WEBVTT - Episode 3: The Lawyer's Advice 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.640 Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains coarse 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.840 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:42.200 you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian. Of course, 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.919 I know about your former marriage to John Winfield, all right, 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.280 I've actually read your police statement and I was wondering 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:50.880 if I could have a chat to you, an interview 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.800 with you about John and whether you've got anything that 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.279 might be helpful in this investigation of an alleged murder. 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:01.920 He was just if you walk down the street, he 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:06.720 accuse you of looking at other blokes and just all 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:07.560 that sort of stuff. 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:11.760 In the days after the release of episode two in 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:16.279 this podcast series, John Winfield's second wife agreed to speak 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.960 to me about her brief marriage to the man suspected 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:25.440 by police of having murdered his third wife, Bromwin. John 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:30.080 emphatically denies any involvement in foul play, and he has 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:35.400 never been charged over Bronwan's disappearance. In nineteen ninety three, 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:38.800 he told me in an email that Bromman's family has 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:43.280 a history of mental illness. Over the years, John has 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.360 told friends and others who ask about Broman's disappearance that 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:53.760 she was mentally unstable. Bromwan's family and friends completely reject 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:58.240 those claims. They say it's John's cover story to try 0:01:58.280 --> 0:01:59.520 to deflect from. 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:03.360 What they accuse him of having done to Bromwin. Now. 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:07.160 John's second wife has been closely following what is coming 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:10.960 out in this podcast series. When I spoke to her 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.400 for the first time, she said, I. 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:17.160 Just actually was babysitting my grandson today and I was 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:21.560 listening to the two episodes that you did. We had 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.720 a happy relationship, but from what I've heard today, it 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:27.440 sounded like they didn't have very happy relationship at all for. 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:28.120 A long time. 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:30.000 Why did you split up? Then? 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:35.000 Because he was possessive, Like if I was walked down 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:36.640 the street, he would say, why are you looking at 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.640 that guy? I felt like it couldn't look sideways like 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:41.560 what Bromin's obviously said too. 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.400 So it was just accusing you of looking at other men. 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:49.079 And I think that's what sort of greats on you 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:52.280 after a while, because you're so devoted. So who was 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:53.919 telling you that you're looking at other people? 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:54.320 And you're not. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.400 If anyone does that, they must be insecure. 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.359 And there'd been no issues in your relationship and shit 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.120 that could have caused him to believe that you would 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.560 be looking at other guds. 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:07.320 No, I loved him so much. 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:09.760 Have you stayed in touch with him? 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:12.760 No? No, definitely not. 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.800 I'm giving John's second wife a name which is not 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:21.440 her real name, but this is her voice. 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:22.880 Because I don't want my name anywhere in there. 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:27.720 What about I just say that when you were married 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.200 to John, you're a much younger woman, and I'm going 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:35.640 to call you D as in DA. Back then you 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.120 were d Winfield. And now you've remarried, and we won't 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:40.840 say what your new married name is. 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:42.080 Okay, yep. 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:45.760 I got three girls and they didn't even know I 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.800 was married until little while ago to John. 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:54.000 They were together as husband and wife for just eighteen months, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.240 and d wants to stress a few important things. John 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.880 did not harm her physically. He did not raise a 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.440 fist to strike her, nor put his hands around her 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.800 throat and squeeze, he told me, and he didn't threaten 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:11.160 her with violence. 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:13.920 He was never violent to me. I know, I wasn't 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:17.760 fearful of him. He was still possessive. But that's about all. 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.280 Because I didn't know anything about them until today when 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.640 I was listening to that those two. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:24.640 What are they called episodes? 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.200 Yeah, I do remember I tore all my photos up 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:29.320 with my old boyfriends. 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:32.880 When I looked back on it, like I tore all my. 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:37.400 Photos up that had other boyfriends in it kept me 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.080 and then I had to tew away the other ones 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.599 with the ex boyfriends in it. Obviously I didn't do 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:47.120 that on my own back, sharing the ex boyfriend outfit 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:48.279 and throwing them away. 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.640 And when you said you couldn't have done that off 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:53.200 your own bat, what do you mean. 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.360 I must have felt that I did it for him. 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.040 I mean, all of a sudden I realized I hadn't 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.320 gone out with the girls with girlfriends or anything. It's 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:05.560 not the news that we were together. 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.600 And then I suppose you just realize then you think, God, 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:10.080 don't think this is that healthiest. 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:11.760 But we were young. 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.440 De grew up in the shire around Cranala, south of 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:20.400 Sydney too, and although d didn't serve, she was often 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:21.120 at the beach. 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.200 John being a good surfer, we even had like a 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.800 little surf shop down at Kraa that we started with 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:28.760 John and I. 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:31.480 And then we saw that we moved up the coast 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:33.200 and you moved. 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:34.160 To Lennox Head with him. 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.280 Yes, we had a good time up there that we 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.520 actually built a house up at Sandstone Present, and then 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.280 when we separated, he went back up there and built. 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.360 A house a couple of hours up. Last night, I 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:50.960 tried to google it to see because I know what 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:51.520 it looks like. 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.560 Did you do some laboring there yourself, D? 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.719 Yeah, I used to help, used to help build some 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.000 hours of bricks in. I was there every day with you, 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:05.560 and then we moved the car ran up to the 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:06.320 block of land. 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:10.680 How do you feel about what you're hearing and reading now? 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:17.360 Just brings back memories and plus I feel sorry for 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.760 someone and their children not having each other. 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.160 Nobody's heard from her for thirty one years. 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:26.520 Yeah, that's so sad. 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:32.039 I know the family would be really'll be devastating for 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:34.799 them just not knowing where she is or what happened. 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:40.039 Yeah, you can't imagine it, can You? No guarantee that 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:41.960 for all those years. 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.840 I have D's brief written statement to police. She made 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:53.000 it in nineteen ninety eight during Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor's investigation. 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.640 And then you say John was quite bitter about the 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:58.000 settlement following our. 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:01.279 Separation because he had to sell the house. 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:04.640 What did he want to see happen? 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:05.680 Well? 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:09.120 No, we separated, so then I had to go for settlement. 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.400 And I've always been a saver and I had money. 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:14.480 And what I put into the house is only what 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.800 I took out. I wasn't taking more than what I 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:19.440 actually put in. 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:25.480 You say John didn't want to give me anything? No, well, 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:26.600 how would that have worked out? 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:28.000 No? 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:29.680 Well that's why I had to go. I went to 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:31.560 court to get a settlement. 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:34.720 I had to get a solicitor and go to court 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:36.360 to get my share of the property. 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:40.680 Yeah, we went to court and it was sort of 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:41.360 out in court. 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.440 When did you last see John at court? 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:46.600 When we got our settlement. 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:49.640 It took me like a little while to try and 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:51.600 get a divorce from him. I try and save him 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:55.760 the papers and he wouldn't take them. Eventually happened, and 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:56.560 then I moved on. 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:01.600 And do you one thing I can't quite grasp yet 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:06.080 is why does a marriage fail if really just one 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:09.120 partner seems a bit possessive? 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:10.360 Can't you work through that? 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:13.400 I don't know. I can't remember. 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:19.320 You've kept it quiet from your own daughters. Why is that. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:23.800 Just because it was in the past and it was 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.560 nothing to do with my life anymore. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:34.280 After the separation, John met Bromwin and John's future third wife, 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:39.280 Bronwin met John's estranged second wife de at a mutual 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.640 friend's barbecue in a coastal town. 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.440 I was down at a barbecue in Aladallah with my 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.200 girlfriend and it was at one of her friend's houses, 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:51.200 and Bronman was actually there, and I got introduced to 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.400 her that night, and she was asking me all questions 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.840 about why I just spreit up with my husband. I 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.880 just remember telling her that he was possessive and just 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.360 I felt like you didn't trust you, and that wears 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:05.040 on you after a while, and you know you're not 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.520 going to do anything to creap that trust. 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.040 I didn't know who she was and I'd never seen 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:11.600 her again. 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:19.440 When the police contacted you, were you surprised, Yeah, yes 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:23.360 I was. Had you heard about Broman having been missing 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:24.680 for several years by then? 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:26.360 Yes? I did. 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:30.520 Did you have any views about her disappearance before the 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:31.360 police spoke to you. 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:36.000 I thought, well, he won't be happy about losing another house. 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:39.439 I thought if something actually had. 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.960 Happened to her, that maybe he had pushed her maybe 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:47.600 had been killed accidentally, Like some people can push somewhere 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.319 and then they hit their head and they didn't mean 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:51.520 to do it, but they've done it. 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:55.040 That was the thought that went through my mind. 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.640 Most people in Lenox who know Ian Gluis call him 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:21.440 something else. 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:26.520 If you're scruffy, Yeah, supposedly. Yeah. 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.960 He hasn't had anything to do with John for three decades, 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.480 but in the early nineteen nineties, when Scruffy was managing 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.440 large concreting jobs. 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:36.880 He got to know John Well. 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:42.400 They worked together, clean work, clean for organized site and 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:46.240 a trade fman you could respect and recommend to other people. 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:48.080 It's a hard worker, yeah, hard worker. 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.920 They shared rides to and from job sites because Scruffy 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:55.840 would come by the house in Sandstone Crescent to pick 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.520 John up and drive him home again, and Scruffy's wife, 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:03.960 Maria had become friendly with Bromwin. When I visited at 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.960 his home in Lennox, he told me he's still concreting, 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:11.480 helping his daughter with her nearby house. As we sat 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:15.280 on his patio, a vast concrete structure with a gurgling 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.680 water feature off to the side, he remembered John Well, 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.880 although he hasn't seen him for years. 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:29.400 Good looking rooster served yet met him a playgroup. Nice family, 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:33.720 didn't drink much or at all, and I was on 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:38.040 good speaking terms of John. Did you become good mate? Well, 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.600 a small town and I was never in his pocket. 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:44.560 We did a few barbecues. 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:45.920 Down the lake together and the. 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:46.800 Kids got on well. 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:49.360 And then the more I got to know him and 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:51.840 started to see some parts of his character that I 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.920 thought was a bit strange, I sort of found there 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:59.000 was another sign to him. I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist, 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:04.160 but God picked up on the vibe very quickly, very quickly, 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:05.440 and he didn't. 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.200 He just thought I was scrapping the concrete. 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.480 I noticed a side where which I didn't think it 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.880 was too good, where he's very aimble about his house. 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.800 Maybe was disordered when someone's got to OCD ordered his 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:23.240 when he spoke at home. The kids weren't like a 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.400 normal family, you know what I mean. They were too, 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:32.200 very scared because he was very sort of controlling most 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:32.880 of the time. 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:35.040 You went to the house and saw that I was. 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:36.920 One of the few people that actually ever went to 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.079 the house. Not many people went inside the house. 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:43.160 I actually started. 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:47.559 Taking him to work, and then because of the nature 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:48.839 of the crew. 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:49.680 That I had working for me. 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:53.360 I actually went to the trouble of warning them one 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:58.160 day when John wasn't about, and I said, be very 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.960 careful about John steel Waters run deep. I said, he 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.600 actually hates people that spoke drugs, which they all preparably did. 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.600 I was about the only one that didn't. But I said, 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:10.719 he'll pretend to be. 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:13.040 One of you lot. 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.480 But I said, he's down on the whole head of 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:22.760 things that's parted drinking drugs. He's very prutish, very controlling 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.920 with his missus. Further down the track, when things were 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:31.640 starting to get a little bit rocky, they were still 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.360 living as a family unit, but they were not a 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.880 happy couple, and he said, this is my last house Ruby. 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:43.120 He said he had to sell the other two when 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.920 the relationships broke down. He had to settle the relationship. 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.880 And he said, I'm not doing that again. I'm not 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:55.840 selling this place and flog the family home to square 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:56.320 things up. 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.520 That's not happening. It's not on. 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.320 How confident are you that that's what he said. 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:10.240 I'm very confident that I'm not inventing the story. He 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.080 just said that he'd had to was forced to sell 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.120 the previous too, and there was no way in the 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:18.920 world that this one, no matter what went down, that 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:20.360 he was selling this one. 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:25.720 Gruffy recalled seeing Bromwyn after she had separated from John. 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.360 The Byron Street townhouse she had moved into with her 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.720 girls was just a few doors down from Scruffy and 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:37.200 Maria's family home. The children played together after school when 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.760 Bromwyn would stop by on the way back to the townhouse. 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.240 We lived directly partently opposite the school, and she had 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.400 to walk past our place to get down to the 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:47.000 service station. 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.040 She lived at the Ennis, So there. 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.960 In those days of town wasn't anywhere near gentrified it 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.080 is now, with all the professional buggers worming their way 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.120 in the place and millions of dollars to old houses. 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.080 She would drop in and have a coffee ordered with 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:03.480 Marie at the kitchen table on. 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:05.480 Her way home, and still let her hearten. 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.040 She said to Marie at the time, people have no 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:14.520 idea of the depth of his anger when he gets angry, 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.000 and I'd already sort of picked the vibe up warning 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:19.000 the blokes. 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:24.200 In Maria's statement to Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor in nineteen 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.080 ninety eight, she said she would see Bromwin on a 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.280 daily basis, and they became a lot closer after the 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:31.640 move to Byron Street. 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.240 These are Maria's words, it's not her voice. 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:38.480 While they were living in the flat, they all appeared 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:40.760 to be much happier, and Bronwin didn't appear to be 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.200 suffering from the stress like when she was living with John. 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:46.040 Bromnin would often tell me that John was wringing her 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.480 nightly from Sydney, and she thought that he was checking 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.720 up on her. She was extremely concerned by his phone calls, 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:53.320 and she was very worried that he was trying to 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.040 take the children from her. She got to the stage 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:57.560 where she would not go out at night because of 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.680 John's phone calls, and she would stay at home the calls, 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:02.840 fearing that if she didn't, it would give him more 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.440 ammunition to attempt to take the children from her. Bronwin 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:08.280 also told me that John had told her that he 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.480 would do anything he had to do to keep the house, 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:12.840 and that he'd already lost two houses to other women 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:14.640 and was not about to lose this one. 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:20.440 One of Bromwinn's townhouse neighbors was Alan Fisher, and like Bromwin, 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:24.520 he rented his place from the owner and landlady, Shirley Taylor. 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.240 When he gave a statement to the police detective Glenn 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:32.520 Taylor in nineteen ninety eight, Alan remembered Bromwin's care for 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:36.680 her children. These are his words from his sigence statement. 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:37.880 It's not his voice. 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.040 Bromwin appeared to be a very devoted mother. I did 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.160 notice that she kept a very watchful eye on her 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.960 two children. Bromwin was not the type to leave her 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.440 kids for even five minutes. I remember on one occasion, 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:52.760 which was a number of weeks after Bromin had moved 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:55.280 into the flat, when Bromwin came to the back of 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.239 my unit. At that time, I was in the backyard. 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:00.640 I remember this was on the third day before she 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.400 went missing. I recall Bromin saying to me, I hope 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.640 you didn't hear all that commotion. I said, I didn't 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.879 hear anything. Broman said, I've just had a hell of 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.639 an argument over the phone with my husband. He's coming 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.440 down tomorrow and I'm terrified about what he might do. 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:19.439 I said something along the lines of, oh, is it 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.200 that bad. I then said to her that my son 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.080 and I were going to put some security doors on 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.080 all the units. Broumman told me that putting the security 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.439 doors up would probably help. Bromin seemed to be very 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.680 upset at the time and looked worried. It was later 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.040 that same afternoon my son came over and we put 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.119 security doors on all of the units. I remember Bromin 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:40.720 thanking me for the trouble, and I gave her a 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:41.960 key for the security door. 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.640 The following day, Alan returned to Biown Street about three 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.439 pm and he saw a vehicle with a trailer in 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.760 the driveway. He saw Bromwin and he asked her what 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:53.360 was happening. 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.080 Bromwin then told me that she was moving out. I said, 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.320 how did you go with your husband? Broman said it 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.560 was better than I thought. He's agreed to let us 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:03.880 move back into the family home. 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.120 Bromwan and Allan spoke for a short time about how 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.000 she would be saving her money rather than spending it 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.800 on rent, and he offered to help her lift heavy 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:15.120 items onto the trailer. 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:18.280 Bromwin said that she was only taking what she could 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:20.040 with the ute and the trailight and was going to 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:21.440 come back and get the rest of it at a 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:22.159 later time. 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:28.040 Another witness, Desiree Flood lived in the adjoining townhouse next 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:32.280 to Bromwin's. She recalled talking to Bromman about four or 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.199 five o'clock in the afternoon, and she believed that it 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.840 was on the fateful day of Sunday, May sixteenth, just 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:43.560 hours before the last known sighting of Bromwin. Desiree was 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.680 tracked down by Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor five years later 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.680 in nineteen ninety eight, and this is what she put 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:55.760 in her signed statement, again her words, but not her voice. 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.000 The reason I believe it was on the Sunday was 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.240 because we usually spent Sundays at home. On the Saturdays, 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:03.520 I used to visit my parents and stayed for dinner. 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:05.320 So I do not believe it was on the Saturday. 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:07.760 I remember I was at home and my husband and 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.000 I were doing some gardening and I saw Bronwyn come 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:11.680 out of her unit with a cup of coffee in 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.080 her hand. Bronwyn came out to where we were standing. 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:17.840 I started talking to Bronwyn, and I remember her saying 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.480 something like I'm moving back to my home and my 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.919 husband is moving to Sydney. Bronwyn seemed to be happy 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:27.800 with this arrangement. I started talking to Bronwyn about general things. 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.960 At one point, she said, tonight, my husband is coming down, 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.800 and if you hear a commotion, just ignore it. I 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.080 took this to mean that Bronwyn's husband was coming to 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.520 the flat. This was the first time that I had 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:41.919 ever spoken to Bronwyn on a personal basis. I recalled 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.080 that Bronwyn seemed to be a bit apprehensive about the 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.200 prospect of her husband coming over. It was within days 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:49.359 of this conversation with Bronwyn that I found out she 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:53.480 had gone missing. The landlady Shirley Taylor and myself were 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.520 quite surprised that she had left so much of her 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.480 property in the flat. The only other information I have 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:00.480 is that I remember that with In a couple of 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.120 weeks after Bronwyn moved into the flat, I spoke to her. 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.719 Bronman's car, which was a white Falcon Sedan, was blocking 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:08.600 the driveway and I had to ask her to move it. 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:11.840 I saw that Bronwyin had what appeared to be blackberuising 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.760 around her left eye. Bronwin had her sunglasses on and 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.320 looked like she had make up around her eye. 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.680 Alan Fisher and Desiree Flood both recall being told by 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:26.240 Bromwin that her husband was coming back. It seems likely 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.000 that Bromwin and John talked about it on the phone 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.080 before he flew from Sydney. 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:32.639 To Ballina on Sunday afternoon. 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.119 If they had an initial plan to meet at the 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:40.040 townhouse on Byron Street, it probably changed to a meeting 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:44.240 instead at the family home on Sandstone Crescent. In the 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:46.880 next episode, we're going to deal with some of John's 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:50.520 trip back to Lennox and to the house that Sunday evening. 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:53.760 From my observations of her, she was very close to 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.520 the children and protective of them. I even noticed that 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:58.640 she wouldn't allow the children to play outside the fence 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:00.960 of the unit unless she was there with them. I 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.520 find it extraordinary that Bronwin would leave her kids and 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:05.560 have no further contact with them. 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:09.240 She had a male friend called Gary Jackson, and it 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:12.880 seems Bromman was hopeful they might be suited to each other. 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:17.320 He's known as Jacko, and he's been in indirect contact 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:21.000 for this podcast because he remains close to Robin Shanahan. 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:25.080 In nineteen ninety eight, he was interviewed by the detective 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.640 Sergeant Glen Taylor, who took a written statement from Jacko. 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.879 Gary Jackson explained that he had met John Winfield in 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.919 nineteen ninety two when John was building a house for 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:40.959 Robin Shanahan and her then husband Peter. These are his 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.920 words from that statement. It's not Jacko's voice. 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.720