3: was and it's driving me nuts. So I went to 382 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,001 Speaker 3: the site and said, I'm experiencing this and he has 383 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 3: post traumatic stress. I said, I'm not stressed, and he goes, 384 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:16,921 Speaker 3: but that's a symptom, and I've gone ah, so I'm 385 00:21:16,961 --> 00:21:20,801 Speaker 3: not going nuts and he said no. I never had 386 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,761 Speaker 3: it again after I got told I was informed that 387 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,321 Speaker 3: it was just a normal thing to experience, you know, 388 00:21:25,921 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 3: But from then on, no problems because I was mentally 389 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,321 Speaker 3: trained and prepared for that sort of thing. We trained 390 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:37,521 Speaker 3: with the Army the sas everyone is trained to. The 391 00:21:37,921 --> 00:21:40,761 Speaker 3: Armies are trained to kill first, and we're in a 392 00:21:41,041 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 3: much harder situation because we have to be justified wholly 393 00:21:45,001 --> 00:21:47,681 Speaker 3: and solely to use their weapons, where the army tend 394 00:21:47,761 --> 00:21:49,761 Speaker 3: to know that it's the enemy in the field that 395 00:21:49,801 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 3: they have to use their weapons, and we have a 396 00:21:52,441 --> 00:21:55,041 Speaker 3: harder situation. We've got to think hard about it before 397 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:56,521 Speaker 3: we use our virums. 398 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,561 Speaker 2: Well, and you know that this will be replayed in 399 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,041 Speaker 2: slow motion in the Supreme Court of the Coroner's Court 400 00:22:01,481 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 2: and the whole public will be watching. So there's a 401 00:22:04,201 --> 00:22:06,641 Speaker 2: lot of pressure, a lot more today even I would say, 402 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 2: But did these experiences lead you to think about getting 403 00:22:10,481 --> 00:22:14,521 Speaker 2: involved and introducing non lethal options like the taser after 404 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:15,841 Speaker 2: your career, Yeah. 405 00:22:15,721 --> 00:22:17,521 Speaker 1: For sure. I was looking at anything and everything. 406 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,481 Speaker 3: We had a guy approaches when I was in the 407 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 3: SAG with a thing called air taser, and it's the 408 00:22:23,761 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 3: old type one. It just didn't work that much. We 409 00:22:28,481 --> 00:22:31,441 Speaker 3: had a practice trial session at the Russell Street Gym 410 00:22:31,961 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 3: in the boxing ring, and they put me in. The 411 00:22:34,481 --> 00:22:38,241 Speaker 3: biggest guy on the sag hooded us and deployed this 412 00:22:38,681 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 3: air taser and it hurt, but it just got me angrier, 413 00:22:42,961 --> 00:22:45,561 Speaker 3: more worked up, and I fought harder at it. 414 00:22:46,721 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: And beat worked through it, and it just didn't work 415 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:52,001 Speaker 1: that much. 416 00:22:52,041 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 3: It was pain compliant, and that's what battons oc spray 417 00:22:55,481 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 3: boughts to a certain extent, fists raal pain compliant taser 418 00:22:59,521 --> 00:23:02,321 Speaker 3: is to a point explain that, Well, if I go 419 00:23:02,481 --> 00:23:04,321 Speaker 3: up and pinch you on the arm, you go elch. 420 00:23:04,521 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 3: If I hit you with a bat and you go ol, 421 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,761 Speaker 3: which might not necessarily stop you because he might be 422 00:23:08,921 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 3: so rage affected, drug mentally, alcohol affected, you may not 423 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 3: feel it. 424 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:15,321 Speaker 1: You know. 425 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,721 Speaker 3: I got in a brawl once where we went in 426 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 3: and arrested the groom and the best man at a wedding. 427 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:22,441 Speaker 2: It must have been quite a wedding. 428 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,001 Speaker 3: Yeah, we sort of took a wild at aside to 429 00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:28,521 Speaker 3: let him get married and then gather reception. But that's 430 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,241 Speaker 3: before the honeymoon, which was a topic of conversation afterwards. 431 00:23:33,681 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 3: But we went in, grabbed this bloke, hit him by 432 00:23:36,241 --> 00:23:38,801 Speaker 3: a headlock, dragged him out and it was a big 433 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 3: wedding and all the ladies started to have a food 434 00:23:41,681 --> 00:23:44,281 Speaker 3: fight with us, throwing plates and everything they could us. 435 00:23:44,761 --> 00:23:47,001 Speaker 3: But it was a lot of coppers there and I 436 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 3: wasn't going to let this bloke go. Dragged him out 437 00:23:50,001 --> 00:23:52,721 Speaker 3: through the crowd, through the crowd of coppers waiting outside, 438 00:23:52,921 --> 00:23:56,561 Speaker 3: police dogs, the whole thing barking, and then we handcuffed 439 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 3: and put him in the back of a van and 440 00:23:58,281 --> 00:24:01,001 Speaker 3: one of the guys said, George, you've been stabbed, and 441 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:03,641 Speaker 3: I was going where and he goes on your back 442 00:24:03,961 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 3: so I had to watch it on covered in blood. 443 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 3: They lifted up and everyone laughed. There was a perfect 444 00:24:08,961 --> 00:24:12,041 Speaker 3: set of canine benches on my back. The police dog 445 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 3: bit me. 446 00:24:12,521 --> 00:24:13,121 Speaker 2: Your own dog. 447 00:24:13,681 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 3: No, I didn't feel it, didn't feel it, didn't know it. 448 00:24:16,521 --> 00:24:18,801 Speaker 3: And that's what I was saying when your rage affected, 449 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:21,521 Speaker 3: and I was at the time, you may not feel it. 450 00:24:21,681 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 3: You may not be deterred by a bat and no 451 00:24:24,281 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 3: sea spray or even being shit. 452 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,881 Speaker 2: You know, because this is terrifying for young recruits going 453 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,721 Speaker 2: into police forces around the country. They're loaded up with 454 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 2: more options than batman on the utility belts and the 455 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:37,321 Speaker 2: whole thing vests and the rest of it. But they're 456 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 2: also facing unique threats now. You've got people who are 457 00:24:40,281 --> 00:24:43,281 Speaker 2: ice affected, you've got people with mental health issues who've 458 00:24:43,281 --> 00:24:47,681 Speaker 2: been deinstitutionalized. You've got people who are now carrying knives. 459 00:24:47,921 --> 00:24:51,281 Speaker 2: There's a lot more people carrying knives now, so there's 460 00:24:51,321 --> 00:24:53,801 Speaker 2: got to be a range of options, and particularly where 461 00:24:53,961 --> 00:24:56,441 Speaker 2: people I think they're also fast tracking training as well. 462 00:24:56,521 --> 00:25:00,241 Speaker 2: There's a massive deficit of recruits. This all leads to 463 00:25:00,321 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 2: a fairly lethal cocktail out on the road. Yeah, I 464 00:25:04,281 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 2: don't don't you know. I feel sorry for them, but 465 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,321 Speaker 2: it's up to them. It all comes back to the 466 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 2: office roomself train, Train, Train train. Physically, I was really 467 00:25:16,721 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 2: focused on my physical fitness and that helped me a 468 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 2: lot of my career, and not only just chasing crooks 469 00:25:25,041 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 2: or getting into situations you know, physical force or anything 470 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 2: like that, but mentally it helped me. You know some 471 00:25:31,521 --> 00:25:35,481 Speaker 2: blokes that go across the pub and drink their concerns away, 472 00:25:35,761 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 2: and I'd run up and down the stairs at Russell 473 00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 2: Street and give everyone a laugh because they run up 474 00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 2: and down and run up and now. 475 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,441 Speaker 3: But that's how I dealt with it. So what I'm 476 00:25:44,481 --> 00:25:47,761 Speaker 3: saying is officers. Now, if they realize, and they should 477 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,321 Speaker 3: realize that they're not trained as well as they could be, 478 00:25:51,201 --> 00:25:53,601 Speaker 3: go out and train themselves, get onto YouTube, get onto 479 00:25:53,681 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 3: whatever they can, and just join pistol clubs. Because the 480 00:25:57,561 --> 00:26:00,521 Speaker 3: more efficient you are with a firearm, the less you'll 481 00:26:00,561 --> 00:26:03,801 Speaker 3: probably be using it, and if you use it, you'll 482 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,321 Speaker 3: use it efficiently. Because they went from six shots to 483 00:26:07,961 --> 00:26:12,281 Speaker 3: fifteen shot magazines purely because in a lot of cases, 484 00:26:12,481 --> 00:26:17,201 Speaker 3: police officers panic in a situation of life and death, 485 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,561 Speaker 3: would fire their first few rounds and miss and maybe 486 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,361 Speaker 3: miss with all of them. So fifteen meant you had 487 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,321 Speaker 3: more rounds to get on target. And you need to 488 00:26:28,481 --> 00:26:32,441 Speaker 3: be more efficient with firearms. You need to be more 489 00:26:32,481 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 3: efficient with anything you've got on your belt, baton, ac 490 00:26:35,561 --> 00:26:37,321 Speaker 3: spray or anything like that. And one of the things 491 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 3: I used to practice was I'd put everything on my 492 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,481 Speaker 3: belt and I used to turn the lights off, and 493 00:26:42,521 --> 00:26:44,721 Speaker 3: I used to close my eyes and know exactly where 494 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 3: my gun was, exactly where my spare magazines were, exactly 495 00:26:48,921 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 3: where in my case we had zip ties for handcuffs. 496 00:26:53,241 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: But I knew where all my equipment was and. 497 00:26:55,761 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 3: I had it on the same position every day, so 498 00:26:57,921 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 3: It was muscle memory, which is so important with training 499 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 3: to make sure that you respond quickly and accurately efficiently, 500 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,721 Speaker 3: because under stress you revert to your training. If you 501 00:27:11,761 --> 00:27:13,481 Speaker 3: don't train much, you're going to run around like a 502 00:27:13,561 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 3: chip without its head. And that's why in situations that 503 00:27:16,961 --> 00:27:20,721 Speaker 3: I've been involved in, I've been able to react, and 504 00:27:21,521 --> 00:27:24,401 Speaker 3: my officers with me in the SAG, especially because we're 505 00:27:24,481 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 3: so well trained because we trained all day every day. 506 00:27:27,961 --> 00:27:30,161 Speaker 1: That's why we're so good at what we did. 507 00:27:30,721 --> 00:27:34,041 Speaker 3: Never had a fatality in SAG, had a couple of blankes, 508 00:27:34,681 --> 00:27:38,441 Speaker 3: fired a shot, but no actual injuries. 509 00:27:39,921 --> 00:27:42,001 Speaker 2: It's one thing about training and fitness and so forth, 510 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 2: but decision making is so important too. We roll back 511 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,401 Speaker 2: to Clean Island. Example, Christian White made a poor decision. 512 00:27:49,921 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 2: When you've got all these options, how are you supposed 513 00:27:52,721 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 2: to organize your mind around what to use when, because 514 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,321 Speaker 2: you'll have to explain it later on. 515 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,401 Speaker 3: Look, you mentioned before he'd done a long shift. He's 516 00:28:02,441 --> 00:28:07,121 Speaker 3: probably mentally tied. And again where the fitness fitness helped 517 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,041 Speaker 3: me a lot, it made me more awake. Were effishent 518 00:28:10,201 --> 00:28:13,521 Speaker 3: on the ball in training in the SAG. When I 519 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,801 Speaker 3: first went there, we had to do one thing that 520 00:28:15,961 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 3: was a twenty mile not clumbing twenty miles where we'd 521 00:28:18,961 --> 00:28:22,041 Speaker 3: run on bitchman and GP boots overalls, carry a shotgun, 522 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 3: a water bottle and a handgun. And it was a 523 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 3: silly thing, but it was going back in the dark 524 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 3: ages where they introduced that, you know, you've got to 525 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,841 Speaker 3: be a hard man, you know. And I got into 526 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,321 Speaker 3: it and I said the boss, when I was the 527 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 3: instructor training new SAG members or a three month period, 528 00:28:39,321 --> 00:28:42,801 Speaker 3: I said, we've got to revert to reality based training. 529 00:28:43,321 --> 00:28:45,081 Speaker 3: And what that is is when I used to go 530 00:28:45,201 --> 00:28:48,041 Speaker 3: home sometimes on call, I'd get into bed and the 531 00:28:48,081 --> 00:28:50,801 Speaker 3: beeper go off in those days, and I'd ring the 532 00:28:50,881 --> 00:28:52,801 Speaker 3: office and they'd say, I've got a sieg John, so 533 00:28:53,641 --> 00:28:56,361 Speaker 3: you get up. Hadn't ending to sleep, probably a long 534 00:28:56,441 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 3: day training whatever, and I'd go out to a siege, 535 00:29:00,841 --> 00:29:03,801 Speaker 3: finish it by three or four in the morning, get 536 00:29:03,841 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 3: back home, get into bed. I remember this vividly had 537 00:29:06,801 --> 00:29:09,161 Speaker 3: one leg in bed and the people went off, George, 538 00:29:09,321 --> 00:29:11,721 Speaker 3: you're the on call bomb tech. You've got to go 539 00:29:11,881 --> 00:29:16,641 Speaker 3: to a suspected IUD bomb. And I get up went 540 00:29:16,721 --> 00:29:19,961 Speaker 3: to that fixed that it was a false alarm and 541 00:29:20,041 --> 00:29:23,201 Speaker 3: then too late, came back home, how to shower at work, 542 00:29:24,121 --> 00:29:27,961 Speaker 3: got ready for the next day's work, went through, did 543 00:29:28,001 --> 00:29:30,481 Speaker 3: our normal training, no excuses, and you can't go and 544 00:29:30,561 --> 00:29:32,601 Speaker 3: have a sleep, let's get out. And you know, we 545 00:29:33,041 --> 00:29:35,801 Speaker 3: had limited offices, so you had to do it. You 546 00:29:35,881 --> 00:29:38,841 Speaker 3: couldn't sook up and say, oh, you know, too tired. 547 00:29:39,761 --> 00:29:42,601 Speaker 3: You did it, and that was real life stuff. So 548 00:29:42,721 --> 00:29:46,361 Speaker 3: I introduced that reality based training into the SAG in 549 00:29:46,401 --> 00:29:50,681 Speaker 3: the early days. And what we did was we'd train 550 00:29:50,801 --> 00:29:54,841 Speaker 3: the guys hard during the day physically and mentally, making 551 00:29:55,201 --> 00:29:58,601 Speaker 3: them make decisions and so forth. And then we did 552 00:29:58,641 --> 00:30:01,081 Speaker 3: it at an old ym S building in the city 553 00:30:01,241 --> 00:30:03,881 Speaker 3: that's demolished now, but they gave it to us to 554 00:30:04,161 --> 00:30:07,041 Speaker 3: further demolishing their training, which was a bit of fun 555 00:30:07,121 --> 00:30:10,481 Speaker 3: and a bit of reality to do things there that 556 00:30:10,601 --> 00:30:14,361 Speaker 3: we did. And late at night after a nice big meal, 557 00:30:14,401 --> 00:30:16,641 Speaker 3: they're all happy that they ate nicely. And at the 558 00:30:16,761 --> 00:30:18,761 Speaker 3: end of the day we put him to bed in 559 00:30:18,881 --> 00:30:21,281 Speaker 3: these sleeping bags at the top of the roof. But 560 00:30:21,441 --> 00:30:24,841 Speaker 3: we had one guy as post security, and it was 561 00:30:24,841 --> 00:30:26,721 Speaker 3: a real you know, we wanted to keep it real. 562 00:30:28,601 --> 00:30:30,841 Speaker 3: About ten minutes after they all got into bed, they 563 00:30:30,881 --> 00:30:33,641 Speaker 3: all went off to sleep, and they all looked snubbled 564 00:30:33,681 --> 00:30:36,041 Speaker 3: in their sleeping bags. And then I said to the 565 00:30:36,081 --> 00:30:38,961 Speaker 3: guy and post, wake them up. We've got a seed situation. 566 00:30:39,361 --> 00:30:43,281 Speaker 3: And he looked at me with deer eyes in the 567 00:30:43,761 --> 00:30:46,561 Speaker 3: headlights sort of thing, and I said, wake him up. 568 00:30:47,361 --> 00:30:49,761 Speaker 3: Got them all up, and keep in mind they're in 569 00:30:49,841 --> 00:30:53,481 Speaker 3: a deep instant sleep and all of a sudden they're 570 00:30:53,761 --> 00:30:58,881 Speaker 3: required to operate as I was on those particular occasions 571 00:30:58,921 --> 00:31:02,881 Speaker 3: where I was waken up to the night we'd done repelling, 572 00:31:03,361 --> 00:31:05,361 Speaker 3: and it was a certain sort of repelling. You don't 573 00:31:05,361 --> 00:31:07,801 Speaker 3: have an anchor point. You use the anchor points as 574 00:31:07,841 --> 00:31:10,681 Speaker 3: your buddy system. So two of you have a harness on. 575 00:31:11,321 --> 00:31:13,361 Speaker 3: One would lay on the roof and the other one 576 00:31:13,441 --> 00:31:15,121 Speaker 3: to jump over, and his anchor point was the guy 577 00:31:15,201 --> 00:31:17,401 Speaker 3: on the roof. But there's a full croom point where 578 00:31:17,401 --> 00:31:19,121 Speaker 3: there was a little nib wall and the rope would 579 00:31:19,121 --> 00:31:21,761 Speaker 3: go over the nd wall and that was the pressure 580 00:31:22,041 --> 00:31:25,921 Speaker 3: that was on the rope. Scary when you're first, but 581 00:31:26,161 --> 00:31:28,481 Speaker 3: when the guys did it, they realized, you know, but 582 00:31:28,681 --> 00:31:31,041 Speaker 3: keep in mind now they're. 583 00:31:30,961 --> 00:31:33,641 Speaker 1: Tired, physically tired, mentally tired. 584 00:31:34,281 --> 00:31:37,041 Speaker 3: And they got their gas masks on because I kitted 585 00:31:37,081 --> 00:31:39,841 Speaker 3: them up with everything, gas masks that they'd been exposed 586 00:31:39,881 --> 00:31:42,041 Speaker 3: to gas that day. When I say gas, tear gas, 587 00:31:42,641 --> 00:31:46,361 Speaker 3: so that hurts, it's uncomfortable, it's annoying. Got the gas 588 00:31:46,481 --> 00:31:50,401 Speaker 3: masks on, you get limited breathing helmets, ballistic vest weapons, 589 00:31:50,601 --> 00:31:53,881 Speaker 3: method of entry tools, weighing you down. And they had 590 00:31:53,921 --> 00:31:56,561 Speaker 3: to slide down the rope and enter a couple of 591 00:31:56,761 --> 00:31:59,001 Speaker 3: flaws down which is about the fifth of the sixth floor. 592 00:31:59,921 --> 00:32:03,121 Speaker 3: But if they failed, they'd go to their death sort 593 00:32:03,161 --> 00:32:06,361 Speaker 3: of thing. There's a certain amount of pressure we put 594 00:32:06,441 --> 00:32:10,161 Speaker 3: on them. And then it started rain. The rapes got slippery, 595 00:32:10,761 --> 00:32:13,521 Speaker 3: and it was a scary situation for the untrained, but 596 00:32:13,881 --> 00:32:16,481 Speaker 3: we'd try to prepare him as much as possible. 597 00:32:17,161 --> 00:32:19,001 Speaker 1: One of the guys went to the. 598 00:32:19,081 --> 00:32:21,161 Speaker 3: Edge of the building and just before he jumped, I 599 00:32:21,241 --> 00:32:22,641 Speaker 3: put my hand on his shoulder and it was a 600 00:32:22,721 --> 00:32:26,561 Speaker 3: safety thing, and I just said, you safe, mister so 601 00:32:26,721 --> 00:32:28,641 Speaker 3: and so, and he looked at me, said yes, and 602 00:32:28,721 --> 00:32:30,921 Speaker 3: I said you sure you're safe, and he said and 603 00:32:30,961 --> 00:32:35,641 Speaker 3: then he started hesitating, And eventually we realized that he's 604 00:32:35,681 --> 00:32:37,721 Speaker 3: tied his rope in his figure eight, which is on 605 00:32:37,801 --> 00:32:40,281 Speaker 3: your harness and you should loop it in and not 606 00:32:40,721 --> 00:32:43,081 Speaker 3: put the tail end into the figure eight first, because 607 00:32:43,121 --> 00:32:45,281 Speaker 3: his next step was going to be his last step. 608 00:32:45,361 --> 00:32:48,001 Speaker 3: He was going to hit the bottom of the ground 609 00:32:48,641 --> 00:32:50,681 Speaker 3: and the rope was going to follow him through. So 610 00:32:50,881 --> 00:32:54,121 Speaker 3: that was under stress, under pressure. We put him under 611 00:32:54,201 --> 00:32:58,521 Speaker 3: so much he just failed his decision making. And that's 612 00:32:58,561 --> 00:33:01,481 Speaker 3: what we used to do. And one of the instructors 613 00:33:01,641 --> 00:33:05,521 Speaker 3: on my course said to me, because those really physically hard, 614 00:33:05,961 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 3: and every Friday afternoon they took you to your limits. 615 00:33:12,081 --> 00:33:14,321 Speaker 3: What he said to us after the course he said, 616 00:33:14,401 --> 00:33:18,041 Speaker 3: we took you to your limit and showed you there 617 00:33:18,121 --> 00:33:21,961 Speaker 3: was a beyond. So if you could do ten, twenty, 618 00:33:22,041 --> 00:33:26,241 Speaker 3: thirty fifty push ups at a time, they'd demand one more. 619 00:33:27,481 --> 00:33:28,881 Speaker 3: You get to them, You go right, I've got a 620 00:33:28,921 --> 00:33:32,641 Speaker 3: goal fifty push ups. Do fifty push ups. Done those, sir, 621 00:33:32,921 --> 00:33:35,081 Speaker 3: And then he'd say I want you to do one more, 622 00:33:35,161 --> 00:33:38,721 Speaker 3: and that one more was often took ten minutes. You 623 00:33:38,841 --> 00:33:42,001 Speaker 3: get halfway down, he said, hold it and you know. 624 00:33:42,241 --> 00:33:47,201 Speaker 3: So it was constant physical training, but mentally we threw 625 00:33:47,241 --> 00:33:49,041 Speaker 3: in a lot of mental stress as. 626 00:33:48,961 --> 00:33:51,601 Speaker 2: Well, especially when a little smart ass George Hateley, had 627 00:33:51,801 --> 00:33:54,961 Speaker 2: run a marathon virtually to get to the academy to 628 00:33:55,041 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 2: show how fitty was before you even got there, how 629 00:33:57,041 --> 00:33:58,081 Speaker 2: your knees these days? Mate? 630 00:33:58,121 --> 00:33:59,681 Speaker 1: After all that, hadn't he replacement? 631 00:33:59,761 --> 00:34:00,241 Speaker 2: Yeah? There you go. 632 00:34:00,881 --> 00:34:03,601 Speaker 3: Yeah, but you don't care, You don't you know. It's 633 00:34:03,641 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 3: all about you self esteem, your pride, your ego, and 634 00:34:08,721 --> 00:34:11,921 Speaker 3: you do things. I mean, I went during the course 635 00:34:12,041 --> 00:34:15,361 Speaker 3: my course, we had to do several runs and I 636 00:34:15,401 --> 00:34:18,641 Speaker 3: had done some repelling and inverted and landed against the 637 00:34:18,721 --> 00:34:23,161 Speaker 3: concrete wall and hit my glue really badly. And I 638 00:34:23,241 --> 00:34:25,561 Speaker 3: went to the physiad and the doctors and all that 639 00:34:26,121 --> 00:34:28,201 Speaker 3: try and fix it up before the Monday morning. And 640 00:34:28,281 --> 00:34:31,161 Speaker 3: then the next thing, he gave me a certificate not 641 00:34:31,241 --> 00:34:33,561 Speaker 3: to attend work for seven days. So I went back 642 00:34:33,601 --> 00:34:37,361 Speaker 3: to work on the Monday and did this run and 643 00:34:37,481 --> 00:34:38,561 Speaker 3: at the end of it, I walked out of the 644 00:34:38,561 --> 00:34:40,921 Speaker 3: instruct and gave him the certificate and he just looked 645 00:34:40,961 --> 00:34:42,361 Speaker 3: at it, laughed and screwed it up and through. 646 00:34:42,361 --> 00:34:44,841 Speaker 1: Aye. I wasn't going to let them beat me. 647 00:34:45,561 --> 00:34:48,761 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you certainly practice what you preach. Just on taser. 648 00:34:49,841 --> 00:34:52,121 Speaker 2: You've been tased I think more than a dozen times, 649 00:34:52,161 --> 00:34:54,001 Speaker 2: and it wasn't because you're an offender. I might ad 650 00:34:54,121 --> 00:34:55,041 Speaker 2: you do you volunteer it? 651 00:34:55,281 --> 00:34:57,281 Speaker 3: Yeah, thirteen times, I counted every month. 652 00:34:57,721 --> 00:34:59,121 Speaker 2: But what's it like? 653 00:34:59,761 --> 00:35:04,641 Speaker 3: Oh, excruciating pain, but funny enough. I really tested myself 654 00:35:04,721 --> 00:35:07,721 Speaker 3: and and it was a good example in Las Vegas 655 00:35:07,881 --> 00:35:10,521 Speaker 3: where I went for a conference and they had this 656 00:35:10,721 --> 00:35:14,241 Speaker 3: new taser technology called x RA and it was a 657 00:35:14,281 --> 00:35:17,361 Speaker 3: shotgun shell that fired out of a shotgun and deployed 658 00:35:17,401 --> 00:35:22,521 Speaker 3: a taser technology within it via an impact round. And 659 00:35:22,601 --> 00:35:24,401 Speaker 3: they asked for volunteers and I put my hand up 660 00:35:24,441 --> 00:35:26,841 Speaker 3: because I'd put my hand up during the conference a 661 00:35:26,921 --> 00:35:30,041 Speaker 3: lot of times. They've done a lot of medical and 662 00:35:30,121 --> 00:35:37,521 Speaker 3: scientific tests on blokes that were fat, alcoholics, smoked, unfit, obeese, whatever. 663 00:35:37,681 --> 00:35:40,001 Speaker 3: I'd put my hand up each time they wouldn't pick me. 664 00:35:40,441 --> 00:35:41,241 Speaker 1: And I went up to him. 665 00:35:41,241 --> 00:35:43,961 Speaker 3: I said, I've traveled all the way from Australia and 666 00:35:44,041 --> 00:35:46,721 Speaker 3: you haven't let me play any games yet, and they 667 00:35:46,841 --> 00:35:48,761 Speaker 3: said they laughed, and they said, George, you ain't smoke, 668 00:35:48,801 --> 00:35:51,841 Speaker 3: you don't drink, you're fit. We want people that are 669 00:35:52,881 --> 00:35:56,641 Speaker 3: you know, out in the street, potential people that might 670 00:35:56,721 --> 00:35:58,641 Speaker 3: get exposed to days. We want to test that. And 671 00:35:58,721 --> 00:36:04,401 Speaker 3: they tested it so much detail medically and scientifically. Anyway, 672 00:36:04,601 --> 00:36:08,321 Speaker 3: I put my hand up to test the extrap and 673 00:36:08,441 --> 00:36:12,681 Speaker 3: then everyone's clapping and I looked around and there's only 674 00:36:12,761 --> 00:36:14,401 Speaker 3: one other blake that put his hand up out of 675 00:36:14,401 --> 00:36:15,761 Speaker 3: four hundred and fifty coppers. 676 00:36:15,801 --> 00:36:18,761 Speaker 1: There clever, And I thought, oo, what have I done here? 677 00:36:19,081 --> 00:36:22,561 Speaker 3: So the first blake went up and on stage, they 678 00:36:22,681 --> 00:36:24,561 Speaker 3: connected him up rather than shitting, because it was an 679 00:36:24,601 --> 00:36:26,921 Speaker 3: impact round. It would have put a golf ball size 680 00:36:27,001 --> 00:36:28,561 Speaker 3: lump on your chest if they had to hit me, 681 00:36:29,321 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 3: and instead they connected the technology with alligator clips, which 682 00:36:33,041 --> 00:36:35,561 Speaker 3: worked the same electrical exposure. 683 00:36:35,361 --> 00:36:37,001 Speaker 1: On your skin clothing. 684 00:36:37,361 --> 00:36:40,321 Speaker 2: The clothing, Yeah, that's none of the nipples or anything 685 00:36:40,401 --> 00:36:42,481 Speaker 2: like had a bit of extra pain to it. 686 00:36:42,641 --> 00:36:45,721 Speaker 1: Now I could mention, O, there is, but that was painful. 687 00:36:46,281 --> 00:36:49,561 Speaker 3: So they connected him up first, and he screamed like 688 00:36:49,641 --> 00:36:51,001 Speaker 3: a pig, like a stuff pig. 689 00:36:52,041 --> 00:36:53,881 Speaker 1: And I thought, Jesus, you know. 690 00:36:54,081 --> 00:36:56,841 Speaker 3: And even one of the girls in the office, one 691 00:36:56,841 --> 00:36:59,161 Speaker 3: of the taser girls, said, George, I was feeling so 692 00:36:59,361 --> 00:37:00,921 Speaker 3: sorry if you've happened to go up there. 693 00:37:01,401 --> 00:37:02,241 Speaker 1: Anyway, I go up. 694 00:37:02,681 --> 00:37:05,441 Speaker 3: They got this bloke on the floor, they cannect me up. 695 00:37:05,681 --> 00:37:09,001 Speaker 3: They hit me with it, and it was a different 696 00:37:09,081 --> 00:37:11,881 Speaker 3: sort of exposure. It was like waves of pain. It 697 00:37:12,041 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 3: was interesting, it was different, and I didn't make a sound. 698 00:37:16,121 --> 00:37:19,241 Speaker 3: And at the end of the five seconds, everyone is cheered, 699 00:37:19,321 --> 00:37:22,401 Speaker 3: and they put a microphone in front of me and said, 700 00:37:23,241 --> 00:37:26,481 Speaker 3: how did you feel? And I said that hurt like 701 00:37:26,561 --> 00:37:28,801 Speaker 3: how I think I might have said it hurt like shit, 702 00:37:29,001 --> 00:37:32,601 Speaker 3: you know. And he said, wa, didn't your squall at 703 00:37:32,641 --> 00:37:34,081 Speaker 3: And I said, I didn't want to let you blakes 704 00:37:34,121 --> 00:37:37,641 Speaker 3: know how much it hurt and the whole place, you know, 705 00:37:37,881 --> 00:37:41,281 Speaker 3: I just come out with you. I was the type explanation. 706 00:37:41,721 --> 00:37:44,561 Speaker 2: And then in a great moment of questionable parenting, you 707 00:37:44,641 --> 00:37:47,601 Speaker 2: got your daughter at another conference to get tased as well. 708 00:37:47,921 --> 00:37:50,721 Speaker 3: In fairness, she volunteered. She said to me, Dad, can 709 00:37:50,801 --> 00:37:54,921 Speaker 3: I get exposed to taste? And I said anyway. She said, 710 00:37:54,961 --> 00:37:58,081 Speaker 3: after I have a child, I want to get tased. 711 00:37:58,601 --> 00:38:00,641 Speaker 3: So she volunteered. No. I got her on a course 712 00:38:00,801 --> 00:38:05,121 Speaker 3: here in Melbourne forty five guys from around Australia, so 713 00:38:05,561 --> 00:38:11,161 Speaker 3: st guys, tough physically tough blakes. And they all got 714 00:38:11,201 --> 00:38:12,761 Speaker 3: on the course and early in the very early in 715 00:38:12,841 --> 00:38:15,201 Speaker 3: the course, the first couple of hours they say, okay, 716 00:38:15,521 --> 00:38:18,761 Speaker 3: we I want people to get exposed to taste. It 717 00:38:19,001 --> 00:38:21,121 Speaker 3: unlike today, not allowed to not allowed to do it 718 00:38:21,761 --> 00:38:24,681 Speaker 3: too scary, I said, I want a volunteer. My daughter 719 00:38:24,761 --> 00:38:27,481 Speaker 3: put her hand up first, and everyone's looking, and my 720 00:38:27,601 --> 00:38:31,241 Speaker 3: daughter's quite an attractive girl. She fed long blonde hair 721 00:38:31,561 --> 00:38:34,121 Speaker 3: in a pony tail, and half the blakes were looking 722 00:38:34,161 --> 00:38:36,281 Speaker 3: at her. And I was lining up a few blakes 723 00:38:36,321 --> 00:38:38,761 Speaker 3: to warn them, and one in particular came up and 724 00:38:38,801 --> 00:38:41,081 Speaker 3: he said she married, and I said, yeah, and stay away. 725 00:38:42,561 --> 00:38:47,521 Speaker 3: She volunteers and hearts. The two Americans I had out 726 00:38:47,761 --> 00:38:51,441 Speaker 3: instructors master instructors said George, you're sure about this, and 727 00:38:51,521 --> 00:38:52,801 Speaker 3: I said, yeah, she wants it. 728 00:38:53,681 --> 00:38:55,601 Speaker 1: They go, are We're going to shoot her? And I said, no, wait, 729 00:38:55,921 --> 00:38:56,481 Speaker 1: you shoot her. 730 00:38:56,841 --> 00:38:59,801 Speaker 3: So they lined her up and had a person either 731 00:38:59,881 --> 00:39:03,161 Speaker 3: side of her to help her down on the mats, 732 00:39:03,561 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 3: as was the practice, rather than let someone for because 733 00:39:05,961 --> 00:39:09,321 Speaker 3: they can hurt themselves and that's the byproduct of tasing 734 00:39:09,401 --> 00:39:14,361 Speaker 3: someone sometimes. Anyway, they exposed the five seconds, laid it down. 735 00:39:14,801 --> 00:39:17,321 Speaker 3: She sprung up on her feet, turned around and without 736 00:39:17,441 --> 00:39:21,121 Speaker 3: making a sound during the whole five seconds, turned around 737 00:39:21,121 --> 00:39:24,361 Speaker 3: and said, not as painful as childbirth, and the forty 738 00:39:24,401 --> 00:39:27,041 Speaker 3: five blakes all just dropped their chins, and you know, 739 00:39:27,481 --> 00:39:29,241 Speaker 3: every one of them got tased, and every one of 740 00:39:29,281 --> 00:39:31,881 Speaker 3: them screened, and they're all embarrassed. 741 00:39:31,441 --> 00:39:32,721 Speaker 2: And you've gone, that's my daughter. 742 00:39:32,921 --> 00:39:33,561 Speaker 1: That was funny. 743 00:39:33,841 --> 00:39:37,481 Speaker 2: Now the threats keep coming. The officers are well equipped. 744 00:39:38,081 --> 00:39:42,081 Speaker 2: We see new variants of non lethal options like bean 745 00:39:42,201 --> 00:39:44,681 Speaker 2: bags and we've got taser. What's the future is it 746 00:39:44,761 --> 00:39:49,081 Speaker 2: better decision making, better training, or bigger guns and more 747 00:39:49,321 --> 00:39:51,521 Speaker 2: sophisticated non lethal options. 748 00:39:51,921 --> 00:39:55,881 Speaker 3: A mixture better training. I can't emphasize enough. Train, train, train, 749 00:39:56,281 --> 00:39:59,681 Speaker 3: with anything and everything. Whatever you've got better alternatives in 750 00:39:59,721 --> 00:40:03,561 Speaker 3: the future. There's someone in the pipeline. But in fairness 751 00:40:03,641 --> 00:40:07,721 Speaker 3: to police agency's and what room there is on belts, 752 00:40:07,961 --> 00:40:10,561 Speaker 3: it's limited what they can introduce, and they've got what 753 00:40:10,601 --> 00:40:11,001 Speaker 3: they've got. 754 00:40:11,841 --> 00:40:13,361 Speaker 1: They just had to work with what they've got. 755 00:40:13,481 --> 00:40:15,361 Speaker 3: I mean, I started off from the police force with 756 00:40:15,441 --> 00:40:18,961 Speaker 3: a branding thirty two caliber pistol which would just bounce 757 00:40:19,001 --> 00:40:23,721 Speaker 3: off a crook with a leather jacket on. And we 758 00:40:23,841 --> 00:40:26,281 Speaker 3: had a little lead filled baton that we used to 759 00:40:27,041 --> 00:40:29,761 Speaker 3: put in our pocket with a secret pocket inside the 760 00:40:29,801 --> 00:40:32,241 Speaker 3: pocket that you kept this baton that never used it. 761 00:40:32,361 --> 00:40:33,881 Speaker 1: You'd be embarrassed if you pulled it out. 762 00:40:34,561 --> 00:40:37,321 Speaker 3: And that was it. We had to use our fists 763 00:40:37,841 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 3: in those days, which wasn't a lot of fun going 764 00:40:41,521 --> 00:40:44,281 Speaker 3: to the George Hotel and Sint Kilda, which was an 765 00:40:44,361 --> 00:40:47,081 Speaker 3: interesting exercise every time we used to go in with 766 00:40:47,161 --> 00:40:49,881 Speaker 3: the Heber coppers and police dogs and all come out 767 00:40:49,921 --> 00:40:51,121 Speaker 3: with bruises and scratches. 768 00:40:51,161 --> 00:40:53,081 Speaker 1: It's funny that kind of an. 769 00:40:53,161 --> 00:40:56,041 Speaker 2: Og kind of way. Anyway, Thanks for you Tom George. 770 00:40:56,201 --> 00:40:58,841 Speaker 2: It's a fascinating topic and I think it's tremendous that 771 00:40:58,961 --> 00:41:01,081 Speaker 2: the state police forces and the FEDS, I guess are 772 00:41:01,121 --> 00:41:04,001 Speaker 2: looking at officer safety because we've got a hugely high 773 00:41:04,081 --> 00:41:07,601 Speaker 2: level of assaults on lease, many more life threatening situations. 774 00:41:07,881 --> 00:41:10,401 Speaker 2: It's very dangerous out there and they need to be equipped, 775 00:41:10,401 --> 00:41:13,881 Speaker 2: but also they need to be trained very well. If 776 00:41:13,921 --> 00:41:17,041 Speaker 2: you've got stories for us, please get in touch. You 777 00:41:17,121 --> 00:41:19,441 Speaker 2: can send me an email Adam Shand writer at Gmail. 778 00:41:19,681 --> 00:41:23,361 Speaker 2: Maybe you've been tased, maybe you've been person who's operated 779 00:41:23,401 --> 00:41:25,721 Speaker 2: to taste. I love to hear from you. This has 780 00:41:25,801 --> 00:41:28,361 Speaker 2: been real crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host, Adam Shand, 781 00:41:28,801 --> 00:41:29,521 Speaker 2: thanks for listening.