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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detectives see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For 25 of those years I was catching killers. That's

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Speaker 1: what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Natasha

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Speaker 1: Concealy has lived more life than most people could imagine.

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Speaker 1: She's been a stripper, lingerie model, air hostess, convicted drug dealer,

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Speaker 1: and eventually found herself in prison. It's been a wild ride,

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Speaker 1: built on tragedy early in her life. She partied hard,

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Speaker 1: made some mistakes that had big consequences. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: she speaks with me about the highs and lows of

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Speaker 1: her life, her regrets, and how she's turned her life

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Speaker 1: around and is now giving back to society. There is

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Speaker 1: a cautionary tale in the story that is worth listening to.

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Speaker 1: Natasha Kinsele. Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, Gary. Great to be here.

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Speaker 1: I got speaking to you yesterday and reading some of

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Speaker 1: the stuff that's online. You're in a good space now. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: You feel like, I get the sense you've come like

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Speaker 1: the full circle and you've found who you are now. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: A long road, but you've got there. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I definitely am. I've come home to myself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I've spoken about it before. I always lacked a

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Speaker 2: sense of belonging, even though it was always there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But I just didn't know. what that meant and how

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Speaker 2: that felt. And now I belong within myself and it's

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Speaker 2: a beautiful space to be. I love the person I

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Speaker 2: am today and I love how she shows up in

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Speaker 2: the world. I don't berate myself for my past mistakes.

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Speaker 2: I give myself some grace and I really love all

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Speaker 2: those bits as well along the way, even though some

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Speaker 2: of them, you know, you look back and you go,

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Speaker 2: I don't really like what she did or the choices

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Speaker 2: she made, but I still embrace her as well because

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Speaker 2: she's part of me.

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Speaker 1: I've had a lot of people sit opposite here in

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Speaker 1: the studio and talk about their life and accepting who

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Speaker 1: you are. And yeah, we talk about forgiveness, but forgiving

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Speaker 1: yourself is a big, big thing, isn't it? Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I think we are our own worst critic, all of

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Speaker 2: us within ourselves, right? People judge us regardless. We can't

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Speaker 2: do much about what other people think, but how we

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Speaker 2: view ourselves is what is so important and it changes

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Speaker 2: the way that you view the world. If you have

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Speaker 2: some kindness towards yourself and some gratitude for the things

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Speaker 2: that you do have, you know, you start to view

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Speaker 2: the world in a different light and then you start

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Speaker 2: interacting with it in a different way.

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Speaker 1: Another thing, when I was talking to you the other day,

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Speaker 1: you said when you went to jail, you realised how

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Speaker 1: privileged you were. Yes. Which is like, you know, what

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Speaker 1: did jail mean to you? And that's not the answer

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Speaker 1: I was expecting, but talk us through that, what you

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Speaker 1: meant by that.

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Speaker 2: I was almost embarrassed for the privileges and the choices

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Speaker 2: that I'd had throughout my life. I've always had choice.

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Speaker 2: I've had access to education. I've had access to travel.

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Speaker 2: I've had access to people that love me and care

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Speaker 2: for me from when I was a child all through

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Speaker 2: my adulthood, throughout my life. And the women that I

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Speaker 2: met who were incarcerated, and this is the majority of them,

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Speaker 2: were lacking either all of those things or or even

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Speaker 2: just one of them. There had never been opportunity. There

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Speaker 2: had not been a loving family. Education was not something

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Speaker 2: that was offered. If your home isn't safe, the last

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Speaker 2: thing that you're going to do is turn up at

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Speaker 2: school and get the things that you need to do

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Speaker 2: to turn it around. And I just, I always thought

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Speaker 2: that everybody had choice. Even before I went to prison

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Speaker 2: and I went to some pretty crazy places with some

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Speaker 2: pretty crazy people and saw some things. But I never

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Speaker 2: realized the disadvantage that some of us live in. And

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Speaker 2: I always believed that even they had choices. But when

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Speaker 2: it compounds and you have no other people around you,

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Speaker 2: only the ones that are all doing that, living that life,

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Speaker 2: that same system, how do you get out of it?

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Speaker 1: And it's opened my eyes up since I left the

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Speaker 1: police and seen some of the circumstances that people have

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Speaker 1: grown up in. And who are we to judge? Yes.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's got their own story. Everyone's got the things that

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Speaker 1: have impacted on their life. But it was interesting that

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Speaker 1: your experience in prison and the thing that one of

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Speaker 1: the big takeaways was how privileged you are. And it

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Speaker 1: shows a degree of empathy, which I think is a

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Speaker 1: good thing. It is. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We've got to have empathy and even if we don't understand, right,

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Speaker 2: and we may not agree, but if we have empathy

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Speaker 2: for each other because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: we're all human and we all should have opportunity and

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Speaker 2: we should all have access to those simple things that

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Speaker 2: I've just said, to opportunities to choose to change, to

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Speaker 2: a safe home to grow up in, to education, to employment.

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Speaker 2: They're not privileges. I think every human being deserves access

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Speaker 2: to that. And as much as maybe, you know, some

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Speaker 2: people that have never experienced that there is a whole

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Speaker 2: nother side and it is in our country. Look, I

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Speaker 2: spent a lot of time in India as a child

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Speaker 2: and I knew what poverty meant and no access. I

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Speaker 2: understood that, but that was explained to me that it

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Speaker 2: was a third world country and they were very poor.

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Speaker 2: I didn't see Australia as being a third world country

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Speaker 2: and I still don't.

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Speaker 1: No, well, Australia doesn't see themselves as.

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Speaker 2: A third world country. But we have.

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Speaker 1: Underprivileged.

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Speaker 2: We have the same poverty. We have homeless people everywhere

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Speaker 2: and people are so... This is my opinion, right? I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying that it is right, but this is what

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Speaker 2: I've learned throughout my journey. We are taught that... We

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Speaker 2: have access and everybody does. So it's easy for us

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Speaker 2: to sit here and go, oh, well, they did something

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Speaker 2: and that's why they ended up there. It's their own fault.

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Speaker 2: They could have chosen differently.

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Speaker 1: We have got a lot to talk about. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to talk about your upbringing because I think that's very

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Speaker 1: interesting and what happened there. how you found yourself working

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Speaker 1: as a lingerie model and stripper. We've all got stories

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Speaker 1: to tell.

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Speaker 2: It was a really fun time, Gary. It was wild.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't change that for the world.

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Speaker 1: I would describe, and I think, a wild life that

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Speaker 1: you've had, but it's always an interest because that's what

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Speaker 1: I wanted to start how you are now. There's been

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Speaker 1: a journey to get to this zen-like place. state that

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Speaker 1: you're in now and happy with the world. Your drug use,

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Speaker 1: you started off as rave parties and recreational drug use,

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Speaker 1: then it becomes an addiction. And then you ended up

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Speaker 1: dealing drugs and doing time in prison. Okay, this is

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Speaker 1: a cycle, but there is a light at the end

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Speaker 1: of the tunnel that we'll talk about. But since then

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Speaker 1: and the experience leading up to jail and, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're taking stock of your life. You've managed to turn

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Speaker 1: your life around. You're very much focusing on advocacy and

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Speaker 1: helping people and contributing back to society. So that's just

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Speaker 1: summing up your life very quickly.

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Speaker 2: That was a great sum up. I love it.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Well, now we'll see if it follows that trend. script.

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Speaker 1: Talk about your childhood, because I think, spoiler alert, traveling

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Speaker 1: around with your hippie mum in India from the age

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Speaker 1: of five to 10, I think is a pretty interesting start.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pretty wild. I think even looking back

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Speaker 2: to that earlier ages in Adelaide, my parents had a

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Speaker 2: beautiful home. I was close to my grandparents, so I

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Speaker 2: had a really loving environment that I grew up in.

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Speaker 2: I had a a spirit. My mum's friends talk about

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Speaker 2: it these days and they just go, you were always

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Speaker 2: defiant and you were really wild. And it was, you

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Speaker 2: had this real kind of your way or no way

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Speaker 2: from a really young age. So I'd like to say

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Speaker 2: that my environment created me, but it didn't.

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Speaker 1: You were going to find trouble somehow.

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Speaker 2: I definitely was, regardless of how my life was going.

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Speaker 2: And I guess you know, experiencing India at a really

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Speaker 2: young age with my mom was, it was incredibly, um,

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Speaker 2: eye opening. Uh, it was beautiful. It was scary. Um,

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Speaker 2: and it was, uh, You know, we were surrounded by

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Speaker 2: lots of artistic people. We went to Goa on stage.

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Speaker 1: You were doing the, mum was on the full hippie trip. Yes, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Around that time. Yeah. And Goa was recognised for that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it was. And, you know, mum's friends would wear

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Speaker 2: big shells on their head and everybody had things they

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Speaker 2: were selling at the market there in Arjuna. And it

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Speaker 2: was fantastic. you know, the kids would just run wild

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Speaker 2: and parents would, you know, party all night and the

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Speaker 2: kids would be at one person's place and you kind

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Speaker 2: of were just really free.

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Speaker 1: A lot of freedom, yeah.

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Speaker 2: A lot of freedom. And then I was lucky enough

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Speaker 2: that my father was in Europe so we'd go and

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Speaker 2: visit him. They were no longer together but we would

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Speaker 2: go and visit him and mum would just work in

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Speaker 2: a jewelry studio somewhere, make some jewelry. We'd stay with

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Speaker 2: dad wherever he was living and I'd just go to

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Speaker 2: school wherever we were. So I kind of visited school

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Speaker 2: in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, all different places throughout those years.

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Speaker 1: Well, that has to shape you. It does. You'd have

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Speaker 1: to be self-sufficient in looking after yourself, meeting new people,

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Speaker 1: different languages, a whole range of things that would have

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Speaker 1: kicked in.

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Speaker 2: And I did it really well. And I think what

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Speaker 2: I learned there was to assimilate really well. which then

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Speaker 2: later on in life became a little bit, I got

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Speaker 2: lost in that rather than finding myself or being within

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Speaker 2: how comfortable who I was. Um, I would just assimilate

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Speaker 2: to whatever environment that I, I was choosing. And I'm,

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Speaker 2: later on when drugs and mental health were really bad.

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Speaker 2: That was kind of what was, I was really lost

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Speaker 2: and I didn't have that belonging.

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Speaker 1: Because you came back, was it the teenage years, Newtown

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Speaker 1: and going to the school, Newtown. So that would have

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Speaker 1: been the experience too. So going from Goa, traveling the

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Speaker 1: world and then going there. But before we talk about that,

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Speaker 1: there was a significant thing and you spoke about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you're happy to talk about it. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Your mum died at the age of when you were

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Speaker 1: 10 years old in an accident in India, I believe.

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Speaker 2: We're in Goa and we're there for the season and

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Speaker 2: we're planning to go to Ibiza next and Bali and

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Speaker 2: do the whole hippie trail. And I was really sick

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Speaker 2: that day and we had a lady who rented us

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Speaker 2: the house that we were living in and she stayed

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Speaker 2: with me. Mum took longer than normal and I remember

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Speaker 2: this day like it was yesterday. I will never forget.

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Speaker 2: And I was so unwell. I had fever and that

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Speaker 2: kind of stuff but I wouldn't go back to bed

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Speaker 2: and I kept standing in the doorway and I was fretting.

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Speaker 2: And then I think it was just before sunset that

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Speaker 2: two foreigners came walking up the beach and one of

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Speaker 2: them had mum's handbag and he was wearing white and

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Speaker 2: he had blood all over his clothes. Mum had been

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Speaker 2: hit by a truck coming around her corner, blind corner,

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Speaker 2: full frontal, no helmet on, on a motorbike. So she

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Speaker 2: didn't die instantly, but would have had severe brain damage

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Speaker 2: if she had survived. Obviously, we had a big network

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Speaker 2: of people that I could then be looked after while

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Speaker 2: the police, Indian police, reached out to my grandparents because

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Speaker 2: they couldn't find dad. My grandparents then reached out to

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Speaker 2: my father and he, because they were all like, we'll

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Speaker 2: take her if you can't, because they knew that he'd

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Speaker 2: only just been settling back in Switzerland.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But he came and I think mum died the day

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Speaker 2: before he got to India.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: And he had to tell his 10-year-old daughter, sorry, I

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Speaker 2: get emotional around this, that her mum had died. So,

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Speaker 2: and I remember he, to this day, we've got a

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Speaker 2: really great relationship, me and my dad. To this day,

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Speaker 2: he goes, you know, Natasha, I was devastated. You were

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Speaker 2: the one that hugged me and said, it's going to

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Speaker 2: be okay, Dad. We can do this.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: As a little 10-year-old girl.

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Speaker 1: Insight and to be able to step up in circumstances

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Speaker 1: like that. Look, I'm sorry that happened. That has to

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Speaker 1: have an impact on you. At the age of 10,

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Speaker 1: there's no time as a child that's good where someone

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Speaker 1: close to you dies. But to lose your mum at 10,

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Speaker 1: and I would imagine the lifestyle you were living, you

250
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Speaker 1: would have been inseparable.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we were.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that had to have a significant impact on you.

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Speaker 1: You spent time with your dad in different countries and

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Speaker 1: then you came back over here. Who were you living

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Speaker 1: with over here when you went to school at Newtown?

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Speaker 2: All right, so my mum's best friend who had a

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Speaker 2: daughter a similar age to me, they had met in

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Speaker 2: Adelaide and become really close and they always promised each

259
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Speaker 2: other that they would look after us girls if something

260
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Speaker 2: ever happened to the other. And Corrie had kept that

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Speaker 2: promise and continued to stay in touch with us in Switzerland.

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Speaker 2: And then when I said to dad, I want to

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Speaker 2: go see my grandparents and Corrie and Morgana and all that.

264
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Speaker 2: So I stayed with them and they said, why don't

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Speaker 2: you do a bigger trip and freshen your English and

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Speaker 2: come back and do a bit of school here and

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Speaker 2: all that. So I was, I think I was like 15,

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Speaker 2: 16 and I was angry. By this stage, because that

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Speaker 2: little girl that hugged her dad and said, everything's going

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Speaker 2: to be okay, then went, okay, I've got to make

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Speaker 2: everything okay.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So she then, there was no grieving. There was no,

274
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Speaker 2: everything was always, I'm fine. And I know that they

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Speaker 2: encouraged me to see a child psychologist and all of

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Speaker 2: that in Switzerland. But I just said, I'm fine. I

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Speaker 2: don't need your help. And I literally shut everyone down.

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Speaker 2: And then my teens hit and we all know that

279
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Speaker 2: they're really difficult for everybody, for girls and boys. You

280
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Speaker 2: are changing into something different. And I couldn't manage my

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Speaker 2: own emotions. I was mad. I was really angry with

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Speaker 2: the world. And so Dad thought it might be really

283
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Speaker 2: good for me to go home and have some time.

284
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Speaker 2: I actually had a massive... falling out with my grandparents

285
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Speaker 2: while I was here at that age.

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Speaker 1: Were they rebellious?

287
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Speaker 2: Yeah, because I just was like, I'm going out, I'm partying.

288
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Speaker 2: I was going to clubs and they had moved from

289
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Speaker 2: Adelaide to the Gold Coast and I was out clubbing

290
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Speaker 2: at 15. I looked like I was 20, but you know.

291
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Speaker 1: What could possibly go wrong?

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Speaker 2: Oh, what could go wrong?

293
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Speaker 1: And what would your grandparents know telling you that you're

294
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Speaker 1: doing that?

295
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Speaker 2: You know, they were just trying to look out for

296
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Speaker 2: me and to make better choices. But I didn't want

297
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Speaker 2: to hear that at this stage. And I think I

298
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Speaker 2: was mad at them too because they had been there.

299
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Speaker 2: They'd always, you know, we'd spoke on the phone and

300
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Speaker 2: they've written me cards. But I was mad at everybody

301
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Speaker 2: because everyone had kind of left me because I had

302
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Speaker 2: went to Switzerland with Dad, but obviously that thinking.

303
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Speaker 1: Your anger could have been directed in all sorts of ways.

304
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Speaker 2: It was.

305
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Speaker 1: And you probably didn't even know what the anger was about. No,

306
00:15:46,860 --> 00:15:49,380
Speaker 1: I was. But you're just angry. And I understand what

307
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Speaker 1: you're saying. You've been the strong one but not looking

308
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Speaker 1: after yourself and, you know, supporting your dad at 10.

309
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Speaker 1: So you had to grow up really, really quickly at

310
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Speaker 1: that age when you're going to be the strong person.

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Speaker 1: So it's all, you know, if we're marking it out,

312
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Speaker 1: you can see, okay, something could go wrong here. Yeah.

313
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Speaker 1: You started to get into rave parties and the.

314
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Speaker 2: That's when I got back to Switzerland. Right. So I

315
00:16:16,950 --> 00:16:20,400
Speaker 2: kind of floated around, lost for a bit. I started

316
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,040
Speaker 2: an apprenticeship as a tailor, but I didn't like sitting

317
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Speaker 2: in a room sewing every day. So I said, Dad,

318
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Speaker 2: I don't really want to do this. Because I said

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Speaker 2: to him when I got back, I said, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to live in Switzerland. I want to go back

321
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Speaker 2: to Australia. And his one condition was, because I had

322
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Speaker 2: like with my step-mom and there'd been all these different

323
00:16:36,510 --> 00:16:38,310
Speaker 2: troubles and I won't go into it. But at the

324
00:16:38,350 --> 00:16:40,610
Speaker 2: end of the day, dad always supported me, but he

325
00:16:40,650 --> 00:16:43,650
Speaker 2: had certain things that he just went, I may not

326
00:16:43,690 --> 00:16:46,350
Speaker 2: agree with what you're doing or I don't really like it,

327
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Speaker 2: but this is the one condition I really will expect

328
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Speaker 2: from you. You finished school, you didn't like it. I

329
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,600
Speaker 2: want you to get some kind of trade, something, an

330
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,970
Speaker 2: apprenticeship or something. So that was kind of what I

331
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,330
Speaker 2: was working towards. I had no idea what I wanted

332
00:17:00,370 --> 00:17:03,090
Speaker 2: to do. I was under the impression that You had

333
00:17:03,130 --> 00:17:05,020
Speaker 2: to choose a career and then do that for the

334
00:17:05,060 --> 00:17:05,780
Speaker 2: rest of your life.

335
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,680
Speaker 1: Well, that was the time, wasn't it? That was back

336
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:08,120
Speaker 1: then it.

337
00:17:08,020 --> 00:17:12,980
Speaker 2: Was, yeah, the case. Like we're talking late 80s, early 90s,

338
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,220
Speaker 2: around that time. So I tried a lot of different

339
00:17:16,270 --> 00:17:21,530
Speaker 2: things and then I kind of fell into catering with

340
00:17:21,550 --> 00:17:25,110
Speaker 2: a group of girls and they'd do these great events

341
00:17:25,330 --> 00:17:27,290
Speaker 2: and I loved the women that I was working with.

342
00:17:27,850 --> 00:17:29,689
Speaker 2: And then I kind of went, I'm really good at this.

343
00:17:30,010 --> 00:17:31,990
Speaker 2: I'm really organized and that kind of stuff. So I

344
00:17:32,030 --> 00:17:34,550
Speaker 2: ended up doing an apprenticeship in a hotel.

345
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Speaker 1: Hospitality.

346
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,700
Speaker 2: Yeah, hospitality, housekeeping side of things. And it's really well

347
00:17:38,740 --> 00:17:42,600
Speaker 2: paid and it's really great job in Switzerland. And so

348
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 2: that was two years. And in the meantime, I was

349
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,820
Speaker 2: going out, I was raving. I met people who owned

350
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:51,460
Speaker 2: clubs in Zurich and just fell into that scene. And

351
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:54,610
Speaker 2: I loved the wildness of it. I loved the creativity

352
00:17:54,710 --> 00:17:57,150
Speaker 2: of DJs and how they made music.

353
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

354
00:17:57,910 --> 00:17:59,869
Speaker 2: My boyfriend at the time was a DJ and he'd

355
00:17:59,910 --> 00:18:01,540
Speaker 2: teach me a little bit and I was like, oh,

356
00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 2: maybe I'll be a DJ.

357
00:18:02,540 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 1: Oh, you would have been rocking at that stage. Yes.

358
00:18:06,740 --> 00:18:08,980
Speaker 2: And it was the days of, you know, they'd just

359
00:18:09,220 --> 00:18:12,440
Speaker 2: started so the party wasn't just on Saturday night. You

360
00:18:12,460 --> 00:18:14,979
Speaker 2: had the after hour that started at 6 a.m. on

361
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,860
Speaker 2: Sunday and that was the club that my friends owned.

362
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,090
Speaker 2: So I kind of worked there as well on the weekends,

363
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:24,770
Speaker 2: partied all weekend and it was– If I think back now, right,

364
00:18:24,910 --> 00:18:28,430
Speaker 2: and this is my introduction to drugs, was you read

365
00:18:28,450 --> 00:18:30,230
Speaker 2: a book about what the effects were going to be.

366
00:18:30,290 --> 00:18:33,649
Speaker 2: You informed yourself and you took clean drugs where you

367
00:18:33,670 --> 00:18:37,030
Speaker 2: knew where they came from with a bunch of safe people.

368
00:18:37,510 --> 00:18:39,790
Speaker 2: That's how I was introduced to drug taking. And it

369
00:18:39,810 --> 00:18:42,330
Speaker 2: was something that you did recreationally. It's not something that

370
00:18:42,369 --> 00:18:45,460
Speaker 2: you then relied on. So that was my whole impression around.

371
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,340
Speaker 2: I always thought that everybody that was taking drugs would

372
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:49,340
Speaker 2: do it safely, right?

373
00:18:49,380 --> 00:18:52,330
Speaker 1: In that environment, and yeah, we talk drugs and there's

374
00:18:52,380 --> 00:18:55,409
Speaker 1: a cautionary tale in this how people can fall into it.

375
00:18:56,220 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 1: It doesn't look like it's a dirty drug lab. It's

376
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,960
Speaker 1: out with the cool people. You feel like you found

377
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,290
Speaker 1: the meaning of life here. What are these straighties doing?

378
00:19:06,310 --> 00:19:08,400
Speaker 1: Look what I've found. Exactly. They have no idea how

379
00:19:08,420 --> 00:19:12,990
Speaker 1: good life is. So you can fall into that so easily.

380
00:19:13,170 --> 00:19:17,570
Speaker 2: And also my whole upbringing, right? Goa, hippies, pot, drugs,

381
00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:21,110
Speaker 2: parties for days. It was all normal. It was never–

382
00:19:21,369 --> 00:19:23,350
Speaker 2: I was never told, oh, drugs are bad.

383
00:19:23,369 --> 00:19:23,449
Speaker 1: Yeah.

384
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 2: I was told maybe be really smart in how you

385
00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:28,540
Speaker 2: choose to take drugs and who you take them with

386
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:29,580
Speaker 2: and where they come from.

387
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:29,899
Speaker 1: Yeah.

388
00:19:30,180 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 2: Right? So those were maybe the cautionary tales that I

389
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,869
Speaker 2: was told around that stuff. And I was allowed to

390
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,390
Speaker 2: make my own decisions, whether people were– like my dad

391
00:19:39,630 --> 00:19:41,570
Speaker 2: didn't agree with a lot of decisions that I made

392
00:19:41,630 --> 00:19:44,090
Speaker 2: in life, but he said, look, Tash, I'll always be

393
00:19:44,130 --> 00:19:47,310
Speaker 2: here for you. So I had that safe person that

394
00:19:47,390 --> 00:19:49,399
Speaker 2: even if I had of, you know, I'm going to

395
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,200
Speaker 2: say if I committed murder, I could have gone home

396
00:19:52,220 --> 00:19:54,619
Speaker 2: and gone, Dad, help me. You know, he wouldn't have

397
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:55,740
Speaker 2: turned me away.

398
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,840
Speaker 1: I think from a parenting point of view, that's probably

399
00:19:58,859 --> 00:20:01,010
Speaker 1: the best you can do with that. Because if he said, no,

400
00:20:01,050 --> 00:20:03,909
Speaker 1: don't do that, that would have been a falling out

401
00:20:04,030 --> 00:20:06,450
Speaker 1: and would have lost the connection.

402
00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:08,450
Speaker 2: Because I would have done it anyway, which I did.

403
00:20:08,470 --> 00:20:08,610
Speaker 1: Yeah.

404
00:20:10,490 --> 00:20:13,110
Speaker 2: I did everything that people told me maybe not to do.

405
00:20:13,230 --> 00:20:13,550
Speaker 1: Yeah.

406
00:20:13,670 --> 00:20:15,310
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, just go and try that. That

407
00:20:15,330 --> 00:20:17,930
Speaker 2: looks really bad and interesting. So, yeah.

408
00:20:17,950 --> 00:20:20,060
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, if he took a harder line, you probably

409
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,940
Speaker 1: would have gone harder yourself. Yeah. Okay. Take it to

410
00:20:22,980 --> 00:20:27,980
Speaker 1: the extreme. So, that was overseas. Yeah. The rave party

411
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,000
Speaker 1: and that. When did you come back over here?

412
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:36,160
Speaker 2: So, I finished my apprenticeship in– 1996. And I was like, okay,

413
00:20:36,180 --> 00:20:38,530
Speaker 2: I'm moving back to Australia. See you later. Dumped my

414
00:20:38,570 --> 00:20:40,909
Speaker 2: poor boyfriend who was, I think he thought we were

415
00:20:40,930 --> 00:20:44,170
Speaker 2: going to get married and raise a family, which was never.

416
00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:45,510
Speaker 1: Do you feel bad about that now?

417
00:20:47,420 --> 00:20:48,700
Speaker 2: Maybe just about how it happened.

418
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:49,740
Speaker 1: Okay.

419
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,900
Speaker 2: But not really because he was actually a really nice guy. Yeah, yeah.

420
00:20:52,980 --> 00:20:54,770
Speaker 2: But I wasn't the best girlfriend in the world. I

421
00:20:54,810 --> 00:20:55,490
Speaker 2: was just wild.

422
00:20:55,510 --> 00:20:56,450
Speaker 1: Yeah.

423
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:58,870
Speaker 2: So that was kind of a blessing in disguise for him,

424
00:20:59,150 --> 00:20:59,530
Speaker 2: I guess.

425
00:20:59,570 --> 00:21:00,649
Speaker 1: He dodged the bullet there.

426
00:21:00,690 --> 00:21:01,389
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he did.

427
00:21:01,470 --> 00:21:01,690
Speaker 1: Okay.

428
00:21:02,010 --> 00:21:03,889
Speaker 2: And then I was like, okay, well, I want to

429
00:21:03,930 --> 00:21:06,470
Speaker 2: travel first. So me and my girlfriend went and did

430
00:21:06,510 --> 00:21:09,950
Speaker 2: a tour of Indonesia on my way over. I was so–

431
00:21:13,460 --> 00:21:15,700
Speaker 2: Not even, I wouldn't call it hungover. I just hadn't

432
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,420
Speaker 2: slept for about three months before I left, right?

433
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,220
Speaker 1: So I was. But from the rave scene.

434
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,620
Speaker 2: Yeah, from partying because I knew I was leaving, so

435
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,199
Speaker 2: I was just let's go, right? And I got to

436
00:21:26,260 --> 00:21:29,620
Speaker 2: Indonesia and I was just like. And then I got

437
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: to Australia and life was really quiet because obviously I

438
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,180
Speaker 2: didn't know that many people. I had to reestablish where

439
00:21:37,220 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 2: I was going to be, where I fit in. My Morgana,

440
00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:43,220
Speaker 2: who I call my sister, Corrie's daughter, I moved in

441
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 2: with her and her partner in Alexandria and they were,

442
00:21:47,140 --> 00:21:49,790
Speaker 2: you know, into the music scene. They both played in

443
00:21:49,869 --> 00:21:52,050
Speaker 2: bands and so I'd go along to all of that,

444
00:21:52,090 --> 00:21:55,389
Speaker 2: but it wasn't really my scene. Anyway, so one of

445
00:21:55,430 --> 00:21:58,490
Speaker 2: the boys I met there, his sister was in Bad

446
00:21:58,530 --> 00:22:02,920
Speaker 2: Girls Australia. It was one of those touring national striptease shows.

447
00:22:02,980 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 2: And he goes, have you thought about doing some lingerie waitressing?

448
00:22:05,780 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 2: It'd be amazing. I go, what the hell is lingerie waitressing, right?

449
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 1: I'm like, what?

450
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,310
Speaker 2: I'm from Switzerland. I don't know what this is. And

451
00:22:12,330 --> 00:22:13,730
Speaker 2: he goes, oh, you just put your knickers on and

452
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 2: go walk around the pub and serve some beers.

453
00:22:16,130 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 1: Very Australian.

454
00:22:17,020 --> 00:22:20,239
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yes, I found my calling. It was

455
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,369
Speaker 2: the best. I made more tips in one day in

456
00:22:24,410 --> 00:22:27,310
Speaker 2: those pubs than I had a whole week's wage.

457
00:22:27,330 --> 00:22:28,189
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Right?

458
00:22:28,390 --> 00:22:32,270
Speaker 2: And it was– the 90s. It was pumping. It was everywhere.

459
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:35,470
Speaker 1: With the Bad Girls, were they all based in Sydney

460
00:22:35,530 --> 00:22:36,590
Speaker 1: or were you touring or?

461
00:22:36,770 --> 00:22:39,590
Speaker 2: No, I didn't join the Bad Girls. That was his sister.

462
00:22:39,609 --> 00:22:42,929
Speaker 2: So that's why he had connections to the agencies.

463
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:43,230
Speaker 1: Yeah.

464
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:46,659
Speaker 2: So that was all in Sydney at this point. And

465
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:50,860
Speaker 2: then I saw my first striptease show where I'm still

466
00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:53,939
Speaker 2: friends with this girl and she just had legs up

467
00:22:53,980 --> 00:22:58,250
Speaker 2: to here and had this amazing costume on. The music

468
00:22:58,290 --> 00:23:01,869
Speaker 2: was great. The show, the dancing was amazing. And I

469
00:23:01,890 --> 00:23:04,650
Speaker 2: just went, oh my God, that's what I want to do.

470
00:23:04,670 --> 00:23:06,750
Speaker 2: So I just fell in love with that. And then

471
00:23:06,790 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 2: I met the lady who ran Fever Productions, Diane, and

472
00:23:09,910 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 2: she taught me how to dance. So I had done

473
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,500
Speaker 2: dancing before when I was younger, but taught me the

474
00:23:16,619 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: art of striptease, right? And so then I toured with

475
00:23:20,060 --> 00:23:24,790
Speaker 2: her all around Australia and just loved the freedom of

476
00:23:24,850 --> 00:23:29,050
Speaker 2: it all. the girls, the friendships that I built.

477
00:23:30,810 --> 00:23:34,350
Speaker 1: So just on you, you were comfortable with it? Yeah, absolutely.

478
00:23:34,410 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: Have I compromised myself or is there something that, yeah,

479
00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:40,620
Speaker 1: this wasn't what I expected I'd be doing in life?

480
00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:43,379
Speaker 1: But when you're talking about it, I see the smile

481
00:23:43,460 --> 00:23:44,940
Speaker 1: on your face and you think, well, it was a

482
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: good time.

483
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,460
Speaker 2: It was a really good time. I found myself a

484
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,700
Speaker 2: little bit in there. It gave me some confidence back.

485
00:23:52,340 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 2: around my body and who I was as a woman. Uh,

486
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 2: it also allowed me to have really, I always had

487
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 2: really clear boundaries, but you know, there was no touching

488
00:24:02,220 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 2: involved and there was, I'm not saying there's anything wrong

489
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,330
Speaker 2: with being a sex worker, but that wasn't where this

490
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:09,970
Speaker 2: was ever going to go. So there was really clear,

491
00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:13,190
Speaker 2: you know, rules around it. I would either have a

492
00:24:13,230 --> 00:24:17,109
Speaker 2: driver with me or at private parties or no one

493
00:24:17,150 --> 00:24:20,250
Speaker 2: really effed with me anyway. I just kind of have.

494
00:24:20,410 --> 00:24:22,510
Speaker 1: You got that. Yeah. Don't fuck with me.

495
00:24:22,590 --> 00:24:23,550
Speaker 2: Yes, pretty much.

496
00:24:23,630 --> 00:24:27,010
Speaker 1: Attitude. And I suppose the worldly upbringing that you had,

497
00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:32,780
Speaker 1: you would know how to manage yourself around situations. With it, did,

498
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: because I've spoken to a number of people, I know

499
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: girls that have worked in the industry and, you know,

500
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,620
Speaker 1: the public perception is, but it's demeaning, it's this and that.

501
00:24:43,780 --> 00:24:46,330
Speaker 1: But then I've had girls say, it's quite empowering.

502
00:24:46,609 --> 00:24:47,950
Speaker 2: It's extremely empowering.

503
00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:48,150
Speaker 1: Yeah.

504
00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: And it's about accepting the fact that, you know, and

505
00:24:55,420 --> 00:24:58,260
Speaker 2: I don't want to sound sexist saying this in a way.

506
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,139
Speaker 1: Give it to the blokes.

507
00:25:00,460 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: Give it to the blokes. I'm sorry, but if you're

508
00:25:02,619 --> 00:25:06,100
Speaker 2: going to pull out money to look at me taking

509
00:25:06,140 --> 00:25:08,899
Speaker 2: my clothes off, I'm going to take that money, right? Yeah.

510
00:25:08,980 --> 00:25:09,740
Speaker 2: That's on you.

511
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

512
00:25:10,900 --> 00:25:12,459
Speaker 2: And, you know, you know the rules.

513
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

514
00:25:13,450 --> 00:25:16,169
Speaker 2: If that's what makes you happy, that's great.

515
00:25:16,790 --> 00:25:19,510
Speaker 1: I get it. Look, I think the blokes should be

516
00:25:19,650 --> 00:25:22,070
Speaker 1: criticised and they'll probably go, I don't care.

517
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:23,330
Speaker 2: And that's okay too.

518
00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:26,830
Speaker 1: But, yeah, because I think it's interesting discussing it with

519
00:25:26,869 --> 00:25:29,010
Speaker 1: people that have just got a little bit of different

520
00:25:29,050 --> 00:25:32,770
Speaker 1: perspective on it. It's not from the straighty 180 view of, no,

521
00:25:32,790 --> 00:25:35,170
Speaker 1: this is wrong, it's morally wrong. And do you know what?

522
00:25:35,270 --> 00:25:36,650
Speaker 2: To some people it might be wrong.

523
00:25:36,890 --> 00:25:36,990
Speaker 1: Yeah.

524
00:25:37,030 --> 00:25:40,430
Speaker 2: And that's okay. You're allowed to have that opinion. But

525
00:25:40,619 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: to me it gave me freedom. I earned a lot

526
00:25:42,859 --> 00:25:46,750
Speaker 2: of money doing that. And I traveled regularly. It gave

527
00:25:46,830 --> 00:25:51,030
Speaker 2: me the possibility to buy whatever I wanted to, to

528
00:25:51,070 --> 00:25:52,649
Speaker 2: go to the place, to go back and see my

529
00:25:52,670 --> 00:25:55,510
Speaker 2: dad in Switzerland, to have the freedom to leave the

530
00:25:55,550 --> 00:26:00,090
Speaker 2: bad relationships that I chose. Because, you know, I wasn't

531
00:26:01,010 --> 00:26:03,780
Speaker 2: doing that job and having a relationship doesn't work either.

532
00:26:03,820 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

533
00:26:04,980 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 2: Who wants their girlfriend to be looked at every day

534
00:26:08,380 --> 00:26:11,290
Speaker 2: by the men when they're naked, right? Fair enough. Even

535
00:26:11,330 --> 00:26:13,370
Speaker 2: if there is nothing else happening, I don't think that's

536
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:16,430
Speaker 2: fair either to expect that from somebody. But I choose

537
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:21,010
Speaker 2: really damaged relationships anyway. If I didn't have that money

538
00:26:21,130 --> 00:26:24,470
Speaker 2: that I earned from dancing, I would have been stuck there.

539
00:26:24,869 --> 00:26:28,580
Speaker 1: Okay. So empowered in that it's your choice. No one

540
00:26:28,660 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: is forcing you to do it. And it gives you

541
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,540
Speaker 1: the independence to make life choices and live life on

542
00:26:35,580 --> 00:26:37,659
Speaker 1: your terms. I suppose that's the way of putting it.

543
00:26:38,180 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: So you didn't, and we just touched on it briefly,

544
00:26:40,740 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: you didn't find yourself in any difficult situations, like occupational

545
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,740
Speaker 1: health and safety is not big. in that environment.

546
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,900
Speaker 2: I did slip over on stage a couple of times.

547
00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 2: Maybe was a bit drunk or, yeah, a bit high,

548
00:26:55,660 --> 00:26:57,460
Speaker 2: who knows. But, yeah, a bit wet on the floor

549
00:26:57,500 --> 00:27:00,420
Speaker 2: when you've been doing like a bath show or something. So, yeah,

550
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,340
Speaker 2: stuff like that happened. But I never– I know that

551
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,460
Speaker 2: there were some women that found themselves in some really

552
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:07,780
Speaker 2: horrible situations and I'm not saying that it was a

553
00:27:07,820 --> 00:27:11,179
Speaker 2: safe profession at all. But like I said, for me

554
00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:13,780
Speaker 2: in general in life, I have thought about consequences differently

555
00:27:14,619 --> 00:27:15,540
Speaker 2: Not until they happened.

556
00:27:15,859 --> 00:27:16,139
Speaker 1: Yeah.

557
00:27:16,180 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 2: So for me, it wasn't about that. And I always

558
00:27:18,220 --> 00:27:20,340
Speaker 2: felt safe. And when I didn't, I'd leave.

559
00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:23,950
Speaker 1: Right, right. I would imagine some of the gigs would

560
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:27,170
Speaker 1: be bikey clubhouses, that type of thing, or end of

561
00:27:27,210 --> 00:27:29,950
Speaker 1: year football, Bucks nights.

562
00:27:30,130 --> 00:27:33,070
Speaker 2: Actually, the bikey clubhouses were the safest place to go.

563
00:27:33,090 --> 00:27:33,990
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting.

564
00:27:34,130 --> 00:27:37,850
Speaker 2: Yes, because you were looked after. And you were a

565
00:27:38,430 --> 00:27:41,530
Speaker 2: house guest and you performed and they made sure that

566
00:27:41,630 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: all their patrons and whatever respected you and treated you

567
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,580
Speaker 2: well and didn't. And they always encouraged you to stay

568
00:27:47,619 --> 00:27:49,700
Speaker 2: back and have a drink and they would just, you know,

569
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 2: you were just really looked after. I've got to be

570
00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 2: really honest about it, yeah.

571
00:27:53,140 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: Okay. No, that's, again, an interesting take on it. And

572
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying 100% because if someone misbehaved,

573
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:02,980
Speaker 1: they'd get dropped on the spot. Yeah.

574
00:28:03,790 --> 00:28:06,409
Speaker 2: And this is my experience, right? I can't speak for

575
00:28:06,450 --> 00:28:09,670
Speaker 2: anybody else's experiences. And I know some of my girlfriends

576
00:28:09,850 --> 00:28:14,230
Speaker 2: had totally different experiences and some of them, you know,

577
00:28:15,270 --> 00:28:18,350
Speaker 2: were sexually assaulted at different places. I'm not saying by clubs,

578
00:28:18,410 --> 00:28:21,590
Speaker 2: I'm saying just at shows and things happened to them

579
00:28:21,650 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: that were really horrific. And I'm, you know, I, again,

580
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: I feel really blessed around my life that The choices

581
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,580
Speaker 2: that I made and some of the situations, probably something

582
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,060
Speaker 2: should have happened because it wasn't safe that I put

583
00:28:34,100 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: myself in, but it didn't. So I'm really, really, yeah,

584
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: I look back and go, I'm grateful.

585
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:45,010
Speaker 1: Well, it's, yeah, different environments. And when you mix alcohol and, yeah,

586
00:28:45,130 --> 00:28:47,730
Speaker 1: a group of idiot blokes together, I would imagine the

587
00:28:47,770 --> 00:28:51,470
Speaker 1: suburban bucks parties would be a greater risk or even, yeah,

588
00:28:51,530 --> 00:28:54,410
Speaker 1: the entitled party. Accountants from the big end of the

589
00:28:54,450 --> 00:28:58,450
Speaker 1: city were throwing money around. I would imagine that causes problems.

590
00:28:58,910 --> 00:29:01,450
Speaker 2: And, you know, when I sit here now and I

591
00:29:01,490 --> 00:29:05,090
Speaker 2: look at that girl and the profit I got from

592
00:29:05,710 --> 00:29:09,330
Speaker 2: that kind of space and some of the behaviours that

593
00:29:09,370 --> 00:29:13,860
Speaker 2: were presented by males there. Yeah. I'd find them unacceptable

594
00:29:13,900 --> 00:29:16,100
Speaker 2: today in any way, shape or form. Some of the

595
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,380
Speaker 2: things that I found acceptable that were said to me

596
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 2: from blokes or other girls or whatever it was, today

597
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,130
Speaker 2: that stuff matters to me.

598
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:25,510
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

599
00:29:25,870 --> 00:29:29,790
Speaker 2: You know, so I think it's all about where you're at.

600
00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:33,070
Speaker 1: Because you've changed or society's changed or a combination of both.

601
00:29:33,090 --> 00:29:34,330
Speaker 2: No, because I have changed.

602
00:29:34,350 --> 00:29:34,730
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

603
00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:41,570
Speaker 2: Because before I was friends with men that bashed their girlfriends, right? Yeah, yeah.

604
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:46,130
Speaker 2: I was friends with men that. you know, probably spoke

605
00:29:46,210 --> 00:29:48,290
Speaker 2: to me in a way that was inappropriate.

606
00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:48,390
Speaker 1: Yeah.

607
00:29:48,730 --> 00:29:50,990
Speaker 2: But there was other parts of them that I loved.

608
00:29:51,230 --> 00:29:51,430
Speaker 1: Yeah.

609
00:29:51,470 --> 00:29:52,830
Speaker 2: Today I wouldn't accept that.

610
00:29:53,010 --> 00:29:53,170
Speaker 1: Yeah.

611
00:29:53,310 --> 00:29:55,830
Speaker 2: And it was the same, and today I also wouldn't

612
00:29:55,870 --> 00:29:59,110
Speaker 2: accept to be in a relationship where someone would verbally

613
00:29:59,250 --> 00:30:02,230
Speaker 2: or physically try and abuse me. That would be, you know,

614
00:30:02,790 --> 00:30:05,930
Speaker 2: even before I got there, those red flags, I'd notice them.

615
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,500
Speaker 2: But back then, I guess things were a little bit different,

616
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: but I don't think from a being safe and a

617
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:19,540
Speaker 2: woman's perspective, that it's ever been okay for men or

618
00:30:19,740 --> 00:30:23,140
Speaker 2: women as well who execute that power that they have

619
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: over somebody else.

620
00:30:24,300 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: Well, you're talking in that line of work too, the

621
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: disrespect that could be thrown. And, yeah, I don't think

622
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,910
Speaker 1: anyone or anyone that I respect would feel comfortable with

623
00:30:35,090 --> 00:30:38,650
Speaker 1: regardless of the work. Yeah, you still need to treat

624
00:30:38,670 --> 00:30:42,570
Speaker 1: people with respect. Absolutely. Yeah. you're performing, you're doing this

625
00:30:42,650 --> 00:30:45,290
Speaker 1: and that, but there is a line that should be, uh,

626
00:30:45,410 --> 00:30:49,230
Speaker 1: should always be there. Society's changed a little bit too now.

627
00:30:49,290 --> 00:30:52,110
Speaker 1: Like I, yeah, it was nothing to walk into a

628
00:30:52,150 --> 00:30:54,780
Speaker 1: pub and the, you know, Thursday afternoon, topless bar mates

629
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,460
Speaker 1: and that, you know, just a local, local hotel. And that,

630
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: that was the, uh, and you didn't bat an eyelid.

631
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:03,860
Speaker 2: No, it was just normal and it was okay. And

632
00:31:03,900 --> 00:31:09,340
Speaker 2: I guess, you know, um, I remember like kind of

633
00:31:09,420 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: finished up dancing around the time that mobile phones came into.

634
00:31:13,140 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would have changed.

635
00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:16,940
Speaker 2: So mobile phones changed everything. So next minute.

636
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: I hadn't thought of that.

637
00:31:17,620 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: Before it was just cameras, right? So then they had

638
00:31:19,580 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 2: to go and get developed and you'd end up in

639
00:31:21,140 --> 00:31:22,620
Speaker 2: someone's box party photos.

640
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:23,410
Speaker 1: Who cares?

641
00:31:23,430 --> 00:31:27,030
Speaker 2: Yeah. But next minute, the girls were having to combat

642
00:31:27,070 --> 00:31:28,690
Speaker 2: being all over social media.

643
00:31:28,990 --> 00:31:29,170
Speaker 1: Yes.

644
00:31:29,190 --> 00:31:32,430
Speaker 2: Right? In positions you don't really, like if you're doing

645
00:31:32,490 --> 00:31:35,910
Speaker 2: a little twirl and then doing a leg spread, it's okay.

646
00:31:35,950 --> 00:31:36,110
Speaker 1: Yeah.

647
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:39,890
Speaker 2: Having that forever on somebody's social media and then the

648
00:31:39,930 --> 00:31:43,330
Speaker 2: comments that come from that, I think it changed everything.

649
00:31:43,370 --> 00:31:48,230
Speaker 2: But it also, I think the whole online, being able

650
00:31:48,270 --> 00:31:51,290
Speaker 2: to do online striptease and all of that just changed

651
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:54,730
Speaker 2: and took that out of parts. And equality as well,

652
00:31:54,830 --> 00:31:56,790
Speaker 2: I guess, in a way. Like women don't want to

653
00:31:56,810 --> 00:31:58,710
Speaker 2: walk into a pub and see a girl walking around

654
00:31:58,730 --> 00:31:59,430
Speaker 2: with her tits out.

655
00:31:59,730 --> 00:32:00,230
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

656
00:32:00,410 --> 00:32:02,490
Speaker 2: So that kind of, yeah, it's a bit of both.

657
00:32:02,830 --> 00:32:06,010
Speaker 1: Okay, so I hadn't even thought from the mobile phones,

658
00:32:06,050 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: but yeah, that would have changed it completely.

659
00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:13,070
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that throughout all my teenage and 20s,

660
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: there was.

661
00:32:13,460 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: No mobile phones. We'd all be stuffed, wouldn't we?

662
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,650
Speaker 2: I'd be absolutely stuffed. I would have gone to jail

663
00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:19,870
Speaker 2: a lot earlier, I reckon.

664
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: Okay. So how long were you stripping?

665
00:32:26,620 --> 00:32:27,620
Speaker 2: I did about 10 years.

666
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,170
Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay. So that was a long career and you

667
00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:33,090
Speaker 1: made money out of it?

668
00:32:33,130 --> 00:32:35,710
Speaker 2: I did. I spent it all. Don't get me wrong. Okay.

669
00:32:35,990 --> 00:32:39,470
Speaker 2: I never really, back in the past, never really believed

670
00:32:39,550 --> 00:32:43,350
Speaker 2: in tomorrow. Yeah. It was always today and that's it. Yeah.

671
00:32:43,790 --> 00:32:45,230
Speaker 2: And I think there was a part of me also

672
00:32:45,270 --> 00:32:48,410
Speaker 2: that didn't really want tomorrow, like always that little girl.

673
00:32:48,430 --> 00:32:48,510
Speaker 1: Yeah.

674
00:32:49,580 --> 00:32:51,780
Speaker 2: Not that I wanted to end my life or anything

675
00:32:51,820 --> 00:32:52,260
Speaker 2: like that.

676
00:32:52,300 --> 00:32:55,140
Speaker 1: No, but there was a recklessness in the way that

677
00:32:55,300 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: you went about things.

678
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And if it was wrong or somebody in

679
00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:04,420
Speaker 2: society went, we don't like that, I'd go, oh, I

680
00:33:04,460 --> 00:33:09,100
Speaker 2: like that. So it was that rebel that continued to happen.

681
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,380
Speaker 2: And then I kind of just fell into when you're

682
00:33:11,420 --> 00:33:14,550
Speaker 2: living in that space, they're the people that you're around

683
00:33:14,590 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 2: all the time. So you're not really exposed to– other people.

684
00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 2: So that becomes normal, right?

685
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,860
Speaker 1: You make a good point there because it's the environment

686
00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:27,220
Speaker 1: that you're hanging out in. If they're not judging you, well,

687
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,110
Speaker 1: these are my friends. And so I did that. Well,

688
00:33:29,470 --> 00:33:30,270
Speaker 1: no one bats an eyelid.

689
00:33:30,290 --> 00:33:33,870
Speaker 2: It didn't matter, right? Because everybody was kind of, all

690
00:33:33,910 --> 00:33:35,950
Speaker 2: of us girls were in that industry and the ones

691
00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:37,910
Speaker 2: that didn't, they didn't judge us. We would go out

692
00:33:37,950 --> 00:33:41,470
Speaker 2: clubbing together. The red carpet got rolled out. You were

693
00:33:41,770 --> 00:33:44,260
Speaker 2: a bit of a superstar back then. And we were

694
00:33:44,420 --> 00:33:47,060
Speaker 2: and we had– it was great, you know.

695
00:33:47,740 --> 00:33:51,940
Speaker 1: I can see the fun that you would have had then.

696
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:55,180
Speaker 1: When did drugs start to become a bigger part in

697
00:33:55,220 --> 00:33:57,660
Speaker 1: your life? Did you ever get to the point with

698
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,290
Speaker 1: dependency on it? And I know that can be a

699
00:34:01,370 --> 00:34:01,990
Speaker 1: slow creep.

700
00:34:02,330 --> 00:34:05,970
Speaker 2: Not until really much, much later in life. Throughout all

701
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:09,609
Speaker 2: of that, I think I always– so I've always had

702
00:34:09,650 --> 00:34:11,810
Speaker 2: this thing that I do when things got hard, I'd run.

703
00:34:12,770 --> 00:34:14,390
Speaker 2: So I'd just pack up and go somewhere else.

704
00:34:14,850 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

705
00:34:16,390 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 2: I'd go, oh, I didn't like that or that was

706
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: a bit. So I'd either go back to Switzerland or

707
00:34:20,620 --> 00:34:22,419
Speaker 2: I'd move state, one or the other.

708
00:34:22,860 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 1: Just on that, and I want to continue the story, but.

709
00:34:26,489 --> 00:34:29,290
Speaker 1: Do you identify as Australian or you look at the

710
00:34:29,330 --> 00:34:30,810
Speaker 1: world as your home?

711
00:34:31,170 --> 00:34:34,370
Speaker 2: I'm a child of the world, but I love Australia.

712
00:34:34,410 --> 00:34:35,910
Speaker 2: I've always come back to Australia.

713
00:34:35,930 --> 00:34:37,669
Speaker 1: You feel your roots are here in Australia.

714
00:34:37,690 --> 00:34:41,290
Speaker 2: I mean, if we're going from a passport point of view,

715
00:34:41,310 --> 00:34:43,330
Speaker 2: I've got a Swiss and an Australian passport, so I'm

716
00:34:43,370 --> 00:34:47,230
Speaker 2: half Swiss, half Australian, really. But I feel like the

717
00:34:47,250 --> 00:34:51,370
Speaker 2: world is my home. I don't see we're all human

718
00:34:51,410 --> 00:34:53,569
Speaker 2: beings on this planet. We may look a little bit

719
00:34:53,650 --> 00:34:56,420
Speaker 2: different or live in a different area, but Well, that's.

720
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: A good byproduct of your upbringing, I would suggest. I

721
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,060
Speaker 1: think so. It's a good attitude. It took me a

722
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:06,750
Speaker 1: while to get there, though. You were talking about running away. Oh, yes.

723
00:35:06,930 --> 00:35:10,290
Speaker 2: So things would get difficult and I'd just move. And

724
00:35:10,350 --> 00:35:12,890
Speaker 2: I think when things got a little bit messy and

725
00:35:13,110 --> 00:35:16,830
Speaker 2: I was maybe partying a bit too much, and then

726
00:35:17,310 --> 00:35:19,420
Speaker 2: what happens when you party too much is things get

727
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,109
Speaker 2: out of– they're just not– reality's not right anymore, right?

728
00:35:24,190 --> 00:35:26,270
Speaker 2: So things are out of context and you hang out

729
00:35:26,310 --> 00:35:31,390
Speaker 2: with people that are either traumatised, partying too hard, not

730
00:35:31,410 --> 00:35:33,549
Speaker 2: looking after themselves, all that kind of stuff, and things

731
00:35:33,610 --> 00:35:36,740
Speaker 2: get a bit pear-shaped. So I'd usually just pack up

732
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,100
Speaker 2: and I'd go, I'm not doing well right now, or

733
00:35:40,180 --> 00:35:42,380
Speaker 2: I'd go and see Corrie or my sister.

734
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: They were your stable base.

735
00:35:43,980 --> 00:35:46,299
Speaker 2: They were my stable base or my grandparents. I'd go

736
00:35:46,340 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 2: to Queensland and my mum's youngest brother lived with my

737
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,589
Speaker 2: grandparents for a really long time. And he would, you know,

738
00:35:53,630 --> 00:35:58,730
Speaker 2: he'd go, Tashi, you know, pull it up. Or, are

739
00:35:58,750 --> 00:36:01,290
Speaker 2: you okay? That was usually what would set me off.

740
00:36:01,390 --> 00:36:04,090
Speaker 2: If somebody went, are you okay? And I'd go, if

741
00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:05,790
Speaker 2: they're asking me, I'm probably not.

742
00:36:06,670 --> 00:36:08,469
Speaker 1: That's very insightful.

743
00:36:09,489 --> 00:36:12,590
Speaker 2: Insight has never been a problem. It's been denial around,

744
00:36:13,570 --> 00:36:17,570
Speaker 2: you know, looking outside of yourself and for what is wrong,

745
00:36:17,850 --> 00:36:23,310
Speaker 2: the people, the drugs, the environment, the job you're doing,

746
00:36:23,630 --> 00:36:27,310
Speaker 2: whatever it is. And we like to do that, right?

747
00:36:27,370 --> 00:36:30,290
Speaker 2: But the only or the relationship that you don't have

748
00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:34,049
Speaker 2: or the bad relationships that you keep choosing and we

749
00:36:34,270 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: look there for the solution to whatever is missing inside

750
00:36:38,180 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: and that's just not where it is. And it's almost

751
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,620
Speaker 2: like you– When you move so many times as I

752
00:36:45,660 --> 00:36:48,410
Speaker 2: do and have that many different environments, you wear different

753
00:36:48,450 --> 00:36:51,390
Speaker 2: masks and you get so lost in all of them.

754
00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:55,370
Speaker 1: There's a freedom that if you do keep moving, like

755
00:36:55,410 --> 00:36:57,730
Speaker 1: some people grow up in one area and that's their

756
00:36:57,770 --> 00:37:00,780
Speaker 1: life and they can't reinvent themselves because everyone knows who

757
00:37:00,820 --> 00:37:03,540
Speaker 1: they are. But if you do move around a lot,

758
00:37:03,940 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: you can reinvent yourself. Absolutely. You can come in as

759
00:37:07,620 --> 00:37:08,220
Speaker 1: a different person.

760
00:37:08,260 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: You can and you can assimilate to the people that

761
00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:13,340
Speaker 2: you're hanging around. Yeah. But when you run away …

762
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,009
Speaker 2: You go with you, right? So it only lasts for

763
00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:18,029
Speaker 2: a short period of time.

764
00:37:18,050 --> 00:37:20,189
Speaker 1: And then you show your real self.

765
00:37:20,350 --> 00:37:22,350
Speaker 2: Yeah, or it's not even showing your real self. It's

766
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:25,469
Speaker 2: people get close. And that was always an issue for

767
00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:29,050
Speaker 2: me when people got too close to I'd run because

768
00:37:29,070 --> 00:37:32,070
Speaker 2: I was fearful of losing them. It makes no sense.

769
00:37:32,410 --> 00:37:36,049
Speaker 1: Well, I'm not a psychologist, but I think losing your

770
00:37:36,090 --> 00:37:39,390
Speaker 1: mother in the circumstances, you described that sense of abandonment

771
00:37:39,510 --> 00:37:42,339
Speaker 1: might play a part in it. Absolutely, it did. That

772
00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:44,220
Speaker 1: I don't want to love too much because I might

773
00:37:44,260 --> 00:37:44,540
Speaker 1: lose it.

774
00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it did. And I was really opinionated around things

775
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: like that. From a very young age, I'd go, well,

776
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,500
Speaker 2: I'm never going to have children because what if something

777
00:37:52,540 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 2: happens to me and they end up like me? I'm

778
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,350
Speaker 2: never going to. love somebody completely or stay with them

779
00:37:58,410 --> 00:37:59,790
Speaker 2: because what if they leave me?

780
00:37:59,850 --> 00:38:00,049
Speaker 1: Right.

781
00:38:00,070 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 2: There was those, I taught myself that stuff. They didn't

782
00:38:03,410 --> 00:38:06,490
Speaker 2: come from outside of me. And then I'd forgotten about it.

783
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,859
Speaker 2: But the girl that was trying to belong somewhere was

784
00:38:11,020 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: always then acting when things got difficult from that space,

785
00:38:16,180 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 2: from that fear. So yeah.

786
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 1: I'm out of here. Yeah.

787
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,860
Speaker 2: I'm out of here. And so my My drug use

788
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 2: would then stop, right? So I'd go wherever I went

789
00:38:25,219 --> 00:38:27,610
Speaker 2: and wherever I was going, I'd stop for a while.

790
00:38:27,790 --> 00:38:30,110
Speaker 2: I'd kind of, you know, get my shit together and

791
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:32,469
Speaker 2: I'd find another job or do whatever it is that

792
00:38:32,510 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: I was doing. So no, drugs didn't become that massive,

793
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,660
Speaker 2: have that massive impact, not until much later.

794
00:38:41,090 --> 00:38:43,950
Speaker 1: Okay, and if you were working as a stripper for

795
00:38:43,950 --> 00:38:47,020
Speaker 1: 10 years, drugs would have been readily available if you

796
00:38:47,060 --> 00:38:49,940
Speaker 1: needed it. So it wasn't sort of you struggled to

797
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:50,219
Speaker 1: get it.

798
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 2: And I always had them around me. It was the

799
00:38:52,340 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 2: people that I chose to be around. And not even consciously,

800
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: it was almost like this is okay. They know what

801
00:38:58,780 --> 00:39:00,740
Speaker 2: they're doing. That's where I'll be friends.

802
00:39:00,860 --> 00:39:05,810
Speaker 1: I see people when I talk to people who had

803
00:39:06,210 --> 00:39:09,630
Speaker 1: real impact on their addiction to drugs and all that,

804
00:39:10,700 --> 00:39:13,140
Speaker 1: It appears to be at some point in time you

805
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 1: think you got it in control, got it in control,

806
00:39:15,739 --> 00:39:18,540
Speaker 1: I can step away. But then it dawns on you

807
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,430
Speaker 1: or the realization that it's got me. I'm an addict.

808
00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:23,770
Speaker 1: Did you get to that point?

809
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:28,270
Speaker 2: Not an addict. It was a choice to just take

810
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:32,969
Speaker 2: drugs and give up on everything else. And this is

811
00:39:33,070 --> 00:39:34,670
Speaker 2: one of the times where I have to give myself

812
00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:37,050
Speaker 2: a lot of grace and go, what were you thinking?

813
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:37,950
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right?

814
00:39:38,110 --> 00:39:39,939
Speaker 2: And I was in my 40s when I did that.

815
00:39:40,540 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 2: And I was mentally really unwell. I had ideas about

816
00:39:47,780 --> 00:39:49,280
Speaker 2: why my life was so broken.

817
00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:49,380
Speaker 1: Yeah.

818
00:39:49,770 --> 00:39:52,049
Speaker 2: Was all outside of me and I was taking no

819
00:39:52,090 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 2: responsibility whatsoever. And so then I went, okay, well, I'm

820
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 2: really good at taking drugs and I'm really good at

821
00:39:57,620 --> 00:40:01,500
Speaker 2: selling drugs and doing all of that stuff that goes

822
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:02,939
Speaker 2: with it. So that's what I'm going to do.

823
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: When did you– you worked as an airline steward as well. Yeah,

824
00:40:07,780 --> 00:40:09,350
Speaker 1: I did. When did that fit into?

825
00:40:09,370 --> 00:40:14,670
Speaker 2: Okay, so 10 years dancing, ended up in Darwin, had

826
00:40:15,090 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 2: a little personal training business, bought a unit. had settled

827
00:40:18,340 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 2: in up there, living a good life and loved it

828
00:40:22,180 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: up there.

829
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,780
Speaker 1: Darwin's a great place. It was so cool.

830
00:40:25,020 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 2: The first time I went to Darwin was 1999 and

831
00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: it was just wild and it just filled my little

832
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 2: heart with so much joy and I've still got lifelong

833
00:40:34,420 --> 00:40:37,900
Speaker 2: friends that live there. Darwin was safe for me. I

834
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,469
Speaker 2: could be as crazy as I wanted to be.

835
00:40:41,489 --> 00:40:42,739
Speaker 1: No one would notice in Darwin.

836
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:45,390
Speaker 2: No, but they'd also look after me. I knew everybody

837
00:40:45,410 --> 00:40:47,390
Speaker 2: there and the clubs and all that and the bouncers

838
00:40:47,469 --> 00:40:50,230
Speaker 2: and that hole and the Hells Angels and all of

839
00:40:50,290 --> 00:40:53,580
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. So that town became my playground,

840
00:40:53,620 --> 00:40:58,900
Speaker 2: which was in ways it just increased my bad behaviour.

841
00:40:58,920 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

842
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,700
Speaker 2: But I then also turned my life around and went, okay,

843
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 2: I'm going to stop this. I'm going to stop dancing.

844
00:41:04,860 --> 00:41:08,110
Speaker 2: I'm going to stop engaging in all of this and

845
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,009
Speaker 2: I'm going to go and do something different. So I

846
00:41:10,030 --> 00:41:14,529
Speaker 2: set up a personal training business. I've always trained all

847
00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:18,110
Speaker 2: my life, so for me, That kind of worked really well.

848
00:41:19,070 --> 00:41:23,670
Speaker 2: And then bought a unit and settled in and then went, oh,

849
00:41:23,690 --> 00:41:27,690
Speaker 2: my God, I can't sustain my lifestyle with just this

850
00:41:27,730 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 2: business and the unit and all that kind of stuff.

851
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 2: So I went, I'm just going to apply for Jetstar.

852
00:41:31,940 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 2: So they moved up there. So I went through the

853
00:41:35,060 --> 00:41:40,250
Speaker 2: application process, was successful. I had earlier on in life

854
00:41:40,670 --> 00:41:41,590
Speaker 2: tried Qantas.

855
00:41:41,790 --> 00:41:41,969
Speaker 1: Yeah.

856
00:41:42,030 --> 00:41:43,650
Speaker 2: But I had no idea what I was doing and

857
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: it wasn't successful. So it had always been something that

858
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:46,770
Speaker 2: I wanted to do.

859
00:41:46,780 --> 00:41:47,780
Speaker 1: In the back of your mind. Yeah.

860
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 2: Loved travelling. So I ended up cabin crew for 12 months,

861
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:57,509
Speaker 2: then cabin manager. And then things in Darwin got really

862
00:41:57,950 --> 00:42:01,150
Speaker 2: toxic for me with my ex and things were just messy.

863
00:42:01,690 --> 00:42:05,820
Speaker 2: And I was being really self-destructive and it wasn't– Didn't

864
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,779
Speaker 2: like it and I could see the behaviour. So I

865
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,940
Speaker 2: was like, okay, what can I do? And a position

866
00:42:09,980 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 2: on the Gold Coast with Jets I came up. So

867
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:13,140
Speaker 2: I transferred.

868
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:14,100
Speaker 1: Yeah.

869
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,180
Speaker 2: Applied for it, got the position as a cabin crew

870
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:21,029
Speaker 2: manager and transferred. Moved in with my grandparents or my

871
00:42:21,070 --> 00:42:24,310
Speaker 2: grandmother at this point. Pop had passed and my uncle

872
00:42:24,969 --> 00:42:28,890
Speaker 2: and did really well for about 12 months and then

873
00:42:28,969 --> 00:42:31,190
Speaker 2: moved in with an old dancing buddy.

874
00:42:31,210 --> 00:42:31,370
Speaker 1: Yeah.

875
00:42:31,860 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 2: And things just spiralled. She had parties all the time,

876
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,500
Speaker 2: so I was just partying all the time.

877
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: No, I shouldn't laugh. I'm just trying to process it. Okay, Darwin.

878
00:42:40,700 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: I can imagine the lifestyle up there and it is

879
00:42:44,020 --> 00:42:46,899
Speaker 1: the Wild West up there. I love it. It's just

880
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: got a good vibe.

881
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:48,460
Speaker 2: It does.

882
00:42:48,660 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: But I can imagine getting out of control. You come down.

883
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: You're working Jetstar, so you've got a regular job. You're

884
00:42:56,460 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: trying to settle down. move back with your grandmother. Like

885
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,940
Speaker 1: if anyone's going to keep you on track, it's your grandmother.

886
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:03,739
Speaker 2: Not at all.

887
00:43:04,540 --> 00:43:08,060
Speaker 1: And then your friend turned up and, oh, I would

888
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,580
Speaker 1: have never seen that going bad again. No, not at all.

889
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,930
Speaker 1: With the men in your life, the bad boys, and

890
00:43:13,989 --> 00:43:16,110
Speaker 1: I ask this of a lot of people who have

891
00:43:16,130 --> 00:43:19,230
Speaker 1: been in your position and live the lifestyle and the

892
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:21,709
Speaker 1: attraction to the bad boys. And I've had people sit here,

893
00:43:21,969 --> 00:43:25,410
Speaker 1: not this similar background to yourself, and go, it didn't

894
00:43:25,450 --> 00:43:28,130
Speaker 1: work out. And I sit here going, Oh, that's a surprise.

895
00:43:28,610 --> 00:43:31,270
Speaker 2: Well, for me, it's not a surprise looking back. And

896
00:43:31,410 --> 00:43:35,150
Speaker 2: even at the time, I didn't know what a relationship

897
00:43:35,650 --> 00:43:38,489
Speaker 2: even was meant to look like. I had no– the

898
00:43:38,630 --> 00:43:40,890
Speaker 2: only model that I had of it was my grandparents

899
00:43:41,250 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 2: who were together all their life and loved each other

900
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,750
Speaker 2: and were friends and, you know, had– created a beautiful

901
00:43:47,790 --> 00:43:51,010
Speaker 2: life together. But that didn't just happen through magic, right?

902
00:43:51,070 --> 00:43:53,969
Speaker 2: But in my mind it did. Like I was a

903
00:43:54,050 --> 00:43:58,090
Speaker 2: fairy tale child, right? I read books about fairy tales

904
00:43:58,170 --> 00:44:01,419
Speaker 2: and about, you know, love stories and all that kind

905
00:44:01,460 --> 00:44:03,620
Speaker 2: of stuff. And somewhere inside of me that's what I

906
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:08,300
Speaker 2: thought was just going to happen one day. So going

907
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 2: into relations, I couldn't communicate at all. The words that

908
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,569
Speaker 2: I use today and the communication style that I have,

909
00:44:15,590 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 2: I had to learn that. I was always good at

910
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: communicating with people outside of, but when it came to

911
00:44:20,739 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 2: emotions and vulnerability, I was a closed book. So going

912
00:44:24,540 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 2: into a relationship with me was like I have to

913
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,580
Speaker 2: guess what Natasha's thinking and feeling today because she's not

914
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 2: going to tell me, but then she's going to throw

915
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,859
Speaker 2: a tantrum over there because I haven't guessed right. So,

916
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:37,190
Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't even just the bad boys. It

917
00:44:37,230 --> 00:44:41,790
Speaker 2: was literally I was not capable of showing up in

918
00:44:41,870 --> 00:44:42,549
Speaker 2: a relationship.

919
00:44:42,590 --> 00:44:45,850
Speaker 1: That's an enormous assessment of what was going wrong.

920
00:44:46,860 --> 00:44:49,190
Speaker 2: And like some of the men that I chose were

921
00:44:49,210 --> 00:44:53,549
Speaker 2: really inappropriate. I don't think I kind of was more

922
00:44:53,590 --> 00:44:56,230
Speaker 2: friends with those really bad boys. They were my mates.

923
00:44:56,530 --> 00:44:56,690
Speaker 1: Yeah.

924
00:44:56,910 --> 00:44:59,730
Speaker 2: And some, you know, the way that they treated their

925
00:44:59,770 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 2: missus was not always appropriate. And like I said today,

926
00:45:03,060 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 2: I wouldn't stand by and be friends with them. But

927
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,940
Speaker 2: because they were my mates back then, that's who I supported, right?

928
00:45:08,980 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 2: I was the one that told the missus, oh, he's

929
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,940
Speaker 2: just whatever. Yeah. And I'm not proud of that at all.

930
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,020
Speaker 2: I think that's really inappropriate.

931
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

932
00:45:16,610 --> 00:45:21,710
Speaker 2: Of allowing people to create bad behaviour just because it's

933
00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:24,170
Speaker 2: not your relationship that you're not saying, you know.

934
00:45:24,190 --> 00:45:28,230
Speaker 1: Well, I've been talking about that a lot lately with

935
00:45:28,290 --> 00:45:30,589
Speaker 1: all the domestic violence and that, and I think we're

936
00:45:30,690 --> 00:45:33,469
Speaker 1: all guilty of just sort of turning a blind eye

937
00:45:33,489 --> 00:45:36,730
Speaker 1: to it and not standing up and pulling someone and, hey, mate,

938
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,990
Speaker 1: that's not on, that type of thing. And I'd like

939
00:45:41,010 --> 00:45:44,380
Speaker 1: to think society's sort of become more aware of it

940
00:45:44,420 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: that we all play a part.

941
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,700
Speaker 2: I hope so because to me, and this is no excuse,

942
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: but back then I didn't even know what domestic violence meant.

943
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,259
Speaker 2: I'd never heard that word before. It didn't sit in,

944
00:45:56,380 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 2: you know, someone just got a bit handy or, you know,

945
00:45:59,060 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 2: he just went, I just, you know, slapped her out

946
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 2: of the way or something like that. And you just go,

947
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 2: it's men being men, right? That horrible stuff that we

948
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,739
Speaker 2: hide behind or have for so long. Now I have

949
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,700
Speaker 2: words around it and even some of my relationships that

950
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,469
Speaker 2: were It was full on.

951
00:46:16,510 --> 00:46:16,670
Speaker 1: Yeah.

952
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:20,669
Speaker 2: And it was not okay. But I took responsibility for that,

953
00:46:20,790 --> 00:46:25,489
Speaker 2: full responsibility, which is not okay either because– Yeah, well, there's.

954
00:46:25,030 --> 00:46:28,930
Speaker 1: A lot of– yeah, and I'm just talking the relationships

955
00:46:28,950 --> 00:46:31,509
Speaker 1: with the females. Oh, I shouldn't have upset him. Yeah,

956
00:46:31,610 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: I know he gets cranky when he drinks. And I

957
00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:37,460
Speaker 1: cringe when I hear that, but that was almost– yeah,

958
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,020
Speaker 1: that was the way people dealt with domestic violence.

959
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:41,300
Speaker 2: Yeah, and still do.

960
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:41,460
Speaker 1: Yeah.

961
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 2: Because they don't know any different. And when you've been

962
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,380
Speaker 2: in it for so long, it becomes normal.

963
00:46:47,739 --> 00:46:47,919
Speaker 1: Yeah.

964
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,180
Speaker 2: Right? And that thing, oh, why doesn't she just leave?

965
00:46:51,940 --> 00:46:54,219
Speaker 2: That just, that really pisses me off.

966
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: I think we're becoming more aware of the difficulties. And

967
00:46:58,219 --> 00:47:01,210
Speaker 1: I think we'll be talking about that in more detail

968
00:47:01,250 --> 00:47:04,430
Speaker 1: in part two of the advocacy work that you're doing

969
00:47:04,830 --> 00:47:08,110
Speaker 1: and women in prison. But we're going to get you

970
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:12,390
Speaker 1: in the prison. Yeah. I'm sorry, but this is true crime.

971
00:47:12,430 --> 00:47:14,510
Speaker 1: We're going to get you in the prison.

972
00:47:14,690 --> 00:47:15,230
Speaker 2: We're almost there.

973
00:47:16,469 --> 00:47:21,590
Speaker 1: When, yeah, with the drug dealing and that, and I

974
00:47:21,650 --> 00:47:24,010
Speaker 1: spoke to the other day and you said you look

975
00:47:24,050 --> 00:47:26,379
Speaker 1: back at it and, yeah, you're not proud of that

976
00:47:26,940 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: chapter in your life.

977
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,770
Speaker 2: Look, it's always been there. I didn't just. Suddenly wake

978
00:47:32,830 --> 00:47:34,230
Speaker 2: up one day and go, I'm going to date a

979
00:47:34,270 --> 00:47:38,589
Speaker 2: drug dealer, right, after getting clean and not using drugs anymore.

980
00:47:39,710 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: Sorry, that's something I picked up too. The person that

981
00:47:43,060 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: you were locked up with, with the drug dealing, you

982
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:47,859
Speaker 1: two met in the rehab. Yeah.

983
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 2: Well, not in rehab, in NA.

984
00:47:49,260 --> 00:47:49,870
Speaker 1: Oh, right. Okay.

985
00:47:49,890 --> 00:47:50,989
Speaker 2: Not quite synonymous, yeah.

986
00:47:51,010 --> 00:47:51,090
Speaker 1: Yeah.

987
00:47:51,810 --> 00:47:53,969
Speaker 2: So we both weren't using it at the time, which

988
00:47:54,370 --> 00:47:56,730
Speaker 2: kind of in a way I kind of go that's

989
00:47:56,750 --> 00:48:00,130
Speaker 2: just ludicrous, all of it, but that it was a business.

990
00:48:00,150 --> 00:48:02,410
Speaker 2: It was an enterprise, right? It was about making money.

991
00:48:02,430 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you would have, by that stage, seen the

992
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,259
Speaker 1: damage that drugs can do and all that. Were you

993
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,450
Speaker 1: oblivious to the cause and effect when you were making

994
00:48:11,489 --> 00:48:14,290
Speaker 1: money from it? No. Okay. No.

995
00:48:14,290 --> 00:48:17,470
Speaker 2: So before hand, yes, always.

996
00:48:17,590 --> 00:48:17,770
Speaker 1: Yeah.

997
00:48:17,950 --> 00:48:21,340
Speaker 2: And probably didn't care because everybody I knew was taking drugs.

998
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:21,980
Speaker 1: Okay. Right?

999
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:27,340
Speaker 2: So it just becomes normal. And I didn't see– chose

1000
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,989
Speaker 2: not to see the disadvantage that it causes for children and,

1001
00:48:31,310 --> 00:48:32,810
Speaker 2: you know, when mums are on drugs and that kind

1002
00:48:32,830 --> 00:48:35,890
Speaker 2: of stuff. And probably there was some that was around me,

1003
00:48:35,950 --> 00:48:38,670
Speaker 2: but I never took note because it wasn't my problem.

1004
00:48:38,770 --> 00:48:40,129
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.

1005
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:44,460
Speaker 2: So, but by the time I was offending with my

1006
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,100
Speaker 2: partner at the time, my mindset around how I viewed

1007
00:48:48,140 --> 00:48:50,820
Speaker 2: the world was changing. I was in that, in that

1008
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,290
Speaker 2: change process from going from, I almost killed myself. right,

1009
00:48:57,350 --> 00:48:57,950
Speaker 2: with drugs.

1010
00:48:58,150 --> 00:48:59,089
Speaker 1: Oh, okay.

1011
00:48:59,130 --> 00:49:01,730
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to die from my using. Like

1012
00:49:01,810 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 2: I was so self-destructive around it.

1013
00:49:03,540 --> 00:49:05,219
Speaker 1: What sort of drugs were you using?

1014
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 2: Ice, cocaine.

1015
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:07,980
Speaker 1: Yeah, just that.

1016
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,380
Speaker 2: Anything, just not heroin. It's the only thing that I

1017
00:49:10,739 --> 00:49:13,620
Speaker 2: haven't ever tried. But at the time it was mainly

1018
00:49:13,739 --> 00:49:17,470
Speaker 2: ice though. And it went into this space where I–

1019
00:49:17,870 --> 00:49:20,739
Speaker 2: and it was not conscious at all. that I had

1020
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 2: given up on life and it took a moment of

1021
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 2: clarity for me around how dare I do this to

1022
00:49:31,380 --> 00:49:34,549
Speaker 2: my father. My father's lost two wives in his lifetime, right?

1023
00:49:34,910 --> 00:49:35,569
Speaker 1: Right.

1024
00:49:35,930 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: I cannot die for him. What am I doing here?

1025
00:49:39,180 --> 00:49:43,830
Speaker 2: I don't belong here. I have opportunity. I have life.

1026
00:49:43,930 --> 00:49:47,290
Speaker 2: I have, I have a world. Why am I doing

1027
00:49:47,310 --> 00:49:50,029
Speaker 2: this to myself and what got me here? And the

1028
00:49:50,070 --> 00:49:52,630
Speaker 2: person that I was dating at the time, um, as

1029
00:49:52,690 --> 00:49:55,630
Speaker 2: much as he was off the Richter scale and in

1030
00:49:55,730 --> 00:49:58,390
Speaker 2: his own thing, he was the one that kind of

1031
00:49:58,410 --> 00:50:00,469
Speaker 2: tapped me on the shoulder a couple of times and said,

1032
00:50:00,850 --> 00:50:01,490
Speaker 2: what are you doing?

1033
00:50:01,510 --> 00:50:03,130
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.

1034
00:50:03,210 --> 00:50:05,259
Speaker 2: If you stay here, you're going to die. And at

1035
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,020
Speaker 2: the time I didn't believe him, but he like literally

1036
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 2: was freaking out. He's like, oh my God, I'm going

1037
00:50:09,460 --> 00:50:10,580
Speaker 2: to wake up one day and she'll be dead.

1038
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1039
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,950
Speaker 2: And I just went, something has to change and I

1040
00:50:15,010 --> 00:50:18,589
Speaker 2: can't not try. Right. I've got to go and give

1041
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,070
Speaker 2: life a go. Whatever has led me here, however I

1042
00:50:22,110 --> 00:50:26,669
Speaker 2: got here, I have to go and fix it. Maybe

1043
00:50:26,730 --> 00:50:29,310
Speaker 2: not for myself right now, but for my dad and

1044
00:50:29,350 --> 00:50:33,670
Speaker 2: for Corey and Morgana and my uncle, Nan's not here anymore.

1045
00:50:34,090 --> 00:50:38,589
Speaker 2: Just those four people, right, came to mind. So I did.

1046
00:50:38,650 --> 00:50:40,569
Speaker 2: I just from one day to another just stopped using drugs.

1047
00:50:40,810 --> 00:50:40,989
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1048
00:50:41,530 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 2: And that was it. And then in that space of

1049
00:50:47,580 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 2: when you've done damage like I did and with intent

1050
00:50:51,940 --> 00:50:56,050
Speaker 2: to do damage, the recovery is really slow. You may

1051
00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:00,950
Speaker 2: stop using but just even things like how you thought process.

1052
00:51:01,810 --> 00:51:01,930
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1053
00:51:02,530 --> 00:51:06,250
Speaker 2: The relationship I was in then was really unhealthy. There was,

1054
00:51:07,050 --> 00:51:09,339
Speaker 2: you know, the belief system that I had built up

1055
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:15,140
Speaker 2: around things like domestic and family violence was so unreasonable

1056
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 2: and of abuse and of being controlled and all those things.

1057
00:51:19,540 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: I had no idea that was actually happening to me.

1058
00:51:21,460 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 2: So when I was getting clean, all these things, I

1059
00:51:23,380 --> 00:51:26,250
Speaker 2: had to process them and there was, you know, frameworks

1060
00:51:26,830 --> 00:51:29,170
Speaker 2: that you could wrap around those and suddenly I had

1061
00:51:29,250 --> 00:51:32,370
Speaker 2: words that that I could explain what I had gone

1062
00:51:32,430 --> 00:51:34,910
Speaker 2: through and it made and I just went and other

1063
00:51:34,950 --> 00:51:37,890
Speaker 2: people were healing from those things too and I went, oh,

1064
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:40,190
Speaker 2: my God, it's not just me. So that's the space

1065
00:51:40,250 --> 00:51:41,810
Speaker 2: I was in but I was growing and I was

1066
00:51:41,850 --> 00:51:43,989
Speaker 2: becoming a different person and I was trying to show

1067
00:51:44,010 --> 00:51:45,910
Speaker 2: up each day as a different person. So then I

1068
00:51:45,930 --> 00:51:52,340
Speaker 2: met my co-offender and just loved him, just thought he

1069
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 2: was the bee's knees.

1070
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,580
Speaker 1: And he would have been projecting that he was trying

1071
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,020
Speaker 1: to get off it too.

1072
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,650
Speaker 2: He was. But he had only just been out of

1073
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:01,430
Speaker 2: prison a year.

1074
00:52:01,610 --> 00:52:01,780
Speaker 1: Right.

1075
00:52:02,390 --> 00:52:04,370
Speaker 2: He's been in and out of prison all his life.

1076
00:52:05,130 --> 00:52:06,570
Speaker 2: Very different story to mine.

1077
00:52:06,610 --> 00:52:06,710
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1078
00:52:07,010 --> 00:52:10,049
Speaker 2: But we just connected and there was real love and

1079
00:52:10,090 --> 00:52:12,009
Speaker 2: care for each other. But again, I think that was

1080
00:52:12,050 --> 00:52:14,910
Speaker 2: more trauma bonding than anything else. And for me, there

1081
00:52:14,950 --> 00:52:17,810
Speaker 2: was also a part in it. I've always been quite

1082
00:52:17,870 --> 00:52:21,569
Speaker 2: strategic in my relationships of what I've wanted from it. Yeah.

1083
00:52:22,090 --> 00:52:25,690
Speaker 2: gone into it going, I want X, Y, Z, even

1084
00:52:25,730 --> 00:52:29,710
Speaker 2: if it's unrealistic. And with him, he was safe. He

1085
00:52:29,750 --> 00:52:36,390
Speaker 2: was kind. And I was still wild. So he'd say

1086
00:52:36,469 --> 00:52:40,219
Speaker 2: something and I'd lose my nana, right? And in a

1087
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 2: toxic relationship, the other person's going to react to that.

1088
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,009
Speaker 2: He just wouldn't. He'd just go, Tash, it's okay. So

1089
00:52:47,030 --> 00:52:47,730
Speaker 2: he gave me some space.

1090
00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:49,750
Speaker 1: He could settle you down. Yeah.

1091
00:52:49,850 --> 00:52:51,569
Speaker 2: He gave me some space to heal. So I think

1092
00:52:52,310 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 2: all of those things combined kept me feeling safe. So

1093
00:52:56,260 --> 00:52:59,259
Speaker 2: when he said, oh, you know, I still do X, Y,

1094
00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 2: Z and move a bit apart here and do a

1095
00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 2: bit of that, I kind of went, I don't care.

1096
00:53:05,020 --> 00:53:07,469
Speaker 2: And then he moved in and then he was like, oh,

1097
00:53:07,489 --> 00:53:09,410
Speaker 2: I want to make a million dollars.

1098
00:53:09,730 --> 00:53:09,890
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1099
00:53:10,270 --> 00:53:10,910
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, cool.

1100
00:53:11,010 --> 00:53:11,290
Speaker 1: All right.

1101
00:53:11,610 --> 00:53:15,340
Speaker 2: But we're doing it my way. Because you've been to prison.

1102
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,940
Speaker 2: I never have. Do it my way. It all went

1103
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: pear-shaped within a week or two. Like he was off

1104
00:53:20,140 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 2: doing his own way and I had the shits. But

1105
00:53:23,980 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 2: then it kind of was in my home anyway. And

1106
00:53:26,980 --> 00:53:30,100
Speaker 2: I just went, all right, you do whatever you're doing.

1107
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:33,399
Speaker 2: I don't care. And then it just became so unmanageable

1108
00:53:33,460 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 2: that I was just like, okay, cool. I'll just manage

1109
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 2: the money.

1110
00:53:36,500 --> 00:53:36,739
Speaker 1: Okay.

1111
00:53:36,980 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 2: So I was just counting cash and I'm like, should

1112
00:53:39,300 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 2: have rung the door and gone, can I get in

1113
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: trouble for this? Might have been a good, like, just

1114
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 2: in case anybody's listening and thinking of, you know, always check.

1115
00:53:47,300 --> 00:53:51,770
Speaker 1: Again, a cautionary tale. Like, in your mind, I can, well,

1116
00:53:52,430 --> 00:53:55,489
Speaker 1: he's a drug dealer. Yeah, I'm not. I just love him.

1117
00:53:55,590 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: I'm living with him, but I'm not involved in it. Yeah. Yeah.

1118
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:02,339
Speaker 2: And I'm advising him on some things that he's either

1119
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:03,620
Speaker 2: listening or not, right?

1120
00:54:03,660 --> 00:54:03,859
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1121
00:54:04,060 --> 00:54:05,580
Speaker 2: That might keep him safe.

1122
00:54:05,820 --> 00:54:08,580
Speaker 1: I would imagine that the scale of what you're caught,

1123
00:54:08,620 --> 00:54:13,189
Speaker 1: there would have been telephone intercepts and different things. So

1124
00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:16,620
Speaker 1: you would have been jammed up. In terms of your

1125
00:54:16,700 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 1: knowledge or involvement, you couldn't go away from having some

1126
00:54:21,580 --> 00:54:24,420
Speaker 1: active involvement in it and some benefits from it.

1127
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:25,230
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

1128
00:54:25,350 --> 00:54:29,870
Speaker 1: But I've had a look in what's reported publicly about

1129
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:31,110
Speaker 1: the offence. What year was it in?

1130
00:54:31,290 --> 00:54:34,570
Speaker 2: We were arrested in 2021. Okay.

1131
00:54:35,410 --> 00:54:41,089
Speaker 1: This is the judge's comments on sentencing. She stayed with

1132
00:54:41,110 --> 00:54:43,330
Speaker 1: him and she was aware of his business, helps him

1133
00:54:43,370 --> 00:54:45,890
Speaker 1: with deliveries, and then she's caught with full knowledge of

1134
00:54:45,930 --> 00:54:49,410
Speaker 1: the funds which are funding her lifestyle. So that was

1135
00:54:49,630 --> 00:54:53,609
Speaker 1: the judge's comment. But it was also reported, while she

1136
00:54:53,650 --> 00:54:56,730
Speaker 1: played some role in the management of the operation, it

1137
00:54:56,770 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 1: appeared it was always subordinate to her partner. So the

1138
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:05,359
Speaker 1: way you've described it is pretty much how the court

1139
00:55:05,380 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: saw it. Yes.

1140
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,320
Speaker 2: And I think... Turning up, being honest.

1141
00:55:10,500 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: Yep.

1142
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:14,430
Speaker 2: Not giving a statement.

1143
00:55:14,969 --> 00:55:15,410
Speaker 1: Yep.

1144
00:55:15,469 --> 00:55:19,150
Speaker 2: To police. You just don't talk to police when you're arrested.

1145
00:55:19,170 --> 00:55:20,710
Speaker 1: Oh, you're buying a hard ass.

1146
00:55:20,930 --> 00:55:24,310
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And they appreciated that in the end. I've

1147
00:55:24,430 --> 00:55:26,790
Speaker 2: got to say, you know, I can't speak for anybody else,

1148
00:55:26,910 --> 00:55:30,660
Speaker 2: but my experience with the detectives that I dealt with was,

1149
00:55:31,660 --> 00:55:33,500
Speaker 2: you know, there was actually a bit of banter even

1150
00:55:33,540 --> 00:55:36,140
Speaker 2: around our conversation because they were just like, oh, my God,

1151
00:55:36,780 --> 00:55:40,710
Speaker 2: we normally– because they put a lot of work into this, right,

1152
00:55:41,550 --> 00:55:44,370
Speaker 2: that for four months we were under investigation. And there

1153
00:55:44,390 --> 00:55:47,910
Speaker 2: was a joint task force because it was a separate

1154
00:55:47,930 --> 00:55:51,739
Speaker 2: investigation of one of the people that my ex was

1155
00:55:51,780 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 2: selling to, or we were selling to, I should say,

1156
00:55:53,860 --> 00:55:57,299
Speaker 2: because I'm involved in it, and he was already on investigation.

1157
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:02,940
Speaker 2: Then they found us through that. Put taps on everything, phone, cars, trackers.

1158
00:56:03,870 --> 00:56:05,610
Speaker 2: Four months is a long time, right?

1159
00:56:05,690 --> 00:56:06,530
Speaker 1: Gather a lot of evidence.

1160
00:56:06,550 --> 00:56:12,180
Speaker 2: A lot of evidence. And when they did arrest us, obviously,

1161
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 2: I worked the whole time that I had a job.

1162
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,980
Speaker 2: Like for me, that wasn't that main, great, I'm going

1163
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:21,070
Speaker 2: to get a bit of money, I'm going to be

1164
00:56:21,110 --> 00:56:23,950
Speaker 2: able to retire nicely, we can buy a house, you know,

1165
00:56:23,989 --> 00:56:25,850
Speaker 2: towards the end before we got arrested. It was very

1166
00:56:25,910 --> 00:56:28,990
Speaker 2: clear that we were not going to buy anything together. um,

1167
00:56:29,380 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 2: me and my ex, but that's, you know, we would

1168
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 2: have gone our separate ways whether we were arrested or not.

1169
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,180
Speaker 2: And when we were arrested, like, I think they were

1170
00:56:37,219 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 2: hoping that I would give them more. Yeah, absolutely.

1171
00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:41,380
Speaker 1: Right.

1172
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:43,919
Speaker 2: And, and I understand that that's the game that needs

1173
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:47,260
Speaker 2: to be played because ultimately what they were looking for

1174
00:56:47,340 --> 00:56:50,300
Speaker 2: was the next connections, right? Not just.

1175
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:51,899
Speaker 1: Yeah. You're reading it, right?

1176
00:56:51,940 --> 00:56:52,140
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1177
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:52,739
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1178
00:56:52,820 --> 00:56:54,580
Speaker 2: I know a bit, a little bit about the process,

1179
00:56:54,700 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 2: even though it's only one been through at one time,

1180
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,730
Speaker 2: but I was just like, nah, No statement given. Here's

1181
00:57:00,750 --> 00:57:04,730
Speaker 2: my lawyer's name. Please ring them. And can you ring

1182
00:57:04,770 --> 00:57:05,109
Speaker 2: my mum?

1183
00:57:05,930 --> 00:57:06,069
Speaker 1: Okay.

1184
00:57:06,090 --> 00:57:06,950
Speaker 2: Or my Corrie.

1185
00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:12,890
Speaker 1: Yeah. Shame and regret. Because the lifestyle that you live,

1186
00:57:13,210 --> 00:57:17,410
Speaker 1: and I'm surmising here, but okay, you're reckless, you're wild.

1187
00:57:17,660 --> 00:57:20,940
Speaker 1: I wasn't hurting anyone. I'm doing this. Then when you

1188
00:57:21,780 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: come to that point, I've been arrested. Yeah, it was

1189
00:57:24,700 --> 00:57:27,300
Speaker 1: in the media. You've got to phone your mum, caught

1190
00:57:27,340 --> 00:57:27,860
Speaker 1: up in the drugs.

1191
00:57:29,230 --> 00:57:33,530
Speaker 2: No shame. I don't have shame around it. And regret,

1192
00:57:33,570 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 2: I don't do regret. I look at things and learn

1193
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,580
Speaker 2: from them and then go, I don't want to do

1194
00:57:38,620 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 2: that again. But I don't have that whole, oh my God,

1195
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 2: I wish I didn't do things differently. I chose that

1196
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,780
Speaker 2: at the time. I knew I was breaking the law.

1197
00:57:49,220 --> 00:57:51,010
Speaker 2: Like I said, I didn't just wake up one day

1198
00:57:51,050 --> 00:57:53,610
Speaker 2: and date one drug dealer and it wasn't my first

1199
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 2: time involved in stuff like that before I just didn't care.

1200
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: This time around, a couple of times I said, this

1201
00:58:00,500 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 2: needs to wrap up. You've got your meal. Wrap it up.

1202
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,470
Speaker 2: Fuck it off. I don't want this in my life anymore.

1203
00:58:07,850 --> 00:58:11,490
Speaker 2: It's wrong. It doesn't sit well with who I'm becoming.

1204
00:58:11,850 --> 00:58:11,950
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1205
00:58:12,130 --> 00:58:13,990
Speaker 2: And who I want to be as a person. We're

1206
00:58:14,010 --> 00:58:15,750
Speaker 2: still going to take the money from it, right? Don't

1207
00:58:15,770 --> 00:58:16,310
Speaker 2: get me wrong.

1208
00:58:16,790 --> 00:58:19,380
Speaker 1: No, I'm hearing you and I appreciate your honesty with it.

1209
00:58:19,390 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 2: But there was a morality around it that I had

1210
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:23,220
Speaker 2: never felt before.

1211
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1212
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 2: And then when I had to face Corrie and Morgana,

1213
00:58:28,860 --> 00:58:31,290
Speaker 2: who Morgana picked me up from the police station when

1214
00:58:31,310 --> 00:58:31,950
Speaker 2: I got bail.

1215
00:58:32,130 --> 00:58:32,270
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1216
00:58:32,820 --> 00:58:35,420
Speaker 2: And she was so angry with me, right? And in

1217
00:58:35,460 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 2: the past when people that I cared for and that

1218
00:58:38,580 --> 00:58:42,150
Speaker 2: cared for me were angry with me or made me

1219
00:58:42,170 --> 00:58:45,610
Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable, I'd run. This time I didn't want to

1220
00:58:45,650 --> 00:58:49,530
Speaker 2: run and I wanted to fix it, but there was

1221
00:58:49,770 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 2: only one way to help Morgana and Corey trust me

1222
00:58:53,980 --> 00:58:57,020
Speaker 2: again was to just show up each day and do

1223
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:00,540
Speaker 2: the right thing, whatever that was. Because these people were

1224
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,450
Speaker 2: not my blood. They'd shown up for me time and

1225
00:59:03,470 --> 00:59:08,110
Speaker 2: time again and have never– it's never been conditional because

1226
00:59:08,130 --> 00:59:11,030
Speaker 2: the world that I chose to live in everything was conditional.

1227
00:59:12,150 --> 00:59:15,550
Speaker 2: But these, my, my dad, it was my family, my uncle,

1228
00:59:16,610 --> 00:59:20,260
Speaker 2: nothing's ever been conditional, but this time it came with

1229
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,340
Speaker 2: a condition that this is the last time. that they're

1230
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,620
Speaker 2: going to open the doors for me if I continue.

1231
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 1: To fuck up. Okay, well, that's a bit of a

1232
00:59:27,580 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: wake-up call.

1233
00:59:28,340 --> 00:59:30,470
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And it was then a choice that I had

1234
00:59:30,510 --> 00:59:33,070
Speaker 2: to make because I also was sitting in a space

1235
00:59:33,410 --> 00:59:38,090
Speaker 2: of I can continue to live this life, which I

1236
00:59:38,130 --> 00:59:41,430
Speaker 2: call dark, or I can choose to completely step into

1237
00:59:41,450 --> 00:59:45,580
Speaker 2: the light. And what am I so afraid of in

1238
00:59:45,620 --> 00:59:48,060
Speaker 2: the light? Why do I keep going back into this

1239
00:59:48,180 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 2: shady place where I used to hide?

1240
00:59:50,580 --> 00:59:50,660
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1241
00:59:52,410 --> 00:59:55,340
Speaker 2: I can't hide anymore because I don't belong there. It

1242
00:59:55,380 --> 00:59:57,580
Speaker 2: doesn't sit with my values. It isn't who I want

1243
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,439
Speaker 2: to be. I had no idea who exactly I wanted

1244
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,780
Speaker 2: to be yet, but that came with time. And I

1245
01:00:04,910 --> 01:00:10,150
Speaker 2: chose to, from that day forward, to always be honest

1246
01:00:10,950 --> 01:00:13,850
Speaker 2: with these people, to never leave them in the dark again, right,

1247
01:00:14,670 --> 01:00:17,010
Speaker 2: because I hadn't told them about it. For me, that

1248
01:00:17,050 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 2: was safety for them, right? They don't need to know.

1249
01:00:19,140 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 2: And that.

1250
01:00:22,270 --> 01:00:25,550
Speaker 2: To create that change, I also had to really vet

1251
01:00:25,630 --> 01:00:28,110
Speaker 2: the people that I allowed to step into my life.

1252
01:00:28,350 --> 01:00:28,550
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1253
01:00:29,410 --> 01:00:32,620
Speaker 2: And when you do that, right, life becomes really kind

1254
01:00:32,660 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 2: of lonely, especially if you don't have the network that

1255
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:37,300
Speaker 2: I had that are already in the line and that

1256
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,180
Speaker 2: have this, if you don't have that, that space, that's

1257
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,470
Speaker 2: what makes it so hard to create that change.

1258
01:00:43,110 --> 01:00:43,190
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1259
01:00:43,210 --> 01:00:46,170
Speaker 2: And to choose differently. But I did, I chose differently.

1260
01:00:46,450 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 2: And I'm telling you, the whole process of Arrest... being

1261
01:00:51,780 --> 01:00:55,140
Speaker 2: let go on bail, the conditions, trying to figure out

1262
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 2: what's going to happen. When you get the brief that

1263
01:00:58,180 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 2: I was like that much of but it was that

1264
01:01:00,140 --> 01:01:04,060
Speaker 2: big because it was both the other two offenders, trying

1265
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 2: to read through that, finding all this other stuff that

1266
01:01:07,700 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 2: I kind of half knew about but didn't really. And

1267
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,260
Speaker 2: so that world that I had banked on with him,

1268
01:01:15,660 --> 01:01:19,890
Speaker 2: that crumbling as well, it's, you know, there's no, I'm not,

1269
01:01:21,580 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 2: saying that it was unbearable, but it was pretty shitty.

1270
01:01:25,140 --> 01:01:28,500
Speaker 2: It was a shitty place to be, but the only

1271
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 2: person that put me in that place was myself.

1272
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: Well, the fact that you can acknowledge that is so

1273
01:01:35,780 --> 01:01:38,500
Speaker 1: helpful to move forward. Like if you're going, oh, but

1274
01:01:38,580 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 1: I was just in the wrong relationship, you had choices.

1275
01:01:43,020 --> 01:01:46,070
Speaker 2: Absolutely. They were all my choices. Every single one of

1276
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 2: those things None of the offence, look, I later on

1277
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:53,380
Speaker 2: spoke to my ex when we were first no contact.

1278
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1279
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 2: Once I went to prison, I actually wrote him a

1280
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:58,660
Speaker 2: letter and he was like, I thought you were going

1281
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:00,220
Speaker 2: to blame me. I said, why would I blame you?

1282
01:02:00,690 --> 01:02:02,950
Speaker 2: You made your choices. I made mine.

1283
01:02:02,970 --> 01:02:03,110
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1284
01:02:03,710 --> 01:02:05,810
Speaker 2: You didn't make me do anything, right?

1285
01:02:05,830 --> 01:02:06,170
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1286
01:02:06,990 --> 01:02:09,390
Speaker 2: That's not how it works when you're committing a crime.

1287
01:02:09,630 --> 01:02:11,610
Speaker 1: That could have been the easy path out for you

1288
01:02:11,670 --> 01:02:14,350
Speaker 1: because I'm sure the police offered you, well, you tell

1289
01:02:14,390 --> 01:02:16,470
Speaker 1: us what's going on and there'll be no charges or

1290
01:02:16,570 --> 01:02:18,670
Speaker 1: you'll be getting a letter of comfort and you won't

1291
01:02:18,690 --> 01:02:20,590
Speaker 1: be serving any time. So you would have had.

1292
01:02:20,890 --> 01:02:23,310
Speaker 2: They didn't offer that as such, but I knew that

1293
01:02:23,330 --> 01:02:25,510
Speaker 2: that was on the table, right? They didn't have to

1294
01:02:25,550 --> 01:02:28,169
Speaker 2: tell me, I'm quite intelligent. And I kind of knew

1295
01:02:28,230 --> 01:02:29,890
Speaker 2: that that was on the table and he knew that

1296
01:02:29,930 --> 01:02:31,660
Speaker 2: too at the time. That would have been the most

1297
01:02:31,700 --> 01:02:36,170
Speaker 2: horrendous time for him because He was shady, right? So

1298
01:02:36,210 --> 01:02:39,570
Speaker 2: he didn't, when you're shady, you think everybody else is too.

1299
01:02:39,890 --> 01:02:43,590
Speaker 2: But I would never, I made my choices. And when

1300
01:02:43,820 --> 01:02:47,060
Speaker 2: something happens and the consequences hit you, you've got to

1301
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 2: own them.

1302
01:02:47,860 --> 01:02:50,660
Speaker 1: Well, I think, and you've made some good choices, some

1303
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:52,820
Speaker 1: bad choices, but I think that's probably the best choice

1304
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 1: you made in your life. Because if you were finding excuses, well,

1305
01:02:57,470 --> 01:02:59,250
Speaker 1: I just got caught up in it. I wasn't really

1306
01:02:59,270 --> 01:03:00,970
Speaker 1: the blame for it. You would have fallen back into

1307
01:03:00,990 --> 01:03:01,430
Speaker 1: that life.

1308
01:03:01,450 --> 01:03:03,380
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I would have gone back there.

1309
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:08,780
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. But actually taking responsibility and accepting the

1310
01:03:08,820 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 1: consequences of the responsibility is a big thing.

1311
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:13,860
Speaker 2: It's the only way forward.

1312
01:03:14,510 --> 01:03:17,850
Speaker 1: All right. Well, we're going to take a break. At

1313
01:03:17,910 --> 01:03:21,490
Speaker 1: least we've got you arrested. It took me an hour

1314
01:03:21,510 --> 01:03:25,170
Speaker 1: to get you arrested. I'm sorry. No, but your backstory

1315
01:03:25,210 --> 01:03:29,630
Speaker 1: was fascinating. I think that's, you know, on a long-form

1316
01:03:29,670 --> 01:03:32,850
Speaker 1: chat podcast like this, it's interesting to put in the

1317
01:03:32,890 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 1: context how people got here. It's a crime podcast.

1318
01:03:36,340 --> 01:03:36,740
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1319
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:39,060
Speaker 1: But if we just start, I was dealing drugs, I

1320
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:43,620
Speaker 1: got arrested. The backstory is the interesting thing. What we

1321
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 1: are going to talk about in part two is your

1322
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 1: experience in prison. And, yeah, we highlighted that at the

1323
01:03:50,140 --> 01:03:54,110
Speaker 1: start of this episode where you're realised how privileged you were,

1324
01:03:54,870 --> 01:03:57,690
Speaker 1: what you'd learnt about yourself in prison, what you learnt

1325
01:03:57,730 --> 01:04:01,990
Speaker 1: about others and how it's sort of given you life

1326
01:04:02,050 --> 01:04:05,250
Speaker 1: purpose after leaving prison on what you're doing, which, yeah,

1327
01:04:05,470 --> 01:04:09,570
Speaker 1: we love stories of redemption here. Cool. So let's talk

1328
01:04:09,610 --> 01:04:11,950
Speaker 1: about that and all the issues that we discussed the

1329
01:04:11,970 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 1: other day where we could perhaps improve corrective services or, yeah,

1330
01:04:16,740 --> 01:04:19,140
Speaker 1: the prison system. Love to. Make it a better society.

1331
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:20,820
Speaker 2: Yes, and a safer one too.

1332
01:04:21,220 --> 01:04:23,500
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. Less crime, less victims.

1333
01:04:24,100 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

1334
01:04:24,620 --> 01:04:27,150
Speaker 1: Sounds great. Back soon. Okay. Cheers.