Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to a bonus episode of Ye Catch Killers. This
Speaker 1: is an episode I wish we weren't having. At the
Speaker 1: time of recording this episode, there's been a terrorist attack
Speaker 1: at Bondo Beach less than twenty four hours ago. We
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what this has happened, but this is
Speaker 1: what we do know. About six forty five pm on Sunday,
Speaker 1: the fourteenth of December, two gunmen shot multiple people at
Speaker 1: Bondo beach. It appears the intended targets were people gathered
Speaker 1: to celebrate the first day of the Jewish Honiker religious festival.
Speaker 1: At this stage, one gunman has been killed. The other
Speaker 1: is in custody and is in a critical condition. But
Speaker 1: before the gunmen were neutralized by police, they had shot
Speaker 1: and killed multiple people. At this stage, fifteen innocent people
Speaker 1: had deceased and there's more than forty people that are
Speaker 1: in hospital, some of with critical injuries. The incident has
Speaker 1: been declared a terrorist incident by a New South Wales
Speaker 1: Police Commission of mal Lanyon, the New South Wales Premier
Speaker 1: and the Australian Prime Minister has condemned what occurred down there.
Speaker 1: This truly is a sad day for all of Australia.
Speaker 1: It's probably the worst terrorist incident we've had on home soil,
Speaker 1: and my heart go out to all the victims, the
Speaker 1: people who have lost their lives, their loved ones, the
Speaker 1: injured people, anyone that was caught up in this senseless violence.
Speaker 1: This really is a sad day for this country. Peter Moroni,
Speaker 1: thanks for joining me on I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Welcome.
Speaker 1: Thanks, Sorry it's in these circumstances and yeah, it's less
Speaker 1: than twenty four hours since the Bondai massacre, which has
Speaker 1: been referred to the moment has occurred. I thought i'd
Speaker 1: get you back on the podcast because of your expertise
Speaker 1: in counter terrorism. You're a counter terrorist detective for a
Speaker 1: very long time and worked on some major investigations with
Speaker 1: the New South Wales Police and the work that doing
Speaker 1: since retiring from the police is very much in keeping
Speaker 1: with that. I just want to get your thoughts. So
Speaker 1: the purpose of the podcast here is to give people
Speaker 1: an understanding. I think we've all been shocked what we
Speaker 1: started to witness on a Sunday afternoon, hot summer's night
Speaker 1: in Sydney where we're all settling down the phone star's pinging,
Speaker 1: or if you're listening to the media, you're starting to
Speaker 1: get at reports of the gunman or shots fired. That
Speaker 1: was the first thing I heard, shots fired down in Bondi.
Speaker 1: I thought a bit strange, but that didn't realize the
Speaker 1: significantance of it. Then I got a text from my
Speaker 1: daughter dad, have you seen what's going on in Bondi?
Speaker 1: And that made me switch on the media and get
Speaker 1: a sense of it. When did you find out about it?
Speaker 2: Probably most people made I am monster.
Speaker 3: I was having a beer at a maze place and
Speaker 3: I've got a text I was one of the media
Speaker 3: out there's actually and I just thought, I doesn't it's
Speaker 3: not real. Yeah, it should be all right sort of thing,
Speaker 3: or perhaps you know, not to downplay, but perhaps another
Speaker 3: gang related shooting.
Speaker 2: Yeah that's going on.
Speaker 3: But as you say, the phone lit up and didn't
Speaker 3: stop so and then you started to scroll through social
Speaker 3: media and in came the links and got sent through
Speaker 3: a few videos and there it started to resonate, and
Speaker 3: you know, probably like a lot of people. Mate, you know,
Speaker 3: we've been around for a little bit of time. But
Speaker 3: I think the first thing was anger at just a
Speaker 3: cowardness of what I was seeing on the video. Anger
Speaker 3: was probably the first thing that stayed in my mind
Speaker 3: for about an hour.
Speaker 1: Just the random nature of it. You know, we've both
Speaker 1: been in the police. We understand the power of firearms
Speaker 1: and the damage they can do, and seeing long long
Speaker 1: arms being used in the area like Bondai Beach on
Speaker 1: a Sunday afternoon, that anger is probably a natural reaction
Speaker 1: to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, look at.
Speaker 3: Not any probably different to any other bloke that's been
Speaker 3: out of the cops now, but you still resonate and
Speaker 3: understand that kind of act and what that type of
Speaker 3: act is going to do obviously not only physical to
Speaker 3: the people that are being shot, but the emotional issues
Speaker 3: that are going to torment those victims, the victims families
Speaker 3: and no doubt the first responders as well. Mate, that
Speaker 3: there's a lot left over after that first shot rings out.
Speaker 1: My understanding is it's the biggest a terrorist incident in
Speaker 1: Australia on home soil. Would that be fair to say
Speaker 1: that's it?
Speaker 3: Certainly as I understand it that at this point in time,
Speaker 3: as you and I speak, I understand there is sixteen
Speaker 3: people that have unfortunately passed away up to forty that
Speaker 3: are injured. There is no other and it's been called
Speaker 3: for what it is. It's been called the Terrorist Act
Speaker 3: and it would certainly have to be well, it is
Speaker 3: the biggest terrorist based incident in Australia has ever seen
Speaker 3: to date.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're hoping we're going to avoid that. With
Speaker 1: your expertise in counter terrorism, you understand the consequences of
Speaker 1: when something like this can occur and the efforts that
Speaker 1: and I know you've been involved in some investigations where
Speaker 1: this type of thing has been prevented on large scales.
Speaker 1: What's your sense or how difficult it is for police
Speaker 1: to prevent these type of type of attacks.
Speaker 3: It's a really tough question to answer. If I could
Speaker 3: put it in the most simplest terms and explain it
Speaker 3: is that law enforcement and Asia have dropped the ball.
Speaker 3: And what I mean by that, respectfully, is that we
Speaker 3: have sixteen people at this point in time dead from
Speaker 3: a terrorist related incident. It's something that's going to come
Speaker 3: to the forefront. And Commissioner Mallennion is an exceptionally smart man,
Speaker 3: Mike Burgess equally, so they know those questions are going
Speaker 3: to come.
Speaker 2: How easy is it to stop?
Speaker 3: It's probably a question that I struggle to probably give
Speaker 3: you an answer because it depends on who is the individual,
Speaker 3: Are they connected to a particular other individual, particular cell,
Speaker 3: particular certain faith, how much bridge we've got over those people.
Speaker 3: So a whole lot of things come in, like people
Speaker 3: just think that you could pick this person up and
Speaker 3: there's a bit of a trend happening and we can
Speaker 3: target them. And I think back to the first podcast
Speaker 3: we did when I try to explain a lot around terrorism.
Speaker 3: Is your breadcrumbs are gone, like you know, your indicators
Speaker 3: are gone generally, So I have no doubt we'll trawl
Speaker 3: over the next twelve months now and unpack those individuals'
Speaker 3: lives and unpack the connections and all of those certain things.
Speaker 3: But to try to go a long way around answer
Speaker 3: real simple question for you, it's very difficult to prevent,
Speaker 3: particularly now in terms of the ability for them to
Speaker 3: communicate across multiple social media platforms, which buries it underground
Speaker 3: even harder. It's still a lot still to come out
Speaker 3: at the moment, whether these guys were part of a
Speaker 3: greater grip or were they self radicalized and operating on
Speaker 3: their own. If that is the latter is the case,
Speaker 3: and it's going to be very difficult because it's just
Speaker 3: a father and son.
Speaker 1: It's like there's two of them, but it's almost the
Speaker 1: lone actor. Just there happens to be two of them,
Speaker 1: and the relationship between the father and son there might
Speaker 1: be one as a power and the other one is
Speaker 1: a follower who knows what's happened? Was I watched and
Speaker 1: you know, I was glued to seeing what had occurred.
Speaker 1: I thought it was good messaging from the police. I
Speaker 1: thought Mount Lanyon hit the points at such an early
Speaker 1: early stage in the investigation, and yeah, if mistakes were made,
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying saying they were with identified, I
Speaker 1: think our response to this type of situation has improved
Speaker 1: since the Linked cafe, and that was eleven years ago.
Speaker 1: I thought there was and I was involved in that.
Speaker 1: There was a little bit of chaos around that, but
Speaker 1: a lot of lessons were learned, I think, sadly in
Speaker 1: recent times. The BONDI the stabbings taught again about about
Speaker 1: the response. Watching from the outside, What did you take
Speaker 1: away from the response by emergency services, not just police,
Speaker 1: ambulance and everyone else that was heavily involved.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it's you're right, you know that.
Speaker 3: It's as sad as those past events are, we do
Speaker 3: learn from them, and as you know, you take those
Speaker 3: learnings and you plug them back into your operating procedures
Speaker 3: to try to tighten those and go on. I've had
Speaker 3: a couple of different pieces of commentary come at me
Speaker 3: over the last six or so hours talking about the
Speaker 3: police response, and I understand from what I've been told
Speaker 3: that it was nine minutes from the first shot to
Speaker 3: the last shot being fired. When they're killed or one
Speaker 3: of them are killed a lot. Now the other argument
Speaker 3: as well, the police are on the updrate, or there
Speaker 3: were police working operationally at the time.
Speaker 2: What I'd like.
Speaker 3: To try to get across is that if I am
Speaker 3: out there operating as a police officer, they will certainly
Speaker 3: hear those shots. But I've spoke to people this morning
Speaker 3: that was on the beach yesterday coming out of the surf,
Speaker 3: and I was talking to one particular lady and she
Speaker 3: said to me that she first thought it was fireworks
Speaker 3: that was going off, and then it kicked in to
Speaker 3: go what's daytime? Yeah, that doesn't that doesn't compute. And
Speaker 3: then it's so she said to herself, well, it sounds
Speaker 3: like a gun. And I said, how long did it
Speaker 3: take it to actually resonate to go it is a gun?
Speaker 2: She has minute and a half.
Speaker 3: So I say that in that it's that idyllic Sunday
Speaker 3: afternoon and no one's anticipating it. Now, let's look at
Speaker 3: the police perspective, right, is they are there on the beach,
Speaker 3: or they are on route, they would be getting bombarded
Speaker 3: with multiple reports of a shooter or shooters. Yep, I
Speaker 3: would have no doubt there, But it would have been
Speaker 3: confusion about the number of shooters that were active. There
Speaker 3: would have been absolutely confusion, I would imagine around the
Speaker 3: type of weapon and why that becomes important. Go is
Speaker 3: you know, is it am I driving into someone with
Speaker 3: a pistol a clock for example? On my driving into
Speaker 3: as it was into someone who's got a long arm
Speaker 3: that we've seen there from the footage that one of
Speaker 3: the fellows had on. One of the rifles had a scope,
Speaker 3: so that can obviously be designed to pick you off
Speaker 3: from a greater distance. So all of these things are
Speaker 3: going through the police's mind in terms of where they're
Speaker 3: going to park, where they're going to pull up, the
Speaker 3: offenders are on the go, how do they get across
Speaker 3: to them? And I've seen footage of a young female
Speaker 3: constable that was sort of leapfrogging up the side of
Speaker 3: the cars to get out one of the offenders. It's overall,
Speaker 3: you know, people can say, well, it's a police's job,
Speaker 3: that's what you signed up to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah it is, and.
Speaker 3: Don't why not, don't argue that, but you know, look,
Speaker 3: they still leaped into the fire. From all of the
Speaker 3: evidence that I've seen, they still went at it. Knowing
Speaker 3: full well that they could pay, and there's two police
Speaker 3: that are being injured, and they did what they had
Speaker 3: to do. And I think to date, unless anyone can
Speaker 3: come forward with any other suggestion of any other behavior
Speaker 3: by the cops, I think they've done a hell of
Speaker 3: a job. Now, is the nine minutes a long time?
Speaker 2: It would be.
Speaker 3: It is if you're sitting out there getting shot at.
Speaker 3: But compound that to the police, because if the police
Speaker 3: come in hard and fast and get taken out in
Speaker 3: the first few minutes, no help to anyone.
Speaker 2: They haven't achieved anything, nothing at all.
Speaker 1: Well, I think the way you described that there outlines
Speaker 1: the complexity of what happens in the situation like that.
Speaker 1: Hindsight's a wonderful thing. We're all experts in the hindsight.
Speaker 1: We did make improvements, I think improvements, and I think
Speaker 1: that was generated from incidents that happened in the United States.
Speaker 1: We're active shooter and the response to police. It's not
Speaker 1: contained in the gachet that's not sealed off bondai and
Speaker 1: wait till the tactical police there. If it's an active shooter,
Speaker 1: the police role is to go in and finish the threat,
Speaker 1: to stop the stop the threat. Yeah, your thoughts on
Speaker 1: that is the way that we've got to respond because
Speaker 1: it's a different world in the scope that we live
Speaker 1: in now, isn't it. The active shooter response is the
Speaker 1: appropriate response.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Look, you know, and if we rewinder our clock back
Speaker 3: a little bit, is that our traditional container negay shape.
Speaker 3: It always comes off the back end of what's say
Speaker 3: a bank robbery gone wrong, whether they might have been
Speaker 3: sche masked up or their identities are hidden. So if
Speaker 3: I'm hiding my identities, I come in to do a crime,
Speaker 3: I've got the intention to get away with it and
Speaker 3: move on. The first thing that resonates with those two
Speaker 3: shooters from yesterday as soon as you see that first picture,
Speaker 3: no attempt to cover up their identity. So what that
Speaker 3: tells you from the outset is I am here. I'm
Speaker 3: here to cause as much death and mayem as I
Speaker 3: possibly can, and the only way it's going to stop
Speaker 3: is when you shoot me. Because I haven't covered their identity,
Speaker 3: they don't care.
Speaker 1: There was no plan escape.
Speaker 2: They were going to go and go until they died.
Speaker 1: From your experience in countert rorism, and we talked before
Speaker 1: we started recording about the magnitude of the crime scene.
Speaker 1: You were down there this morning, so yeah, less than
Speaker 1: twelve hours after the event. What was your takeaway from that?
Speaker 2: Then?
Speaker 1: How big is the crime scene we're looking at?
Speaker 2: That's huge.
Speaker 3: It's Bread's entire length of the beach. Now whilst people
Speaker 3: you know, a couple of reporters that I said to me,
Speaker 3: why is the entire Campbell Parade basically raped off? Going
Speaker 3: all the way down to the far left of Campbell
Speaker 3: Parade is where I believe the vehicle was with the ied,
Speaker 3: So the bomb squad we're working down there. Coming up
Speaker 3: a little bit to that bridge is where the main
Speaker 3: main fatalities were. It's heavily saturated with evidence, as one
Speaker 3: would imagine. But in terms of why do you rape
Speaker 3: off the entire rest of it, it's purely because as
Speaker 3: people are running, they're victims, potentially they're dropping evidence as
Speaker 3: they go at that relevant time, you know, mate, in
Speaker 3: terms of homicide crime scenes, far better I've got one go, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm far better. I mean to go out and secure
Speaker 3: everything I practically can secure. And as you know, we
Speaker 3: as we work that crime scene and we get more
Speaker 3: information and intelligence coming about the particular crime we're looking
Speaker 3: at that crime scene will come in a little bit,
Speaker 3: but it's it's big. It was very somber this morning.
Speaker 3: There was each corner. I had all of the various
Speaker 3: major press outlets. It's a bit of a who's who
Speaker 3: of morning TV so to speak down there. There was
Speaker 3: pleasantries explain exchange between each of them, but it was
Speaker 3: a very somber mood.
Speaker 1: It hits the psyche of a city like Sydney and
Speaker 1: the country for that matter, that it's widespread with the
Speaker 1: actual crime scene and the era. And you mentioned the IED,
Speaker 1: so have you got there. What's the latest update on that,
Speaker 1: because there was a suggestion and what we're talking about
Speaker 1: improvised explosive devices and there was concerns that they were
Speaker 1: around around the era.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand.
Speaker 3: My last piece of information around that is that there
Speaker 3: was two found in the vehicle that they drove in
Speaker 3: are there are two IEDs that have been since disarmed,
Speaker 3: but they were to be ignited via a ignition so
Speaker 3: ignited via a wick. So what that would sort of
Speaker 3: generally suggest is that quite clearly it's light it and
Speaker 3: throw it.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: I understand from a thing was from the press conference
Speaker 3: that was put out by Commissioner Onnion that they were
Speaker 3: found in the vehicle and disarmed. Now why they didn't
Speaker 3: come out and why they didn't get used or who
Speaker 3: will never know, but they weren't.
Speaker 1: And that's another consideration for police too on this. And
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to justify or whatever with police action,
Speaker 1: but coordinating off the scene. It wouldn't be the first
Speaker 1: time that the terrorist side has happened and then they're
Speaker 1: waiting for a secondary attack where people have come in.
Speaker 3: It's you know, it's the methodology of them. And there's
Speaker 3: numerous attacks around around the world that are happened, and
Speaker 3: what they'll often be is that, yes, the initial terrorist
Speaker 3: act has occurred, and what will be staged around that
Speaker 3: area are other potential offenders or other vehicles that are
Speaker 3: stoked with IEDs. Then the point around that could be twofold.
Speaker 3: It'll be one the initial chaos will occur and people
Speaker 3: will run and spread and then so the device can
Speaker 3: be activated to take them out. Or more traditionally, how
Speaker 3: it's been used in the past is we know law
Speaker 3: enforcement will come in on mass and that second device
Speaker 3: and even sometimes a third device is designed to take
Speaker 3: out those first responders.
Speaker 1: Again drawing on your experience working in counter terrorism. The
Speaker 1: strike force that's been set up to investigate this, well,
Speaker 1: I would imagine that it's huge. Who will that involve,
Speaker 1: what sort.
Speaker 3: Of It's a great question. It will involve everyone. So
Speaker 3: probably as you know, if you remember back to your day,
Speaker 3: that there is a particular strike force that set up,
Speaker 3: there's already pre planned tasks set in there, of course,
Speaker 3: but they'll grow as we go, but pre planned points
Speaker 3: of responsibilities. Obviously, State crime will come in, will be
Speaker 3: led by the counter Terrorism Coordination Command which is will
Speaker 3: essentially be run by what we call the Joint counter
Speaker 3: Terrorism Commands and involve the AFP and the New South
Speaker 3: Wales Police supported by State Crime and LAC Local Area
Speaker 3: Command detectives. But look, it's no secret Asia are going
Speaker 3: to be there. They're going to plug that information in
Speaker 3: New South Wales Crime Commission will be there in their
Speaker 3: capacity and as I understand that, the AFP everybody started
Speaker 3: to play a number of tactical resources into the area
Speaker 3: as well. If there's needs, surveillance will continue and that
Speaker 3: will come in from probably all around the state and
Speaker 3: act I'd.
Speaker 1: Imagine, Okay, so multi multi agencies, the other thing that
Speaker 1: very early in the after the incident that Commissional Lenion
Speaker 1: declared the Terrace incident. What's the significance of that and
Speaker 1: what does a commissioner need to declare it the terrace incident.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the main significance around it is it's it allows
Speaker 3: him to identify, for example, a particular area might help him.
Speaker 3: Let him identify a particular description of a person or
Speaker 3: a vehicle, for example, and basically say I'll make this
Speaker 3: up here as an example, and put a blanket over
Speaker 3: a particular postcode, or put a blanket over a certain
Speaker 3: streat or certain aspects of a suburb, and say anything
Speaker 3: contained in there is subject now to the powers. And
Speaker 3: that could be stop, search and detain, It could be
Speaker 3: go into the house and do what we need to do.
Speaker 3: It could be removal of your phone. So they'll be
Speaker 3: very broader power. So in the days where for example,
Speaker 3: we might have needed to say a search oneant, you know,
Speaker 3: we've got to go through the Affidavid process up into
Speaker 3: the courts, et cetera.
Speaker 2: With these powers, it basically.
Speaker 3: Becomes an automatic go do what you need to do
Speaker 3: in accordance with that legislation. So it frees them up
Speaker 3: drastically to do that, and to do that he actually
Speaker 3: stepped that out on his press release last night, and
Speaker 3: it was just a matter of getting a true understanding
Speaker 3: that the crime itself was connected or likely to be
Speaker 3: connected to an act of terrorism.
Speaker 2: He said.
Speaker 3: He was set aside of that very quickly and acted
Speaker 3: those powers. And those powers are why you saw that sift,
Speaker 3: swift response last night.
Speaker 1: We're talking about the other premises that were I think
Speaker 1: it was from Brig were executed warrants or gained entry
Speaker 1: into the premises.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they did that and that's what enables you
Speaker 3: to do because as you can imagine, what we're trying
Speaker 3: to do, he is move very swiftly to prevent either
Speaker 3: the loss or destruction of evidence, but also to get
Speaker 3: ahead of capturing if there's any potential known offenders out there.
Speaker 3: And it just allows for a very swift response as
Speaker 3: opposed to going through what we might have to normally
Speaker 3: go through with warrants, et cetera.
Speaker 1: Yeah, understood. With the situation, the way it's occurred and
Speaker 1: the police response in the lead up to this, there's
Speaker 1: been a lot, i'd describe, and Sydney based, there's been
Speaker 1: a lot of discontent within the community. There's been protests
Speaker 1: Someday afternoon, there was multiple protests for the past six
Speaker 1: months or even longer. Do you think that fuels an
Speaker 1: environment where this type of thing can happen, where there's ideology,
Speaker 1: is very strong ideologies and people have strong, strong views.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Look, I think if I said I know it's had
Speaker 3: no impact, I think I'd be lying. When when you
Speaker 3: see what we see play out over the last six months,
Speaker 3: and everyone I've spoke to from much like yourself made
Speaker 3: is when unfortunately something like this happens, is you jump
Speaker 3: on the old network and there's a number of stories
Speaker 3: been exchanged. But when you've got that type of rehtoric
Speaker 3: being pushed out there, or that one particular point of
Speaker 3: view being pushed out there, and here's a ver this
Speaker 3: has put to me about half an hour ago before
Speaker 3: I come on in. In terms of the right wing
Speaker 3: extremist protests, we saw absolutely opponent. Don't get me wrong,
Speaker 3: I understand as a South African fellow deported from the
Speaker 3: country within days. Yet let's look at the other side.
Speaker 3: Let's look at the protests that have been run. Let's
Speaker 3: look at the permitted mass flags, which is a terrorist
Speaker 3: organization that have been permitted to fly.
Speaker 2: Let's look at.
Speaker 3: The disproportionate response in terms of let that walk.
Speaker 2: We're going to cut that one off at the knees
Speaker 2: and push it out.
Speaker 3: If we're going to do this properly and in the
Speaker 3: most polite terms as I can put it. You're in Australia.
Speaker 3: We have our culture, we have our laws, we have
Speaker 3: our rules. No different if you and I went overseas
Speaker 3: to any particular country. The first thing we do is
Speaker 3: we are bid by their laws, their rules, their customs.
Speaker 3: Now they have avoided by our rules in the sense
Speaker 3: that they protested, and they protested lawfully. But the vast
Speaker 3: number of mixed messages that it's being sent out is
Speaker 3: here we have rightly. So this fellow on the right
Speaker 3: wing extremism South African at that point protested in silence,
Speaker 3: deported and not saying he shouldn't have been. But let's
Speaker 3: go the other way. We've got supporters of Hermas flying
Speaker 3: a flag they celebrate a year to the date of
Speaker 3: the attacks in Israel. How on earth does that even
Speaker 3: balance itself? It doesn't, So should we now expect to
Speaker 3: see either Well, clearly, the individual that's still alive. He's
Speaker 3: going to obviously stand trial. But what about now if
Speaker 3: we find and we cast the net a bit wider
Speaker 3: and we start to find now people that may be
Speaker 3: aided are bettered in some description.
Speaker 2: Are we going to punt them?
Speaker 3: Are we going to deport them out of the country
Speaker 3: back to where they come from?
Speaker 2: That'll be a key question.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a different situation because it's a complex situation.
Speaker 1: I look at this and when you've got ideologies one
Speaker 1: extreme side and the other extreme side. And I think
Speaker 1: it was Dave Gore, our Good Mates made based on
Speaker 1: his book, a former counter terrace operator but also an academic,
Speaker 1: and talking about when the right wing rises, you like
Speaker 1: starting to be a concern to law enforcement. You don't
Speaker 1: just have to concentrate on the right wing because the
Speaker 1: left wing will rise together. What I got the sense of,
Speaker 1: and I'm no expert in this field, but what I
Speaker 1: got the sense of in this city there was such
Speaker 1: strong polarizing views. And what you're talking about is how
Speaker 1: does law enforcement deal with that? Do you deal with
Speaker 1: it across the board? The thing that saddens me about
Speaker 1: this mostly is it looks like a particular group was targeted,
Speaker 1: but it's our whole community, how society has been targeted
Speaker 1: when we're bringing this. And I think we lived in
Speaker 1: a world perhaps naively because I know you and I speaking,
Speaker 1: and it didn't surprise us that this has happened, and
Speaker 1: other people involved in the world a little bit in
Speaker 1: detail hasn't come as a surprise. But we felt like
Speaker 1: we were different and this is sort of showing that
Speaker 1: we're not different and this type of violence can impact
Speaker 1: on us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look at you know, it's sad.
Speaker 3: You know, like I hear on the radio at times
Speaker 3: and people saying to me, you know that this is
Speaker 3: not the Australia that we knew. You know, this is
Speaker 3: not the Australia we grew up with. Well it's not.
Speaker 3: We've changed as a country. The world's changed for that matter,
Speaker 3: and sometimes not for the better. It doesn't mean we
Speaker 3: have to accept it though, But you know, this is
Speaker 3: where that defining moment now is is well, what are
Speaker 3: we going to do about this as a nation? What
Speaker 3: is the rhetoric and the tone and the stance that
Speaker 3: our government is now going to take. Where's the line
Speaker 3: in the sand that people can't cross now? And how
Speaker 3: are we going to.
Speaker 1: Enforce that we're not immune to it.
Speaker 3: No we're not, mate, No, look we're not at all.
Speaker 3: And you know, because people move to this country and
Speaker 3: irrespective of where they're from, they don't check their world
Speaker 3: problems at customs. Those problems come with them over the border.
Speaker 3: Now I'm not saying before I get shouted down about
Speaker 3: multiculturalism and all these things. I had a lot of
Speaker 3: great mates Italians, Greeks, Vietnamese, Chinese, whatever you're like, a
Speaker 3: lot of great mates. Immigration has done a lot for
Speaker 3: this country. Multiculturalism has done a lot for this country.
Speaker 3: But at the same token, you cannot expect to open
Speaker 3: your gates bring in a million plus people in the
Speaker 3: last three years and go to them. Come, but just
Speaker 3: check all your baggage at customs and don't bring that
Speaker 3: with you. It's not logic, it's not going to happen.
Speaker 3: Those problems will come. So the problems will come. Now
Speaker 3: now it's an issue on back on law enforcement, back
Speaker 3: on the government of New Southward Australia to actually turn
Speaker 3: your head around and go it is now foreseeable that
Speaker 3: these problems will come over the border. These problems are
Speaker 3: going to come to our shores. What do we do
Speaker 3: big conversation, but you've got to have it.
Speaker 1: Well, it is a big conversation, and it's very divisive,
Speaker 1: like just having that conversation that polarizes people just offering
Speaker 1: an opinion that way, Maybe we need to all take
Speaker 1: a step back and have a balanced conversation where we're
Speaker 1: not it's not such an inflammatory comments that just escalate.
Speaker 1: Because that's what's worried me in this environment. I've just
Speaker 1: felt like it's almost like it was inevitable the way
Speaker 1: this was building up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that was certainly.
Speaker 3: And it's funny, you know, I've spoke to a few
Speaker 3: people today and they've all said the same thing. You know,
Speaker 3: they could feel that powder cake just coming and coming
Speaker 3: and coming, and I was just going to be a
Speaker 3: matter of time. And I totally concur with you, mate,
Speaker 3: that right now is not the time to respond. Yeah,
Speaker 3: by all means. And what I mean is sure, we're
Speaker 3: going to respond to what we're dealing with. We're going
Speaker 3: to put some measures in place. Absolutely we'll do that,
Speaker 3: but let's take a step back. Let's do what we
Speaker 3: can do now for the victims. Let us do what
Speaker 3: we can do for the community or bondai for the
Speaker 3: Jewish community for the greater Austrayian community. Then when we're measured,
Speaker 3: let's start talking some real talk.
Speaker 1: Make the decisions. Yeah, I also I can't help but
Speaker 1: think it plays into it. Then we can reference the
Speaker 1: father and son per betrayers, put them in the category
Speaker 1: of a lone actor. But mental health issues come into this.
Speaker 1: So it's multi layered, isn't it multi layer in terms
Speaker 1: of what sets a person off? And you've made a
Speaker 1: very valid point. The moment they turn up and they're
Speaker 1: not mass they're not covering their face, they had no
Speaker 1: escape plan that was they were going to shoot it
Speaker 1: out until someone shot them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, and you make a very good point.
Speaker 3: There may too in that if we had this conversation
Speaker 3: maybe say ten years ago trip we would be traditionally
Speaker 3: then talking Islamic terrorism, because that's what our main concern
Speaker 3: was back in the day. But to your very valid point,
Speaker 3: we are now dealing with right wing, left wing take
Speaker 3: your pick of any other letters that were floating around
Speaker 3: out there. But also it's now about the mental health
Speaker 3: aspect that's floating out We saw that probably kicking out
Speaker 3: of Bondai at Westfields obviously as a bit of a
Speaker 3: central piece. So now all of that gets wrapped up
Speaker 3: into the powder kick and it's about then the responding
Speaker 3: police showing up to go well, which particular issue am
Speaker 3: I actually trying to confront versus just trying to deal
Speaker 3: with what they're dealing with. So there's so much and
Speaker 3: I speak to a lot of police that their work
Speaker 3: through mental health and attending to mental health crisis has
Speaker 3: phenomenally gone through the roof. There's several clients that I've
Speaker 3: got that I do reviews for based on the violence
Speaker 3: to their staff from mental health patience. It's driving it
Speaker 3: through the roof. It's driving those sorts of issues that
Speaker 3: are impacting, as you rightly say, made an impacting not
Speaker 3: only at a policing level, but at a society level
Speaker 3: and someone and someone the flow and effect goes.
Speaker 1: One thing that I have always seen in policing that
Speaker 1: when incidents occur, we improve our practices. And that's not
Speaker 1: even drawing any inference to the response or the lead
Speaker 1: up to this matter. That's something that we played out
Speaker 1: over the next twelve months with all the investigations going.
Speaker 1: But we learn when we first started going after serial killers,
Speaker 1: we're a naive in the way that that was approached,
Speaker 1: I'd like to think, and I just want to understand
Speaker 1: if you agree with it. I'd like to think whatever
Speaker 1: happens from this, the response by the police, not just
Speaker 1: a response to an incident, preparing for an incident and
Speaker 1: preventing incident will improve.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and that comes for a lot of your
Speaker 3: listeners that we know what's going to come is obviously
Speaker 3: going to be the criminal side of the house for
Speaker 3: the shooter that's left, but the larger coronial part that
Speaker 3: will come and it's often out of those coronial reviews
Speaker 3: go as you know, is that it will look at,
Speaker 3: for example, process procedure and communications. Was there any failures
Speaker 3: on the policing side, Is there any additional advancement on
Speaker 3: equipment that could be given into the police, And they
Speaker 3: will look at a bit of a root cause analysis
Speaker 3: around what else may have contributed, and that'll be multi layered.
Speaker 3: But you're right, the whole point around that is then
Speaker 3: the current is going to make unthane recommendations to the
Speaker 3: police and then the police will take that. They will
Speaker 3: then fine tune our procedures again and off we go,
Speaker 3: and the old container negotiates the perfect example that's how
Speaker 3: we always.
Speaker 2: Thought it was done.
Speaker 1: Then it's shown to not that's retard the way we
Speaker 1: want it.
Speaker 3: It doesn't work in terror of situations, so that it's
Speaker 3: it's been refined and now we've now we're dealing with
Speaker 3: what we deal with.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I totally would agree that.
Speaker 3: A complete hooless bolus assessment of what went right and
Speaker 3: what went wrong will come and then flowing on for
Speaker 3: that will be procedural shifts.
Speaker 1: And what about the role of the public in these
Speaker 1: situations too? That the intel that we get from police,
Speaker 1: We've got creative ways of getting the intel, but a
Speaker 1: large part of it is from information provided to the
Speaker 1: public from the public, and it might be considered the
Speaker 1: throw away line that this type of information should be
Speaker 1: passed on the law enforcement. Would that be.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's in a not too dissimilar approach. I talked
Speaker 3: to a lot of schools around active armed defenders, and
Speaker 3: what we talked to them about is there's been various
Speaker 3: studies done, for example, overseas, and interview has done of
Speaker 3: either teachers or students that were made aware of some
Speaker 3: threats being made by the eventual perpetrators, and they were
Speaker 3: interviewed and they were interviewed in terms of all if
Speaker 3: you knew something, what in you say something? And the
Speaker 3: common adage of you know, I didn't think it was real.
Speaker 3: I didn't think they were serious. I didn't think it
Speaker 3: would happen here. I didn't want to be a snitch,
Speaker 3: and I didn't want to cause any problems or float.
Speaker 3: And as I can probably say to that.
Speaker 2: Is, leave that to the police.
Speaker 3: Report it because you don't know what one simple piece
Speaker 3: of your puzzle is. But when I match it against
Speaker 3: the other two, three, four, five pieces of information that
Speaker 3: I actually also have, as you know, our puzzle becomes
Speaker 3: a bigger picture, and now we can put some reliant,
Speaker 3: some credibility on this thing and start to attack it properly.
Speaker 3: In that sense, So I know it's you know, if
Speaker 3: you see say something, say something, but please, by all
Speaker 3: means don't. You're not going to cause any headache to
Speaker 3: the police. That's the job.
Speaker 2: Get us the information and let them make that the police.
Speaker 1: Prefer to have that information. I think it's also important
Speaker 1: what you touched on about focusing on the victims, the
Speaker 1: people who have been impacted upon. I'm a big believer
Speaker 1: in don't give any airtime to the perpetrators, and they're
Speaker 1: not dying as saviors or martyrs. That they're cowards and
Speaker 1: it's the most cowardly thing you can do to attack.
Speaker 3: In this absolutely, and you may not ever notice. But
Speaker 3: if I ever do an interview, I'll never mentioned the
Speaker 3: name of the offender.
Speaker 2: Ever.
Speaker 3: I don't want that person doesn't have the right to
Speaker 3: have their name reference to all, whether they're alive or dead.
Speaker 3: And it would be my wish that the media.
Speaker 2: Black it out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, go simon on them. Just call them the offender
Speaker 3: or whoever will pick another word, but don't reference their name.
Speaker 1: Well, not this simmer lesser scale, but still the consequences
Speaker 1: on the coward punch, just changing the narrative. It's not
Speaker 1: a king hit. It was a coward punch. Absolutely, these
Speaker 1: are coward cowardly attacks. But look, a lot's going to
Speaker 1: come out from from what happened response, looking at the individuals,
Speaker 1: the emergency services, the police response, the community response. It
Speaker 1: made you made you proud.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it did.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: I went down to Bondaio this morning, as I said,
Speaker 3: and you'll know what I mean, And you walk down
Speaker 3: there and knowing full well that as you step around
Speaker 3: this corner. What was here twelve hours ago? It was
Speaker 3: It's Bondai. It was a Sunday afternoon. It was full
Speaker 3: of life, it was full of happiness, it was full
Speaker 3: of laughter. It was silent. It was just eerily silent.
Speaker 2: All of us.
Speaker 3: There were were media, there was a few onlookers that
Speaker 3: came out at night. The we'll often probably hear about police, police, police,
Speaker 3: but the ambulance officers, fire and rescue officers, the ses
Speaker 3: that played the part.
Speaker 2: The lifeguards at Bondai.
Speaker 3: I spoke to one this morning who was still having
Speaker 3: difficulty coming to grips with what they saw. But you're right,
Speaker 3: you know that, I think, no matter what we go
Speaker 3: through in Australia, that will always stand up and take
Speaker 3: on whatever it is we've got to take on. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it's all of those first responders. You know, they should
Speaker 3: stand proud, they should stand tall, and as you and
Speaker 3: I have spoken about before, once the does settles, if
Speaker 3: you need to help go and get it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, definitely, because I think there's going to be
Speaker 1: a lot of people affected by what they've experienced in
Speaker 1: this this incident. First responders, life savers, the the ambos,
Speaker 1: all the doctors, the nurses in the in the hospital,
Speaker 1: but also members of the public like acts of bravery
Speaker 1: that that dude that's grabbed the blake with the rifle.
Speaker 1: Good on him, you know.
Speaker 2: Just phenomenal, wasn't it.
Speaker 3: You know that he had that option to stay where
Speaker 3: he was, He did not have to step out into
Speaker 3: the fray, so to speak, but he did it, and
Speaker 3: you know, good on him.
Speaker 2: And they're the ones that we do.
Speaker 3: So I mean that that is at the top echelon
Speaker 3: of someone who's done it. But I suspect Gays you
Speaker 3: you will know made it over when we start to
Speaker 3: hear these stories unpack a little bit more, there's going
Speaker 3: to be so many little stories like that that that
Speaker 3: drift out, and it'd be it'd be awesome that those
Speaker 3: stories reach reach the light and we get to hear about.
Speaker 1: And that when you call it a terror sack, that
Speaker 1: hits back at terrorist going you're not going to break us.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a good way to approach.
Speaker 3: It, absolutely, And we've got to stay on that focus
Speaker 3: and we've got to stay in that direction and just
Speaker 3: show that you can come, you can do what you're
Speaker 3: going to do, but we're not going to change we're
Speaker 3: not going to bow down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for coming on so early in the piece.
Speaker 1: And I know you've you've spoken to quite a few people,
Speaker 1: but that's your your expertise, and I think it's important
Speaker 1: to have this discussion too. I think people need to
Speaker 1: understand what's behind all this, how the response is because
Speaker 1: other other than that, like you've had a phone call
Speaker 1: from an elderly relative that just in mad panic, thinking
Speaker 1: the you know the world's going to stop as yeah,
Speaker 1: the incidents and they see how it plays out on TV.
Speaker 1: I thought mal Lanyon made a point and I think
Speaker 1: also the Premier made a point that let's not live
Speaker 1: in a heightened, heightened state of fear. This is something
Speaker 1: that we're in place, we can deal with, we can
Speaker 1: manage it. We will manage it. And I think I
Speaker 1: heard two of them say we're going to come no
Speaker 1: stone unturned, and that's the way an investigation like this
Speaker 1: will be approached.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and it has to be, doesn't it. You
Speaker 3: know that we've got a good, bad or ugly. Whether
Speaker 3: that stone yields something that perhaps shows what the police
Speaker 3: may or as may have missed, we'll have to deal
Speaker 3: with that. But the public had got to have confidence
Speaker 3: at the moment. Let's face it that the public confidence
Speaker 3: may not be see behind in the sense of going, well,
Speaker 3: he told us to trust you, and how did this
Speaker 3: actually even happen?
Speaker 2: I get that.
Speaker 3: What we've got to hold on to now is let
Speaker 3: them get the job done. Then there will come that
Speaker 3: time to ask questions. And for whatever is worth from
Speaker 3: an ex detective to your listeners is we've got to
Speaker 3: step up now and have an actual, real conversation about
Speaker 3: the real issues that are occurring now in this country. Yes,
Speaker 3: influence from what he's over over the other side of
Speaker 3: the world, but let's have that conversation. Let's turn those
Speaker 3: rocks over good, bad, ugly or indifferent, and then let's
Speaker 3: find a solution to would be would be my guidance?
Speaker 1: Well good, good way to finish after speaking to you,
Speaker 1: I'm also speaking to Nathan Brooks as psychologist from New
Speaker 1: Zealand Police and he's had a lot of experience and
Speaker 1: sort of delving into the mindset of these laying actor
Speaker 1: types and the difference between a mass killing and a
Speaker 1: terrorist act. But I think these are all the things
Speaker 1: that we've got to discuss so we understand what we're doing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's hope we're not having this conversation again again soon.
Speaker 1: It's good to see him, but good.
Speaker 2: To see thanks for having me in Yeah, taking the time.
Speaker 1: Cheers, Thank you, doctor Nathan Brooks. Thanks for joining me
Speaker 1: on I Catch Killers.
Speaker 4: It's good to talk again, Gary, And unfortunately it's under
Speaker 4: very tragic circumstances.
Speaker 1: Yeah. As much as I enjoyed talking to you last time,
Speaker 1: I was hoping we wouldn't be talking this recent after
Speaker 1: you last appeared on I Catch Killers, but the recent
Speaker 1: events less than twenty four hours ago. It's a situation
Speaker 1: that we've all dreaded. It's a horrible situation, but I
Speaker 1: thought we'd get a bit of an understanding. Prior to
Speaker 1: speaking to you, I spoke to a counter terrorism expert
Speaker 1: from New South Wales. What I'd like to talk to
Speaker 1: you about is getting an understanding of the type of
Speaker 1: people that might commit an offense like this. Now, I
Speaker 1: fully understand we're in the very early stages of it
Speaker 1: and all the information hasn't come out, but it's been
Speaker 1: declared a terrorist attack by our the New South Wales
Speaker 1: Police Commissioner mal Lanyon very early in the piece declared
Speaker 1: the terrorist attack. I know. When I last spoke to you,
Speaker 1: we talked about the difference between terrorist attacks and a
Speaker 1: spree or rampage killing. The fact that our commissioner has
Speaker 1: come out very early and called it a terrorist attack,
Speaker 1: what does that tell you in your expertise?
Speaker 4: You look at my cavit garre before I start that,
Speaker 4: I'm affiliated with various agencies and I'm here on my
Speaker 4: own volition and not representing any of those today. But
Speaker 4: when we talk about terrorism, we're really talking about an
Speaker 4: act that is socially or politically motivated, and there is
Speaker 4: the intent to try and create change and foster fear
Speaker 4: and even try and accelerate those social and political motivations
Speaker 4: for the cause. That is underneath or underlying the intention
Speaker 4: and the motivation of the offending.
Speaker 1: The fact that it's happened at Bondi Beach. Leaning into
Speaker 1: the terrorist side of things. If there's one location that's
Speaker 1: iconic with Sydney, Australia, it's Bondi Beach and worldwide attention
Speaker 1: that's a well known location. Is that something that is
Speaker 1: often part of the act of terrorism. To make sure
Speaker 1: that we create that situation where people are aware of
Speaker 1: what's occurred, I.
Speaker 4: Think in general. When we look at loan actor attacks,
Speaker 4: which at this stage this appears to fit into is
Speaker 4: people target will choose targets that will bring a lot
Speaker 4: of casualties, a lot of attention, that can be quite
Speaker 4: symbolic at times as well. But they are in some ways,
Speaker 4: I guess, heavy patroned areas that allow people to ultimately
Speaker 4: maximize the casualties. And that's why we see things like
Speaker 4: schools being targeted and are they heavily patron areas where
Speaker 4: they are able to within a matter of minutes inflict
Speaker 4: a high level of often lethal harm.
Speaker 1: You referred to it as a loan actor event, and
Speaker 1: our understanding this stage, very early stages. It was a
Speaker 1: father and son. The fifty year old father was killed
Speaker 1: during the police operation and the son is in custody
Speaker 1: but in a critical condition, is my understanding at this
Speaker 1: point in time. What does that tell you and why
Speaker 1: do we refer to it as loan actor when there's
Speaker 1: more than one perpetrator involved.
Speaker 4: We have seen self initiated acts of violence over the years,
Speaker 4: such as the Columbine attack over in the US, where
Speaker 4: it can occasionally be in diads or triads or small
Speaker 4: groups of individuals that come together. The will and Billa
Speaker 4: shooting in Queensland's probably another case where we had family
Speaker 4: members that were involved as well. So when we have
Speaker 4: more than one or two people or a couple of
Speaker 4: people coming together, we can still call it load actor.
Speaker 4: So these are individuals that are basically self initiated and
Speaker 4: acting on their own volition rather than at the direction
Speaker 4: of others or such as a terrorist group. So often
Speaker 4: we think about it as just this self initiated movement
Speaker 4: towards violence. And obviously we'll get more information as the
Speaker 4: weeks go on around whether there were greater connections abroad
Speaker 4: or even locally in New South Wales for instance, But
Speaker 4: at the moment the information seems to suggest this is
Speaker 4: self initiated a.
Speaker 1: Father and son. To me, we're talking to ideology when
Speaker 1: the terrorist aack occurs, generally it's acting on that ideology.
Speaker 1: Does tell you anything about the family environment. The fact
Speaker 1: that the father and son won the Schums were of
Speaker 1: the same belief in same ideology and wanted to take
Speaker 1: such extreme action.
Speaker 4: Well, family relationships and dynamics can be very powerful and influential,
Speaker 4: can't they. And it reminds me in some ways of
Speaker 4: the belt Away or DC sniper shooting case that we
Speaker 4: had with John Muhammad who was forty one and Lee
Speaker 4: Malvo who was a seventeen year old. And Muhammad took
Speaker 4: Malvo under his wings and they had a somewhat of
Speaker 4: a father's son relationship, and he indoctrinated and coerced Malvo
Speaker 4: into carrying out the series of shootings which occurred over
Speaker 4: several months across the DC area.
Speaker 1: I look at this as a mass shooting, terrorist attack
Speaker 1: as it's been defined. How do we prevent that? Now
Speaker 1: that's a very broad broad question, but we're looking at
Speaker 1: everyone's got beliefs ideologies, where those ideologies become extreme and
Speaker 1: when they start to act on the ideologies, how can
Speaker 1: that be? Police still prevent it? And I know you
Speaker 1: can speak from experience you work with the Enz police,
Speaker 1: you had the christ Church massacre. Things like that. They're
Speaker 1: very hard. I'm looking at it from a former police
Speaker 1: officer's point of view, It's very hard to prevent this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, I think the recipe, or a simple analogy
Speaker 4: in some ways, is that being aggrieved loads the gun.
Speaker 4: Then we have the person becoming fixated and psychologically preoccupied
Speaker 4: and that aims it. And then from there we do
Speaker 4: the development of extremely overvalued beliefs and overweighted ideas then
Speaker 4: pulls the trigger. So it's a simple way to think
Speaker 4: about things. But we're talking about a series of processes
Speaker 4: that occurs for the person and that evolves over time.
Speaker 4: Potentially in this case, we're talking about that dynamic between
Speaker 4: two people and how that's transpired and potentially one may
Speaker 4: have a more dominant influence on the other, but ultimately
Speaker 4: talking about the evolution and evolvement of that process. And
Speaker 4: then when we think about prevention, we think about how
Speaker 4: do we identify that in the early stages, when there
Speaker 4: are grievances, when there are indicators of psychological preoccupation. How
Speaker 4: do we get an intervention in there when that is developing,
Speaker 4: rather than at the point when the dials are so
Speaker 4: dialed up that we're simply hoping that we get lucky
Speaker 4: by receiving information that someone's days away from carrying out attacks.
Speaker 4: So we really need to be looking at the markets early.
Speaker 4: And we've spoken before about the brilliant role that Fixated
Speaker 4: Threat Assessment Center's played in this space around the triaging
Speaker 4: and allocating a support and resources for the folks. So
Speaker 4: we have great systems in place, But of course people
Speaker 4: can operate in isolation, as we know with self initiative folks,
Speaker 4: and that creates enormous challenges in the information doesn't get
Speaker 4: out and doesn't flow.
Speaker 1: I think when we spoke before, one of the things
Speaker 1: that we encourage was community support. If anyone's acting behavior,
Speaker 1: their behavior is that little bit strange, that report it
Speaker 1: to authorities and bring it to their attention. Would you
Speaker 1: reinforce that?
Speaker 4: Absolutely? You know, communities are at the heart of policing,
Speaker 4: and that information is as small or irrelevant as it
Speaker 4: may seem. Sharing that with another family member, another friend,
Speaker 4: getting a different perspective is really crucial because they might
Speaker 4: be able to provide context around why they think it's concerning,
Speaker 4: and that then might allow another door to open and
Speaker 4: eventually share that information and again get it to the
Speaker 4: right people, even if it's community workers or culturally ais
Speaker 4: on people that are able to have the conversations and
Speaker 4: potentially shed some light on what might be going on.
Speaker 1: And I suppose that small piece of information could be
Speaker 1: the critical piece of information. It just adds to the
Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzle when you're trying to put these things together.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, we know in these cases internationally generally between fifty
Speaker 4: to ninety percent have leakage, and leakage is ultimately someone
Speaker 4: talking to another person where they express their intent to
Speaker 4: carry out an active harm. So again, in a case
Speaker 4: like this, without jumping to conclusions, we need to think
Speaker 4: about what could the role of leakage been in something
Speaker 4: like this.
Speaker 1: And that leakage could be what could be considered an
Speaker 1: idle threat, Oh, this person's going to get together one day,
Speaker 1: they're going to get what's coming to them, that type
Speaker 1: of thing. But that leakage is what my interpretation of
Speaker 1: what you're saying there, that potential indicator this is an
Speaker 1: action they might actually carry out.
Speaker 4: So you know, it might be something as simple as
Speaker 4: saying to a friend that you know, I'm going to
Speaker 4: go and make sure that I carry out justice and
Speaker 4: revenge for this cause.
Speaker 1: What was the reaction over in New Zealand? Because New
Speaker 1: Zealand then itself has been touched by massacres even on
Speaker 1: the larger scale than.
Speaker 4: This, I think, like anywhere in the world, everyone's shocked
Speaker 4: and any type of tragedy like this courses people to
Speaker 4: stop and reflect, and you know, it's just it really
Speaker 4: makes us concerned around when people are carrying out such
Speaker 4: horrific targeted violence against members of the public. We all
Speaker 4: like to feel safe in as though we can go
Speaker 4: about our daily lives, and when that is at threatened.
Speaker 4: That's ultimately what we talk about with terrorism, is that
Speaker 4: it's that impeding on the public to try instill fear
Speaker 4: and often at the you know, the benefit of a
Speaker 4: cause that they're trying to progress, and you know, terrorism
Speaker 4: has a horrific impact on society simply because of the
Speaker 4: fear that it invokes in people.
Speaker 1: The indications here is that this act was targeting the
Speaker 1: Jewish community, and there's been a lot of commentary in
Speaker 1: that on that issue in the media, but there is
Speaker 1: also the police commission that came out very strongly and
Speaker 1: I think appropriately this is not the time to panic.
Speaker 1: This is not the time to know the whole world's
Speaker 1: going to end on this situation. It is a horrendous
Speaker 1: situation and thousands of lives have been impacted on dramatically
Speaker 1: on what has occurred. But do you think that's a
Speaker 1: strong message to put out that this is not the
Speaker 1: time to not a time to panic.
Speaker 4: Look, I think that is really important to reassure people,
Speaker 4: to put it into context. This is probably the sixteenth
Speaker 4: terrorist attack that we've had across Australia and New Zealand
Speaker 4: since twenty fourteen, and the initial one in twenty fourteen
Speaker 4: was Newman Hater when he's stabbed to counter terrorism police
Speaker 4: officers in Melbourne in September, and then a few months
Speaker 4: later we had the Link Cafe siege on December fifteenth.
Speaker 4: So we've slowly been having a consistent number of attacks
Speaker 4: continue and this very much tragically is another one of those.
Speaker 4: But it's also my view, probably representative of that shifting
Speaker 4: landscape that we are seeing that has several underlying issues
Speaker 4: around it which explain why we're seeing this rise in violence.
Speaker 4: But it is important to put it into context. So
Speaker 4: there is a continuation of these attacks, but do see
Speaker 4: that largely our countries are doing a great job at
Speaker 4: preventing this violence.
Speaker 1: I had a fortune to speak to doctor Anne Burgess
Speaker 1: from the FBI that you're familiar with her work from
Speaker 1: mind Hunter days and profiling serial killers, and she indicated
Speaker 1: that the work now they're starting to look at profiling
Speaker 1: the type of people that might commit attacks like this.
Speaker 1: Have you got any comments or thoughts on that is
Speaker 1: a trend in what we should look at in preventing
Speaker 1: crimes of this nature.
Speaker 4: Yeah, look, the research so far said that it's really
Speaker 4: hard to get a profile on these folks because they
Speaker 4: are so broad and varied. And then the moment that
Speaker 4: we think we have it worked out, it then flips
Speaker 4: and changes again. So you know, back in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 4: this started off being all about Islamic inspired violence. Then
Speaker 4: it shifted and it became around things like right wing extremism,
Speaker 4: and then shifted again, and then it became about ideologies
Speaker 4: more broadly that it was about grievances, And now we're
Speaker 4: seeing also the rise of sort of just violence for
Speaker 4: the sake of inflicting violence overseas as well. So it
Speaker 4: constantly evolves. In the moment that we think we have
Speaker 4: a profile, a new trend in, a new pattern emergers.
Speaker 4: There are certain commonalities that we do see, particularly around
Speaker 4: the tendencies to develop grievances the team, and it is
Speaker 4: to become fixated people that are probably reasonably isolated and
Speaker 4: socially disconnected, or that they are failing to really failing
Speaker 4: to really connect socially with others. They often can be
Speaker 4: quite isolated, and then we see also that they've got
Speaker 4: a personality structure where they tend to be folks that
Speaker 4: lack resilience, that struggle to adapt to setbacks and failures
Speaker 4: and become very rigid and stuck on that. And then
Speaker 4: if we fuel that with contagious ideas or extreme content,
Speaker 4: then that can create a really volatile mix. And then
Speaker 4: there's a lack of protective factors in the person's life,
Speaker 4: then that some of the obstacles are removed and positive
Speaker 4: social influencers are not able to guide them onto a
Speaker 4: different path. And that's where violence can start to really
Speaker 4: become reinforced and become an option and a solution for them.
Speaker 1: It's a complex situation. I look back and reflect aka
Speaker 1: what have we seen in Sydney of recent times. Well,
Speaker 1: for the past twelve months, most Sundays there was a
Speaker 1: protest of some form going on and it was people
Speaker 1: with polarizing views. It's right wing, left wing. There was
Speaker 1: protests the main streets of Sydney blocked off virtually every Sunday.
Speaker 1: Is that the type of unrest in an environment that
Speaker 1: people like And we're surmising here because it's very early days.
Speaker 1: People like the two perpetrators who were carried out. This
Speaker 1: act could be fueled by that type of behavior or
Speaker 1: that type of situation occurring in the community.
Speaker 4: Look, it definitely plays a part. I probably term that
Speaker 4: is moral outrage in some ways and the sense that
Speaker 4: is injustice. And when we add that with personality factors
Speaker 4: and the inability to have other positive things in your
Speaker 4: life to the point that that then becomes your sole
Speaker 4: preoccupation and it then becomes comes to define you, becomes
Speaker 4: fused into your identity. This is who I am, this
Speaker 4: is what I stand for, And if I'm not getting
Speaker 4: the response that I want, then I have to go
Speaker 4: harder and louder and push things further. And that's where
Speaker 4: we can end up in what we know is the
Speaker 4: last resort response, where ultimately they perceive that all other
Speaker 4: options have failed and violence is the last resort to
Speaker 4: either bring about change or try and accelerate their position
Speaker 4: and their cause.
Speaker 1: Can you get to that point if someone has been
Speaker 1: identified as having radical ideology, can they be deradicalized? Is
Speaker 1: that if law enforcement identify someone, is that person a
Speaker 1: risk for maternity or is there a way to people
Speaker 1: can be deradicalized in their beliefs.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we tend to move away from deradicalization now and
Speaker 4: look at the mechanics that are underneath the violence or
Speaker 4: the factors that have led them to that, and the
Speaker 4: belief system is a huge part of that. Deradicalization would
Speaker 4: argue that it's ultimately about changing that belief system, but
Speaker 4: we probably would take it a step back even more
Speaker 4: and go, well, how did that develop for that person
Speaker 4: in the first place? So why this person and why now?
Speaker 4: And we would look at, you know, what is it
Speaker 4: about them that's led them to developing this way of thinking.
Speaker 4: And one of the big things that we find is
Speaker 4: that people perceive that they're under threat, that the way
Speaker 4: they want to live their life or their belief system
Speaker 4: is under threat, and when they try and look at
Speaker 4: ways to resolve it and they are ineffective, then they
Speaker 4: view that as a continuation of that threat. And the
Speaker 4: less and less options and the less and less solutions
Speaker 4: that are available to resolve that threat, then violence becomes
Speaker 4: that possibility and that solution. So, like we talked about
Speaker 4: the when we last work around the staircase, you know,
Speaker 4: gradually climb in the staircase and options narrow, and also
Speaker 4: like the bathtub, the more things that get thrown in
Speaker 4: and filling up that bathtub to the point that it
Speaker 4: can no longer contain the water and it tips over.
Speaker 4: And ultimately the active violence comes about.
Speaker 1: The work that you do, and we don't have to
Speaker 1: delve into that too deeply, but the work that you
Speaker 1: do with New Zealand, please, I see that it's a
Speaker 1: growing field that all law enforcement agencies, not just in
Speaker 1: New Zealand Australia, like across the world would benefit by
Speaker 1: having this sort of expertise that you can look at
Speaker 1: and help identify people. Is that a simplistic view or
Speaker 1: something that you would share now, look at is important.
Speaker 4: I think we are increasingly seeing the need for multi
Speaker 4: agency collaboration across these issues. It's too much for police
Speaker 4: to hold on their own, it's too much for other
Speaker 4: agencies to hold on their own. We need to be
Speaker 4: communityting all coming together and making sure we're sharing information
Speaker 4: and getting various expert opinions on the issue and on
Speaker 4: the person, because, as we know, if we siloed in
Speaker 4: this work, that creates huge problems. If we have gaps
Speaker 4: in our knowledge or competence, that also creates big issues
Speaker 4: where we can miss something. And then of course disconnects
Speaker 4: as well. We've got disconnects between various agencies or standoffs
Speaker 4: or hierarchical issues that can also be really problematic. So
Speaker 4: the more that we have a holistic and coherent practice
Speaker 4: between different fields and different agencies psychologists, psychiatrists, police, the
Speaker 4: better we can make more informed decisions around these matters.
Speaker 1: It makes sense the multi agency approach. The media. The
Speaker 1: role of the media and media is coming for some criticism,
Speaker 1: and when you look at what the act of terrorism
Speaker 1: is about is creating, instilling things in the community and that,
Speaker 1: but they have a role, like the media have a role,
Speaker 1: And I was comforted by the way the media approached
Speaker 1: the story in the past or less than twenty four hours,
Speaker 1: providing the information, but also cautioning not to instill too
Speaker 1: much much fear and focusing on Okay, it's contained. We're
Speaker 1: not looking because the initial reports and I'm getting text
Speaker 1: from friends and I'm sure everyone else was getting that
Speaker 1: type of Oh, apparently this is the first of it
Speaker 1: many attacks. There's going to be bombs, there's going to
Speaker 1: be this, and it can just escalate. So there is
Speaker 1: a role for the media to play in situations like this.
Speaker 1: Is that fair to say.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, these attacks are intended to
Speaker 4: create fear and chaos and uncertainty, and the media can
Speaker 4: play a critical role in navigating that. They can stoke
Speaker 4: that and add to add to the chaos and add
Speaker 4: to the fear by sensationalizing things, or can a source
Speaker 4: of information and understanding. And in chaos, people want to
Speaker 4: be able to understand things. They want the information, they
Speaker 4: want to know what that means for them as individuals.
Speaker 4: So the media have a really important role to share
Speaker 4: that information and foster understanding. I think it's also really
Speaker 4: important to make sure that we make it victim focused.
Speaker 4: So one of the things that you know, I'd love
Speaker 4: to see is sharing the stories about the lives of
Speaker 4: the victims. It's so crucial. That's got to be the
Speaker 4: narrative that emerges out of these attacks. Look, we'll get
Speaker 4: information on the perpetrators that will happen in time, but
Speaker 4: you know, there's been several lives that have been lost,
Speaker 4: and that's that's the core of this, and it's ultimately
Speaker 4: about them.
Speaker 1: Nathan, I think that's such a valid, a valid thought
Speaker 1: process on the way the media should play the situation.
Speaker 1: Then that the perpetrators shouldn't be the story shouldn't be
Speaker 1: about perpetrators, because I would imagine that I'm not a
Speaker 1: psychologists obviously, but I would imagine if they got put
Speaker 1: on a pedestal and got no variety in whatever form
Speaker 1: that might feel for vor acts, the perpetrators should be
Speaker 1: virtually forgotten and the focus on the victim. So I
Speaker 1: understand what you're saying there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And of course the people that intervened as well,
Speaker 4: you know, they also had a critical role, So you know,
Speaker 4: I think recognizing that as well, and shifting the narrative
Speaker 4: to being about what we can take away from this
Speaker 4: rather than giving the traction and the time to the individuals.
Speaker 1: Well, we're getting reports and that it will all come
Speaker 1: out due course, but some real acts of bravery and
Speaker 1: the way that people people responded to that, and it
Speaker 1: was a really powerful message from a community, Hey, we're
Speaker 1: not going to take this. I think you mentioned the
Speaker 1: Link Cafe siege and it was almost I think eleven
Speaker 1: years to the day that that occurred, and I felt
Speaker 1: that was almost like Sydney as a community lost its
Speaker 1: innocence and it rocked us to the core. And I
Speaker 1: remember being involved in that in the situation understanding the
Speaker 1: impact it had on the community. We do get desensitized
Speaker 1: to things happening, but I also get the sense the
Speaker 1: nature of what's occurred at Bondai and the manner in
Speaker 1: which it occurred has rocked our sense of who we
Speaker 1: are and what our community is all about. You would
Speaker 1: have experienced it with the christ Church massacre, and I
Speaker 1: think there was in excess of fifty people killed during that.
Speaker 1: How long did it take the community to feel normal
Speaker 1: again and get over the troupe? Well, I won't say
Speaker 1: get over the trauma, because when the situation like that,
Speaker 1: people never get over it. But how long did it
Speaker 1: take the community to move on?
Speaker 4: It was a really difficult thing to probably quantify. I
Speaker 4: think for anyone that that that you know, they're on
Speaker 4: the ground, that are there happens, it can take years,
Speaker 4: if not a lifetime for some people, particularly if they've
Speaker 4: been directly involved in some way. Broadly speaking, you know,
Speaker 4: we know from overseas and even with schools, you know,
Speaker 4: this shapes communities, This shapes lives, which is really unfortunate.
Speaker 4: And again I think it's what can people hopefully make
Speaker 4: from that, and how can they know not that it
Speaker 4: define them over time, but that it does. It just
Speaker 4: takes time for people to grieve and to take the
Speaker 4: care that they need to ensure that they're looking after
Speaker 4: their own well being, and in time, communities do heal.
Speaker 4: But of course, you know, governments have a pretty important
Speaker 4: role to play in that by providing funding and support
Speaker 4: and resources. So it's a whole effort. It takes everyone
Speaker 4: to help people heal and move on from these events,
Speaker 4: but they do have a lasting impact, certainly in the short.
Speaker 1: To moderate term. Okay, well we might leave it here, Nathan,
Speaker 1: thank you for coming on at such short notice and
Speaker 1: talking about the subject. I know both of us wish
Speaker 1: we weren't talking about, but you're insight and some of
Speaker 1: the points that you get across. I think it will
Speaker 1: help people understand what actually has occurred here because it
Speaker 1: is a shock. People are just this doesn't happen in
Speaker 1: our country. Well, it has happened, and it's a wake
Speaker 1: up call to us all. So just putting a little
Speaker 1: bit of context into what's happened, how it happens, why
Speaker 1: it happens, I think will be helpful. So appreciate your time.
Speaker 4: Thanks, Gary, I appreciate you having me on and look.
Speaker 4: Hopefully the conversation can shed some light on what we
Speaker 4: know about the challenges that are before us in this landscape.
Speaker 1: Thanks Nathan