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Speaker 1: I'll get a teen before we get under way today,

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Speaker 1: a blatant plug for me. Upcome a new mentoring program.

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Speaker 1: As you know, I do me best to keep the

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Speaker 1: advertising for my own programs to a minimum on this

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Speaker 1: show because I think it's kind of annoying. But fuck it,

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Speaker 1: today I'm breaking my own rule. So on July thirty,

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Speaker 1: my new eight week online mentoring Extravaganza kicks off. And

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Speaker 1: I've created this program for people who want to get

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Speaker 1: more out of their time, talent, genetics, potential, skills, career

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Speaker 1: and resources what they've got at their disposal. People who

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Speaker 1: want to move above and beyond the groundhog danus of

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Speaker 1: unconscious repetition, of frustration, of self sabotage and overthinking and underdoing,

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Speaker 1: and the destructive habits and rituals, and the crappy results

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Speaker 1: and the perpetual waiting for the right time that never comes.

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Speaker 1: We'll be unpacking the human experience from a psychological, emotional, sociological, physiological,

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Speaker 1: call your body and behavioral perspective, and there'll be lots

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Speaker 1: of room and time for interaction, conversation, and Q and A. So,

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Speaker 1: if that doesn't sound terrible and you'd like to find

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Speaker 1: out a little bit more about the program. Go to

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Speaker 1: me website, me website and take a peek at the

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Speaker 1: very detailed eight week overview. So just go to me

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Speaker 1: dot com. Well, no it's not really, it's actually Craigharper

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Speaker 1: one word dot net, click on education and see what's up. Alrighty,

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Speaker 1: I'm with the show. I get a team. It's Harps

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Speaker 1: and Tiff and Steve and it's the You Project. It's

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Speaker 1: early in the am here in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne.

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Speaker 1: It's four minutes past eight o'clock as we hit the

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Speaker 1: go button. Hi, Tiff, how excited are you? I'm very excited.

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Speaker 1: Craig Ethy Harper. You have a bit of a crush

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Speaker 1: on our guests, and you've had him on your show

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Speaker 1: a couple of times and you do rave Yeah, I do, yep,

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Speaker 1: especially because he brought up the dogg os last time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, we're going to talk about it. So I

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Speaker 1: feel like you have a crush on a couple of

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Speaker 1: married men. I'm not sure that seems to be a thing.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. I think married inaccessible. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's how I like them. That is that your strategy?

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Speaker 1: It keeps me safe. It keeps you avoiding any kind

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Speaker 1: of commitment or actual relationships. Yes, yep, I've been following

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Speaker 1: much the same protocol for years, and you and I

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Speaker 1: have successfully ducked and with any form of commitment or

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Speaker 1: marriage or grown upness for a long time. Coler, how

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Speaker 1: long have you been married? He doesn't know?

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Speaker 2: Teen years, fourteen years, fifteen years?

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Speaker 1: I can't.

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Speaker 2: You got to do better than that and seven?

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Speaker 1: Are you interested? But it feels I'm sure it feels

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Speaker 1: so fresh and new. You know, he's done one million interviews.

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Speaker 1: No one has ever asked him off the top.

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Speaker 2: I have to understand that the way we sustained our

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Speaker 2: marriage for fifteen years is we too subscribe to they

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Speaker 2: have a continent between you and your crush. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: Now I read the book, Craig. You know it was

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Speaker 2: a good how too, and we listened.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome. You're welcome. Well, thanks for coming on the

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Speaker 1: You project. You and I started a minor dialogue before

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Speaker 1: we press the record button. But I love the stuff

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Speaker 1: you do. I'm fascinated with your research and your writing

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Speaker 1: and what what lit the fire for you in terms

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Speaker 1: of being so interested in and obsessed maybe with human performance,

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Speaker 1: was there an event. Was there something that happened or

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Speaker 1: was it just part of who you are?

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Speaker 2: We're a bunch of things that happened. It is definitely

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Speaker 2: part of who I am. But the real like that

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Speaker 2: the first time it went from you know me trying

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Speaker 2: to like fix me and make life work a little

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Speaker 2: better too. Oh, there's an interesting there's something going on

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Speaker 2: here that I need to pay attention to. I started

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Speaker 2: my career as a journalist and in the early nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 2: and journalism is a fabulous career where they pay you

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Speaker 2: to go learn about things you're curious about, and super

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Speaker 2: curious about neuroscience, especially in the early nineties, because that

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Speaker 2: was behavioral neuroscience, Like we were first starting to figure

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Speaker 2: out how do people work, how do emotions work? Is

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Speaker 2: consciousness something we can actually talk about out loud as

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Speaker 2: a serious topic of science, all those kinds of questions.

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Speaker 2: It was fascinated with those things simultaneously. On total opposite

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Speaker 2: side of the coin, I was obsessed with action sports

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Speaker 2: and so surfing, skiing, rock climbing, snowboarding and the like,

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Speaker 2: and I spent the better portion of a decade chasing

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Speaker 2: professional athletes around mountains and across oceans, and if you

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Speaker 2: know much about action sports in the nineteen nineties, it's

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Speaker 2: often referred to as the so called era of impossible.

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Speaker 2: We're more impossible, never been done, never going to be done.

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Speaker 2: Feats than ever before got accomplished. And you know, it's

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Speaker 2: one thing, I think to see a laired Hamilton serve

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Speaker 2: one hundred foot wave on a screen, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it's quite another when, like you go drinking with your

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Speaker 2: friends on a Friday night and then on Saturday morning,

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Speaker 2: I reason hungover and you go into the mountains and

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Speaker 2: one of your friends does something that for all of

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Speaker 2: recorded history, nobody's ever done and is not supposed to

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Speaker 2: be done. It's a very different thing. And on top

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Speaker 2: of that, and you know this from your high performance background,

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Speaker 2: this is not rocket science. But all the people I knew,

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Speaker 2: especially in the early nineties when action sports just getting going,

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Speaker 2: it was really a punk rock subculture. Especially I was

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Speaker 2: in Tahoe, so that was really a mecca that most

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Speaker 2: of the folks I knew didn't have a lot of education.

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of money. They had really rough childhoods.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the people I knew it came from

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Speaker 2: really difficult broken home scenarios. They had no money, no education,

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Speaker 2: broken homes, lots of risk taking, lots of substance abuse. Normally,

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Speaker 2: put these things together in a community and people die

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Speaker 2: young or they go to jail. What they don't do

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Speaker 2: is reinvent what's possible for the species. So seeing all

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Speaker 2: that up front, you know, first question what the hell

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Speaker 2: is going on? So it really it went from personal

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Speaker 2: interest to oh wow, this is a this is a phenomenon.

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Speaker 2: And as journalists, you know, it took a while to notice. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but the journalists would get together there over a couple

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Speaker 2: of years, we sit down and talk, and every conversation

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Speaker 2: was we've hit the ceiling. It's not going to be

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Speaker 2: there's no way people are going to start dying in

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Speaker 2: droves that we can't go any farther this is. And

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Speaker 2: it kept going and going and going, and eventually, you know,

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Speaker 2: after four or five of those conversations, you start to

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Speaker 2: realize it's not going to stop, and something really unusual

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Speaker 2: is happening. And that's where it started for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like I love that. I feel like

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Speaker 1: psychology gets in the way of physiological potentials so much.

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Speaker 1: In other words, our mind gets in the way of

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Speaker 1: our possibilities, you know. And I've worked with athletes who

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Speaker 1: are incredibly fucking gifted, and I've got more confidence and

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Speaker 1: faith in their ability than they have. And some of

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Speaker 1: them have gone on to tap into that, but some

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Speaker 1: of them haven't. And then I've worked with other people,

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Speaker 1: like I trained a lady for five Olympic Games. Her

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Speaker 1: name is Jackie Cooper, and she's an aerial ski jumper,

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Speaker 1: five time world champion, and she would tell you herself

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Speaker 1: not wildly gifted, but the most fucking incredible mindset ever.

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Speaker 1: And you know, she went on to be the first

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Speaker 1: woman to do a triple twisting triple back some assault

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Speaker 1: in the world. And I heard from her six weeks

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Speaker 1: ago and she's training for something I can't say a

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Speaker 1: lot about because it's a tell TV thing over here.

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Speaker 1: But she's forty nine and she hasn't trained thirteen years.

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Speaker 1: And I started training her six weeks ago and she's

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Speaker 1: she wouldn't mind me saying this, but she's a fucking savage,

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Speaker 1: and like it's still there. She's a fucking savage, and

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Speaker 1: like it's like some flame just got reignited, you know.

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Speaker 1: And here's this woman who hadn't trained since she was

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Speaker 1: thirty six, she's now forty nine, and in six weeks

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Speaker 1: her body has transformed, and I have to constantly hold

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Speaker 1: her back like most people. I have to coax and

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Speaker 1: prod and push or a lot of people. But I

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Speaker 1: need to make sure she doesn't kill herself in the process. Wow, incredible,

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Speaker 1: it's incredible. But I feel like that's of course, that's

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Speaker 1: the anomaly. But you know, I know for myself, Stephen,

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Speaker 1: like I'm fifty nine, I grew up not great genetics,

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Speaker 1: not great potential, not good, not athletically gifted, none of

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Speaker 1: that stuff. And so for me that's the catalyst because

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Speaker 1: like I was over two hundred pounds in in year

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Speaker 1: eight at school and not not at all kids, and

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Speaker 1: my name at school was Jumbo. And then I lost

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Speaker 1: all of this weight and I went from last in

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Speaker 1: every event to quite okay. So not a bad athlete,

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Speaker 1: but not because of genetics, just because of work. And

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Speaker 1: for me, that opened the door on, oh wow, if

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Speaker 1: I can do this with my body, what else can

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Speaker 1: I do?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: What else is? Like I went to a boys private boys' school,

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Speaker 1: and we had to do compulsory cross country runs every week,

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Speaker 1: and I came one hundred and thirtieth out of one

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty bois you didn't know that? Tif? Did you?

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Speaker 1: Well done one hundred and thirtieth because I couldn't run,

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Speaker 1: so I walked coming last. What's that you came first?

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Speaker 1: I was excellent at coming last. But I trained and

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff, and anyone can train. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that just opened the door on this curiosity for me

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Speaker 1: around what is possible for us? So tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your latest book. Your latest book is

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Speaker 1: called Na Country. I'm excited about that. It's about you

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Speaker 1: exploring your add limits, your physiological and I guess psychological

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Speaker 1: limits as a as a fifty three year old trying

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Speaker 1: to become in a late scale.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, in sort of a fit of madness for

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Speaker 2: a bunch of really strange reasons that we don't have

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Speaker 2: to go into at age fifty three, I took a

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Speaker 2: bunch of sort of new theories from embodied cognition, flow science,

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Speaker 2: and network neuroscience or neurodynamics, right and mashed them together.

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Speaker 2: And most of these things are true in the lab.

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Speaker 2: Are they true in the real world? Interesting question? But

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Speaker 2: if they are, it should be possible for older athletes

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Speaker 2: to progress in seemingly impossible activities like park skin. Right.

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Speaker 2: So I blended this together and I ran a really

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Speaker 2: fun experiment where I basically tried to go from zero

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Speaker 2: experience park skiin never you know, never really been in

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Speaker 2: a train park before, can ski, but never really been

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Speaker 2: in a train park before. Too intermediate in a single season,

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Speaker 2: which is would be challenging for anybody, but for somebody

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Speaker 2: the age fifty three. You know, most of the belief

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Speaker 2: is that most of our physical skills decline over time.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing we can do to slop the slide. There's

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Speaker 2: church says no, that's not true. But you know, open question.

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Speaker 2: The motor were window motor learning, window slam shut in,

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Speaker 2: you know, around twenty five, things like that. All the

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Speaker 2: new sciences hold on maybe not so fast, but so

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Speaker 2: we put it to the test and I ran an

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Speaker 2: experiment where took all these ideas, blended them together, you know,

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Speaker 2: and had an incredibly successful season. Turned out I was

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Speaker 2: my ski partner was using all the same stuff he

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Speaker 2: got just as far as I got. And that caught

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Speaker 2: our attention. I mean, two people as the smallest pilot

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Speaker 2: studying history, but it caught our because both of us

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Speaker 2: made like enormous progress in a single season. So last year,

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Speaker 2: Winner of twenty twenty one, we took a group of

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Speaker 2: seventeen older adults which is thirty to sixty eight, took

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Speaker 2: the same core principles we used and in four days.

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Speaker 2: This is a slight exaggeration. I can go into more detail,

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Speaker 2: but we can. Four days. We taught them out of

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Speaker 2: parkski and everybody got so much farther than we thought

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Speaker 2: they were going to get. And so this is long

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Speaker 2: led into a whole kind of peak performance aging research

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Speaker 2: initiative and things like that. But the story of the

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Speaker 2: ski experiments is told in Our Country, which is a

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Speaker 2: book that comes out in February.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's I'm looking forward to have just started

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Speaker 1: because I got a preview copy. Thank you for that.

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Speaker 1: And I love the fact that you are both the

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Speaker 1: researcher and the researched. You are you're the project later

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Speaker 1: and you the you're the subject. I love that. But

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Speaker 1: but that's a good way to learn experientially but also

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Speaker 1: to be able to collect daughter and do all the

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Speaker 1: observational stuff along the way. Did you did you think

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Speaker 1: that you would progress the why that you did? Like

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Speaker 1: you must have had a level you got.

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Speaker 2: You got to understand that. Like when I I saw

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Speaker 2: how I did it is I started the season, I

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Speaker 2: made a list of twenty tricks, and I said, okay,

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Speaker 2: if you can learn these tricks of zero to intermediate,

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Speaker 2: and then I wanted to be able to ski a

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Speaker 2: fluid line through a kitty small and medium terrain park,

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Speaker 2: be able to like on all the features, be able

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Speaker 2: to do something cool and interesting off each of the features,

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Speaker 2: and that and that to me was and I really

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Speaker 2: when I like criticalists back in my head, I thought, okay,

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Speaker 2: if this takes five years to accomplish, that's going to

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Speaker 2: be a win. The thinking is this, Greg, so I

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Speaker 2: should give you a little bit of Maybe I'll give

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Speaker 2: you a little bit more backstory. You might have to

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Speaker 2: tell you a story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right.

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Speaker 2: So problem, as you know, at the center of my

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Speaker 2: work is flow right, and the godfather of flow psychology,

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Speaker 2: as me hih Chick, sent me high and passed away

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Speaker 2: last October. We've known each other over a lot of years,

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Speaker 2: not super well, but he's been incredibly gracious to me.

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Speaker 2: Every time I had a question called him up, he's

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Speaker 2: answered the phone and been really great and answer my questions.

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Speaker 2: And right before COVID, I had heard he had a

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Speaker 2: stroke and I wanted to see if he was okay.

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Speaker 2: And I had also they had just published a number

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Speaker 2: of sent me high textbooks on flow and adult development,

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Speaker 2: a couple of things like that. I've been reading them,

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Speaker 2: and I knew he was an avid outdoorsman. He has

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Speaker 2: lives in Montana, hikes a lot. I knew he did

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Speaker 2: early flow research on rock climbers and did some mountaineering,

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Speaker 2: and I knew a bunch of his students would tell

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Speaker 2: stories about how he'd come back from weekend adventures with

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Speaker 2: like bruises on his face from like climbing accidents and

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Speaker 2: things like that. And I'm reading a bunch of material

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Speaker 2: that was first translated out of Battalion's never appeared in

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Speaker 2: English before, and it started to down him. And this

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Speaker 2: guy was a much more serious action sport athlete than

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Speaker 2: he ever let on, and I started to wonder. I

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Speaker 2: was like, if you listen to his ted talk, he

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Speaker 2: discovered flow while in a concentration camp during the war

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Speaker 2: and then did all this early work on artists, and

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Speaker 2: that's the story he tells. And I started to wonder,

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Speaker 2: is that really the truth. I started to wonder, did

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Speaker 2: you not start going into the mountains and having these

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Speaker 2: really radically weird experiences like most actions sport athletes myself included,

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Speaker 2: But back in the sixties and seventies, there was no

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Speaker 2: possible way and even to take you seriously if you

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Speaker 2: were talking about like flow and rock climbers and things

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Speaker 2: like that, and that was So I called him up

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Speaker 2: to ask him this question, right, basically like, hey, where

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Speaker 2: you lying in your ted talk and this other stuff

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Speaker 2: and is this the right? So I asked him my question,

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Speaker 2: and there's this enormous pause, like a minute goes by

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Speaker 2: and two minutes go by, and I'm like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: did I just mortally offend like the Godfather was like

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Speaker 2: ology in my hair on my frown. Shit, And suddenly

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Speaker 2: IDA know he says, you got to be careful. And

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Speaker 2: at this point I'm thinking, oh shit, what happened to

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Speaker 2: his brain? Right, chick Cepty has lost the plot, like

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Speaker 2: he doesn't even know what's going Oh shit, what am

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Speaker 2: I going to do? And I sort of pause and

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Speaker 2: after be like thirty forty seconds, I'm like, well, Mike,

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Speaker 2: what do you mean? I gotta be careful? He's like,

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Speaker 2: you do something your whole life or flow, then you

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Speaker 2: get to be my age and forget about climbing mountains.

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Speaker 2: I can barely get out of bed. You need a

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Speaker 2: backup plan. You got to be careful. And it like

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Speaker 2: it blew my mind. It was first of all, I

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Speaker 2: thought it was incredibly kyd right. It was literally like

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Speaker 2: one flow junkie to another, like have a backup plan,

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Speaker 2: and it really resonated. I've been studying peak performance, aging

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Speaker 2: and all these other things for a while and I've

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Speaker 2: done a lot of work in and around these fields,

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Speaker 2: but it never coalesced. And I was like, Okay, I

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Speaker 2: need a backup plane. And my skin is my favorite

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Speaker 2: activity on a planet. But I'm a big mountain skier.

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Speaker 2: I go really fast down gnarly stuff and that's what

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Speaker 2: drops men to flow, and that's not that may not

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Speaker 2: be sustainable. And I figured if I could learn how

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Speaker 2: to park ski. It wasn't interested in being like Alex

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Speaker 2: Hall and winning in the Olympics or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to explore a whole new catalog possible motions

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Speaker 2: because creativity, novelty, unpredictability, and risk these are all flow triggers.

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Speaker 2: So if I could develop a skill set zero to

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Speaker 2: intermediate and intermediate like, you can sort of decrease some

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Speaker 2: of the danger because the random shit stops starts going wrong,

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Speaker 2: and I would just have a million more entrances and

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Speaker 2: to flow in my favorite activity in the world. That

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Speaker 2: was my idea of a backup line. That was my goal.

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Speaker 2: And I figured if it took five years, what it mattered.

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Speaker 2: I'd be sixty years old, but this would be this

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Speaker 2: would still work for me. I made so much progress

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Speaker 2: in this season. It was jaw dropping, Like I tipped

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Speaker 2: off all the tricks on my trip list went farther

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Speaker 2: than that had never progressed. I'm not a naturally gifted athlete.

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Speaker 2: I had an incredibly business schedule. I've got a very

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Speaker 2: broken body. I've broken almost eighty over eighty bones along

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Speaker 2: the way.

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Speaker 1: I had bones. What have you been doing?

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Speaker 2: I chased professional athletes around because I'm a writer. I'm

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Speaker 2: a writer. Let's get clear. Yeah, I broke my life

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Speaker 2: phone along the way.

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Speaker 1: There's not a lot left, dude, It's true.

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Speaker 2: After so, I mean, but my point was I started

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Speaker 2: pretty far behind the curve, right, Yeah, A lot didn't

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Speaker 2: want any more surgery, like it was really like yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it was shocking how far I got and it

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Speaker 2: was only watching my ski partner Ryan make the same progress.

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Speaker 2: I was like, it was really noticeable and him, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's like this doesn't, this doesn't. This is really accelerated.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I learned something that I didn't actually know

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Speaker 2: about performance, which is I was doing really terrifying scary stuff.

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Speaker 2: It was all very successful, right, there was nagging injuries

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Speaker 2: and fallows and whatever. But I ended up with PTSD

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Speaker 2: from the success so many scary things, like I was

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Speaker 2: pushing above my comfort zone time after time after time.

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Speaker 2: At a certain point, there was so much a cumulative

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Speaker 2: residual like it started, you know, start response got jacked

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Speaker 2: up to eleven night sweats, all of it like full

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Speaker 2: blown PTSD, and it was from success. I didn't even

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Speaker 2: know that was possible. I literally uh. I called Laired Hamilton,

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Speaker 2: the big wave Surfer, and I was Lair, this is

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Speaker 2: what's happening to me? Does this happen? He's like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that that actually happens. You could go out have a

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Speaker 2: great day at Chopu and come back and have a

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Speaker 2: low grade PTSD even if you surfed every way. It's

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Speaker 2: actually I had no idea.

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Speaker 1: Were they people were the external experts observing you. There

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Speaker 1: are people that you were talking to, Well, well, was

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Speaker 1: anyone going make you're fifty three? I'd be ridiculous. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, come on, sensible.

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Speaker 2: Every you know, depending on who you asked, right, like,

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Speaker 2: it was either one of the strangest midlife crisis or

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Speaker 2: you get yourself totally like lost my mind. Yeah, everybody,

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Speaker 2: I mean every people were like nuts. My friends who

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Speaker 2: had known me a really long time. I mean the

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Speaker 2: first question I had so many people's mouths were how

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Speaker 2: many bones have you broken so far? Like over and

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Speaker 2: over and over again. And it was only that was

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons we ran the experiment with like

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Speaker 2: you know, seventy and older adults who made a video

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Speaker 2: of it. We've got, you know, all all kinds of

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Speaker 2: stuff because it was kind of shocking and in fact,

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Speaker 2: this is in the book, but like two thirds of

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Speaker 2: the way through my adventure, I I literally I brought

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Speaker 2: in like a top level ski instructor to skw with

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Speaker 2: me and see how I was doing, because I you know,

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Speaker 2: I couldn't rate my abilities. I didn't trust my ski partner,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I wanted an outside person, and you know,

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Speaker 2: he basically confirmed our conclusions and always spawned the videos

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Speaker 2: and everything else, which like, you know, it still looks

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Speaker 2: like I'm a beginner, per skier, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: Or like it doesn't look fancy, it doesn't look like

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Speaker 2: anything you would say on the videos. But I got

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Speaker 2: pretty far, and I got a lot farther than any

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Speaker 2: of you thought somebody my age was supposed to get.

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Speaker 2: And you know, again, like in our study, I saw

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Speaker 2: sixty five year olds and sixty eight people who were

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Speaker 2: a decade to more older than me, make you know,

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Speaker 2: the same progress. My feeling actually in this I think

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Speaker 2: was proved out in our experiment was I'm actually such

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Speaker 2: a bad athlete that I figured if my progression was

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Speaker 2: this fast, if other people took these concepts and applied them,

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Speaker 2: they were actually going to go farther faster, which is

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Speaker 2: sort of turned out to be the case.

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Speaker 1: Well, me, I think a lot of the problem around

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Speaker 1: aging and the way that people age in terms of

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Speaker 1: you know, their physiology, function, performance, even you know, immune

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Speaker 1: system and health state overall is more about the expectation,

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Speaker 1: you know, in that like this, I don't know, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure The same term exists in America, but in Australia

401
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Speaker 1: there's this term age appropriate behavior. I'm like, fuck your

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Speaker 1: age appropriate, right, stick your age appropriate up your ass.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, and so we get we get

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Speaker 1: to a point where some people start to rationalize what

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Speaker 1: they're doing or what they think they should do, based

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Speaker 1: purely on a fucking number on a calendar, rather than

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Speaker 1: how do you feel? What do you want to do?

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Speaker 2: It's you know, if you go into the research, and

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you're familiar with some of this, but I mean,

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Speaker 2: for example, Harvard psychologist Ellen Langer spent most of her

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Speaker 2: career working on mind set and aging, you know, and

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Speaker 2: the link between mind, body and physiology. But her results

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Speaker 2: have been backed up. In fact, the craziest study it's

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Speaker 2: the Ohio Longitudinal Study of Retirement and Agent twenty year

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Speaker 2: study and on the impact on mindset on aging and

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Speaker 2: the power of mindset and having what's the impact of

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Speaker 2: having a positive attitude towards aging meaning I believe that

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Speaker 2: the second half of my life is going to be

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Speaker 2: filled with you know, exciting possibilities and thrilling et cetera,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. It results in an on average, an extra

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Speaker 2: seven and a half years of longevity and significant health

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Speaker 2: uptick along the way. And this is not surprising if

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Speaker 2: you look at the data that comes out of flows

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Speaker 2: science and out of some of some of the just

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Speaker 2: like pre performance science, a passion, purpose and flow. If

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Speaker 2: you if you live with passion, purpose and regular access

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Speaker 2: to flow, that also puts another seven years on your life. Now,

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Speaker 2: what I don't know is can these be cumulative or

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Speaker 2: is like mindset and passion, purpose and flow? Are we

430
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 2: looking at something that is being sandwiched together? Are these

431
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 2: different phenomenon that I mean? And can you get fourteen years? That?

432
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 2: I don't know? But and the studies are real, you know,

433
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 2: and there, as you probably know from your work in

434
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: neuroscience neuromminology with the mind body connection lengths at this

435
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 2: point are really starting to figure out, you know, how

436
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: that's working and where that's coming from. And you know

437
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 2: Ellen Langer's point and the way she phrases it is

438
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: what people don't realize is that aging is at least

439
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 2: partially a mental event that is reversible, right, And that

440
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: was a lot of what she discovered is a shift

441
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 2: in mindset. It's like you know, as you probably know,

442
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 2: from the background of physiology in the twentieth century, we

443
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 2: thought every single physical and mental skill went off the cliff.

444
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 2: It's the like long slow rot area of aging. Right,

445
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 2: and between ninety five and we discovered sort of cognitive

446
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: reserve and the union if you had Alzheimer's and dementia,

447
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 2: if you have a healthy cognitive reserve, you can function normally,

448
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 2: you know, up until death. Right. So that was the

449
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: first chack of the honor. But now it's every one

450
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: of these skills is a user to lose its skill. Right.

451
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 2: We used to think went away for a VO two

452
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 2: max is the great example, right forever it was falls

453
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 2: off a fricking cliff. There's nothing you can do about it.

454
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 2: And now we've got octogenarian you know, triathletes with the

455
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 2: VO two max of thirty five year olds. And the

456
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 2: data is that it's been well measured and well documented

457
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 2: and you know, things like that, and they're you know,

458
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've seen this or not. Some

459
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: of the triathlete results, especially in the distance runners. They're

460
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: now seeing people over fifty and over sixty start to

461
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 2: coming radically outperform the younger folks and they're not even

462
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 2: exactly sure why it's happening, but that's really interesting. And

463
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 2: certainly last thing I'll say is, I don't know if

464
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 2: you're familiar with the work of geriatric psychologist Gene Coney,

465
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 2: sort of the godfather peak performance aging. He basically discovered

466
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: as we come into our fifties and sixties, we gain

467
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 2: access to legitimate cognitive superpowers, whole new levels of thinking,

468
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 2: open up different thinking styles again, empathy and wisdom, and

469
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of other really useful greats come on,

470
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 2: like really don't even come on mindfully until our fifties

471
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: or sixties. So it's getting me. I think it's getting

472
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 2: really interesting in the field.

473
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: I love this message, and not just because because I'm old.

474
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: But you know, I've said this before to people. I

475
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: feel like, at fifty nine, my brain is better than

476
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: when my cognitive function, memory, my ability to you know,

477
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: resolve conflict, create, you know, pay attention, be focused, be disciplined,

478
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: b in the moment, it's better than when I was

479
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: twenty nine. And I think, you know, part of that's

480
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: because I've kind of been a lifelong learner and I

481
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 1: don't keep pushing. But you know, one of the things

482
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: that irks me, is you know this arbitrary kind of

483
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: voice that gets pumped out that, oh well, from twenty

484
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: five years of age, this starts to decline one percent

485
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: per year. You're losing muscle mass and bone densities and

486
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: all of these things that just gets spoken as gospel

487
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: while not actually saying. For many people typically if they

488
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: don't do anything, this is what happens. However, if you

489
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: live weights, if you run, if you stimulate your brain,

490
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: if you fucking think, if you study, if you have

491
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: an active lifestyle, if you eat less shit, if you

492
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: move more, if you don't have thirty beers that you know,

493
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: there are so many things that we can do, but

494
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: that doesn't get mentioned well.

495
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 2: And I mean it's what's funny is a bunch of things.

496
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: The proof more and more Kelly slip right, he's winning

497
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 2: surf titles, Tom Brady, et cetera. So the examples are

498
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 2: way more visible. But I'll tell you a funny story.

499
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 2: One of the first one of the first questions that

500
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: performed for me around peak performance agent because I was

501
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 2: studying peak performance and flow and that was my work

502
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: and I twenty five years ago I was going to

503
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 2: write I write novels every now and again. I wanted

504
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: to write a story about a cat burglar. There's this

505
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: really cool so chicks at Me High in some flow

506
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 2: research that nobody's ever seen, but it's really cool. Him

507
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: and a guy named Kevin Murthoon. They figured out that

508
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: most of the standard things that juvenile delinquents do, fightings, graffiti, chocolate,

509
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 2: those sorts of things aren't really about moral transgressions. They're

510
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: about kids trying to tune the challenge skills, balance and

511
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: use risk and thrill to drop into flow. And it's

512
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 2: really about finding their way into flow and much much

513
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 2: more than like moral transgressions. And I thought that was

514
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: a really neat theory and I'd have a grown up

515
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: version cat burglar whatever. And my cat burglar had to

516
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,959
Speaker 2: steal something, so I was like, well what should she steal?

517
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: And I started kind of figure out what's cool, what

518
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 2: hasn't showed up in a lot of books before. And

519
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 2: musical instruments, rare musical instruments is what I settled on.

520
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, who made the rarest musical

521
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 2: instruments in history? Where you know, got into the tables

522
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: and found out strata varius do my mind had made

523
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: fifty percent of all the rarest musical instruments in history,

524
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: like one, dude, fifty percent. That's like one painter, and

525
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: it's fifty percent of the most expensive painting. It's a

526
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: really strange thing. And I started, I was like, Okay,

527
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: this is fascinating. Forget the cat burglar, let me learn

528
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: more about strata areas. And then I learned that he

529
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: made two of the most famous and priceless musical instruments

530
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: in history when he was ninety two years old, and

531
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: I went, wait a minute. Everything I was told to

532
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: climbs fast, which muscle response, fine, motor decks, all this stuff.

533
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: There's no way in seventeen thirty six, a ninety two

534
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: year old guy makes two of the rarest and most

535
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 2: of the music leaderships in history. Unless something's wrong right,

536
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: unless he's a total exception to every rule, something's got

537
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 2: to be wrong with what we know about people performance agent.

538
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: It was one of the first times or agents that

539
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 2: I started to look at that go wait a minute,

540
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: this data doesn't like that doesn't make any sense. What's

541
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: going on.

542
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: I think there's a big gap between what is typical

543
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: and what is possible and that's what you're fascinating. That's

544
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: what I'm fascinated with. That's what our listeners are fascinated with.

545
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: Is Yeah, I know most people do this and most

546
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: people live this way. I followed Tony Hawk on Instagram

547
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: because I'm basically twelve, and he broke his You know

548
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: who he is, of course, tif do you know who

549
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: Tony Hawk is? You're you're not meant to. He's the

550
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: greatest skateboarder.

551
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: Is tell you a very funny Tony story and I'm

552
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: going to let me continue.

553
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,479
Speaker 1: No, no, you tell your holy turn thirty.

554
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: Yeah it's thirty. The same year Laird Hamilton, big Waves Sover,

555
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: turned thirty and Sean Palmer, one of the early pro snowboarders,

556
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: turned thirty one. ESPN sent me to do a story

557
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: on all three guys and they called it Grandpa's over

558
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: the Hills, like literally, like I still have the story.

559
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: It's called Grapas. Mind you, Tony has yet to throw

560
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 2: the nine hundred, so that's still the calm. He's also

561
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: has yet to found a billion dollar video game empire.

562
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 2: Laird hasn't surfed the millennium waves, so still in his teacher,

563
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: who's going to change the entire history of surfing, right.

564
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: It's just I look back on it and it just

565
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: cracks me up because they're all, as you know, still active,

566
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: they're all older than me, and they're all still kicking ass.

567
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're amazing. And well, anyway, as you know Tony

568
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: Broke's leg about I don't know, it would be about

569
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: sixteen weeks ago or something now. And it was interesting

570
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 1: because I saw that, I saw that kind of report

571
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: and I went, oh, I wonder, I wonder what he'll

572
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: do now, Like, I know he won't stop skating, but

573
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like, well, I hope he looks after himself,

574
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: and I hope he recovers and rehabs, you know, And

575
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: he was skating with a broken leg, I mean just

576
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: just kind of pushed himself along literally like a week later,

577
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: and he's sixteen weeks later now he's back doing tricks

578
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: and you know, he's still recovering and he's still rehabbing.

579
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: But the human body is incredible. And you know, when

580
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: I think, is it for you and for most people

581
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: in terms of exploring our outer limits, in terms of

582
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: what's possible for us physically, is it more of a

583
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: psychological or physiological process. It feels largely psychological with a

584
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: physiological outcome.

585
00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 2: I yeah, I think it's I mean, don't could me wrong?

586
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: You got to train like mad and you know what

587
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 2: I'm mean to do some of this stuff, But no,

588
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 2: it's all psychological, or most of it is psychological, even

589
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: some stuff. I'll here's one of the things that I

590
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: learned along the way, just to give you a random example.

591
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: So short version is, I learned that a lot of

592
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: the feeling like I'd wake up mid season and I'd

593
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: be like, feel wrecked. Just oh my god, I can

594
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 2: barely move. I don't want to go to the mountain anything,

595
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: but like, gott to hike my dog. So I ticked

596
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: the dog for a walk in through the mountains, and

597
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: you know, forty five minutes later, come back. Why not

598
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 2: stretch a little bit, feel a little bit better, go

599
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: to the mountains and start skiing, start pushing, and something

600
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 2: everything melts away. And I started to realize that a

601
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 2: lot of the so called feelings, body aches, that sort

602
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: of stuff that we associated with feeling our age are

603
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: really literally a performing anxiety. And once I sort of

604
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: pushed myself and pushed through that performance anxiety, my body

605
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 2: may comeback. And so many of the most spectaculary days

606
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 2: of my season, days where I would accomplish two or

607
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: three tricks on a trick list or really push things,

608
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: started out where I woke up feeling like, oh my god,

609
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 2: I can barely move, I'm old. I feel old, and like,

610
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: I mean, like so wrong planet thing. And you know,

611
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: I found that really interesting along the way, And certainly

612
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 2: one of the best parts about it is certainly flow

613
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: helps with that one, right, because a bunch of the

614
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: neurochomicals that und up in the state are really potent

615
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 2: pain or lievers, and they also reduce a lot of inflammation.

616
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: And one thing for sure, most of the cause, if

617
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 2: not all, the causes of agent are linked to information body,

618
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 2: so by its nature, you know, flow is useful in

619
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 2: that way as well.

620
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: M I think, what a lot of what you do,

621
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 1: maybe without even in tending it is it's this metacognitive challenge.

622
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: Is I think you challenge people to think about how

623
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: they think, like their existing cognitive default setting, like the

624
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: way that we think about the world and ourselves in

625
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: the world, and what is normal and what is good

626
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: and what is possible? And I think that you know,

627
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: because there isn't an inevitability for most people of thinking

628
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: a certain way as they age. So my question is

629
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: how do we I mean, you can't will yourself to

630
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: think differently, You can't sit on the couch just changing

631
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: the way that we think and our beliefs and our

632
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: expectations of ourself. Do you think that's a byproduct of

633
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: just doing shit that we haven't done and trying stuff

634
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 1: and falling down and getting up.

635
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: Versus so.

636
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: Versus, you know, just yeah, I mean I always say, like,

637
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: reading your book is good, Reading your book is good,

638
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: and it's going to blow people's mind and open doors

639
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: and but but what's on top of that? Yeah?

640
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, yeah, I think you if

641
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: you're wired at all like me, Like I'm cynical and skeptical.

642
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 2: I'm a journalist and a scientist, you know what I mean,

643
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 2: Like I aid to doubt everything in a sense, and

644
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 2: I always tell people like, don't take my work for it,

645
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like I I always say,

646
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 2: peak performance is nothing more or less than getting our

647
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: biology to work for us rather than against us. And

648
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,240
Speaker 2: it's that we like to see the flow research collective

649
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 2: of our work is on the neurobiology of peak performance,

650
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 2: because psychology is squishy and it's individual shaped by genetics

651
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 2: and early childood experiments. But the neurobiology is shaped by

652
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: evolution and shared by all of us, and we all

653
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: have it. And so there are you know, there are

654
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 2: on the couch tools reframing right of reframing is an

655
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 2: incredibly powerful pig performance tool that you know, you can

656
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: start using before you're running the experiments in your own life.

657
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: But I think the whole point is to take this

658
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 2: information it's based on science that works for all of us,

659
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: and go out and run the experiment in your own life.

660
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: You know, see what's actually possible. That's when it gets

661
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: That's when you're really going to believe it. You'll I

662
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 2: always say, you know, at the flow reas of collective

663
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 2: we hin a ton of people, right, tens of thousands

664
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: of thousands of people in one hundred and thirty countries,

665
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: and the hardest thing there are two things that are

666
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: really difficult. And it's one of the reasons actually, as

667
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: you'll notice in our country is sort of written as

668
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: a performance diary, and one of the reason it goes

669
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 2: day by day to the season, and this is one

670
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 2: of the reasons. This is exactly the reason. The two

671
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: lessons that are the hardest for me to get anybody

672
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: to understand that you have to discover for yourself. One,

673
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 2: hard work works right, and most people I don't even

674
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 2: know if they most people are willing to work hard,

675
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: they don't actually know what it looks like, what like

676
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 2: smart hard work really looks like. I've noticed. The second

677
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: thing that I've found is really difficult for people to

678
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: understand until they've had the experience, is that peak performance

679
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: you know, leaning on in our biology, performance always works

680
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 2: like compound interest, and until you know a little bit today,

681
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: a little bit tomorrow, a little bit the next day,

682
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: and the real result, I mean, you'll get spectacular interesting

683
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 2: results soon. But like the mind blowing I can't believe

684
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 2: where I am, Like what the hell happened in my life?

685
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 2: That's a year or two, you know what I mean.

686
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: You've got to stick with it, but it gets exponential.

687
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: It's really hard if you're at the front end of

688
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: that and haven't had that experience, especially if you don't

689
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: have flows sort of turbo boosting performance and learning and

690
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: all that stuff on a regular basis. It's hard to

691
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: understand that. So one of the goals of the book

692
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: was just to try to show people what that looks

693
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: like rather than just try to talk about it because

694
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 2: it doesn't you know, So.

695
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: Did you get any architecture, sorry, Stave? Did you get

696
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 1: any feedback from people you know in the space who

697
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: more advanced than you and more experienced than you that

698
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: kind of saw what you did and went, that's fucking impressive.

699
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: So here's what I did because I had to, like,

700
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 2: this was the fairest thing I could do. So there

701
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: is a park free style skiing commentator. His name is Nick.

702
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: He goes by steep Steep on YouTube. He does now

703
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 2: he commentates for red Bull and you know other stuff.

704
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 2: He does mountain biking too, but skiing and park skiing

705
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: is his thing. And he was he was on the

706
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: Canadian Free Scout team and broke his back and when

707
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: he was recovering from the broken back that he launched

708
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 2: this channel and you know, it blew up and now

709
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: he's all over the place. So halfway through my experiment,

710
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 2: I didn't know him, but I took all the footage

711
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 2: that we had. We had shot a bunch of footage

712
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: you may, and I called them up and I said look,

713
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 2: I said, I need somebody to explain what freestyle skiing

714
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 2: and park skiing is to my readers, right, and I

715
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 2: also need somebody to put what I'm doing in context.

716
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: I was like, this is the footage, make a video.

717
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 2: I need you to explain what freestyle skiing is and

718
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 2: put what I'm doing in context and tell the fucking truth.

719
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:21,919
Speaker 2: If you need to make fun of me, make fun

720
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: of me. I don't like whatever. You know, have that.

721
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 2: So we made that. That's getting released on the website

722
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 2: for the book. At the same time the book comes out,

723
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 2: there's also you know, there's video of me skiing, you know,

724
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 2: so you can see it in there's video of the experiments.

725
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 2: You can see what it looks like. And so yeah,

726
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: we you know, we we did. You know, we checked

727
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: ourselves that way as much as possible.

728
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: What was his critique, If you can tell us what

729
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: do we need?

730
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 2: I mean, he he uh, he actually couldn't believe how

731
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 2: far I got and he couldn't like, he couldn't believe

732
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: I was doing it at fifty three and uh, because

733
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 2: the thing about park skiing is every inch churps. It's

734
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 2: just like like you hit the ground, you hit metal

735
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 2: objects you hit like it's just every inch it can

736
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 2: be really difficult. And he I think he recognized that,

737
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: but no, he was. He was people folks have been impressed.

738
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 2: I'm not impressed by the way. Let me be clear,

739
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 2: I'm not where I want to be at all. Like

740
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: the videos and like the things of me screaming, I'm

741
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 2: I have a problem with it. It's like I want to,

742
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 2: you know, I want to compare myself to Alex Hall

743
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 2: or you know, top Parks, Gears or whatever. Like I'm

744
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: unwilling to accept that I'm an intermediate on the learning

745
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: curve and not you know. So it's very It's really

746
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: it's funny because everybody loves the videos and I I'm like, okay,

747
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 2: you know all right, like I did it, and like

748
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: it's fair and it's honest, it's truthful. But like god,

749
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 2: I wish it looked like this instead of like what

750
00:41:58,480 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 2: you know?

751
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,439
Speaker 1: Of course, do you think that I've asked a couple

752
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: of people this question. I wonder what your answer is.

753
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: Do you think that ambition and drive can coexist with

754
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: contentment and satisfaction?

755
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: Yes, but I did not until three or four years ago.

756
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: Right what happened?

757
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: I did not. It took me a really long time,

758
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: and it really I mean, this is a sort of awful,

759
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: wonderful thing to say out loud, and I'm deeply grateful.

760
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: But I like I worked. I was very very poor

761
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 2: for a very very long time. You know, I do

762
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 2: work very very hard. But I'm finally doing exactly what

763
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 2: I want to do in the world all day long, right,

764
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: I'm doing the research I want to, you know. But yes,

765
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 2: there's some you know, altruistic causes. I wish I could

766
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 2: advance a lot farther and faster than I am. But

767
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: as a general rule, like my days are spent doing

768
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 2: exactly what I feel most useful I'm built for, and

769
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 2: that is and in what it allows me. It doesn't.

770
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 2: It never got I don't know if you've discovered this.

771
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that was hardest for

772
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 2: me to learn is it doesn't get easier. I somehow

773
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: thought it was going to get easier, you know what

774
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 2: I mean. You get better at it, for sure, and

775
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: it's much more fulfilling and meaningful, but it is no easier.

776
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 2: In fact, it's probably harder. And I was shocked by that.

777
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 2: I was shocked. I was like, are you kidding me.

778
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: I want my money back, seriously, I want to talk

779
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: to management. But it turns out, you know, life, satisfaction

780
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 2: and meaning, those those things start rising in a way

781
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: that I did not expect, and that's that's kind of

782
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 2: fun and interesting.

783
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: Did I stay hard because you keep turning up the

784
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,919
Speaker 1: volume on the skill level or yes, you know, yeah,

785
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 1: it's it's hard because you might get hot.

786
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 2: Well, So one flows data triggers right preconditions the lead

787
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 2: to flow, and the most famous is the Challenge Skills Balance.

788
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: It says, if you want to drop into flow the

789
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 2: easiest way and the challenge that hask needs to slightly

790
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 2: exceed your skill sets, you want to stretch but not snap.

791
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: Chickst me high, by the way, has argued. People are

792
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 2: aware of this. He does it really eloquently in a

793
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: couple different books. His book Optal Experience is the one

794
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 2: where he's clearest about this. He believes flow is literally

795
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 2: the mechanism of the adult development. It is what propels

796
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 2: us forward because we are pushed on our skills and

797
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 2: on the other end of it, that's expertise, that's wisdom,

798
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: and it makes us more adaptive as organisms. And it's

799
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 2: this cycle that we build upon continuously. He makes a

800
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: very elegant argument, and there's a bunch of sort of

801
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 2: different research coming out of different aspects of neurobiology that

802
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: back his argument up. And I think we're trying to

803
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 2: do some research on it at the Flow Research Collective too,

804
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,919
Speaker 2: because we think he's right. But it definitely like, I'm

805
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 2: a flow junkie. So I'm going to keep you know,

806
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to keep pushing, and you know I do it,

807
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,280
Speaker 2: and even you know, I always say in my books

808
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 2: there's always a communication challenge, right, like the thing I

809
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 2: want to tell you, but I always there's always some

810
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 2: other challenge that I set for myself because I like

811
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 2: it when I have to like this. I need my

812
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 2: books to scare me a little bit, you know what

813
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: I mean. It helps hold my attention, and I want

814
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,240
Speaker 2: to push on myself. And so every book I write,

815
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: I'll push on the writing style or I'll push on

816
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 2: the something or other, and you know, just just stretch myself.

817
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 2: And you know, I sort of I do that, do

818
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 2: that and everything. I just but to me, I just

819
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 2: feel like I've got a lot of unfinished business. So

820
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: until it starts to feel finished, you know what, I mean,

821
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 2: I can't stop pushing because I'm not done.

822
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 1: Does your work feel like work?

823
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 2: No, it's never felt like work. I mean it's you know,

824
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: I it. It took me a while to realize that.

825
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 2: I say this when I when I train other writers

826
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 2: or other creators, it took me a while they realize

827
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 2: that you're always going to be somebody's bitch. There's always

828
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how big you get,

829
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: where you are, how much moscle you have, how much

830
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: you were, You're gonna work for somebody sooner later. And

831
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 2: the truth of the matter is the funniest thing is

832
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 2: even in like the parts of my life where like

833
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 2: I've been very successful my writing, you get to the top,

834
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: and one trust me when I tell you published doesn't

835
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 2: really care, like they got they got a dozen to me.

836
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 2: But like then you end up with a fan base

837
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: and holy shit, are they tough right, Like they like

838
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 2: what you do and they don't love it when you

839
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 2: debates too far for you know what I mean. And

840
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: for a guy who's always wants to push in new directions,

841
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: that's an interesting thing. But it took me a little

842
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 2: while to figure out like that equation A little bit.

843
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: It took me so like I'm trained as a poet.

844
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 2: I'm an old school punk rocker. I didn't know I

845
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 2: had to taught in business, you know, the whole way up.

846
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 2: And I've just I was involved in like twenty seven

847
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 2: startups along the way, so I like, I saw a

848
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 2: lot of what didn't work. I saw a lot of

849
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: what you know, that sort of stuff. It took a

850
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 2: while to figure that stuff out. And so you know

851
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 2: now still even in business, the challenges are really interesting,

852
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 2: and I'm like, Okay, you know, what else can we do?

853
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 2: My company just got named one of the two hundreds

854
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 2: of or one of the fastest growing companies in America. Great, check,

855
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 2: what else can we do? Let's keep going?

856
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: That's amazing. I have a random question. Then, this is

857
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: the exercise physiologist in me, and I could I would

858
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 1: not ask a lighty this, but I'll ask you what's

859
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: your hot and white.

860
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 2: When now five one hundred and fifty one pounds?

861
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: Oh wow? So what's that six seventy sixty guys? Oh,

862
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: you're a lot. You're an athlete, you're an endurance athlete.

863
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: I'm really not boom you could be, but I really,

864
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 2: I'm really actually not. People look at me. It's funny

865
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 2: because I can. I'm an extreme actomorph. So the hardest

866
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: thing for me to do is gain weight, and I

867
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 2: will lose like ski sees now lose ten to twelve pounds.

868
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 2: And by the end of ski season, when I like

869
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 2: go give speeches or things like that, you always people

870
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: are very polite about that. Come up you like, so

871
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: you're a runner.

872
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a pal lift dude. What I will

873
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: tell you.

874
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 2: The true story, true story. When I graduated high school,

875
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,240
Speaker 2: I was nineteen years old or I was one hundred

876
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: and thirty eight pounds in the same height as I

877
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 2: am now. And one of the one of the you know,

878
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 2: one of the great things for me is it took

879
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 2: me like ten years to actually like put on muscle

880
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 2: and get I worked from one hundred and thirty nine

881
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: up to one hundred and seventy through weightlifting. But I

882
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 2: remember maybe Tiffany I mentioned that. I think I said

883
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 2: this to you when we were talking, right, I was

884
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: five years into lifting weights. I was working out in

885
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: my gym in San Francisco and this big dude walk Saturday.

886
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: It just like sort of punches me and the children's

887
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: like stick with it, buddy, You'll get there. Eventually. We

888
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 2: all put on muscle. Though I was I was so enraged, Like, dude,

889
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: five years there, You're like five fucking years I've been

890
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 2: doing this.

891
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 1: That that is hilarious when you.

892
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 2: Tell me the story about the woman who like just

893
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: got to beast mode in six weeks. Yeah, lucky her.

894
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 1: A bit. There's a bit of genetics and that. Now

895
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: there's a bit of This is a hard question and

896
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: silly question. I'm just interested because it's luck asking a

897
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: parent which of their kids is their favorite, but not

898
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: necessarily what is apart from your new book, which is

899
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 1: called Knock Country everyone add in February next year. Apart

900
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: from that, not what is the best book, but what

901
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: is your favorite book that you've written, and why if

902
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: there is one, Like just on a personal level, what's

903
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: the book that either you're most proud of, or you

904
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: learned the most in, or you have the deepest connection with.

905
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 2: It's interesting that both Tomorrowland and are Impossible are like

906
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 2: there's like thirty years of research either, but they neither.

907
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 2: It's either Rise of Superman, which is the book I

908
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 2: wrote about action sports, and it's the reason is I

909
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: think it's got the best writing. Yeah, it's the best

910
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 2: example of art. And what I mean by that is literally,

911
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 2: I can It's hard to read your old books, but

912
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: I can make up Rise of Superman and I can

913
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: get through like eighty or ninety or one hundred pages

914
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 2: and sort of like before something catches me and I

915
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: go off, Fuck, what what I do with that paragraph?

916
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

917
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: Yeah?

918
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 2: And that's that is amazing. And the tip of them

919
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 2: is I think the book I'm proud of Steff because

920
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 2: it required a lot of bravery that's totally invisible now

921
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 2: and you can't see it. But West did Jesus, which

922
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 2: was a book. It was one of my first books.

923
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 2: It was my first book on these topics. It was

924
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 2: really about the intersection of surfing as a trigger for flow,

925
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:25,399
Speaker 2: really the neurobiology of spirituality, uh and in neuroscience so like,

926
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 2: but I wrote it so early, there was nobody was

927
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 2: doing this work right. Nobody would like it was ridiculous.

928
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 2: This was, you know, trying to write about the science

929
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 2: of spirituality could have been a career, and trying to

930
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 2: write about like spiritual experiences and surfing with the neurobiology,

931
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 2: like I thought to myself of this goes fucking wrong,

932
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be like I'm going to write Jonathan Livingston's

933
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 2: Seagull for you know, like it's the poor man's Jonathan

934
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 2: living signal I to be done as a serious journalist,

935
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: as a science writer, like I don't great. It was

936
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 2: gradually greatly over excenterated, like my impact on the world

937
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 2: in terms of like what he cared about what that

938
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 2: book did. But at the time for me, as a

939
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 2: guy like especially coming up as first a journalist and

940
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: then a science journalist and really a self taught science journalist,

941
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 2: to write a book about neuroscience with like you know,

942
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,360
Speaker 2: not with new ideas, but it was a big that

943
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 2: was a hard leap for me. I was as a journalist,

944
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 2: I was taught to stay in the sidelines right like

945
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 2: I don't have an opinion, I covered the opinion right

946
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: like it was. So I had to switch roles. I

947
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 2: had to make myself more visible and part of the story.

948
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 2: I'd do a bunch of stuff, And I also had

949
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 2: to solve a bunch of writing problems that I never

950
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 2: in the first decade of my career as a novelist,

951
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 2: I couldn't solve or as a journalist for that point,

952
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: so like the writing was a big step forward. It's

953
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: really fun to this day. I think there's probably a

954
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: copy of West to Jesus in almost every surf shack

955
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 2: in the world, and for some people they might want

956
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 2: different kinds of like that's what I need, Like if

957
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 2: there's a copy of like my books that again, like

958
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 2: most of the surf shacks in the world, I sort

959
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 2: of did my job. I'm glad. So that's it's one

960
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 2: of the two.

961
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. Rise of Superman was brilliant. You

962
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: know who loves that book and talks about it quite

963
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 1: a lot is only the biggest podcaster on the planet

964
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: is Rogan. He loves that book. He's spoken about it

965
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: many times.

966
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's Joe's Joe's been really nice. He's great. By

967
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 2: the way, that that man you want to talk about

968
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 2: an intense podcast, he does not. He may be a comedian,

969
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 2: he does not suffer fools. Gladly, no step it into

970
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 2: the rig. Yeah, if you watch the podcast they did

971
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 2: with Joe, there's a point about an hour and fifteen

972
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,720
Speaker 2: minutes in where he stops and looks at me and goes, oh, wow,

973
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 2: you're an interesting dude, you've done some stuff and it

974
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 2: was really the first white and like where something. He's like, Oh,

975
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 2: I'm going to take you seriously down. You're right, and

976
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 2: I was like, it's a it was a dead area.

977
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 1: Did you did you Did you do any prep for that? Nothing?

978
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: I don't know what.

979
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 2: Okay, So here's this horrible storied. I apologies to Edward involved.

980
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 2: I don't watch podcast don't listen to podcasts. Like if

981
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 2: I got free time, I read neuroscience text. So I

982
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 2: had no idea who Joe Rogan was. So as we

983
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 2: were going there.

984
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: You've been living under a rock, bro.

985
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 2: But my good friend Michael Ward, who's my editor, came

986
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 2: with me and on the way he's like, you know,

987
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 2: he's a big deal. And I was like what do

988
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 2: you mean. He's like, oh yeah, I want to sit

989
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 2: in like he's that And I was like, you want

990
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 2: like Michael knows everybody, you know what I mean? You

991
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 2: know you can pause that. It was like you want

992
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 2: to sit in? That was the first A league. I

993
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 2: was like, where the hell am I going? What is this? Yeah?

994
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 2: I literally apologized to Joe and his crew. I had

995
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 2: no idea. I walked into Joe Brogan totally blind. I

996
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 2: didn't realize it was gonna be a four and a

997
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 2: half hour marathon where you don't go to the bathroom

998
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 2: and you.

999
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: Like, you know, yeah, speaking of endurance events, going on

1000
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan is without doubt one of the greatest bloody

1001
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: interview endurance events of all time. Stephen, I really appreciate

1002
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 1: talking to you. I would love to get you back.

1003
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 1: I've got so many more things I want to ask you,

1004
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,839
Speaker 1: but we appreciate you having a chat with us. Good

1005
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 1: luck with the new book. There's so many books everyone

1006
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: go and check go and check them all out. But

1007
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: the new one is out soon. Nah Country, I'm excited

1008
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,439
Speaker 1: to read it. Stay there. We'll say goodbye off air,

1009
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: but for the moment, thanks so much for being on

1010
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: the You project.

1011
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 2: We appreciate you my pleasure.

1012
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,919
Speaker 1: Thank you, Craig, Thank you Tiffany, Thanks Steven, Thanks tiff

1013
00:55:58,200 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 1: Thanks guys,