WEBVTT - The fight for Dan Duggan - Part 2: The extradition battle 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.240 This is part two of a two part episode. If 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.440 you haven't already, go back and take a listen to 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:07.400 our first episode. 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:10.360 Free Dan Duggle, Free Dan Duggy. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:14.200 For years, Dan Duggan's case has turned on one question 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:18.480 after another, what happened in South Africa, what he knew, 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:22.600 and whether, as an Australian citizen, the United States has 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.720 the right to prosecute him at all. But by the 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.479 time his case reached the Federal court this year, the 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:32.760 fight was about something more immediate, whether Australia would let 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:33.199 him go. 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:36.360 Our government should make it clear that being an Australian 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:40.080 citizen matters, and then when another country comes for you, 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:43.000 they'll protect you as best they can, and they'll protect 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:44.240 your family, they'll protect. 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:44.400 Your asc it. 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:52.800 I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM Today 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:57.640 journalist Michael Sainsbury and saffaring Duggan on why they believe 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:02.480 the Australian government really Approvedan's extradition and how his supporters 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.120 came to see the case as part of a wider 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:12.360 struggle between the United States and China. It's Monday, April 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:21.160 twenty seven. Michael, Could you take us inside this recent 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.959 extradition hearing what happened in court, So the. 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.960 Recent extradition hearing was challenge to the extradition that Mark 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:32.120 dreyfus had signed off for a year earlier. As you know, 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:32.960 things take a while. 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.680 It's court an Australian man who served as a US 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.640 fighter pilot. He's set to face court in the US 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:46.039 after his extradition was approved by Federal Attorney General Mark Dreyfusi. 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.080 Chans Lori has argued that the offenses that he was 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.480 charged with were not offenses in Australia at the time 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.640 that the allegations were made. 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.880 The main tank of his case that's just been decided 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:03.360 on really focuses around the idea that in order to 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:07.120 be extradited, the offense for which of which you're accused 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.800 needs to be an offense in Australia and in the 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.560 United States Dan is accused of. 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:17.400 Australia did not have explicit comparable laws about training foreign 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:22.600 militaries until twenty eighteen, and then we updated that again 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.360 in twenty twenty one to make it even more explicit. 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:28.480 But that's six years after the case. 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:30.919 Dan was arrested in twenty twenty two, and at which 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.360 time it was then possible to say that the historic 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.799 activities were now an offense in Australia. So Dan really 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.000 would have had to be a clairvoyant at the time 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:42.000 that he was giving this training to know that in 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:46.720 the future it was going to render him subject to extradition. 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:48.720 So what that is is it really has the effect 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:52.720 of making the Extradition Act a retroactive act, and that 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.040 means that Australian citizens can do something that's legal today, 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:58.560 it may become illegal in a few years time and 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:01.800 they run the risk of being and extradited to a 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.720 foreign country and tried under the foreign country's laws. 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.280 Regardless of all of that, though the Federal Court rejected 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:09.760 the argument why did they do that? 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:10.240 Are? 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.920 They rejected on a very literal approach and I think 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:15.840 you often find with the single judge on the Federal 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:18.800 Court that they will do that. And the difficulty with 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:23.920 international law is quite often treaties overlay treaties which overlay 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:28.240 underlying local legislation self a little bit kind of complicated, 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:30.320 and you end up going to kind of the black litter. 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:30.640 Of the law. 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:32.920 The hearing was all over in a matter of minutes. 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:36.960 The judge essentially threw out the family's application, which was 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.640 based on legal arguments relating to the extradition. The judge 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.680 also ordered that the dug and family paid legal costs, 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:45.680 and that is a huge blow in itself. 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.160 So if Dan Duggan is said to the US, what 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:52.920 would he face? What could happen there? 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:56.120 If he goes to the US. The way the charges 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.560 have been stacked up, there's a maximum of sixty five 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.160 years each of these counts. I think there's three of 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:07.040 them carry a sentence up to twenty years each. Other 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:08.720 people have said, you know, why doesn't he just go 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:10.119 in and fight the charges there? 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:11.720 Would he? 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.680 He's an Australian citizen. He should prosecute every option under 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:19.320 the Australian legal systems available to him before he goes 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:23.960 and puts himself in the hands of a foreign legal system. 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.520 That why we're sending somebody off to face a legal 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:29.200 system in the US. It's falling apart. 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.479 Do you think there's any similarities with this case and 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:34.440 Julian Assange. 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:39.640 There are obviously similarities because they're Australian citizens who the 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.279 US is trying to get their hands on. It's interesting 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.600 with Julian sign the US sent a whole team of 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.120 lawyers over to England and to wherever he ended up 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.840 getting led off, some small island in the Pacific. But 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:57.560 for Dan's case, the US have got the Australian taxpayer 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:02.559 through the Attorney General's Department to prosecute the US's case. 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:07.360 So Australian taxpayers have been paying to try and get 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.000 Dan extra to the US for something that if you 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.679 did do it, it was an Australian citizen at the time 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.640 and the US should really have any jurisdiction over him. 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.440 The court case is one part of this, but in 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.480 the end it is the Australian government who decides whether 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:26.200 dug It will be extradited. So why have they chosen 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.000 to do it? And what are they saying about it publicly? 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.280 They're not saying anything publics that have been very, very 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:37.000 very it's all been very process driven. It's been driven 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.279 very much by the Attorney General's Department. 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:45.000 Could I ask what, what, if any role your department 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:55.440 has had in the extradition proceedings and incarceration of Daniel Togm. 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.680 So the department's responsible for the Extradition Act and handling 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.000 of the United States extradition requests. 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.400 When your department receives an extradition request, do you do 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.200 a due diligence to determine whether or not the offense 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:13.599 which founds the extradition requests has a comparable offense under 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:17.040 Australian law? Is that part of a due diligence process 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:18.599 when you receive an extradition request. 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:24.160 I'll get Musimberg to speak about this matter. But there 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:28.760 was a provisional arrest request in the first instance, and 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.919 we do consider dual criminality. Ultimately that is a matter 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:36.400 that is considered by a magistrate, and it is before 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:37.000 a magistrate. 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.160 Yeah, we're very close to the US. I think that 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.400 there's a feeling that we don't want to upset them 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:47.119 and this is just, in their eyes, just a little 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.200 case that it's not worth poking their neck up for. 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:55.480 And we have raised the case of mistress change at 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.920 all levels of government, and we've used all of our 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:02.760 diplomatic efforts at every level. 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.960 In the end, Albanez, you did apply diplomatic pressure in 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.440 the Assantaige case, but you know that was a very big, 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:15.760 loud public case. This isn't so much and doesn't seem 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.280 like they feel like wasting any political capital to look 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.280 after an Australian citizen, which is I think is a 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:26.240 bit of a distress. At any point, the Attorney General 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.640 can get rid of this, They can just say no. 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:35.960 The side of the we're not going to extradide. 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:39.040 Coming up is a geopolitical contest between the US and China. 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:51.800 What's really driving this case. Michael Duggan and his supporters 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.480 say that this is much bigger than one man that's 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.080 caught in a geopolitical battle over China. 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:02.200 He's being used as a pawn in an ideologic war 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:07.120 between the United States and China, and the Australian government 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.080 agencies have allowed this to happen as willing participants. 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.640 Would you agree with that or how seriously should we 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:16.640 take a claim like that? 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.360 Look, I think that's true. Is certainly in the initial 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.200 writing of the indictment. That was certainly a time when 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.000 the US, particularly but other people in the West were 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.200 starting to get worried about much more worried about China politically. 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.360 Turned now to the case of two Chinese American scientists 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:36.080 accused of espionage. Last year, the United States federal agents 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.760 arrested Shi Shao Seng, the chairman of Temple University's physics Department. 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.360 They knew that there was a lot of former military 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.600 people out there doing things that they didn't necessarily want 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:50.480 them to do. So there was a concerted effort by 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.640 the US and eventually the UK and in Australia to 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.080 try and wind all this back and pull it. In 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.360 Dan's case, it had already started. The process as started, 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.960 and there's no reason for the US to halt the process. 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.360 But there's a big reason for US to halt the 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.120 process because if this can happen to Dan, it can 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.959 happen to a lot of other Australians. If we put 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:17.160 Australians in jeopardy and are prepared to hand them across 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.920 to a foreign legal system for things that they did 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.000 a long time ago that weren't crimes here, you know, 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:28.120 it opens a floodgate for foreign governments to be able 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.040 to reach into our legal system and interfere with it. 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.880 So, Michael, what is the next stage of this case, 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.640 what happens next? And what is really at stake here? 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:39.679 What's the big picture? 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.000 A man's life is at stake. That's surely that should 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.760 be enough. But in terms of what happens next, the 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.240 extradition has now been improved again by the court, but 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:55.240 there's an automatic right to an appeal to the full 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:59.480 bench of the Federal Court within twenty eight days. So 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:04.760 Dan's lawyers are obviously giving every consideration to that. Beyond 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.800 that is the possibility of an appeal to the High Court. 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.560 Those are the things that are being thought about at 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.120 the moment. It does stand appeal or do they decide 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.720 to take their chances in the US. 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.360 Suffering? How long will you and Dan keep fighting it? 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:34.640 We will continue to pursue every avenue available. This is 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.480 a family that we are. I'm going to keep together 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.280 and we will keep going on. It will not break us, 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.400 and we will continue down every avenue we possibly can. 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:50.720 But it's devastating having to tell the children that your 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:54.199 father's not coming home. At the moment, majority of adults 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.440 can't understand what's going on, so how can you explain 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:02.800 it to a child. We are a type family. We 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.840 do not give up. We never give up. We follow 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.800 the next step and we just continue to stay together 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.200 and pursue every avenue that we possibly can. 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.120 What is the message that you have to the Australian government. 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.800 What would you say to them about Dan and about 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:22.079 how they're handling the case. 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:29.480 I'm so disappointed in our government. I feel like I'd 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:37.160 get no answers. It's been going on long enough. It 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:43.560 is at the bequest of another country, and. 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:42.600 I feel like. 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.959 No one's trying to help us. They just want it 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.400 all to go away. No one's trying to help. I 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.880 hardly get any responses back. It takes months and months 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.520 to get a response back from our government or Attorney 0:11:55.520 --> 0:12:02.400 General if any. I think the message that I get 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.680 from them is that they can't do anything, and that 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.240 is incorrect. The Attorney General and the Prime Minister can 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:15.520 overturn this at any moment, so to give the message 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:19.360 that it's in court continually is not good enough. You're 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:21.680 at a very high ranking, you run our country, and 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:27.000 it's not good enough for me, an Australian citizen to 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.679 not be able to address something as big as this, 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:36.560 and especially in our world today, you know. And the 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:41.760 hardest things here are you know, is that I feel 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:46.600 like I've lost all ability to dream, to look forward 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.640 to book the next holiday. 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:53.000 That's hard. 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:55.760 It's hard not knowing where you're going to be in 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:57.640 the next day, where you're going to be in the 0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.920 next week, where you're going to be in the next month. 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:02.720 Living Groundhog Day is hard. 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:08.440 It's the uncertainty, yeah, and that's what breaks everyone, the 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:14.680 uncertainty suffering. Thank you so much for speaking with us. 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:15.800 Thank you. 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:36.200 Also in the news, world leaders including Anthony Albanesi have 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.680 condemned an act of political violence after the White House 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:44.400 correspondence dinner was interrupted by gunfire. The president evacuated as 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:48.240 guests hit under tables. Police say the suspected gunman charged 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:52.200 through a Secret Service checkpoint armed with multiple guns and knives. 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:55.599 One officer was shot but was saved by his bulletproofest. 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:58.760 Donald Trump says the Secret Service did a better job 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.200 protecting him than the fascination attempt in twenty twenty four 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.840 and Angus Taylor has called out coordinated booing at Anzac 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.480 Day ceremonies in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth, while at the 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:15.439 same time sympathizing with those behind the booze. The opposition 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.359 leader says he feels welcome to countries have been overused 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:21.400 and he would like to see them use less. There 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.720 are calls from indigenous leaders for those responsible to be named, 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:29.480 photographed and banned from future Anzac Day services. Thanks for 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:31.720 listening to seven am, we'll be back tomorrow.