Speaker 1: Sunrise over Gaza City and the sound of Israeli surveillance
Speaker 1: drones is constant.
Speaker 2: As Israel's assault on Gaza City continues. Israeli aircraft and
Speaker 2: tanks have pounded the eastern and northern outskirts of the city,
Speaker 2: destroying buildings and.
Speaker 1: Homes, searching out what the Israelis claim other final strongholds
Speaker 1: of Hamas.
Speaker 2: It comes as a record number of Australians turned out
Speaker 2: this weekend in protest against the war, and as the
Speaker 2: relationship between the Australian and Israeli government worsens. But while
Speaker 2: Australia moves to recognize a Palestinian state, it continues its
Speaker 2: military and trade relations with Israel, supplying parts that allow
Speaker 2: planes to drop bombs on Gaza. I'm Ruby Jones and
Speaker 2: you're listening to seven AM today. Co founder of Declassified
Speaker 2: Australia and author of The Palestine Laboratory, Anthony Lowenstein on Australia,
Speaker 2: Israel and the difference between what we say and what
Speaker 2: we do. It's Tuesday, August twenty six. Anthony, You've spent
Speaker 2: a lot of time investigating Israel's weapons and surveillance capability.
Speaker 2: I wanted to begin this conversation talking about one weapon
Speaker 2: in particular, that is the F thirty five fighter jets.
Speaker 2: So tell me a bit about it.
Speaker 3: So this is a jet that's been developed over decades,
Speaker 3: principally by Lockheed Martin, which is an American defense company,
Speaker 3: one of the biggest in the world, and a number
Speaker 3: of countries have this plane. Israel's not the only one
Speaker 3: that does, but Israel was the first country in twenty
Speaker 3: eighteen that actually used it in war.
Speaker 4: At Lockheed Martin, our mission is to keep you mission.
Speaker 3: Ready, and the F thirty five Lightning II delivers.
Speaker 2: When advanced engineering matters most when air superiority requires superior technology,
Speaker 2: when precision means you're for our possibilities. The F thirty
Speaker 2: five is a step ahead.
Speaker 3: And there's something called a global supply chain, which essentially
Speaker 3: means that a number of countries provide weapons parts that
Speaker 3: are usually sent via the US to Israel. Sometimes they
Speaker 3: go directly to Israel. So we're talking about countries like Australia,
Speaker 3: the UK, Holland and others provide parts. For example, Australia
Speaker 3: provides the Bombay doors. Australia provides parts of the visor
Speaker 3: that the pilot would use so Australia's role in this
Speaker 3: is quite central to the ability for that plane to fly.
Speaker 2: Okay, so tell me more about that part, the Bombay
Speaker 2: doors and Australia's role in the supply chain.
Speaker 3: Essentially, when the plane monts to drop a bomb over
Speaker 3: Gaza or anywhere, the mechanism that allows that door to
Speaker 3: open and then the bomb to drop is made in Australia.
Speaker 3: No one else in the world makes this part. There
Speaker 3: are companies, for example, in Melbourne and in Brisbane and elsewhere.
Speaker 3: They send these parts, mostly to the US who then
Speaker 3: construct it in the US and then mostly it's sent
Speaker 3: to Israel. Now the companies themselves when they get asked,
Speaker 3: and we as they classified, have sometimes written to these
Speaker 3: companies to ask what they're doing and how it works,
Speaker 3: and what they're contributing to and are they aware that
Speaker 3: they are potentially in violation of international law by contributing
Speaker 3: to a plane that is being used over Gaza When
Speaker 3: gross human rights abuses are occurring. The response is either
Speaker 3: no response or saying that we do everything legally. That's
Speaker 3: the short version.
Speaker 5: If there is a concern on Australia's part about international
Speaker 5: law being violated here, I'm just wondering what further steps
Speaker 5: might be taken here. Germany is going to block or
Speaker 5: suspend arm sales to Israel that could be used in Gaza.
Speaker 5: What about the armored steel and the F thirty five
Speaker 5: components that are stray contributes? Would they be blocked?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Well, let's be clear, we don't supply weapons to Israel.
Speaker 5: The armed steel and the thirty five components is what
Speaker 5: I'm asking about.
Speaker 3: Well, well, we're inn F thirty five country and we
Speaker 3: have been that for one of the ways that Australia,
Speaker 3: Australian government officials, Defense Department officials and again it's not
Speaker 3: unique to Australia, but have been doing since October seven,
Speaker 3: have been saying that this part is dual use. This
Speaker 3: is not a weapon. That's simply a piece of metal
Speaker 3: that is attached to a plane, but the fact is
Speaker 3: that the plane needs that to be able to open
Speaker 3: a space that allows a bomb to fall.
Speaker 1: We are not supplying weapons to Israel.
Speaker 3: And when Richard Miles was on Insiders on ABC a
Speaker 3: few weeks ago, he said his words, we're an F
Speaker 3: thirty five nation, and he said that proudly for decades.
Speaker 3: Now that's true, but the F thirty five is not
Speaker 3: some benign plane that simply flies around at air shows.
Speaker 3: It's a deadly weapon that is used in war and
Speaker 3: is currently being used over Gaza since October seven. So
Speaker 3: what legal experts have said to us are declassified, but
Speaker 3: also have said in the public, is that not just
Speaker 3: austrating government ministers, but the weapons manufacturer but also the
Speaker 3: producers of these parts could be legally vulnerable to court
Speaker 3: cases in years to come for contributing to a system
Speaker 3: that is used by a nation credibly accused of genocide.
Speaker 2: So tell me about that. Have we seen court cases
Speaker 2: against any other countries that are exporting parts to Israel?
Speaker 3: So in the UK, legal experts and others took the
Speaker 3: British government to court on this very issue, essentially saying
Speaker 3: that Britain is contributing to the F thirty five supply chain,
Speaker 3: contributing and supporting what Israel is doing in Gaza. The
Speaker 3: British government should stop. Now. The British government's response, and
Speaker 3: again i'm paraphrasing, people can find the exact words online,
Speaker 3: is this would deeply negatively impact our relationship with America
Speaker 3: and the US Alliance, and therefore we can't stop it.
Speaker 4: Indeed, the effects of suspending all licenses for the F
Speaker 4: thirty five program would undermine the global F thirty flight
Speaker 4: supply chain that is vital for the security of the UK.
Speaker 2: Are allies in this.
Speaker 1: And if we were to stop that, they couldn't be
Speaker 1: used by other countries in the other conflicts, including those
Speaker 1: in which we are involved.
Speaker 3: And the High Court found in the government's favor, there's
Speaker 3: going to be an appeal in Holland. The Dutch government
Speaker 3: was taken to court. There's been various decisions and appeals.
Speaker 3: The current situation is as far as I understand, at
Speaker 3: least officially, that the Dutch government does no longer send
Speaker 3: weapons parts to Israel, and I have no doubt that
Speaker 3: if this went to court in Australia, you would find
Speaker 3: the Australian government saying, and again are my words not theirs,
Speaker 3: we cannot stop sending these parts to America to Israel
Speaker 3: because that would negatively impact our relationship with Washington. I
Speaker 3: think people have to understand that there is a profound
Speaker 3: disconnect between the increasing angry rehtoric we hear from Penny Wog,
Speaker 3: Anthony Albernezi, Tony Burke about what Israel is doing and
Speaker 3: the reality of what our policy is that we continue
Speaker 3: to be a close alive of Israel, supporting them economically,
Speaker 3: financially and militarily, despite the growing anger that we hear
Speaker 3: in the voice of Australian government ministers.
Speaker 2: Coming up what sanctions could look like.
Speaker 4: Now you've written a withering letter to Australian Prime Minister
Speaker 4: Anthony ALBANIZI, why do you believe history will remember him
Speaker 4: as a weak politician?
Speaker 6: Well, look, I'm sure he has a reputable record as
Speaker 6: a public servant, but I think his record is forever
Speaker 6: tarnished by the weakness that he showed in the face
Speaker 6: of these commace terrorist monsters Anthony.
Speaker 2: Last week, tensions between Australia and Israel intensified, with Benjamin
Speaker 2: Netnya who repeatedly calling Anthony Albanesi week. This of course
Speaker 2: follows Albanesi saying that he'll recognize the Palestinian state. So
Speaker 2: how do you see the frame of diplomacy impacting the
Speaker 2: deals that you've laid out.
Speaker 3: Look, a diplomatic relationship, obviously between Australia and Israel is
Speaker 3: not in good shape. But I think it's worth saying
Speaker 3: that I think a lot of this is kabuki theater.
Speaker 3: For example, days after the Russian invasion of Ukrainian twenty
Speaker 3: twenty two, Australia was putting on sanctions on the Russian government,
Speaker 3: Russian businesses, Russian oligarchs. None of that similar behavior has
Speaker 3: been done against Israel, Israeli companies, Australian companies involved with Israel.
Speaker 3: None of that has happened.
Speaker 2: And tell me a bit about which countries have actually
Speaker 2: stopped exporting. Germany, for instance, is saying that there is
Speaker 2: a partial arms export band now.
Speaker 3: Right, That's what Germany is saying. That's what the British
Speaker 3: have said as well. It is it's nonsense. Certain things
Speaker 3: are not maybe being exported anymore. But Germany is the
Speaker 3: second biggest provider of weapons to Israel after the US,
Speaker 3: has been for years. It massively expanded after October seven.
Speaker 3: And that's a lot to do with what German officials
Speaker 3: see as their historical responsibility because of their complicity in
Speaker 3: the Holocaust in World War two, and therefore they see
Speaker 3: it as their moral duty to support Israel regardless of
Speaker 3: its actions. It's worth saying, though, that public opinion polls
Speaker 3: in Germany have found for months that the majority of
Speaker 3: Germans want Germany to stop selling weapons or weapons parts.
Speaker 3: But thus far, despite what the Germans are saying, there
Speaker 3: is still a weapons flow. For example, after that announcement,
Speaker 3: the Germans still signed a submarine deal with Israel. In
Speaker 3: other words, the flow of armaments has not stopped. Australia, Britain, France,
Speaker 3: all these countries in the last months that have come
Speaker 3: out clearly and said we're going to recognize a Palestinian
Speaker 3: state in September, they're still trading. They're still sending weapons parts.
Speaker 3: Some of them are sending actual weapons. The British government,
Speaker 3: for example, is training some Israeli soldiers on British soil.
Speaker 3: So none of these relationships have stopped or slowed down.
Speaker 3: What has been so frustrating is that the vast, vast
Speaker 3: bulk of the Australian mainstream media have not challenge the
Speaker 3: Australian government enough on these questions and simply have accepted
Speaker 3: when a government minister says, well, we don't sell weapons.
Speaker 2: To Israel the end, why do you think that is?
Speaker 3: I think there is still a fear in many parts
Speaker 3: of the mainstream press of being seen to be too
Speaker 3: critical of Israel because you are you fear being accused
Speaker 3: of anti Semitism by the Israel lobby or others. I
Speaker 3: think there's also, frankly, a deep strain of profound racism
Speaker 3: that exists in much of the Australian press. I'm not
Speaker 3: saying every journalist is racist, That's not what I mean.
Speaker 3: What I mean is that there is an unwillingness to
Speaker 3: somehow accept or believe, and this is I'm talking about
Speaker 3: management level here to accept or believe, for example, that
Speaker 3: the over two hundred Palestinian journalists who have been murdered
Speaker 3: by Israel are they really journalists? Really are they? Or
Speaker 3: are they maybe hamas terrorists? I guarantee if Russia had
Speaker 3: killed over two hundred gens less, that questioning would be different.
Speaker 3: I mean, ultimately, if Western journalists had been allowed into
Speaker 3: Gaza since October seven, I suspect the coverage would be
Speaker 3: quite different. And yet we have Palestinian journalists doing the
Speaker 3: unbelievably hard work of reporting, showing, filming what is going on.
Speaker 3: But sometime there's this belief and this is not unique
Speaker 3: to Australia. It's the same in the US, in the
Speaker 3: UK and Europe have not kind of quite believing them.
Speaker 2: Well, Anthony, thank you so much for speaking with me today.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me Ruby.
Speaker 2: Also in the news today, the loan survivor of Aaron
Speaker 2: Patterson's deadly beef, Wellington Lunch, has said he forgives the
Speaker 2: triple murderer. In an emotional victim impact statement at the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court yesterday in Wilkinson said he bears Patterson no
Speaker 2: ill will and encouraged her to spend her time in
Speaker 2: jail becoming a better person. Mister Wilkinson paid tribute to
Speaker 2: his late wife, Heather, who was killed by Patterson, and
Speaker 2: said while he could forgive her for what she did
Speaker 2: to him, he is compelled to seek justice for what
Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson did to Heather, as well as Don and
Speaker 2: Gayale Patterson. A date for Aaron Patterson's sentencing hearing has
Speaker 2: not yet been set, and universities are set to be
Speaker 2: bound by a legislated code of conduct to better respond
Speaker 2: to and prevent gender based violence. The legislation, to be
Speaker 2: introduced by Education Minister Jason Clare, follows multiple reports over
Speaker 2: many years showing alarming numbers of sexual assault on campus.
Speaker 2: The latest figures gathered in twenty twenty one by Universities
Speaker 2: Australia showed one in six students experienced sexual harassment, while
Speaker 2: one in twenty had been sexually assaulted. New figures are
Speaker 2: expected to be released next year. I'm Ruby Jones this
Speaker 2: seven am. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4: Alow on one