WEBVTT - Is Australia supplying weapons to Israel?

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<v Speaker 1>Sunrise over Gaza City and the sound of Israeli surveillance

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<v Speaker 1>drones is constant.

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<v Speaker 2>As Israel's assault on Gaza City continues. Israeli aircraft and

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<v Speaker 2>tanks have pounded the eastern and northern outskirts of the city,

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<v Speaker 2>destroying buildings and.

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<v Speaker 1>Homes, searching out what the Israelis claim other final strongholds

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<v Speaker 1>of Hamas.

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<v Speaker 2>It comes as a record number of Australians turned out

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<v Speaker 2>this weekend in protest against the war, and as the

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<v Speaker 2>relationship between the Australian and Israeli government worsens. But while

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<v Speaker 2>Australia moves to recognize a Palestinian state, it continues its

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<v Speaker 2>military and trade relations with Israel, supplying parts that allow

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<v Speaker 2>planes to drop bombs on Gaza. I'm Ruby Jones and

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<v Speaker 2>you're listening to seven AM today. Co founder of Declassified

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<v Speaker 2>Australia and author of The Palestine Laboratory, Anthony Lowenstein on Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>Israel and the difference between what we say and what

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<v Speaker 2>we do. It's Tuesday, August twenty six. Anthony, You've spent

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of time investigating Israel's weapons and surveillance capability.

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to begin this conversation talking about one weapon

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<v Speaker 2>in particular, that is the F thirty five fighter jets.

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<v Speaker 2>So tell me a bit about it.

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<v Speaker 3>So this is a jet that's been developed over decades,

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<v Speaker 3>principally by Lockheed Martin, which is an American defense company,

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<v Speaker 3>one of the biggest in the world, and a number

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<v Speaker 3>of countries have this plane. Israel's not the only one

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<v Speaker 3>that does, but Israel was the first country in twenty

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<v Speaker 3>eighteen that actually used it in war.

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<v Speaker 4>At Lockheed Martin, our mission is to keep you mission.

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<v Speaker 3>Ready, and the F thirty five Lightning II delivers.

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<v Speaker 2>When advanced engineering matters most when air superiority requires superior technology,

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<v Speaker 2>when precision means you're for our possibilities. The F thirty

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<v Speaker 2>five is a step ahead.

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<v Speaker 3>And there's something called a global supply chain, which essentially

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<v Speaker 3>means that a number of countries provide weapons parts that

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<v Speaker 3>are usually sent via the US to Israel. Sometimes they

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<v Speaker 3>go directly to Israel. So we're talking about countries like Australia,

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<v Speaker 3>the UK, Holland and others provide parts. For example, Australia

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<v Speaker 3>provides the Bombay doors. Australia provides parts of the visor

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<v Speaker 3>that the pilot would use so Australia's role in this

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<v Speaker 3>is quite central to the ability for that plane to fly.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so tell me more about that part, the Bombay

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<v Speaker 2>doors and Australia's role in the supply chain.

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<v Speaker 3>Essentially, when the plane monts to drop a bomb over

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<v Speaker 3>Gaza or anywhere, the mechanism that allows that door to

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<v Speaker 3>open and then the bomb to drop is made in Australia.

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<v Speaker 3>No one else in the world makes this part. There

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<v Speaker 3>are companies, for example, in Melbourne and in Brisbane and elsewhere.

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<v Speaker 3>They send these parts, mostly to the US who then

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<v Speaker 3>construct it in the US and then mostly it's sent

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<v Speaker 3>to Israel. Now the companies themselves when they get asked,

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<v Speaker 3>and we as they classified, have sometimes written to these

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<v Speaker 3>companies to ask what they're doing and how it works,

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<v Speaker 3>and what they're contributing to and are they aware that

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<v Speaker 3>they are potentially in violation of international law by contributing

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<v Speaker 3>to a plane that is being used over Gaza When

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<v Speaker 3>gross human rights abuses are occurring. The response is either

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<v Speaker 3>no response or saying that we do everything legally. That's

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<v Speaker 3>the short version.

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<v Speaker 5>If there is a concern on Australia's part about international

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<v Speaker 5>law being violated here, I'm just wondering what further steps

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<v Speaker 5>might be taken here. Germany is going to block or

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<v Speaker 5>suspend arm sales to Israel that could be used in Gaza.

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<v Speaker 5>What about the armored steel and the F thirty five

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<v Speaker 5>components that are stray contributes? Would they be blocked?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's be clear, we don't supply weapons to Israel.

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<v Speaker 5>The armed steel and the thirty five components is what

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<v Speaker 5>I'm asking about.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, well, we're inn F thirty five country and we

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<v Speaker 3>have been that for one of the ways that Australia,

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<v Speaker 3>Australian government officials, Defense Department officials and again it's not

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<v Speaker 3>unique to Australia, but have been doing since October seven,

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<v Speaker 3>have been saying that this part is dual use. This

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<v Speaker 3>is not a weapon. That's simply a piece of metal

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<v Speaker 3>that is attached to a plane, but the fact is

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<v Speaker 3>that the plane needs that to be able to open

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<v Speaker 3>a space that allows a bomb to fall.

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<v Speaker 1>We are not supplying weapons to Israel.

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<v Speaker 3>And when Richard Miles was on Insiders on ABC a

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<v Speaker 3>few weeks ago, he said his words, we're an F

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<v Speaker 3>thirty five nation, and he said that proudly for decades.

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<v Speaker 3>Now that's true, but the F thirty five is not

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<v Speaker 3>some benign plane that simply flies around at air shows.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a deadly weapon that is used in war and

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<v Speaker 3>is currently being used over Gaza since October seven. So

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<v Speaker 3>what legal experts have said to us are declassified, but

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<v Speaker 3>also have said in the public, is that not just

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<v Speaker 3>austrating government ministers, but the weapons manufacturer but also the

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<v Speaker 3>producers of these parts could be legally vulnerable to court

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<v Speaker 3>cases in years to come for contributing to a system

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<v Speaker 3>that is used by a nation credibly accused of genocide.

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<v Speaker 2>So tell me about that. Have we seen court cases

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<v Speaker 2>against any other countries that are exporting parts to Israel?

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<v Speaker 3>So in the UK, legal experts and others took the

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<v Speaker 3>British government to court on this very issue, essentially saying

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<v Speaker 3>that Britain is contributing to the F thirty five supply chain,

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<v Speaker 3>contributing and supporting what Israel is doing in Gaza. The

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<v Speaker 3>British government should stop. Now. The British government's response, and

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<v Speaker 3>again i'm paraphrasing, people can find the exact words online,

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<v Speaker 3>is this would deeply negatively impact our relationship with America

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<v Speaker 3>and the US Alliance, and therefore we can't stop it.

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<v Speaker 4>Indeed, the effects of suspending all licenses for the F

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<v Speaker 4>thirty five program would undermine the global F thirty flight

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<v Speaker 4>supply chain that is vital for the security of the UK.

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<v Speaker 2>Are allies in this.

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<v Speaker 1>And if we were to stop that, they couldn't be

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<v Speaker 1>used by other countries in the other conflicts, including those

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<v Speaker 1>in which we are involved.

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<v Speaker 3>And the High Court found in the government's favor, there's

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<v Speaker 3>going to be an appeal in Holland. The Dutch government

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<v Speaker 3>was taken to court. There's been various decisions and appeals.

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<v Speaker 3>The current situation is as far as I understand, at

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<v Speaker 3>least officially, that the Dutch government does no longer send

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<v Speaker 3>weapons parts to Israel, and I have no doubt that

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<v Speaker 3>if this went to court in Australia, you would find

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<v Speaker 3>the Australian government saying, and again are my words not theirs,

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<v Speaker 3>we cannot stop sending these parts to America to Israel

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<v Speaker 3>because that would negatively impact our relationship with Washington. I

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<v Speaker 3>think people have to understand that there is a profound

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<v Speaker 3>disconnect between the increasing angry rehtoric we hear from Penny Wog,

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<v Speaker 3>Anthony Albernezi, Tony Burke about what Israel is doing and

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<v Speaker 3>the reality of what our policy is that we continue

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<v Speaker 3>to be a close alive of Israel, supporting them economically,

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<v Speaker 3>financially and militarily, despite the growing anger that we hear

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<v Speaker 3>in the voice of Australian government ministers.

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<v Speaker 2>Coming up what sanctions could look like.

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<v Speaker 4>Now you've written a withering letter to Australian Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 4>Anthony ALBANIZI, why do you believe history will remember him

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<v Speaker 4>as a weak politician?

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<v Speaker 6>Well, look, I'm sure he has a reputable record as

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<v Speaker 6>a public servant, but I think his record is forever

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<v Speaker 6>tarnished by the weakness that he showed in the face

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<v Speaker 6>of these commace terrorist monsters Anthony.

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<v Speaker 2>Last week, tensions between Australia and Israel intensified, with Benjamin

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<v Speaker 2>Netnya who repeatedly calling Anthony Albanesi week. This of course

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<v Speaker 2>follows Albanesi saying that he'll recognize the Palestinian state. So

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<v Speaker 2>how do you see the frame of diplomacy impacting the

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<v Speaker 2>deals that you've laid out.

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<v Speaker 3>Look, a diplomatic relationship, obviously between Australia and Israel is

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<v Speaker 3>not in good shape. But I think it's worth saying

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<v Speaker 3>that I think a lot of this is kabuki theater.

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<v Speaker 3>For example, days after the Russian invasion of Ukrainian twenty

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<v Speaker 3>twenty two, Australia was putting on sanctions on the Russian government,

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<v Speaker 3>Russian businesses, Russian oligarchs. None of that similar behavior has

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<v Speaker 3>been done against Israel, Israeli companies, Australian companies involved with Israel.

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<v Speaker 3>None of that has happened.

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<v Speaker 2>And tell me a bit about which countries have actually

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<v Speaker 2>stopped exporting. Germany, for instance, is saying that there is

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<v Speaker 2>a partial arms export band now.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, That's what Germany is saying. That's what the British

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<v Speaker 3>have said as well. It is it's nonsense. Certain things

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<v Speaker 3>are not maybe being exported anymore. But Germany is the

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<v Speaker 3>second biggest provider of weapons to Israel after the US,

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<v Speaker 3>has been for years. It massively expanded after October seven.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's a lot to do with what German officials

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<v Speaker 3>see as their historical responsibility because of their complicity in

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<v Speaker 3>the Holocaust in World War two, and therefore they see

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<v Speaker 3>it as their moral duty to support Israel regardless of

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<v Speaker 3>its actions. It's worth saying, though, that public opinion polls

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<v Speaker 3>in Germany have found for months that the majority of

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<v Speaker 3>Germans want Germany to stop selling weapons or weapons parts.

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<v Speaker 3>But thus far, despite what the Germans are saying, there

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<v Speaker 3>is still a weapons flow. For example, after that announcement,

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<v Speaker 3>the Germans still signed a submarine deal with Israel. In

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<v Speaker 3>other words, the flow of armaments has not stopped. Australia, Britain, France,

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<v Speaker 3>all these countries in the last months that have come

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<v Speaker 3>out clearly and said we're going to recognize a Palestinian

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<v Speaker 3>state in September, they're still trading. They're still sending weapons parts.

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<v Speaker 3>Some of them are sending actual weapons. The British government,

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<v Speaker 3>for example, is training some Israeli soldiers on British soil.

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<v Speaker 3>So none of these relationships have stopped or slowed down.

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<v Speaker 3>What has been so frustrating is that the vast, vast

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<v Speaker 3>bulk of the Australian mainstream media have not challenge the

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<v Speaker 3>Australian government enough on these questions and simply have accepted

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<v Speaker 3>when a government minister says, well, we don't sell weapons.

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<v Speaker 2>To Israel the end, why do you think that is?

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<v Speaker 3>I think there is still a fear in many parts

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<v Speaker 3>of the mainstream press of being seen to be too

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<v Speaker 3>critical of Israel because you are you fear being accused

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<v Speaker 3>of anti Semitism by the Israel lobby or others. I

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<v Speaker 3>think there's also, frankly, a deep strain of profound racism

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<v Speaker 3>that exists in much of the Australian press. I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>saying every journalist is racist, That's not what I mean.

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<v Speaker 3>What I mean is that there is an unwillingness to

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<v Speaker 3>somehow accept or believe, and this is I'm talking about

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<v Speaker 3>management level here to accept or believe, for example, that

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<v Speaker 3>the over two hundred Palestinian journalists who have been murdered

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<v Speaker 3>by Israel are they really journalists? Really are they? Or

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<v Speaker 3>are they maybe hamas terrorists? I guarantee if Russia had

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<v Speaker 3>killed over two hundred gens less, that questioning would be different.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, ultimately, if Western journalists had been allowed into

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<v Speaker 3>Gaza since October seven, I suspect the coverage would be

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<v Speaker 3>quite different. And yet we have Palestinian journalists doing the

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<v Speaker 3>unbelievably hard work of reporting, showing, filming what is going on.

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<v Speaker 3>But sometime there's this belief and this is not unique

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<v Speaker 3>to Australia. It's the same in the US, in the

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<v Speaker 3>UK and Europe have not kind of quite believing them.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Anthony, thank you so much for speaking with me today.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks so much for having me Ruby.

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<v Speaker 2>Also in the news today, the loan survivor of Aaron

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<v Speaker 2>Patterson's deadly beef, Wellington Lunch, has said he forgives the

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<v Speaker 2>triple murderer. In an emotional victim impact statement at the

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<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court yesterday in Wilkinson said he bears Patterson no

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<v Speaker 2>ill will and encouraged her to spend her time in

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<v Speaker 2>jail becoming a better person. Mister Wilkinson paid tribute to

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<v Speaker 2>his late wife, Heather, who was killed by Patterson, and

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<v Speaker 2>said while he could forgive her for what she did

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<v Speaker 2>to him, he is compelled to seek justice for what

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<v Speaker 2>Aaron Patterson did to Heather, as well as Don and

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<v Speaker 2>Gayale Patterson. A date for Aaron Patterson's sentencing hearing has

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<v Speaker 2>not yet been set, and universities are set to be

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<v Speaker 2>bound by a legislated code of conduct to better respond

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<v Speaker 2>to and prevent gender based violence. The legislation, to be

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<v Speaker 2>introduced by Education Minister Jason Clare, follows multiple reports over

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<v Speaker 2>many years showing alarming numbers of sexual assault on campus.

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<v Speaker 2>The latest figures gathered in twenty twenty one by Universities

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<v Speaker 2>Australia showed one in six students experienced sexual harassment, while

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<v Speaker 2>one in twenty had been sexually assaulted. New figures are

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<v Speaker 2>expected to be released next year. I'm Ruby Jones this

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<v Speaker 2>seven am. Thanks for listening.

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<v Speaker 4>Alow on one