WEBVTT - 9: Bonus: Jane 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:03.600 Last week, a few days before we were to wrap up, 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:05.840 I got a phone call from a woman we've given 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.360 the pseudonym Jane. She was ready to speak. We ran 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.200 some of that interview in the previous episode. We've decided 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:15.960 to run it in full, lightly edited this week. It's 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:20.040 a departure from our usual format. Her insights into Hamish 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:23.960 and her insights into herself are wise beyond her years. 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.320 She is able to articulate in vivid detail what happens 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.240 when you come into contact with a man like Hamish. 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.800 She encapsulates this podcast series. I've been checking in on 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:38.199 Jane to see that she is okay. She seems to 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.239 have a supportive network around her. She and Beck and 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.639 Jack Rosen have been in contact with each other. It's 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.440 been an emotional time for all of them. She sent 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:51.360 me this text on the weekend. Myriad emotions right now, 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.600 but mostly I'm just fatigued and relieved to have finally 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:58.240 done it naturally. I was anxious to hear it played back, 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:00.680 but want to say thank you for coming into my 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:04.000 space and hearing my story and delivering it in the 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:08.039 way that you have. I'm grateful, thank you for being 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:12.040 so respectful and genuinely caring throughout this process. It means 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.640 more than I could relay. Here is Jane's story in full. 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.760 We'll be back again in June when Hamish is sentenced, 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:24.120 So Jane will call you Jane for the duration of this. 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:26.479 Can you just tell me a a little bit about 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.800 your childhood, about growing up and the circumstances, because I 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:32.880 think it was I think you had a pretty hard upbring. 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.240 You didn't it like your sisters were ill? Can just 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:37.440 explain that, of course. 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:43.360 So I'm the eldest of six. My sister Harriet passed 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:47.160 away at fifteen, so that was in twenty thirteen, and 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:53.639 of course her medical condition growing up placed great strain 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:58.560 on my parents and you know, her siblings, but that 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.960 was a was part and parcel with everyday life, you know, 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:04.080 we were used to that, being in and out of hospital. 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:08.480 And she was palliative care, so twenty four to seven care. 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:12.800 And yeah, she had muscular. 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.000 Districts and cerebral palsy and. 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.720 Sere And you had a sister, a Sibney, who died 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:19.360 when she was just born too as. 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:20.720 Well as that was Harry's twin. 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:23.080 So it was a pretty it was a pretty hard upbringing. 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.280 Would you describe it as that? How would you describe it? 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:31.160 Definitely strained at times, you know, and it was stressful. 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:36.600 There were always instances where Harriet would you know, she 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.480 was always ill, but would crash suddenly and at three 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:42.720 in the morning, ambulances would be at the house taking 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:47.520 her away, you know, resuscitating and whisking her off to hospital. 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:52.160 But that was also very normalized to us as well, 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.600 because that's all we had known since she was born. 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.960 And then you know that coupled with five other children, 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:07.079 that's yeah, that's it was just tough at times, of course, Yes, 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:08.040 a lot going on. 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:09.480 And so when did you meet Jack? 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:09.720 Then? 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.680 So Jack and I met when I moved to Foster. 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.200 That was at the beginning of year eight, so I 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:22.280 was fourteen, I hadn't yet turned fifteen. And yeah, we 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:26.799 met through school as you do. And we were in 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:30.600 the same friend group at first, of course, and it 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:35.920 wasn't until the end of year nine that we started 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.240 hanging out and sort of made it official when we 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.200 went back to school. 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.760 Yeah, and we're spending a lot of time then at 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.520 Jack's house from that period on, Yeah. 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:51.800 It was like it was instant, you know, as soon 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:54.400 as we started dating, and even I think before we 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:56.320 made it official, I was there all the time. 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.600 That was my escape when you felt very in that 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:05.200 house with Beck, And definitely can you describe that what 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:05.920 the house was like. 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:09.320 It was beautiful, and I think for me having come 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.120 from such a it wasn't even so much that my 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:14.880 household was boisterous with all the children, and it was 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.719 more so, you know, the influence that my mother had 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:20.320 in the house. You know, her and I didn't have 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:24.040 a good relationship. And then, of course, like I had 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:30.040 said previously, the stresses of Harriet's condition. It was so 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.520 nice being in a household where it felt like there 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:34.760 was there was no stress. It was just really easy. 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.919 It was always really happy and jovial, and I was 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:40.839 instantly a part of the family, and it was so 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:46.520 nice to feel, yeah, like I was just calm. I 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:47.440 think that's what it was. 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:52.760 And was Hamish there at that stage, Yeah, when I 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:54.640 first started going to. 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.440 The house, he was there. They'd already yeah, him and 0:04:57.480 --> 0:04:59.520 Beck had already married by this point. 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.280 And what did you think of Hamish at that point. 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:08.680 In the early days, I remember him and Jack had 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.480 started training together a lot. That was my first introduction 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:17.760 to him was through training, so he started teaching Jack 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:22.240 boxing and then of course, you know, being Jack's new girlfriend, 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:25.720 I would be over at the house and either watching 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:31.000 them boxing, and then you know, progressively I started joining in. 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:33.600 And that's what it was based around. Like he was 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.840 always so active, Miss Hamish. And you know, whether it 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.400 be taking generally by surfing or boxing with Jack, or 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.720 then running with Jack, which is really where I came in. 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:50.599 You know, I loved running at school and that was Yeah, 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:55.600 the introduction to Hamish was through that more than anything, Yes. 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.080 True running and and and what what did you what 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.320 did you think of him at that stage? 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:05.520 Always very jovial. I don't know that I would have 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:09.080 used the word charismatic at sixteen, but he was always 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:15.720 very friendly and just quite energetic, very energetic, always on 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.880 the go. I think that's one why I have trouble 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.000 recalling those early days was it was almost like he 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:23.760 wasn't often at the house. 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.120 Right and did you go so did you go surfing 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:27.000 with him? And things like that? 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.920 We were surfing, No, never surfing. So I sort of 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.080 started taking up the boxing, and but then more so 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:35.880 the running was running where I came into it. 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:37.479 Because you're a bit of an athlete to aren't. 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.640 You was not so much anymore? 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:42.520 Yes? And so where would you go running? 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.240 Oh, you know, Palms is a beautiful place. It was 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.200 either just running and doing the loop around Pacific Palms, 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:52.640 which was, you know, an eight to nine k run, 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.840 or up over the headland and doing more endurance and 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.800 track style running like cross country. It varied. 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:01.640 And did you have good conversations? 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:04.880 Yeah, most definitely. I Mean that's the thing about Haim 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.800 is she was not only was he a conversationalist, but 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:12.520 a really good listener and very inquisitive, you know. And 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:16.760 I think that's something that's across every account in this 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:21.520 series so far as his capacity for listening and taking 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:26.000 an interest very intentionally in what you're doing and what 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:30.720 you're about. And yeah, it was always easy. 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.680 It was always easy. Did become quite intense the relationship 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:35.160 between the two of you, do you know what I mean? 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:37.880 Like like in terms of that, you would you know, 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.480 you're at an age where you're sixteen or seventeen, You're 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.360 getting all these ideas about the world, and here is 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.840 someone who's listening to your thoughts about the world. Was 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:51.120 that a kind of it was an intoxicating kind of sensationalist. 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.720 It was definitely, and I think too, having come from 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:00.440 not necessarily a sheltered childhood, but I hadn't I hadn't traveled, parents, 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:05.360 hadn't traveled a great deal, you know, living in a 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:07.760 small town and then for someone to sweep in with 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:13.280 all of these stories of you know, life internationally and 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:16.680 you know, just prospects, I think that's what it was. 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:21.560 Yes, it was, Yes, it prospects. That's that's that he 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:24.000 opened you up to the rest of the world, and 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:26.240 so and that's what you were looking for. 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:28.160 Wasn't it, I suppose most definitely. 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:32.200 So he became the key to that. 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:36.440 Yeah, definitely. And I think that was something that that 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.760 was an innate feature of my character early on in 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:42.400 school as well. You know, it was very driven, very 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.520 driven academically, and I was always thinking about, Okay, when 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:48.240 am I getting out of this town? When am I 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.880 getting away? When? When what's bigger? What's out there? What's next? 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:57.960 And I found that, you know, particularly in the early 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.079 stages of high school, I didn't have anybody who was 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.679 on that wavelength. I had nobody to talk to about that, 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:04.960 you know, I didn't have my parents in that capacity, 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.959 and so I think that's when the relationship with Hamish 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:14.160 really developed. He took a keen interest in my schooling 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:18.080 and my studies. And you know, for me, for one, 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:22.040 so passionate about their studies and what I was studying 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.640 at the time. To have someone who was interested, like 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:30.760 but genuinely interested, so I thought at the time that 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.520 was so special to me. 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.520 And how would he become interested? What would what would 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:38.120 he It. 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.040 Started with just the general questions, and that's what it 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.080 is about ham issue. How a school, and you know, 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.240 always the energy that backs that as well, how a school, 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.839 what's going on? What assignments have you got going? How 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.719 is your exam? And it wasn't even necessarily that he 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:56.480 would call details. It was just the constancy of, you know, 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:00.199 questions and his interest in it more than anything. 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:05.960 And how do you make your grandparents at this stage? No, 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.040 so you don't like, I mean, I'm just trying to 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.760 draw the bow there whether or not he got to 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.480 your grandparents, you know what I mean? Like that, but 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.960 that was a reason for him his interest in you, 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.520 or there was another reason, you like, it was just 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:21.240 a long. 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:25.800 Question whether there were old terriors prior to meeting my grandparents, 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:30.200 you know, and whether those questions and that level of 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:34.760 interest was the groundwork for what would ensue. The answer is, 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:35.959 I don't know, because. 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.400 You would have talked about your grandparents and how it 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.120 had an accident and there was court case coming up 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.920 and settlement. 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.600 And they're the things that you relay to an adult 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.240 that you trust, and they're the things that you relay 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.240 when you feel comfortable with someone. And I would not 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:57.680 have been thinking of what could happen, you know. There's 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.160 there's no way that I ever could have foreseen what 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:03.880 he would then do and how that relationship with my parents, 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:09.959 would my grandparents rather would then come about. So yeah, 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:14.200 I've long harbored the guilt of being the link between 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.920 Hamish and my grandparents, and that's something that I have 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:23.400 to live with. But yeah, it all happened so. 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:27.000 Quickly while we're there. Well I was going to try 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.200 and get to that later, but while we're there, can 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:30.600 you recall how they meant? 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:35.839 So Hamish did he try and initiate a meeting? 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:36.120 You know? 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.680 Yeah, And it was it was funny because I remember 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:46.120 him being so throughout our whole relationship, you know, particularly 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:53.120 after the affair had started so beyond reproach, I think 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:54.960 is the best way to say it. He thought he 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:58.440 could do what he wanted, and he did it so 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.960 confidently that it you know, it almost seemed as such. 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:05.680 But you know, saying let's go out for dinner, and 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.360 I remember being like, that's a bit strange and it's 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:12.959 a tiny town, and he was like, let's get your grandparents. 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.079 We will get your grandparents, will go out for dinner, 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:20.920 you know, and it's all quite vague, and that what 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.200 happened in the lead up to that. But you know, 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:25.480 we ended up meeting up with my grandparents for dinner 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:30.600 and it started from there. And then you know, as 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:34.280 my grandparents were laid, he just start showing up at 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:38.440 the house or inquiring after them, and you know, he 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:41.600 became That's what I mean. It happened so quickly. I 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.760 don't remember how it all sort of transitioned. It was 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.119 just like he was suddenly there. 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.880 And it was just all the time beyond your knowledge 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:51.680 that this is what he was trying to do. Obviously, 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.880 because you had no well you wouldn't have had any 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.280 You wouldn't have had any thought that anyone would even 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:57.560 do that. 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:02.640 Would you no concept what soever, no concept at all. 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.920 Yes, And when did you find out that your grandparents 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:08.520 had invested money with Hamish? 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.400 It wasn't for some time. And I remember saying to 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:15.160 my grandmother, why why wasn't I privy to this earlier? 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.079 You know, like what when did this come about? And 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:25.440 even then, even then, alarm bells really hadn't started ringing 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.760 at all, because I knew that he had invested money 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:32.480 for other family, friends and people around palms. And so 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:37.320 even then when I found out it wasn't alarm bells 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.240 as such, it was just more so, oh, okay, when 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.800 did that come about? Because it all seemed very you know, 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:45.440 swept under the rug, if you will. 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:47.520 And what did your grandparents tell you about it? 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.600 Very little? You know, it wasn't something that we discussed. 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.840 And I think that was just part of their nature 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.800 as well. They never discussed money. They were just hard workers. 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:03.840 It was never a topic of conversation. And you know, 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.080 very much, us being the children the time, we didn't 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:08.120 ask those because. 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:09.520 You're fifteen, sixteen, six. 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:14.280 Sixteen, sixteen, you know, I think now, of course I 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:16.200 would be so much more privy to what's going on. 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.600 But back then, at sixteen, There's no way I would 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:22.120 have gone. Okay, so how much did you invest? And 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:24.080 you know, what are the terms of this agreement and 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.000 so on and so forth, because that was just completely 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:27.720 beyond my realm of thinking at that time. 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:29.640 And at that time, had you have known about that, 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.640 you probably would have trusted Hamish anyway, of course. 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.480 And that's what it was, Like I said, even when 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.000 I found out, it wasn't even then that alarm bells 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:43.520 were ringing. It was okay, well it seems natural not 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:48.240 and pop it seemed very comfortable. But the whole thing, 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:52.360 they were very comfortable with Hamish. You know, he was 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.720 very much making himself a part of the family by 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:56.560 this point in time. 0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:00.120 So he was taking your grandfather for drives and his 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.600 kayak and and did you think that was strange? And 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:05.600 you just sort of thought that's Hamish being friendly. 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:11.080 Yeah, not strange, just friendly. And again it comes back 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.160 to that nature of Hamishes where. 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:16.800 He was. 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:23.320 Very friendly, very charismatic, very warm, and he made you 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:28.880 feel important or very least listened to. 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:34.280 So yes, yes, and did look, if we keep going 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.160 down this tracker by the grandparents, we'll come back to 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.320 all the other stuff. Later, But did when did did 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.040 they tell you when things started going bad? 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:49.920 It wasn't that they necessarily said outwardly, look, things were 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.760 in trouble. It's just that I started to notice things. 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.880 You know, by this stage they'd given him a lot 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:02.640 of money, which only really just of come to fully understand. 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.680 And it was more so, you know, they weren't seeing 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.600 the returns, and so it was this constancy of Okay, Hamish, 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:13.800 what's going on? And then you know, when you start 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.840 asking questions and you get you know, he was just 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:21.480 always evasive, I suppose, and all the excuses and. 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.880 Did they come to you at that stage? Were you 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.160 were you in a relationship with you at that stage 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:31.040 or yes you were? So that must have been awkward. 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:40.960 It was hard, but what it was was naturally but 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:44.680 this point with Hamish, things weren't adding up. Of course, 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.240 you know, I was starting to question a number of things. 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:50.920 I was starting to pick up on conversations here and 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.040 there with you know, over the phone, and sort of 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:59.280 just yeah, things weren't adding up and the stories weren't correlating. 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:06.360 And then obviously because they were my grandparents, my grandmother 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.080 started coming to me saying, you know, Hamish, isn't giving 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.679 us our money? Or you know, I think at first 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.280 it wasn't that they were looking for their money in entirety, 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.240 but even to get some back. 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:17.600 They needed money. 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:20.840 They needed money to live and he'd taken so much 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:25.679 of it that they were struggling. And so then you know, 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:26.600 of course I would. 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.639 Question him, and what would he say. 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:36.760 I just met with an absolute torrent of excuses and 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.240 financial lingo about how it was held up in accounts 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.239 and this and that and all these reasons as to 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.600 why the funds couldn't be released. 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.760 And so we'll go backwards of you. Now we'll get 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:54.760 your running. You're doing training together. When when did the 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.000 relationship turn from that to something else? 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:06.040 I can't definitively pinpoint, but it just started with the attention. 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:12.760 And you know it was always when he I suppose 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.359 had me away, so when you were running, or in 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:17.760 the comments. 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:22.359 And what were the comments, oh just. 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:28.399 About my appearance or you know, how how fit I 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.360 was and things like the things that were. You know, 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.880 even at that stage I could sort of gauge were 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.320 you know, not straight? You know, if you will, did 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:40.080 this make you feel like? 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:41.800 I mean, this is really hard thing did it make 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.360 you feel uncomfortable? Or did it make you feel flattered? 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.520 Like it's both. At first it was definitely like, oh okay, 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:52.160 what's going on? But then with the persistence of it 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.840 and how openly he did it and how confidently he 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:59.119 did it, it was so easy to sort of not 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.200 only go along with it, but not question it so much, 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:08.000 you know, and because I already felt so comfortable with him. Yeah, 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.080 I remember at first it was sort of, you know, 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.640 a matter of going, oh, shut up, paying me, sure, 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:17.520 laughing it off, and then yeah, it just progressively got 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.760 more serious and more forward, and. 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.520 Like, so you was sixteen when this first all started. Yes, 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.480 do you do you know they understand like the concept 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.720 that the legal concept of grooming? Yeah, do you do 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:33.320 you think that that's what he was doing to you? 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:35.399 Like if you're looking back now in. 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:39.720 At the time, I had no concept of that, of course, 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:46.160 not of course looking back most definitely. Yeah, it transpired 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:51.760 over a matter of months, and yeah, he knew what 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:52.399 he was doing. 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.760 I mean, it's a fine line there, isn't it whether 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:01.840 he's your kind of guardian or you know what I mean? 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:07.960 Like you were his stepson's girlfriend, and like did the 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.560 police ever talk to you about that. No, they didn't 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.480 know about whether or not this. 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:16.560 That line had been crossed, that. 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.800 Line had been crossed. Do you think they probably should have? 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:31.640 Perhaps? And it's one of the sad thing is it's 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.639 one of those things where I've sort of had to 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:39.400 question whether that would have made any difference. You know, 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:45.360 I think I can say this. I knowingly and consciously 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:52.480 entered into an affair with him, But at sixteen seventeen, 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.240 I didn't have the foresight and I most definitely didn't 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:59.879 have the mental or emotional capacity at that age too 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:06.920 understand or handle a man like Hamish. That's the bell 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:08.960 and end all, and that's something that I'll have to 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.840 live with, and that's what I will have to come 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:15.560 to reconcile with in some capacity if I ever can. 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.160 But I know that much is true. 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:22.600 Can you just walk us through how the relationship then 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.680 moved into something more from him being friendly to being. 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:31.720 Yeah, I mean so contrary to what most people would believe, 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:36.199 it wasn't some torrid affair by way of physicality. You know, 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:41.240 the affairs started based purely on deceit, you know, the 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:44.880 deceit of Beck and Jack and long before anything physical 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:50.119 had even eventuated. And you know, I thought at the 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.960 time that that was that meant that he really cared 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:58.080 for me, that it wasn't based on that. And you know, 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:03.040 it was months before anything physical even or just not not. 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:05.600 So that's how it was. There was a kiss and 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:08.520 that's how it sort of started. And you know, I 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:10.760 was down in Sydney, and that's what I mean. It 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:15.439 was always in circumstances where he had me away and 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:19.719 I'd gone to Sydney under the guise of going to work, 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:25.240 and you know, we'd been out drinking and I was 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:31.240 seventeen at this point, and I think I was still sixteen, 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:35.800 and yeah, I was intoxicate, and we kissed and I 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:38.560 remember sort of freaking out and going okay, o, God, 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:41.840 what's happening. But that was the starting point. That was 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:47.640 the first point of physicality, and then nothing more than 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:50.600 that occurred for a few like months after. 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:54.119 Can you just take me through that. I mean, this 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:56.080 is probably difficult for you, but can you just take 0:22:56.119 --> 0:23:00.000 me through that first point of physicality? Is you call it? 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:04.800 Yeah? So I'd gone to Sydney with him, and you know, 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:07.720 as it were that I loved it, and I loved 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:09.960 going away to Sydney and going down there, and it 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:15.960 was the escape. And there'd been all this grandiose talk 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:18.639 of what I would do after school, you know, he 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:21.720 was already sort of projecting that onto me. You know, 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:24.719 you're so talented, you're so gifted. What are we going 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:27.480 to do after school? Like, what are we going to do? 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:28.800 How can I help you? 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:29.000 You know? 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:31.439 And it wasn't even so much how can I help you? 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:35.760 I'm going to help you. And I was so swept 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:40.200 up in that, almost instantaneously, the thought that someone could 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:44.439 offer me these chances that had never even been on 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:48.840