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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to a bonus episode of Ye Catch Killers. This

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Speaker 1: is an episode I wish we weren't having. At the

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Speaker 1: time of recording this episode, there's been a terrorist attack

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Speaker 1: at Bondo Beach less than twenty four hours ago. We

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Speaker 1: don't know exactly what this has happened, but this is

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Speaker 1: what we do know. About six forty five pm on Sunday,

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Speaker 1: the fourteenth of December, two gunmen shot multiple people at

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Speaker 1: Bondo beach. It appears the intended targets were people gathered

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Speaker 1: to celebrate the first day of the Jewish Honiker religious festival.

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Speaker 1: At this stage, one gunman has been killed. The other

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Speaker 1: is in custody and is in a critical condition. But

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Speaker 1: before the gunmen were neutralized by police, they had shot

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Speaker 1: and killed multiple people. At this stage, fifteen innocent people

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Speaker 1: had deceased and there's more than forty people that are

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Speaker 1: in hospital, some of with critical injuries. The incident has

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Speaker 1: been declared a terrorist incident by a New South Wales

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Speaker 1: Police Commission of mal Lanyon, the New South Wales Premier

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Speaker 1: and the Australian Prime Minister has condemned what occurred down there.

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Speaker 1: This truly is a sad day for all of Australia.

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Speaker 1: It's probably the worst terrorist incident we've had on home soil,

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Speaker 1: and my heart go out to all the victims, the

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Speaker 1: people who have lost their lives, their loved ones, the

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Speaker 1: injured people, anyone that was caught up in this senseless violence.

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Speaker 1: This really is a sad day for this country. Peter Moroni,

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Speaker 1: thanks for joining me on I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Welcome.

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Speaker 1: Thanks, Sorry it's in these circumstances and yeah, it's less

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Speaker 1: than twenty four hours since the Bondai massacre, which has

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Speaker 1: been referred to the moment has occurred. I thought i'd

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Speaker 1: get you back on the podcast because of your expertise

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Speaker 1: in counter terrorism. You're a counter terrorist detective for a

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Speaker 1: very long time and worked on some major investigations with

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Speaker 1: the New South Wales Police and the work that doing

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Speaker 1: since retiring from the police is very much in keeping

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Speaker 1: with that. I just want to get your thoughts. So

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Speaker 1: the purpose of the podcast here is to give people

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Speaker 1: an understanding. I think we've all been shocked what we

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Speaker 1: started to witness on a Sunday afternoon, hot summer's night

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Speaker 1: in Sydney where we're all settling down the phone star's pinging,

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Speaker 1: or if you're listening to the media, you're starting to

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Speaker 1: get at reports of the gunman or shots fired. That

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Speaker 1: was the first thing I heard, shots fired down in Bondi.

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Speaker 1: I thought a bit strange, but that didn't realize the

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Speaker 1: significantance of it. Then I got a text from my

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Speaker 1: daughter dad, have you seen what's going on in Bondi?

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Speaker 1: And that made me switch on the media and get

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Speaker 1: a sense of it. When did you find out about it?

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Speaker 2: Probably most people made I am monster.

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Speaker 3: I was having a beer at a maze place and

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Speaker 3: I've got a text I was one of the media

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Speaker 3: out there's actually and I just thought, I doesn't it's

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Speaker 3: not real. Yeah, it should be all right sort of thing,

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Speaker 3: or perhaps you know, not to downplay, but perhaps another

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Speaker 3: gang related shooting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that's going on.

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Speaker 3: But as you say, the phone lit up and didn't

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Speaker 3: stop so and then you started to scroll through social

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Speaker 3: media and in came the links and got sent through

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Speaker 3: a few videos and there it started to resonate, and

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Speaker 3: you know, probably like a lot of people. Mate, you know,

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Speaker 3: we've been around for a little bit of time. But

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Speaker 3: I think the first thing was anger at just a

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Speaker 3: cowardness of what I was seeing on the video. Anger

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Speaker 3: was probably the first thing that stayed in my mind

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Speaker 3: for about an hour.

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Speaker 1: Just the random nature of it. You know, we've both

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Speaker 1: been in the police. We understand the power of firearms

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Speaker 1: and the damage they can do, and seeing long long

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Speaker 1: arms being used in the area like Bondai Beach on

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Speaker 1: a Sunday afternoon, that anger is probably a natural reaction

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Speaker 1: to it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, look at.

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Speaker 3: Not any probably different to any other bloke that's been

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Speaker 3: out of the cops now, but you still resonate and

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Speaker 3: understand that kind of act and what that type of

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Speaker 3: act is going to do obviously not only physical to

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Speaker 3: the people that are being shot, but the emotional issues

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Speaker 3: that are going to torment those victims, the victims families

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Speaker 3: and no doubt the first responders as well. Mate, that

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Speaker 3: there's a lot left over after that first shot rings out.

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Speaker 1: My understanding is it's the biggest a terrorist incident in

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Speaker 1: Australia on home soil. Would that be fair to say

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Speaker 1: that's it?

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Speaker 3: Certainly as I understand it that at this point in time,

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Speaker 3: as you and I speak, I understand there is sixteen

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Speaker 3: people that have unfortunately passed away up to forty that

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Speaker 3: are injured. There is no other and it's been called

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Speaker 3: for what it is. It's been called the Terrorist Act

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Speaker 3: and it would certainly have to be well, it is

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Speaker 3: the biggest terrorist based incident in Australia has ever seen

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Speaker 3: to date.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're hoping we're going to avoid that. With

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Speaker 1: your expertise in counter terrorism, you understand the consequences of

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Speaker 1: when something like this can occur and the efforts that

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Speaker 1: and I know you've been involved in some investigations where

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Speaker 1: this type of thing has been prevented on large scales.

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Speaker 1: What's your sense or how difficult it is for police

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Speaker 1: to prevent these type of type of attacks.

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Speaker 3: It's a really tough question to answer. If I could

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Speaker 3: put it in the most simplest terms and explain it

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Speaker 3: is that law enforcement and Asia have dropped the ball.

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Speaker 3: And what I mean by that, respectfully, is that we

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Speaker 3: have sixteen people at this point in time dead from

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Speaker 3: a terrorist related incident. It's something that's going to come

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Speaker 3: to the forefront. And Commissioner Mallennion is an exceptionally smart man,

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Speaker 3: Mike Burgess equally, so they know those questions are going

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Speaker 3: to come.

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Speaker 2: How easy is it to stop?

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Speaker 3: It's probably a question that I struggle to probably give

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Speaker 3: you an answer because it depends on who is the individual,

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Speaker 3: Are they connected to a particular other individual, particular cell,

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Speaker 3: particular certain faith, how much bridge we've got over those people.

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Speaker 3: So a whole lot of things come in, like people

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Speaker 3: just think that you could pick this person up and

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Speaker 3: there's a bit of a trend happening and we can

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Speaker 3: target them. And I think back to the first podcast

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Speaker 3: we did when I try to explain a lot around terrorism.

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Speaker 3: Is your breadcrumbs are gone, like you know, your indicators

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Speaker 3: are gone generally, So I have no doubt we'll trawl

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Speaker 3: over the next twelve months now and unpack those individuals'

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Speaker 3: lives and unpack the connections and all of those certain things.

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Speaker 3: But to try to go a long way around answer

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Speaker 3: real simple question for you, it's very difficult to prevent,

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Speaker 3: particularly now in terms of the ability for them to

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Speaker 3: communicate across multiple social media platforms, which buries it underground

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Speaker 3: even harder. It's still a lot still to come out

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Speaker 3: at the moment, whether these guys were part of a

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Speaker 3: greater grip or were they self radicalized and operating on

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Speaker 3: their own. If that is the latter is the case,

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Speaker 3: and it's going to be very difficult because it's just

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Speaker 3: a father and son.

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Speaker 1: It's like there's two of them, but it's almost the

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Speaker 1: lone actor. Just there happens to be two of them,

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Speaker 1: and the relationship between the father and son there might

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Speaker 1: be one as a power and the other one is

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Speaker 1: a follower who knows what's happened? Was I watched and

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Speaker 1: you know, I was glued to seeing what had occurred.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was good messaging from the police. I

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Speaker 1: thought Mount Lanyon hit the points at such an early

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Speaker 1: early stage in the investigation, and yeah, if mistakes were made,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not saying saying they were with identified, I

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Speaker 1: think our response to this type of situation has improved

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Speaker 1: since the Linked cafe, and that was eleven years ago.

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Speaker 1: I thought there was and I was involved in that.

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Speaker 1: There was a little bit of chaos around that, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of lessons were learned, I think, sadly in

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Speaker 1: recent times. The BONDI the stabbings taught again about about

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Speaker 1: the response. Watching from the outside, What did you take

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Speaker 1: away from the response by emergency services, not just police,

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Speaker 1: ambulance and everyone else that was heavily involved.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it's you're right, you know that.

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Speaker 3: It's as sad as those past events are, we do

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Speaker 3: learn from them, and as you know, you take those

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Speaker 3: learnings and you plug them back into your operating procedures

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Speaker 3: to try to tighten those and go on. I've had

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Speaker 3: a couple of different pieces of commentary come at me

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Speaker 3: over the last six or so hours talking about the

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Speaker 3: police response, and I understand from what I've been told

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Speaker 3: that it was nine minutes from the first shot to

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Speaker 3: the last shot being fired. When they're killed or one

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Speaker 3: of them are killed a lot. Now the other argument

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Speaker 3: as well, the police are on the updrate, or there

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Speaker 3: were police working operationally at the time.

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Speaker 2: What I'd like.

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Speaker 3: To try to get across is that if I am

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Speaker 3: out there operating as a police officer, they will certainly

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Speaker 3: hear those shots. But I've spoke to people this morning

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Speaker 3: that was on the beach yesterday coming out of the surf,

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Speaker 3: and I was talking to one particular lady and she

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Speaker 3: said to me that she first thought it was fireworks

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Speaker 3: that was going off, and then it kicked in to

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Speaker 3: go what's daytime? Yeah, that doesn't that doesn't compute. And

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Speaker 3: then it's so she said to herself, well, it sounds

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Speaker 3: like a gun. And I said, how long did it

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Speaker 3: take it to actually resonate to go it is a gun?

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Speaker 2: She has minute and a half.

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Speaker 3: So I say that in that it's that idyllic Sunday

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Speaker 3: afternoon and no one's anticipating it. Now, let's look at

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Speaker 3: the police perspective, right, is they are there on the beach,

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Speaker 3: or they are on route, they would be getting bombarded

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Speaker 3: with multiple reports of a shooter or shooters. Yep, I

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Speaker 3: would have no doubt there, But it would have been

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Speaker 3: confusion about the number of shooters that were active. There

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Speaker 3: would have been absolutely confusion, I would imagine around the

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Speaker 3: type of weapon and why that becomes important. Go is

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Speaker 3: you know, is it am I driving into someone with

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Speaker 3: a pistol a clock for example? On my driving into

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Speaker 3: as it was into someone who's got a long arm

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Speaker 3: that we've seen there from the footage that one of

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Speaker 3: the fellows had on. One of the rifles had a scope,

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Speaker 3: so that can obviously be designed to pick you off

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Speaker 3: from a greater distance. So all of these things are

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Speaker 3: going through the police's mind in terms of where they're

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Speaker 3: going to park, where they're going to pull up, the

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Speaker 3: offenders are on the go, how do they get across

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Speaker 3: to them? And I've seen footage of a young female

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Speaker 3: constable that was sort of leapfrogging up the side of

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Speaker 3: the cars to get out one of the offenders. It's overall,

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Speaker 3: you know, people can say, well, it's a police's job,

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Speaker 3: that's what you signed up to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it is, and.

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Speaker 3: Don't why not, don't argue that, but you know, look,

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Speaker 3: they still leaped into the fire. From all of the

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Speaker 3: evidence that I've seen, they still went at it. Knowing

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Speaker 3: full well that they could pay, and there's two police

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Speaker 3: that are being injured, and they did what they had

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Speaker 3: to do. And I think to date, unless anyone can

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Speaker 3: come forward with any other suggestion of any other behavior

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Speaker 3: by the cops, I think they've done a hell of

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Speaker 3: a job. Now, is the nine minutes a long time?

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Speaker 2: It would be.

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Speaker 3: It is if you're sitting out there getting shot at.

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Speaker 3: But compound that to the police, because if the police

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Speaker 3: come in hard and fast and get taken out in

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Speaker 3: the first few minutes, no help to anyone.

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Speaker 2: They haven't achieved anything, nothing at all.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the way you described that there outlines

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Speaker 1: the complexity of what happens in the situation like that.

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Speaker 1: Hindsight's a wonderful thing. We're all experts in the hindsight.

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Speaker 1: We did make improvements, I think improvements, and I think

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Speaker 1: that was generated from incidents that happened in the United States.

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Speaker 1: We're active shooter and the response to police. It's not

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Speaker 1: contained in the gachet that's not sealed off bondai and

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Speaker 1: wait till the tactical police there. If it's an active shooter,

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Speaker 1: the police role is to go in and finish the threat,

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Speaker 1: to stop the stop the threat. Yeah, your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: that is the way that we've got to respond because

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Speaker 1: it's a different world in the scope that we live

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Speaker 1: in now, isn't it. The active shooter response is the

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Speaker 1: appropriate response.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Look, you know, and if we rewinder our clock back

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Speaker 3: a little bit, is that our traditional container negay shape.

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Speaker 3: It always comes off the back end of what's say

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Speaker 3: a bank robbery gone wrong, whether they might have been

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Speaker 3: sche masked up or their identities are hidden. So if

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Speaker 3: I'm hiding my identities, I come in to do a crime,

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Speaker 3: I've got the intention to get away with it and

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Speaker 3: move on. The first thing that resonates with those two

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Speaker 3: shooters from yesterday as soon as you see that first picture,

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Speaker 3: no attempt to cover up their identity. So what that

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Speaker 3: tells you from the outset is I am here. I'm

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Speaker 3: here to cause as much death and mayem as I

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Speaker 3: possibly can, and the only way it's going to stop

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Speaker 3: is when you shoot me. Because I haven't covered their identity,

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Speaker 3: they don't care.

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Speaker 1: There was no plan escape.

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Speaker 2: They were going to go and go until they died.

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Speaker 1: From your experience in countert rorism, and we talked before

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Speaker 1: we started recording about the magnitude of the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: You were down there this morning, so yeah, less than

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Speaker 1: twelve hours after the event. What was your takeaway from that?

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Speaker 2: Then?

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Speaker 1: How big is the crime scene we're looking at?

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Speaker 2: That's huge.

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Speaker 3: It's Bread's entire length of the beach. Now whilst people

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Speaker 3: you know, a couple of reporters that I said to me,

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Speaker 3: why is the entire Campbell Parade basically raped off? Going

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Speaker 3: all the way down to the far left of Campbell

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Speaker 3: Parade is where I believe the vehicle was with the ied,

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Speaker 3: So the bomb squad we're working down there. Coming up

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Speaker 3: a little bit to that bridge is where the main

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Speaker 3: main fatalities were. It's heavily saturated with evidence, as one

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Speaker 3: would imagine. But in terms of why do you rape

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Speaker 3: off the entire rest of it, it's purely because as

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Speaker 3: people are running, they're victims, potentially they're dropping evidence as

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Speaker 3: they go at that relevant time, you know, mate, in

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Speaker 3: terms of homicide crime scenes, far better I've got one go, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm far better. I mean to go out and secure

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Speaker 3: everything I practically can secure. And as you know, we

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Speaker 3: as we work that crime scene and we get more

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Speaker 3: information and intelligence coming about the particular crime we're looking

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Speaker 3: at that crime scene will come in a little bit,

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Speaker 3: but it's it's big. It was very somber this morning.

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Speaker 3: There was each corner. I had all of the various

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Speaker 3: major press outlets. It's a bit of a who's who

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Speaker 3: of morning TV so to speak down there. There was

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Speaker 3: pleasantries explain exchange between each of them, but it was

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Speaker 3: a very somber mood.

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Speaker 1: It hits the psyche of a city like Sydney and

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Speaker 1: the country for that matter, that it's widespread with the

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Speaker 1: actual crime scene and the era. And you mentioned the IED,

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Speaker 1: so have you got there. What's the latest update on that,

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Speaker 1: because there was a suggestion and what we're talking about

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Speaker 1: improvised explosive devices and there was concerns that they were

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Speaker 1: around around the era.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand.

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Speaker 3: My last piece of information around that is that there

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Speaker 3: was two found in the vehicle that they drove in

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Speaker 3: are there are two IEDs that have been since disarmed,

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Speaker 3: but they were to be ignited via a ignition so

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Speaker 3: ignited via a wick. So what that would sort of

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Speaker 3: generally suggest is that quite clearly it's light it and

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Speaker 3: throw it.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: I understand from a thing was from the press conference

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Speaker 3: that was put out by Commissioner Onnion that they were

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Speaker 3: found in the vehicle and disarmed. Now why they didn't

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Speaker 3: come out and why they didn't get used or who

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Speaker 3: will never know, but they weren't.

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Speaker 1: And that's another consideration for police too on this. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to justify or whatever with police action,

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Speaker 1: but coordinating off the scene. It wouldn't be the first

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Speaker 1: time that the terrorist side has happened and then they're

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Speaker 1: waiting for a secondary attack where people have come in.

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Speaker 3: It's you know, it's the methodology of them. And there's

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Speaker 3: numerous attacks around around the world that are happened, and

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Speaker 3: what they'll often be is that, yes, the initial terrorist

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Speaker 3: act has occurred, and what will be staged around that

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Speaker 3: area are other potential offenders or other vehicles that are

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Speaker 3: stoked with IEDs. Then the point around that could be twofold.

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Speaker 3: It'll be one the initial chaos will occur and people

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Speaker 3: will run and spread and then so the device can

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Speaker 3: be activated to take them out. Or more traditionally, how

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Speaker 3: it's been used in the past is we know law

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Speaker 3: enforcement will come in on mass and that second device

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Speaker 3: and even sometimes a third device is designed to take

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Speaker 3: out those first responders.

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Speaker 1: Again drawing on your experience working in counter terrorism. The

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Speaker 1: strike force that's been set up to investigate this, well,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine that it's huge. Who will that involve,

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Speaker 1: what sort.

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Speaker 3: Of It's a great question. It will involve everyone. So

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Speaker 3: probably as you know, if you remember back to your day,

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Speaker 3: that there is a particular strike force that set up,

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Speaker 3: there's already pre planned tasks set in there, of course,

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Speaker 3: but they'll grow as we go, but pre planned points

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Speaker 3: of responsibilities. Obviously, State crime will come in, will be

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Speaker 3: led by the counter Terrorism Coordination Command which is will

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Speaker 3: essentially be run by what we call the Joint counter

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Speaker 3: Terrorism Commands and involve the AFP and the New South

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Speaker 3: Wales Police supported by State Crime and LAC Local Area

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Speaker 3: Command detectives. But look, it's no secret Asia are going

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Speaker 3: to be there. They're going to plug that information in

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Speaker 3: New South Wales Crime Commission will be there in their

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Speaker 3: capacity and as I understand that, the AFP everybody started

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Speaker 3: to play a number of tactical resources into the area

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Speaker 3: as well. If there's needs, surveillance will continue and that

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Speaker 3: will come in from probably all around the state and

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Speaker 3: act I'd.

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Speaker 1: Imagine, Okay, so multi multi agencies, the other thing that

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Speaker 1: very early in the after the incident that Commissional Lenion

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Speaker 1: declared the Terrace incident. What's the significance of that and

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Speaker 1: what does a commissioner need to declare it the terrace incident.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the main significance around it is it's it allows

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Speaker 3: him to identify, for example, a particular area might help him.

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Speaker 3: Let him identify a particular description of a person or

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Speaker 3: a vehicle, for example, and basically say I'll make this

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Speaker 3: up here as an example, and put a blanket over

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Speaker 3: a particular postcode, or put a blanket over a certain

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Speaker 3: streat or certain aspects of a suburb, and say anything

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Speaker 3: contained in there is subject now to the powers. And

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Speaker 3: that could be stop, search and detain, It could be

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Speaker 3: go into the house and do what we need to do.

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Speaker 3: It could be removal of your phone. So they'll be

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Speaker 3: very broader power. So in the days where for example,

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Speaker 3: we might have needed to say a search oneant, you know,

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Speaker 3: we've got to go through the Affidavid process up into

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Speaker 3: the courts, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: With these powers, it basically.

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Speaker 3: Becomes an automatic go do what you need to do

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Speaker 3: in accordance with that legislation. So it frees them up

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Speaker 3: drastically to do that, and to do that he actually

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Speaker 3: stepped that out on his press release last night, and

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Speaker 3: it was just a matter of getting a true understanding

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Speaker 3: that the crime itself was connected or likely to be

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Speaker 3: connected to an act of terrorism.

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Speaker 2: He said.

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Speaker 3: He was set aside of that very quickly and acted

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Speaker 3: those powers. And those powers are why you saw that sift,

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Speaker 3: swift response last night.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the other premises that were I think

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Speaker 1: it was from Brig were executed warrants or gained entry

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Speaker 1: into the premises.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so they did that and that's what enables you

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Speaker 3: to do because as you can imagine, what we're trying

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Speaker 3: to do, he is move very swiftly to prevent either

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Speaker 3: the loss or destruction of evidence, but also to get

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Speaker 3: ahead of capturing if there's any potential known offenders out there.

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Speaker 3: And it just allows for a very swift response as

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Speaker 3: opposed to going through what we might have to normally

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Speaker 3: go through with warrants, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, understood. With the situation, the way it's occurred and

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Speaker 1: the police response in the lead up to this, there's

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Speaker 1: been a lot, i'd describe, and Sydney based, there's been

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Speaker 1: a lot of discontent within the community. There's been protests

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Speaker 1: Someday afternoon, there was multiple protests for the past six

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Speaker 1: months or even longer. Do you think that fuels an

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Speaker 1: environment where this type of thing can happen, where there's ideology,

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Speaker 1: is very strong ideologies and people have strong, strong views.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think if I said I know it's had

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Speaker 3: no impact, I think I'd be lying. When when you

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Speaker 3: see what we see play out over the last six months,

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Speaker 3: and everyone I've spoke to from much like yourself made

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Speaker 3: is when unfortunately something like this happens, is you jump

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Speaker 3: on the old network and there's a number of stories

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Speaker 3: been exchanged. But when you've got that type of rehtoric

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Speaker 3: being pushed out there, or that one particular point of

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Speaker 3: view being pushed out there, and here's a ver this

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Speaker 3: has put to me about half an hour ago before

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Speaker 3: I come on in. In terms of the right wing

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Speaker 3: extremist protests, we saw absolutely opponent. Don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 3: I understand as a South African fellow deported from the

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Speaker 3: country within days. Yet let's look at the other side.

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Speaker 3: Let's look at the protests that have been run. Let's

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Speaker 3: look at the permitted mass flags, which is a terrorist

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Speaker 3: organization that have been permitted to fly.

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Speaker 2: Let's look at.

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Speaker 3: The disproportionate response in terms of let that walk.

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Speaker 2: We're going to cut that one off at the knees

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Speaker 2: and push it out.

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Speaker 3: If we're going to do this properly and in the

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Speaker 3: most polite terms as I can put it. You're in Australia.

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Speaker 3: We have our culture, we have our laws, we have

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Speaker 3: our rules. No different if you and I went overseas

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Speaker 3: to any particular country. The first thing we do is

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Speaker 3: we are bid by their laws, their rules, their customs.

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Speaker 3: Now they have avoided by our rules in the sense

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Speaker 3: that they protested, and they protested lawfully. But the vast

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Speaker 3: number of mixed messages that it's being sent out is

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Speaker 3: here we have rightly. So this fellow on the right

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Speaker 3: wing extremism South African at that point protested in silence,

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Speaker 3: deported and not saying he shouldn't have been. But let's

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Speaker 3: go the other way. We've got supporters of Hermas flying

439
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 3: a flag they celebrate a year to the date of

440
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 3: the attacks in Israel. How on earth does that even

441
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 3: balance itself? It doesn't, So should we now expect to

442
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 3: see either Well, clearly, the individual that's still alive. He's

443
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 3: going to obviously stand trial. But what about now if

444
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 3: we find and we cast the net a bit wider

445
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 3: and we start to find now people that may be

446
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 3: aided are bettered in some description.

447
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 2: Are we going to punt them?

448
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,959
Speaker 3: Are we going to deport them out of the country

449
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 3: back to where they come from?

450
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 2: That'll be a key question.

451
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a different situation because it's a complex situation.

452
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: I look at this and when you've got ideologies one

453
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: extreme side and the other extreme side. And I think

454
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: it was Dave Gore, our Good Mates made based on

455
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: his book, a former counter terrace operator but also an academic,

456
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: and talking about when the right wing rises, you like

457
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: starting to be a concern to law enforcement. You don't

458
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 1: just have to concentrate on the right wing because the

459
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 1: left wing will rise together. What I got the sense of,

460
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: and I'm no expert in this field, but what I

461
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: got the sense of in this city there was such

462
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 1: strong polarizing views. And what you're talking about is how

463
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: does law enforcement deal with that? Do you deal with

464
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: it across the board? The thing that saddens me about

465
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 1: this mostly is it looks like a particular group was targeted,

466
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 1: but it's our whole community, how society has been targeted

467
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: when we're bringing this. And I think we lived in

468
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: a world perhaps naively because I know you and I speaking,

469
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 1: and it didn't surprise us that this has happened, and

470
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: other people involved in the world a little bit in

471
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: detail hasn't come as a surprise. But we felt like

472
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: we were different and this is sort of showing that

473
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: we're not different and this type of violence can impact

474
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: on us.

475
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, look at you know, it's sad.

476
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: You know, like I hear on the radio at times

477
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 3: and people saying to me, you know that this is

478
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,239
Speaker 3: not the Australia that we knew. You know, this is

479
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 3: not the Australia we grew up with. Well it's not.

480
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 3: We've changed as a country. The world's changed for that matter,

481
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 3: and sometimes not for the better. It doesn't mean we

482
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 3: have to accept it though, But you know, this is

483
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 3: where that defining moment now is is well, what are

484
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 3: we going to do about this as a nation? What

485
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 3: is the rhetoric and the tone and the stance that

486
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 3: our government is now going to take. Where's the line

487
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,479
Speaker 3: in the sand that people can't cross now? And how

488
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 3: are we going to.

489
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: Enforce that we're not immune to it.

490
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 3: No we're not, mate, No, look we're not at all.

491
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 3: And you know, because people move to this country and

492
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 3: irrespective of where they're from, they don't check their world

493
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 3: problems at customs. Those problems come with them over the border.

494
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 3: Now I'm not saying before I get shouted down about

495
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 3: multiculturalism and all these things. I had a lot of

496
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 3: great mates Italians, Greeks, Vietnamese, Chinese, whatever you're like, a

497
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 3: lot of great mates. Immigration has done a lot for

498
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 3: this country. Multiculturalism has done a lot for this country.

499
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 3: But at the same token, you cannot expect to open

500
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 3: your gates bring in a million plus people in the

501
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 3: last three years and go to them. Come, but just

502
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 3: check all your baggage at customs and don't bring that

503
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 3: with you. It's not logic, it's not going to happen.

504
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 3: Those problems will come. So the problems will come. Now

505
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 3: now it's an issue on back on law enforcement, back

506
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 3: on the government of New Southward Australia to actually turn

507
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 3: your head around and go it is now foreseeable that

508
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 3: these problems will come over the border. These problems are

509
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 3: going to come to our shores. What do we do

510
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 3: big conversation, but you've got to have it.

511
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: Well, it is a big conversation, and it's very divisive,

512
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: like just having that conversation that polarizes people just offering

513
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: an opinion that way, Maybe we need to all take

514
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: a step back and have a balanced conversation where we're

515
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 1: not it's not such an inflammatory comments that just escalate.

516
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: Because that's what's worried me in this environment. I've just

517
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: felt like it's almost like it was inevitable the way

518
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: this was building up.

519
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that was certainly.

520
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 3: And it's funny, you know, I've spoke to a few

521
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 3: people today and they've all said the same thing. You know,

522
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 3: they could feel that powder cake just coming and coming

523
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 3: and coming, and I was just going to be a

524
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 3: matter of time. And I totally concur with you, mate,

525
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 3: that right now is not the time to respond. Yeah,

526
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 3: by all means. And what I mean is sure, we're

527
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: going to respond to what we're dealing with. We're going

528
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 3: to put some measures in place. Absolutely we'll do that,

529
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 3: but let's take a step back. Let's do what we

530
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 3: can do now for the victims. Let us do what

531
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 3: we can do for the community or bondai for the

532
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 3: Jewish community for the greater Austrayian community. Then when we're measured,

533
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 3: let's start talking some real talk.

534
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: Make the decisions. Yeah, I also I can't help but

535
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: think it plays into it. Then we can reference the

536
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: father and son per betrayers, put them in the category

537
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: of a lone actor. But mental health issues come into this.

538
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: So it's multi layered, isn't it multi layer in terms

539
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: of what sets a person off? And you've made a

540
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: very valid point. The moment they turn up and they're

541
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: not mass they're not covering their face, they had no

542
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: escape plan that was they were going to shoot it

543
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: out until someone shot them.

544
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, and you make a very good point.

545
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 3: There may too in that if we had this conversation

546
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: maybe say ten years ago trip we would be traditionally

547
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 3: then talking Islamic terrorism, because that's what our main concern

548
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 3: was back in the day. But to your very valid point,

549
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 3: we are now dealing with right wing, left wing take

550
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 3: your pick of any other letters that were floating around

551
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 3: out there. But also it's now about the mental health

552
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 3: aspect that's floating out We saw that probably kicking out

553
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 3: of Bondai at Westfields obviously as a bit of a

554
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 3: central piece. So now all of that gets wrapped up

555
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 3: into the powder kick and it's about then the responding

556
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 3: police showing up to go well, which particular issue am

557
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: I actually trying to confront versus just trying to deal

558
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 3: with what they're dealing with. So there's so much and

559
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 3: I speak to a lot of police that their work

560
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 3: through mental health and attending to mental health crisis has

561
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 3: phenomenally gone through the roof. There's several clients that I've

562
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 3: got that I do reviews for based on the violence

563
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 3: to their staff from mental health patience. It's driving it

564
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 3: through the roof. It's driving those sorts of issues that

565
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 3: are impacting, as you rightly say, made an impacting not

566
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 3: only at a policing level, but at a society level

567
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 3: and someone and someone the flow and effect goes.

568
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: One thing that I have always seen in policing that

569
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: when incidents occur, we improve our practices. And that's not

570
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: even drawing any inference to the response or the lead

571
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: up to this matter. That's something that we played out

572
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: over the next twelve months with all the investigations going.

573
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: But we learn when we first started going after serial killers,

574
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: we're a naive in the way that that was approached,

575
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: I'd like to think, and I just want to understand

576
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: if you agree with it. I'd like to think whatever

577
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: happens from this, the response by the police, not just

578
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: a response to an incident, preparing for an incident and

579
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: preventing incident will improve.

580
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and that comes for a lot of your

581
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 3: listeners that we know what's going to come is obviously

582
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 3: going to be the criminal side of the house for

583
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: the shooter that's left, but the larger coronial part that

584
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 3: will come and it's often out of those coronial reviews

585
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 3: go as you know, is that it will look at,

586
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 3: for example, process procedure and communications. Was there any failures

587
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 3: on the policing side, Is there any additional advancement on

588
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 3: equipment that could be given into the police, And they

589
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 3: will look at a bit of a root cause analysis

590
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 3: around what else may have contributed, and that'll be multi layered.

591
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,959
Speaker 3: But you're right, the whole point around that is then

592
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 3: the current is going to make unthane recommendations to the

593
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 3: police and then the police will take that. They will

594
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 3: then fine tune our procedures again and off we go,

595
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 3: and the old container negotiates the perfect example that's how

596
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 3: we always.

597
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: Thought it was done.

598
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: Then it's shown to not that's retard the way we

599
00:31:58,720 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: want it.

600
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 3: It doesn't work in terror of situations, so that it's

601
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 3: it's been refined and now we've now we're dealing with

602
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:05,239
Speaker 3: what we deal with.

603
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, I totally would agree that.

604
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 3: A complete hooless bolus assessment of what went right and

605
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 3: what went wrong will come and then flowing on for

606
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: that will be procedural shifts.

607
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: And what about the role of the public in these

608
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: situations too? That the intel that we get from police,

609
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: We've got creative ways of getting the intel, but a

610
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: large part of it is from information provided to the

611
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: public from the public, and it might be considered the

612
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: throw away line that this type of information should be

613
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: passed on the law enforcement. Would that be.

614
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's in a not too dissimilar approach. I talked

615
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 3: to a lot of schools around active armed defenders, and

616
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 3: what we talked to them about is there's been various

617
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 3: studies done, for example, overseas, and interview has done of

618
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 3: either teachers or students that were made aware of some

619
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 3: threats being made by the eventual perpetrators, and they were

620
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: interviewed and they were interviewed in terms of all if

621
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 3: you knew something, what in you say something? And the

622
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 3: common adage of you know, I didn't think it was real.

623
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 3: I didn't think they were serious. I didn't think it

624
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 3: would happen here. I didn't want to be a snitch,

625
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 3: and I didn't want to cause any problems or float.

626
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: And as I can probably say to that.

627
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: Is, leave that to the police.

628
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 3: Report it because you don't know what one simple piece

629
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 3: of your puzzle is. But when I match it against

630
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 3: the other two, three, four, five pieces of information that

631
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 3: I actually also have, as you know, our puzzle becomes

632
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 3: a bigger picture, and now we can put some reliant,

633
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: some credibility on this thing and start to attack it properly.

634
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 3: In that sense, So I know it's you know, if

635
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 3: you see say something, say something, but please, by all

636
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: means don't. You're not going to cause any headache to

637
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 3: the police. That's the job.

638
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: Get us the information and let them make that the police.

639
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: Prefer to have that information. I think it's also important

640
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: what you touched on about focusing on the victims, the

641
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: people who have been impacted upon. I'm a big believer

642
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: in don't give any airtime to the perpetrators, and they're

643
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: not dying as saviors or martyrs. That they're cowards and

644
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: it's the most cowardly thing you can do to attack.

645
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 3: In this absolutely, and you may not ever notice. But

646
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: if I ever do an interview, I'll never mentioned the

647
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 3: name of the offender.

648
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: Ever.

649
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 3: I don't want that person doesn't have the right to

650
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 3: have their name reference to all, whether they're alive or dead.

651
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 3: And it would be my wish that the media.

652
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 2: Black it out.

653
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, go simon on them. Just call them the offender

654
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 3: or whoever will pick another word, but don't reference their name.

655
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: Well, not this simmer lesser scale, but still the consequences

656
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: on the coward punch, just changing the narrative. It's not

657
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: a king hit. It was a coward punch. Absolutely, these

658
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: are coward cowardly attacks. But look, a lot's going to

659
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:02,439
Speaker 1: come out from from what happened response, looking at the individuals,

660
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: the emergency services, the police response, the community response. It

661
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 1: made you made you proud.

662
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it did.

663
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 4: You know.

664
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 3: I went down to Bondaio this morning, as I said,

665
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 3: and you'll know what I mean, And you walk down

666
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 3: there and knowing full well that as you step around

667
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 3: this corner. What was here twelve hours ago? It was

668
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: It's Bondai. It was a Sunday afternoon. It was full

669
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 3: of life, it was full of happiness, it was full

670
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 3: of laughter. It was silent. It was just eerily silent.

671
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: All of us.

672
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 3: There were were media, there was a few onlookers that

673
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 3: came out at night. The we'll often probably hear about police, police, police,

674
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: but the ambulance officers, fire and rescue officers, the ses

675
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 3: that played the part.

676
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: The lifeguards at Bondai.

677
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 3: I spoke to one this morning who was still having

678
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 3: difficulty coming to grips with what they saw. But you're right,

679
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 3: you know that, I think, no matter what we go

680
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 3: through in Australia, that will always stand up and take

681
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 3: on whatever it is we've got to take on. But yeah,

682
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 3: it's all of those first responders. You know, they should

683
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: stand proud, they should stand tall, and as you and

684
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 3: I have spoken about before, once the does settles, if

685
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 3: you need to help go and get it.

686
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, definitely, because I think there's going to be

687
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: a lot of people affected by what they've experienced in

688
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: this this incident. First responders, life savers, the the ambos,

689
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 1: all the doctors, the nurses in the in the hospital,

690
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: but also members of the public like acts of bravery

691
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: that that dude that's grabbed the blake with the rifle.

692
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: Good on him, you know.

693
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: Just phenomenal, wasn't it.

694
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 3: You know that he had that option to stay where

695
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,280
Speaker 3: he was, He did not have to step out into

696
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 3: the fray, so to speak, but he did it, and

697
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 3: you know, good on him.

698
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: And they're the ones that we do.

699
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 3: So I mean that that is at the top echelon

700
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 3: of someone who's done it. But I suspect Gays you

701
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 3: you will know made it over when we start to

702
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: hear these stories unpack a little bit more, there's going

703
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 3: to be so many little stories like that that that

704
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 3: drift out, and it'd be it'd be awesome that those

705
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 3: stories reach reach the light and we get to hear about.

706
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: And that when you call it a terror sack, that

707
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: hits back at terrorist going you're not going to break us.

708
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: And I think that's a good way to approach.

709
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 3: It, absolutely, And we've got to stay on that focus

710
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 3: and we've got to stay in that direction and just

711
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 3: show that you can come, you can do what you're

712
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 3: going to do, but we're not going to change we're

713
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:22,479
Speaker 3: not going to bow down.

714
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for coming on so early in the piece.

715
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: And I know you've you've spoken to quite a few people,

716
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: but that's your your expertise, and I think it's important

717
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: to have this discussion too. I think people need to

718
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: understand what's behind all this, how the response is because

719
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: other other than that, like you've had a phone call

720
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: from an elderly relative that just in mad panic, thinking

721
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: the you know the world's going to stop as yeah,

722
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,439
Speaker 1: the incidents and they see how it plays out on TV.

723
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: I thought mal Lanyon made a point and I think

724
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: also the Premier made a point that let's not live

725
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: in a heightened, heightened state of fear. This is something

726
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: that we're in place, we can deal with, we can

727
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: manage it. We will manage it. And I think I

728
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 1: heard two of them say we're going to come no

729
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: stone unturned, and that's the way an investigation like this

730
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: will be approached.

731
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and it has to be, doesn't it. You

732
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 3: know that we've got a good, bad or ugly. Whether

733
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 3: that stone yields something that perhaps shows what the police

734
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 3: may or as may have missed, we'll have to deal

735
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 3: with that. But the public had got to have confidence

736
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 3: at the moment. Let's face it that the public confidence

737
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 3: may not be see behind in the sense of going, well,

738
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 3: he told us to trust you, and how did this

739
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 3: actually even happen?

740
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: I get that.

741
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 3: What we've got to hold on to now is let

742
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 3: them get the job done. Then there will come that

743
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 3: time to ask questions. And for whatever is worth from

744
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 3: an ex detective to your listeners is we've got to

745
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 3: step up now and have an actual, real conversation about

746
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 3: the real issues that are occurring now in this country. Yes,

747
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 3: influence from what he's over over the other side of

748
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,399
Speaker 3: the world, but let's have that conversation. Let's turn those

749
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: rocks over good, bad, ugly or indifferent, and then let's

750
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 3: find a solution to would be would be my guidance?

751
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: Well good, good way to finish after speaking to you,

752
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: I'm also speaking to Nathan Brooks as psychologist from New

753
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: Zealand Police and he's had a lot of experience and

754
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: sort of delving into the mindset of these laying actor

755
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: types and the difference between a mass killing and a

756
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 1: terrorist act. But I think these are all the things

757
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 1: that we've got to discuss so we understand what we're doing. Yeah,

758
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: let's hope we're not having this conversation again again soon.

759
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: It's good to see him, but good.

760
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 2: To see thanks for having me in Yeah, taking the time.

761
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: Cheers, Thank you, doctor Nathan Brooks. Thanks for joining me

762
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: on I Catch Killers.

763
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 4: It's good to talk again, Gary, And unfortunately it's under

764
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 4: very tragic circumstances.

765
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,439
Speaker 1: Yeah. As much as I enjoyed talking to you last time,

766
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: I was hoping we wouldn't be talking this recent after

767
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: you last appeared on I Catch Killers, but the recent

768
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: events less than twenty four hours ago. It's a situation

769
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: that we've all dreaded. It's a horrible situation, but I

770
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: thought we'd get a bit of an understanding. Prior to

771
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: speaking to you, I spoke to a counter terrorism expert

772
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: from New South Wales. What I'd like to talk to

773
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: you about is getting an understanding of the type of

774
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 1: people that might commit an offense like this. Now, I

775
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 1: fully understand we're in the very early stages of it

776
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: and all the information hasn't come out, but it's been

777
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: declared a terrorist attack by our the New South Wales

778
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: Police Commissioner mal Lanyon very early in the piece declared

779
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: the terrorist attack. I know. When I last spoke to you,

780
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: we talked about the difference between terrorist attacks and a

781
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: spree or rampage killing. The fact that our commissioner has

782
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: come out very early and called it a terrorist attack,

783
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: what does that tell you in your expertise?

784
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 4: You look at my cavit garre before I start that,

785
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 4: I'm affiliated with various agencies and I'm here on my

786
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 4: own volition and not representing any of those today. But

787
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 4: when we talk about terrorism, we're really talking about an

788
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 4: act that is socially or politically motivated, and there is

789
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 4: the intent to try and create change and foster fear

790
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 4: and even try and accelerate those social and political motivations

791
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 4: for the cause. That is underneath or underlying the intention

792
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 4: and the motivation of the offending.

793
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 1: The fact that it's happened at Bondi Beach. Leaning into

794
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: the terrorist side of things. If there's one location that's

795
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: iconic with Sydney, Australia, it's Bondi Beach and worldwide attention

796
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: that's a well known location. Is that something that is

797
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: often part of the act of terrorism. To make sure

798
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: that we create that situation where people are aware of

799
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: what's occurred, I.

800
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 4: Think in general. When we look at loan actor attacks,

801
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 4: which at this stage this appears to fit into is

802
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 4: people target will choose targets that will bring a lot

803
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 4: of casualties, a lot of attention, that can be quite

804
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 4: symbolic at times as well. But they are in some ways,

805
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 4: I guess, heavy patroned areas that allow people to ultimately

806
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 4: maximize the casualties. And that's why we see things like

807
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 4: schools being targeted and are they heavily patron areas where

808
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 4: they are able to within a matter of minutes inflict

809
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 4: a high level of often lethal harm.

810
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: You referred to it as a loan actor event, and

811
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: our understanding this stage, very early stages. It was a

812
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: father and son. The fifty year old father was killed

813
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: during the police operation and the son is in custody

814
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: but in a critical condition, is my understanding at this

815
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,240
Speaker 1: point in time. What does that tell you and why

816
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: do we refer to it as loan actor when there's

817
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 1: more than one perpetrator involved.

818
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 4: We have seen self initiated acts of violence over the years,

819
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 4: such as the Columbine attack over in the US, where

820
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 4: it can occasionally be in diads or triads or small

821
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 4: groups of individuals that come together. The will and Billa

822
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 4: shooting in Queensland's probably another case where we had family

823
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 4: members that were involved as well. So when we have

824
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 4: more than one or two people or a couple of

825
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 4: people coming together, we can still call it load actor.

826
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 4: So these are individuals that are basically self initiated and

827
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 4: acting on their own volition rather than at the direction

828
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 4: of others or such as a terrorist group. So often

829
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 4: we think about it as just this self initiated movement

830
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 4: towards violence. And obviously we'll get more information as the

831
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 4: weeks go on around whether there were greater connections abroad

832
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 4: or even locally in New South Wales for instance, But

833
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 4: at the moment the information seems to suggest this is

834
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 4: self initiated a.

835
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,439
Speaker 1: Father and son. To me, we're talking to ideology when

836
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 1: the terrorist aack occurs, generally it's acting on that ideology.

837
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: Does tell you anything about the family environment. The fact

838
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: that the father and son won the Schums were of

839
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 1: the same belief in same ideology and wanted to take

840
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: such extreme action.

841
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 4: Well, family relationships and dynamics can be very powerful and influential,

842
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 4: can't they. And it reminds me in some ways of

843
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 4: the belt Away or DC sniper shooting case that we

844
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,879
Speaker 4: had with John Muhammad who was forty one and Lee

845
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 4: Malvo who was a seventeen year old. And Muhammad took

846
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 4: Malvo under his wings and they had a somewhat of

847
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 4: a father's son relationship, and he indoctrinated and coerced Malvo

848
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 4: into carrying out the series of shootings which occurred over

849
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 4: several months across the DC area.

850
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: I look at this as a mass shooting, terrorist attack

851
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: as it's been defined. How do we prevent that? Now

852
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: that's a very broad broad question, but we're looking at

853
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: everyone's got beliefs ideologies, where those ideologies become extreme and

854
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: when they start to act on the ideologies, how can

855
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: that be? Police still prevent it? And I know you

856
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: can speak from experience you work with the Enz police,

857
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,439
Speaker 1: you had the christ Church massacre. Things like that. They're

858
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: very hard. I'm looking at it from a former police

859
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: officer's point of view, It's very hard to prevent this.

860
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, I think the recipe, or a simple analogy

861
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 4: in some ways, is that being aggrieved loads the gun.

862
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 4: Then we have the person becoming fixated and psychologically preoccupied

863
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 4: and that aims it. And then from there we do

864
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 4: the development of extremely overvalued beliefs and overweighted ideas then

865
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 4: pulls the trigger. So it's a simple way to think

866
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 4: about things. But we're talking about a series of processes

867
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 4: that occurs for the person and that evolves over time.

868
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,240
Speaker 4: Potentially in this case, we're talking about that dynamic between

869
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 4: two people and how that's transpired and potentially one may

870
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 4: have a more dominant influence on the other, but ultimately

871
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 4: talking about the evolution and evolvement of that process. And

872
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 4: then when we think about prevention, we think about how

873
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 4: do we identify that in the early stages, when there

874
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 4: are grievances, when there are indicators of psychological preoccupation. How

875
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 4: do we get an intervention in there when that is developing,

876
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,959
Speaker 4: rather than at the point when the dials are so

877
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 4: dialed up that we're simply hoping that we get lucky

878
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 4: by receiving information that someone's days away from carrying out attacks.

879
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 4: So we really need to be looking at the markets early.

880
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 4: And we've spoken before about the brilliant role that Fixated

881
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 4: Threat Assessment Center's played in this space around the triaging

882
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 4: and allocating a support and resources for the folks. So

883
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 4: we have great systems in place, But of course people

884
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 4: can operate in isolation, as we know with self initiative folks,

885
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 4: and that creates enormous challenges in the information doesn't get

886
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 4: out and doesn't flow.

887
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: I think when we spoke before, one of the things

888
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 1: that we encourage was community support. If anyone's acting behavior,

889
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: their behavior is that little bit strange, that report it

890
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: to authorities and bring it to their attention. Would you

891
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: reinforce that?

892
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 4: Absolutely? You know, communities are at the heart of policing,

893
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 4: and that information is as small or irrelevant as it

894
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 4: may seem. Sharing that with another family member, another friend,

895
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 4: getting a different perspective is really crucial because they might

896
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 4: be able to provide context around why they think it's concerning,

897
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 4: and that then might allow another door to open and

898
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 4: eventually share that information and again get it to the

899
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 4: right people, even if it's community workers or culturally ais

900
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 4: on people that are able to have the conversations and

901
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 4: potentially shed some light on what might be going on.

902
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: And I suppose that small piece of information could be

903
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: the critical piece of information. It just adds to the

904
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzle when you're trying to put these things together.

905
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:20,240
Speaker 4: Absolutely, we know in these cases internationally generally between fifty

906
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 4: to ninety percent have leakage, and leakage is ultimately someone

907
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 4: talking to another person where they express their intent to

908
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 4: carry out an active harm. So again, in a case

909
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 4: like this, without jumping to conclusions, we need to think

910
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 4: about what could the role of leakage been in something

911
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 4: like this.

912
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 1: And that leakage could be what could be considered an

913
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: idle threat, Oh, this person's going to get together one day,

914
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: they're going to get what's coming to them, that type

915
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: of thing. But that leakage is what my interpretation of

916
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: what you're saying there, that potential indicator this is an

917
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: action they might actually carry out.

918
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 4: So you know, it might be something as simple as

919
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 4: saying to a friend that you know, I'm going to

920
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 4: go and make sure that I carry out justice and

921
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 4: revenge for this cause.

922
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: What was the reaction over in New Zealand? Because New

923
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 1: Zealand then itself has been touched by massacres even on

924
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: the larger scale than.

925
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 4: This, I think, like anywhere in the world, everyone's shocked

926
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 4: and any type of tragedy like this courses people to

927
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 4: stop and reflect, and you know, it's just it really

928
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 4: makes us concerned around when people are carrying out such

929
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 4: horrific targeted violence against members of the public. We all

930
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 4: like to feel safe in as though we can go

931
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 4: about our daily lives, and when that is at threatened.

932
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 4: That's ultimately what we talk about with terrorism, is that

933
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 4: it's that impeding on the public to try instill fear

934
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 4: and often at the you know, the benefit of a

935
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 4: cause that they're trying to progress, and you know, terrorism

936
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 4: has a horrific impact on society simply because of the

937
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 4: fear that it invokes in people.

938
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 1: The indications here is that this act was targeting the

939
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: Jewish community, and there's been a lot of commentary in

940
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: that on that issue in the media, but there is

941
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: also the police commission that came out very strongly and

942
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: I think appropriately this is not the time to panic.

943
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: This is not the time to know the whole world's

944
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: going to end on this situation. It is a horrendous

945
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: situation and thousands of lives have been impacted on dramatically

946
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 1: on what has occurred. But do you think that's a

947
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: strong message to put out that this is not the

948
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 1: time to not a time to panic.

949
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 4: Look, I think that is really important to reassure people,

950
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 4: to put it into context. This is probably the sixteenth

951
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 4: terrorist attack that we've had across Australia and New Zealand

952
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:54,320
Speaker 4: since twenty fourteen, and the initial one in twenty fourteen

953
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 4: was Newman Hater when he's stabbed to counter terrorism police

954
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 4: officers in Melbourne in September, and then a few months

955
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 4: later we had the Link Cafe siege on December fifteenth.

956
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 4: So we've slowly been having a consistent number of attacks

957
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 4: continue and this very much tragically is another one of those.

958
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 4: But it's also my view, probably representative of that shifting

959
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 4: landscape that we are seeing that has several underlying issues

960
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 4: around it which explain why we're seeing this rise in violence.

961
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 4: But it is important to put it into context. So

962
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 4: there is a continuation of these attacks, but do see

963
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 4: that largely our countries are doing a great job at

964
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 4: preventing this violence.

965
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 1: I had a fortune to speak to doctor Anne Burgess

966
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: from the FBI that you're familiar with her work from

967
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: mind Hunter days and profiling serial killers, and she indicated

968
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: that the work now they're starting to look at profiling

969
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 1: the type of people that might commit attacks like this.

970
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 1: Have you got any comments or thoughts on that is

971
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: a trend in what we should look at in preventing

972
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: crimes of this nature.

973
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, look, the research so far said that it's really

974
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 4: hard to get a profile on these folks because they

975
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 4: are so broad and varied. And then the moment that

976
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 4: we think we have it worked out, it then flips

977
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 4: and changes again. So you know, back in twenty fourteen,

978
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 4: this started off being all about Islamic inspired violence. Then

979
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 4: it shifted and it became around things like right wing extremism,

980
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 4: and then shifted again, and then it became about ideologies

981
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 4: more broadly that it was about grievances, And now we're

982
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 4: seeing also the rise of sort of just violence for

983
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 4: the sake of inflicting violence overseas as well. So it

984
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 4: constantly evolves. In the moment that we think we have

985
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 4: a profile, a new trend in, a new pattern emergers.

986
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 4: There are certain commonalities that we do see, particularly around

987
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,400
Speaker 4: the tendencies to develop grievances the team, and it is

988
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:05,399
Speaker 4: to become fixated people that are probably reasonably isolated and

989
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 4: socially disconnected, or that they are failing to really failing

990
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 4: to really connect socially with others. They often can be

991
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 4: quite isolated, and then we see also that they've got

992
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 4: a personality structure where they tend to be folks that

993
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 4: lack resilience, that struggle to adapt to setbacks and failures

994
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 4: and become very rigid and stuck on that. And then

995
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 4: if we fuel that with contagious ideas or extreme content,

996
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 4: then that can create a really volatile mix. And then

997
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 4: there's a lack of protective factors in the person's life,

998
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 4: then that some of the obstacles are removed and positive

999
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 4: social influencers are not able to guide them onto a

1000
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 4: different path. And that's where violence can start to really

1001
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 4: become reinforced and become an option and a solution for them.

1002
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:01,399
Speaker 1: It's a complex situation. I look back and reflect aka

1003
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 1: what have we seen in Sydney of recent times. Well,

1004
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 1: for the past twelve months, most Sundays there was a

1005
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: protest of some form going on and it was people

1006
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: with polarizing views. It's right wing, left wing. There was

1007
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: protests the main streets of Sydney blocked off virtually every Sunday.

1008
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: Is that the type of unrest in an environment that

1009
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,280
Speaker 1: people like And we're surmising here because it's very early days.

1010
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: People like the two perpetrators who were carried out. This

1011
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: act could be fueled by that type of behavior or

1012
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 1: that type of situation occurring in the community.

1013
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 4: Look, it definitely plays a part. I probably term that

1014
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 4: is moral outrage in some ways and the sense that

1015
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 4: is injustice. And when we add that with personality factors

1016
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 4: and the inability to have other positive things in your

1017
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 4: life to the point that that then becomes your sole

1018
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 4: preoccupation and it then becomes comes to define you, becomes

1019
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 4: fused into your identity. This is who I am, this

1020
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 4: is what I stand for, And if I'm not getting

1021
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,399
Speaker 4: the response that I want, then I have to go

1022
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:14,280
Speaker 4: harder and louder and push things further. And that's where

1023
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 4: we can end up in what we know is the

1024
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,919
Speaker 4: last resort response, where ultimately they perceive that all other

1025
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 4: options have failed and violence is the last resort to

1026
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,720
Speaker 4: either bring about change or try and accelerate their position

1027
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 4: and their cause.

1028
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: Can you get to that point if someone has been

1029
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: identified as having radical ideology, can they be deradicalized? Is

1030
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: that if law enforcement identify someone, is that person a

1031
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 1: risk for maternity or is there a way to people

1032
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 1: can be deradicalized in their beliefs.

1033
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, we tend to move away from deradicalization now and

1034
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 4: look at the mechanics that are underneath the violence or

1035
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 4: the factors that have led them to that, and the

1036
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 4: belief system is a huge part of that. Deradicalization would

1037
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:06,839
Speaker 4: argue that it's ultimately about changing that belief system, but

1038
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 4: we probably would take it a step back even more

1039
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 4: and go, well, how did that develop for that person

1040
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,320
Speaker 4: in the first place? So why this person and why now?

1041
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 4: And we would look at, you know, what is it

1042
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 4: about them that's led them to developing this way of thinking.

1043
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 4: And one of the big things that we find is

1044
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 4: that people perceive that they're under threat, that the way

1045
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 4: they want to live their life or their belief system

1046
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,879
Speaker 4: is under threat, and when they try and look at

1047
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 4: ways to resolve it and they are ineffective, then they

1048
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 4: view that as a continuation of that threat. And the

1049
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 4: less and less options and the less and less solutions

1050
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 4: that are available to resolve that threat, then violence becomes

1051
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,240
Speaker 4: that possibility and that solution. So, like we talked about

1052
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 4: the when we last work around the staircase, you know,

1053
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 4: gradually climb in the staircase and options narrow, and also

1054
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 4: like the bathtub, the more things that get thrown in

1055
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 4: and filling up that bathtub to the point that it

1056
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 4: can no longer contain the water and it tips over.

1057
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 4: And ultimately the active violence comes about.

1058
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 1: The work that you do, and we don't have to

1059
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: delve into that too deeply, but the work that you

1060
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 1: do with New Zealand, please, I see that it's a

1061
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 1: growing field that all law enforcement agencies, not just in

1062
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: New Zealand Australia, like across the world would benefit by

1063
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: having this sort of expertise that you can look at

1064
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 1: and help identify people. Is that a simplistic view or

1065
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 1: something that you would share now, look at is important.

1066
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 4: I think we are increasingly seeing the need for multi

1067
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 4: agency collaboration across these issues. It's too much for police

1068
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 4: to hold on their own, it's too much for other

1069
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 4: agencies to hold on their own. We need to be

1070
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 4: communityting all coming together and making sure we're sharing information

1071
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 4: and getting various expert opinions on the issue and on

1072
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 4: the person, because, as we know, if we siloed in

1073
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 4: this work, that creates huge problems. If we have gaps

1074
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 4: in our knowledge or competence, that also creates big issues

1075
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 4: where we can miss something. And then of course disconnects

1076
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 4: as well. We've got disconnects between various agencies or standoffs

1077
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 4: or hierarchical issues that can also be really problematic. So

1078
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 4: the more that we have a holistic and coherent practice

1079
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 4: between different fields and different agencies psychologists, psychiatrists, police, the

1080
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 4: better we can make more informed decisions around these matters.

1081
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 1: It makes sense the multi agency approach. The media. The

1082
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: role of the media and media is coming for some criticism,

1083
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: and when you look at what the act of terrorism

1084
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: is about is creating, instilling things in the community and that,

1085
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: but they have a role, like the media have a role,

1086
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 1: And I was comforted by the way the media approached

1087
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 1: the story in the past or less than twenty four hours,

1088
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: providing the information, but also cautioning not to instill too

1089
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 1: much much fear and focusing on Okay, it's contained. We're

1090
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,959
Speaker 1: not looking because the initial reports and I'm getting text

1091
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 1: from friends and I'm sure everyone else was getting that

1092
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: type of Oh, apparently this is the first of it

1093
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: many attacks. There's going to be bombs, there's going to

1094
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: be this, and it can just escalate. So there is

1095
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 1: a role for the media to play in situations like this.

1096
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 1: Is that fair to say.

1097
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, these attacks are intended to

1098
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 4: create fear and chaos and uncertainty, and the media can

1099
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 4: play a critical role in navigating that. They can stoke

1100
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 4: that and add to add to the chaos and add

1101
00:59:56,240 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 4: to the fear by sensationalizing things, or can a source

1102
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 4: of information and understanding. And in chaos, people want to

1103
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,960
Speaker 4: be able to understand things. They want the information, they

1104
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,959
Speaker 4: want to know what that means for them as individuals.

1105
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 4: So the media have a really important role to share

1106
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 4: that information and foster understanding. I think it's also really

1107
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 4: important to make sure that we make it victim focused.

1108
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 4: So one of the things that you know, I'd love

1109
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 4: to see is sharing the stories about the lives of

1110
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 4: the victims. It's so crucial. That's got to be the

1111
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 4: narrative that emerges out of these attacks. Look, we'll get

1112
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 4: information on the perpetrators that will happen in time, but

1113
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 4: you know, there's been several lives that have been lost,

1114
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 4: and that's that's the core of this, and it's ultimately

1115
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 4: about them.

1116
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 1: Nathan, I think that's such a valid, a valid thought

1117
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 1: process on the way the media should play the situation.

1118
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: Then that the perpetrators shouldn't be the story shouldn't be

1119
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: about perpetrators, because I would imagine that I'm not a

1120
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: psychologists obviously, but I would imagine if they got put

1121
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 1: on a pedestal and got no variety in whatever form

1122
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,920
Speaker 1: that might feel for vor acts, the perpetrators should be

1123
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 1: virtually forgotten and the focus on the victim. So I

1124
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 1: understand what you're saying there.

1125
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, And of course the people that intervened as well,

1126
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 4: you know, they also had a critical role, So you know,

1127
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 4: I think recognizing that as well, and shifting the narrative

1128
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 4: to being about what we can take away from this

1129
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 4: rather than giving the traction and the time to the individuals.

1130
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 1: Well, we're getting reports and that it will all come

1131
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 1: out due course, but some real acts of bravery and

1132
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 1: the way that people people responded to that, and it

1133
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 1: was a really powerful message from a community, Hey, we're

1134
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: not going to take this. I think you mentioned the

1135
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 1: Link Cafe siege and it was almost I think eleven

1136
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: years to the day that that occurred, and I felt

1137
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 1: that was almost like Sydney as a community lost its

1138
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 1: innocence and it rocked us to the core. And I

1139
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 1: remember being involved in that in the situation understanding the

1140
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 1: impact it had on the community. We do get desensitized

1141
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 1: to things happening, but I also get the sense the

1142
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 1: nature of what's occurred at Bondai and the manner in

1143
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 1: which it occurred has rocked our sense of who we

1144
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 1: are and what our community is all about. You would

1145
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: have experienced it with the christ Church massacre, and I

1146
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 1: think there was in excess of fifty people killed during that.

1147
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: How long did it take the community to feel normal

1148
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 1: again and get over the troupe? Well, I won't say

1149
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: get over the trauma, because when the situation like that,

1150
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 1: people never get over it. But how long did it

1151
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: take the community to move on?

1152
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 4: It was a really difficult thing to probably quantify. I

1153
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 4: think for anyone that that that you know, they're on

1154
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:02,200
Speaker 4: the ground, that are there happens, it can take years,

1155
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 4: if not a lifetime for some people, particularly if they've

1156
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 4: been directly involved in some way. Broadly speaking, you know,

1157
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 4: we know from overseas and even with schools, you know,

1158
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 4: this shapes communities, This shapes lives, which is really unfortunate.

1159
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 4: And again I think it's what can people hopefully make

1160
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 4: from that, and how can they know not that it

1161
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 4: define them over time, but that it does. It just

1162
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 4: takes time for people to grieve and to take the

1163
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 4: care that they need to ensure that they're looking after

1164
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 4: their own well being, and in time, communities do heal.

1165
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 4: But of course, you know, governments have a pretty important

1166
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 4: role to play in that by providing funding and support

1167
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 4: and resources. So it's a whole effort. It takes everyone

1168
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 4: to help people heal and move on from these events,

1169
01:03:55,960 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 4: but they do have a lasting impact, certainly in the short.

1170
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 1: To moderate term. Okay, well we might leave it here, Nathan,

1171
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: thank you for coming on at such short notice and

1172
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 1: talking about the subject. I know both of us wish

1173
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 1: we weren't talking about, but you're insight and some of

1174
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: the points that you get across. I think it will

1175
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 1: help people understand what actually has occurred here because it

1176
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 1: is a shock. People are just this doesn't happen in

1177
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,160
Speaker 1: our country. Well, it has happened, and it's a wake

1178
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:31,360
Speaker 1: up call to us all. So just putting a little

1179
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 1: bit of context into what's happened, how it happens, why

1180
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 1: it happens, I think will be helpful. So appreciate your time.

1181
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 4: Thanks, Gary, I appreciate you having me on and look.

1182
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 4: Hopefully the conversation can shed some light on what we

1183
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 4: know about the challenges that are before us in this landscape.

1184
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 1: Thanks Nathan