Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installment you project.
Speaker 1: It's bloody aarps in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne. It's raining,
Speaker 1: it's raining like the middle of winter here. It's cloudy,
Speaker 1: it's dark, it's it's kind of cold, and we're about
Speaker 1: three minutes away from bloody summer. What's it like in Karatha,
Speaker 1: doctor Sam?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really starting to heat up over here?
Speaker 1: Is it's the what's the I should know this? But
Speaker 1: is it is Caratha very humid or is it just hot?
Speaker 2: It's very humid? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: And so what's what's your favorite what's the most comfortable
Speaker 1: or maybe that depends that's person in person. What's your
Speaker 1: favorite time of the year? What is it winter? Is
Speaker 1: it autumn, spring, summer?
Speaker 4: That's a good one, not that it feels like we
Speaker 4: go through all the seasons, but I definitely think that
Speaker 4: September is a really good time. And April, so yeah,
Speaker 4: that's I see the best.
Speaker 1: How long does it take to drive from person to
Speaker 1: Kartha if you were going.
Speaker 2: To drive about eighteen hours?
Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah god. So that's like that's like Melbourne
Speaker 1: to Sydney and beyond. Like, yeah, Melbourne and Sydney's. That's
Speaker 1: like double more than double.
Speaker 2: Maybe you need to do it in like two days
Speaker 2: at least.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you wouldn't have you ever driven it. You
Speaker 1: wouldn't bother it, would you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because you can kind of make it like a
Speaker 4: road trip. You know, you could stop off at a
Speaker 4: few places, and yeah, I have driven it, but I
Speaker 4: definitely don't do it often because you know, to shaves
Speaker 4: off time of your trips.
Speaker 5: So so when people when people come to Karafa, do
Speaker 5: they are they overwhelmed with the heat and the humidity
Speaker 5: and you're like, what do you mean it's just Tuesday,
Speaker 5: because you're fully acclimated.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's exactly what happens. I think people kind of
Speaker 4: get shot and they're like, Wow, this is so hot,
Speaker 4: and you know, coming into the summer month, I'm like,
Speaker 4: oh this, there's nothing yet.
Speaker 2: You know, this is our cooler month. So you're right.
Speaker 4: My body definitely has like a climatized to it. Even
Speaker 4: though I grew up from pair, I definitely feel like
Speaker 4: I'm a country girl now.
Speaker 1: Des A Gal Well, thank you for getting up at
Speaker 1: stupid o'clock. As we record this, it's just after five
Speaker 1: point forty five in the morning, So clearly your a
Speaker 1: morning person. Does your brain work better in the am
Speaker 1: than the PM or neither.
Speaker 4: I've had to make myself an early person because I
Speaker 4: found that's the only way I can get any exercise done,
Speaker 4: and it really sets me out for the day. But
Speaker 4: I definitely feel like I'm a natural night ours or
Speaker 4: it's definitely a bit of a tug of war between
Speaker 4: my mind working probably better at night, but my body
Speaker 4: working better in the morning.
Speaker 1: So back in the old days, when you were a
Speaker 1: kid two years ago and you're you're doing your PhD
Speaker 1: and you're up to your eyeballs in fucking research and
Speaker 1: bullshit and long nights and stress and anxiety and submissions
Speaker 1: and all of that, when did you do your best work,
Speaker 1: like your best study, your best research, your best focus.
Speaker 2: Nine pm to twelve am.
Speaker 4: So when I yeah, when ID the first when I
Speaker 4: went back to my PhD. So I first started, and
Speaker 4: I got pregnant at the same time, you know, as
Speaker 4: you do. And so then I took actually I took
Speaker 4: a few months off and I went back and I
Speaker 4: was doing it part time, very part time. And when
Speaker 4: I went back, I had three hours like a chunk
Speaker 4: off the day where I wasn't feeding my daughter, felt
Speaker 4: like I got a three hour chunk. Usually should be feeding,
Speaker 4: you know, over two hours, but there was this one
Speaker 4: little moment where it was between nine pm and twelve am,
Speaker 4: and that's where I would do my best way. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so I definitely became the night out because of that.
Speaker 4: And it was amazing, though, how little sleep I got
Speaker 4: and how energized I felt during that period of my life.
Speaker 4: And I think it was because I just love the research,
Speaker 4: and it was, yeah, it was you know, compared to
Speaker 4: maybe you know, mums that would maybe spend that time
Speaker 4: cleaning or you know, kind of numbing out right from
Speaker 4: the day because you're exhausted. I felt like I was
Speaker 4: really recharging when I got to, you know, spend that
Speaker 4: time doing research.
Speaker 2: So I just woke up feeling great.
Speaker 1: Isn't it funny when you're doing something and it feels
Speaker 1: like your purpose or your reason or your mission more
Speaker 1: than just a requirement or a job or a thing
Speaker 1: you've got to do to create an outcome. How much
Speaker 1: more energy and excitement and enjoyment you have in that process.
Speaker 2: It feels so different.
Speaker 4: And I know when I was doing a lot of
Speaker 4: therapy with mums and they're like, I just can't fit
Speaker 4: this in my day. I'm so exhausted, you know, looking
Speaker 4: at what they were sitting their energy and time. It
Speaker 4: it is sometimes hard to explain. You know, it's not
Speaker 4: necessarily swapping out something for something, you know, it's actually
Speaker 4: like the energizing stuff, right, how much energy depleting stuff
Speaker 4: that we have on our plates as mums and then yeah,
Speaker 4: really being able to add in some of our passions
Speaker 4: and things that we actually love back and how that
Speaker 4: actually gives us more what feels like more times?
Speaker 1: Can I ask you free kid to post kid, did
Speaker 1: your body change in any way, like as in you
Speaker 1: just seem to do better on less sleep or you
Speaker 1: need more sleep? Or of course your body changed, but
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about that, but in terms of the reset,
Speaker 1: like the default setting, or do you think it's more
Speaker 1: that you're thinking in your mind and your attitudes and
Speaker 1: just your priorities changed or something else.
Speaker 4: Oh it's a good one because I got diagnosed with
Speaker 4: an audioary disease after I had my son, so I
Speaker 4: guess I potentially could have had that before though, so
Speaker 4: I wouldn't really know.
Speaker 2: But that changed.
Speaker 4: I think I became because I'm a mom, right, you
Speaker 4: know you've got limited time. I think I became a
Speaker 4: bit more of a doer than I was before because
Speaker 4: it had such limited time.
Speaker 2: And I think I actually became probably be more driven, because.
Speaker 4: Before, I guess I didn't feel like I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: you know, you've got time for that. You know eventually
Speaker 4: I'll get to that. But when you're a mom, you're like,
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, like I need to get these things done,
Speaker 4: and I want I want to do all these things.
Speaker 4: So I think, yeah, I became a bit more driven,
Speaker 4: if anything, and probably more intentional.
Speaker 6: I think with my time and my any, I feel
Speaker 6: like sometimes when we don't have to do something right,
Speaker 6: we know that we can put it off and it's
Speaker 6: probably not going.
Speaker 1: To be catastrophic. Right we go, I'll do it Monday,
Speaker 1: or i'll do it next week, or i'll do it soon,
Speaker 1: or I'll do and then sometimes that you know, tomorrow
Speaker 1: or next week or soon on January one, or whatever
Speaker 1: the date or the number is in your head, will
Speaker 1: Now we're seven years down the track, and now I'm
Speaker 1: still not doing the thing that I've been talking about doing.
Speaker 1: And for seven years I've been explaining to myself and
Speaker 1: rationalizing with myself why I don't need to do it now,
Speaker 1: and then sometimes reality, which could be you know, health,
Speaker 1: or it could be something else, but kind of punches
Speaker 1: you in the face and goes, well, now you don't
Speaker 1: have a choice. Now you've got to deal with it.
Speaker 1: Now you've backed yourself into a metaphoric corner where you
Speaker 1: can't put this off now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 4: And I think sometimes motherhood can act so create the
Speaker 4: perfect conditions for avoidance because a lot of people will say,
Speaker 4: now it's not the time, I've got young kids. I'll
Speaker 4: wait till they're older. And it actually can become harder
Speaker 4: when they're older, because it doesn't stop. You know, you
Speaker 4: become a parent to a school age childe. You've got
Speaker 4: you know those after school sports and things like that.
Speaker 4: You've got you know, teenagers, you're dropping them off places
Speaker 4: or you're helping them out with certain things. And then
Speaker 4: you've got adults and your grandparent life. So it actually
Speaker 4: doesn't stop. And when we look at these external conditions.
Speaker 2: And we realize it's it's really not about that.
Speaker 4: It's actually about how we're approaching it and how we're
Speaker 4: seeing it, and we can neither use it as fuel
Speaker 4: to get stuff done, or we can use that as
Speaker 4: almost like a barrier.
Speaker 1: Now, I don't know if this is appropriate or inappropriate,
Speaker 1: So if it's inappropriate, we'll take it out.
Speaker 2: Doc, Yeah, worried?
Speaker 1: So how long how old is your son? Firstly, he
Speaker 1: can and for how long have you been a single
Speaker 1: mom or a single parent?
Speaker 2: So three years? So when he was seven?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Is eight?
Speaker 1: So does right? So you've got and a ten year old?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Are they with you most of the time, all the time,
Speaker 1: half the time the time? Okay? Okay, okay? And so
Speaker 1: when you like and this is really common obviously, it's
Speaker 1: not not like you're a unicorners where you and your
Speaker 1: husband aren't together anymore and stuff happens and whatever. You know,
Speaker 1: people move on, people change direction in their life. Right, So,
Speaker 1: how have you had to teach the kids and talk
Speaker 1: to the kids and kind of navigate this stuff with
Speaker 1: them emotionally? And being as you're essentially a childhood specialist
Speaker 1: or a kid specialist and a psychologist, do you put
Speaker 1: on the psychology hat or do you just leave on
Speaker 1: the mum hat for that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really interesting because you kind of can fight
Speaker 4: with your brain with that because you can see things, right, yes,
Speaker 4: but yeah, you know your mum, so I think. And
Speaker 4: we've all got our own stories around that too, right,
Speaker 4: So my parents are gray when I was younger, Sae,
Speaker 4: then you've got that kind of lens that I come
Speaker 4: with too.
Speaker 2: So I think it's difficult.
Speaker 4: Because, especially being someone you know who works in the industry,
Speaker 4: there is so much that we can know, but it's
Speaker 4: also so much that's outify control, and so what do
Speaker 4: we do in those situations? Right, Well, we can see
Speaker 4: the situation, we can see things, and then it's like, well,
Speaker 4: this is what I can see, this massive bit, but
Speaker 4: I have like a slice of control here and I
Speaker 4: kind of have to have somewhat acceptance of other things.
Speaker 4: And so that's been a really good lesson for me,
Speaker 4: and that as well in really focusing again on my
Speaker 4: own growth and also knowing that their story is going
Speaker 4: to be different from my story and supporting them through that.
Speaker 4: Sometimes I think we think it's a separation or the
Speaker 4: divorce that actually harms kids, but what we know it's
Speaker 4: really the conflict and that can be in a marriage
Speaker 4: or out of the marriage, right, So it's really trying
Speaker 4: to minimize children's exposure to that, but then also knowing
Speaker 4: a lot of the pain comes from people dismissing it,
Speaker 4: right like you know, you're okay, you'll leave what two
Speaker 4: of everything or look at the bright side, just straight
Speaker 4: into kind of problem solving mode, rather than sitting with
Speaker 4: the pain and knowing that for a lot of kids, right,
Speaker 4: like the whole world's kind of fall apart, them having
Speaker 4: to rebuild, and so allowing for I think that transition
Speaker 4: was probably probably one of the most tricky bits for
Speaker 4: me and for them, right because we've got again, well
Speaker 4: we're going through different things at the time. But I
Speaker 4: think it is such a good lesson on, I would say,
Speaker 4: being able to really sit with transitions, right because this
Speaker 4: is one part a divorce, those separation, but kids will
Speaker 4: lose people in their life. That's another sense of grief
Speaker 4: and loss, and so I think these days we are
Speaker 4: trying to kind of protect kids a bit too much
Speaker 4: from that, rather than letting them go through these transitions
Speaker 4: and allowing them to sit in that pain or sit
Speaker 4: in that yeah, that that face of their life and
Speaker 4: then being.
Speaker 2: Able to find the joy within that.
Speaker 4: So I think, yeah, it's been definitely a learning experience
Speaker 4: on a lot of levels.
Speaker 1: For me, that's such an interesting and to me anyway
Speaker 1: refreshing perspective is that sometimes we've got to let the
Speaker 1: kids just sit in the pain and feel that because
Speaker 1: we're going to lose people and grief is part of life.
Speaker 1: In a time when it seems like we're trying to
Speaker 1: protect children from every possible thing all the time, any discomfort,
Speaker 1: any conflict, like so that you know, we're going to
Speaker 1: nerse their world until they're eighteen. We don't want them
Speaker 1: to have to deal with anything hard because you know,
Speaker 1: the motives are good. Of course that's a good motive.
Speaker 1: I don't want my kid to feel any pain or
Speaker 1: discomfort or but a kid that grows up never having
Speaker 1: to deal with pain or discomfort or uncertainty, you know,
Speaker 1: or any of those things, and people will go, you're
Speaker 1: not a fucking parent, I agree. But from the outside
Speaker 1: looking in, it seems like kids having to deal with
Speaker 1: hard things sometimes, you know, as long as there's a
Speaker 1: caring parent, probably not too far away. But being able
Speaker 1: to deal with hardshit is not the worst preparation for
Speaker 1: becoming an adult, for building resilience, for building understanding, for
Speaker 1: building awareness, for being able to solve problems, for being
Speaker 1: able to deal with complexity and difficulty, which is just
Speaker 1: the fucking human experience.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think you're so right on this. I
Speaker 4: see this a lot, and I even experienced this a lot,
Speaker 4: and I can see this. Oh, you know, we're torn,
Speaker 4: right because on one hand, I know that I I mean,
Speaker 4: you know, seeing a child at pain is horrible, right
Speaker 4: because you know, this is like it feels like this
Speaker 4: natural instinct to protect them and you don't want them
Speaker 4: to go through any of the hardships. But also I've
Speaker 4: noticed parents have this story attached, so it's not just
Speaker 4: like my child has failed I don't know school, it's
Speaker 4: like my child is fail school and.
Speaker 2: That means I'm a bad parent and I haven't done enough.
Speaker 4: And so they've got this other story attached, so they
Speaker 4: see a child's failure as a reflection of them. Then
Speaker 4: on the other hand, what's really difficult for me looking
Speaker 4: in is I know I've actually learned most of my
Speaker 4: things through failures. I've learned the things that look so
Speaker 4: messy probably from the outside, right, well, the times where
Speaker 4: I felt like really not down by life, I've actually
Speaker 4: learned the most and that's character building, I think, And
Speaker 4: so I very much like this version of me. But
Speaker 4: then to get this version of me, I had to
Speaker 4: go through these hard things and challenges. So yeah, how
Speaker 4: do we allow children to be able to go through
Speaker 4: those things without trying to save them, without trying to
Speaker 4: make it better, all without trying to fix it just
Speaker 4: because that makes us feel good.
Speaker 2: That will be the struggle I think for all parents.
Speaker 1: Do you think that sometimes our intended or our intention
Speaker 1: to protect them could be unintentionally harming them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, definitely, And that's the problem.
Speaker 4: People think, well, I've got a good intention about this,
Speaker 4: But I think when we focus on that too much.
Speaker 2: It's almost like we lose perspective.
Speaker 4: So, for example, I think if I was my daughter
Speaker 4: when I started my PhD, and I think if I
Speaker 4: didn't go through that process, right, the messiness of sitting
Speaker 4: in front of a flaking paper and not knowing what
Speaker 4: to write, and probably having my own little versions of
Speaker 4: adult tantrums, I don't think I would have been able
Speaker 4: to sit with, say when they're trying to figure out
Speaker 4: a you know, their own school work for example, their
Speaker 4: own struggles. And so I think, what we need to
Speaker 4: do and be able to get those perspectives. If, for example,
Speaker 4: wild about resilience is do hard things as a parent,
Speaker 4: start to work on your own goals, start to challenge
Speaker 4: yourself with things that you think you can't do, and
Speaker 4: so you'll see this other version of yourself come out,
Speaker 4: which is one that is like.
Speaker 2: Okay, this is difficult, this is tough.
Speaker 4: And so then we're able to, I guess, create more
Speaker 4: space for children to be able to have those challenges
Speaker 4: as well.
Speaker 2: And it's not even a time issue.
Speaker 4: Like if you really were to sit with yourself as
Speaker 4: a parent and say, ten minutes a day, I'm going
Speaker 4: to focus on my passion, ten minutes a day, I'm
Speaker 4: going to focus on content or you know, studying or whatever, you'll.
Speaker 2: Still see how hard that is.
Speaker 4: Like everyone can find ten minutes, but it is hard
Speaker 4: to do hard things. But I think we definitely lose
Speaker 4: perspective when we are focusing our whole lives on our
Speaker 4: children and like I need to give them all the
Speaker 4: opportunities so that they can have the best life. We
Speaker 4: don't build the resilience and do we because we're trying
Speaker 4: to orchestrate it all for them.
Speaker 1: We're trying to micromanage every minutes and mitigate every potential
Speaker 1: danger and solve every problem before the problem arises. And
Speaker 1: then the kid doesn't know how you know, to be
Speaker 1: able to deal with the hard stuff because they've never
Speaker 1: had to. Maybe that's the outcome, or maybe is more inherent.
Speaker 1: But I feel like, you know, like with grown ups,
Speaker 1: I deal with grown ups way more. But you know,
Speaker 1: when I want to help someone with a problem or
Speaker 1: a challenge of grown up, I know that even if
Speaker 1: five people have got the same problem, I need to
Speaker 1: approach it five different ways because I've got five different
Speaker 1: humans with five different backgrounds and mindsets and levels of
Speaker 1: understanding and resilience. And so even trying to solve or
Speaker 1: at least address the same issue, generally one have the
Speaker 1: exact same antidote or solution.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's a good point, and I think sometimes different
Speaker 4: skills are needed for different times. So perfect example of this,
Speaker 4: right is of course, play therapy. So we think about
Speaker 4: the kids, right like, sometimes we're in situations where they
Speaker 4: are faced with a problem, We're like, okay, what can.
Speaker 2: We do, Let's try this? How about this?
Speaker 4: But then there's times, and especially in play, where we
Speaker 4: have the space to do this right, we're not trying
Speaker 4: to rush out the door or at eight am to
Speaker 4: get to school. Well, we have time to sit with
Speaker 4: it and allow them to find their own problem solving.
Speaker 4: So a perfect example of this right is a child
Speaker 4: wanting to create, say a car out of the cardboard box.
Speaker 4: Now what we learn as in a teaching kind of perspective, right,
Speaker 4: We'll say they'll say, you know, I want to build
Speaker 4: this car, and you'll be like, oh, I have the
Speaker 4: best thing for this. I've got red paint here, I've
Speaker 4: got a you know, paper plate. We could use a
Speaker 4: steering wheel. How about we you know, do these wheels.
Speaker 4: And every time they come up with something, we're going
Speaker 4: to try and make it better. Okay, we're kind of
Speaker 4: filling the gaps with that, but with the child's centered
Speaker 4: play therapy, those kind of skills. When we're sitting with
Speaker 4: the child, the child will say I want to build
Speaker 4: a red car. And so we're sitting there and we're like, okay,
Speaker 4: sounds like you've got a plan, and they're like, but
Speaker 4: I don't know what to do with the wheels. You
Speaker 4: might say, hmm, you seem a bit stuck.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what to do next.
Speaker 4: Do you see how I'm not fixing out, I'm reflecting back.
Speaker 4: So I'm reflecting back the content of what they're doing.
Speaker 4: I'm reflecting back the feeling. I might even reflect back
Speaker 4: the effort. Right, you know, you're trying really hard to
Speaker 4: figure this next bit out and then I'm pausing. And
Speaker 4: so what that allows them is space to think about
Speaker 4: this their own internal voice.
Speaker 2: Now they may come up with a solution that we.
Speaker 4: Think, oh my god, that's not going to work, or
Speaker 4: you know, we could have used something else better, But hey,
Speaker 4: we're sitting with that and we're letting that play out.
Speaker 4: And that is so hard for us adults because we
Speaker 4: lead the problem solving bit and we can see this vision.
Speaker 4: What we're not allowing them to do is to go
Speaker 4: through their own what would you call it experimenting right
Speaker 4: with things like let them experience it not working out,
Speaker 4: or let them experience a substandard version of what you
Speaker 4: thought that car was, because guess what the next bit
Speaker 4: is actually them playing a character with that car, and
Speaker 4: that is what they're trying to get to. It's probably
Speaker 4: a lot of the time not so much about the car,
Speaker 4: but actually what that car was intended to do in
Speaker 4: the place. So I think that's a really good example
Speaker 4: of again giving spaces where we have the time and
Speaker 4: the space to actually allow their own internal kind of concepts.
Speaker 2: To come out.
Speaker 1: I love that so much. I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: as the parent or the adult, or the teacher, even
Speaker 1: even adults. Working with adults is like to create a
Speaker 1: context or an environment or a situation where they have
Speaker 1: to solve the problem. So you're kind of giving them
Speaker 1: an opportunity to lean into critical thinking. And so we're
Speaker 1: trying to teach kids how to think, not to tell
Speaker 1: them what to think right, how to think for themselves,
Speaker 1: not become a version of us the teacher.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the critical thinking is huge we think about
Speaker 4: in this day and age with school, they don't focus
Speaker 4: as much on critical thinking because you know, it's like
Speaker 4: the spelling and the grammar. And because I've gone through
Speaker 4: this process, I'm focusing on my critical thinking.
Speaker 2: I can see that.
Speaker 4: So, you know, when my daughter's showing me a story
Speaker 4: right that she's getting out for school, I can easily
Speaker 4: ignore the spelling and grammar. I mean, she's probably a
Speaker 4: lot better at that than me anyway. But I'm looking
Speaker 4: at the critical thinking. So I think when we foster
Speaker 4: that within ourselves, we understand what, you know, the goal
Speaker 4: should be, and then we're able to kind of mute
Speaker 4: out the rest.
Speaker 1: I think part of the issue is that we are
Speaker 1: inundated with stuff, with information, with ideas, with content, you know,
Speaker 1: by creators. And that's not a bad thing, that's just
Speaker 1: the situation we're in. And so I think a lot
Speaker 1: of times we just accept stuff. You know, we go, oh,
Speaker 1: like when someone says to me, which I get a
Speaker 1: fair bit, I've done my research and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: I go, okay, what was that research? And what they're
Speaker 1: telling me is I watched a YouTube video. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean that's their research. I'm like, all right, so, and
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to be condescending or ready you just
Speaker 1: go cool, So you watched a YouTube video by a
Speaker 1: bloke or a lady who got in front of camera
Speaker 1: and said stuff. So you just heard someone else say stuff.
Speaker 1: That isn't research. That's just you watching something that may
Speaker 1: or may not be true. That's not you thinking critically,
Speaker 1: that's you adopting someone else's thinking. That you memorize something
Speaker 1: and then redistributing that to your social kind of sphere.
Speaker 1: As data or you know, it's like, no, that's the
Speaker 1: opposite of critical thinking. That makes you almost like an
Speaker 1: unconscious passenger in their court thought cult, you know, where
Speaker 1: you like, now, what they're saying could be true, but
Speaker 1: fucking lean into it. I read this. I read this.
Speaker 1: Somebody sent me this research and it said they were
Speaker 1: talking about they talked, oh, that's right. They were talking
Speaker 1: about the benefits of hanging right, so you know, just
Speaker 1: hanging from a chin bar, which, by the way, hanging
Speaker 1: from a chin bar can be quite good. And they
Speaker 1: were talking about how amazing it is for like spinal
Speaker 1: issues and decompression of the spine and you know, like
Speaker 1: lumbar bulges and all these disc problems and all this shit, right,
Speaker 1: And obviously I'm an XI scientist, so I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe, And then it quotes this research from the
Speaker 1: Mayo Clinic in twenty nineteen. I'm like, well, this is
Speaker 1: at least there's you know, it's like and one of
Speaker 1: the things was surgeons now spinal surgeons are now telling
Speaker 1: people not to have surgery and to do this. I'm like, well, fuck,
Speaker 1: they're not doing that, that's bullshit, right. So then I
Speaker 1: went so I read this thing that someone sent me
Speaker 1: and they went, you'll like this and it's research based datata.
Speaker 1: Then I went to find the research. The research doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: It was all AI generated bullshit. So even something that
Speaker 1: someone said me sent me that had these references alleged references,
Speaker 1: when I did a deep dive, it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this research done at the Mayo Clinic in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: and I spent twenty minutes trying to it doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: That research doesn't exist.
Speaker 4: So and yeah, and so this is what's really hard
Speaker 4: that with research, as you know, we could see research
Speaker 4: that supports the other side, and so then we actually
Speaker 4: have to use critical thinking to make it, you know,
Speaker 4: make a decision. And so a lot of parents, I think,
Speaker 4: get really stuck with this because they're like, what does
Speaker 4: the research say? And then they're getting pulled from every
Speaker 4: direction and they're just not allowing enough time for critical
Speaker 4: thinking and going actually, what with all these things there?
Speaker 2: What's it right with you?
Speaker 4: With challenging like your bias and your assumptions and the
Speaker 4: stories that we tell ourselves, like it's sometimes we'll only
Speaker 4: find research is for what we want to see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, confirmation bias, the old their coach chamber, you know.
Speaker 1: And the thing is too, It's like you might go, oh, well,
Speaker 1: what we know is that, you know, most elite basketballers
Speaker 1: are taller than six for six, and you go, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I'm six' one, okay, fin's you know. And then you go, oh,
Speaker 1: but also, well that is true, but also there are
Speaker 1: basketballers that are under six foot that are fucking amazing
Speaker 1: and playing the NBA and the NBL and a world
Speaker 1: class and have representing their country at the Olympics. And
Speaker 1: oh so it's not you know, exclusively this or that.
Speaker 1: You know. So I think that realizing that a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of data and a lot of these
Speaker 1: kind of numbers that get thrown around or this information
Speaker 1: is often more indicative than it is conclusive, if not
Speaker 1: complete bullshit at times.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I feel like the more that we can
Speaker 4: just focus on the extent or right, we forget our
Speaker 4: own data that we may be gathering about ourselves or
Speaker 4: own patterns and being able to actually reflect on those,
Speaker 4: because I think that they're actually a lot more helpful
Speaker 4: sometimes in the way that we then go, what's our
Speaker 4: next step? Okay, well, let's look at what we been doing.
Speaker 4: Is that really waking for us, Okay, what do we
Speaker 4: need to tweak and change rather than trying to find
Speaker 4: this extental like give me the answer and then it's
Speaker 4: not still sitting right.
Speaker 1: What's the difference for you as a teacher and as
Speaker 1: a psychologist, or as an educator and a psychologist. What
Speaker 1: is the difference between learning and memorizing information?
Speaker 2: Because learning I feel.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, sorry, shut up, no, you go go.
Speaker 4: I don't think we're learning. I thought that's a critical
Speaker 4: thinking that we were talking about. The memorizing, which often
Speaker 4: schools really focus on piece of stuff where you're just
Speaker 4: trying to regurgitate information but you don't quite understand it.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, or even if you do understand it, it's like,
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying there should be no none of that.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, yeah, it's like all of these things
Speaker 1: I think are worth putting under the spotlight. And sometimes
Speaker 1: people push back and it's like, why are you anti educational?
Speaker 1: I'm definitely not, like I'm literally in the education system literally,
Speaker 1: but I think it's worth just questioning. It's like, I'm
Speaker 1: sure with your daughter who's eight and your son who's ten,
Speaker 1: if you you wanted to teach them both something. Depending
Speaker 1: on the something and the situation, you might teach them
Speaker 1: differently because you know they don't think the same or
Speaker 1: respond the same or learn the same.
Speaker 4: Oh, definitely the way that they learns different. And their
Speaker 4: interests in the curiosity. And I think for me, when
Speaker 4: I look at like they learning or teaching, it's I like,
Speaker 4: the curiosity tell me, show me something that a child
Speaker 4: will focus on that little bit longer than others, right,
Speaker 4: that they're interested in They've got a question about something,
Speaker 4: they notice something, and then you follow that lead.
Speaker 2: I think that that's just such a.
Speaker 4: More forganic way rather than going now we're learning this,
Speaker 4: or you should learn this. It's like, wow, you're actually
Speaker 4: interested in that, let's like follow that through. I think
Speaker 4: that's where the critical thinking can come in. That's where
Speaker 4: the passions, right, you're really fostered during that within them.
Speaker 1: We kind of touched on before the fact that we
Speaker 1: want kids to be able to deal with life all
Speaker 1: the practical messy, good and bad peaks and trust fair
Speaker 1: and unfair because that's life. Life's fair, Life's unfair. You know,
Speaker 1: bad things happen to good people. We get all of that.
Speaker 1: So how do we keep our kids safe in inverted
Speaker 1: commas while creating an environment or a context or a
Speaker 1: situation where they can build resilience, like where they can
Speaker 1: fall down but not kill themselves.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I guess it's so tricky because there are
Speaker 4: obviously so like safety conscious these days, and for very
Speaker 4: good reason. I think it's if you could imagine and
Speaker 4: we can talk about you know, I don't know, the
Speaker 4: school environment or educcasionally or whatever, right, I think the
Speaker 4: focus becomes on a child falling down, parents get caught up,
Speaker 4: and that we're trying to stop that, rather than going,
Speaker 4: how can we cover from this really quick? I got
Speaker 4: a train on a train track? You know, Okay, we're
Speaker 4: off track? How can we get back on track?
Speaker 2: Like? What what does that look like?
Speaker 4: And the first part about that is to acknowledge you're
Speaker 4: off track, And a lot of parents skip that right
Speaker 4: because they're like, let's just get back on track really quickly,
Speaker 4: or why do we even get off the track of
Speaker 4: the first place. We need to prevent this from ever
Speaker 4: happening again, rather than going you got off track, Like,
Speaker 4: let's sit with that. You got off track, that's normal,
Speaker 4: That's okay, all right? Now, what do we need to
Speaker 4: do to get on track. So I think it's just
Speaker 4: being able to to sit with that, but then yeah,
Speaker 4: being able to continue on. And I think the issue
Speaker 4: with the resilience is what we think resilience should be.
Speaker 4: And if you think about I mean me, I could
Speaker 4: say I think their blood learns so much about resilience
Speaker 4: from just going through the PhD and knowing a lot
Speaker 4: of people would say, well, you're resilient.
Speaker 2: Was that you've got it, But if you.
Speaker 4: Were to see me doing it, most of the time
Speaker 4: I was struggling like most with me struggling right, me
Speaker 4: not knowing what to do, me wanting to quit, me
Speaker 4: not seeing a way out of it. And then obviously
Speaker 4: after those points I then found away. And so it
Speaker 4: was a lot messier than what I thought. And when
Speaker 4: I look back at, say, my school years, maybe it
Speaker 4: looks probably like I didn't care.
Speaker 2: It looked like I wasn't trying.
Speaker 4: It looked like I I probably wasn't even aiming high
Speaker 4: enough at all. And that's because it's that fear of failure, right,
Speaker 4: And a lot of kids will do that. A lot
Speaker 4: of kids you'll see and they're like they're not resilient
Speaker 4: because they're not even trying, or they just give up
Speaker 4: so easily. It's because they don't know how to come
Speaker 4: back from failure. They're too scared to fail in the
Speaker 4: first place.
Speaker 2: So I think the more we.
Speaker 4: Can have these stories so people actually succeeding, but part
Speaker 4: of that success was failing so much. You know, there's
Speaker 4: like famous authors, you know, JK. Rowling, all of those
Speaker 4: kind of stories. I think you're really helpful because then
Speaker 4: we realized, actually part of every one of these stories
Speaker 4: is struggle. It's failure, like that's normal, it's just not really.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. And it's like, you think about so
Speaker 1: the hard stuff you went through doing your PhD. You know,
Speaker 1: relationship ending so navigating that or the psychological emotional I
Speaker 1: guess financial practical stuff around that. Then you know, raising
Speaker 1: or co raising your kids with your ex and then
Speaker 1: trying to build a business like you've done and then
Speaker 1: trying to you know, like, it's in that pain, and
Speaker 1: it's in that uncertainty, and it's in that discomfort, and
Speaker 1: it's in that unfamiliarity that you develop the capacity to
Speaker 1: survive and thrive. But if everything had been just a
Speaker 1: straight line, easy, like no peaks and troughs, just like
Speaker 1: this beautiful linear every day was fucking Disneyland. When the
Speaker 1: shit hits the fan, which it always will, at some stage,
Speaker 1: you're in trouble because you haven't had to deal with
Speaker 1: anything hard. But you've done such good work in the
Speaker 1: middle of the hard that I'm sure your level of
Speaker 1: resilience and your capacity is way better than it was
Speaker 1: ten years ago, very.
Speaker 4: Much so, because what you learn to then realize is
Speaker 4: like there or will never be perfect conditions or what
Speaker 4: I thought was perfect, you know, perfect conditions, actually say
Speaker 4: wasn't or isn't. So then what do I do. Do
Speaker 4: I wait for my life to be perfect at all
Speaker 4: those things? Or do I find these moments of joy
Speaker 4: or find these moments of being able to practice out
Speaker 4: values within this right? And I think a lot of
Speaker 4: the time we don't, like you said, get enough opportunity.
Speaker 4: It's almost like going, I'll start the exercise routine in
Speaker 4: the new year when I can get a gym membership
Speaker 4: and I have time to do an hour long workout,
Speaker 4: rather than going I'm on holiday right now, I can
Speaker 4: actually go do ten push ups, like in the lounge room.
Speaker 4: Like that's sometimes it's as simple as that, Right, And
Speaker 4: So I think when things change and transition in your
Speaker 4: life and you go through how stuff, you realize, Okay,
Speaker 4: I could wait for the storm to pass to do
Speaker 4: the things, or I could actually find ways within these
Speaker 4: imperfect conditions to live the life that I want to
Speaker 4: be who I say I am right and practice these things.
Speaker 4: And I think that's where the challenge is. But that's
Speaker 4: honestly where the growth is to do it imperfectly and
Speaker 4: to realize that's probably how it's always going to be
Speaker 4: like in some ways right for us, not perfect conditions,
Speaker 4: but if we can learn to do it in imperfect conditions,
Speaker 4: then we can do in any condition.
Speaker 2: So how greats are?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting, Like you talk, we talk about
Speaker 1: resilience a bit, and Paul Taylor, who's a regular on
Speaker 1: this show, wrote a book called I Think It's the
Speaker 1: Hardiness Effect. You know, it's all in the virtually in
Speaker 1: the same space. They're related, and you know, the bottom
Speaker 1: line is doing doing life in the middle of uncertainty
Speaker 1: and all of the things that I talk about, and
Speaker 1: the mess and the pain. But you can't get good
Speaker 1: at what you're not doing right, So you can read,
Speaker 1: you can read all you want about resilience. You can read, like,
Speaker 1: you can read a hundred books on the piano, but
Speaker 1: you can't play the piano until you sit at the
Speaker 1: fucking piano and start touching the keys, right.
Speaker 2: You can't exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can read all the tennis books on how
Speaker 1: to have a great fourhand backhand outside your opponent, but
Speaker 1: but you've still got to get on the fucking tennis
Speaker 1: court with a racket and an opponent. And it's the theory,
Speaker 1: it's like, and that's what that's the beauty, And I
Speaker 1: guess limitation of podcasts, the beauty is you and me,
Speaker 1: good conversation, hopefully lots of ideas and thoughts and stories
Speaker 1: and information that people can potentially do something with, operationalized activate,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 3: But the limitation is for many that they'll never fucking
Speaker 3: do anything with what they hear. And it's the same
Speaker 3: self help in general, personal developing, general development in general,
Speaker 3: behavioral psychology, like how many people know what to do
Speaker 3: but don't do what they know And it.
Speaker 4: Becomes information overload in this day and age too, right,
Speaker 4: because we can listen to audiobooks and we can you know,
Speaker 4: summarize information, We can read all this things so far,
Speaker 4: and then where the implementation where the action? And I
Speaker 4: think often it's because we are looking for this perfect
Speaker 4: accent or this perfect plan, and it's then it's just
Speaker 4: taking this, like what is the next step I can do?
Speaker 4: Like what can I this imperfect next step from what
Speaker 4: I've just learned to be able to Because ultimately, like
Speaker 4: you said, that's that's kind of where the change is
Speaker 4: since the action, it's not what we know at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So it's good talking to you, Doc. Thank
Speaker 1: you for getting up at stupid o' clock over there
Speaker 1: on the other side of the country. You're going away
Speaker 1: on a holiday. We won't say are we allowed to
Speaker 1: stay where? But next week you're going away.
Speaker 2: For a Yes, I am. I'm going away next week,
Speaker 2: so that'd be great.
Speaker 1: Well, you enjoy that, you enjoy your trip, and I'll
Speaker 1: say goodbye. We'll say goodbye af fair. But oh, before
Speaker 1: you go, how can people find you and connect with
Speaker 1: you and other educators and other people in the space
Speaker 1: that you're in. How can they see what you do
Speaker 1: and maybe connect with some of your resources.
Speaker 4: On www dot doctor Samcasey dot com or on Instagram
Speaker 4: at doctor Samcasey. I share a lot of those. A
Speaker 4: little therapeutic playtips as well on my page.
Speaker 1: You're the best.
Speaker 2: Thanks Doc, thank you.