1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average persons never 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. 14 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. If I 15 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: said the name Cassie Sainsbury, a lot of people wouldn't 16 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: recognize the name. But if I said cocaine Cassie, I'm 17 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: sure it would resonate with people. Well, the fact is 18 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: that that is the same person. And today we're going 19 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: to be speaking to Cassie Sainsbury and find out a 20 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: little bit about the person she is and talk to 21 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: her about her time, where she spent three years in 22 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: the Colombian prison. She's only twenty two years of age 23 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: at the time, a young lady from South Australia, and 24 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: I can't personally think of a more terrifying place to 25 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: spend a couple of years. We've been trying to get 26 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: Cassie on I Catch Killers for a while and she's 27 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: agreed to come on the podcast. So Cassie Sainsbury, Welcome 28 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: to I Catch Killers. 29 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: Hi, thanks for having me. 30 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: Well, I've heard so much about you, like I'm sure 31 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: most people in Australia have heard about you and speaking 32 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: to you before the podcast, and when we caught up 33 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: yesterday it became apparent to me that the perception that 34 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: people have of you is not necessarily the type of 35 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: person that you are. And yeah, we've got a long 36 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: time to sit down and have a chat now, and 37 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: I'd really like to find out. 38 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: Who you are so absolutely. 39 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: I have spent last couple of days reading your book 40 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: titled Cocaine Cassie, and I've got to say what you 41 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: experience in the Colombian prison, I've got to say to me, 42 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: it seems like one of the most terrifying places you 43 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 1: could be did you at any time in the three 44 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: or so years that you spent in the prison think 45 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: you weren't going to make it? 46 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: Hm, There was actually so many occasions when I just 47 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: didn't think I personally had the ability to keep pushing 48 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: through certain obstacles that kept coming up throughout the time 49 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: in prison. But only that, I mean from that moment, 50 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 2: the moment I walked in that prison, I never thought 51 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 2: i'd leave it, To be honest, I thought I would 52 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: definitely come out in a body bag, and it was 53 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 2: a bit of a judgmental thought on my behalf as well. Obviously, 54 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: walking through the prison, I was face with some interesting 55 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 2: characters and instantly you go, oh, crap, I'm not safe 56 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 2: here type thing. And it's just through all visual because 57 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: obviously there's some interesting looking people in there. And I 58 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: learned very quickly not to judge a book by its cover, 59 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: but only that it was terribly hard to just keep 60 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: finding a reason to keep pushing and get through it 61 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 2: all at the end of the day, which was I 62 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 2: think for me, once I finally found my way through, 63 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: I guess the dark period that most people would actually 64 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: face being in prison. It was this I wasn't going 65 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: to let this prison, this time be the end of me. 66 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: It wasn't going to be it for me because it 67 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: wasn't who I am. 68 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: Will you show to my way of thinking? You showed 69 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: amazing strength to get through it. And my observation is 70 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: you came through it with humanity as well, which is 71 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: not easy in a place like that, like I think 72 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: it was in your book, but some scary looking characters. 73 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 3: Characters a lady. 74 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: That had her cheeks sliced so she could stick a 75 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: tongue out through the holes in the side of a cheek. 76 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 3: That would freak me out. 77 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: She was probably one of my first encounters, and she 78 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 2: absolutely scared the begizis out of me. And you know 79 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 2: when you see something and you don't want to look, 80 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: but then you're so intrigued that you look. That was 81 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: kind of what happened with her a lot, because it 82 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: was just so full on seeing someone like that with 83 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 2: so many scars, so many cuts everywhere, and I just 84 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: she was scary. 85 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: She was so scary, and she made herself known to you. 86 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: It wasn't like you just walked past her and let 87 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: bygones be bygones. She came up and got right in 88 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: your face. 89 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, straight away. And I still to this day, I 90 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: don't actually really know how I made an enemy of 91 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: her so quickly. But then again, being a foreigner, and 92 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: I think this is something that I did go into 93 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: a little bit in the book, being a foreigner and 94 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: being that it was almost this instant disrespect to them, 95 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: and being obviously what they call a gringer. I come 96 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: from money. I have money. I have it. I was 97 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: probably you know, stashing it everywhere when I walked in prison, 98 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 2: which is presume what they thought I had done. And 99 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: so it was just this huge intimidation straight away, and 100 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 2: I don't know what she thought of me, because I I, oh, 101 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: my goodness, I was so close to poop and myself 102 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 2: because it was just so scary, And I can't even 103 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: sometimes find the words speaking out loud to explain how 104 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: scary it is to walk through a prison in a 105 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: different country, not understanding anything, and then start getting intimidated 106 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 2: by these people and still having them like right here 107 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: in your face and not understanding anything, and then later 108 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 2: obviously going through a great ordeal with this lady. 109 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's to put it in context. It was 110 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: the first time you travel overseas. 111 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 3: I believe. 112 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, you didn't speak Spanish. No, you had blonde 113 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: hair in the South American prison. Yeah, it's not like 114 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: I would imagine being in prison. The way that you 115 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: want to get through it is not stick your head up, 116 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: not be noticed, and just do your time and keep 117 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: out of everyone's way. 118 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 3: That was an option available to you from day one? 119 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:50,679 Speaker 3: Was it? 120 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: It wasn't. And it didn't matter how much I tried 121 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: to stay out of people's way, stay hidden in cells, 122 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: it didn't. It just obviously it didn't help as well 123 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: that there was such a public awareness that obviously, you know, 124 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: even over in Colombia, my whole case was still on 125 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: TV over there, So even if I'd gone in and 126 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: no one known who I was or anything, they were 127 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: still seeing it on the TV and going, oh, if 128 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: she's on the TV, she must have money. You know 129 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: what can we get out of her? You know what, 130 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 2: can we sell stuff? Can we go to the media, 131 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: this and that? And it was just if I was 132 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: getting attached from the outside, I was getting attacked on 133 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: the inside. I was getting I had so many issues 134 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 2: between obviously my family stuff as well, so there was 135 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: no real time for me to kind of get my 136 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,559 Speaker 2: own head together and actually worked myself through those first 137 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: initial months. It was an absolute nightmare. 138 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people, even the way 139 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: you talk about it there, and this came across not 140 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: just through your book, but in the chat that we 141 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: had the other day, that people had this misconception that, oh, 142 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: you're doing it easy in prison because you smile when 143 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: you talk. I suspect and this might be the old 144 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: copy in me coming. You smile when you get nervous too, 145 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: and I think people sort of misinterpret that that, oh know, 146 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: this was a walk in the park. It was so 147 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: far from a walk in the park. We're going to 148 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: talk about it later on in the podcast, but we're 149 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: talking some horrible sexual assaults, some violence, stabbing, all sorts 150 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: of brutality that occurred in there. And I'll save it up, 151 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: but I'm still traumatized by what happened to you in 152 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: the dentist chair. And I don't think anyone will go 153 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: to the dentist after that. But yeah, it was a 154 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: foreign environment for you, and I just I want listeners, 155 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: because we've got time on a podcast like this, I 156 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: want listeners to get a sense of who you were 157 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: growing up. Describe your childhood, those bits that those bits 158 00:08:58,640 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: that you're comfortable in describing. 159 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, that's okay. My childhood was I had it. 160 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 2: I had a good childhood to a certain degree. I 161 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 2: had a dad who constantly provided, never went without anything. 162 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: But then I also had my dad. My dad is 163 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: very straight. My dad grew up with he was, you know, 164 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 2: from boys, and then he had two girls and my sister. 165 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: My sister was my sister, and then there was me 166 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 2: and he was so he had me in this little bubble. 167 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: I rarely went out, you know after hours. I didn't 168 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: go to parties, I didn't drink, I didn't do any 169 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: of these sorts of things. And I think because there 170 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 2: was always so many there was so much around revolved 171 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 2: around my dad, that it was this constant fear of 172 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 2: letting him down. Because obviously when my mom left me 173 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: with my dad when I was twelve or thirteen, that 174 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: broke my world. Oh I'm going to get a bit michell. 175 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 2: It absolutely just one day my mum and dad were 176 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: arguing and then she just up and left, and that 177 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: there my world just broke because then I watched the 178 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: strongest man in my life break. It was it was 179 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 2: scary to see this man just absolutely break through that 180 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 2: period of time, and I was there with him and 181 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 2: I and I went through everything with him, and so 182 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 2: there was always this constant fear of letting him down 183 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: or seeing him, you know, be let down, that I 184 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: wasn't going in the right path, and it ends up 185 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 2: controlling you a little bit that you live with this 186 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 2: constant fear of And then obviously my sexuality came into 187 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 2: it as well because my dad's side of the family 188 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: they're Anglican Christians, and so then I was terrified of 189 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: coming out. I lived in small towns. I got bullied 190 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 2: because somebody said at a younger age that I was gay. 191 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 2: So there was just this constant background of being bullied, 192 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: being bullied because I was fat, being bullied because I 193 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: got my hair cut a certain way, being bullied because 194 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: I didn't wear may cut, being bullied because I didn't 195 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 2: go out partying. It was so having this super low 196 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: self esteem, this fear of failure, being stuck in a 197 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 2: closet and not wanting to be bullied more because I'd 198 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: already copped so much. It was very very overbearing growing 199 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 2: up with those situations. Obviously, there are a lot worse 200 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 2: and worse things people can go through, but to someone 201 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 2: I think I went through this through the age of thirteen, 202 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 2: thirteen to seventeen, So it's really those age where you 203 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: start finding a personality, start finding some character, and I 204 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 2: just that kept falling down further and further because I 205 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 2: just I didn't like myself. 206 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for sharing that, because when you look back 207 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: at those crucial years, it does have a dramatic effect 208 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: on the person you turn out to be. And unpacking 209 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: a few of those things like marriage, break up. You 210 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: never know how it's going to impact on the children, 211 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: but you know it's going to impact on the children. 212 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: And I can imagine you carrying the burden of trying 213 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: to protect your father even though he's your father because 214 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: the mother, your mother's left, so all sorts of issues 215 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: issues there. And on this podcast, you're not the first 216 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: person that's come out and said how traumatic their childhood 217 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: was because they were suppressing their sexuality. We've had tough 218 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: guy blokes growing up in country towns where they couldn't 219 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: come out because the last person they saw come out 220 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: as gay was bashed and by the father's friends and 221 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 1: the stigma, and you look at it you look at 222 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: it now and you think, well, what's the issue. But 223 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: the world was a different place not that long ago, 224 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: and I would imagine a country town in South Australia 225 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: would have a different view than say where we're recording 226 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: in the West Sydney about someone coming out as gay. 227 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: So all those things do impact on you, and you 228 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: know the fact that you share it and even sharing 229 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: it it still brings up those emotions. So we get 230 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: you to seventeen, you're stunted. Stunted in terms of your 231 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: emotional development. I think we're saying that in the kindest way. 232 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: What sort of life were you're looking for as a 233 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,839 Speaker 1: seventeen year old? You were trying to break out and 234 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: find your feet. 235 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there was a lot of paths that 236 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 2: I wanted to go down, and at one point I 237 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 2: wanted to be a chef and I really focused on that, 238 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 2: and then there was this huge breakdown, another family breakdown 239 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: with my mom and my stepdad, which kind of caused 240 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: me to actually head back from the city to your peninsula. 241 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: Whereas I decided that I needed to find a different passion. 242 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: Something that has always been inside of me is I 243 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: want to help people, doesn't matter in what sense, I 244 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 2: just wanted to help people. So then I started thinking 245 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: about obviously fitness and nutrition and trying to help people 246 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: that have that very similar body this morphia aspect. As 247 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: I said, I grew up being bullied about my parents, 248 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 2: so it was wanting to, I guess, help people feel 249 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 2: better about that and finish year twelve, then I started 250 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: studying fitness and nutrition. It's doing really well. I had 251 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: a boyfriend, and you know what, it was hard. It 252 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: was so hard having a boyfriend because there's just no 253 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: sexual attraction when you don't like the opposite sex. So 254 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: being in this relation where someone constantly obviously wants the 255 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: intimacy and you almost feel like you can't you can't connect. 256 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: So the relationship was really touch and go as it 257 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: was and then, but at the same time he was 258 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: still there. It was almost being accustomed to just having 259 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 2: him there, you know, not being alone, because I had 260 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 2: this fear of being alone, because being alone means that 261 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: I was left with my own thoughts. I had failed 262 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: at being able to I guess be somebody is company 263 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: type thing. It was heaps of the things that go 264 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 2: through your head. 265 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: Well, Cassie, what you're saying there. I think it's you know, 266 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: it's what we are as humans. We want that companionship 267 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: and all that. And you found yourself in the situation 268 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: that obviously wasn't ideal if you weren't sexually attracted to 269 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: the person you're going out with. So I would imagine 270 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: you're fighting a lot of demons, personal demons that in 271 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: that situation. 272 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, And and this guy in particular, he was kind 273 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 2: of he was my boyfriend coming out of school, and 274 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: it was always this if I've got a boyfriend and 275 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 2: no one will say anything type thing. Ah, little do 276 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: people know that Obviously one of his best friends was gay, 277 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 2: and I had the biggest crash on her. But it 278 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: was fine. 279 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 3: But so. 280 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 2: Anyway, UH finished my PT stuff and then I was 281 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 2: doing mobile PT and it was doing really well. And 282 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 2: so then I kind of decided, if I'm gonna if 283 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 2: I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna believe in myself. I 284 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: really have to put myself on the line and actually 285 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: put it all out there. So I went and decided 286 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 2: to open a gym. 287 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 3: How old were you then? 288 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: I was nineteen? 289 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 3: Pretty gutsy. 290 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 2: Oh, it was terribly gutsy. Uh, I use all of 291 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: my savings to buy all the equipment that I could buy, 292 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 2: got alone to get everything else that I needed, and 293 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 2: theoretically it was fool proof. So I thought, if I'd 294 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 2: done so well mobile and had all these clients, well, 295 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: even if I don't get that many memberships, I've still 296 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: got my clients to fall back on. But unfortunately, probably 297 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 2: about four or five months into it, I started getting 298 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: really depressed, obviously watching this year that I've just invested 299 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 2: everything that I have in paying off a debt for 300 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: a loan, paying rent, and I realized that I wasn't 301 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 2: moving forward, but I was actually starting to move backwards, 302 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 2: and I was terrified, and I went into this really 303 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 2: dark place again, popping back to obviously being in a relationship, 304 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: but I didn't really want to be in. It was this, 305 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 2: it was there, and we ended up having We ended 306 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,239 Speaker 2: up breaking up, and again I felt like I had 307 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 2: failed because I can't even keep I can't even keep 308 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 2: someone around, and so I actually tried to kill myself. 309 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: I just felt like I didn't want to feel pain anymore, 310 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 2: so over this constant disappointment within myself, never being able 311 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: to do anything good enough. And when I came to 312 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,479 Speaker 2: I was sitting. I was in the Yorktown Hospital and 313 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 2: I still remember this so well because the nurse that 314 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 2: I had, she was almost angry with me that I 315 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: was there, and she was trying to get my ivy 316 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 2: into my arm, and so she stuck the ivy in, 317 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 2: and she I have sinking veins when I get nervous 318 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 2: and whatnot with it. I don't like needles, and so 319 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 2: she stuck it in missed the vein and while she's 320 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,959 Speaker 2: got the ivy needle in, she's moving around trying to 321 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 2: get the vein and it was so antagonizing, and she 322 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 2: kind of looked at me and she goes, well, you're 323 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 2: you gonna do this again? It's and it stuck to 324 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 2: me and I was like, this is what you say 325 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 2: to someone right now, like I'm not in a good place. 326 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 2: And I was angry. I was so angry that I 327 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 2: that I was there because I really did not want 328 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: to be there. 329 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 3: You did more than wake up. 330 00:19:54,760 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 2: No, like I was. So I guess by so many 331 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 2: years of all these feelings that I just felt like 332 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: I couldn't keep doing it, that I didn't have that 333 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 2: strength to keep pushing through and finding reasons or thinking 334 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: that it was going to get better. So that happened. 335 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 2: And then when I was actually this was over a 336 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: Father's Day weekend, and obviously I didn't see my dad. 337 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 2: I was in hospital for four days. Nobody came to 338 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 2: visit me. Once I was alone because of my veins. They, 339 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: as I said, I don't have good veins to get 340 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 2: blood out. My nurses started trying to get blood out 341 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 2: of the veins between my groin, like that was a 342 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 2: pain that I don't So I was almost being alone, 343 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 2: being stuck with my own thoughts, not being relatively happy 344 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 2: that I was still there, and then not that I 345 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 2: was being tortured, but in my head, it felt like 346 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 2: I was being tortured. And then when I finally get 347 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: released after being cleared by the psychiatrist, I go back 348 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 2: to the house and coming back to an empty house 349 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: and not just symbolically an empty house because I didn't 350 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 2: have a partner anymore, literally an empty house. But then 351 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 2: there was this quick moment there where I was like, 352 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 2: sit happens. Everything happens for a reason, and I had 353 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 2: to keep reminding myself that, you know, maybe this breakup's 354 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: finally what I needed to find this strength to kind 355 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: of go you know what I've hit rock bottom. Can't 356 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 2: get any worse if I come out now, but I 357 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 2: still couldn't. 358 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: I just wanted to take you back to a comment 359 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: that you made that and I understand this, and let's 360 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: just clarify it, that said that what you went through, 361 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: other people have gone through a lot worse. There's always 362 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: someone that suffers more than you. But the point I 363 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: want to say to you, because you've been very open, 364 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: open with us talking about deeply personal personal issues, is 365 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: that it's all relative, like of an impact. If the 366 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: worst thing that's happened to you, it is the worst 367 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: thing that's happened to you, if. 368 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 3: You know what I mean. 369 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: People are you know, there's different levels. We understand that, 370 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: but you know what you're going through. 371 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 3: It's sad. 372 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: It's sad hearing you tell the story, and there's a 373 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of pain there. So I do 374 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: get it. So I'm not sitting here going oh yeah, 375 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: but other people have suffered suffered worse. This is what 376 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: was impacting on you, and at that age to consider 377 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: life might be better if you weren't here, that's quite 378 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: quite hard to deal with. So you are well, you 379 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 1: feel like you're rock bottom at that point in time, 380 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: but you went further. 381 00:22:54,280 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 3: Yes, okay, tell us through the next how you got. 382 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: From that situation where your life went. And let me 383 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: say this, everyone, and so many people have sat where 384 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: you're sitting speaking to us on I catchkillers. A lot 385 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: of us make poor life choices. And you're not judged 386 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: by the choices you made in the past. You judge 387 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: by the way you've lived your life in totality, So 388 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: I say that to you, and I want you to 389 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: feel comfortable in talking about where your life took you. 390 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 2: Okay. So after that part of my life, I decided 391 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 2: to live because unfortunately over well not unfortunately, but in 392 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 2: that present moment of my life, there was always I 393 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 2: was constantly going to be running into people that would 394 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 2: be like, oh, you guys broke up. Why did you 395 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 2: break up? Oh you tried to kill yourself. Oh that's 396 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 2: you know, very dodgy. I decided that I needed to leave. 397 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 2: I needed to start fresh. So I moved to Adelaide 398 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: and straightway when I got a job at anytime fitness, 399 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: I wasn't going to let that part fall down. And 400 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 2: in the meantime, obviously switching my life from moving to Adelaide. 401 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: I had to close down the gym, basically went into liquidation, 402 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 2: then sold the equipment to pay off the loans, sold 403 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 2: the equipment to pay off the rent contract as well, 404 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 2: so that when I actually did leave, I wasn't owing 405 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: anything to those things. It was a very quick moving process, 406 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: and I think sometimes that's why people were like, oh, yeah, 407 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: she just uped and left. But I didn't do it 408 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: in the wrong way, like I wasn't leaving things without 409 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 2: having a solution to it, because I don't believe in 410 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 2: that either. So I'd rather have nothing and start with 411 00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: nothing again, but have obviously taken responsibility that so I 412 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 2: get to Adelaide. I'm working at anytime fitness doing okay, 413 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: not great the work. I think back then working in 414 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: a gym, it was very commission based, so it wasn't great. 415 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 2: You worked a lot of hours and got nothing. Almost 416 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: then obviously I met Scott, and I think when I 417 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: met him, obviously both personal trainers, both kind of same, 418 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 2: similar life situations, and it was just I almost saw 419 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: him more as a as a friend, like I wanted 420 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 2: a friend, and obviously we ended up getting together. I thought, Okay, 421 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: maybe I'm not gay. Maybe it's just a thing. But 422 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 2: within like the first two months straight away again couldn't 423 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 2: handle the relationship. I couldn't handle intimacy. It was all 424 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 2: it just just yeah, there's no other way I can 425 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 2: say it, just. 426 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: Like yeah, I think that's a very good description. If 427 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: you're not into it, you're not in. 428 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: And so that relationship, there were moments where obviously Scott 429 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 2: didn't work or he would work in certain jobs where 430 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 2: pay probably wasn't that great, did a lot of he 431 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 2: did a lot of festivals, a lot of things, a 432 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 2: lot of sponding that he didn't need to do. And 433 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 2: that is when obviously I in this whole time, I 434 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 2: confided mocha, sorry, Spanish is coming out? 435 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 3: You speak Spanish? 436 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 2: I confided a lot in a female friend acquaintance, and 437 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 2: she we've known each other since studying personal training, but 438 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: I never kind of saw her as more than just 439 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 2: this acquaintance really until we started seeing each other more. 440 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 2: We started working around the same gym. We did all 441 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: our practical around the same gym, which was great. I thought, oh, 442 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,719 Speaker 2: I've got a friend. I've got a female friend. And 443 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 2: I instantly mistook I guess the affection and the time 444 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 2: that she was giving me as she liked me, and 445 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 2: it was nice. It was finally nice to see that 446 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: I'd managed to kind of get a woman's attention, because 447 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,959 Speaker 2: I constantly it's so easy to get a man's attention 448 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 2: when you don't want it, but then when you want 449 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: a woman's attention, you don't get it. 450 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: Well, in the reading of you're discussing that in the 451 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: book to me, i'd describe it. You were flattered by it, 452 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: like to buy the attention, and a little bit excited. 453 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 2: About absolutely, because it was really the first woman who 454 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 2: kind of made me feel special. It was okay to be, 455 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: you know, a disaster disguised in a human being and 456 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 2: still trying to move forward, so confined everything in her 457 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 2: she was my best friend slash crush. And it started 458 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 2: happening that she just started making these little hints, subtle hints, 459 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: just little comments that made me go, oh, hang on 460 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 2: a minute, is that me or did she actually you know, 461 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: hint that you know, maybe she's kind of in the closet, 462 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: or she might be gay, or she might be by 463 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 2: maybe you know, she likes me. But she never actually said, hey, 464 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 2: you know what looks I like you. She really kept 465 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 2: it quite. 466 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 3: Enough to keep you interested. 467 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of you know, you've got like something just 468 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 2: right here and you want it, but you never get it. Yeah. 469 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 2: And then obviously she knew that I was struggling financially, 470 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 2: and she kept saying, you know, I work in this club, 471 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 2: I've run it, we do really well. You should come 472 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 2: in and help me. I've got some issues. I can't 473 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 2: trust stuff. And she never actually really kind of said, 474 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 2: you know, it's a it's a brothel, because she kept saying, 475 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: you know, this club, this gentleman's club. And because I 476 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 2: was I came from a bubble, I was like, cool, 477 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 2: you know she's a pete, so it must be something 478 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 2: to do with that. So when she obviously obviously that, 479 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 2: you know, she told me she needed me, she needed 480 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 2: someone she could trust, and I was like, I can 481 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 2: do this. I can be this person that she needs, 482 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 2: and so I went. I went to Sydney, and I 483 00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: think that is when everything just went from bad to worse. 484 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, he in my sitting as a wise ex cop. 485 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, if you start to get involved in gentlemen's clubs, 486 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: brothels or whatever, there is there's some good people involved, 487 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: but there's some shady type characters there that and I 488 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: look at you now with all the worldly experience of 489 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: surviving in the foreign prison, and I would imagine back, yeah, 490 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: pre time in Columbia, you would have been pretty naive, 491 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: naive thing coming to the big smake in Sydney and 492 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: hanging around with people like that. 493 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 3: So I'd see you as what I would term very 494 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 3: vulnerable in the vulnerable situation. 495 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that was really what she liked, 496 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: because even later on, you know, we had a conversation. 497 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 2: I was like, well, why did you study in Adelaide, 498 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 2: Like what's to do there? And she just said, oh, no, 499 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 2: you know, I prefer smaller towns. And obviously when she 500 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 2: said that, I didn't really think much of it. But 501 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 2: now with everything that I know, I kind of go, 502 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 2: it's a bit of a phishing expedition, don't you think. 503 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: You're looking back with benefit of hindsight. Yeah, yeah, she's 504 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: found someone and look at this young girl that's pretty 505 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: naive and I can lead her on. 506 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 3: That type of thing. 507 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: I think it's important what we've talked about there, because 508 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: I certainly got that from the book, and I didn't 509 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: realize your full story because I've been dripped fed like 510 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: everyone else. You see the headlines, you read the article 511 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: in the paper, or see a couple of TV clips, 512 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: but that's giving a sense of what you brought you 513 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: into that world, into that world where. And I don't 514 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: want to go into the full detail and full details 515 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: of your charges. The facts are that it was twenty 516 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: seventeen you were caught leaving Bogatar Airport with five point 517 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: eight kilograms of cocaine in your luggage. I know you've 518 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: been You've been criticized for giving varying aversions of events 519 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: and different things in media interviews and court records and 520 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: different things. I'm saying this, and it's not you pulling 521 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: back because if I wanted to explore that, we could 522 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: explore that back. I've made the decision. I don't want 523 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: to go into those details. I think we can agree 524 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: that you made a mistake and you paid for it 525 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: very very dearly in terms of what happened to you 526 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: in prison. I want to talk about your time in prison, 527 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: and in the discussion I had with you the other 528 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: day and comments i've heard you say that you know 529 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: you did the wrong thing, You've paid the price for it, 530 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: and you're sorry for the people that you hurt and 531 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: you've got your regrets. Is that fair to say a 532 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: summation of I'm just talking about the offense that you 533 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: were convicted of. 534 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I think there's no doubt ever when I've 535 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 2: accepted responsibility that I did the wrong thing, and I 536 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: think the thing that I really wanted to I guess 537 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 2: put out there. I guess the real situation behind everything 538 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 2: that kind of got me there, because, as you said, 539 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 2: so many different things came out. Obviously you know there 540 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,719 Speaker 2: was a version. There was a version where my family 541 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 2: spoke out, where Scott spoke out, where my lovely sixty 542 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 2: minutes interview, and so it was all stopped, chucked mixed together, 543 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 2: and so really, by the time I had an actual 544 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 2: chance to sit down and say, well, actually let's start 545 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 2: right at the beginning and go through it, it didn't matter anymore. 546 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 2: The important thing in all of that is that I've 547 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: never not tried to take responsibility that I did the 548 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 2: wrong thing, Because essentially, if I'm telling you the backstory, 549 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: I could turn to go, no, it was it wasn't me. 550 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 2: But I think it's more so it's it's a cautious, 551 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 2: cautious tail of really, how you can get there and 552 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 2: what can happen. 553 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: Well, I think if any good comes from this outside 554 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: of that you've turned your life around and the things 555 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: that you're doing is it is a cautionary tale. Like 556 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: and that's why I wanted to spell out who you 557 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: were up until that point, because I do get tired 558 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: of people sitting and judging people on the they've done this, 559 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 1: they've done that, therefore they must be a bad person. 560 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: Let's take a step back, let's go a little bit further, 561 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: and what was what led you to that situation? 562 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 3: Now people could sit here. 563 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: And go, oh, yeah, well I had a tough jobhood 564 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: and I didn't do that, and we accept that. We 565 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: accept that, but everyone's different in the way they react. 566 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 1: And I'm not making excuses for you. It was a serious, 567 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: serious charge, but you've got you, You've paid your paid 568 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: your price, you served your debt to society. So I 569 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,959 Speaker 1: think we move on past that. Because I also saw 570 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: with some of the interviews, I thought it was a 571 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: bit of an ambush. And you've been interviewed before you'd 572 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: even been sentencing, and you're in a foreign jail and 573 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: you've been criticized for not giving people up or what 574 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: I know about jail is you're not very well liked. 575 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: If you're giving people up, and if you're talking on 576 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: a national TV show giving people up, I can only 577 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: imagine the reception you'd get back when you walk back 578 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: into back into the prison. So I'm not making excuses 579 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,720 Speaker 1: for you, but I'm just I'm saying I understand why 580 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: some of those interviews might have been misconstrued. You're in 581 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: a very vulnerable situation. I sound like I'm defending you. 582 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: Maybe you should have got me in to defend you 583 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: at at the court matter. But what I'm saying is 584 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: I understand it was a very complex situation. 585 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 3: I think people don't think and. 586 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: I really appreciate how vulnerable are circumstances you were in 587 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: in that pre and then we're talking life and death, 588 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: and that's what we're going to talk talk about from there. 589 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 1: So let's move on past past the offence you. Let's 590 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: take your wind it back to the point at the airport. 591 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: You're walking through the airport and you're being stopped by 592 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: customs and they've taken you to a back room. Tell 593 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:20,439 Speaker 1: us what happens from there. 594 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 2: So I got tied up working with obviously the Gentlemen's 595 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 2: Club and everyone that was involved there. And it was 596 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 2: from there that with my lovely friend, the offer came 597 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,439 Speaker 2: up to go overseas, and well, they're just escalated from there. 598 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 2: So I got into the back room, suitcase of city 599 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 2: on the table still, and I've got these guards, these 600 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 2: police and other people there and they're speaking at me 601 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 2: because it was understanding anything. And one guy just goes suitcase, 602 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 2: he pointed to it. I said yes, And then a 603 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 2: translator that can't translate very well came in and on 604 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 2: his phone he goes, can we can we can we 605 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 2: open it? I said, that's fine, open up suitcase. They 606 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: go is this clothing yours? Yes? It is. Then they 607 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,439 Speaker 2: pull aside and then there's this nice of bag in there. 608 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 2: They pull it out start opening it, and I know 609 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 2: people always criticize me on this, but obviously they unwrap. 610 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 2: They're all individually wrap, and they unwrapped the first one 611 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 2: box of headphones, and stupidly, it was almost relief when 612 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 2: I saw it was just headphones. And then they started 613 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 2: unboxing it. And obviously in example these headphones in the box, 614 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 2: there's like a middle part that's got some cardboard packaging 615 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 2: and they pulled out obviously a black role, and they're like, 616 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 2: is this yours? And I'm like, well, I didn't put 617 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 2: it there, if that's what you're asking. And then they 618 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,240 Speaker 2: basically said they were going to do a drug test 619 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 2: on it. I can't remember the exact word that they use, 620 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 2: and if it comes back, I do belie think it 621 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 2: comes back blue. It's positive sounds. Yeah. Then basically came 622 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 2: back blue and the astray you're under rest. And I 623 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,280 Speaker 2: stood there and I watched them keep unboxing these headphones 624 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 2: and keep pulling out these roles, and I just I 625 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 2: remember standing there looking at it. Not only was I 626 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 2: so pissed off that I was going through this, I 627 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 2: was hurt because of everything that I'd just gone through beforehand, 628 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 2: obviously feeling completely betrayed by someone that I really liked 629 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 2: to looking at all this cocaine and going, I'm never 630 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 2: getting out of prison. I'd never really been around drugs 631 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 2: ever in my life. Obviously in obviously a brothel, you 632 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 2: see bits and pieces here and there, but not like that, 633 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 2: and I just remember thinking, I'm going to die in 634 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 2: prison because it just looked like so much. 635 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: So when you were going to the airport and we 636 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: don't need to go into details, but you knew you 637 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: had something that you shouldn't have in your bag, but 638 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: you were surprised when you saw the extent of it 639 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: when the Border Force or the officers were going through 640 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: the bag. 641 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct. I did know that there's something I've 642 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 2: input in there, but I didn't know how it was 643 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 2: or what was in it. I obviously imagined the worst, 644 00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 2: but yeah, I just hadn't actually seen what it was 645 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 2: or how it was coming or anything. So handcuffs on. 646 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 2: I was very lucky that to a certain degree, I 647 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 2: had a police officer who actually just covered up my 648 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,320 Speaker 2: handcuffs with a jacket so it didn't create too much attention. 649 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 2: It's putting a van taken to an anti narcotic station 650 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 2: which is literally just over the outside of the airport 651 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:35,280 Speaker 2: where I was questioned by the head commander via Google 652 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 2: and he's like, you would you like a lawyer? And 653 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 2: I said, yes, I would like a lawyer. 654 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,359 Speaker 1: So when you say via Google with the phone, the 655 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: translation through the phone, okay. 656 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 2: I said yes I would, And then obviously he tips 657 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 2: back and he goes, oh, you know, it's pretty late, 658 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 2: so it might take a little while to get here. 659 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 2: Do you mind if I just asked you a couple 660 00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 2: of questions in the meantime and I in the situation 661 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 2: and that it was. It wasn't like I could just go, well, no, 662 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 2: you can't ask me questions. So through through obviously Google Translate, 663 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 2: it was you know where you're from, where are we're staying? 664 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 2: What do you do for a living? Are you married? Kids? 665 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:23,919 Speaker 2: Basic questions that I didn't really see as harmful. And 666 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 2: then obviously do I have a contact number? And I 667 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 2: and I'm like, there's this, there's my phone. And he goes, okay, 668 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 2: is this your this is your phone? I'm saying, he's 669 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 2: got my phone. He's like, is this your phone? I said, 670 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 2: yes it is. He goes, can you can you unlock it? 671 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 2: So I unlocked it and by the time he went 672 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 2: back and he went to look it again, he locked 673 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 2: and he goes, take the lock off. That's all, okay. 674 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,800 Speaker 2: So I took the look off and then he grabbed 675 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 2: the phone and put it in his drawer. Okay, it's 676 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,839 Speaker 2: a bit a bit weird, but okay. Then he kept 677 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 2: going going through some questions about what happened really that 678 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 2: where I was I staying? Did I know anyone if 679 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 2: I'd bought anything while I was in Columbia places i'd gone. 680 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 2: And then I get taken away and sat down for 681 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 2: by myself for like another three hours, and then I 682 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 2: get brought this massive stack of paper like it would 683 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 2: have been like this thick, and he goes, you need 684 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,800 Speaker 2: to sign all of this, and I said, but I 685 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 2: don't know what I'm signing, Like how can I sign something? 686 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 2: I'm like, where's where's the lawyer that I asked for? 687 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 2: No lawyer not coming. And then obviously there's not really 688 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 2: much I can do at that point, so I sign 689 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 2: everything that I'm asked to sign. They still do a 690 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:59,399 Speaker 2: lot of manual fingerprinting over there, so ink and fingerprint 691 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. And then I get put 692 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 2: in a van and taken to a medical center where 693 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 2: obviously I'm attended by a nurse who sees that I've 694 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 2: got bruises over me, obviously in between my legs and 695 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 2: all the all sorts of places, and this nurse same 696 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 2: thing translator like, are you okay? Do the police do 697 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:27,359 Speaker 2: this to you? 698 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: Those bruises between between your legs. That's from that it's 699 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 1: referred to in your book the incident that's happened before 700 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: the arrest at the airport. 701 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,800 Speaker 2: Yes, that's that's correct, it was violated before. 702 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: And again just to put in context with the version, 703 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: this is the people that you were getting involved in 704 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: in bringing the bag out of the country or taking 705 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: the bag out of the country. And when you say 706 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,399 Speaker 1: you're violated, as described in the book, you're sexually sold. 707 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 2: Yes, that's correct. Yeah, okay, So with all these bruises, 708 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 2: the reason why they take you to see this medical 709 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,840 Speaker 2: center is obviously there's a lot of issues with police 710 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 2: brutality over there, so if you get hit or anything 711 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 2: by a police officer, they could potentially ruin the whole case. 712 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 2: They take you to these medical centers and they make 713 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 2: sure that you've been treated well through your arrest. So 714 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 2: basically said that the police hadn't done anything to me, 715 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 2: and this nurse is trying to talk to the police 716 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 2: officer that's with me, and the police officers just saying 717 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 2: I don't care, I don't care, I don't care what 718 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,319 Speaker 2: she's been through, I don't care what she needs. Just 719 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 2: do what I ask and that's it. So then I 720 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 2: get taken back to the same anti nicotic station and 721 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 2: within two or three hours, I'm taken to the courthouse 722 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 2: where I actually get a chance to meet my prosecutor 723 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 2: before I and it was really it was so nerve 724 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 2: wracking because although it was happening really quickly, at the 725 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 2: same time there's this whole window of opportunity that if 726 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:19,840 Speaker 2: they don't manage to get you with your charges within 727 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 2: the first I think it was thirty six hours of 728 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:31,200 Speaker 2: your arrest, they can't actually hold you in any kind 729 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 2: of holding, sell or anything. They have to leave you 730 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,839 Speaker 2: on parole. So these people were moving really quickly because 731 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 2: obviously I was arrested over Easter and over there they've 732 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 2: got more public holidays and then I want to do 733 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 2: with So it was they had to get it done 734 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 2: really quickly. So I went into the courthouse met my prosecutor. 735 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 2: She seemed like a genuine, genuinely nice, caring prosecutor as 736 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,279 Speaker 2: far as they go, and she basically said to me, like, 737 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 2: what happened because it doesn't make sense? Ah, and I 738 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 2: and I at that point you kind of like, do 739 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 2: I trust you? Do? Can I speak to you? Because 740 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 2: obviously I've been traumatized that the police are involved, that 741 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 2: they've got this under the belt. That they've got all 742 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,840 Speaker 2: these people, and I go, who can I actually speak to? 743 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 2: So it was it was really I was quite who 744 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 2: do I trust? So I just said to her that 745 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:35,000 Speaker 2: I was that there were other people involved, didn't say who, 746 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:40,359 Speaker 2: and she just said, it's so obvious that you. 747 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:42,040 Speaker 3: Are. 748 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:47,720 Speaker 2: I'm all, you're the full guy. She said, Unfortunately, whether 749 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 2: I can prove or you can prove, at the end 750 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,400 Speaker 2: of the day, the drug was in your suitcase and 751 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 2: it was in your name, and you did the check in. 752 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,839 Speaker 2: She said, although you might have gone through a lot 753 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 2: of things beforehand, that's the facts and you can't argue 754 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 2: those facts, which was true. So went into having my 755 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 2: charges officially put against me, and I was told that 756 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:20,960 Speaker 2: I was going to be facing up to four hundred 757 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:26,680 Speaker 2: and fifty six months of prison. It was like thirty years. 758 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,800 Speaker 2: And I'm sitting there because I do everything in months, 759 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:30,359 Speaker 2: and I'm like. 760 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: What, so what when all this was going on? What 761 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,479 Speaker 1: was going through your mind? Like this, You've gone from yeah, 762 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:43,759 Speaker 1: I'd say, a relatively sheltered life in terms of traveling internationally, 763 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: and you know, this is the first time you're overseas. 764 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: You're in the South American detention or being held by 765 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,680 Speaker 1: South American police, and you've been told you might be 766 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 1: doing thirty years. 767 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 2: I I'm going to be fifty something when I get out. 768 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,880 Speaker 2: And although I laugh now, at the time, I was 769 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,319 Speaker 2: just I was cold, Like it was almost like this shock. 770 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,400 Speaker 2: I was frozen, and I'm doing the math, and I go, 771 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to be fifty fifty two when I get out, 772 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 2: Like I'm not gonna have a life, Like I'm not 773 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna have anything. And it was absolutely mind numbing. 774 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,480 Speaker 2: And even even now when I still hear the amount 775 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,920 Speaker 2: of months that they initially said, it just sounds like 776 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:35,240 Speaker 2: an eternity. I hadn't even seen what their holding cells 777 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 2: look like, little alone in the prison, and I was 778 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 2: just worried about, you know, getting through those potential thirty years, 779 00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 2: not everything else that could potentially happen in between that 780 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 2: as well being in those in those environments. So I 781 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:56,440 Speaker 2: was kind of like, okay, thirty years, right, what do 782 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,160 Speaker 2: I do? Like, how do I how do I how 783 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 2: do I reduce it? 784 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:01,719 Speaker 3: That's what that was going through your head. 785 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,960 Speaker 1: So they obviously got the got the charges within the 786 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:13,280 Speaker 1: allocated allocated time, and then my understanding you were taken 787 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,719 Speaker 1: to a detention center. And that's a whole nother level 788 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,600 Speaker 1: of panic and fear. Do you want to talk us 789 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,680 Speaker 1: through that when you went to the detention center. 790 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 2: So it was about two o'clock by the time all 791 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 2: my charges had officially been pressed against me. I'd been 792 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,840 Speaker 2: told that I was going to be held in Elburn 793 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:38,200 Speaker 2: Pastor Women's Prison in Bogota, but the guards already told 794 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 2: me that they didn't have any capacity for me at 795 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,040 Speaker 2: that time. So I was going to a holding cell, 796 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,560 Speaker 2: and I honestly thought I was going back to the 797 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:50,840 Speaker 2: anti narcotic station when I get taken to a different 798 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:57,160 Speaker 2: place and I'm taken underneath the building and then there's 799 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 2: this door, and you know, they stood there knocking on 800 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,000 Speaker 2: the door, and then there's two police officers appear and 801 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,240 Speaker 2: they look at me and then they're speaking, no idea 802 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,359 Speaker 2: what was said, And then I was told you're going 803 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,120 Speaker 2: in here. And so I still had like a like 804 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,880 Speaker 2: a bag full of some clothing that I'd been allowed 805 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,840 Speaker 2: to keep, and they've tipped it out on the floor, 806 00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,920 Speaker 2: kicking about, pulling stuff out and saying, oh no, this 807 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 2: doesn't go through, this doesn't go through. Left with pretty 808 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:32,920 Speaker 2: much nothing. Then I get searched, which is some of 809 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:37,960 Speaker 2: the search is over there. It's the some of the 810 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,320 Speaker 2: worst searches you could go through. Basically, there's no privacy, 811 00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:45,239 Speaker 2: there's no personal space, there's no nothing. And some people 812 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,960 Speaker 2: would go, well, you're a criminal, what do you expect. 813 00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,560 Speaker 2: But at the same time, there are still some basic 814 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:56,120 Speaker 2: human rights, like men should not be doing my strip searches. 815 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 2: It's women should be doing it the same sex. So 816 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,000 Speaker 2: the men are male police officers, they were quite handsy 817 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,280 Speaker 2: when they were doing their searchers. And then I'm told 818 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,880 Speaker 2: to obviously get dressed again, get ready, walk through, and 819 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,239 Speaker 2: then I find myself in front of about sixty men. 820 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,719 Speaker 1: Sorry, just on those strip searchers, like and what you said, 821 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:25,319 Speaker 1: and it's yeah, the you brush over it. But they 822 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,239 Speaker 1: were sexual assaults. There's no other way of describing it. 823 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:33,720 Speaker 1: It was you were strip naked, internal body cavity searchers 824 00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:40,320 Speaker 1: by a male, a male officer that was behaving rather strangely, 825 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,400 Speaker 1: and as you described in the book, fondling you and 826 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,640 Speaker 1: then yeah, even after he searched you, smelling his fingers 827 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,440 Speaker 1: and doing stuff like that. Like people need to understand, 828 00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,320 Speaker 1: Like people think, okay, you're a criminal. You Okay, obviously 829 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,640 Speaker 1: we've got to search criminals before they go in the prison, 830 00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:01,279 Speaker 1: but what happened to you was outrageous, And yeah, I 831 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,400 Speaker 1: think people need to understand it to appreciate your full story. 832 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,960 Speaker 1: And I'm sorry I'll bring it up in the detail, 833 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,400 Speaker 1: but because it must be hard for you to talk about, 834 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: but yeah, what your experience. It made me angry even 835 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,600 Speaker 1: thinking about it. I don't care what type of crime 836 00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,759 Speaker 1: you've committed. To be treated like that was so so wrong. 837 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,440 Speaker 2: I think sometimes to kind of a way of processing 838 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,560 Speaker 2: through those situations. Obviously, because there was quite a lot, 839 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,000 Speaker 2: you kind of go do you just go, it's a 840 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:37,840 Speaker 2: part of it, it's what happens. It's and for me 841 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,680 Speaker 2: a lot of those situations, I kind of had convinced 842 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:47,000 Speaker 2: myself that I deserved it. So, yeah, it's and that 843 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,759 Speaker 2: was a mentality through I guess through the first two 844 00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:52,480 Speaker 2: years of it all really that I. 845 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:57,319 Speaker 1: Suppose it's a survivor's mentality. Yeah, you've got to come 846 00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,520 Speaker 1: to terms of some way otherwise that yeah. 847 00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:05,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and although it was hard every time it happened, 848 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,879 Speaker 2: it really was kind of well, this is what I get, 849 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,680 Speaker 2: this is what I deserve, This is this is my fault. 850 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,600 Speaker 2: I'm here because I did this to myself. So it 851 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:22,879 Speaker 2: was always constantly trying to justify something that isn't correct, 852 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,360 Speaker 2: but making it okay in a way. 853 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:26,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 854 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:33,600 Speaker 2: So I'm in front of I got sixty sixty odd men, 855 00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,799 Speaker 2: and these are really old holding cells. So there's one 856 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,640 Speaker 2: big one on my left hand side, there's a small 857 00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,319 Speaker 2: one right next to the entrance, and then on the 858 00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:48,520 Speaker 2: other side there's another big cell, and then in front 859 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:53,760 Speaker 2: of me there's three toilets, no doors, no toilet seats, 860 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:59,920 Speaker 2: because toilet seats over there are luxuries. So I'm putting 861 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,680 Speaker 2: this little cell near the entrance. And I felt like 862 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:09,800 Speaker 2: I was a zoo expedition essentially, because all of a sudden, 863 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,120 Speaker 2: I'm there. All these men just flock and I'm not 864 00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:19,320 Speaker 2: understanding absolutely anything. They're saying things at me. The way 865 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,720 Speaker 2: that they look at me, I basically know the comments 866 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,919 Speaker 2: that they're saying, and I'm just left there with these men. 867 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:33,839 Speaker 2: And there was one one guy who spoke very very 868 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,560 Speaker 2: broken English, and he was kind of a bit of 869 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:42,320 Speaker 2: a bit of an angel in that instinct, because he 870 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:47,959 Speaker 2: really did help me along the lines in that time 871 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,600 Speaker 2: in those holding cells, because after being there for a 872 00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:55,359 Speaker 2: day day and a half, I had an encounter with 873 00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:03,200 Speaker 2: quite a full on male inmate and he basically tried 874 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,880 Speaker 2: to sexually assault me while I was trying to go 875 00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,759 Speaker 2: to the toilet, and this guy who spoke a little 876 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:15,000 Speaker 2: bit of English, he did manage to intervene and entirely grateful. 877 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:19,120 Speaker 2: I actually still speak to this person. But it was 878 00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:24,600 Speaker 2: absolutely disgusting to be put amongst all these men in 879 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:29,320 Speaker 2: a different country where they know that a foreign woman. 880 00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:36,560 Speaker 2: They're very vulnerable in those situations, and the police they 881 00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,399 Speaker 2: don't care unless you've got money to give them. They 882 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,799 Speaker 2: would just throw out there to the wolves and they'll 883 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:45,920 Speaker 2: leave you. They won't intervene. Actually, the police are often 884 00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:51,239 Speaker 2: worse than the actual inmates. So it was absolutely disgusting 885 00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:55,319 Speaker 2: to be in that situation. I do remember I had 886 00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,960 Speaker 2: an asthma attack on the morning the morning after I 887 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,200 Speaker 2: got there, and they refused to help me because I 888 00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:03,680 Speaker 2: couldn't pay them to help me. 889 00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, a brutal environment. And when I was speaking to 890 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,040 Speaker 1: you yesterday, I had to just check I hadn't misread 891 00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:12,600 Speaker 1: it in the book that you were sent to a 892 00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:17,400 Speaker 1: male holding the holding detention center like I couldn't believe it. 893 00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,400 Speaker 1: It's throwing the lamb in with the wolves in an 894 00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,440 Speaker 1: environment like that. And the scary part about when you 895 00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:26,680 Speaker 1: were going to the toilet and the person that was 896 00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,080 Speaker 1: trying to sexually assault you, he was speaking to the 897 00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:34,560 Speaker 1: officers beforehand. It's almost like they are involved. Like it's yeah, 898 00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:41,000 Speaker 1: I think for people we see it, see these things 899 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,600 Speaker 1: on the movies, on the TV and that type of stuff. 900 00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,440 Speaker 1: But this is the reality of what you were going 901 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,200 Speaker 1: through as a twenty two year old. So if people 902 00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,960 Speaker 1: judge you on the crime that you committed, well, okay, 903 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,520 Speaker 1: let's look at what happened to you, what happened to 904 00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,800 Speaker 1: you after that. We might take a break now, and 905 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,759 Speaker 1: I think we need to break. It's pretty pretty heavy conversation. 906 00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,359 Speaker 1: What you what you're going through. When we come back, 907 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,440 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the prison experience, because this 908 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:10,839 Speaker 1: is bearing in mind, this is just the detention center. 909 00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,080 Speaker 1: We haven't even got you in the prison prison yet, 910 00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,960 Speaker 1: and what happened in there. We're going to talk about 911 00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:20,160 Speaker 1: the bashings, of stabbings and sexual assaults, what I call 912 00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,440 Speaker 1: the torture session in the dentist chair, and I was 913 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,360 Speaker 1: already scared of dentists, so I think I'm not going 914 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:27,720 Speaker 1: to go there unless I have to after what happened 915 00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,800 Speaker 1: to you. But interesting, Cassie. I want to find out 916 00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,960 Speaker 1: how you survived and how you kept your humanity throughout, 917 00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:41,320 Speaker 1: and how you've turned your life around, because I think 918 00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:45,080 Speaker 1: that's the amazing part, because there's so many times looking 919 00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,600 Speaker 1: at what the situation you're in, I don't know how 920 00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:50,840 Speaker 1: you survive. So I'd be fascinated to find out how 921 00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:54,120 Speaker 1: you've navigated your way through that environment because it was 922 00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:55,320 Speaker 1: one scary. 923 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:56,440 Speaker 2: Place, terrifying. 924 00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:06,280 Speaker 1: Okay, we'll be back shortly, Nanna, and to die