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Speaker 1: Each emotion has a gift, and each emotion also has

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Speaker 1: a toxic level. So, for example, if you talk about love,

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Speaker 1: the gift is connectedness. Now, when you feel love for

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Speaker 1: someone or something, you feel connected to them. But the

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Speaker 1: toxic level of love is a meshment. And that's that

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Speaker 1: sort of sense where you're being smothered or coerced into

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Speaker 1: behaving a certain way because somebody wants you to be

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Speaker 1: like that. So it's interesting that it's not just about

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Speaker 1: how do I feel in the moment, but what level

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Speaker 1: of them am I at.

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Speaker 2: Addiction is a bastard of a disease.

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Speaker 3: If you have it, you don't know it.

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Speaker 2: In fact, the number one symptom of addiction is that

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Speaker 2: it convinces you that you are not an addict.

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Speaker 3: Now, that's a terrible thing.

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Speaker 2: To get trapped in. I can speak from experience there,

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Speaker 2: and it's also a terrible thing for the people who

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Speaker 2: care about you.

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Speaker 3: I can speak from experience there.

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Speaker 2: Too, because while you may not realize it, your addiction

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Speaker 2: affects the people around you as much as it affects you,

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Speaker 2: and not just because they have to deal with your bullshit.

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Speaker 2: It actually changes the way that they are around others.

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Speaker 2: The rest of your family, the people at work, strangers. However,

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Speaker 2: every now and then addicts have what is called a

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Speaker 2: moment of clarity, a moment where they can see exactly

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Speaker 2: what they're doing, they can see what's happening to them

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Speaker 2: those around them, and if they're lucky, they can see

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Speaker 2: where they're headed. If you're really lucky. That moment is

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Speaker 2: accompanied by a willingness to do something about it, something

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Speaker 2: to interrupt a cycle of damage and destruction that they

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Speaker 2: are otherwise unable to interrupt. It's too powerful for them

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Speaker 2: to make a choice about it. Those moments don't last

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Speaker 2: very long. So when that little window opportunity arises, what

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Speaker 2: can we do to help the addict in our lives?

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Speaker 2: What do we need to do to help ourselves today?

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Speaker 2: I am so honored to welcome back to the show

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Speaker 2: one of the most important voices in Australia when it

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Speaker 2: comes to the treatment of addiction. Diane Young is a

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Speaker 2: psychotherapist and holistic counselor who is the director of Clinical

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Speaker 2: Supervision at South Pacific Private, which is a treatment center

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Speaker 2: in Australia for addiction, anxiety and depression.

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Speaker 3: This is a solid episode.

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Speaker 2: It is full of insight, full of really useful tools.

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Speaker 3: I know you're going to get a lot out of it.

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Speaker 3: Before we get.

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Speaker 2: There, though, we've got to play some ads to keep

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Speaker 2: the lights on.

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Speaker 3: I'll be back after the break.

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Speaker 2: Gooday, this is better than yesterday, helping you make today

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Speaker 2: better than yesterday since twenty and thirteen. I am so

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Speaker 2: glad you're here. My name's Osha Ginzburg. I am a

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Speaker 2: podcast I'm my best selling author, I am my husband,

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Speaker 2: and I'm a dad. I'm a step dad. I am

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Speaker 2: a person who occasionally does keynote speaking do massive international

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Speaker 2: corporations and occasionally surprises those people when they find out

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Speaker 2: just how swary I can be.

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Speaker 3: What I get a motive and I'm glad that you're here.

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Speaker 2: I don't want, I don't I always check when I'm

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Speaker 2: doing a brief and call I'm doing a keynote. You

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Speaker 2: always do a briefing. Call, Okay, who's there, who's in

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Speaker 2: the room? How many people?

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Speaker 3: You know? What's the demo? Are they going to be? Okay?

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Speaker 3: If I'm a bit sweary.

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Speaker 2: One of the people from my speaking agency actually came

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Speaker 2: to the comedy show at the Festival, the Comedy Festival

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Speaker 2: in Melbourne.

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Speaker 3: They hadn't seen me speak before, and on the way out,

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Speaker 3: I was thanking everyone.

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Speaker 2: I said, I promise I won't swear so much where

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Speaker 2: you booked me at Australia when eighty gig And she

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Speaker 2: laughed because sometimes when you get booked for a keynote gig,

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Speaker 2: you know, you do the briefing call and you know

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Speaker 2: you kind of figure out pretty quickly, Oh, I can't

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Speaker 2: drop the F bomb or the sea bomb on this joint.

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Speaker 2: But then, on the other hand, I did a gig

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Speaker 2: at a shall we say, a major manufactor during company

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Speaker 2: and it was just a room full of blokes in

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Speaker 2: broad shorts and singlets.

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Speaker 3: They were on a company retreat.

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Speaker 2: And when they book me on that one, and I

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Speaker 2: was talking about swearing, said, look, they're going to be

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Speaker 2: okay if I occasionally swear here and there. I only

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Speaker 2: do it to, you know, punctuate something. But it's often

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Speaker 2: when I get a motor that I was like, if

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Speaker 2: you don't swear, they probably aren't going to trust you,

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Speaker 2: so you'd better.

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Speaker 3: It's like, okay, fair enough, So yeah, occasionally, like I

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Speaker 3: be swearing. That was a diversion we're here to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Diane Young.

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Speaker 2: Diane Young is on the show today. She is a

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Speaker 2: return guest. I'm so thrilled she's back. And I brought

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Speaker 2: her back because I had the opportunity to be at

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Speaker 2: south By Southwestern Sydney a little while back, and when

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Speaker 2: you want to get on south By south By Southwest,

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Speaker 2: you actually have to pitch for the slot. A lot

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Speaker 2: of competition around slots, and I put two guests forward.

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Speaker 2: I put for Peter Garrett, which we've already played on

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Speaker 2: the show, and Diane Young because from where I see it,

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Speaker 2: the conversation in our country about addiction, it's got to

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Speaker 2: get realistic. Okay, A five second billboard at the back

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Speaker 2: end of a gambling ad asking what is gambling really

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Speaker 2: costing you? That cannot overpower a dysregulated reward system. All right,

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Speaker 2: it's not going to stop someone.

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Speaker 3: It can't.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't it unable to stop someone who's addicted to a

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Speaker 2: mobile gambling app or something drink responsibly printed on the

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Speaker 2: bottom of a can or a label that's no match.

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Speaker 3: For an addict.

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Speaker 2: It never stopped me, Like drink responsibly, I am. I'm

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Speaker 2: drinking this beer before it gets warm, right now. That's

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Speaker 2: like by the time you read it, it's like it's yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot that could be done. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of space, and particularly in Australia because of the size

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Speaker 2: of the problem here, the coupling of addiction to profit

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Speaker 2: in our country, it's profoundly damaging to us as a community.

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Speaker 2: Billions of dollars are made in Australia off of people

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Speaker 2: who have largely lost the ability to decide on how

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Speaker 2: much is a good idea to gamble or how much

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Speaker 2: is a good idea to drink? And it's a real shame.

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Speaker 2: It's a real shame, and the health impacts are humongous.

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Speaker 2: They don't just affect the person because, in my view,

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Speaker 2: the amount of money that addiction makes in this country,

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Speaker 2: it helps normalize the behavior and it really makes help

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Speaker 2: seeking hard. Diane Young is one of the most important

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Speaker 2: voices in our country when it comes to addiction. The

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Speaker 2: work she does at South Pacific Private there's nothing short

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Speaker 2: of life changing. I couldn't be more grateful to Diane

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Speaker 2: for coming back on the show, or to south By

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Speaker 2: Southwest for saying yes to the session. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of competition for the slots. I'm sure you can imagine

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Speaker 2: everybody wanted to be there so I'm thrilled I was

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Speaker 2: supportive of me making this session happen. And to everyone

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Speaker 2: that joined us at the International Convention Center in Darling

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Speaker 2: Harbor in Sydney, you literally could not fit another person

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Speaker 2: in the room.

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Speaker 3: It was absolutely packed.

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Speaker 2: People were busting to see Diane in full flight, and

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Speaker 2: you're about to discover why she is fantastic.

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Speaker 3: Enjoy this conversation with Diane Young. So.

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Speaker 2: Diane works at South Pacific Private, which is a impatient

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Speaker 2: and hour patient rehabilitation facility for people who you suffer

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Speaker 2: from addiction, from anxiety, from depression, La la la, those

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Speaker 2: things are often inter linked.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for being here, Diane.

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Speaker 2: You have been in this game for quite a long

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Speaker 2: time for people who might not people who.

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Speaker 3: Might have an idea about addiction. Let's start there.

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Speaker 2: What do you How do we talk about what addiction

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Speaker 2: is and what addiction isn't?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 1: I think very simply, addiction is when you have no

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Speaker 1: control over the substances you use anymore, or the behaviors

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Speaker 1: you exhibit, whether it's gambling, whether it's sex, whether it's work.

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Speaker 1: That's a healthy That's the one we all hide behind,

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Speaker 1: isn't it? Well, some of us probably none of you,

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Speaker 1: but I do.

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Speaker 3: And loons, come on there you are. That's a big one,

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Speaker 3: isn't it. Yeah? Yeah, sober to well. Or they're cycling now,

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Speaker 3: they in their tight things like like her.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and look when Richrol says you want to go

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Speaker 2: for a ride, you say yes, yes.

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Speaker 3: Just so you know, I don't wear lycra.

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Speaker 1: I do.

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Speaker 3: I'm worrying right now.

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Speaker 2: It's comfy on the motorbike. Sorry about the name, I

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Speaker 2: just dropped it.

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Speaker 3: But so yeah.

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Speaker 2: People might not understand about control over the choices. And

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Speaker 2: this is the thing that you know, why don't you

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Speaker 2: just not have a drink, or why don't you just

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Speaker 2: not go into the pokey room?

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Speaker 3: I can do it. Why can't you?

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Speaker 2: What happens in our brains that allow that stops us

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Speaker 2: from being able to make or no longer be able

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Speaker 2: to make that choice.

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Speaker 1: We get the dopamine hit from whatever it is we're using,

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Speaker 1: whether it's alcohol, with it's drugs, whatever the substance is,

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Speaker 1: whatever the behavior is, and we want that.

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Speaker 3: Continuing to hit.

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Speaker 1: The interesting thing about gambling actually is the research they've

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Speaker 1: done with gamblers is that when they lose, they get

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Speaker 1: a very similar hit of dopamine doesn't make sense, does it.

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Speaker 3: That's what happens in your brain.

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Speaker 1: So you go back again to do And did you

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Speaker 1: know I only found this out recently. If you're a

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Speaker 1: gambler that uses poker machines, you probably never use online

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Speaker 1: sports betting.

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Speaker 3: Get out. There's a distinction in the gambling community. What's

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Speaker 3: the difference.

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Speaker 1: Well, because the people who are using sports bets or

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Speaker 1: horses or those sort of things, they think they've got

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Speaker 1: a half even chance of winning. They look at the

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Speaker 1: people that are playing the poga machines and.

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Speaker 3: Go, you're a fool. You've got no chance. So there's

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Speaker 3: a distinction. There's a less than better than even in

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Speaker 3: the gambling addiction. Well, so who do I thought? That? Fascinating?

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Speaker 3: Isn't it? So?

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Speaker 2: Dopamine there's a fantastic book. I can that.

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Speaker 3: I'm the two doctors that wrote it.

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Speaker 2: But it's the molecule of more.

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Speaker 1: Yes, right, and we need it, don't Yeah? Absolutely we needed.

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Speaker 3: What does it do for us? Makes us feel fabulous?

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Speaker 1: We think we look fabulous, we are fabulous, we sound fabulous.

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Speaker 2: Dopamine is so I take medication every day. One of

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Speaker 2: the med's online makes me thirsty, So for me to

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Speaker 2: make my arm grab that cup and drink some water.

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Speaker 2: Dopemine is involved in making my arm move, all right,

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Speaker 2: So we need it. We can't not have it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: what are the things that cause of that system to

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Speaker 2: get dysregulated, make that thing become compulsive.

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Speaker 3: It's a big question, isn't it? Soundsking a big question even.

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Speaker 1: I think it comes back to the point of where

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Speaker 1: we begin. Yeah, I think it comes back to the

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Speaker 1: point about childhood trauma and abuse that we experience as children,

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Speaker 1: and not all of it is overt.

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Speaker 3: Some of it is covert.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of people that I work with will

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Speaker 1: tell me, you know, with respect to anybody in the

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Speaker 1: room that's in this category sort of over forty year

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Speaker 1: old men will say to me, but I, you know,

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Speaker 1: like my mother was fabulous to me. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: didn't have any abuse when I was a child. And

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Speaker 1: then you've got to unpack a little bit. As you unpack,

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Speaker 1: you find that you know she was smothering. She didn't

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Speaker 1: mean to do it. This is, by the way, anything

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Speaker 1: I'm saying about parents is that ninety I would go

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Speaker 1: so far as to say, out of the thousands of

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Speaker 1: people I've worked with, there were ninety eight percent of

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Speaker 1: the parents meant no harm to the children. They didn't

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Speaker 1: do it because they were trying to harm the child.

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Speaker 1: They did it because they were conditioned from how they

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Speaker 1: were parented and how their parents were parented. And so

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Speaker 1: you know, And if you're sitting in this room, you

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Speaker 1: probably have some idea about intergenerational trauma, I would suggest,

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Speaker 1: So that's how that happens.

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Speaker 2: It is so unpacking it and finding that reason. I mean,

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Speaker 2: why does anyone do anything It is to feel differently

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Speaker 2: from the way we are now.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and if we are shamed as children for having feelings.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's only eight emotions. Some of you will

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Speaker 1: be surprised to hear that. We call them different things,

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Speaker 1: but there's only eight of them.

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Speaker 3: Can you name them? Yes? Would you like me to please?

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Speaker 1: Anger, joy, love, shame, guilt, loneliness, fear, guilt.

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Speaker 3: That's a biggie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Guilt and shame very close together.

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Speaker 3: They are. You will.

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Speaker 1: Shame such a public emotion, isn't it. If you feel shame,

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Speaker 1: it's often because you've been found out. But if you

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Speaker 1: feel guilt, it's often because people don't know.

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Speaker 3: It's private or private.

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Speaker 2: Now, all of these emotions are things that we need

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Speaker 2: as humans to exist, and one cannot exist without the other.

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Speaker 1: No, And the beautiful thing about the way we work

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Speaker 1: at South Pacific, for example, is we will often ask

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Speaker 1: people to check in, you know, clients, they'll check in,

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Speaker 1: how are you feeling today? And there's eight of the

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Speaker 1: emotions up on the wall and they'll look at them

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Speaker 1: and they go, love and joy. Now, let's be blunt.

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Speaker 1: They're in a private psychiatric system. They've taken three weeks

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Speaker 1: out of their life, probably something like five to address

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Speaker 1: whatever's going on in their life.

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Speaker 3: They're not feeling love and joy.

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Speaker 1: In fact, they're not feeling very much of anything, but

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Speaker 1: they're going to say love and Joe because it sounds good.

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Speaker 1: Each has a gift, and each emotion also has a

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Speaker 1: toxic level. So, for example, if you talk about love,

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Speaker 1: the gift is connectedness. Now, when you feel love for

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Speaker 1: someone or something, you feel connected to them. But the

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Speaker 1: toxic level of love is a meshment. And that's that

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Speaker 1: sort of sense where you're being smothered or coerced into

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Speaker 1: behaving a certain way because somebody wants you to be

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 3: So it's interesting that.

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Speaker 1: It's not just about how do I feel in the moment,

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Speaker 1: But what level of them am I at?

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Speaker 2: And when it is at that toxic level, and particularly

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Speaker 2: if you don't know what to do with it.

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Speaker 3: Certainly in my own experience, I.

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Speaker 2: Started blackout drinking at fourteen, right because and it was

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Speaker 2: this magical, frothy, bitter relixa that made all a fear go.

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Speaker 3: I was telling my wife this morning.

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Speaker 2: I was also chiatrist when I was five in nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy nine, and it was must have.

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Speaker 3: Been the one guy there.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, like I look at you know.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember that? Yeah? Do you remember going in?

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Speaker 2: Had any idea what he could do with me? But

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Speaker 2: what's going on that you send your fight? I remember

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Speaker 2: them coming to get me out of school take me

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Speaker 2: to go see this guy? Like, what's going on at

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Speaker 2: a five year old that you need? I'm going to

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Speaker 2: we need help that we don't have, you know, So

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Speaker 2: early on, you know, I had this something's up and

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Speaker 2: being in public and spaces like this or whatever, it's horrific.

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Speaker 3: And then that first beer was like here it is ah.

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Speaker 2: And you know, also be honest in being honest now,

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Speaker 2: being on stage is a big part of it because

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Speaker 2: for me, anxiety was not being in control. I'm on stage.

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Speaker 2: I'm in control, and look now I'm talking. You're all quiet.

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Speaker 2: It's fucking brilliant. I also get to say what happens next.

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Speaker 2: I know what happens next. I'm an absolute surenity right now.

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Speaker 2: Just so you know, I have a very different relationship

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Speaker 2: to my job now.

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Speaker 3: I had to.

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Speaker 1: But for me, that's a classic way of turning what

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Speaker 1: was a deficit if I can use that well into

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Speaker 1: a positive in our lives, and that's what we need

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Speaker 1: to do. It's not that any of us is getting

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Speaker 1: out of this alive.

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Speaker 3: None of us are.

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Speaker 1: And it's not that any of us are going to

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Speaker 1: actually not struggle with something in our lives.

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Speaker 2: Sorry if you didn't realize that, Yes, everyone in this

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Speaker 2: room is going to die, and everyone you love will die.

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Speaker 2: All of your pets will die, don't you.

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Speaker 3: Let's not talk about the pets. Okay?

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Speaker 2: Why the fuck do we choose companion animals that have

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Speaker 2: such short life spans? I have two kovoodles, all right,

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Speaker 2: one of them is going to be dead in three years.

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Speaker 2: Why do we not choose African gray parrots who last

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Speaker 2: until they're eighty five?

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Speaker 3: And because they don't cuddle like a kvoodle does. That's why.

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Speaker 2: But there's an African grey parrot called Alex at once

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Speaker 2: answered an existential question.

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Speaker 3: It asked what color am I? Well? Did it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's the juries out on how much it was coached,

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Speaker 2: but I'm going with it. Actually, the idea that I've

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Speaker 2: one of these eight emotions is so powerful in my body,

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Speaker 2: but I can't downregulate it, and it's making me feel

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Speaker 2: really uncomfortable.

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Speaker 3: I'm doing and saying things.

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Speaker 1: Well, maybe you're just not taught how to manage them. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: Burgo the five year old being taken to the psychiatrist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but I now need something.

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Speaker 2: And when I have this other thing, oh, it's gone

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Speaker 2: now yeah, And that's where it starts.

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Speaker 1: And then you don't feel anything precisely, which is even worse.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, the dosage starts to you become what it habituated

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Speaker 2: Yes to the dosage and whatever it is. The dosage

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Speaker 2: has to get bigger and bigger yes to get the

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Speaker 2: same effect.

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Speaker 1: So by the time you're fourteen and you're having your

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Speaker 1: first beer, you need it.

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Speaker 2: Mate. It was like remember Asterix the gore. You probably

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Speaker 2: couldn't get away with it.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: But Asterix the Gore was a cartoon, a comic, French comic,

350
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Speaker 2: and he was this tiny little dude about this big

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Speaker 2: and he drank this magic potion and became the superhuman.

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Speaker 3: And then would go and beat the Romans. It was that.

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Speaker 2: It was that that, and you know, Australian first grade

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Speaker 2: cricketers sitting on the beach and with Sundays drinking beers,

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Speaker 2: and the moment we went, a girl in a bikini

356
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Speaker 2: would show up. Do you know how many beers I

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Speaker 2: opened waiting for her?

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Speaker 3: She never came.

359
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Speaker 2: So I'm leading us towards this because what we have is,

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Speaker 2: you know, a situation where whatever it is we're trying

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Speaker 2: to either put into our body or do with our

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Speaker 2: body is now no longer making the emotion go away,

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Speaker 2: and being with emotion is so horrible it doesn't matter

364
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Speaker 2: even that we know this thing is bad and dangerous

365
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Speaker 2: and probably quite risky, we can't not do it because

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Speaker 2: it's better than being here.

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Speaker 1: And by the time it's in that space and being

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Speaker 1: better than being here, we've got a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: behaviors that we're starting to get ashamed of. Right that

370
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Speaker 1: if we actually remember what we've done in the early

371
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Speaker 1: days of addiction. Often people still remember until they're start

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Speaker 1: having blackouts, and so that's you know, that's cumulative, isn't it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not only a we're running away from how we feel

374
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Speaker 1: within ourselves, but we're actually also running away from what

375
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Speaker 1: we've created just for the audience. I also have a

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Speaker 1: history of addiction. They call it lived experience. Now, trust me,

377
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Speaker 1: I wasn't living, but it was a very long time ago.

378
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Speaker 2: But you say very long time ago, but it was

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Speaker 2: to borrow a phrase, it was a day at a time. Yeah,

380
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Speaker 2: I'm thirteen years seven months and something, But I didn't

381
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Speaker 2: do it in a thirteen years seven months charm.

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Speaker 3: No, Sometimes it was a day out of the time.

383
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Speaker 2: When I got really bad, when I was sick, it

384
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Speaker 2: was like an hour at a time.

385
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Speaker 3: I just knew, just get to there, take these three steps.

386
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Speaker 2: So when we're seeing so people are starting to get

387
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Speaker 2: into these behaviors, and certainly I can relate to that,

388
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Speaker 2: because if there's one thing I know about dealing with

389
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Speaker 2: shameful feelings about what I had done the night before,

390
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Speaker 2: the greatest idea I had was more drinking, not the

391
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,199
Speaker 2: way to do it, but that's the only option I

392
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 2: had for me, and then it started to compound and compound,

393
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 2: and that's when the drinking start for me, getting earlier

394
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Speaker 2: and earlier in the day.

395
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Speaker 1: And I'm going to suggest you were running with a

396
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Speaker 1: whole bunch of people are doing the same thing.

397
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Speaker 2: You'd be amazed how many people I never called or

398
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 2: texted or saw again once I stopped.

399
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Speaker 1: It's very interesting, man, isn't it. Isn't it You think

400
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,359
Speaker 1: they're going to come looking for you?

401
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:25,920
Speaker 3: Nah, they don't. Nah.

402
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,000
Speaker 2: I was only in their lives, and I was only

403
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 2: in their lives.

404
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 3: They were only in my lives.

405
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,159
Speaker 2: I should say they were only in my lives to

406
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 2: facilitate that. What are the things because we're talking about

407
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 2: the effects on ourselves. There's health effects, there's risky behavior,

408
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 2: there's contact with justice systems, there's you know, causing harm

409
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,119
Speaker 2: to you kids, and parenting choices of you. It's not

410
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 2: even good enough for parenting. It's far from good enough

411
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,440
Speaker 2: parenting people who though, you know, what are the things

412
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Speaker 2: that can affect the person who lives with the addict,

413
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Speaker 2: or knows the addict, or or loves the addict. That's

414
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 2: the thing that we don't really talk about too much.

415
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,360
Speaker 2: There's lots of names for it. There's codependency, there's all

416
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 2: sorts of things. What are some things that can start

417
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 2: to happen for the person who's living with the person

418
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Speaker 2: who's addicted.

419
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Speaker 1: So the non addict person or the non addicted person, Yeah,

420
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 1: it's as bad for them. I mean, the reality about

421
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,359
Speaker 1: it is that the addict is getting some relief and

422
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 1: the madness they're living with and the chaos they're creating.

423
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 1: The non addicted person has actually got it in technicolor,

424
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Speaker 1: night after night after night.

425
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Speaker 3: So they're copying it one way or another interestingly.

426
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Speaker 1: And if I do think that we don't end up

427
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 1: in relationships with addicts, this may come shocking to some

428
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 1: by mistake. I think a lot of the time we

429
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 1: end up with in relationship with an addicted person because

430
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,160
Speaker 1: of our own history, because we come from a space

431
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:49,719
Speaker 1: where we were taught at a very own age. At

432
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Speaker 1: what I do in my life is, if I'm in

433
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Speaker 1: a relationship with you and you're an addict, it's my

434
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 1: job take care of you. My needs don't matter. I

435
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 1: don't have any needs. I couldn't name an emotion if

436
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,360
Speaker 1: you asked me. But I'm here to facilitate your life,

437
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 1: and I will start lying for you. So when you're

438
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: late from work, or you're not the project's not done

439
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 1: on time, or whatever it is, if you're still functional,

440
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 1: then I'm going to tell a whole bunch of lies

441
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,679
Speaker 1: to protect you. And that means that every time I

442
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: do that, I give myself away and you become more

443
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 1: important than I do, and I continue to lose.

444
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 3: Myself in the relationship.

445
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 1: Happens a lot, and often people who will come to

446
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 1: specific example, well, they'll check in with depression and anxiety,

447
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 1: and if you unpack the story, you'll find that they

448
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,639
Speaker 1: are either from addicted family themselves or highly dysfunctional family,

449
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 1: and they've played it out in their adult life with

450
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: another partner. I mean, it's terrifying when you actually see it.

451
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you can only textbook it. It's so predictable.

452
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 2: So the covering for the addict you said you give

453
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 2: some of yourself away.

454
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, what is that about, Well, it is all about

455
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 1: if I'm the non addicted person, I'm going to isolate

456
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: from the people that are going to question my relationship

457
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 1: with you. I'm going to get very good at looking

458
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: after everything that you need. I'm pre emptying all the time.

459
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: What it is you need anything I think that's going

460
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 1: to stop you. I mean, for example, I'll just give

461
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 1: you a very quick story. So I'm seven years old.

462
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 1: My mother's a chronic alcoholic. I don't know that, I

463
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 1: can't name it. At that point, no one's talking about it.

464
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 1: And so when I come home from school, because I'm

465
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 1: a latchkey kid, I come home from school and she's

466
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 1: collapsed on the floor because she's drunk.

467
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:32,919
Speaker 3: Motherless drunk.

468
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 1: And so initially what I do is a seven year

469
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,959
Speaker 1: old child six or seven year old, is I put

470
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 1: a pillow under a head and a blanket over the

471
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,919
Speaker 1: top of her. Now it happens so regularly that it

472
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 1: doesn't take long before I'm stepping over and going to

473
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 1: my room. So I straightway stop caring about the one

474
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 1: person that's supposed to be caring about me, because part

475
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 1: of my role in that family system is to take

476
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 1: care of her. So I become the adult long before

477
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 1: I should. I start looking to see if there's any

478
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: food in the fridge, long before I should be doing that. Now,

479
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 1: none of you look to me like you're seven anymore.

480
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 1: And I'm sure many of your parents, who's a parent

481
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 1: in this ha yeah, or who has access to a

482
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 1: seven year old They're little. They're little, and we're asking

483
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: them in that situation to make now. My mother denied

484
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: her alcoholism up under the day she died. She could

485
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 1: find fifteen other reasons why she was the way she was. Classic, classic,

486
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: and so as a young person, I, at the age

487
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 1: of seven, trust me, hand on my heart, thought I

488
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: vowed that I would never drink. My mother's drug of

489
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: choice was shadow and under brandy. It's like fire water, right,

490
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even know if they still sell.

491
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 3: They probably still do, but I used to think they should.

492
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: Bomb all the distilleries for the destruction that caused in

493
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,719
Speaker 1: my life. You know, I'm the only kid in the family.

494
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 1: My father's as drunk as she is. He's not an alcoholic.

495
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: There's a gambler. So you know, I got the I

496
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: got the double whammy, and I take care of them.

497
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: I don't even know I'm doing it.

498
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 3: And that plays out in your adult life.

499
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: Yes, well, of course I was never going to drink alcohol,

500
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 1: was I I will never drink at the age of seven,

501
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:17,959
Speaker 1: I'm mad about I will never drink alcohol.

502
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 3: I didn't.

503
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: I become a heroin addict instead, you know, go figure,

504
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: and just for transparency, the two things I could say,

505
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 1: you look at me.

506
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 3: Do I look like I'm a HEROINIGNA?

507
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 1: Look like a middle class, older, middle class, stylish, classy bird, right.

508
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 3: Would you agree with that?

509
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 2: I'd say, very fashionable, powerful.

510
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 3: Yeah.

511
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: But you know, at the age of eighteen, I went

512
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: looking for help because I was on the streets.

513
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 3: You know, there's nobody to look after me.

514
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: And so the two things I could say to you

515
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: about myself before I came into recovery was that I'd

516
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: never been to jala, and I'd never been pregnant.

517
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 3: Now I've had a child in recovery. She's a thirty

518
00:24:59,440 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 3: four year.

519
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 1: Old woman, quite stylish, quite gorgeous herself, mother of two

520
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: little girls.

521
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: And I went to jail when I was in my

522
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 3: early years of recovery. So do you know you.

523
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: Can't predict now when I made the vow at seven

524
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: that I was never going to drink because I saw

525
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: in action what was happening in my home and I

526
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: was keeping the secret. Yeah, we keep the secret because

527
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: we don't know what else to do. I didn't think

528
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: that as I was, you know, sitting in that court

529
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 1: and Darlinghurst. You know that beautiful building up in Darlinghurst.

530
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: Underneath that is a labyrinth of tunnels under the ground.

531
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: And when they bring you in for the court, they

532
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: let you go under the tunnels. And I got out

533
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: of the paddy wagon.

534
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 3: I was nineteen.

535
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: I got out of the paddy wagon. I tell her Li,

536
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: I was twenty actually, And I can remember the big

537
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: burly prison guards next to me, and I.

538
00:25:59,040 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 3: Set out a lad.

539
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: I was thinking very unwise to do that in that circumstance.

540
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,360
Speaker 3: I said, what's that smell?

541
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: And he was a big bloke next to me, and

542
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: he looked down at me and he said, it's fear love.

543
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 3: Great, Oh, this is good. When I was seven, did

544
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 3: I think I'd end up there? No?

545
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 1: Now, I drank when I couldn't get my drugs and

546
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, you know. But the point is I

547
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: was making a distinction using narcotics, thinking well, I'm not

548
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 1: as bad as her.

549
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 3: I don't fall over drunk. I mean, come on, talk

550
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 3: about denial.

551
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 2: It really is the number one symptom of addiction, absolutely

552
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 2: convincing you that it's not fair. You know, you mentioned

553
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: about your mum before that she denied and a found

554
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: fifteen different ways. That's certainly one thing to notice about

555
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 2: and adic Why is it that denial is such a

556
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: huge part of taking it literally the first step.

557
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: Well, because if you if you come out of denial,

558
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: you've got to do something about it. If you have

559
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: people who say, look, no, no, no, no, look, I

560
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: just drink, it's special occasions. I've still got the big job,

561
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: I've got the partner, I've got the kids, I'm earning

562
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: good money. They're what we call functional alcoholics and addicts.

563
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: I don't believe there is such a beast. It's just

564
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: you're on a continuum. You know you are there, are

565
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: you aren't. It's a bit like being pregnant. You are

566
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: either pregnant or you're not pregnant. You know, you either

567
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: are in an addict or you're not. It's just where

568
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 1: you are on the continuumqu.

569
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: Glaus was going to court and going to prison enough

570
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 2: to get you.

571
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 3: To consider your use.

572
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: No.

573
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: Yes, Well by the time I got to prison and court,

574
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: I was actually clean.

575
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 3: Oh well, yeah, so you know I got clean when

576
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 3: I was eighteen.

577
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: Some people are lucky that they have that yeah moment.

578
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 2: But one of the most awful parts of I guess

579
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 2: once you understand what addiction is and knowing it, and

580
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 2: I certainly get it because I've been quite public about

581
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 2: speaking about it, is that people will come and talk

582
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 2: to me and go, what am I going to do

583
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 2: about this son or daughter or wife or husband or

584
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: uncle of mine? And it's so hard to say. You

585
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: kind of have to wait until they're ready. What happens

586
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 2: if someone is kind of pushed into making a choice

587
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,479
Speaker 2: about their using whatever it is, drinking, using whatever?

588
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: What is if when they're not ready.

589
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: Well, oftentimes it doesn't work. But on the old occasion,

590
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: there is. There are occasions where someone's you know, we've

591
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: done interventions with families where somebody's really out of control.

592
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: Particularly one client comes to mind, and he was an

593
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: ice addict and very delusional and quite crazy or.

594
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 3: With a Fetterman psychosis.

595
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: And so you know, his mother begged me to and

596
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: I don't usually do this, but she begged me and

597
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: beg me.

598
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 3: I couldn't. In the end, I couldn't say no.

599
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: So the father, who was a stepfather, the mother, the brother,

600
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: and how he came in and I'd said to each

601
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: of them, look, just write a small less I don't

602
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: want war and peace. I just want two or three

603
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: paragraphs and you know, send them to me, let me

604
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: have a look at them, so they're not accusatory.

605
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 3: You were not blaming the poor soul.

606
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: And then come and see me, and they read out

607
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: the letters and they had a whole lot of information

608
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: ready in South Pacific and another north side choice about

609
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: where he was going to go, and he agreed, and

610
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: a lot of it was the healing for him in

611
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: that situation was about having his stepfather say, yes, I

612
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: care about you, you know, and I want to stand

613
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: by your mother, but I also want to support you

614
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: to get well. Now that was the turning point for him,

615
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: so he went into treatment and then did long term reham.

616
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 3: So you know, it can happen.

617
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: That people do get well, but oftentimes, you know that

618
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: if we push people too hard to go into to

619
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: recovery when they're not ready, it blows up and it

620
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: gets worse.

621
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: Anybody read the Anthony Keata's book The Sky Tissue, Remember

622
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: reading it and going, why dould keep breaking out of rehab?

623
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: Because and only once I read it when I was

624
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: still drinking. It was only once I finally realized I

625
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: had to stop for my reasons then I had Oh right,

626
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 2: That's why he just kept climbing the fence.

627
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 3: That's why he kept.

628
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: Going because he's like, I'm here because someone else pushed

629
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: me to be. I'm not here because I have destroyed everything.

630
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: Some people have what's called the rock bottom. I had

631
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: like an ocean liner on a Caribbean reef, I you know,

632
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: with the anchor, the anchor chain.

633
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 3: I dragged along the.

634
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: Bottom for years, and unfortunately or unfortunately, I had a

635
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: great job, so there was very little financial incentive for

636
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 2: me to stop, you know, because that can happen. People

637
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: can run out of money and then start stealing stuff

638
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 2: and then there's a moment. But for people who are

639
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: doing okay, there isn't that moment.

640
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: But do you know something, I think the moment's internal

641
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: when we stop getting connected to what's going on in there.

642
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: You know, whether I've got the great job of the partner,

643
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: of the kid, or whatever it is that I think

644
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: that makes me quote unquote successful when I'm pointing to

645
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: all those things, thinking, well, because I've got all those

646
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: I can't possibly be out of control.

647
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 3: Now.

648
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: Oftentimes, when people start to leave our lives, that makes.

649
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 3: People wake up. The addict wake up.

650
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: But it's often the moment of truth where I can

651
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: no longer live with the look in the eyes of

652
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: the people who love me when I do again the

653
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: very thing I said or would not do. Yeah, And

654
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: it's a moment, isn't it a moment where someone says

655
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: to you, I'm here for you. I will do whatever

656
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: it takes to help you get well, but you have

657
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: to take the first step before then I've got hands off,

658
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: so the consequences of your actions are now your own.

659
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,239
Speaker 1: And that's the hardest, sorry to keep in doing. But

660
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: that's the hardest thing for a family to do.

661
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 2: Just a moment away from the Southwest Southwest stage to say,

662
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: I've got to take a break, and while I'm here,

663
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: get on the show notes, get on the mailing list,

664
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: subscribe to the show, share it, rate it if you can.

665
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: If there's someone you're already thinking about that needs to

666
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: hear this show. While he had plays, just text it

667
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: to them, send it to them.

668
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: We're going to play some ads. We'll be right back.

669
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 3: That's what I wanted to talk about.

670
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: Any of us, who do you know more than half

671
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: of the room put up their hand, all right, think

672
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: about it. If your child was eighteen, and you know

673
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: on the street, you know, injecting drugs or whatever. You

674
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: would do anything to help them, anything, you lend them money,

675
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 2: do whatever. This kind of behavior though people don't want

676
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: to understand. People may not want to realize. People do

677
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: not realize that is enabling. Can you can you talk

678
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: a little bit about about how you can become an

679
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: enabler without realizing it.

680
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: And it brings to mine in another kind. I was

681
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: just jump into my head a mother who was supporting

682
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: her son. He was in his forties and he was

683
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: a mess, and she was going around with food do

684
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like he's a forty year

685
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: old man. And I said to her, you won't want

686
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: to hear what I have to say, and you're welcome

687
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: to ignore it if you want. Paying me for my expertise.

688
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: Stopped taking the food, stop paying the rent. So she said,

689
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: I don't want him to die, and I said, yes,

690
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: I know. And the longer you continue to do that,

691
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: the more you prolong this agony for him. Now she stopped.

692
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: It was reluctant. She had a terribly hard time doing it.

693
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 3: Oh, I get it. I'm a parent.

694
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: I would have terrible difficulty do. But I know enough

695
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: about addiction to know that the quicker that you withdraw

696
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: with all that support, the quicker they end up on

697
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: their knees, and the quicker they'll ask for help.

698
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 3: And that's where you can really be of support. Do

699
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 3: you know. We run a family program at South Pacific

700
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 3: so that after people they've.

701
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: Done their three week program, and they might even do transition,

702
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: which is another two weeks they move out impatient to

703
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: living outside in the world, they'll do family program and

704
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: they're often you'll say to clients, so would you like

705
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: your mom and dad to come or your partner or something?

706
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: They go, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't want

707
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 1: them to come in. And I will say that, well,

708
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: I don't want you to ask them. Why don't you

709
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 1: let our staff ring them and have a chat about

710
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: what's available. I have seen families who have been at

711
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 1: war for years over the addiction and the damage that's

712
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:32,959
Speaker 1: been wrought in the family system calmed to the point

713
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: where they can sit in a room and do some

714
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: work and make amends to each other and start to

715
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: agree on what the next steps are. It's powerful when

716
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: we get honest with each other about how we feel

717
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 1: and most of us I don't know in this room,

718
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: were you ever taught how to communicate with the people

719
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 1: you love? We taught how to have the hard conversations

720
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: about how somebody else's behavior impacts you. No, I was

721
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: never taught that to learn it in recovery with partners

722
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: and husbands and stuff, to actually say, you know when

723
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: you do that makes me feel like I'm not worth anything,

724
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: makes me feel like I don't matter to you. It's

725
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: hard to get really, really honest with each other. But

726
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: if we both taught the same language, you've got a chance.

727
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 3: The idea of.

728
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: Not taking feit around and not paying the rent, it's

729
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 2: a concept called loving disconnection. It sounds like the hardest

730
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: thing for a parent to do. What do you tell

731
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: parents about that? About the resistance that they're going to get?

732
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 3: Look, I always talk about the dignity of risk.

733
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: Actually, we have to give each other the opportunity to

734
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: fall on our faces. If your choice is to continue

735
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: to drinking, drink or take drugs or whatever you're doing,

736
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: and you know that it's destroying your life, and ergo

737
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: actually destroying my emotional life watching you at some level,

738
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: even though you have no choice, because you're in the

739
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: middle of addiction, you have a choice to accept some

740
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: help around it. And if you don't want to accept

741
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: that help, then I have to withdraw my support.

742
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 3: It's tough.

743
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: I would say it's the hardest thing you'll ever do

744
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: as a parent or a loved one. I mean, how

745
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: many people have left marriages or relationships because they've been

746
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: in a family with someone, have been in a relationship

747
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: with someone who's in addiction. Maybe it's the thing that

748
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: gets the addict into recovery to actually start to reach

749
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: out helm But staying won't necessarily do that.

750
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 3: It just gets ends up getting well. Yes, And I

751
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 3: mean you know as well as I do.

752
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: You know, there's support for people who are family and

753
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: friends of our colleagues and addicts, and this twelve step programs.

754
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 3: The first HAWLF step meeting I went to.

755
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 1: Alan On and now there's adult children of alcoholics and

756
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 1: dysfunctional families.

757
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 3: They've done studies, you know, for a while.

758
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: Adult Children of Alcoholics is a twelve step program that

759
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: was set up for people who, like me, were raised

760
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: in alcoholic family.

761
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 3: And what they.

762
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: Discovered through research was that if you've got if you

763
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: come from addiction of whatever, persuasion.

764
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 3: It is doesn't matter.

765
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: And you come or you come from a family system

766
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: where you have dysfunction in whatever way it presents itself.

767
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: That can be too much loving, not enough, could be neglect,

768
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: could be abandonment, could be right over at abuse in

769
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: whatever form, and there's various.

770
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 3: Levels of it.

771
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: The outcome for the child is the same, and that

772
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: is the child's traumatized and the child carries the shame

773
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: of the family system. We have to if we that

774
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: child then grows into adult, whether they're in an addiction

775
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 1: themselves or in a relationship with someone who's in addiction,

776
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: they need to get help for them. This is where

777
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: the person who's not the alcoholicanatic doesn't They think, well,

778
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: if you just get well and you stop drinking and

779
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: you stop taking drugs.

780
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 3: Then I'll be all right. No no, no, no no.

781
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 3: You need to do your own work.

782
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: And this is very hard for someone who's very functional

783
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: and has been looking after the addic.

784
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 2: I don't want to have to go to a bloody

785
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: meeting once a week because of your shit.

786
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 1: Exactly what they say to me, yes, and I say

787
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: them this, you can see what my addiction has done

788
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: to me? Can you see what it's done to you, right,

789
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: And if you can see what it's done to you,

790
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: you'll get help for that. And if you start to

791
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: work on your self esteem and your set ability to

792
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: set boundaries, ergo, don't enable, don't care, take take care

793
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: of the other things that you need to take care of,

794
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 1: you will take your hands off because you will see

795
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: that it's not helpful.

796
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 2: It can be incredibly complicated as well, because it can

797
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 2: be this is the person who might be the one

798
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: that's bringing.

799
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 3: All the money into the house.

800
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,439
Speaker 2: Yes, and for them to get well, it means them

801
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 2: not working for a month, that's right, or more, that's right.

802
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 2: That is a thing that will probably keep many people

803
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 2: from wanting to do something well.

804
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 3: It probably depends on whether they want them to live

805
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 3: or not. Well.

806
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 1: You know, I mean we're talking about it disease little

807
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: kin you Yeah?

808
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 3: I mean, will it Yeah? I mean does anybody disagree

809
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 3: with that? No?

810
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 1: I mean, if anybody's sitting in this room and they've

811
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: even been at close coortus with someone who's in active addiction,

812
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: they know the links they go to to continue to

813
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: act out in their addiction and also the addict when

814
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: they get into recovery they need to look at their

815
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: childhood trauma because a lot of it comes out of that.

816
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 2: You know, there's a couple of things I love television

817
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 2: it's been my job for twenty five years, and radio

818
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: before that. And there's a couple of things I really

819
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: dislike in television advertising. One is that the only dad

820
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 2: we see is dumb fat Dad. It's the only dad,

821
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 2: only father. We say, well for good to get the insurance, Like,

822
00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: what do.

823
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 3: We say that again? What did you say, dad? Dumb

824
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 3: fat dad?

825
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: That's the only dad you see in TV ads. He's

826
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: either dumb fat Dad or he's the you know, the

827
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 2: how do you feel he's that Guy's never you know,

828
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned, the only hi come on

829
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: in as far as I'm the only Australian father that

830
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 2: any of us should idolize and want to be like,

831
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 2: is Bandit healer He Joe Brummer is a genius and

832
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 2: he is everything that I want to be as a man,

833
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: and he's a dog. But yeah, dumb fat Dad's one

834
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 2: of the things I hate. And the other thing I

835
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: can't stand is when it's like drink responsibly, gabble responsibly,

836
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: what's it really costing? You like, because by the time

837
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: you can no longer make a choice, those two words

838
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 2: don't even come close to touching. Besides, there's no responsible

839
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 2: what would you say? What would you say to that?

840
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 2: And those the idea of like, oh, because we put

841
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: drink responsibily at the end of it, it's not our fault.

842
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 3: I think they're just trying to I don't even know.

843
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: I wouldn't know who comes up with that sort of

844
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: idea of drinking responsibly.

845
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 3: I mean, many people can it's a social responsibility. Well yeah,

846
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 3: but a lot of people can.

847
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: I mean, what are we talking about when we're talking

848
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: about addiction in the community, what are we talking ten percent?

849
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 3: Probably that means the other ninety percent can.

850
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, But if it's anything like mental health, where one

851
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: person I know the number is for every person that's

852
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: affected by mental illnesses this country, it is around one

853
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty people that have to that get caught

854
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 2: up in the ripple effected that that's true. So yeah,

855
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 2: it might be ten percent, But everybody in this room

856
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 2: knows someone that is affected by it.

857
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 3: Well, I wonder do they?

858
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 1: I mean, is there anybody here who's never been affected

859
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: by addiction or alcoholism? Or any sort of addiction.

860
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: There are self selecting group of south by Southwest.

861
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 3: No one's I shouldn't. You don't have to sit, it's

862
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 3: a right. You don't know answer what is it?

863
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 2: Because I think the other thing that really blows my

864
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 2: mind is when I see some of those ads, and

865
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 2: because I make television for a job, I know how

866
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 2: expensive it is, and I see some of these ads, go,

867
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,959
Speaker 2: holy fucking shit, those guys must have been like a

868
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 2: week of post of CGI on that. Like the profit

869
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: that is attached to gambling in this country is just.

870
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 3: I can't get my head around it.

871
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: Where are we in this country as far as gambling regulation,

872
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 2: you know, as far as the idea that, oh it's

873
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: the end user who's the one who's the problem, not ours,

874
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: Not the fact that we're using every psychological manipulative trick

875
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,720
Speaker 2: in the book to break in I think, what twenty

876
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 2: five billion dollars?

877
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, before June this year. Yeah, that's right, it's crazy. Yeah.

878
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: I heard some stats on the news this morning about gambling.

879
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: It's even astonishing, it's eye watering the amount of money

880
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: that we spend on gambling.

881
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 3: It is a big problem. There's no doubt about that.

882
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: I had a woman come to see me and she

883
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: had just blown one hundred and eighty thousand dollars. And

884
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: she came not beg because she wanted to see me,

885
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: but because she went to a friend of hers and

886
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: asked for some money to pay a gambling debt. And

887
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: he said yes initially, and then he said, actually.

888
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 3: No, I'm going to change them.

889
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to I'm going to pay for you to

890
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: go and see Diane for six sessions. She didn't think

891
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: she had a gambling addiction. Within forty five minutes, she

892
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: actually understood that she did have a gambling addiction. But

893
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: she'd been raised in a family system where everybody gambled.

894
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: I mean, it was just fascinating to me. And she

895
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: was a pokemon. She was one of the poge machine people.

896
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: And she was not the one that told me about

897
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: the distinction between page machines and online betting, just with

898
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: somebody else.

899
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 3: But it was fascinating to me how.

900
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:42,240
Speaker 1: She had just fallen into it because that's how they socialized.

901
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: They went to clubs and they paid back machines. She's now,

902
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 1: she'd be seven months clean. She hasn't had a bed

903
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: for seven months. So do you know what I mean,

904
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: And I suggested she go to Gambler's anonymous. She had

905
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 1: a problem with that. Of course, it's hard to walk

906
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: into a room of strangers and started admitting stuff. But ironically,

907
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: you know, world works in mysterious way. She rang me

908
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 1: and said, you're not going to believe this. I said,

909
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 1: what she said? I just spoke to my cousin. I went, okay.

910
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 3: She said, he's just started to go to GA two.

911
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 3: So I'm going to go to a meeting. Are you please?

912
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 3: I went, I'm delighted, you know, so she's on a way.

913
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 3: Do you know?

914
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: The thing about addiction is you need a lot of

915
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: help with the recovery. You're not going to stop using

916
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: the substance or the behavior and suddenly you're tikety boot.

917
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 2: You know you're going to Yeah, it's about how for me?

918
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: I mean, there's one thing, to stop drinking and using.

919
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: And I thought a lot of clean and sober well,

920
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: I thought I was special.

921
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 3: I thought I've stopped. I'm fine.

922
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: It was essentially like essentially, I took myself off my

923
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 2: meds and got no help because I you know, alcohol

924
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 2: is a.

925
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 3: We hate that.

926
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: Let me tell you, we hate that. That's those words

927
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: terrifying to me.

928
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 3: It's called white knuckling.

929
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: I took me off, my took myself off. My men's great.

930
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,919
Speaker 1: So when were you were, doctor, I'm the son of two.

931
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: Yeah right, I'll make qualified.

932
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 3: So yeah.

933
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:15,919
Speaker 2: So I was like a year Diane, and I did

934
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 2: not want to admit to it. I didn't want to

935
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 2: admit so badly that I'm like, I didn't want to

936
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: even admit that I had a problem.

937
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 3: So I wrote down my little book or until like I.

938
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 2: Have a healthy relationship, or I just won't drink for

939
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: a while. But about six weeks later, I was like,

940
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 2: oh fuck, I could never do it again. But I remember,

941
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 2: like really early on, once I had taken myself off.

942
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 3: This drug.

943
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 2: Alcohol is a widely available, socially acceptable depressant that is,

944
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 2: you know, self administered in dosage. And I can literally

945
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: walk down the road and we'll less than twenty bucks

946
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 2: by enough of it to kill me. But kids can't

947
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 2: test a fucking pill at a festival. I don't get

948
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 2: that shit. But fine, but yeah, everyone's fine. So I'm

949
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 2: on and it's repressing this drug, and I just went

950
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: I went no. I was proper bonkers because it just

951
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 2: it was like, wow, the fire two years.

952
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 3: Of an Actually we call that barking man barking. That's

953
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 3: a goodie. I once to work with.

954
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 2: Actually, the psychologist that debriefed me after I was in

955
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: September eleven, he did a lot of work with the

956
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: probably the same court and the judge. He helped me

957
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 2: the story when I said, the judge, yeah, my chambers filed,

958
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 2: and they go in there and say, yeah, yeah, yeah,

959
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 2: I heard everything you said. Okay, great, but is he nuts? Yeah,

960
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 2: he's nuts, thank you, and.

961
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 3: They went back out. Sometimes you just need a word.

962
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 3: God's not safe.

963
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 2: He needs help and needs to be put somewhere to sorry.

964
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 2: Sobar It was only once I started. It was only

965
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 2: once I started to deal with the toxic levels of

966
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: those eight emotions you described earlier that the day started

967
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 2: to get easier and I no longer was grinding my

968
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 2: teeth trying.

969
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 3: To get So how did you deal with them? I

970
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 3: went and sat in a special room full.

971
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 2: Of people who were wildly telling the same stories as mine.

972
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: Because I thought I was special. I thought I was

973
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 2: a special snowflake because I don't know if you realize

974
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 2: I'm andre Gi. I did that thing on TV that

975
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 2: one time. You know, I'm not that one the other one.

976
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: And then I hear a person because it was in America,

977
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: I heard a person, you know, stand up and basically

978
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 2: tell their story and it was like, oh, that's like

979
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,439
Speaker 2: a She was a sixty eight year old ex go

980
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: go dancer from Texas, and I was like, that's exactly.

981
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 3: The picture I don't want to see again.

982
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 2: She was lovely, like she was like, you know, like

983
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: I'm old, right, So there was a time when everyone

984
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 2: looked like the guy from ac DC. If you ever

985
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 2: look at a photo of a musician, you can judge

986
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 2: how big they are by the size of the instrument

987
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: or the microphone against their body. And Angus Young plays

988
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 2: Gibson this g and it's this big on him, like

989
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 2: that guitar looks like a ukulele when I hold it,

990
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 2: it's a really tiny guitar. So because they smoked darts

991
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 2: when they were about six, so this one was probably

992
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 2: four to eight, all right. As she had the voice

993
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 2: like that the IoT here doing that acts of that,

994
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: and that she told that story with that voice, I

995
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 2: was like, oh, that's exactly my story.

996
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 3: I'm not a special snowflake.

997
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 2: I'm just a bog standard fucking alcoholic like everybody else.

998
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: But that meant that the things that she did to

999
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 2: get clean would work for me as well.

1000
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: And they did, And it means you come out of denial, yes,

1001
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: about being the special one.

1002
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 2: That is the hard part, you know, because my ego

1003
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 2: is gigantic. I was in an unplanned argument with my

1004
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 2: wife at midnight last night based upon my fu an ego. Well,

1005
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: the men's run out later in the day they do.

1006
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 2: It's it's it's rough, but it's you know, I'm still

1007
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 2: learning how to you know, manage that.

1008
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 3: I can't sleep with that anyway. It's long, long, bloody tale.

1009
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: But you know, it's a when I think about gambling particularly,

1010
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 2: and you know you mentioned this woman grew up in

1011
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 2: a family of gamblings, online gambling, of phone gambling, Like

1012
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 2: what is that?

1013
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 3: Do you think?

1014
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: What could that be doing to families in Australia right now?

1015
00:48:57,920 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 3: Destroying them my adventuress.

1016
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: But of course now we have mobile gambling so that

1017
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 1: you can self exclude. And if you do that and

1018
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 1: then you decide a month or two later you want

1019
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: to go back onto it, it's extremely laborious to get

1020
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: back onto it and not undo it. So I do

1021
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: think that's one good.

1022
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 3: Step in the right direction.

1023
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 2: It's not that there are like thirteen other betting apps

1024
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: that you.

1025
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 3: Can well, that's true, but I think it's across the board.

1026
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: There was a client that came who had He was

1027
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: very sophisticated, and I have since discovered a lot of

1028
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: them do this.

1029
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 3: They'll have sort of separate.

1030
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: Bank accounts over here that nobody else knows about, and

1031
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: you know, suddenly you get a pay rise, or you

1032
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: get a bonus, or you get something from the and

1033
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: the money goes into that account, doesn't go into the

1034
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 1: count that the family see. And he's been clean now

1035
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: for a long time and actually does a lot of

1036
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: work with gamblers himself, so.

1037
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 3: Recovery is possible. But that all makes sense. That's the thing.

1038
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 2: Like for the person who lives with the addict or

1039
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 2: the person that loves the addict, you're seeing them do

1040
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 2: these saying things yeah, and wondering how could you do that?

1041
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 3: How could you do that? Well, I know in his

1042
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:06,760
Speaker 3: case he was going to lose everything.

1043
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: It was go to South the wife, go to South Pacific,

1044
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: get sorted, or you're.

1045
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 2: Out understanding that the addict is doing that thing because

1046
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 2: that is the best option available to them. Yeah, is

1047
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: a hard thing to get to. How would you help

1048
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: people kind of understand that about their their their husband,

1049
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 2: or their child or their friend.

1050
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: I think probably you've just got to explain addiction to

1051
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: them and the fact that then the addict's not doing

1052
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:35,879
Speaker 1: it to you.

1053
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 3: It feels like it, well one of the one getting

1054
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 3: they're doing it.

1055
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: They're doing it to themselves. You're just getting you're in

1056
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: the fallout. So whoever was in that addict's life was

1057
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: going to cop that behavior. But of course the non

1058
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: alcoholic you know, would take it. Quite honestly, you take

1059
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 1: it personally, Why wouldn't you if you loved me? And

1060
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: I know it sounds tweet to say it, it's like,

1061
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 1: if you loved me, or you can about me, you

1062
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: do something about this. You can't reconcile the person that

1063
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: you married or committed to X amount of years ago

1064
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: to the behavior that they're now exhibiting in the relationship.

1065
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: It's like the person that you committed to all those

1066
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 1: years ago is gone. They've been lost in the malstream

1067
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: of their addiction. And not until that gets sort of

1068
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: do they do it. The other thing I want to

1069
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: say to you about you mentioned in your recovery about

1070
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: getting to groups with the emotions.

1071
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 3: But a lot of that's childhood trauma work, isn't it. Oh?

1072
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was operating on a set of

1073
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 2: parameters that I've been going off since I was in

1074
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 2: that psychiatristol.

1075
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you were five.

1076
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And those decisions were made by a five

1077
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 2: year old who was a jumpy, scared kid, and I

1078
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:51,240
Speaker 2: was still.

1079
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:52,240
Speaker 3: Running by those Yeah.

1080
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 2: But the brilliant thing about brains is that despite my

1081
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 2: best efforts to destroy my prefrontal cortex before the age

1082
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 2: of twenty five, they can regrow, which is extraordinary, and

1083
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 2: you can find new patterns of behavior.

1084
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 3: Its work, but it really can be done.

1085
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 2: But the idea of you to talk about how addiction

1086
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:15,280
Speaker 2: can also be criminalized in our country in many ways,

1087
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 2: certainly by the justice system understanding that that is the

1088
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 2: best thing that this person could do right now, young

1089
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: Diana eighteen shooting up on the street, that's the best

1090
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: option she's got. That kind of I guess that gives

1091
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: you a different perspective on how to then deal with

1092
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 2: this person who may be involved in some criminality or something.

1093
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 1: Doesn't it do you know, it's a very interesting thing

1094
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:41,879
Speaker 1: because I mean that was a very long time ago.

1095
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 3: You know, I'm going to out myself now I'm sixty

1096
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 3: six years old.

1097
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: I know I look fabulous. It's okay, I really do,

1098
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: thank you. But I can remember the judge when it

1099
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: came to the sentencing. I was involved with three other

1100
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: men in this thing. They were all going to jarl

1101
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: and it got to my turn. I didn't know this,

1102
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: by the way. I felt very crestfallen when he asked

1103
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,839
Speaker 1: for character witnesses and I thought, oh my god, I

1104
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 1: have nobody to speak for me.

1105
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 3: Now.

1106
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 1: I was two years in recovery, so I had gotten

1107
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: a job in a very conservative insurance company.

1108
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 3: And I'm going back a long time.

1109
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 1: But you had to wear a frock to work. You

1110
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: were not as a woman. You were not allowed to

1111
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 1: wear pants. I have endured many things like this in

1112
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 1: my life book.

1113
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 2: We gave you the vote and I stop complaining and.

1114
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 3: My boss.

1115
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: I had gone to my boss and said to him, look,

1116
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: I have to resign, and he said why And I said, look,

1117
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: do you remember I told you I had a little

1118
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:41,760
Speaker 1: bit of a problem with Alchohalin jokes at the beginning

1119
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: and you've given me a chance and he said yea.

1120
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 1: I said, well, I left one of the part of

1121
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: the story out and he said, what's that? And I said,

1122
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to jail and he went, whoa,

1123
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: hang on, what's.

1124
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 3: Going on now?

1125
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: He said to me, I don't want you to resign.

1126
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: I want you just to go do what you've got

1127
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 1: to do. The trial went for two weeks. I was

1128
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: in Jailford and silver Water Prison for two weeks. Truly,

1129
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: you don't want to be there for a day. And

1130
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: when they call for character witness, my boss, mister Perkins,

1131
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: had gone to mister Thompson, his boss, because that's how

1132
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: we called everybody. We didn't call them by first name,

1133
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: and mister Thompson spoke.

1134
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 3: On my behalf.

1135
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 1: Now the judge shut the barristers up, said sit down,

1136
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 1: sit down, sit down, and then said to this man,

1137
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: if I give her a bond rather than send her

1138
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:31,879
Speaker 1: to jail, will she keep her job? And he said yes,

1139
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: And he said what's she like as an employee?

1140
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 3: Now? I don't know what you.

1141
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 1: Were like in early recovery, but I had a lot

1142
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: to make up for, so I worked really hard. I

1143
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 1: didn't ask for overtime. I was grateful for whatever I

1144
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 1: was getting right. I mean, I was determined not to

1145
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: go back to where i'd come from. And I could see,

1146
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: because I sat in the same rooms you did, that

1147
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 1: people had gotten well and created massively fabulous lives if

1148
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: they stayed well. And he said to mister Thompson said yes,

1149
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: she had a job, and he went okay. And then

1150
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: a friend of mine, who was a deputy matron mainly hospital,

1151
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: came and spoke. And this is in the days when

1152
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 1: methadone was just coming in and I didn't use methadone.

1153
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: I cold turkey in my withdrawals. It was no fun,

1154
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 1: I can tell you, and I remember every.

1155
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 3: Minute of it. That's another reason I won't go back there.

1156
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,839
Speaker 1: And he asked her the same, He said, now tell

1157
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 1: me about has she I didn't know this man knew

1158
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: so much about drugs because it wasn't known widely in

1159
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: the days. He said, when she did her with draws,

1160
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 1: did she do them with methadone or cold turkey? And

1161
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: she said cold turkey And he looked at me and

1162
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 1: he said, that's impressive.

1163
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 3: I wasn't feeling great.

1164
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: I got to tell you because he'd done that, you know,

1165
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: seven years, five years, four years. I was thinking, well, god,

1166
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: I've got to go for two or three and he said,

1167
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 1: he gave.

1168
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 3: Me a five year bond.

1169
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: And he said, you report every week and you do

1170
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 1: urine samples, and if I get one urine sample that

1171
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: says you've used, or you miss one parole meeting. I

1172
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 1: was wash, issue warrant for your rest, and you're going

1173
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: to do the five years. I didn't miss a day,

1174
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: I can tell you.

1175
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 3: So there are times.

1176
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: Where the justice system will stand up if it can

1177
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: in my instance.

1178
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 3: And as you know, the drug Court.

1179
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,439
Speaker 1: We're talking to people in the Barrisses Association about trying

1180
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: to reshape the drug Court, get it up and running.

1181
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 2: Now, because it's a difficult thing for certain broadcasters to

1182
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 2: get their head around to decriminalize, of course, drinking and using.

1183
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 1: Of course, because they sit in there better than you know.

1184
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: I am the great voice. I am the one who knows.

1185
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: If you talk to them one on one, they know

1186
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: that it's nonsense.

1187
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 2: Because it's easy to, I guess, you know, stump up

1188
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 2: at a political rally and say tough on crime. But

1189
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 2: what are you ultimately doing. You're taking someone who's very

1190
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 2: vulnerable who's doing the very best they can with what

1191
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 2: they've got in front of them to try to not

1192
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 2: feel horrible. And you know that they're not doing it

1193
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,399
Speaker 2: because they hate society. They're doing it because they can't

1194
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 2: stand the pain.

1195
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 3: Well, they do it because they hate themselves.

1196
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,799
Speaker 2: Wow, that's as interesting, is it?

1197
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 3: You know? I can't remember the phrase.

1198
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 2: It's like you do when the fear of change, when

1199
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 2: the fear of change outweighed the pain of staying the

1200
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 2: same and waiting for that. What would you say to

1201
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 2: people who are waiting for their loved one, their family member,

1202
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 2: their friend, whatever to get to that point, what.

1203
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 3: Would you say?

1204
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: I would say them, without question, go and get help

1205
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: for yourself. Reach out and get your own support because

1206
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 1: the way you interact with the people that you love

1207
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: that maybe in addiction, will have a massive effect on

1208
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 1: the ability of that person.

1209
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 3: To reach out for help. It's critical that they get

1210
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:48,919
Speaker 3: the help.

1211
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: The non alcoholic and the non addictive person gets the

1212
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: help because trust me, it's whether you like it or not,

1213
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: it's affecting you very deeply.

1214
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 3: Quality your next relationship.

1215
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: To well, absolutely, yes, you leave this one and guess

1216
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: what you'll be in the relationship. And I did see

1217
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 1: a woman the other day of kind of mine that

1218
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 1: demanded he wanted to bring his partner in right, and

1219
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 1: he's had addiction problems. And she was very high and

1220
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,959
Speaker 1: mighty godlover. And I said to her, there's a reason

1221
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: why your first husband was a chronic gambler and this

1222
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 1: one's a drug addict. You are the common denominator and

1223
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: you need to go and get help. And she was stunned,

1224
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 1: and I said, and you won't like what I'm saying.

1225
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,439
Speaker 1: But his two addresses go to this meeting, do half

1226
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 1: a dozen meetings, come back and tell me that it

1227
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything to you. Give up six hours of

1228
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 1: your life and see what Whether there's going to be

1229
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 1: a change. I mean, when you stand at the coal

1230
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 1: face with people you know, and you see them and

1231
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 1: they they're at a turning point. Am I going to

1232
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 1: try for recovery and maybe fail. That's at least a

1233
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: chance that something will stick. Or do I just continue

1234
00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: to go down the raida. When you stand at the

1235
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 1: coal with people and the people that love them, you

1236
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: want to be firm. I'm not wishy washy. When I

1237
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: work with clients. I know many can do that it's

1238
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 1: not where I come from. So if people come and

1239
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: see me, they generally come because they actually want to

1240
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: affect some sort of change in their life, you know,

1241
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: because we don't want the people that are that we

1242
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 1: love to be suffering in the way that we do.

1243
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: And I don't think any of us particularly want to

1244
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: be suffering ourselves. I mean I don't, and I know

1245
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 1: there's a solution to all of it. I would say

1246
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 1: categorically that I am not shackled by any of the

1247
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 1: rubbish and the madness and the shame and the abuse

1248
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: that went on in my earlier life, and it's because of.

1249
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 3: The work I've done.

1250
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 1: Now not everybody has to do the level of stuff

1251
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 1: I do. Maybe you're not as broken as I was,

1252
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: that's okay.

1253
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 3: I'm pleased if you're not. But I do know that

1254
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 3: if you want to recover, you can recover. You can

1255
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 3: change the way that you are in your life, irrespective

1256
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 3: of whatever it is, and the gift.

1257
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 2: That that gives not only your daughter, but your grandkids children,

1258
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 2: that's right, because they will never see the partterns of

1259
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 2: behavior they have been that might be two hundred years old.

1260
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 2: Let's be honest, they will never and it's our opportunity

1261
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 2: to stop that.

1262
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 1: And I say to clients, you know, when I'm working

1263
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 1: in the Changes program, which is the childhood Trauma programmer

1264
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 1: right on specific, I feel like when I started to

1265
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 1: seriously get well, it's like I stood, you know, my

1266
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 1: daughter behind me, and I stood with my arms out

1267
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 1: like this and you know, my parents, my daughter, whatever,

1268
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 1: and it's like it stops here. If I can stop

1269
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,959
Speaker 1: the trauma coming down the road to these two little

1270
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 1: puppets that are now eight and six and spend most

1271
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 1: of their life skipping, you know, as eight and six

1272
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 1: year olds are supposed to, then I will do the work.

1273
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 1: And if you're a parent, or you have nieces or

1274
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: nephews or whatever you've got in your life, grandchildren, god children,

1275
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 1: whatever they are, you do the work for them so

1276
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: that we don't pass it on. That's the beauty of

1277
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 1: the work, in my opinion.

1278
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 3: Has anyone here never been to therapy? Anybody? They've all

1279
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 3: been right right, So you might have an.

1280
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 2: Idea about what a psychologist is. You might have been

1281
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 2: to one. That's your fucking wish that Diana's your shrink.

1282
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 2: I know, I swear mate, you are next level. I'm

1283
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 2: so grateful that you're in the world because the message

1284
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 2: that you have and the way that you have it,

1285
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 2: the language that you use, the way you put it

1286
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 2: across is it just really is so freaking great. I

1287
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 2: did have an audience mic, but we run out of

1288
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 2: time because I just didn't want to not let Diane speak.

1289
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 3: She's incredible. Ladies and gentlemen, Diane Young, thank you, Thanks

1290
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 3: for coming. Thanks sure, thanks for being a part of it.

1291
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 3: That was Diane Young.

1292
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 2: If you or someone you know who needs help, and

1293
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 2: you may not have realized until you listened to that, you.

1294
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 3: Might have identified with a few things in there. Look,

1295
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 3: there's plenty of help out there.

1296
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 2: Plenty, Get to a meeting, call Lifeline, call your doctor.

1297
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 2: South Pacific Private where Diane works. They're not the only

1298
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 2: place to do what they do. They have sponsored the show.

1299
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 2: I'm very familiar with the work that they do, so

1300
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 2: I do talk about them a bit. I've met a

1301
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 2: couple of people that have gone through there and they

1302
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 2: have amazing stories. But they're not the only show in town.

1303
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 2: What works for you is what works, okay, but I'll

1304
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 2: tell you what it doesn't work.

1305
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 3: Not getting help. That never works.

1306
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 2: Once you're over that point, doing it yourself is next

1307
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Speaker 2: to impossible. Let's not say it can't happen, but I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't count it massive. Thanks to everyone they helped me

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Speaker 2: make this show today. Thank you so much to Matt Sofo,

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Speaker 2: Conrad and Hendricks on audio post, Mikey Ward on video post,

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Speaker 2: Minica Chapman for helping us get everything together today.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for listening, and I'll see you back here Friday.

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Speaker 1: M