WEBVTT - Lattouf v ABC: An entirely foreseeable catastrophe

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<v Speaker 1>From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Thursday, June twenty sixth, twenty twenty five. The ABC

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<v Speaker 1>sacked casual presenter Antoinette Latouf for her views on the

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<v Speaker 1>Israel Garza war and must pay her at least seventy

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<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars. That's the finding of Federal Court Judge Darryl Rangia,

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<v Speaker 1>in what Latouf is claiming as a victory for free speech.

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<v Speaker 1>ABC boss Hu Marx has apologized to Latouf today how

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<v Speaker 1>the National broadcaster got here.

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<v Speaker 2>I was punished for thanclar pop.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Antoinette Latouf, a media figure who sued and defeated

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<v Speaker 1>the ABC in the Federal Court of Australia. Latouf has

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<v Speaker 1>worked at multiple media outlets over a couple of decades

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<v Speaker 1>in the business, including writing columns and presenting on TV

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<v Speaker 1>and radio, and she's also got a lively social media

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<v Speaker 1>presence where she posts about issues like diversity in the media,

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<v Speaker 1>racism and feminism. After her master's attack on Israel in

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<v Speaker 1>October twenty twenty three, Latouf began posting passionately about Israel

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<v Speaker 1>and Gaza.

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<v Speaker 2>You can and should condemn both Humas and Israel's government

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<v Speaker 2>both are extremists.

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<v Speaker 1>Can These are posts on TikTok from October and November

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty three before her December shifts on ABC Sydney

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<v Speaker 1>local radio.

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<v Speaker 2>You can and should know it's a war crime to

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<v Speaker 2>cut off food, water and electricity to women, babies, and

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<v Speaker 2>the elderly. Number two pretend to be hearing impaired when

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<v Speaker 2>all major human rights organizations speak, allow me to demonstrate apartheid,

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<v Speaker 2>A party for five that sounds like they're having fun

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<v Speaker 2>in Gaza, genocide tenna side.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh that's a new sport.

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<v Speaker 3>Is it.

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<v Speaker 1>In November twenty twenty three, Latouf explained on TikTok why

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<v Speaker 1>he'd signed a petition calling on journalists to do better.

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<v Speaker 2>For me as an independent and freelance journalist and nobody

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<v Speaker 2>can fire me.

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<v Speaker 1>She said she was shocked that one media organization had

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<v Speaker 1>told journalists who'd signed the petition they couldn't report on

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<v Speaker 1>the war directly.

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<v Speaker 2>If they don't want to work with me because I

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<v Speaker 2>have voiced concerns about all of those things, then honestly

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<v Speaker 2>fuck them.

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<v Speaker 1>In December twenty twenty three, Latouf, whom the ABC says

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<v Speaker 1>had been identified as part of their bid to increase

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<v Speaker 1>the diversity of on air talent, began a five day

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<v Speaker 1>casual stint on ABC Radio Sydney, hosting the morning's program

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<v Speaker 1>while the regular host was away. Latouf said she understood

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<v Speaker 1>the assignment Bright and Breezy cats and Christmas Puddings. Three

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<v Speaker 1>days into the gig, Latouf posted this on Instagram. We've

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<v Speaker 1>used a voice actor.

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<v Speaker 2>Human Rights Watch reporting starvation as a tool of war.

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<v Speaker 1>After that post, Latouf was told she wouldn't need to

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<v Speaker 1>show up for the final two days of the stint.

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<v Speaker 1>Although she was paid, she was asked to leave the

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<v Speaker 1>ABC's ultimo premises. She took legal action for unfair dismissal.

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<v Speaker 1>Attempts at mediation failed and the matter wound up in

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<v Speaker 1>the Federal Court. On Wednesday, Justice Darryl Rangier found in

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<v Speaker 1>Latouf's favor. This is the judge's voice from his decision.

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<v Speaker 4>The respondent, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, contravened Section seven hundred

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<v Speaker 4>and seventy two Subsection one of the Fair Work Act

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<v Speaker 4>two thousand and nine by terminating the employment of the

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<v Speaker 4>applicant Antoinette Latouf for reasons including that she held a

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<v Speaker 4>political opinion opposing the Israeli military campaign in Gaza.

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<v Speaker 1>Rangia also found the ABC contravene Section fifty of the

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<v Speaker 1>Fair Work Act by taking her off air, and the

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<v Speaker 1>ABC Enterprise Agreement because it didn't follow its own disciplinary

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<v Speaker 1>procedure by allowing Latouf to defend herself on the court steps.

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<v Speaker 1>After Rangia's judgment, Latoof doubled down on the allegations about Israel.

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<v Speaker 2>It is now June twenty twenty five and Palestinian children

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<v Speaker 2>are still being staffed. Deliberately starving and killing children is a.

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<v Speaker 3>War crime today.

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<v Speaker 2>The plought is about that. Punishing someone sharing facts about

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<v Speaker 2>these war crimes.

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<v Speaker 5>Is also le.

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<v Speaker 4>O whill order that the ABC pay is latouf compensation

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<v Speaker 4>of seventy thousand dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>That seventy thousand was for emotional distress. Then it's been

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<v Speaker 1>clear from Latouf's posts she is upset. My pain and

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<v Speaker 1>my loss and my.

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<v Speaker 2>This is nothing compared to those being killed and staffed,

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<v Speaker 2>that dispossessed and dehumanized and ignored.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm one day at a time.

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<v Speaker 1>The court will come back at a later point to

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<v Speaker 1>determine a penalty for the ABC.

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<v Speaker 6>It's been a damaging episode because I suppose it stripped

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<v Speaker 6>back the curtain to show the panic, the lack of

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<v Speaker 6>leadership at the top, and the confusion within the ABC

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<v Speaker 6>about what constitutes acceptable editorial conduct.

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<v Speaker 1>James Madden is The Australian's Media editor.

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<v Speaker 6>From start to finish, the whole issue has been just

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<v Speaker 6>a sorry saga for everyone, possibly including Antoinette latof. I

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<v Speaker 6>don't think she's covered herself in glory either.

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<v Speaker 1>Does it seem to you as though anyone at the

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<v Speaker 1>ABC had read her social media content before they hired it.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, if they had, they hadn't read it closely enough,

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<v Speaker 6>or perhaps they were simply banking on her falling into line.

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<v Speaker 6>She doesn't hide her political views on her social media platforms,

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<v Speaker 6>but it's clear that her impartiality on this issue and

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<v Speaker 6>she's entitled to her opinion, but her impartiality on this

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<v Speaker 6>issue doesn't sit comfortably with the ABC's charter.

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<v Speaker 1>Given that she had been so loud and proud about

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<v Speaker 1>her views about Israel, is it fair enough for her

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<v Speaker 1>to be fairly outraged that the ABC dumped her after

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<v Speaker 1>what she thought was a fairly inconsequential post.

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<v Speaker 6>I think she's entitled to feel somewhat aggrieved by the

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<v Speaker 6>fact that she was let go three shifts into a

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<v Speaker 6>five shift contract because the evidence shows she was given

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<v Speaker 6>very confusing directions by the ABC in management as to

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<v Speaker 6>what was acceptable and what was not. That said, she

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<v Speaker 6>should have understood that those kind of posts were best

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<v Speaker 6>left to when she wasn't employed by the ABC.

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<v Speaker 1>Perhaths. Yeah, the ABC seems to have assumed that she

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<v Speaker 1>could read between the lines and that it would be

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<v Speaker 1>obvious that if you were hired to present the morning

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<v Speaker 1>show and talk about, as she said, Christmas puddings and cats,

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<v Speaker 1>that you would not be posting any content about the

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<v Speaker 1>war in Gaza, she felt. I would think it suggests

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<v Speaker 1>that she was being hired as the whole Antoinette Latouf,

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<v Speaker 1>not just a presenter. Is that fair enough? In the

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<v Speaker 1>Instagram age where she spent a lot of time creating

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<v Speaker 1>this image of herself, I.

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<v Speaker 6>Don't think it is fair enough. I think Antoinette Latouf

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<v Speaker 6>is a smart woman, has been around media organizations her

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<v Speaker 6>whole professional life. She would have clearly understood what the

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<v Speaker 6>ABC is all about. Now, whether you agree with her

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<v Speaker 6>opinion or not is not the point at all. The

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<v Speaker 6>fact is she took a political position on a sensitive

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<v Speaker 6>issue and that is not acceptable at the ABC full stop.

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<v Speaker 1>It would be hard to find an employer in Australia now,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly in the media, which doesn't have a pretty strict

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<v Speaker 1>social media policy, that you're not allowed to post things

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<v Speaker 1>that might bring the organization into disrepute. Now, that's pretty

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<v Speaker 1>vague and it's open to interpretation. I think the assumption

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<v Speaker 1>has always been that the favor would be on the

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<v Speaker 1>side of the employer and basically, I don't like something

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<v Speaker 1>you're posting, your employment might be at risk. How do

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<v Speaker 1>you think this judgment changes our perception of that what

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<v Speaker 1>is allowed now?

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<v Speaker 6>It's a thorny issue and this issue at the ABC

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<v Speaker 6>has been a massive headache for five, six, seven, eight

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<v Speaker 6>years now because for all the edicts that ABC management

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<v Speaker 6>have put about, journalists have pretty much ignored it. There's

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<v Speaker 6>dozens and dozens of examples whereby if they haven't been sanctioned,

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<v Speaker 6>they've been spoken to journalists about it, but nothing really

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<v Speaker 6>seems to happen. I think a point that has to

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<v Speaker 6>be remembered here is the ABC is the public broadcaster

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<v Speaker 6>and with that come certain obligations, one of which, whether

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<v Speaker 6>you like it or not, is to be politically impartial

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<v Speaker 6>on all political issues. That is non negotiable. It seems

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<v Speaker 6>that many journalists within the ABC aren't willing to fall

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<v Speaker 6>into line on that, and either through a desire to

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<v Speaker 6>virtual signal online or boost their own personal brand, they

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<v Speaker 6>tend to draw outside the lines on social media, and

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<v Speaker 6>the ABC hasn't come to groups with.

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<v Speaker 1>That coming up? What about item Buttros's role in the

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<v Speaker 1>whole affair. During the hearing, the court heard in evidence

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<v Speaker 1>from then managing director David Anderson that chair Ida Buttros

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<v Speaker 1>was absolutely furious that Latouf had been hired at all.

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<v Speaker 1>Texts between Anderson and Buttros were tended. We've used voice

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<v Speaker 1>actors to bring them to life.

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<v Speaker 3>Antoninette will finish up on Friday. It's a managed exit.

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<v Speaker 3>Given the situation, I can explain more tomorrow. Plan to

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<v Speaker 3>respond to all those who have emailed on Friday afternoon.

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<v Speaker 5>Why can't she come down with flu or covid or

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<v Speaker 5>stomach upset? We owe her nothing. We're copying criticism because

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<v Speaker 5>she wasn't honest when she was appointed managed exit. Really

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<v Speaker 5>we should be in damage control, not managed exit, s David.

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<v Speaker 1>The judge found Buttrose's evidence under cross examination was somewhat

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<v Speaker 1>theatrical and difficult to follow at times, but he ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>found she didn't materially contribute to the decision to take

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<v Speaker 1>Latouf off air. He said that call was made by

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<v Speaker 1>executive Chris Oliver Taylor, and the judge said he rejected

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<v Speaker 1>what Oliver Taylor said were his reasons, that he'd lost

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<v Speaker 1>trust in Latouf and that she'd breached an instruction. The

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<v Speaker 1>judge said he inferred the real reason was that Oliver

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<v Speaker 1>Taylor was trying to protect the organization and his team.

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<v Speaker 4>It can be accepted that mister Oliver Taylor was in

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<v Speaker 4>a difficult position. It was one thing for the ABC

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<v Speaker 4>to publish the HRW report as a news story, was

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<v Speaker 4>quite another for Miss Latouf, having already made social media

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<v Speaker 4>posts complained of as reflecting anti Semitic and anti Israel views,

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<v Speaker 4>to repost the story. The HRW post was bound to

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<v Speaker 4>be controversial. It was Latouf's making of the HRW post

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<v Speaker 4>was ill advised and inconsiderate of her employer. However, mister

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<v Speaker 4>Oliver Talien knew that Miss Latouf had not been given

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<v Speaker 4>any direction not to post anything about the Israel Guards

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<v Speaker 4>of War, and he had no more than a suspicion

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<v Speaker 4>that miss Latouf may have breached some editorial ABC guideline

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<v Speaker 4>or policy. Taylor sought to mitigate the anticipated delige of

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<v Speaker 4>complaints and criticism of the ABC and his team for

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<v Speaker 4>its employment of Miss Latouf following the HRW post by

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<v Speaker 4>taking her off air and quote beating the story close quote.

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<v Speaker 4>In that sense, the decision was made to appease the

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<v Speaker 4>pro Israel lobbyists who would inevitably escalate their complaints about

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<v Speaker 4>the ABC employing a presenter they perceived to have anti

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<v Speaker 4>Semitic and anti Israel opinions in such a public position.

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<v Speaker 1>The judge said that he didn't find Ida Buttro's was

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<v Speaker 1>the key decision maker. How do you think she'd be

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<v Speaker 1>feeling about that?

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<v Speaker 4>Look?

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<v Speaker 6>Ida Buttrose, from what I understand, was very by the

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<v Speaker 6>book in terms of her understanding of the role of

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<v Speaker 6>chairperson at the ABC, and she was quite strict in

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<v Speaker 6>terms of observing the duties of her role. Made her

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<v Speaker 6>feelings known within the ABC. She might have not necessarily

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<v Speaker 6>had her hands on the steering roll all the time,

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<v Speaker 6>but it was people were left in no uncertain terms

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<v Speaker 6>as to her feelings on certain matters, one of which

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<v Speaker 6>was social media use by staff as it so happens,

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<v Speaker 6>and I'm led to believe that Eita hated the way

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<v Speaker 6>a lot of journalists use social media. I think the

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<v Speaker 6>Latouf thing is quite interesting, and that she would have

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<v Speaker 6>been horrified, not only probably by the posting and the

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<v Speaker 6>activist nature of it, but by the very fact that

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<v Speaker 6>social media use had yet again come to the fore

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<v Speaker 6>when the duration of her chairmanship she'd fought so hard

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<v Speaker 6>to clamp down on it.

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<v Speaker 1>The judges granted her seventy thousand dollars for non economic loss.

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<v Speaker 1>That's less than she asked for. She asked for somewhere

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<v Speaker 1>between one hundred thousand and one hundred and fifty thousand,

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<v Speaker 1>and the reason is that he said that while she

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<v Speaker 1>clearly was distressed at having been sacked and humiliated, that

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<v Speaker 1>consuming clearly a lot of content about Gaza has also

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<v Speaker 1>made her distressed. Is it an unequivocal win for Antoinette Latouf?

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<v Speaker 6>Oh, it's a win the judge has found in her favor,

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<v Speaker 6>so it certainly to a certain extent justifies her decision

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<v Speaker 6>to take this action. Financially, I suppose it will have

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<v Speaker 6>to wait until the cost judgment, and I see this

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<v Speaker 6>morning Her gofund me page has raised more than two

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<v Speaker 6>hundred thousand dollars to assist her with her legal case.

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<v Speaker 6>Seventy thousand dollars in the context of an unlawful termination,

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<v Speaker 6>I suppose, is an a whole lot of money, but

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<v Speaker 6>perhaps for latof now, her personal brand, if you want

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<v Speaker 6>to use that phrase, is so well known that she

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<v Speaker 6>might be able to the most of some further media

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<v Speaker 6>opportunities down the track as a result of the publicity

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<v Speaker 6>of this case.

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<v Speaker 1>James, thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks Claire.

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<v Speaker 1>James Madden is The Australian's Media editor. You can read

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<v Speaker 1>his analysis and all the nation's best journalism by joining

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<v Speaker 1>us at the Australian dot com dot au