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Speaker 1: It is Fitzy and member with you on Nova. We

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Speaker 1: are fascinated by these stands. Got an original documentary coming out.

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Speaker 1: It's called Revealed, No Mercy, No Remorse Now. Premiere is tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: And the man behind it, who a crime reporter for

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Speaker 1: the Age since nineteen seventy nine, has been following these

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Speaker 1: stories for a very long time. He's a sick man.

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Speaker 1: His name's John Silvestri.

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Speaker 2: John good morning too.

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Speaker 3: Just to correct Fitzy, then John's not the sick man.

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Speaker 3: He's the one that understands what this case is and

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Speaker 3: therefore the documentary has been made. But you had to

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Speaker 3: deal with some sick people, didn't you, John.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, this is a particular crime that haunts many people,

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Speaker 2: and the documentary shows, I think everyone, from the investigators

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Speaker 2: to the judge how they still carry it right. It's

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Speaker 2: a six week period in nineteen ninety three where three

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Speaker 2: women murdered and it's a serial killer. And what we're

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Speaker 2: trying to concentrate on is the incredible pressure that the

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Speaker 2: investigators were on. I mean, you're in a cutthroat industry

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Speaker 2: where ratings are important and relevant and you've got to

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Speaker 2: be on top of your game. But imagine being a

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Speaker 2: homicide investigator where you know that the offender is going

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Speaker 2: to strike again. You're going through all known suspects, all

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Speaker 2: people with criminal records. There's no CCTV or mobile phones

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Speaker 2: in those days. You work twenty hours and then you're

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Speaker 2: going home and it starts to rain. Because this offender

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Speaker 2: always struck when it rained, because he wanted it to

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Speaker 2: wash away the clues. Oh my god. So the moment

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Speaker 2: it rained, you be going is this the night? And

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Speaker 2: they knew he was going to get He would attack

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Speaker 2: more and more frequently.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So John, three women, we're talking about the area

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Speaker 3: of Frankston in Melbourne, not just out of Melbourne there

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Speaker 3: on the morning to Peninsula. On those nights you talk about,

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Speaker 3: he's already struck. You know he's going to go again.

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Speaker 3: It's a rainy night. Was that the night? Were patrol

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Speaker 3: cars everywhere around Frankston under those editions.

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Speaker 2: They had police forces, they had police helicopter. But he

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Speaker 2: would strike at night because, as I said, to make

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Speaker 2: sure clues weren't there in the rain, but also because

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Speaker 2: people weren't out and about. And you know the first

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Speaker 2: victim where he walked up behind her and made her

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Speaker 2: hold his hand like they were a boyfriend and girlfriend

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Speaker 2: and they're walking down the street, and this poor young

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Speaker 2: woman knows that she's getting closer and closer to her

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Speaker 2: uncle's place where she's living. So in all probability, she

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Speaker 2: was going to wait till she got there and scream

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Speaker 2: or attempt to run away. But eleven houses from home,

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Speaker 2: eleven houses from potential safety, he turns right and take

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Speaker 2: her away and threw into a park. And when the

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Speaker 2: head of homicide Peter Harron went to that scene and

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Speaker 2: saw the victim and saw the worms, he immediately knew

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Speaker 2: this person would strike again. He told his superiors, he said, oh,

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Speaker 2: you've been watching too much telling. But sadly he was right.

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Speaker 4: Why how's that.

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Speaker 2: Sort of ritualistic wounds and so on and the frenzy,

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Speaker 2: And ultimately it came down to a member of the

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Speaker 2: public who made the big breakthrough. Remember this is before

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Speaker 2: mobile phones. If she's a posty, she's doing her round

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Speaker 2: and she sees a batter Toyota in skyroad with no

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Speaker 2: rear plate. So as she goes past, she has a

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Speaker 2: quick look into her rearview mirror and sees a big

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Speaker 2: guy sort of slinking down in the driver's seat China hide. Now,

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Speaker 2: if she had waited to finish her round and got

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Speaker 2: to the post office and run the police, it would

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Speaker 2: have been too late. She goes one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: meters up the road, sees a couple in the front yard,

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Speaker 2: said can I use your phone? So she rings the police.

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Speaker 2: They arrive within fifteen minutes. Dania had already left the car.

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Speaker 2: He'd attacked a schoolgirl called Natalie Russell and killed her.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, coming back to his car covered in

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Speaker 2: blood or blood on his hands, and he saw the police,

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Speaker 2: so he went home. So that's low port of investigation.

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Speaker 2: There's a third victim. But the next day the police

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Speaker 2: report turns up saying there was this toyota right where

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Speaker 2: Natalie had walked up a track and it's owned by

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Speaker 2: Paul Charles Daniel. So they go to interview him and

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Speaker 2: the chief investigator, Rod Wilson goes, he's just not right.

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Speaker 2: He's too cooperative, he's too enthusiastic.

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Speaker 4: There was an element of him getting off on that

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Speaker 4: as well, wasn't there.

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Speaker 2: You can see that he loves being the star. And

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Speaker 2: the thing is he had an alibi for everything, and

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Speaker 2: as the chief investigator, Rod Wilson said, you don't know,

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Speaker 2: you don't remember what you were doing a week ago.

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Speaker 2: Yet he could remember six weeks ago exactly what he

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Speaker 2: was doing.

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Speaker 3: Did he seem like a simple man or there were

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Speaker 3: Did he seem like he was, you know, missing a

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Speaker 3: few screws.

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Speaker 2: Or no, it was dopey but cunning. I mean at

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Speaker 2: one point when when faced with overwhelming evidence, he begins

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Speaker 2: to confess. At one point he produces his runners and

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Speaker 2: shows them to the police and they're going, yes, so

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Speaker 2: what they go, well, well, I put them on the

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Speaker 2: radiator to alter the tread tread so that they wouldn't

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Speaker 2: come up on footprints. And he looks at them from

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Speaker 2: a moment like, aren't I clever? He wants validation the police.

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Speaker 4: Yes. Never.

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Speaker 1: Trailer for the docco ends with the line he'll never,

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Speaker 1: he'll never not be a risk to the community.

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Speaker 4: Never.

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Speaker 1: Now with this in mind, well you've got to talk

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Speaker 1: about Paul din you because he's eligible for parole this

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Speaker 1: time next year.

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Speaker 4: So what's going on there? John?

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Speaker 2: The original judge, probably mister murder Frank Vincent sentenced him

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Speaker 2: to life no minimum, and he was rolled at appeal

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Speaker 2: and they gave him a minimum of thirty years yep,

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Speaker 2: purely because he was so young at the time. Now

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Speaker 2: that means that next to you, he's eligible, right, okay for

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Speaker 2: Parolta then I'll get it, yes, And I would be

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Speaker 2: astounded if the parole board let him out, because forget

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Speaker 2: about punishing Danya and he's irrelevant. It's about protecting us yep.

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Speaker 2: And there is no expert who can give us one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent guarantee that he wouldn't strike again, So therefore

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Speaker 2: he stays inside. It's pretty simple mass old of.

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Speaker 1: Thought with serial killers in America were allowed to go

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Speaker 1: into the prisons and get into the minds of these

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Speaker 1: serial killers, Son of Sam some of the biggest ones.

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Speaker 4: John Wane Gacy all that. Charles Manson was another one

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Speaker 4: as well.

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Speaker 1: Have you what are our laws here in Australia, John,

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Speaker 1: because someone like yourself to find out about the mind

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Speaker 1: of a serial killer would be well it's not only

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Speaker 1: like fascinating, but it's beneficial for any police going forward.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you take Denya and you take the f

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Speaker 2: by FBI profiling ethodology, you can see exactly that he's

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Speaker 2: not known because he doesn't have a serious criminal record.

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Speaker 2: Yet you have a look. He began by mutilating his

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Speaker 2: younger sisters soft toys, cutting their heads open and disemboweling

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Speaker 2: them and things like that. Then there was series of

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Speaker 2: sort of clo animal cases wherever they move there'd be

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Speaker 2: animals going missing and so on. And then he wanted

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Speaker 2: to kill a particular woman and arrived at her house

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Speaker 2: and she wasn't there, so he killed her cats and

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Speaker 2: left a message on the wall. And that's just freakish

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Speaker 2: because the woman had been getting strange phone calls and

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Speaker 2: her partner was a pizza delivery guy and on that

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Speaker 2: night she felt so uncomfortable she said, can I do

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Speaker 2: the run with our baby? So she sat in the

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Speaker 2: car and wasn't harm otherwise she would have been the

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Speaker 2: first victim. And also in these cases, they say often

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Speaker 2: the offender will try and join the police force because

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Speaker 2: they get off on the power. Then you try to

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Speaker 2: join the police force and they often intrude into the investigation.

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Speaker 2: Then you rang the police at one point and said

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Speaker 2: do you want to see me because you've left a

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Speaker 2: business guard. That was just a normal knock around, a

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Speaker 2: door knock. And then ultimately in the interview he says

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Speaker 2: to Rod Wilson, I saw you, is what I mean.

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Speaker 2: You saw me when I drove past sky Road and

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Speaker 2: the police caravan was there. I saw you. So the

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Speaker 2: next day he went back to see what the police

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Speaker 2: were doing. And on that day he had earlier, he

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Speaker 2: was on the prowl again and there was a shopping

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Speaker 2: center and four women went to that shopping center and

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Speaker 2: one was dozing in the car, so they left it.

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Speaker 2: When they came back, that same batted Toyota was parked

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Speaker 2: next to their car, and there was a fellow fiddling

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Speaker 2: inside his the hood up and was fiddling.

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Speaker 4: The engine was getting ready to go.

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Speaker 2: Well. She later said, I felt there was someone in

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Speaker 2: the car, but one of the women actually knew him

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Speaker 2: and said what are you doing here? And he mumbled

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Speaker 2: and drove off. But that woman's danuit asked that woman's

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Speaker 2: daughter out and she'd refused, and then all their chickens

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Speaker 2: were decapitated and there were signs of of you know,

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Speaker 2: it was a screwdriver found near the sleepout and so on,

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Speaker 2: so he was getting ready to strike again. So it

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Speaker 2: was an incredible job by the police and the record

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Speaker 2: of interview done by Rod Wilson is still considered to

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Speaker 2: be one of the best interviews of its type.

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Speaker 3: Can I ask, I mean to hear all the details

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Speaker 3: which you're sharing now. Obviously there was a lot more

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Speaker 3: gruesome detail that you had to deal with back in

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Speaker 3: the day that you would have would have come across

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Speaker 3: your desk. You find it hard to talk about still

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Speaker 3: when it brings back the memories of when it was happening.

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Speaker 2: I remember the rain on the roof at my house,

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Speaker 2: and I remember thinking of the Frankston people and of

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Speaker 2: the investigators, many who I consider to be good friends.

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Speaker 2: But to consider my role, which is absolutely insignificant as

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Speaker 2: compared to the people who are actually doing the job,

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Speaker 2: of course, and I think of anything. This documentary shows

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Speaker 2: you the thirty years on the police never leave it.

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Speaker 2: It takes for that sort of commitment. As I said,

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Speaker 2: you can't imagine the pressure they are under. And you

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Speaker 2: can see one of the investigators becomes very emotional when

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Speaker 2: he considers that last victim, Natalie Russell. And you know

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Speaker 2: that they always think, you know, did I miss something

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Speaker 2: because we've got him early.

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Speaker 1: The Age Crime reporter since nineteen seventy nine has been

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Speaker 1: Have there been moments John, It's been really tough for you,

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Speaker 1: Like do you struggle a sleep sometimes.

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Speaker 4: I mean the things that have shocked you, things that

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Speaker 4: you've read seen.

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Speaker 2: It. It's funny what you say, because for every horrible crime,

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Speaker 2: I see sort of many acts of heroism, you know.

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Speaker 2: I think of Daniel. I think I think of his interview.

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Speaker 2: I think of certain things that he did and how

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Speaker 2: he you know, when one of the victims beg for

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Speaker 2: her life, he says it was disgusting, you know, and

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Speaker 2: how pleased he was when he found items from a

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Speaker 2: victim when he went to the crimes and to show

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Speaker 2: police he wasn't lying. But I also see these investigators,

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Speaker 2: and I see the judge, and I see, you know,

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Speaker 2: the community fight back, and i'd see David Limbrick, an

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Speaker 2: MP who was Natalie Russell's boyfriend who lost her his way,

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Speaker 2: dropped out of Yuni and was stagnating, and a year

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Speaker 2: and a half later he said, I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: be defined by this man. I'm getting my life back together.

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Speaker 2: And now he's a sponsoring a petition to ensure that

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Speaker 2: Danya doesn't get out. So you actually see the best

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Speaker 2: and the worst, and you don't necessarily well on the worst.

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Speaker 2: And I know that, you know, we live in incredibly

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Speaker 2: safe society. And the reason that we talk about the

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Speaker 2: denyas is they're so rare.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the shock us shock us Tommy, you're a Franks

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Speaker 3: and boyd you remember it at the time.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And Mum couldn't go out by herself at night.

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Speaker 5: We all had, you know, Dad always had to coompany her.

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Speaker 4: Ever.

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Speaker 5: But the whole I think was about six weeks John

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Speaker 5: that the whole of the Frankston area was in sort

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Speaker 5: of terror.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And the one of the investigators, more than twenty

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Speaker 2: five years later, was the head of the homicide squad.

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Speaker 2: And one of the cases was so similar to Natalie,

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Speaker 2: a seventeen year old girl walking through a park, stabbed

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Speaker 2: in a similar way to Daniel's victims. And he came

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Speaker 2: out and he said, and you know that he saw this,

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Speaker 2: and he knew that this was a potential serial killer,

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Speaker 2: and he came out and he warned, women don't walk

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Speaker 2: through parks alone. And women understandably sick and tired of

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Speaker 2: being told to modify your behavior when it's perfectly natural

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Speaker 2: sort of things that you should be able to do

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Speaker 2: all the time. He was accused of victim blaming, but

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Speaker 2: I knew what he was dealing with and he was

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Speaker 2: right that defender was going to strike again. The difference

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Speaker 2: was today we've got CCTV and he was identified quickly.

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Speaker 2: Otherwise we had another Dinua.

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Speaker 3: God fascinating story.

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Speaker 4: He's another one. I don't know if you know.

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Speaker 1: I read an article recently, John, I mean crime podcasts,

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Speaker 1: documentaries like this under Belly was massive, John, and you're

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Speaker 1: involved with that and reporting on those crimes over the

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Speaker 1: years in Melbourne as well. But it is so huge

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Speaker 1: now that people are addicted to it. But did you

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Speaker 1: know that eighty percent of the listeners for crime podcasts

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Speaker 1: and watching these documentaries are female?

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Speaker 4: John? They really really, My wife is addicted to this

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Speaker 4: stuff see I channel on Foxtell as well. And these

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Speaker 4: stand documentaries.

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Speaker 3: Why is it?

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Speaker 1: Why is it that eighty percent of the gender is

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Speaker 1: a female that they love this kind of stuff?

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Speaker 2: I think guessing it's because people have a real interest

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Speaker 2: in why these people became what they are. And with

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Speaker 2: a stand documentary comes the podcast which is Naked City,

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Speaker 2: And yeah, there is a strong, always has been a

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Speaker 2: strong female element. I suppose it's what makes us stop

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Speaker 2: and stare at it at an accident. You know, we

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Speaker 2: don't want to see the consequences of it. But we're

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Speaker 2: attracted to it. I suppose I can't believe what we're hearing.

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Speaker 1: Hey, John, before you go, you've got to chop a

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Speaker 1: story for us that you can share with us. We

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Speaker 1: got to interview Chopper before he passed, which was an

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Speaker 1: interesting interview. But have you got one for us?

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Speaker 2: So called chop chop here Mark Mark was really well

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Speaker 2: known in the underworld, but not particularly by the public.

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Speaker 2: And I worked at the Herald Son at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I wrote a double page story after he had

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Speaker 2: been acquitted of a murder.

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Speaker 4: How did I go for you?

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Speaker 2: Well? I tried to indicate he was violent, manipulative and

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Speaker 2: his sense of for him, I was just a front.

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Speaker 2: And the response was I got a Christmas card at work,

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Speaker 2: which was surprising because it was July, and it said

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Speaker 2: Seasons greeting some jingle bells. I hope the Yule tide

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Speaker 2: log falls from a fireplace and burns your house down.

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Speaker 2: My idea of a perfect Christmas would to own a

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Speaker 2: thousand room hotel and find a dead Herald Sun reporter

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Speaker 2: behind every door. Seasons get in some jingle bells.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: I mean that was the other question I was leading

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Speaker 1: to over the years, when you write on stuff like this,

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Speaker 1: you're going to get responses. But god, that's Chopper just

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Speaker 1: playing with you.

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Speaker 2: But I you know, I contacted him and said, you know,

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't say that to my face, and he said,

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Speaker 2: come out and see me, and to my horror, the

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Speaker 2: prison officers let me. So you go out to well,

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Speaker 2: you did h division, and it's not like you see

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Speaker 2: within the phone and the perspects. I just sat in

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Speaker 2: a room with him and he grabbed my hand and

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Speaker 2: put it and stuck my thumb in a hole in

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Speaker 2: his head and he said that's where the ice pick

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Speaker 2: went in. And I said, well, we normally just shake hands.

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Speaker 2: And as a consequence he he told all the bleak

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Speaker 2: and black and funny stories that you've yeah heard. And

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Speaker 2: so I wrote another double page story and I liked it,

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Speaker 2: and the editor liked it, and chop I liked it,

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Speaker 2: but the parole board didn't. He got another six months. Oh,

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Speaker 2: I revealed too much? What market? But Mark was always

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Speaker 2: motivated by fame, yes, And he said, it's not the

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Speaker 2: fastest gun slingers in the wed that were remembered. It

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Speaker 2: was the ones that peld up with the drunken journos

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Speaker 2: from the Penny Dreadfuls, and so of course he wrote

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Speaker 2: with us. He wrote the Choper series and he was

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Speaker 2: the one who said the person who should play me

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Speaker 2: is Eric Bannett. Wow, no one would listen. And there

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Speaker 2: is actually a bit of YouTube footage which is fascinating

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Speaker 2: because Eric went down to see Mark for a weekend

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Speaker 2: and this vision of it and it's how he learned

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Speaker 2: to do Mark. I mean, it was a first class

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Speaker 2: piece of mimicry. Everyone loved it except Choppery. The travel

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Speaker 2: is Eric does a better chopper read than I do.

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Speaker 4: John Sylvester, we could talk to you all day. This

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Speaker 4: is fascinating.

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Speaker 1: It's the brand new original documentary from Stand Revealed, No Mercy,

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Speaker 1: No Remorse. It premiere is on Stand tomorrow. Make sure

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Speaker 1: you go check it out. And also, so the podcast

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Speaker 1: was the.

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Speaker 4: Podcast called John Naked City Naked City Done.

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Speaker 1: That's going to be fascinating. It's the Three Murders from

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Speaker 1: Paul Charles Daniel. I mean watching the trailer freak justus

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Speaker 1: out just watching that. Well, we really appreciate your time,

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Speaker 1: so we know how busy you are. Thanks for coming

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Speaker 1: on good, Thanks very much, Thanks and Whipper