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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains coarse

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I know about your former marriage to John Winfield, all right,

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Speaker 1: I've actually read your police statement and I was wondering

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Speaker 1: if I could have a chat to you, an interview

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Speaker 1: with you about John and whether you've got anything that

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Speaker 1: might be helpful in this investigation of an alleged murder.

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Speaker 2: He was just if you walk down the street, he

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Speaker 2: accuse you of looking at other blokes and just all

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Speaker 2: that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 1: In the days after the release of episode two in

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Speaker 1: this podcast series, John Winfield's second wife agreed to speak

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Speaker 1: to me about her brief marriage to the man suspected

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Speaker 1: by police of having murdered his third wife, Bromwin. John

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Speaker 1: emphatically denies any involvement in foul play, and he has

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Speaker 1: never been charged over Bronwan's disappearance. In nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 1: he told me in an email that Bromman's family has

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Speaker 1: a history of mental illness. Over the years, John has

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Speaker 1: told friends and others who ask about Broman's disappearance that

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Speaker 1: she was mentally unstable. Bromwan's family and friends completely reject

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Speaker 1: those claims. They say it's John's cover story to try

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Speaker 1: to deflect from.

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Speaker 3: What they accuse him of having done to Bromwin. Now.

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Speaker 1: John's second wife has been closely following what is coming

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Speaker 1: out in this podcast series. When I spoke to her

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Speaker 1: for the first time, she said, I.

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Speaker 2: Just actually was babysitting my grandson today and I was

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Speaker 2: listening to the two episodes that you did. We had

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Speaker 2: a happy relationship, but from what I've heard today, it

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Speaker 2: sounded like they didn't have very happy relationship at all for.

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Speaker 4: A long time.

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Speaker 3: Why did you split up? Then?

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Speaker 2: Because he was possessive, Like if I was walked down

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Speaker 2: the street, he would say, why are you looking at

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Speaker 2: that guy? I felt like it couldn't look sideways like

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Speaker 2: what Bromin's obviously said too.

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Speaker 4: So it was just accusing you of looking at other men.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's what sort of greats on you

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Speaker 2: after a while, because you're so devoted. So who was

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Speaker 2: telling you that you're looking at other people?

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Speaker 5: And you're not.

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Speaker 4: If anyone does that, they must be insecure.

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Speaker 1: And there'd been no issues in your relationship and shit

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Speaker 1: that could have caused him to believe that you would

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Speaker 1: be looking at other guds.

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Speaker 4: No, I loved him so much.

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Speaker 3: Have you stayed in touch with him?

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Speaker 4: No? No, definitely not.

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Speaker 1: I'm giving John's second wife a name which is not

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Speaker 1: her real name, but this is her voice.

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Speaker 4: Because I don't want my name anywhere in there.

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Speaker 1: What about I just say that when you were married

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Speaker 1: to John, you're a much younger woman, and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to call you D as in DA. Back then you

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Speaker 1: were d Winfield. And now you've remarried, and we won't

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Speaker 1: say what your new married name is.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yep.

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Speaker 2: I got three girls and they didn't even know I

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Speaker 2: was married until little while ago to John.

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Speaker 1: They were together as husband and wife for just eighteen months,

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Speaker 1: and d wants to stress a few important things. John

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Speaker 1: did not harm her physically. He did not raise a

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Speaker 1: fist to strike her, nor put his hands around her

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Speaker 1: throat and squeeze, he told me, and he didn't threaten

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Speaker 1: her with violence.

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Speaker 4: He was never violent to me. I know, I wasn't

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Speaker 4: fearful of him. He was still possessive. But that's about all.

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Speaker 2: Because I didn't know anything about them until today when

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Speaker 2: I was listening to that those two.

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Speaker 3: What are they called episodes?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do remember I tore all my photos up

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Speaker 2: with my old boyfriends.

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Speaker 4: When I looked back on it, like I tore all my.

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Speaker 2: Photos up that had other boyfriends in it kept me

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Speaker 2: and then I had to tew away the other ones

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Speaker 2: with the ex boyfriends in it. Obviously I didn't do

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Speaker 2: that on my own back, sharing the ex boyfriend outfit

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Speaker 2: and throwing them away.

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Speaker 1: And when you said you couldn't have done that off

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Speaker 1: your own bat, what do you mean.

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Speaker 4: I must have felt that I did it for him.

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Speaker 4: I mean, all of a sudden I realized I hadn't

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Speaker 4: gone out with the girls with girlfriends or anything. It's

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Speaker 4: not the news that we were together.

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Speaker 2: And then I suppose you just realize then you think, God,

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Speaker 2: don't think this is that healthiest.

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Speaker 4: But we were young.

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Speaker 1: De grew up in the shire around Cranala, south of

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Speaker 1: Sydney too, and although d didn't serve, she was often

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Speaker 1: at the beach.

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Speaker 2: John being a good surfer, we even had like a

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Speaker 2: little surf shop down at Kraa that we started with

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Speaker 2: John and I.

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Speaker 4: And then we saw that we moved up the coast

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Speaker 4: and you moved.

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Speaker 3: To Lennox Head with him.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we had a good time up there that we

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Speaker 2: actually built a house up at Sandstone Present, and then

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Speaker 2: when we separated, he went back up there and built.

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Speaker 4: A house a couple of hours up. Last night, I

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Speaker 4: tried to google it to see because I know what

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Speaker 4: it looks like.

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Speaker 3: Did you do some laboring there yourself, D?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I used to help, used to help build some

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Speaker 2: hours of bricks in. I was there every day with you,

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Speaker 2: and then we moved the car ran up to the

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Speaker 2: block of land.

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Speaker 1: How do you feel about what you're hearing and reading now?

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Speaker 2: Just brings back memories and plus I feel sorry for

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Speaker 2: someone and their children not having each other.

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Speaker 3: Nobody's heard from her for thirty one years.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's so sad.

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Speaker 2: I know the family would be really'll be devastating for

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Speaker 2: them just not knowing where she is or what happened.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you can't imagine it, can You? No guarantee that

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Speaker 4: for all those years.

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Speaker 1: I have D's brief written statement to police. She made

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Speaker 1: it in nineteen ninety eight during Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor's investigation.

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Speaker 1: And then you say John was quite bitter about the

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Speaker 1: settlement following our.

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Speaker 5: Separation because he had to sell the house.

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Speaker 3: What did he want to see happen?

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Speaker 5: Well?

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Speaker 2: No, we separated, so then I had to go for settlement.

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Speaker 2: And I've always been a saver and I had money.

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Speaker 2: And what I put into the house is only what

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Speaker 2: I took out. I wasn't taking more than what I

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Speaker 2: actually put in.

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Speaker 1: You say John didn't want to give me anything? No, well,

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Speaker 1: how would that have worked out?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 2: Well that's why I had to go. I went to

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Speaker 2: court to get a settlement.

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Speaker 1: I had to get a solicitor and go to court

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Speaker 1: to get my share of the property.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we went to court and it was sort of

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Speaker 4: out in court.

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Speaker 3: When did you last see John at court?

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Speaker 4: When we got our settlement.

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Speaker 2: It took me like a little while to try and

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Speaker 2: get a divorce from him. I try and save him

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Speaker 2: the papers and he wouldn't take them. Eventually happened, and

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Speaker 2: then I moved on.

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Speaker 1: And do you one thing I can't quite grasp yet

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Speaker 1: is why does a marriage fail if really just one

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Speaker 1: partner seems a bit possessive?

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Speaker 3: Can't you work through that?

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I can't remember.

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Speaker 3: You've kept it quiet from your own daughters. Why is that.

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Speaker 2: Just because it was in the past and it was

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with my life anymore.

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Speaker 1: After the separation, John met Bromwin and John's future third wife,

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Speaker 1: Bronwin met John's estranged second wife de at a mutual

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Speaker 1: friend's barbecue in a coastal town.

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Speaker 2: I was down at a barbecue in Aladallah with my

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Speaker 2: girlfriend and it was at one of her friend's houses,

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Speaker 2: and Bronman was actually there, and I got introduced to

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Speaker 2: her that night, and she was asking me all questions

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Speaker 2: about why I just spreit up with my husband. I

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Speaker 2: just remember telling her that he was possessive and just

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Speaker 2: I felt like you didn't trust you, and that wears

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Speaker 2: on you after a while, and you know you're not

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Speaker 2: going to do anything to creap that trust.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know who she was and I'd never seen

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Speaker 4: her again.

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Speaker 1: When the police contacted you, were you surprised, Yeah, yes

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Speaker 1: I was. Had you heard about Broman having been missing

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Speaker 1: for several years by then?

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Speaker 5: Yes? I did.

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Speaker 1: Did you have any views about her disappearance before the

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Speaker 1: police spoke to you.

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Speaker 4: I thought, well, he won't be happy about losing another house.

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Speaker 4: I thought if something actually had.

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Speaker 2: Happened to her, that maybe he had pushed her maybe

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Speaker 2: had been killed accidentally, Like some people can push somewhere

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Speaker 2: and then they hit their head and they didn't mean

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Speaker 2: to do it, but they've done it.

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Speaker 4: That was the thought that went through my mind.

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Speaker 1: Most people in Lenox who know Ian Gluis call him

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Speaker 1: something else.

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Speaker 3: If you're scruffy, Yeah, supposedly. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He hasn't had anything to do with John for three decades,

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Speaker 1: but in the early nineteen nineties, when Scruffy was managing

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Speaker 1: large concreting jobs.

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Speaker 3: He got to know John Well.

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Speaker 6: They worked together, clean work, clean for organized site and

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Speaker 6: a trade fman you could respect and recommend to other people.

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Speaker 3: It's a hard worker, yeah, hard worker.

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Speaker 1: They shared rides to and from job sites because Scruffy

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Speaker 1: would come by the house in Sandstone Crescent to pick

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Speaker 1: John up and drive him home again, and Scruffy's wife,

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Speaker 1: Maria had become friendly with Bromwin. When I visited at

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Speaker 1: his home in Lennox, he told me he's still concreting,

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Speaker 1: helping his daughter with her nearby house. As we sat

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Speaker 1: on his patio, a vast concrete structure with a gurgling

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Speaker 1: water feature off to the side, he remembered John Well,

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Speaker 1: although he hasn't seen him for years.

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Speaker 6: Good looking rooster served yet met him a playgroup. Nice family,

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Speaker 6: didn't drink much or at all, and I was on

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Speaker 6: good speaking terms of John. Did you become good mate? Well,

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Speaker 6: a small town and I was never in his pocket.

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Speaker 3: We did a few barbecues.

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Speaker 6: Down the lake together and the.

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Speaker 3: Kids got on well.

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Speaker 6: And then the more I got to know him and

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Speaker 6: started to see some parts of his character that I

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Speaker 6: thought was a bit strange, I sort of found there

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Speaker 6: was another sign to him. I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist,

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Speaker 6: but God picked up on the vibe very quickly, very quickly,

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Speaker 6: and he didn't.

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Speaker 3: He just thought I was scrapping the concrete.

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Speaker 6: I noticed a side where which I didn't think it

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Speaker 6: was too good, where he's very aimble about his house.

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Speaker 6: Maybe was disordered when someone's got to OCD ordered his

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Speaker 6: when he spoke at home. The kids weren't like a

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Speaker 6: normal family, you know what I mean. They were too,

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Speaker 6: very scared because he was very sort of controlling most

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Speaker 6: of the time.

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Speaker 3: You went to the house and saw that I was.

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Speaker 6: One of the few people that actually ever went to

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Speaker 6: the house. Not many people went inside the house.

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Speaker 3: I actually started.

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Speaker 6: Taking him to work, and then because of the nature

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Speaker 6: of the crew.

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Speaker 3: That I had working for me.

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Speaker 6: I actually went to the trouble of warning them one

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Speaker 6: day when John wasn't about, and I said, be very

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Speaker 6: careful about John steel Waters run deep. I said, he

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Speaker 6: actually hates people that spoke drugs, which they all preparably did.

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Speaker 6: I was about the only one that didn't. But I said,

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Speaker 6: he'll pretend to be.

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Speaker 3: One of you lot.

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Speaker 6: But I said, he's down on the whole head of

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Speaker 6: things that's parted drinking drugs. He's very prutish, very controlling

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Speaker 6: with his missus. Further down the track, when things were

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Speaker 6: starting to get a little bit rocky, they were still

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Speaker 6: living as a family unit, but they were not a

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Speaker 6: happy couple, and he said, this is my last house Ruby.

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Speaker 6: He said he had to sell the other two when

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Speaker 6: the relationships broke down. He had to settle the relationship.

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Speaker 6: And he said, I'm not doing that again. I'm not

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Speaker 6: selling this place and flog the family home to square

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Speaker 6: things up.

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Speaker 3: That's not happening. It's not on.

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Speaker 1: How confident are you that that's what he said.

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Speaker 6: I'm very confident that I'm not inventing the story. He

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Speaker 6: just said that he'd had to was forced to sell

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Speaker 6: the previous too, and there was no way in the

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Speaker 6: world that this one, no matter what went down, that

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Speaker 6: he was selling this one.

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Speaker 1: Gruffy recalled seeing Bromwyn after she had separated from John.

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Speaker 1: The Byron Street townhouse she had moved into with her

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Speaker 1: girls was just a few doors down from Scruffy and

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Speaker 1: Maria's family home. The children played together after school when

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Speaker 1: Bromwyn would stop by on the way back to the townhouse.

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Speaker 6: We lived directly partently opposite the school, and she had

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Speaker 6: to walk past our place to get down to the

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Speaker 6: service station.

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Speaker 3: She lived at the Ennis, So there.

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Speaker 6: In those days of town wasn't anywhere near gentrified it

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Speaker 6: is now, with all the professional buggers worming their way

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Speaker 6: in the place and millions of dollars to old houses.

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Speaker 6: She would drop in and have a coffee ordered with

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Speaker 6: Marie at the kitchen table on.

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Speaker 3: Her way home, and still let her hearten.

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Speaker 6: She said to Marie at the time, people have no

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Speaker 6: idea of the depth of his anger when he gets angry,

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Speaker 6: and I'd already sort of picked the vibe up warning

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Speaker 6: the blokes.

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Speaker 1: In Maria's statement to Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight, she said she would see Bromwin on a

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Speaker 1: daily basis, and they became a lot closer after the

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Speaker 1: move to Byron Street.

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Speaker 3: These are Maria's words, it's not her voice.

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Speaker 7: While they were living in the flat, they all appeared

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Speaker 7: to be much happier, and Bronwin didn't appear to be

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Speaker 7: suffering from the stress like when she was living with John.

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Speaker 7: Bromnin would often tell me that John was wringing her

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Speaker 7: nightly from Sydney, and she thought that he was checking

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Speaker 7: up on her. She was extremely concerned by his phone calls,

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Speaker 7: and she was very worried that he was trying to

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Speaker 7: take the children from her. She got to the stage

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Speaker 7: where she would not go out at night because of

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Speaker 7: John's phone calls, and she would stay at home the calls,

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Speaker 7: fearing that if she didn't, it would give him more

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00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,440
Speaker 7: ammunition to attempt to take the children from her. Bronwin

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Speaker 7: also told me that John had told her that he

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Speaker 7: would do anything he had to do to keep the house,

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Speaker 7: and that he'd already lost two houses to other women

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Speaker 7: and was not about to lose this one.

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Speaker 1: One of Bromwinn's townhouse neighbors was Alan Fisher, and like Bromwin,

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Speaker 1: he rented his place from the owner and landlady, Shirley Taylor.

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Speaker 1: When he gave a statement to the police detective Glenn

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00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 1: Taylor in nineteen ninety eight, Alan remembered Bromwin's care for

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Speaker 1: her children. These are his words from his sigence statement.

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Speaker 1: It's not his voice.

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Speaker 8: Bromwin appeared to be a very devoted mother. I did

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00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,160
Speaker 8: notice that she kept a very watchful eye on her

300
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,960
Speaker 8: two children. Bromwin was not the type to leave her

301
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,440
Speaker 8: kids for even five minutes. I remember on one occasion,

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00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,760
Speaker 8: which was a number of weeks after Bromin had moved

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00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,280
Speaker 8: into the flat, when Bromwin came to the back of

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00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,239
Speaker 8: my unit. At that time, I was in the backyard.

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00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 8: I remember this was on the third day before she

306
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,400
Speaker 8: went missing. I recall Bromin saying to me, I hope

307
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,640
Speaker 8: you didn't hear all that commotion. I said, I didn't

308
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,879
Speaker 8: hear anything. Broman said, I've just had a hell of

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00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,639
Speaker 8: an argument over the phone with my husband. He's coming

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Speaker 8: down tomorrow and I'm terrified about what he might do.

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Speaker 8: I said something along the lines of, oh, is it

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Speaker 8: that bad. I then said to her that my son

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Speaker 8: and I were going to put some security doors on

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00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,080
Speaker 8: all the units. Broumman told me that putting the security

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00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,439
Speaker 8: doors up would probably help. Bromin seemed to be very

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00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,680
Speaker 8: upset at the time and looked worried. It was later

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00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 8: that same afternoon my son came over and we put

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Speaker 8: security doors on all of the units. I remember Bromin

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Speaker 8: thanking me for the trouble, and I gave her a

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Speaker 8: key for the security door.

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Speaker 1: The following day, Alan returned to Biown Street about three

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Speaker 1: pm and he saw a vehicle with a trailer in

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Speaker 1: the driveway. He saw Bromwin and he asked her what

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00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:53,360
Speaker 1: was happening.

325
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Speaker 8: Bromwin then told me that she was moving out. I said,

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Speaker 8: how did you go with your husband? Broman said it

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00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,560
Speaker 8: was better than I thought. He's agreed to let us

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Speaker 8: move back into the family home.

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Speaker 1: Bromwan and Allan spoke for a short time about how

330
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Speaker 1: she would be saving her money rather than spending it

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Speaker 1: on rent, and he offered to help her lift heavy

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Speaker 1: items onto the trailer.

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Speaker 8: Bromwin said that she was only taking what she could

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00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 8: with the ute and the trailight and was going to

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00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:21,440
Speaker 8: come back and get the rest of it at a

336
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:22,159
Speaker 8: later time.

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00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 1: Another witness, Desiree Flood lived in the adjoining townhouse next

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00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,280
Speaker 1: to Bromwin's. She recalled talking to Bromman about four or

339
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,199
Speaker 1: five o'clock in the afternoon, and she believed that it

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00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,840
Speaker 1: was on the fateful day of Sunday, May sixteenth, just

341
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 1: hours before the last known sighting of Bromwin. Desiree was

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00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,680
Speaker 1: tracked down by Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor five years later

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00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,680
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight, and this is what she put

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00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,760
Speaker 1: in her signed statement, again her words, but not her voice.

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Speaker 9: The reason I believe it was on the Sunday was

346
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,240
Speaker 9: because we usually spent Sundays at home. On the Saturdays,

347
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,520
Speaker 9: I used to visit my parents and stayed for dinner.

348
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Speaker 9: So I do not believe it was on the Saturday.

349
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:07,760
Speaker 9: I remember I was at home and my husband and

350
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 9: I were doing some gardening and I saw Bronwyn come

351
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:11,680
Speaker 9: out of her unit with a cup of coffee in

352
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,080
Speaker 9: her hand. Bronwyn came out to where we were standing.

353
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Speaker 9: I started talking to Bronwyn, and I remember her saying

354
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 9: something like I'm moving back to my home and my

355
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,919
Speaker 9: husband is moving to Sydney. Bronwyn seemed to be happy

356
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 9: with this arrangement. I started talking to Bronwyn about general things.

357
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,960
Speaker 9: At one point, she said, tonight, my husband is coming down,

358
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 9: and if you hear a commotion, just ignore it. I

359
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 9: took this to mean that Bronwyn's husband was coming to

360
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,520
Speaker 9: the flat. This was the first time that I had

361
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,919
Speaker 9: ever spoken to Bronwyn on a personal basis. I recalled

362
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,080
Speaker 9: that Bronwyn seemed to be a bit apprehensive about the

363
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,200
Speaker 9: prospect of her husband coming over. It was within days

364
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,359
Speaker 9: of this conversation with Bronwyn that I found out she

365
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,480
Speaker 9: had gone missing. The landlady Shirley Taylor and myself were

366
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 9: quite surprised that she had left so much of her

367
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,480
Speaker 9: property in the flat. The only other information I have

368
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,480
Speaker 9: is that I remember that with In a couple of

369
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,120
Speaker 9: weeks after Bronwyn moved into the flat, I spoke to her.

370
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,719
Speaker 9: Bronman's car, which was a white Falcon Sedan, was blocking

371
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 9: the driveway and I had to ask her to move it.

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Speaker 9: I saw that Bronwyin had what appeared to be blackberuising

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Speaker 9: around her left eye. Bronwin had her sunglasses on and

374
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 9: looked like she had make up around her eye.

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Speaker 1: Alan Fisher and Desiree Flood both recall being told by

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00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 1: Bromwin that her husband was coming back. It seems likely

377
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 1: that Bromwin and John talked about it on the phone

378
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 1: before he flew from Sydney.

379
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 3: To Ballina on Sunday afternoon.

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Speaker 1: If they had an initial plan to meet at the

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00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 1: townhouse on Byron Street, it probably changed to a meeting

382
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Speaker 1: instead at the family home on Sandstone Crescent. In the

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Speaker 1: next episode, we're going to deal with some of John's

384
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Speaker 1: trip back to Lennox and to the house that Sunday evening.

385
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Speaker 9: From my observations of her, she was very close to

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00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 9: the children and protective of them. I even noticed that

387
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 9: she wouldn't allow the children to play outside the fence

388
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 9: of the unit unless she was there with them. I

389
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 9: find it extraordinary that Bronwin would leave her kids and

390
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 9: have no further contact with them.

391
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Speaker 1: She had a male friend called Gary Jackson, and it

392
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,880
Speaker 1: seems Bromman was hopeful they might be suited to each other.

393
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 1: He's known as Jacko, and he's been in indirect contact

394
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 1: for this podcast because he remains close to Robin Shanahan.

395
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Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety eight, he was interviewed by the detective

396
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,640
Speaker 1: Sergeant Glen Taylor, who took a written statement from Jacko.

397
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,879
Speaker 1: Gary Jackson explained that he had met John Winfield in

398
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,919
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two when John was building a house for

399
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:40,959
Speaker 1: Robin Shanahan and her then husband Peter. These are his

400
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,920
Speaker 1: words from that statement. It's not Jacko's voice.

401
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 10: I decided to help, so I labored for John and

402
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 10: was his brickies laborer.

403
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 1: Gary went to New Zealand for nine months after completing

404
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: the house. He returned in March nineteen ninety three, the

405
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 1: same month Broman separated from John.

406
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 10: Within a day or two of arriving in Lennox Head,

407
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 10: I went to Eden's Takeaway and I saw Bronwin Winfield there.

408
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 10: Bronwin asked me to meet her after work, and she

409
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 10: asked me to meet her at the surf club.

410
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 3: Broman arrived in her car the white Ford Falcon.

411
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 10: She told me that she had seen a tarot reader

412
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 10: and he told her that some tall guy who was

413
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 10: a Sagittarius would return to her life. She had obviously

414
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 10: formed the opinion that this person was me. She told

415
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 10: me that she had left John not long before and

416
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 10: had taken a flat on her own. We sat on

417
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 10: the beach and spoke for about half an hour, and

418
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 10: then I went home.

419
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Speaker 1: Over the next couple of days, he recalled Broman telephoned

420
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,439
Speaker 1: Robin and Peter's house several times because that's where Jacko

421
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: was staying. He went to her flat and he saw

422
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: Broman and her two girls. A couple of days after

423
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 1: they spoke on the sand at the beach. He said

424
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: that while he was there, Bromwyn told.

425
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Speaker 10: Him John had been constantly harassing her on the phone

426
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 10: and wanted her to go back to the house. She

427
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 10: said that he would ring her up and when she

428
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 10: terminated the call, he wouldn't hang his phone up, and

429
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 10: this would leave the line open. She told me he

430
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 10: did this on purpose, so that she could not.

431
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 3: Use her phone.

432
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Speaker 10: She also told me that he would often sit out

433
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 10: the front of her house in his car and sit

434
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 10: there for lengthy periods, watching the flat. She also said

435
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 10: that whenever she walked down the street to go to

436
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 10: the shops, he would follow her and was generally stalking her.

437
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 3: I only saw her on.

438
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 10: About three or four occasions, and during those times she

439
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 10: told me that she was concerned and that John was

440
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 10: continually harassing her on the phone, sitting near her flat

441
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 10: and following her.

442
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 1: There is, in my view, a strong Ring of Truth

443
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 1: and what Bromwin is said to have told Gary Jackson

444
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: did appear to be keenly interested in Jacko. Other friends

445
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,479
Speaker 1: have confirmed that she liked him. Telling him about an

446
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: apparently obsessive husband was probably not going to help her

447
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: prospects in forming any relationship with Jacko, yet she told

448
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: him anyway. Her need to disclose John's behavior was important.

449
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: Perhaps she wanted a partner and a protector, but Jacko

450
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: understood that things might get messy.

451
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 10: I would only visit Bromin during daylight hours because I

452
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 10: didn't want to be implicated in their problems, and I

453
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 10: didn't want to be used as a pawn in any

454
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 10: divorce proceedings.

455
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 1: He went back to New Zealand in late April, and

456
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 1: that's a couple of weeks before Bromwin vanished. He didn't

457
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: see or hear from her again. Here's Broman's brother, Andy

458
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: Reid and his wife Michelle, recounting conversations John.

459
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 11: Was in contact with us, because I remember he rang

460
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 11: one time and had this cry conversation with me, which

461
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 11: turned out to be the fellow that ended up going

462
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 11: across to New Zealand.

463
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 12: And Jacko was a friend of the people that a'm

464
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,239
Speaker 12: the takeaway shop that Broman used to work there and

465
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 12: he gave her a left home.

466
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 3: So because he'd given her a left.

467
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 12: Home on a motorbike, all of a sudden, John's ringing me, Oh,

468
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 12: she's galla there and around ten and she's in another

469
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 12: relationship with some blake. She's on the back of a motorbike.

470
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 3: He was very flustered about that.

471
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 12: He didn't handle that well because Brom would a ring

472
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 12: me and say, oh, John's up parked up the road

473
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 12: Byron Street after the spotting, after John had rung and

474
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 12: obviously there must have been some confrontation because Brin had

475
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 12: rung me to say I was accusing me of have

476
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 12: a relationship and.

477
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 13: Didn't she also say something about him turning up at

478
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 13: the Byron Street unit and banging on the door.

479
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: I hope to talk to Gary Jackson directly for this podcast.

480
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: Here's Robin Shanahan again.

481
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 14: We catch up for lunch once a month or so

482
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 14: because he's the father of my fourth child.

483
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 4: Did you know that?

484
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:02,239
Speaker 15: Oh?

485
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 3: No, I didn't know that.

486
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 14: Jack has always been a very very very close friend

487
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 14: and he's godfather to my three daughters.

488
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 4: When Peter left, JACKO sort.

489
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 14: Of stepped in to support me and the girls when

490
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 14: my marriage Pasha. A couple of years later, I had Abby,

491
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 14: but Jack and we only last a couple of years,

492
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 14: but we still talk to each other sorow.

493
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: I've read his evidence as well, and I know he

494
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: was just a friend to Broman and giving her a

495
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: bit of support.

496
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 3: That's the impression I got. Anyway, he was he.

497
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 14: Still is a nice man, and I think Roman did

498
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 14: find that with Jacko.

499
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 3: He is Megan Reid Roman's cousin.

500
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 5: I'm your bet, Jacko.

501
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 16: He was just a mate.

502
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,959
Speaker 17: After she'd left John. He used to come around and

503
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 17: just chat to her. He liked as a friend only.

504
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 17: And you hear John talking about how she was seen

505
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 17: riding around Lennox said, in the back of a motorbike,

506
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 17: and he claimed it was probably him that she went

507
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 17: off with.

508
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: Well, no, Gary Jackson was quickly and sensibly ruled out

509
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: by police as a person of interest in Broman's disappearance.

510
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: Kelly O'Brien is well known in the Lenox community as

511
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 1: a surfer and a leader of healthy pursuits for children.

512
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: She worked at Eden's Takeaway. She spoke to the detective

513
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight, Kelly remembered Bromman as

514
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: bright and friendly. Kelly suggested in her signed statement back

515
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: then that Bromwin had emotional problems concerning her marriage. Kelly

516
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: added that while she had heard rumors of John having

517
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: an explosive temper, in her words, she had not witnessed anything.

518
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,479
Speaker 18: He was a very homely person and was not at

519
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 18: all sociable. I often saw him with his children, and

520
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 18: I got the opinion that he was a good father.

521
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: But Kelly noted a change in Bromwin about a fortnight

522
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: before she disappeared.

523
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 18: She would often cry over very small things and would

524
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 18: always be talking about herself and wrapped up in her

525
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 18: own little world. She would often waffle on about things,

526
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 18: and she appeared to be stressing out over her marriage breakdown.

527
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 18: I was aware that she went to see a clairvoyant

528
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 18: who goes by the name pen Dragon. After believing everything

529
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 18: the clairvoyant had told her, Bronwin thought that Jacko was

530
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 18: her night in Shining Armor.

531
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: Kelly recalled the newly single mother appearing to be under

532
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: a great deal of stress.

533
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 18: She wanted to do the best thing for herself and

534
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 18: the children, but more so for the children She was

535
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 18: advised that it was important that she lived in the

536
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 18: house because she and the children needed the space and

537
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 18: it would have been better in respect of a property settlement.

538
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: When Kelly went to a birthday party on Saturday night,

539
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: May fifteen, about twenty four hours before Bromwyn disappeared, she

540
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: saw Bromwyn there.

541
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 18: She was flitting from one group of people to another

542
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 18: and sort of laughing and giggling to herself for no reason.

543
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 18: She had only a couple of drinks, so it wasn't

544
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 18: the alcohol that made her act strangely. Bronwin was attempting

545
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 18: to seek everyone's attention at the party, but most people

546
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 18: avoided being too involved with her because everyone was sort

547
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 18: of fed up with hearing about her life and marriage problems.

548
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: However, Kelly did not for a moment believe that Bromwyn

549
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: would have left voluntarily.

550
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 18: I fear that she has met with some form of

551
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 18: foul play. She was a very dedicated mother to her

552
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 18: children and there is no way in this world that

553
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 18: she would leave without them. She also had a vested

554
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 18: interest in the house and was very entrenched in legal

555
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 18: proceedings to obtain a future for her and her children.

556
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 3: Good morning, Hey, Kelly, how are you going?

557
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 5: I'm well, how are you?

558
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 19: Yeah?

559
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 3: Not bad. Kelly O'Brien is still in Linux.

560
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: In the three decad since Brahmin disappeared, Kelly has come

561
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: to know John's daughter Jodi, and she sees John around

562
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: Lenox every now and then. I think it was Robin

563
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: who described you as a bit of a heart of

564
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: the community in terms of all the programs you run

565
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: for children and helping their physical and mental health and

566
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: so on.

567
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 5: That's very generous.

568
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 20: So he used to take her ex husband serving in

569
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 20: the mornings that I got him into the surf.

570
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 5: I guess I didn't learn to seve as a youngster.

571
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 5: I learned sef here.

572
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 3: So I just loved it. It still do.

573
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 20: I moved to Lenox with my partner Max in nineteen ninety.

574
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,719
Speaker 20: Goods grow and expanded. I think it's a much busier place.

575
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 20: It's less tight knit as a community. It's reframing its identity.

576
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: It's become incredibly affluent now, whereas before it was a

577
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: lot more sleepy.

578
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

579
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 20: I have a mate and we were having a yat

580
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 20: the other day and he said, when I first came

581
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 20: to Lenox, it used to be this town where you

582
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 20: can't someone you go what do you do?

583
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 5: Do you fish or do you serve?

584
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 3: Where do you see John.

585
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 5: On the beaches?

586
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 20: We've done a lot of things in Lennox, my partner

587
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 20: and I surfing related things, events and community and quite

588
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 20: public things.

589
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: I've got a sense of the way you perceive things

590
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: at that time from your statement.

591
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 21: Oh look, it was really such a strange thing that

592
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 21: it's so accurate, and I'd forgotten about a couple of

593
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 21: things that I'd mentioned.

594
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 5: My reflection is as a person I am now.

595
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 21: I look at the statement and I think how terribly

596
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 21: non compassionate I was for Bronwyn, And I think, oh goodness,

597
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 21: where was the supports for her and some kindness around

598
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 21: what very challenging situations she was going through?

599
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 20: Where was the network for Bronwyn emotionally upset and crying

600
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 20: here and there. We're not the nicest people because we're

601
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 20: very needy. And I look back and I think, oh, really,

602
00:31:55,120 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 20: where were we all? She was very committed to provide

603
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 20: the stability for the.

604
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 5: Children and herself.

605
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 20: It's unfathomable to me that it's a runoff and leave

606
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 20: the children. She just really adored the children. It's just

607
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 20: not something people do in my experience.

608
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: I remember when we spoke briefly the other day you said,

609
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: was the fact that it was a bit awkward or

610
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: you weren't sure whether you could speak freely about it,

611
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: just because of the community ties and you're closest to

612
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: the community and the relationships with others, you felt unsure

613
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: about whether you could talk to me.

614
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 3: How did you reconcile things?

615
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 20: People go through journeys, and for me, I'm a person

616
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 20: in this very strong sense of justice. I work in

617
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 20: the field of child protection. There is such a massive

618
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 20: loss for the children of Bronwyn, and I would prefer

619
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 20: to know that they have some sense of closure about

620
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 20: what did happen to their mum. Things settled here, but

621
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 20: they don't actually heal for the people where it matters

622
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 20: most and it's hurt most. Some of the connections for

623
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 20: the family are still here and I'm befriends with the

624
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 20: people and see some of the parties that've spoken about.

625
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: Do you have a sense of how John Winfield would

626
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: feel about you talking.

627
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 22: I don't know.

628
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 5: He's really closed.

629
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: Given the knowledge that people have had and the suspicions

630
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: that some of those people have had for so many years.

631
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 3: Why do you think John has stayed in the community.

632
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 20: Some people aren't runners. You know they've made a commitment

633
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 20: and you just keep going. Here's a stayer. If you're

634
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 20: an isolated person, you don't really care about other people

635
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 20: or what they think, then could.

636
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 5: Just create your life and you're quite happy.

637
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 20: I suppose what if someone is accused of things that

638
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 20: they didn't do, why should they have to run away?

639
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 20: And did you speak with Crystal and Jody and little

640
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 20: Lauren or not little Laurence?

641
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 21: Oh?

642
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 3: Could she be?

643
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 5: Goodness? Man?

644
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've talked to and met Crystal. It's complicated, Kelly.

645
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: She's concerned about straining her relationship with Lauren, and I

646
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: think Lauren has been loyally backing her father. I'm not

647
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: putting any pressure on her, and I haven't even asked

648
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: her for a formal interview. If Jodie wants to talk

649
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 1: to me, I would welcome that, of course, hopefully John.

650
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: I mean I don't think John will want to talk,

651
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: but I hope that he'll consider it.

652
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 20: I'm going to hedge bets that no one's going to

653
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 20: want to upset Dad. It's all been too hard. Past

654
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 20: is the past, and let it sit.

655
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 5: There what most people would want to know. Do you

656
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 5: think your dad did it or not?

657
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 23: All?

658
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 20: That's quite untenable to think of something so horrific.

659
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 5: I suspect it's.

660
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: Been thirty one years since Brahmin disappeared, and I get

661
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: sense you still feel uncomfortable raising or talking about it

662
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: with John, to ask him, Hey, has anyone seen Bromwin?

663
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 3: Like where is she? Do you know you've got the ideas.

664
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 20: I've never spoken to John about it. I never feel

665
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 20: very comfortable to bring that up. I probably still wouldn't.

666
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 20: I'm a curious person. I work in social services and

667
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 20: I love stories.

668
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 5: I never wanted to have a mystery in my life

669
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 5: like that.

670
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 1: I guess I'm more thinking about the truth that comes

671
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: from transparency and openness and talking about things, because in

672
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: my experience, it's the secrecy and the concealment.

673
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

674
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 20: No, I agree, And I actually just said to my partner,

675
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 20: it's exactly like a sexual abuse scenario when people they

676
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 20: turn a blind eye or they just they don't believe.

677
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 5: That it may have happened.

678
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 20: And I think for other people in John's family or

679
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 20: community don't want to believe that something so iboric could

680
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 20: have happened, and we also, I don't want to believe

681
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 20: that Bronlin could have cut and brown and left the children.

682
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 5: And if there's no evidence, then.

683
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 20: People sort of go, well, I don't know, hands up

684
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 20: in the air, what do you do?

685
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: It then just enters this kind of twilight zone and

686
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 1: then one decade, two decades, three decades past.

687
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 24: Love is caring, sharing, knowing someone, perhaps not every intimate detail, liking, affection,

688
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 24: making love and being each other's best friend, tolerance and

689
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 24: patience for each other's bad habits, as well as praise

690
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 24: and credit for the good.

691
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: Peter Shannon and the husband of Robin from whom you

692
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: heard earlier, recalled seeing Bromwin at the birthday party.

693
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 25: I remember that Bronwin looked a bit lonely that night.

694
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 25: Bromwan didn't have a partner with her, and she was

695
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 25: by herself. At no stage on the Saturday night of

696
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 25: May fifteen, nineteen ninety three did Bromwin mention to me

697
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 25: that she was going to be absent from work on

698
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 25: the Tuesday, Nor did she mention anything about leaving the

699
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 25: Lennox Head area.

700
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: Peter had a rapport with Bromman. It came from them

701
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: working together at Eden's Takeaway.

702
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 25: Broman would always talk about her girls at work, and

703
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 25: I know that she really loved them. During my conversations

704
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 25: with Bronwin, she would tell me about her husband, John.

705
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 25: Bromwin said that John was a bit of an old woman.

706
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 25: She said that he was very meticulous in the house.

707
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 25: He hated any mess anywhere in the house. Bromwan would

708
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 25: tell me that John had insisted that everything in the

709
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 25: house had to be kept spotlessly clean.

710
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 1: Tracy Brown, another co owner of Eden's Takeaway, was scornful

711
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: of the idea that Bromwin would have gone off to

712
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: start a new life without her children. On one occasion,

713
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: Tracy and her daughter had been to see Bromwan at

714
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 1: the house at Sandstone Crescent.

715
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,919
Speaker 26: Bronwyn told me a couple of days later that John

716
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 26: went right off about some biscuit crumbs being dropped on

717
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 26: the tiles.

718
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: Tracy recalled that at some time in March or April

719
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety three.

720
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 26: Bronwyn told me John had told her that there was

721
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 26: no way that she was going to get his house.

722
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 26: I vaguely recall Bromwyn mentioning something about custody for the

723
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 26: youngest child, Lauren. I think John was going to put

724
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 26: in for custody of this child. I do remember at

725
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 26: a later time, Bromwyn told me that she moved back

726
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 26: into the family home. Bromwn told me that she was

727
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 26: scared John would come back to the house and try

728
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 26: to get her out. I recall her saying that she

729
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 26: had to get a locksmith to get back into the

730
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 26: house as the locks have been changed. Bronwyn was an

731
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 26: exceptionally good mother to her children. Everything she did was

732
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 26: for her children. There is no way known, in my opinion,

733
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 26: that Bronwyn would ever leave those children.

734
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: You heard Tracy recalling Bromwin's concern that John would try

735
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: to win custody of the children, or at least Lauren.

736
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: In an earlier episode. You heard Joan and that's not

737
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: her real name, recalling her talks with her friend Bromwin

738
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: at that time in nineteen ninety three, and Joan told

739
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: police about this. Here's Joan again.

740
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 27: She was worried because she had overheard John talking to

741
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 27: his father saying it to be better if he had

742
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 27: the kids, because he had better chance of having the

743
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 27: house if he had the kids.

744
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: It seemed that she was worried he had a strategy

745
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: to seek custody of the children, and the children were

746
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: as strategy as part of keeping the house.

747
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 27: And they could call it quits.

748
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 28: She was worried about it.

749
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 3: It's pretty bold. Crystal was another father's child. Yeah.

750
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: Now let's go back to Ian Glewis, or Scruffy as

751
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: everyone in Lenox calls him. He told me that on

752
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: one of her visits in May nineteen ninety three, on

753
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: when shared the legal advice she had received about her

754
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: right to return to the family home in Sandstone Crescent,

755
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: she said said, the solicitor's great in Lismore's there's such

756
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 1: a thing of being forced to leave, you know, when

757
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 1: it's actually the marital home.

758
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 6: And he was still lord of the manor even when

759
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 6: he wasn't there. You know, he was going down to

760
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 6: Sydney and working. She'd been forced to vacate the premises

761
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 6: and move down because of he behaved, whatever's gone down,

762
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 6: and because of the atomic situation and controlling in the

763
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 6: violence he's by his actions has forced you to he's

764
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 6: the one that should be gone with you look out

765
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 6: for the girls. And she gave her the advice to

766
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 6: change the locks and move in place.

767
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 3: While he was missing. She told Maria about that.

768
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 6: It was brom when he was inside of our kitchen

769
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 6: table talking to Maria and having coffee and stuff. She

770
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 6: told that I was there at the time when I

771
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 6: heard her say this, and I said, I don't think

772
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 6: that's such a good idea.

773
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 3: I said, because he's going to lose it. He's going

774
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 3: to peek out, and he was.

775
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 6: Going to not be happy.

776
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 3: And that's what happened.

777
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 6: And when she said that the solicitor has said the

778
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 6: property is yours, he's the one that has to get

779
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 6: out and go there with the locks, has change the

780
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 6: locks and take possession of it. And you know, within

781
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 6: the law, it might be what's right legally to you,

782
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 6: and you're pull or right in the world to go

783
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 6: in and take possession of it, right because he's forced

784
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 6: you into this position that might be perfectly right to

785
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 6: do and legally right to do. But they're not putting

786
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 6: a twenty four hour fucking security guard on your fame

787
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 6: door when you do it. And I said, I don't

788
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 6: think that's such a good idea.

789
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 3: Bromwin.

790
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: Scruffy believed Bromwin should have remained a rent paying tenant

791
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: in the townhouse on Byron Street keep the peace with John.

792
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: You see him in the surf from time to time, No,

793
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: never his favorite beach's Bowlders.

794
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 6: He never shops downtown or comes to the service station

795
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 6: to fulfill or anything. He was like an exile from

796
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 6: the town, not to be seen. Never seen him with

797
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 6: a friend. I was the closest thing to what he

798
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 6: had as a friend.

799
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: Here's the landlady, Shirley Taylor again. These are her words

800
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: from a police statement. A quarter centgo. It's not her voice.

801
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 29: During the afternoon of the fourteenth of May, Bromwin came

802
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 29: around to my place and told me that she was

803
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 29: moving out of the townhouse and moving back into her

804
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 29: house because John had moved back to Sydney. She was

805
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 29: extremely happy about moving back into her house. She moved

806
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 29: some of her things out that day and left other

807
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 29: things such as clothing, crockery, and kitchen items in the townhouse.

808
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 29: I didn't see bromin again, and when she didn't come

809
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 29: back to get her things, I moved them into our shed.

810
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 29: I kept bringing her house all the time. There was

811
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 29: no answer and the phone would ring out.

812
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: He is deb Bromwin's good friend and closest neighbor.

813
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 3: Again.

814
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 16: I was working and she was busy downtown, and we

815
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 16: weren't probably on each other stall steps as much as

816
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 16: she would have been if she was living here. But

817
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 16: I did go visit her down there, re caught up,

818
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 16: so it wasn't that long that she had been living

819
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 16: down there for now, either six or eight weeks later.

820
00:43:58,440 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 28: I was here one.

821
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 16: Friday night and Murray had broken his back. Then he'd

822
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 16: fallen and hit his back in the surf, and so

823
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 16: he was actually in the hospital. And I knew she

824
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 16: wasn't there, and I knew John wasn't there because he'd

825
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 16: left to go to Sydney. But I looked out the

826
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 16: window because I could hear commotion next door late at night,

827
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 16: and there was a trailer and a car, and I

828
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 16: thought someone's moving in up there, you know, I was

829
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 16: seeing them.

830
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 4: Maybe he's rented the house.

831
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 16: And then lo and behold about nine o'clock that night

832
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 16: and knock on the front door here and opened It

833
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 16: was from him, and she said, oh hi, And I said, oh.

834
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 3: What are you doing?

835
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,919
Speaker 4: She goes, let's back into the house. I went, oh,

836
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 4: are you why I'm paying all this rent downtown?

837
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 16: I'm entitled to be in the house, so I've been

838
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 16: told by solicia, I'm entitled to be in the house.

839
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 16: I went, what's he going to do when he finds

840
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 16: out you're in the house, because I just thought John's

841
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 16: gonna flow. I guess if he finds out she's in

842
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 16: the house, because that's how he was. She said, no, no, no,

843
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 16: She said, I've got people up and call. And I said, well,

844
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 16: Murray's in hospital, so you know, I haven't got any

845
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 16: backup if anything happens.

846
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 21: You know.

847
00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 16: She came in and we were chatting, and I do

848
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 16: remember we had a glass of wine. We just had

849
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 16: a general chit chat talking about getting locks changed on

850
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 16: the house, or having the locks change.

851
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 3: She hadn't talked to at least Flight, our neighbor. Yeah,

852
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 3: they had a spare key because she couldn't get in.

853
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 3: She couldn't get in. That's right. Roman's brother Andy Reid

854
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 3: has something to say about this. She got to the

855
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:24,760
Speaker 3: house and she wrung me in. She's gone.

856
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 12: The bastards changed the locks. It's changed the locks. I

857
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 12: can't get him. My key doesn't work. I said to her,

858
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 12: we'll get a locksmith, get into the house, get the

859
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 12: locks changed, get your own key, and you're in.

860
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 16: She made a phone call on my phone, and I

861
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 16: remember the phone used to be on the wall in

862
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 16: the kitchen back then we had the difference set up.

863
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,439
Speaker 16: It might have been a locksmith because it was quite late,

864
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 16: but unless it was a twenty four hour one which

865
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 16: had it for a bit long.

866
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 3: As she left.

867
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: Romman's other neighbor, Heather Hardgrave, and her husband Lloyd, remembered

868
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: seeing Bromwin. It must have been on the friday. They

869
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: gave written statements to police in September nineteen ninety eight.

870
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: Heather and Lloyd have died. These are their words, it's

871
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: not their voices. Lloyd refers to his wife by her

872
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: preferred name, Chris.

873
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 13: She called out to me from our yard on her

874
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 13: side of the house. I went downstairs to her and

875
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 13: she was looking along the windows of her place. When

876
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,399
Speaker 13: I approached Bromwin, she asked me if I had a key,

877
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 13: and I told her I didn't. She said that she

878
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 13: couldn't get into the house because John had changed all

879
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:36,240
Speaker 13: the locks.

880
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 3: Bromwin had very little cash.

881
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: She confided to her neighbor that John had closed her

882
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:43,919
Speaker 1: credit card.

883
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 13: She was very upset and crying, and said that John

884
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 13: had threatened to take the children from her, the same

885
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 13: as he had done to his first wife and taken

886
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 13: Jody from her.

887
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 15: After my wife and Bronwyn had been speaking for a

888
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 15: short time, came over to join them. Bronman inquired from

889
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 15: Chris and I if we had a key to her home.

890
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 15: Bronman said that she was unable to get into the

891
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 15: house and she appeared to be very upset at the time.

892
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 15: It was at this time that Bronman told Chris and

893
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 15: I that Jonathan Winfield had threatened that he was going

894
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 15: to take the children from her.

895
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 13: Bronwin then left and went back around the other side

896
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:27,919
Speaker 13: of the house, and I didn't see her again.

897
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 15: It was not long after this that the locksmith arrived,

898
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 15: and I'm aware that Bronman moved back into the house.

899
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 13: Later that night, I noticed lights on inside the house

900
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 13: and I assumed that she had gained entry into the house.

901
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: Bromwin's half sister, Kim Marshall, remembers speaking to her just

902
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: two days before she disappeared. Hi, Kim, how right We

903
00:47:54,600 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: were talking about the Friday evening, the fourteenth of May.

904
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 3: She was moving back into Sandstone Crescent.

905
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:08,320
Speaker 30: In my last phone call with Bromwin, I was actually

906
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 30: very surprised to hear her report to me of her

907
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 30: excitement that she had actually gained entry. Oh, you're back

908
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 30: in the house, and Roman goes, yes, yes, I'm so excited.

909
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 4: I'm so pleased. I've had been speaking to Andrew. I've

910
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 4: been to the lawyer.

911
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 30: Andrew explained to me that I needed to get the

912
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 30: locksmith and gain inter to the house and do that

913
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 30: nine tenths of the law thing. And so I've done

914
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 30: this because Jonathan's away working in Sydney, and I thought

915
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 30: it was the right moment for me to actually get

916
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 30: back into the house where I can resettle the girls

917
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 30: and myself and get things back to normal. I've got

918
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 30: the trailer here, I'm unloading everything. I've got to work tomorrow.

919
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 30: We're here, We're safe. I'm actually looking in the window

920
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 30: now and I can see Debbie and Murray across from

921
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 30: the house. She gave me the understanding that she felt

922
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 30: very strong, very empowered, very capable, and that this was

923
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 30: the right way forward. Everything's fine. And I was like, oh, okay,

924
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 30: so when I come up, I'll be coming to actually

925
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 30: stay with you there, and she goes yes, yes, And

926
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 30: the lawyer's doing everything and everything's going to be wrong.

927
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 30: So it was like she was taking her territory back

928
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 30: or making her mark to actually say, well, I'm in

929
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 30: the house. You're not going to get me back out

930
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 30: because I'm in it now, so you stay away. And

931
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 30: I was just totally taken aback and I just left

932
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 30: the phone call saying what you've done is that actually

933
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 30: a safe thing to do?

934
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 4: And I'll talk to you soon.

935
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 3: When did your next talk to her?

936
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:58,399
Speaker 4: Never got to talk to her again.

937
00:49:58,440 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 22: That was it.

938
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 4: That was the last time I actually spoke to her.

939
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 1: Here's some further detail from Bromwin's friend Joan and how

940
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: did you learn that she had moved back into the

941
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:13,720
Speaker 1: family house at Sandstone Crescent.

942
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 27: She rang me on the Sunday morning asked if I

943
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 27: could mind her kids and I said I couldn't because

944
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 27: one of mine was sick. And she said that she

945
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 27: was back in the house And I said when did

946
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 27: you move back in? And she said Friday, But Saturday

947
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 27: night was the first night I spent that And I said,

948
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 27: how does John feel about that? She said he wasn't

949
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 27: happy to start with buddies all right now? She had

950
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 27: no plans to move away, and she never mentioned going

951
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 27: anywhere she was going to go to work. It's almost

952
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 27: want to meet mind the kids. No mention of going away.

953
00:50:58,160 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 3: That was the Sunday.

954
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: You say in your statement in nineteen ninety eight. She

955
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: also told me that John had said to her that

956
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 1: if she bad mouthed him around Lennox Head that.

957
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 3: He would kill her. And it's a pretty powerful allegation.

958
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: And you put that statement in five years after Bromin's disappearance.

959
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 22: And it was not somethingly forgetting. Is that if someone

960
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 22: tells you that, I guess that's why she had disappeared.

961
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 22: I stride by felt something had happened to her. She said,

962
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,240
Speaker 22: you'd have to teach me how to made the grass.

963
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 22: And it's the last time I spoke to her. So

964
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 22: she had no intentions of just up and leaving.

965
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 3: Is deb again.

966
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 16: I didn't see a lot of her on the Saturday

967
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 16: because she was moving from down there to hear I

968
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 16: was actually Murray was coming out of hospital that day,

969
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 16: so I'd probably gone into the hospital and pick him up,

970
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 16: and you know I had little kids.

971
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: You said that you asked her, what're you going to

972
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: do when he finds out? Or was that effect you

973
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: were a bit concerned about what his reaction would be.

974
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 5: Is that right?

975
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 16: Well, I was worried for her because I thought, well,

976
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 16: if John finds out she's in the house, he's going

977
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,760
Speaker 16: to basically lose his you know what, because his house

978
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 16: was his shrine. She had to move out, but it

979
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 16: was her house too, Yes, exactly. And that's what she

980
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 16: got legal advice, you see. And I think it was

981
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 16: about what she was entitled to, and that's where I

982
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 16: think she got the advice from to move back in.

983
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 16: And then when I had that conversation, I said, what

984
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 16: are you doing. I've got every right to be here.

985
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 16: I've got legal advice I can appa should be in

986
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 16: the house. And that's what I'm doing. I can't afford

987
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 16: to pay rent down here, and you know John's not here,

988
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 16: I'm moving back in. At the time, I just thought

989
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 16: he's just going to give her such a hard time,

990
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 16: really make it difficult for her.

991
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 3: But in your mind you saw it possible, violets, Hello,

992
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 3: oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

993
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 22: Would you agree with that?

994
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 3: He would not have let her come back to that house. No,

995
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 3: that's right. He wouldn't have been happy about it. No,

996
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 3: I have no evidence solvingim being violent. His house was

997
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 3: his shrine. He loved that house. That was him.

998
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 16: In conversations I'd had with Bromwin prior to her moving out,

999
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 16: when I used to say to her, look, you know

1000
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 16: you should just leave him and you're entitled to anything,

1001
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 16: and I remember her saying this. She said, I'll never

1002
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 16: be able to move out because he won't let me

1003
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 16: have anything and I'll be left destitute. I said, no,

1004
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 16: but you've got rights, you know. No, no, no, you

1005
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 16: don't know what he's like, is what she said. This

1006
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,879
Speaker 16: is before that weekend. I knew it for five years

1007
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 16: before she went missing, because I used to say to her,

1008
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 16: he's that miserable.

1009
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 28: You know, he's such an ahole.

1010
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 3: Why don't you just leave him?

1011
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 28: And she said, I can't, He'll leave me with nothing.

1012
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 16: Now he'd been married three times too, so he had

1013
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 16: his first wife, then a second one, and then was

1014
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 16: the third. And then when she did leave unless what,

1015
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 16: I was surprised. I thought, oh well, and then I thought, no,

1016
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 16: good on your girl. You need to be happy, and

1017
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 16: you know you're only young.

1018
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: The chronology is really interesting because you see Roman Friday evening. Yes,

1019
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 1: she says, I'm moving back in and I'm just going

1020
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: to assert my rights. Yes, because this is possibly half

1021
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: my Yes, yes, she moves back in. You've got things

1022
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: to do on Saturday.

1023
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 24: Yep.

1024
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 3: Did you see her Sunday? I did.

1025
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 16: The last conversation I had with her was on that Sunday.

1026
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 3: In Sydney.

1027
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: That same afternoon, John abruptly changed his own plans to

1028
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: continue working on a house in the Shire. He went

1029
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: to Sydney Airport on Sunday and checked in for a

1030
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: one way flight to Ballina. It's a twenty minute drive

1031
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: from the regional airport to the house at Sandstone Crescent,

1032
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: and the.

1033
00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 16: Sunday she came down to see me and asked me

1034
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 16: could I look after the kids for a few hours

1035
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 16: because she had to work.

1036
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 3: I said yeah, sure, you know.

1037
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 16: So the kids basically played between my place and her place,

1038
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 16: and then she got home at about I reckon it

1039
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 16: was either beef between five and her past that afternoon

1040
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 16: Sunday afternoon, and I was standing out the front and

1041
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:18,839
Speaker 16: she came. She said, thanks for having the kids.

1042
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:19,399
Speaker 3: Were they okay?

1043
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 16: Finally just been playing. We were chatting and I remember saying, so,

1044
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 16: what's on this week for you? And she said, oh, well,

1045
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 16: I'm still moving Because she was still between moving. I'll

1046
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 16: still be moving in tomorrow and the kids will be

1047
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:32,800
Speaker 16: going to school. I've got to get them home and

1048
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 16: get them bathed and fed and ready for school tomorrow.

1049
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 16: And I said, okay, well I'm doing the same, you know,

1050
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 16: because my kids will be going to school as well.

1051
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 3: And I said, I'll catch you later.

1052
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 4: And that was the last time I spoke to her,

1053
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 4: and you never saw her again, never after that.

1054
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: A neighbor friend, Virginia Bevis, still feels uncomfortable about her

1055
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 1: small part in Bromwin's sudden return to live in the

1056
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: house at Sandstone Crescent.

1057
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 3: Magnificent stretch of coastline. It is gorgeous.

1058
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 28: We made the decision we didn't want to go Nearbyron

1059
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:07,720
Speaker 28: and not just like Lennox.

1060
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 4: Do you might want to talk to Lee?

1061
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 28: He's just inside. Do you want me to call him out?

1062
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:15,319
Speaker 23: Yeah?

1063
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 28: Any daughter? He thought she was lovely.

1064
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: Virginia and Lee and their children lived very close to

1065
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: Bromin and John's house on Sandstone Crescent. They talked to

1066
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: her regularly. One of their daughters used to babysit Bromwin's girls.

1067
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 1: The children would worry about making any mess in the

1068
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,399
Speaker 1: house and upsetting John. A lot of people have talked

1069
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 1: to me about his obsession with house.

1070
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 3: Does that ring a bell?

1071
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 28: Well, he locked the kids in the carriage while he

1072
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 28: was going surfing.

1073
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 3: How did we know that?

1074
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 28: Because that's what happened when my daughter and her friend

1075
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 28: went down to Just a Crystal. They walked down I'll

1076
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 28: tell you wanted to drink of water and Crystal said

1077
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:03,439
Speaker 28: I we're not allowed in the house while he's not here.

1078
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,360
Speaker 28: And she says, I'm getting a drink or order and

1079
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,439
Speaker 28: walked in. The next thing I heard screaming, I've looked

1080
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 28: out the window upstairs and they're running back. He'd come

1081
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 28: home and caught him and kicked him out. I just

1082
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 28: thought it was strange looking the kids in the garage

1083
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 28: and not letting them in the house.

1084
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 3: To go surfing.

1085
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 28: And I thought they were too young.

1086
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 1: What do you think would be different if someone with

1087
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: Roman circumstances disappeared like that Today, it'll.

1088
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 28: Be able to social media instantly. I think the police

1089
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 28: did have better investigative skills.

1090
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 1: Did you form an impression about how determined or not

1091
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: she was to remain separated from him?

1092
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 15: Oh?

1093
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was stone separated. You could see the trouble.

1094
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 3: Oh god, how did you distinguish it? What did you say? Now?

1095
00:57:58,720 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 3: Just a voice?

1096
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 28: And when she started confiding and things like that, she

1097
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 28: was definitely troubled. It was a bad relationship.

1098
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 3: Did you still see them around them?

1099
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 28: If I did, i'd cross the road. Oh yeah, definitely.

1100
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 28: But he booted her out the house and then pissed

1101
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 28: off the Sydney.

1102
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 15: Yeah.

1103
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 19: I was wondering, why did she end up leaving the

1104
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 19: house because they kicked her out? And is that something

1105
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 19: you remember or something she said to me? In their

1106
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 19: weeks in the townhouse.

1107
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 1: According to Virginia, Ronwin and her two girls had struggled

1108
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 1: to stay warm.

1109
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 28: I remember telling me how cold it was down there,

1110
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 28: and the two kids in her were alway just huddled.

1111
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 3: She was struggling.

1112
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 28: It was just certain things. She said, something about that's

1113
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 28: all they could afford and off freezing, and he was

1114
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 28: abusive and she was scared of him. Just when I said,

1115
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 28: smooth back in the house. He's in Sydney. It was

1116
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 28: my buddy idea.

1117
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 5: You won't like it.

1118
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 3: Oh, you built it together. It's half hers. Yeah, not

1119
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 3: how he saw.

1120
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: If it makes you feel any less responsible. Her solicitor

1121
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 1: also gave her that advice, and so did her brother,

1122
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 1: so you shouldn't have to bear that burden. For many years,

1123
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: neither Virginia nor Lee had any contact with police investigating

1124
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: Bronwin's disappearance, but in two thousand and nine a statement

1125
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 1: was taken. I scrolled through it on my laptop while

1126
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 1: we sit at the front of her house and Lee

1127
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: remains inside. So you don't become a witness until you

1128
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 1: give this statement. Yeah, and that's two thousand and nine.

1129
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 3: Do you know why that is?

1130
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 5: No?

1131
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 28: I actually asked him. They said, we have the diary,

1132
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 28: and I said, well, why didn't it It had my

1133
00:59:58,800 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 28: address in it.

1134
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 3: Why didn't you ever come and see me?

1135
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 28: I saw her the night before she went missing. My

1136
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 28: phone numbers written there. It actually said Saturday night Virginia

1137
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 28: phone number, etc. And you never contacted me. I just

1138
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 28: think there's a lot of incompetence. The place need to

1139
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 28: pick the game up the detectives.

1140
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 3: That's embarrassing.

1141
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 28: Yeah, that was hard to find anyway. We never changed

1142
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 28: phone numbers or anything, and it took them twenty years

1143
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 28: to find me.

1144
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 1: Incredible, You say Robin told me about Jonathan being abusive

1145
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 1: towards her.

1146
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 3: Yes, I interpreted from that that Jonathan had been physically

1147
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 3: violent to her. Yes, had hit her and been very

1148
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 3: abusive feeling at her.

1149
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 1: She said to me words the effect of, you don't

1150
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: know him, he's been abusive before, and he scares me.

1151
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 31: Yeah.

1152
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 28: That was at Eden's, at in front of Aiden's. I

1153
01:00:58,960 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 28: was sitting down talking.

1154
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 3: I think I haven't told her to get a locksmith,

1155
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 3: which she did.

1156
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 28: She couldn't get in because he changed the locks. I

1157
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 28: can remember even saying the locksmith parked out the front

1158
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 28: of their place. Because I'd walk from Sandstone around the

1159
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 28: corner at the Granite Street every day. I was on

1160
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 28: a builder.

1161
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 3: So it's their lost. Shortly before meeting Virginia, one of

1162
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 3: Bromwin's relatives tracked down some video of her. Hello, Hello,

1163
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 3: is that Megan? Do you have any video or audio

1164
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 3: of Bromwin.

1165
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 23: There was a film shown at the Colonial Inquest that

1166
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 23: belonged to the neighbor and the early other one, Channel

1167
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 23: ten made a documentary called Sometimes I Get Frightened, and

1168
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 23: that was a story of my uncle Phillip with a transplant.

1169
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 23: That Bromwin was there and she is interviewed and it

1170
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:58,920
Speaker 23: shows her with her father's heartbreaking you. And John's actually

1171
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 23: in that too. My brother had it transferred onto GISK

1172
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 23: for Crystal.

1173
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 3: Maybe I just want to say the video with Bronwin

1174
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 3: in it, that.

1175
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:13,439
Speaker 20: Was the first time I watched it was yesterday when

1176
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 20: my grandfather sent it to me, and I was like, oh,

1177
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 20: my goodness, like I've never seen a video of her

1178
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 20: before or heard her voice.

1179
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 1: It was filmed in nineteen eighty six when Bronwyn and

1180
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 1: John were visiting her father Philip, he had just received

1181
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 1: a liver transplant. Bronwyn tenderly comforts her dad at his bedside,

1182
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: while John stands close.

1183
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 28: She really cared for him, and she really cared for

1184
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 28: those she loved.

1185
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 3: She whispers something in his ear.

1186
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 1: Later, she responds to a question from the documentary's reporter

1187
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 1: Des McWilliam.

1188
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 32: On the third day, Philip Reid still hasn't regained full consciousness.

1189
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 3: He remains critical.

1190
01:02:56,560 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 32: Bronwin, forever optimistic, looks for signs of progress, and tries

1191
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 32: to reinforce her father's own will to live.

1192
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 3: But his system is tiring and breaking down, and some

1193
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 3: days are.

1194
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 28: Better than others.

1195
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 33: You know, if I think he's responding, sometimes you'll blink

1196
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 33: or wink or move his head. If I think he's responding,

1197
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 33: it makes me.

1198
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:18,520
Speaker 28: Feel a lot better.

1199
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 33: But all I ever telling him is that he's going

1200
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 33: to get better, the sort of things that he'd wanted.

1201
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 33: You know that he's leaves functioning, his kidneys are fine,

1202
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:30,160
Speaker 33: and you know, and that his heart's still it's strong,

1203
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 33: and that he's.

1204
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 16: Going to be your eye.

1205
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 32: Two weeks now since the second transplant, and Philip continues

1206
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 32: to hang on to life with the frailess thread.

1207
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 3: He's a good bloke, isn't he.

1208
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 28: Here's the best, the best, Oh that came in sits

1209
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 28: same hair everything.

1210
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, her dad, he died soon after that. She had

1211
01:03:57,680 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 3: a pretty tough life. I think I think she did.

1212
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: She still wondered what she'd be doing now if the

1213
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 1: separation and divorce had gone smoothly.

1214
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 28: Yeah, greedy bastard. He didn't give that damn house up.

1215
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 28: She was genuinely scared. How could she have an accident

1216
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 28: not be reported? And if she left him, why didn't

1217
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 28: she take the kids? At the very loose crystal, I'll

1218
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 28: get her close.

1219
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it would be great to meet your husband. Yeah welcome, Yeah, okay,

1220
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 3: good to see her.

1221
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 28: It's a bad prong when I just saw a video

1222
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 28: of her.

1223
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 3: Ah, is this what this is about?

1224
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 12: Oh?

1225
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 3: I did not know what you're here.

1226
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 31: Yeah, our oldest daughter was a babysitter for her the

1227
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 31: night before she went missing. She was a lovely lady.

1228
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 31: She'd loved it kids.

1229
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 3: Did you know him? Well, no, not really.

1230
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 31: I made him a few times and I was sort

1231
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 31: of downing, slightly aloof and arrogant.

1232
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 3: That's it.

1233
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: What do you think about the proposition that she left

1234
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: and started the new life with not a chance, not

1235
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 1: a chance?

1236
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 3: The cicadas start up?

1237
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 15: Are they?

1238
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 3: What were the cicadas?

1239
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 28: Those bugs, those insects?

1240
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 34: And how old is he now?

1241
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 3: Well, he would be about seventy.

1242
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 34: Seventy thirty one years ago, yesterday, thirty one years ago. Incredible,

1243
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 34: It was just so obvious. When did you form that

1244
01:05:54,840 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 34: view years ago when it first happened. She completely disappear

1245
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 34: and she left the kids? Come on, don't conslp more intelligence?

1246
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 31: Do you can, right, old man, not leave the kids doing?

1247
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 3: What do you think the chances are? It's hard to say.

1248
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 1: The police wanted to charge him with murder, but the

1249
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 1: lawyers working for the DPP.

1250
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 3: They said, well, we don't think there's enough evidence to

1251
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 3: get a conviction and what if enough the current a

1252
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:42,560
Speaker 3: said he should have been charged with murder. So if

1253
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 3: you can find some more evidence, or if a new.

1254
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 1: DPP says, you know what, a jury listening to all

1255
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 1: this evidence, even though it's circumstantial, might well convict him.

1256
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 1: I drove out of Lennox and cuested the hill between

1257
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 1: en Clave and the busy M one Highway. It's a

1258
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 1: three hour drive back across the border into Queensland and

1259
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 1: up to Brisbane.

1260
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 5: Calling hello.

1261
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: It was pretty interesting talking to Virginia and housband Lee

1262
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: this afternoon.

1263
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 35: What they told me was they didn't talk to police

1264
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,120
Speaker 35: or give a statement to police until two thousand and nine,

1265
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 35: even though they spoke to Broman the night before she disappeared, right.

1266
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 21: Which is insane that they weren't talk to that would

1267
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 21: have been so feltful, so much.

1268
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 5: Earlier on.

1269
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 3: Roman confided that she was very fearful of John. That's

1270
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 3: so vital.

1271
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 35: The coroner didn't have that evidence and therefore the DPV

1272
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:56,440
Speaker 35: didn't have that evidence when the case was rejected.

1273
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:01,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, have changed things, but.

1274
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:21,120
Speaker 1: MinC Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas.

1275
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 3: As a podcast production for the Australian.

1276
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:28,559
Speaker 1: If anyone has information which may help solve this cold case,

1277
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:34,440
Speaker 1: please contact me confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian

1278
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:38,600
Speaker 1: dot com dot au. You can read more about this

1279
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:42,639
Speaker 1: case and see a range of photographs and other artwork

1280
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 1: at the website Bronwyn podcast dot com. Our subscribers and

1281
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 1: registered users here episodes first. The production and editorial team

1282
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:58,719
Speaker 1: for bromwin includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget,

1283
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:04,519
Speaker 1: Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen

1284
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:08,640
Speaker 1: and Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio production for this

1285
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:13,400
Speaker 1: podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music

1286
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 1: by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh,

1287
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:19,360
Speaker 1: a relation of bromin Winfield.

1288
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 3: We can only do this kind of journalism.

1289
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:26,160
Speaker 1: With the support of our subscribers and our major sponsors

1290
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:31,120
Speaker 1: like Harvey Norman. For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps,

1291
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 1: timelines and documents about this podcast and other podcasts including

1292
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 1: The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story,

1293
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 1: Shandy's Legacy and The Night Driver, go to The

1294
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 3: Australian dot com, dot au and subscribe