WEBVTT - Conversations with Cornesy - Nick Kaldas 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.120 Welcome to conversations everybody. My guest today, Nick Caldice, has 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:08.520 done it's just a really intriguing interesting story. He was 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.720 from a well to do family in Egypt. Parents had 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:15.400 large land holdings, but they were forced to flee the 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:19.200 na's A regime and settled in Sydney. Could have been Adelaide, 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:22.319 but they settled in Sydney. From there he worked his 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.400 way up in the New Southwest Police Force to the 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.560 ryle of Assistant Commissioner and he's done some amazing things. 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.640 As I said, he's worked for the United Nations. He 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:38.559 was requested to go and investigate the murder of the 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:40.760 Lebanese Prime Minister of Fike Herriri, and then he was 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:44.440 the commissioner of the Royal Commission in the Veteran's suicide. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.199 But he joins us now. He's written a book called 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.559 Behind the Badge. Nick. Thank you for your time. How 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:49.480 are you good? 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.000 Thanks? Thanks very much for having men really appreciate it. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:53.800 It's just one of those books you can't put down. 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:58.480 I mean you can pick it up and you're very kind. Well, 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:01.520 I think we all like true crime, but there's also 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:05.120 the human element of it. You know, your family's history 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:09.240 in Egypt, which is really interesting. So can you I 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:11.440 mean it sounds like you're from a very well to 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:12.440 do family, can you. 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:14.440 Yeah, we were back to your grandparents. 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:17.880 Yeah, yeah, my grandfather who I was named after, So 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.039 nick is a nickname. My real name is Negeb or 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:24.280 as the Arabs say, Najib I was named after him. 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:26.600 He was titled he was the equivalent of a sur 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:29.800 at bay in Arabic and he was titled given that 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:33.679 by King Farouk before they deposed the king and turned 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:34.600 it into a republic. 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:37.280 But we were willing to do, but. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:38.720 My father got to a point where we had to 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.000 get out of there, and I think the logic was 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:44.280 that the line for America was too long and Canada 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:45.360 was too cold. 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:47.120 So we headed to Australia. 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.520 So what was the connection in Adelaide, Because there was 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:52.720 a brief over there. You could have ended up in Adelais. 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:53.000 Yeah. 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.880 There's one family of Egyptian people who we've never met 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:00.160 and we've lost track of, who were good friends with 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.280 one of my uncles, and they actually signed paperwork to 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.720 sponsor us, to say we're off a good character and 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.000 so on. But we never got there. We rang and 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:11.400 said we'll sorry, we're not coming. As we stopped in 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:13.680 Sydney and caught up with another friend of a family 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:17.120 and he said, don't go to Adelaide. There's not as 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.000 much work there and you'll have more chance of getting 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.280 work in Sydney. So we ended up staying in Sydney 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:24.399 rather than Adelaide. 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:28.240 What intrigued me is you left so much behind in 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:30.440 each all, even though a lot of it had in 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:33.480 time been acquired by the government. But what sort of 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:35.880 land holding you talked about The amount of land that 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.120 your family did own. Yes, south of Cairo, so. 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:42.760 Yeah, yeah, we're all. We're all from the south. They 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.680 call it Upper Egypt, even though it's way down south 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:50.720 because the Nile flows down from the from Africa really 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.480 and then ends up in the Mediterranean, so the Nile 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.440 flows downwards, they call it Upper Egypt, but it's south 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:00.440 and that's where our family comes from. We did have 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:04.840 substantial landholdings. My father had obviously his own, but he 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:10.959 also managed fairly large amounts of land in farming for 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.799 widows and aunties and uncles who didn't have a capacity 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.440 to do so, so he'd managed that for them as well. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.520 But they did confiscate all of that and allegedly for 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.000 distribution to peasants, which we're not sure what happened. And 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.960 they gave them everyone government bonds, which frankly ended up 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:34.960 being worthless. Really it was extreme sort of socialism, and 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.400 certainly at that stage Egypt took a fairly sharp turn 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:43.480 to the left. President Nasa was anti West and he 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:47.320 was embraced very much by the Soviet Bloc, and you know, 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:48.520 they steered him in that direction. 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:53.280 Obviously never been back to look at the family's landholding, 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.920 just to sort of about. 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:57.040 That, Yeah, I haven't. 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:59.280 We had a house near where all the farms were 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:01.640 apart from my house, and I stewed with the city 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:03.280 where we come from, and I did get back a 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.280 couple of times to visit, and some of the workers 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:08.400 there remembered me, and then they just stood there looking 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:10.840 at me, and then finally one of them said, you know, 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.400 you look just like him, and I said, apparently I 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.880 looked just like my father, God rest hisself. 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:21.320 So you're ten years old when you twelve? Yeah, twelve twelve, 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:22.720 So you've got great memories of it. 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:23.479 Could you speak? 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:24.239 You could speak? 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:27.000 Yeah, I wasn't special. 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.039 I think everyone in Egypt at the time, if you 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.480 went to a private school, which most people did you. 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.560 I spoke English, French and Arabic before we came out. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.400 I've lost my French unfortunately after fifty years, but the 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:39.520 Arabic is still pretty good. 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:44.720 How were you received, this young Egyptian twelve year old 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.880 going to school. I mean kind of must have been tough. 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.200 I mean, I can't imagine you weren't bullied. 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:51.200 A little bit. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.520 But we lived in Marigville when we got he first, 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:55.800 and I went to Margville dealer sou and I think, 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.560 I mean, I wouldn't have statistics or anything, but my 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.040 guess is that the majority of students in Margnal de 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.320 la Sale at the time were actually migrants. I felt 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.039 quite quite comfortable there. 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:10.400 Your dad had to come out and get a manual 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:15.400 working job, basically, but did he ever talk about, you know, 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:17.000 the change of life and. 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:18.640 We could see it. Graham. 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.719 He has never had never worked for anyone else. He 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.040 was always running his own show and he had very 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.200 large numbers of people working for him. The first job 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.760 he got was on the factory floor in Australia in 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:34.760 standard telephons and cables and redfern just on the factory 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.599 floor and he adjusted, He did what he had to do. 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:39.400 Then he had a courier van for a while, and 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.000 then eventually he set up a laundry and dry cleaning 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:46.440 business at Flemington and we went from there. He had 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.360 that till he died, and then we sold it after 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:49.080 he passed away. 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:50.640 But he was. 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.280 Happy to do whatever he needed to do to make 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:55.280 sure that the family's fed and looked after. 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:56.799 He died young. 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.080 He did just turned sixty. 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.120 Actually, how did that impact on you? 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.440 It was complete shock. He had had a heart condition. 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.440 Heart conditions run and you know they joke that men 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.120 die young in our family. In Upper Egypt in particular, 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.360 they don't use butter to cook. They use gee, and 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:16.960 it's really sort of artery. It tastes great, but it's 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:21.360 artery clogging stuff. And Egyptians are not renowned for their 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.840 exercise capability. So it was a combination of factors. But 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.240 a lot of my uncles died very young as well, 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:29.040 mainly with heart conditions. 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:32.000 The dynamics of the family are always intrigued. You had 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:36.320 a sister, Yeah, My father was insistent that she marrying 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:41.560 a nice Egyptian boy. Yeah, but she resisted can you 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:43.720 just recite that for us? 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:45.000 Yeah, she'll probably kill me. 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:49.560 But so, she'd met a fellow at her she worked 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.000 in the office of Standard Telephants and Cables. My father 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:54.400 managed to get her a job there, and she'd met 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:58.720 this nice Australian fellow called Bruce, of course, and he 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.640 my dad took a fair bit of adjustment to realize 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:06.159 that she wasn't going to be marrying an Egyptian. Many 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:10.320 suitors came forward through our church and she just wouldn't 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.400 accept any. And then I think the tide turned when 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:17.240 my mother switched sides and sided with my sister to say, look, 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:19.680 you've got to give this a go. And then my 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:24.040 dad was outnumbered and outflanked, and we met Bruce, and 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.280 we eventually met his parents, and I'm happy to say 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.400 so they've been married now probably gosh, close to fifty years, 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.160 and they're very, very happy. He's a huge part of 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.080 the family. He's been an incredible brother in law. He's 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.920 always been there for us. He's a fantastic fellow. 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.000 Yeah, but he wasn't. He didn't look anything like an Egyptian, 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:43.760 did he He look. 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.440 He had blonde hair, and he was about six foot 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.760 three or something. But yeah, he came in on a 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:52.960 Saturday morning and my brother and I were peeking through 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.240 the blinds to see what this fellow looked like. He 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:57.120 had to have a sit down with my father and 0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:59.160 he had a nice suit on, it had a haircut 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.640 and everything. And then that went well, and then my 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:03.360 father said, well, we're going to have to meet your parents. 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:05.880 So the next Saturday he came up with his parents 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:07.760 and he and his dad had nice suits on and 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:08.680 nice haircuts and. 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.440 Everything went well. And then eventually they yeah, they got married. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:17.240 Oh happily ever after. Your brother's story is interesting too, 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.640 because it sounded like he could have been anything chose 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:20.559 to the church. 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.880 Yeah, yeah, he was Ducks. He went to Sydney Tech 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:28.160 Boys at Hurstville. He actually duckst year twelve and he 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:29.840 was in the top one percent and a number of 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:34.000 subjects in the HC. And he went to medicine at 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.080 Sydney Uni, finished it and practiced for a few years. 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:41.679 He was heading towards specializing as a pediatrician. I think 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.320 that's what he wanted to do, but then he got 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.800 the call and gave up medicine and became a priest 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:52.599 in our church. We copped the Orthodox Christians and he 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:54.800 hasn't looked back. I mean, he's happy doing what he's doing. 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.400 And obviously my mother just wanted him to set himself 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:02.680 up a little bit financially, but he made his mind 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:03.800 up and that was it. 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:04.800 That's what he wanted to do. 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.400 I don't think we understand clearly the presence of the 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:13.120 Coptic Christians in that melting plot that is Asian. 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:17.720 Yeah, we've got gosh, quite a sizeable president. I think 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.800 it's perhaps or ninety thousand people, and we've got probably 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.840 two dozen churches in just New South Wales and Queensland 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.680 and the Northern Territory. We do have a sizeable present. 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:31.160 I think we started migrating probably certainly a trickle in 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.320 the late fifties, but then in the sixties because of 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:37.199 the wars and so on in the situation in Egypt, 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.000 many more I think started to migrate in the late 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.920 sixties and that continued for some time from the Coptic 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:43.760 Orthodox Faith. 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.199 We need to take a break. Nick Caldas is my 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:50.080 guest behind the badge backshortly, folks, Welcome back everybody. If 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:52.320 you just tuned in, we're speaking with Nick Caldice he's 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:56.400 a very affable gentleman. He was the Deputy Commissioner of 0:09:56.440 --> 0:10:01.040 Police in New South Wales and resigned after a stellar 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.600 career and went and did some other great things, not 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.760 the least of which was chairing the Commission into Veterans Suicide. 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.199 I know there's a longer title to that, Nick and 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.280 will come to that. He's recounted his life story and 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:17.280 behind the badge. So you're a young fellow, immigrated from 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.160 Egypt when you're twelve, go to school. I do well 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:21.160 at school or did you? 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:21.560 Just? Yeah? 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:24.600 I did reasonably well, not as well as my brother 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:28.800 who was who's incredibly bright and committed, and he went 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:30.760 on to do medicine, as I mentioned earlier. 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.480 Yeah, did sport embrace you? Or did you embrace sport? 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:35.599 Yeah? 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.760 I'd liked I played rugby league. I also played soccer. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.679 I didn't like cricket and still don't, I have to say, 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:47.160 but I played soccer almost into my twenties and I 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.800 quite enjoy all sports now, particularly rugby league and rugby union. 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.240 And my son has played both leagues and union, and 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.520 I obviously used to go and watch him all the time. 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:01.840 He's a pan of which I'm sort of quite proud 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:04.199 of we're paying out of supporters. He didn't have any choice. 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:05.520 He was born into it. 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:08.840 So you leave school and you go to work in 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:12.840 an insurance company. What attracted you to the police force. 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.080 I think I always wanted to join the police force grant, 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.520 but I just in that stage. So it's a sort 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.040 of late seventies early eighties. There were height requirements and 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.320 I didn't think I was tall enough, so I put 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:26.800 it off for a few years and it. 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:27.319 Didn't hurt me. 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:29.880 I've got some life experience, and that's some really good 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.719 friends made for good friends. An insurance company and so 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.560 on that I was working at and superannuation. But then 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.280 eventually I pumped up the courage and went in. And 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.079 I was tall enough, there's no problem. But if you 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.360 can believe it, I was too skinny. I had to 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:46.960 put on away. I haven't had that problem since then. 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:49.800 But I always wanted to do it, and I knew 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:51.960 I wanted to go into criminal investigations, so you had 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.160 to do a minimum three years. I did about three 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.800 and a half years in uniform on the truck around 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:01.880 Balmain and light Art, and then went into the detectives. 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.240 Selected to go into the detectives, and then there's a 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.920 couple of years of studying after that to become an 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.160 actual detective. You're a playing clothes constable, not a detective 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.679 until you complete the training and you're accredited getting your 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:15.040 designation as a detective. 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.560 There's a photo of you on your graduation. You're a 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.600 fine cut of a young man. 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.880 I was quite skinny, but I was fit in those days. 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.840 But you know, I look at you, you look at 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:29.520 current photos. 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:31.640 And he said, the ravages of time. 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:35.560 Tell me about it. But what attracted you to policing? 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:36.880 Was there anything specific? 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:39.719 I think, and I think I mentioned it in the 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.720 book that I have a friend who's a former deputy 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.440 commissioner from NYPD in New York, Mark Julian, who talks 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.080 about why people join the police, and he's a bit 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.280 of a philosopher, and he says, at some stage, you've 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.079 seen or witnessed bullying, or you've been the victim of bullying, 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.160 and somehow' s upconsciously. He thinks we all join the 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.640 police to right wrongs and to help those who can't 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.560 help themselves, and to stand up to bullies. And I 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.520 think in many ways that was sort of the unsaid. 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.760 Almost the undiagnosed reason for me joining. I thought it 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:14.800 would be a sort of great noble cause, and certain 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.480 in plane clothes or criminal investigation in particular, that is 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.320 exactly what you do, whether investigating murders or arm robberies 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.360 or rapes or whatever it might be, the people who 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.840 are essentially bullies and have done terrible things to others, 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.880 and you're righting wrongs hopefully every day. 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.480 You would describe a couple of cases in the book, 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.520 one as the murder of John Newman, who was a politician. 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.199 He was a member of Parliament in New South Wales 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:41.400 in nineteen ninety four. 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:45.520 That was going to great detail which I found really 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.199 interesting about how you were able to find the gun 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.760 that was used in the shooting, and can you just 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:54.040 give us a sure? I mean, people have to buy 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:54.719 the book, I know. 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.680 That, but I hope they do. 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:02.640 But very briefly, Grant took seven years from murder to conviction. 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:07.640 An awful lot happened, but essentially this fellow was a 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.080 political opponent of John Newman, and John Newman had said 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:12.800 to him, You're never going to get anywhere as long 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.280 as I'm around, because I think you're a crook, and 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:19.840 he was a crook, so he approached three different groups 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:21.280 to do it, all of whom knocked it back at 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.600 all of whom we found and turned and they all 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.640 gave evidence to that effect. And we were probably one 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.920 of the first investigated investigative groups to use and communications analysis, 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.760 analyzing the phone calls, records of the phone calls, which 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.720 broadly tell you where people were and when, and they 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:40.840 were certainly all around the time of the murder, in 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.520 the vicinity of the murder. And then after the murder, 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:48.720 the murderer fun Can, who's been convicted and sentenced to life, 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:54.120 went to the footbridge, a voyager point in the George's River, 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.520 and cutting a long story short, some years later we 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.760 dredged the river found the murder weapon there, which was 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:06.120 matched ballistically after some effort by the German police, who 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.240 had an excellent forensic capacity for that sort of thing, 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.320 because the gun had rusted very quickly and rodded. We 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:15.239 can prove that the murderer was at this spot immediately 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.800 after the murder, and we found the murder weapon there 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.200 which was matched ballistically. And as I said, and there's 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.600 a lot of other circumstantial evidence, but. 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.280 You would have thought. Looks, it was twenty miles away 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.360 from the murder scene, wasn't it. There was some distance 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:29.480 away from the murder scene. 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:31.520 Yeah, I think it was about ten fifteen kilometers something 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:32.640 like that. Yeah, not too far. 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.240 So he stopped at a bridge and he's throwing the gun. 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:37.720 You think there'd be no way in the world that 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.520 anybody could find that gun. Well, that's an amazing piece 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:42.640 of place it was. 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.120 But the phone records is what led us there, because 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.400 he stood there making calls, trying to alibi himself, if 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:52.360 you like saying, Now, I was on the phone, and 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:54.720 the phones are what did him in because that led 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.520 us to where the gun was, and it proved conclusively 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.360 that he was there at the time and place of 0:15:59.400 --> 0:15:59.960 the murder. 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:02.960 Having said all of that, we had hearings. 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.600 In the Crime Commission to try and roll some of 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:06.800 these people he had approached, and then we had a 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:10.040 coroner's inquest which went for some months. Then we had 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.600 a three month committal hearing in the lower court, and 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.320 we had three Supreme Court trials. The last one was 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.000 where he was convicted, and then he appealed to the 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.360 Supreme Court of New soathwas a court a criminal appeal, 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:22.880 it was knocked back, and then he tried to appeal 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.400 to the High Court of Australia, which refused to hear 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:29.360 his appeal, saying you haven't got any reasonable grounds. And 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:31.760 then he was granted the Royal Commission into his conviction, 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.040 which went for nine months. So it was probably the 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:37.840 most scrutinized investigation I've had anything to do with. But 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:41.400 despite all of that, and despite the overwhelming evidence which 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.720 was described as they have a willing evidence by the 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:48.280 Royal Commissioner, Judge Patten, who said that he couldn't find 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:50.880 a scare of evidence that I or the other members 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.880 of the team had done anything wrong, there are still 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.440 people saying he was framed and that he should be released. 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:01.000 I mean, it's just it's astounding, really you mention. 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.000 But one of the jurors in the first. 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.920 Trial, yes, the second. The first one was aboarded. 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.879 Unfortunately the second one, there was one juror who simply 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.760 refused to convict, and we know now that it was 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.040 eleven to one and they advised the judge that they 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.600 will not be able to reach the verdict. And some 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:21.760 of the jurors when they told the judge that were 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:25.960 crying in the jury box and the court. There was 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:30.960 a very very sad, you know, very dreadful sequence of events. 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:34.639 Really, as a policeman, you see, you see good, but 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.280 you see the worst of life. What was the worst 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.720 case you're involved in? Can you recount that? 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:42.639 I think some of the murders we've seen, I think 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.520 there's one I mentioned in the book where a really bright, 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:49.120 nice young fellow went to a dance party in Castle 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.479 Hill and had a fight with someone who stabbed him 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.520 to death on the dance floor. I mean, just two 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.960 lives there. Lost one victim obviously has lost his life, 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.159 but the offense that ended up getting a very lengthy 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:06.760 sentence in jail, and you know there's many family very 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:07.560 affected by that. 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:11.600 There's probably too many to think of. 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.600 But as you say, Grain, we certainly get to see 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.280 the best of humanity, but you also see the worst 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:18.560 of humanity as well. 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.160 Well. I'm intrigued as how you get selected to go 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:26.000 and investigate like a murderer in Lebanon and meet with 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:31.000 the head of the Syrian security forces. I mean, that's 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.639 intriguing to me. Nick Coldice is my guest, folks, former 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:39.000 Deputy Commissioner of Police in New South Wales. He's written 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.560 a book called Behind the Badge. Do good work, Live 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:43.919 by your belief, Fear no one. It is as I 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:45.800 said at the start, it's one of those books that 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.800 you just won't put down back shortly, Welcome back, everybody. 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.800 My guest on conversations today is Nick Caldice. He's a 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.720 former policeman. He achieved the rank of Deputy Commissioner of 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.399 Police in New South Wales and often did other amazing 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.600 things which will come to and he's recounted the adventures 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.479 in his book Behind the Bat with Roger Joyce. Roger's 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.800 a journalist, I guess is he. 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:10.000 He's more a writer. 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.080 I think he's written a lot of other people's books, 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:15.439 and he has written I think screenplays for movies and 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:15.880 so on. 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.840 How on earth does a policeman in New South Wales 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.520 get to ask to go and investigate the murder of 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:25.400 a Lebanese prime minister. 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.719 I had served for most of a year in two 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.439 thousand and four as a senior police advisor in Iraq 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.639 with coalition forces. So the FBI and other people on 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:41.119 you in US circles asked for me to go to 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.800 Iraq to rebuild the Iraqi police. So I got noticed. 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:46.560