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Speaker 1: Sometimes science gives us what hope can't. Behind every unidentified

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Speaker 1: set of remains, there's a family waiting, aching for an answer,

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Speaker 1: and one woman has made it her mission to bring

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Speaker 1: those answers home. Dr Jody Ward is a forensic human

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Speaker 1: identification specialist.

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Speaker 2: Jody Ward is spearheading the national effort to solve cases

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Speaker 2: using cutting each techniques to test the bones, some of

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Speaker 2: which are decades old.

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Speaker 1: Some call her the matchmaker for the missing. She founded

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Speaker 1: Australia's national DNA program for Unidentified and Missing persons, a

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking project that's reunited families, solved long standing mysteries, and

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Speaker 1: change the way we understand loss.

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Speaker 2: These remains are potentially someone's children, parents and siblings, and

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Speaker 2: for thousands of Austrained families, they live this trauma every day,

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Speaker 2: not knowing where.

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Speaker 3: Their loved one is.

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Speaker 1: In this episode with sal Jody opens up about how

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Speaker 1: the program began, the fight to secure funding, and the

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Speaker 1: heartbreaking realities behind the science. This is a story about science,

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Speaker 1: determination and the sacred act of returning someone home, because,

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Speaker 1: as Jody reminds us, the missing truly matter.

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Speaker 4: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Missing Matter Podcast.

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Speaker 5: Once again, I feel privileged.

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Speaker 4: Every time I say this, but I've got a super

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Speaker 4: special superhuman with me today. She is a forensic human

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Speaker 4: identification specialist referred to by some as a matchmaker for

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Speaker 4: the missing. An expert in her field, a Churchhill fellow,

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Speaker 4: Doctor Jody Ward, is working tirelessly to help people like

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Speaker 4: me in the missing space through the amazing world of DNA.

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Speaker 4: Welcome Dr Jody Ward, Thanks sal thanks for having me.

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Speaker 4: Can we start with you telling the listeners a little

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Speaker 4: bit about your background, about who you are in the

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Speaker 4: missing space and how did you find yourself landing here.

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Speaker 2: So I'm a forensic human identification specialist and my area

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Speaker 2: of expertise is in forensic genetics, which involves us applying

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Speaker 2: DNA technology to try and identify unidentified human remains and

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Speaker 2: link them to some of our long term missing persons. Currently,

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Speaker 2: I am the founding director of a new social enterprise,

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Speaker 2: it's called Forensic Human Identification Company, and I'm also the

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Speaker 2: forensic geneticist for the Office of the Director of Authorized

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Speaker 2: Intervention CHEUUM in Ireland.

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Speaker 3: So that's a.

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Speaker 2: Special department that's been set up to help with the

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Speaker 2: excavation and identification of potentially up to about eight hundred

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Speaker 2: sets of remains, mostly young children and babies that died

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Speaker 2: during the era of a Mother and Baby institution. Prior

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Speaker 2: to these roles, I was the program lead of the

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Speaker 2: National DNA Program for Unidentified and Missing Persons, which ran

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Speaker 2: from twenty twenty to twenty twenty four at the Austrai

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Speaker 2: and Federal Police, and before that, I was the team

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Speaker 2: leader of a specialist DNA laboratory at the New South

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Speaker 2: Wales Forensic Laboratory, which I established to help with the

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Speaker 2: examination of some of New South Wales' unidentified human remains.

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Speaker 4: I'm very pleased to say we've met in person. I

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Speaker 4: was invited by the AFP the Austraian Federal Police back

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Speaker 4: in August of twenty twenty to come down and be

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Speaker 4: the representative for all long term missing families throughout Australia

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Speaker 4: and be the faith of their new program and its

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Speaker 4: official launch, which you were the lead for. My oldest

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Speaker 4: daughter Ella and I flew down from Brisbane at the

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Speaker 4: request of the National Missing Person's Coordination Center in Canberra,

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Speaker 4: Australia's capital city. Hey, Jodie, you played such a key

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Speaker 4: role in establishing the AFP's National DNA program for unidentified

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Speaker 4: and missing persons and last year in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 4: year awarded a Public Service Medal for your amazing work.

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Speaker 4: Now the program commenced in July twenty twenty and as

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Speaker 4: the program lead, can you share with us what your

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Speaker 4: goals were and the efforts you went to in getting

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Speaker 4: the green light for this program to go ahead.

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Speaker 2: Firstly, i'd like to thank you sal for coming to

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Speaker 2: that launch. It's not an easy job to stand up

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Speaker 2: in front of the media and launch something like that,

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Speaker 2: so we really appreciate you coming to do that as

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Speaker 2: a representative for all families of long term missing. So

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Speaker 2: my journey probably started about a decade before the national

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Speaker 2: DNA program launched. So in twenty eleven I was engaged

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Speaker 2: by New South Wales Police to establish a mitochondrial DNA

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Speaker 2: laboratory in New South Wales. And at the time it

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Speaker 2: was believed that mitochondrial DNA, which was considered a specialist

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Speaker 2: type of DNA testing, could be used to identify some

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Speaker 2: of the hundreds of remains.

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Speaker 3: In New South Wales.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't until that point that I realized that

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Speaker 2: we did have hundreds of unidentified human remains in New

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Speaker 2: South Wales. And then the more I learned about it,

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Speaker 2: the more I realized this wasn't just a problem that

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Speaker 2: New South Wales was facing. There was hundreds of unidentified

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Speaker 2: human remains all spread all across Australia, predominantly sitting on

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Speaker 2: the shelves of police facilities or mortuaries. So I was

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Speaker 2: tasked specifically for New South Wales to set up a

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Speaker 2: lab that could help resolve.

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Speaker 3: Some of these cases.

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Speaker 2: But I wasn't aware of any other state or territory

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Speaker 2: doing a similar initiative to tackle.

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Speaker 3: Their backlog of remains.

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Speaker 2: And I was pretty confident that forensic science was going

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Speaker 2: to be the key to resolving a lot of these remains.

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Speaker 2: And these remains, you know, in some cases were decades old,

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Speaker 2: dating back to the fifties, sixties, seventies. They'd been sitting

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Speaker 2: there for a very long time.

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Speaker 3: And obviously advancements in forensic.

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Speaker 2: Technology leaps bounds ahead in twenty eleven of what they

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Speaker 2: were when some of these remains were found.

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Speaker 3: You know, for example, DNA testing it didn't.

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Speaker 2: Start to be utilized until the nineteen nineties, so remains

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Speaker 2: found in the seventies, DNA testing was obviously not a consideration,

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Speaker 2: and so I took it upon myself to try and

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Speaker 2: research as much as I could about how large scale

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Speaker 2: DNA identification programs work in other parts of the world,

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Speaker 2: and then whether I could devise a set of recommendations

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Speaker 2: for us to be able to do something similar here

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Speaker 2: in Australia, because you know, we weren't talking about tens

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Speaker 2: of remains. We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of sets

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Speaker 2: of remains. The exact number of remains we didn't actually

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Speaker 2: know what they were at the time. So I applied

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Speaker 2: for a Churchill Fellowship in twenty fifteen and I was

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Speaker 2: awarded a fellowship to go overseas for a number of

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Speaker 2: weeks to visit world leading labs that were using DNA

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Speaker 2: to identify some paces tens of thousands of sets of remains.

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Speaker 4: You've done great things, Jody, So hats off to you

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Speaker 4: for doing all of that and recognizing that that's an

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Speaker 4: area that needs assistance.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, I guess in hindsight, the fellowship was

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Speaker 2: the easy bit, right like coming traveling the world and

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Speaker 2: you know, publishing some scientific papers on what I think

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Speaker 2: we need to do. But then came about five years

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Speaker 2: of campaigning and advocacy to try and get you know,

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Speaker 2: the decision makers to get on board with this concept

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Speaker 2: of a national Missing person's program, and that was no

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Speaker 2: easy feat. You know, some people questioned why we weren't

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Speaker 2: doing it already. Well, some people believe that we did

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Speaker 2: have mechanisms in place that would be able to you know,

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Speaker 2: connect these cases together. But that involved you know, trying

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Speaker 2: to meet with ministers, meeting with the AFP, doing media,

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Speaker 2: doing a ted talk, you know, writing papers, publishing articles online.

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Speaker 2: It was five years of hard work to get the

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Speaker 2: right people in the right room to get behind this,

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Speaker 2: and eventually, in about twenty nineteen, the National Missing Person's

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Speaker 2: Coordination Center did do that and together we applied for

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Speaker 2: a Proceeds of Crime funded project to get this off

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Speaker 2: the ground, and on our second attempt of that we

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Speaker 2: were successful and well awarded three point six million dollars

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Speaker 2: to establish this program in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: And I'm extremely.

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Speaker 2: Grateful for the federal government at the time for seeing

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Speaker 2: the value in a program like this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, one hundred percent. And so that was the Morrison

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Speaker 4: government at that time, and Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton

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Speaker 4: was there at the launch.

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Speaker 5: I remember we're.

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Speaker 4: All sitting in a closed room waiting for Peter Dutton

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Speaker 4: to arrive, and everyone was so nervous and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: he'll be right, he's.

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Speaker 5: Just a I'm sure he's a nice guy.

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Speaker 4: I think Peter always has this presence about him, because

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Speaker 4: he's quite a tall man and has a presence. But

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Speaker 4: I don't know if i'd ever told you this, just

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Speaker 4: as a side note. After I did the launch with

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Speaker 4: you guys, I went out for dinner a week later

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Speaker 4: here here, back here in Brisbane, and we were with

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Speaker 4: our friends and Peter Dutton was sitting at the table

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Speaker 4: across from I got up and I walked over to him,

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Speaker 4: and all his entourage stood up like who are you?

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Speaker 4: And Peter goes, it's okay, I know her. And he

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Speaker 4: said to me, I've got your mum's file on my desk.

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Speaker 4: And it was that week that my mum was actually

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Speaker 4: put on a yellow notice on inter Poll and I

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Speaker 4: was like, wow, I actually just felt like there was

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Speaker 4: a change in the in the wind for me and

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Speaker 4: that he had recognized he was such a nice person.

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Speaker 4: Like I remember he came up to me after I

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Speaker 4: did my speech and he said, do you talk often

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Speaker 4: in public speaking? I said no, not really, and he said, wow,

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Speaker 4: I'm really impressed, and I said, you didn't see my hands.

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Speaker 4: They were shaking like a leaf because we had so

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Speaker 4: many people sitting in front of us. But the now

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Speaker 4: retired AFP Commissioner Reese Kershaw was also there and this

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Speaker 4: space became a game changer in my opinion, in the

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Speaker 4: DNA space for helping to find the missing throughout Australia.

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Speaker 5: So I wanted to talk a little.

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Speaker 4: Bit about the funding and the work that you you

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Speaker 4: did collectively with obviously the AFP to get the necessary

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Speaker 4: funds approved. How expensive Jodie is a DNA testing process,

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Speaker 4: and why.

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Speaker 2: Sow The types of DNA testing obviously vary. We have

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Speaker 2: routine DNA tests and with those we're talking hundreds of dollars,

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Speaker 2: and then we have more specialized DNA tests that we

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Speaker 2: need to use to do things like forensic investigative genetic genealogy,

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Speaker 2: and for those type of tests we're talking thousands of

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Speaker 2: dollars per test. So we were awarded three point six

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Speaker 2: million dollars. The caveats with receiving proceeds of crime funding

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Speaker 2: is that it's one off funding. You know, it's for

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Speaker 2: a finite project. That's meant to have a start and

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Speaker 2: a finish. It can only go for a few years.

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Speaker 2: It really has to meet one of the criteria for

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Speaker 2: being awarded the funds.

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Speaker 3: So common Wealth agencies have.

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Speaker 2: To justify how their project is meeting a number of

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Speaker 2: goals of the federal government, and one of them was

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Speaker 2: around things like community safety and social justice, which you know,

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Speaker 2: our project fell in beautifully in my opinion. So we

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Speaker 2: had millions of dollars, right, But there was this whole

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Speaker 2: setup phase, trying to set up national program, trying to

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Speaker 2: set up a new laboratory, trying.

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Speaker 3: To engage with families. All of these tasks.

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Speaker 2: Were made so much more difficult and were so much

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Speaker 2: more protracted, I believe because of COVID nineteen restrictions, you know,

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Speaker 2: trying to get.

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Speaker 3: Equipment into the country.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of obstacles we had to navigate through.

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Speaker 3: But you know, the initial work took us a couple

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Speaker 3: of years.

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Speaker 2: You know, that involved us setting up a dedicated DNAIL

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Speaker 2: laboratory to process these bone samples. You know, they can't

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Speaker 2: be processed alongside routine crime samples. You know, they normally

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Speaker 2: have really low quality or quantity of DNA.

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Speaker 3: They can be.

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Speaker 2: Easily contaminated by external sources of DNA, and often the

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Speaker 2: methods are really manual.

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Speaker 3: We're kind of forensic biology labs.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you walked into one today, you would

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Speaker 2: see lots of robots around the room where where you know,

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Speaker 2: we're sticking a swab or a tape lift into a tube.

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Speaker 2: It goes on a robot and the DNA testing process predominantly.

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Speaker 3: Occurs on that robot.

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Speaker 2: But with these bone cases, no two bone cases are

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Speaker 2: the same, so they kind of require these customized sampling

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Speaker 2: and examination strategies. It's manual work, you know, grinding bones,

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Speaker 2: cleaning bones. So the types of expertise the scientists have

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Speaker 2: that do this kind of work, you often don't find

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Speaker 2: them in a routine DNA labs. So we had this

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Speaker 2: whole setup phase of building labs, engaging experts.

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Speaker 3: You know, our program.

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Speaker 2: Had DNA in the title, and it was one of

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Speaker 2: our primary modes of identification, but it wasn't the only

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Speaker 2: mode of identification that we offered. And often before you

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Speaker 2: get to DNA testing a set of remains, there's all

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Speaker 2: these other forensic techniques that need to occur prior to

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Speaker 2: you starting to destructively sample a set of remains, so

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Speaker 2: we needed to engage forensic anthropologists to examine the remains.

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Speaker 2: At the start, their role is to help us determine

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Speaker 2: the sex of those remains are, what someone's potential age was,

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Speaker 2: what their ancestry was, what their height was, potentially how

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Speaker 2: long they had been deceasedful before they were found. You know,

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Speaker 2: we have forensic dentists, so if any of our remains

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Speaker 2: have teeth present, we can chart those teeth and search

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Speaker 2: them against dental records. So for every long term is person,

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Speaker 2: you know, ideally we needed to have DNA reference samples.

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Speaker 2: We needed to know when they went missing, where they

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Speaker 2: went missing, what did they look like, what was their

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Speaker 2: physical appearance, you know, what condition were their teeth in,

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Speaker 2: Did they have any medical history which we might be

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Speaker 2: able to observe on their bones. You know that all

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Speaker 2: of this it's what we call anti mortem information. If

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Speaker 2: we have gaps in our system in that sense, you know,

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Speaker 2: if the identification effort becomes incredibly challenging or in some

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Speaker 2: cases impossible. So my second goal was to try and

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Speaker 2: populate the databases.

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Speaker 3: That we did have with as much data as.

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Speaker 2: We could for our unidentified and our missing.

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Speaker 3: So we could make those national databases as effective as.

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Speaker 2: Possible to link remains with missing people. So we have

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Speaker 2: two databases in Australia. We have the National Missing Persons

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Speaker 2: and Victim System. Now, this law enforcement database houses the

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Speaker 2: records for the unidentified remains and houses records for each

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Speaker 2: of our long term missing persons. So this is circumstantial

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Speaker 2: information where and when they were found, you know, what

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Speaker 2: was the physical appearance. The only forensic data that it

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Speaker 2: houses is dental records. So when a long term missing

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Speaker 2: person is reported missing, ideally someone's out there collecting dental

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Speaker 2: records from that person's dentist. Those dental charts can be

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Speaker 2: uploaded to this national database. So then when we get

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Speaker 2: our forensic dentists to examine a set of remains where

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Speaker 2: there are teeth present, that dental chart gets uploaded and

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Speaker 2: what you want to see happen is obviously a link

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Speaker 2: between the remains dental records and those of a long

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Speaker 2: term missing person, and that process, you know, once those

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Speaker 2: records are in hand, can be really effective and quick,

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Speaker 2: and many jurisdictions will use a dental record search as

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Speaker 2: kind of the first type of search using forensic data.

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Speaker 2: Failing any matches, then they will then think about proceeding

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Speaker 2: with DNA testing. So our goal was get as much

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Speaker 2: data in there, upload as many dental records as we

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Speaker 2: could find, and then our second national database is our

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Speaker 2: national DNA database.

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Speaker 3: Now this is a law enforcement database.

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Speaker 2: It now has capacity to house DNA profiles from unidentified

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Speaker 2: human remains DNA profiles from the missing persons themselves, so

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Speaker 2: this is known as a direct reference sample.

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Speaker 4: And coincidentally, at the time that that was all churning,

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Speaker 4: I guess New South Wales Missing Persons units started promoting

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Speaker 4: for any individuals who had a DNA connection to a

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Speaker 4: missing person to please come forward and offer their DNA

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Speaker 4: to New South Wales police for testing against the three

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Speaker 4: hundred and seventy one unidentified human remains that were currently

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Speaker 4: at that time sitting in New South Wales. They set

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Speaker 4: up tents all over northern New South Wales allowing any

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Speaker 4: to come forward and give their DNA in the hope

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Speaker 4: that profiles could be made and run against those unidentified remains.

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Speaker 4: After I got back from Canberra, I was actually at

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Speaker 4: the juncture in my mum's case where I was still

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Speaker 4: chasing up my own DNA through New South Wales Missing

303
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Speaker 4: Persons Unit asking them to put it in writing that

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Speaker 4: the correct DNA profile had been uploaded to the national database.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't told, and it wasn't clear if I had

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Speaker 4: my DNA on the database or not, and they said

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Speaker 4: to me the information on their site wasn't clear, so

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Speaker 4: they'd have to come back to me. The coroner at

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Speaker 4: my mum's findings did note that my DNA was now

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Speaker 4: on the database, but I still don't have anything in

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Speaker 4: writing to confirm that. And I'm someone now who's driven

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Speaker 4: by having everything in writing, so I'm satisfied to know

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Speaker 4: that it is actually done. But this all sort of

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Speaker 4: came about, and my questioning of this came about from

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Speaker 4: someone who has a missing person. I gave my DNA

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Speaker 4: sample to buy and Bay Police in January of twenty ten.

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Speaker 4: That was thirteen years after my mum went missing, but

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Speaker 4: it was only a voluntary sample. Can you explain for

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Speaker 4: everyone listening, what are the different ways DNA is used.

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Speaker 5: For testing, i e.

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Speaker 4: The different types of tests and what they are used

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Speaker 4: for and how, Because this is something that I still

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Speaker 4: try to get my head around.

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Speaker 5: You're the expert. Can you explain it a little bit better.

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Speaker 2: So we obviously request that relatives with a misloved one

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Speaker 2: provide us with a DNA reference sample. Now we only

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Speaker 2: need one DNA reference sample. But what we can do

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Speaker 2: with that DNA once it's extracted from the sample is

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Speaker 2: use a suite of DNA tools to be able to

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Speaker 2: identify a set of remains.

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Speaker 3: And there's different types of DNA that we.

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Speaker 2: Target, and that often depends on what your relationship ship

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Speaker 2: is to the missing person. So the three main types

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Speaker 2: of DNA that we target. The first one is autosomal DNA,

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Speaker 2: and that's DNA that we inherit from both our mother

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Speaker 2: and our father. So you say, as a mother, would

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Speaker 2: pass on half of your DNA to your children, and

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Speaker 2: your partner would also pass on half of his DNA

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Speaker 2: to the children. The next type of test is known

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Speaker 2: as a Y chromosome DNA test. And if you remember

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Speaker 2: back to biology, males have an X and a Y chromosome.

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Speaker 2: Females we only have an X and we have two

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Speaker 2: of them. So if we target Y chromosome DNA, that's

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Speaker 2: us targeting male only DNA. Now that can be super

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Speaker 2: helpful when we have a male that is missing. We

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Speaker 2: can then target any male on his paternal line, So

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Speaker 2: a father, a grandfather, anyone in that extended family of

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Speaker 2: the missing person that's related paternally could come forward and

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Speaker 2: provide us with a DNA reference sample, because unlike utozomal DNA,

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Speaker 2: which is unique, so we can uniquely identify someone based

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Speaker 2: on their utosomal DNA, with Y chromosome DNA, a missing

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Speaker 2: person inherits the same Y profile as their father has,

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Speaker 2: as their grandfather has. So we can't use Y chromosome

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Speaker 2: DNA to individualize someone or a set of remains, but

355
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Speaker 2: we can use it to link them to a paternal line,

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Speaker 2: which can be very informative, especially given the passage of

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Speaker 2: time with some of these cases where you don't have

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Speaker 2: close relatives still alive.

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00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 3: You know, you don't have a mum and dad, but

360
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Speaker 3: you might.

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00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 2: Have a paternal nephew that could come forward and provide

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Speaker 2: a DNA reference.

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00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 4: So to say, like would a brother give the same connection?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, Okay, So in tragic circumstances where you might

365
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 2: have multiple siblings that have died or have gone missing,

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Speaker 2: and you know, this is really kind of pertinent for

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Speaker 2: me at the moment when you're thinking about that mother

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Speaker 2: and baby institution in Ireland, we're in some cases, you know,

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Speaker 2: siblings died and potentially we're buried at that institution. There's

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Speaker 2: going to be no way that we're going to be

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Speaker 2: able to individualize sibling remains. And you know, in hand

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Speaker 2: back to a family a set of remains saying this

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Speaker 2: was individual A, and set of remains saying this is

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Speaker 2: individual B. We can only tell them these are your relatives.

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Speaker 2: They are linked, whether it's paternally or maternally related as well,

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Speaker 2: we can't individualize them.

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Speaker 3: But in some.

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Speaker 2: Cases, you know, that's the only type of DNA testing

379
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,360
Speaker 2: we might be able to use, and that's especially relevant

380
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Speaker 2: for the last form of DNA testing, which is mitochondrial

381
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Speaker 2: DNA testing. This is DNA testing that which looks at

382
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 2: the maternal line. So a mother would pass on her

383
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Speaker 2: mitochondrial DNA profile both her male and her female children,

384
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Speaker 2: but it's only her female children which will then pass

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Speaker 2: it on to her children and so forth.

386
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Speaker 3: So anyone in a maternal line of a missing.

387
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 2: Person mum, grandma, maternal anie, maternal niece can also provide

388
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 2: us with a mitochondrial DNA reference sample which can be informative.

389
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 2: Now one of the most valuable things about mitochondrial DNA

390
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Speaker 2: is that it is present in a higher copy number

391
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Speaker 2: than ordozomeal DNA in a set of remains. So if

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Speaker 2: ordozomal DNA is two degraded that we can no longer

393
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: get an ordozomal DNA profile, we would then consider you

394
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Speaker 2: as one of our only other options is to try

395
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Speaker 2: mitochondrial DNA testing in the hope of getting a mitochondrial

396
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 2: DNA profile. And we often see that's the case if

397
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 2: we have super challenging, super compromised.

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Speaker 3: That of remains.

399
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 2: And we're going to remember that DNA evidence is only

400
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: one piece of the puzzle. The investigator is a pulling

401
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 2: together all the other circumstantial information to link an unidentified

402
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,959
Speaker 2: a missing person. It may be a combination of dental

403
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 2: records and DNA data.

404
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 3: You know, it's very rarely DNA.

405
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: Alone and often and this is the approach we took

406
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 2: with our national program, is.

407
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: That we will often use two.

408
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: Forms of DNA testing to confirm an identification. So you know,

409
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 2: ortozomal and why testing if we have a male set

410
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 2: of remains, or autozomal and mitochondrial DNA testing if our

411
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: remains a female. And this is really exciting because there's

412
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 2: many cases where we don't have suitable relatives left anymore

413
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: for these older cases, whether that's you know, because unfortunately

414
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 2: they may have already passed away because they potentially may

415
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 2: not be willing to provide DNA reference samples to police.

416
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: You know, there's kind of lots of re reasons why

417
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,959
Speaker 2: this might be a case. So being able to target

418
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: more distant relatives, or to target different kinds of databases

419
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 2: that potentially house distant relatives gives us a whole new

420
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 2: scope to be able to try and resolve these cases

421
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 2: that we've never had before.

422
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 4: If we look at Mum's case as an example, obviously

423
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 4: it would have been beneficial to have had DNA from

424
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 4: her mum and her dad. Knowing what you've just told me,

425
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 4: and there's bread and butter there for that type of

426
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 4: DNA testing. I think at this point I'm the only

427
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 4: one who has given DNA. Would it be suggestive that

428
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 4: I go to my mum's sisters and say, could you

429
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 4: give DNA as well?

430
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 5: Would that be helpful in the event.

431
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 4: That my mum's remains are found, saying twenty thirty forty

432
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 4: years time, they've got two profiles that they can link together.

433
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 4: Would that be something that you would suggest.

434
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 2: The golden trio is kind of definitely, you know, mom, dad,

435
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 2: and children because there is kind of only one generation

436
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: between the missing person and that individual, and so we

437
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 2: know that, you know, there's going to be a sharing

438
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: of fifty percent of the DNA. The thing with siblings,

439
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: they can be a bit of a mixed bag actually,

440
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 2: because the way DNA is inherited. You know, we do

441
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: get fifty percent of our DNA from Mum and fifty

442
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: percent of the DNA from Dad, but I will get

443
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 2: a different combination of DNA to what my sister will.

444
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: DNA as it's inherited gets jumbled up. Some of it

445
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 2: goes to the sister and some of it goes to

446
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 2: the brother. What you can find is sometimes siblings share

447
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 2: a lot of DNA and sometimes they can share very

448
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: little DNA. Interesting and so we always say with siblings,

449
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: you know, the more the better. So there are multiple siblings,

450
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 2: we'd like to collect DNA from as many of those

451
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 2: siblings that would be willing to do that. So in

452
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 2: your case, you know, you are a perfect type of

453
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: sample that we could have on file. And because you

454
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 2: are a daughter, we have autosomal DNA that could be linked,

455
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 2: we have mitochondrial DNA that could be linked.

456
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 4: In this space, Jody, I'm finding myself now talking to

457
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 4: a lot of people who are living with a missing

458
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 4: loved one, and I do find it super frustrating to

459
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 4: know that most of these people have never been asked

460
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 4: to give their DNA, or they have, but they have

461
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 4: no idea if the sample has been uploaded onto the database.

462
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 4: And just going back, I think my understanding of the

463
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 4: voluntary sample, which is what they told me at the

464
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 4: Missing Persons unit in your South Wales, was when I

465
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 4: questioned it, they said we can't upload a voluntary sample

466
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 4: because I hadn't signed documents or I hadn't signed their

467
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 4: proper paperwork for that sample to be tested at the

468
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 4: next level.

469
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 5: I know you've told me as well.

470
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 4: You know, we've got people rocking up to police stations

471
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 4: and they're getting turned away if they try to give

472
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 4: their DNA in some cases because the police don't think

473
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 4: it's relevant or I can't answer how they work that.

474
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 4: But it's really good to know that there is this

475
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 4: new snip in place and it actually widens the net,

476
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 4: if you like, for capturing more families, and I would

477
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 4: encourage anybody who has a missing person, even if you

478
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 4: don't know if their DNA has been recorded for that

479
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 4: person who's missing. I do think it's definitely a very

480
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 4: important conversation to have days of ticking.

481
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 5: Past, right.

482
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 4: So I was talking to the sister of brom and

483
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 4: Winfield yesterday, Kim Marshall. Bromwin has been missing for you know,

484
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,239
Speaker 4: eleven thousand odd days. Time is of the essence and

485
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 4: we need to help you guys do your work by

486
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 4: being mindful that you know, we need to push the

487
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 4: envelope on this in the missing space.

488
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: And as mentioned before, you know we can't identify these

489
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: remains without family reference samples.

490
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 3: You know, we rely on that.

491
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: So you know, when families provide one of these samples,

492
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 2: they do have to sign a consent form and they

493
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: should be asking those types of questions around what category

494
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 2: of sample is my sample being collected under? What does

495
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: that enable that sample to do? In terms of you know,

496
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: what databases is it sitting. Can it be searched on

497
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: the local database in that particular state, Can it be

498
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: searched on the national DNA database? You know, I want

499
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 2: it to be searched against every set of unidentified human

500
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 2: remains which is currently sitting on our national DNA database.

501
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 3: And I think it's.

502
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 2: Important to mention sow in your particular context, you know,

503
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: where there is this potential international connection. You know. The

504
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: other thing I want families to be aware of is

505
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: that we do have international DNA databases.

506
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 3: You know.

507
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: One of those is the Interpol DNA database. They now

508
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: have a new database a few years ago that got

509
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: established that does allow family members' DNA profiles to be

510
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: searched against any unidentified human remains DNA profiles they now

511
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: have sitting on this international DNA data. That sample has

512
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: to be collected and processed under the guidance of police

513
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: and under the forensic prostigious legislation. But if there is

514
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: some kind of international connection, I would encourage family members

515
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: to talk about that with the officer in charge of

516
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: their case, because there may be reason that their DNA

517
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: should be sitting on the international DNA database if they believe,

518
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: you know, their loved one might be missing.

519
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 5: And it might not be.

520
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 4: So maybe that is a good thing to bring awareness

521
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 4: to in this space for anyone listening exactly.

522
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 3: And I think controversially a couple of years ago.

523
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: As part of our program, I recommended if you are

524
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: aware of a missed family member, you should be providing

525
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 2: your DNA.

526
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 3: Reference sample to police.

527
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: And we do hope that police are collecting those reference

528
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: samples for families that have a genuine concern about the

529
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: safety and welfare of their misloved one, especially if they

530
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: haven't seen them in decades, because what I've seen is

531
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: that many of the people that we identified were never

532
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: reported missing to police, but it didn't come as a

533
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: surprise to those families because they hadn't seen their loved

534
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: one for decades. Sometimes there was you know, a mental

535
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: health issue where they often thought, okay, well, we just

536
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: assumed that they had turned into a bit of a recluse,

537
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 2: they were strange from the family. So in many cases,

538
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: as sad as it is, and it breaks my heart

539
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: because when you identify someone, it's not normally a feel

540
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: good story that you're revealing. It's often where identifying people

541
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: that were never missed.

542
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 3: And so for those families.

543
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 2: Which are missing someone, which are going to the effort

544
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 2: of coming forward and wanting to provide a DNA reference,

545
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: we should be bloody collecting those samples.

546
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 3: And I say to families.

547
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: That if that happens to you, if you're in a

548
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: situation where you are not sure if you have a

549
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: misloved one in your family, there's still things that the

550
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: broader Australian public can do to help us. There's now

551
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: technology that allows us to link to distant relatives, so distant,

552
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: you know, if we're talking third cousins. You often even

553
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: don't know who your second and third cousins are, but

554
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: we can link an unknown deceased person to them using

555
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: this new forensic investigative genetic genealogy technology.

556
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 3: So my recommendation a couple of years ago, and i.

557
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: Still hasn't changed, was that if you're being turned away

558
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: by police, there is something you can do, and that is,

559
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: you know, if you have taken one of these direct

560
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: to consumer forensic tests, you know, something like Ancestry DNA

561
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: or twenty three in meters, they can download their DNA

562
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: data file and upload it to a DNA database that

563
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: we can use, you know, as law enforcement or forensic

564
00:32:53,600 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 2: agencies to try and link unidentified remains to relatives that

565
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: exist on these databases. One of those databases is jed match,

566
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: that's ged match. A family member can download their ancestry

567
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: DNA profile if they've already taken a test, upload it

568
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: to jed match and.

569
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 3: Their DNA profile will now be searched.

570
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: Every time a set of unidentified human remains is uploaded

571
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: to this database, you know, by police or by a

572
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 2: forensic lab trying to identify this person. That can give

573
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: some comfort to families knowing that they have taken some

574
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: action that if their loved ones remains were eventually subjected

575
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 2: to a forensic investigator genealogy test, it would link.

576
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 4: And look, you know, the sad reality is the current

577
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: stats are that you know, reality is there's fifty odd

578
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 4: thousand people going missing in Australia now every year. I

579
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 4: was sad to know that, even in your testing, that

580
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 4: some of those people and some of those that you

581
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 4: identified hadn't been recorded as missing. You know, I think

582
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 4: back to my mum's situation. If I hadn't have pushed

583
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 4: the envelope and I hadn't pursued going down that route,

584
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 4: my mum probably would have fallen into that same category

585
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 4: if it was left up to the family, because the

586
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 4: family believed what the police had told them that my

587
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 4: mum chose to disappear and therefore they believed that. But

588
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,439
Speaker 4: she is in actual fact a missing person. And as

589
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 4: it was, she wasn't actually recognized as missing in Australia

590
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 4: on any database until twenty two years after the fact.

591
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 4: So there's all those twenty two years before that I

592
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 4: think about where bones have been located or found, and

593
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 4: there was no testing done because one, I didn't give

594
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 4: my DNA for thirteen years. Two it was a voluntary sample.

595
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 4: I didn't sign anything or have any push. Uh. It's

596
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 4: just a rippling sort of effect for me under the

597
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 4: water that we can try and make a change and

598
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 4: try and make a difference. And part of the reason

599
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 4: why I wanted to have you on because I think

600
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 4: this is such a big way forward in identifying these people. So, Jody,

601
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 4: in another interview, I heard you talking about things like

602
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 4: baby teeth and snippets of baby hair from a baby

603
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 4: book and providing information about the missing person's dentists and

604
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 4: doctors and X rays if you had them, what would

605
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 4: you suggest to be the best way forward with those

606
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 4: sorts of things And if you do have them.

607
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, And as we chated about before, you know, DNA

608
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 2: testing is just one tool, so we can you know

609
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: when we're examining a set of remains. We're examining every

610
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: bone to kind of look for clues about who that

611
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 2: person was when they were living, so you know, what

612
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: condition their teeth were in, whether they've had any dental

613
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: work done. You know, we've had remains that have been

614
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 2: found with full sets of dentures. We look for broken bones,

615
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 2: we look for surgical implants. They can be super helpful

616
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 2: because often they will come with a serial number. So

617
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: all of that information we want to be able to

618
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 2: compare to equivalent information we can learn about the missing person,

619
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: and often it's the families that have all that information,

620
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 2: which is why it's so critical for us to engage

621
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: with families as soon as possible once someone is reported missing.

622
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: We don't want to miss out on opportunities to be

623
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 2: collecting this kind of vital information upfront. Today, one would

624
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 2: hope that if someone is reported missing, police are collecting

625
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 2: samples and records about that missing person that can be

626
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 2: used to be compared to a set of remains. But

627
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: in some cases, we have remains which are decades old,

628
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: so there's no longer a toothbrush which can be collected

629
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: from someone's home. That's when we're relying sal on things

630
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 2: like what other samples does someone potentially have at home

631
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 2: that we could try and get a DNA reference sample

632
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 2: from for that person, And we would much prefer to

633
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: compare a DNA profile from the miss person with a

634
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 2: set of remains, because you know, in that way we're

635
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 2: comparing apples with apples, they should have identical DNA profiles,

636
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 2: So it can be a lot more powerful than us

637
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: having to rely on a comparison with relative DNA samples,

638
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: because in that scenario we're comparing apples with oranges. You know,

639
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 2: the DNA profiles aren't identical, they're similar, and so we

640
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: have to then apply you know, statistical waiting and use

641
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: the right relatives and the right number of relatives to

642
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 2: have confidence we are able to infer that that particular

643
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: deceased person is their family member.

644
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 3: This doesn't come without controversy.

645
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 2: There's a lot of chat around the ethics of accessing

646
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: samples designed for genetic testing for a forensic identification.

647
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 3: I mean, I've got a very strong.

648
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: Opinion about that, But they can be an amazing source

649
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 2: of DNA if the legislation permits them to be used

650
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: for identification purposes. So medical specimens, biological specimens stored at

651
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 2: home as baby teeth, person of effects. Sometimes family members

652
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 2: have shoes, clothing, hats, might be glasses or hearing aids

653
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: of that individual still stored at home, so you are

654
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 2: extracting all the DNA that's on that item, which offer

655
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 2: can result in a mixed DNA profile. So my goal

656
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 2: over the decade prior to the program was to establish

657
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: a national missing person's program which leveled the playing field.

658
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 2: My goal was to ensure that every set of unidentified

659
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: him remains in Australia had an equal opportunity to be

660
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 2: forensically examined and tested, so they had an equal chance

661
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 2: of being identified. I believed we could achieve this by

662
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 2: centralizing the right forensic experts, using the right forensic techniques,

663
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: and importantly, you know, having the right forensic resources to

664
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: be able to ensure any and all of the backlogged

665
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 2: human remains could potentially come to.

666
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 3: This specialist facility for testing.

667
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 2: So by doing that, we were able to receive around

668
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 2: ninety nine sets of unidentified human remains from a number

669
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 2: of jurisdictions across Australia. Many of those remains were subjected

670
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 2: to a suite of forensic testing tools, so not only

671
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: DNA testing, but forensic anthropology, radiocarbon dating, crane or facial reconstructions.

672
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: Of those ninety nine fifty four cases were able to

673
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: be resolved, we had twenty one of those fifty four

674
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 2: sets of remains were able to be linked to nineteen

675
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 2: long term missing persons, So in two of those cases

676
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 2: we had multiple remains that we were able to link.

677
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 2: So nineteen long term missing persons cases were able to

678
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 2: be resolved because they had been sitting on a shelf

679
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 2: somewhere and the jurisdiction submitted those for forensic testing.

680
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 4: That's amazing, and that's nineteen families who know an answer.

681
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 4: I struggle with this space a little bit because you know,

682
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 4: every time you hear the bones have been found, I

683
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 4: always take a gasp and think, oh my god, I

684
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 4: wonder if that's mum. I probably don't even have the

685
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 4: right words to work out how that would feel for

686
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 4: those families. But amazing that you have been able to

687
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 4: achieve that, I think, because that's just awesome in my opinion, and.

688
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: I think, you know, on more than one occasion people

689
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: would say to me, surely, surely there's no long term

690
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: missing people among those, mainly we demonstrated that at least

691
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 2: a quarter of the ones we received were and you know,

692
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 2: like not all of them were able to be publicly announced,

693
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 2: but you know a few of them were, and if

694
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 2: we could kind of talk about, you know, a couple

695
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: of those, like our first identification was a gentleman Mario

696
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: Della Torre, and his remains were found in nineteen seventy

697
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 2: seven in Australia. So we were extremely excited because I

698
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,959
Speaker 2: was scared we wouldn't identify anyone. And you know, South

699
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: Australia were amazing to work with. We worked with them

700
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 2: on a number of their unidentified remains cases, so you know,

701
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: I was really stoked that it was one of their

702
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: cases that we were able to resolve first. And Mario's

703
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 2: family were so grateful for that identification after fifty odd

704
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 2: years of him being missing. You know. The other publicly

705
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 2: announced IDs were our two identifications that we identified using

706
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 2: forensic investigative genetic genealogy. This technique wasn't available in Australia before,

707
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: and we had created this kind of end to end

708
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: capability that allowed.

709
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 3: Us to offer it locally.

710
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 2: So we identified a gentleman known as William Hardy. His

711
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 2: remains were found in nineteen eighty three on Kangaroo Island.

712
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 2: You know, we worked with South Australia Police to try

713
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 2: everything for this case. We tried all of the types

714
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 2: of DNA testing and it wasn't until we had exhausted

715
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: all those routine types of testing that we tried forensic

716
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 2: investigive genealogy. In a matter of weeks, we were able

717
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: to resolve this case.

718
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 3: We were able to confirm the identification.

719
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 2: By linking it to a living brother and it was

720
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: the only brother that was still alive. And I think

721
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: that also emphasizes when we talk about the importance of

722
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 2: time for these cases. If he had died, there may

723
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 2: not have been a suitable living relative available to provide

724
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: a confirmatory reference sample. Not to mention that every day

725
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: these remains sit on a shelf, the DNA is degrading,

726
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: so there will become a time where as sensitive as

727
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: the DNA techniques are, for some, you know, it might

728
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 2: be too late. The whole team and the South Australia

729
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: Police were so excited that this new technique was able

730
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 2: to identify a case that they had. You know, essentially

731
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: we had essentially given up hope on and then in

732
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 2: a matter of days, after identifying William Hardy, were able

733
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 2: to resolve the case.

734
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 3: Of Tanya Glover.

735
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: You know, Tanya's remains were found under an apartment block in.

736
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:20,479
Speaker 5: Bristol on the wall.

737
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 4: And I remember that extremely well because again you have

738
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 4: that moment as a person who's in this space going

739
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 4: could that be my mum who they've identified? She had

740
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 4: dark hair, she had glasses like there was things that

741
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 4: they were able to put out into the media. And

742
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 4: I don't know if you know, but there's a lady

743
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 4: in her name's Donna. She actually was the person who

744
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 4: had given her DNA because she was trying to find

745
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 4: her dad, and that DNA was what actually helped identify

746
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 4: who Tanya was. It goes to show you as well

747
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 4: when that's another case where someone was looking for somebody

748
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 4: else with their DNA and it actually helped solve another case.

749
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: Citizen science at its best. You know, donnand wasn't aware

750
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: that she had a missing relative because we could connect,

751
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 2: you know, to Donna's relatives.

752
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 3: Which were quite distant. You know, they had linked back

753
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 3: to these set of.

754
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: Remains, which was one step in this process of us

755
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 2: getting closer to determining Tenure's identity. You know, for me personally,

756
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 2: we put so much effort into bringing that capability online

757
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 2: and here we had both an active and a cold

758
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: case resolved in a matter of days that I truly

759
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,479
Speaker 2: believe would not have been able to be resolved any

760
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 2: other way because of the gaps that we have in

761
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 2: the system to day. And just lastly, if I could

762
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: mention our oldest case that we identified, I guess wasn't

763
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: your routine, typical missing person's.

764
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 3: Case, but it was our unknown sailor.

765
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 2: So the Royal Australian Navy entrusted us to help identify

766
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 2: a sailor who was the only set of remains which

767
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: were found after the sinking of HHMA Sydney two in

768
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 2: nineteen forty one, when his life raft floated ashore of

769
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 2: Christmas Island, and so he had remained unidentified for nearly

770
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 2: eighty years, and it wasn't because you know, until the

771
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 2: advances of DNA testing that we were able to help

772
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: identify him. So it's not just about identifying people that

773
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 2: are associated with a law enforcement case or a criminal case.

774
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 2: There's all these other kind of humanitarian benefits of a

775
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 2: supplying these techniques. You know, whether it's mother and baby institutions,

776
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's residential schools with people buried at

777
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 2: the back in our mark graves, former asylums. There's so

778
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 2: many applications of this technology which can bring you know,

779
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 2: answers for many you know, I mentioned fifty four cases

780
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: were resolved. Twenty one sets of remains were linked to

781
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 2: nineteen long term missing persons, so that leaves us with

782
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: thirty three other cases that we resolved.

783
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 3: Now.

784
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 2: Of those, some of those remains were scientifically identified as

785
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 2: being the ancestral remains of a First Nations person, so

786
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 2: they can be repatriated back to country using existing mechanisms.

787
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: Some of those remains were determined to be historical remains,

788
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 2: so it remains that weren't ancestral remains, but we're older

789
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 2: than one hundred years and so don't fall under the

790
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 2: remit of the coroner. So these could be older European remains,

791
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: and this Australia is a relatively young country in that sense,

792
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: so we can find remains which are kind of between

793
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 2: that one hundred and three hundred year mark.

794
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 3: They're important for us because.

795
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 2: We're trying to determine if they are likely European or

796
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 2: are they likely to be those of an Aboriginal tour

797
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 2: Australia lander person, so they can be managed culturally appropriately.

798
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 2: We hads which were considered artifact.

799
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 3: Remains, so these can be.

800
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 2: Things like trophy skoals, which some people like to collect

801
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 2: specimens like this, especially overseas, and then bring them back

802
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 2: into the country and often they will be caught at customs.

803
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 2: So it's still the role of the police to ensure

804
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 2: that those remains can be scientifically determined to not be

805
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 2: of relevance to the coroner and should be investigated as

806
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 2: part of a missing person's investigation. We also had some

807
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: non human samples in there, so they can often exhibit

808
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 2: similar features to human bones, so if they've been sitting

809
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: on the shelf again for decades, it just takes a

810
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: new forensic examination for us to be able to close

811
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 2: those cases. And so the last category of remains were

812
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: these anatomical or medical specimens. Now, in the cases that

813
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 2: we worked on, these were samples. In some cases they

814
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,919
Speaker 2: were whole skeletons, in some cases they weren't complete skeletons

815
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: that had.

816
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,240
Speaker 3: Been in some cases handed.

817
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 2: In from family members Grandpa might have passed away. Grandpa

818
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 2: might have been a medical practitioner, and as part of

819
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 2: their training, they would kind of import these medical specimens

820
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 2: as part of their training. In other cases, it may

821
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 2: not be that obvious that they're medical specimens. So again,

822
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 2: a forensic anthropologist then comes as part of that process

823
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: and examines those remains to look for features that they might.

824
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 3: Be able to infer the origin of that specimen.

825
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 2: I guess we kind of don't want to overlook any

826
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 2: type of sample. You know, some of these have been

827
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: sitting on the shelf for a very long time, and

828
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 2: all of them were subjected to the same initial forensic

829
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 2: examination and that was part.

830
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 3: Of the program. I feel like this was kind of

831
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 3: like a.

832
00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 2: Silent achievement because there is so much focus on us

833
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 2: linking to missing people, and rightly so, right, but we

834
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 2: also have thirty three other cases that have been resolved.

835
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 4: Obviously, what you're doing now is costing a lot of

836
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 4: money to get that up and running on your own.

837
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,479
Speaker 4: So what sort of funding or do you have any

838
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 4: funding to help you and support in that area.

839
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 2: So I've found a forensic human identification company as a

840
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 2: social enterprise set up in a similar way to what

841
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 2: the National DNA program was. You know, I wanted to

842
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:36,760
Speaker 2: create this specialized capability only dedicated to unidentified human remains

843
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 2: so they could be prioritized, you know, they didn't have

844
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 2: to slip to the bottom of a list alongside other

845
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: criminal samples and things.

846
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 3: So at this stage we.

847
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 2: Are self funded, which means, you know, we have to

848
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 2: take a slow and steady approach with this, and we've

849
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 2: been able to form some really impactful partnerships with the

850
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 2: Ustream Center for Ancient DNA Anna Luise Cokeley of Genetic

851
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 2: Genealogy to allow us this year to pilot some brand

852
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 2: new forensic technology for forensic investigative genetic genealogy. So this

853
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 2: is testing not currently available in Australia and it's through

854
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 2: their generosity that we were able to test you know,

855
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 2: this brand new technology on a number of unidentified humans

856
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: remains cases which has worked really successfully and we do

857
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 2: hope we can talk about those impactful results, you know,

858
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 2: in the coming months.

859
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 3: But you know, as a social enterprise, it is.

860
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 2: Meant to be a sustainable business, right that's my goal

861
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 2: that it pays for itself. But like with any new business,

862
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: new enterprise, there's this ramp up phase. And obviously the

863
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 2: more resources we have, the more impact we can have.

864
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 2: So you know, I'm never going to say no if

865
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 2: someone would like to donate, But you know, if there

866
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 2: are people out there realistically wondering how they could get

867
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 2: behind you know, this kind of impact initiative, you know,

868
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: I'd like to put the call out to companies and

869
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 2: industry and vendors that are looking to get behind something

870
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 2: like this, you know, as part of their corporate social responsibilities.

871
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 2: You know, I can guarantee them a social return on

872
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 2: investment like no other, you know, like dignity for the deceased,

873
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 2: answers for families, justice for victims, cold cases solved, a

874
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:33,919
Speaker 2: safer community for all because we can also remove offenders

875
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 2: of crimes from our community as well. So, you know,

876
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: as an example, ten thousand dollars, you know, that's the

877
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 2: cost of forensic investigative genetic genealogy. So for every ten

878
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 2: thousand dollars that would enable us to perform forensic investigive

879
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 2: genetic genealogy on one set of unidentified remains, and based

880
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: on our experience, we have a very good success rate.

881
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 4: I back you one hundred pc and I hope that

882
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 4: anyone listening will share this podcast far and wide because

883
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,800
Speaker 4: there are people out there who are looking to help

884
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,919
Speaker 4: and use their good money in a good space. And

885
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 4: from someone in my position where I have a missing person,

886
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 4: I'm eternally grateful for everything you're doing, Jodie, because I

887
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 4: have hope, which is what we all hold on to,

888
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 4: that one day you might be able to bring my

889
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 4: mum back to me. I have all my faith in

890
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 4: what you're doing, and I think you're a really awesome

891
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 4: human and I know everyone listening is going to say

892
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 4: the same. Tell me your thoughts, Joed on the privilege

893
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 4: you describe being able to return a loved one's remains

894
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:45,720
Speaker 4: to their family.

895
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 3: We know we have remained sitting on institutional shelves.

896
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 2: In some cases they're in unmarked graves and they've been

897
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 2: there for a very long time.

898
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,760
Speaker 3: Selling your case, a coroner has determined.

899
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 2: Your loved one ceased, but you don't have a set

900
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 2: of remains to be able to confirm that. So you're

901
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 2: left in this limbo wondering the fate or the whereabouts

902
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 2: of your mother, whether she's.

903
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 3: Still alive or not.

904
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 2: And for me, it's about getting the family those answers

905
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 2: because whilst we still have hundreds of sets of remains.

906
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 3: Sitting in for forensic facilities around.

907
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: The country, we can't hand on heart tell you so

908
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 2: that your mum is not sitting in a box on

909
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 2: a shelf. And I don't understand as a society how

910
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 2: this is allowed to happen. And so for me, you know,

911
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 2: I'm I'm willing to dedicate the next decade of my

912
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:52,760
Speaker 2: life to keeping these conversations going, you know, to keep

913
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 2: finding for funding, to keep convincing people to collaborate with us.

914
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 2: You know, we can provide answers for these boxes of bones,

915
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 2: but we need people to want to work with us.

916
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 2: I don't think we can underestimate the impact of being

917
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 2: able to provide a family with a set of remains.

918
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 2: You know, there's been multiple occasions where I have seen

919
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 2: the true extent of that, you know, whether that is

920
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 2: a family being able to have the remains back, they

921
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 2: need to be able to see their loved one, feel

922
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 2: their loved one.

923
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 3: And this thing that is stuck with me for a

924
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 3: number of years now is you.

925
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 2: Know, I was involved with the de identification of victims

926
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 2: of a mass disaster. So this was a light airplane

927
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 2: crash as you can imagine a plane crash, is there's fire,

928
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 2: those remains no longer resemble what that person looked like

929
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 2: in life. And when a family member wants to see

930
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: those remains, you know, the mortuary will normally have beautiful

931
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: counselors there that will try and prepare the family for

932
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 2: what they're going to see, and some people will choose

933
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 2: not to see those remains. I still remember that the

934
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 2: partner of you know, one of these victims, she was

935
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 2: adamant that she needed to see the remains, and you know,

936
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 2: unfortunately we only had the top half of him, and

937
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 2: all she wanted to do was see his teeth because

938
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 2: then she would know that it was him. It breaks

939
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 2: my heart because you know, I don't think someone tried

940
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 2: to tell her that that wasn't a good idea for

941
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 2: her to go and view those remains, because you know,

942
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 2: that shouldn't be the last thing that she needs to

943
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 2: see or remember that that individual you're from.

944
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 3: But for her, that's what she needed.

945
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 2: She couldn't walk away without physical confirmation that that was

946
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 2: her loved one. So you know, I think we owe

947
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 2: it to every family of a missing person to get

948
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 2: onto those bones. So you know, sal so other people

949
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 2: in your situation know, is my loved one sitting there

950
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 2: on a box, And why the hell are they when

951
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 2: we have techniques and scientists that can provide you with answers. So,

952
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just compel the people that have these

953
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 2: remains to work with us, partner with us.

954
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 5: It's probably all a bit raw for me.

955
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 4: My dad's actually being cremated today, but I got to

956
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 4: see him, Jode, I got to see him. I understand

957
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 4: that same with my brother when he passed away. All

958
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 4: I wanted to see him and was to make sure

959
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 4: he was okay. You know, obviously he's not okay because

960
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 4: he's deceased, But in my head I just kept saying,

961
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 4: I need to make sure he's all right. And it's

962
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:09,360
Speaker 4: been hard for me this week. My dad died last Thursday,

963
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 4: but I know, I know what happened to him, and

964
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,359
Speaker 4: I was there with him right up until the end.

965
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:18,439
Speaker 4: And I don't know what's happened to my mom. And

966
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 4: that's where we quite often talk about ambiguous loss and

967
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 4: the ambiguity of not knowing, And that's full frontal for

968
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 4: me right now, is because it's really come home to

969
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 4: me pretty thick and fast that I just don't know

970
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 4: what's happened to my mum, and I don't think i've

971
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 4: processed her death. You know, I do believe she's deceased.

972
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 4: I don't believe that she would still be alive and

973
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 4: not be here today. And you know, hearing the coroner

974
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 4: say for the first time last year that she was

975
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 4: deceased as well, based on all the evidence, very hard

976
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 4: to hear. But you really, honestly, you just in this space.

977
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 4: You don't process it like they It's words and it's

978
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 4: a document. I have a certificate, but I really, honestly

979
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 4: this week have come to the realization I have not

980
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 4: processed my mum in that form at all.

981
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:07,919
Speaker 5: I have not grieved her.

982
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 4: And I keep pushing myself through these things that I'm

983
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 4: doing in the missing space to keep her memory alive

984
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 4: and to keep me working hard to help others because

985
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 4: I'm really passionate. You and I on the same page

986
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 4: when it comes to passion in this space, and I

987
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 4: see that in you, and you know we've met up

988
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 4: quite a few times now over the past six odd years,

989
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 4: and you know, I'm really grateful for that, because, as

990
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 4: I said before, I think you're a great person. Your

991
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 4: work is so important I can only assume, and you just.

992
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 5: Touched on it.

993
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 4: Then I don't usually get upset and cry, but I

994
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 4: was close to that. Then how do you cope being

995
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 4: a mum seeing firsthand what can happen to our loved ones.

996
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 2: Well, if you ask the kids, I can be unnecessarilyably overprotective,

997
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 2: but you know, I do hope that one day they

998
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 2: do understand why I might have kept them probably a

999
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 2: bit closer than some of their mates, because you know,

1000
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 2: it is hard to unknow what you know and unsee

1001
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 2: what you have seen. And as a forensic scientist, you know,

1002
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 2: I guess we are witnessed to some of the worst

1003
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 2: bits of human nature.

1004
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 3: That can be challenging sometimes.

1005
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 2: But you know, as I talked about before, it's a

1006
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 2: role that I wouldn't give up the world because you know,

1007
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 2: I have this unique privilege of being able to return

1008
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 2: loved ones to a family.

1009
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 3: In some cases that is the remains of you know.

1010
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 2: Children, So as a mom, I can't kind of think

1011
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 2: of a greater gift.

1012
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 3: That you know, I won't lie.

1013
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 2: It can be extremely challenging, and sometimes stuff gets to you.

1014
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,479
Speaker 3: As much as you try and keep your scientist hat on.

1015
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 2: And just go through the motions you know in the lab,

1016
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 2: never forgetting you know, the role that you're playing at

1017
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 2: that time.

1018
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:06,919
Speaker 3: And when handling, you know someone's loved one. So sometimes yeah,

1019
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 3: you just.

1020
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 2: Got to put on a brave face and get on

1021
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 2: with it.

1022
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 5: I thank you for joining me today.

1023
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 4: I always finish these podcasts with having people tell me.

1024
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 5: Why they're missing.

1025
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 4: Loved one matters, but I want you to tell me

1026
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 4: why all of the missing matter, because you're working for

1027
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 4: all of us.

1028
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 3: Missing people matter.

1029
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:36,440
Speaker 2: So because every person matters, you know, everyone deserves to

1030
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 2: be treated with dignity in life and in death. I

1031
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 2: obviously focus a lot on the death side of things,

1032
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:49,440
Speaker 2: but you know, for me, it's about getting answers for

1033
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 2: the living. So my mission is to ensure that every

1034
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 2: deceased and disappeared person receives timely, equal and respectful forensic

1035
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 2: tree to establish their identity, but also to uphold their

1036
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 2: human rights, their cultural rights, their legal rights. So that's

1037
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 2: why we're committed at Forensic Human Identification Company, you know,

1038
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 2: to restoring names, reuniting families, and resolving cases.

1039
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 3: Of the missing, because they matters ou and so do

1040
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 3: their families.

1041
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 1: In the next episode of The Missing Matter. Andrew Inglis

1042
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: was last seen on Boxing Day nineteen eighty five in Yamber,

1043
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 1: New South Wales.

1044
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 5: He was just eighteen years old.

1045
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: He'd been staying with his friends at a local caravan

1046
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 1: park when, after a brief dispute with another young man

1047
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: he knew well, Andrew packed his camping gear and left.

1048
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 1: He was last seen driving away from the park in

1049
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 1: He's Read nineteen seventy nine. Dat's in Sedan Registration SR

1050
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 1: eight six y nine. He's never been seen again. Joanne

1051
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 1: Greenseille was Andrew's teenage girlfriend. In the next episode, she

1052
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 1: speaks with sal about how it's not only families who

1053
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: live with the pain of a missing person, but everyone

1054
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:26,480
Speaker 1: connected to them.