WEBVTT - Is Qantas sorry – or just sorry it got caught?

0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:10.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to seven AM. This week,

0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:13.920
<v Speaker 1>seven Am spoke with former Corners chief executive Alan Joyce

0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:17.400
<v Speaker 1>as a return to public life with a memoir defending

0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:20.079
<v Speaker 1>many of the decisions he made during his final years

0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:23.040
<v Speaker 1>at the airline. Joyce said the company was fighting for

0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.599
<v Speaker 1>survival during the pandemic and that while mistakes were made,

0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.479
<v Speaker 1>the difficult decisions taken under his leadership were necessary to

0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:34.840
<v Speaker 1>keep Quanters from going under. Today we revisit our conversation

0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:38.519
<v Speaker 1>with journalists and author Joe Aston, recorded after Connas was

0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:42.400
<v Speaker 1>handed a record ninety million dollar penalty for illegally outsourcing

0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:46.400
<v Speaker 1>eighteen hundred workers. It asked what those decisions cost, if

0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.360
<v Speaker 1>they were really necessary, and whether the airline has actually

0:00:49.440 --> 0:01:01.160
<v Speaker 1>changed since Joyce's departure. It's Sunday, August two. This episode

0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:03.959
<v Speaker 1>was originally published in August twenty twenty five.

0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.160
<v Speaker 2>So Joe, thank you for joining me on zevn Am

0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:12.160
<v Speaker 2>My Pleasure. On Monday, Contus was ordered to pay a

0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:17.200
<v Speaker 2>ninety million dollar fine for illegally sacking eighteen hundred workers

0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.959
<v Speaker 2>back during the pandemic, and in delivering his judgment, Justice

0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:25.240
<v Speaker 2>Mike Auley called Contus the wrong kind of sorry, So

0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.320
<v Speaker 2>tell me what you made of his comments and of

0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:28.760
<v Speaker 2>the decision more broadly.

0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:31.520
<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean, I've been watching this case for a

0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:34.360
<v Speaker 3>long time. It's been a marathon. The first try, the

0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.920
<v Speaker 3>actual original liability trial, was in twenty twenty one, in

0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:39.040
<v Speaker 3>the middle of lockdowns.

0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.840
<v Speaker 2>Federal Court will decide whether Quantus acted illegally when it

0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:45.440
<v Speaker 2>sacked hundreds of Melbourne ground crew and.

0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.880
<v Speaker 3>Gave their jobs to a cheaper contractor the unionit You know,

0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.120
<v Speaker 3>then Quantus had lost that case and then appealed straight

0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:51.800
<v Speaker 3>to the Full Court.

0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:55.000
<v Speaker 2>The Federal Court found the decision to outsource about two

0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:59.720
<v Speaker 2>thousand groundworkers was in breach of the Fair Worked Act Towns.

0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.520
<v Speaker 3>They lost that case in twenty twenty two, and then

0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:04.280
<v Speaker 3>they appealed straight to the High Court and they lost

0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:05.680
<v Speaker 3>that case in twenty twenty three.

0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:12.280
<v Speaker 4>The Court has dismissed unanimously Quantus's appeal. It now stands

0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:17.800
<v Speaker 4>their actions against these Quantus families as the largest sacking

0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.160
<v Speaker 4>in Australian corporate.

0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:22.520
<v Speaker 3>History, who were sent back to the Federal Court to

0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:26.400
<v Speaker 3>decide on the compensation that they should pay to those workers,

0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:28.560
<v Speaker 3>and that was decided in twenty twenty four that they

0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:30.880
<v Speaker 3>should pay one hundred and twenty million dollars. Quantus has

0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:32.760
<v Speaker 3>been forced to pay more than one hundred and twenty

0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.120
<v Speaker 3>million dollars in compensation to workers whose jobs were legally

0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:40.040
<v Speaker 3>outsourced during the pandemic about eighteen Only now in twenty

0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.160
<v Speaker 3>twenty five have they been hit with their penalties. Quantas

0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:47.880
<v Speaker 3>has just been fined ninety million dollars for illegally sacking

0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:51.960
<v Speaker 3>eighteen hundred groundstaf five years ago. It's just been sort

0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:57.240
<v Speaker 3>of this incremental debacle unfolding, which Quantus until the very

0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:01.079
<v Speaker 3>last minute was fighting. Even when they lost in the

0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:03.920
<v Speaker 3>High Court, that then chairman of Quantus, Richard Gouter, was

0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.359
<v Speaker 3>dismissing the ruling of the court and saying, well, look,

0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:12.440
<v Speaker 3>we had sound commercial reasons for that decision. Justice Lee

0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.520
<v Speaker 3>was quite brilliant in pointing out how completely silly that

0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.880
<v Speaker 3>argument is. Of course they had sound commercial reasons. I mean,

0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:20.720
<v Speaker 3>what kind of an outsourcing would it have been if

0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.480
<v Speaker 3>they didn't have sound commercial reasons. It was just a

0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.560
<v Speaker 3>bizarre reasoning that they were offering. You know, we engaged

0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:28.840
<v Speaker 3>in illegal behavior because it made us money. Now that

0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:32.519
<v Speaker 3>doesn't make it okay, So it wasn't just the illegal outsourcing.

0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.200
<v Speaker 3>It was the way they conducted themselves even when they

0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.120
<v Speaker 3>were found to have done the wrong thing by a

0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:41.480
<v Speaker 3>court afterwards. And Justice Lee also this is one of

0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.400
<v Speaker 3>the big reasons why he didn't believe that they were

0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.880
<v Speaker 3>really sorry. Only last year in twenty twenty four, Quantus

0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:52.120
<v Speaker 3>was arguing in the compensation hearings that the workers should

0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.600
<v Speaker 3>get zero dollars of compensation. That was actually the argument

0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.040
<v Speaker 3>being put to the court by Quantus, that the workers

0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.160
<v Speaker 3>should not get any compensation at all. That's obviously not

0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.680
<v Speaker 3>an argument that it suggests a company that is feeling

0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:06.240
<v Speaker 3>contrite about its wrongdoing.

0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.560
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so we had the company at least initially arguing

0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:13.240
<v Speaker 2>that there should be no compensation for workers. They have

0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:16.159
<v Speaker 2>now been ordered to pay a ninety million dollar fine.

0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:18.760
<v Speaker 2>So let's talk about that for a moment. How does

0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:22.080
<v Speaker 2>that amount compare with what Quantus wanted versus what the

0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:22.880
<v Speaker 2>union wanted.

0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:28.039
<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, I mean the fine itself is staggering, by far,

0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.120
<v Speaker 3>the biggest fine ever imposed on a company for a

0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.160
<v Speaker 3>breach of general protections under the Act. The last highest

0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:39.200
<v Speaker 3>ever was ten million dollars against the Commonwealth Bank for

0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.960
<v Speaker 3>an underpayment issue that went over a decade. The fine

0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.240
<v Speaker 3>is generally paid to the party that is bringing the case,

0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.839
<v Speaker 3>and usually that party is a fair work combodsman who

0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.920
<v Speaker 3>prosecutes breaches of the Act by employers. But of course

0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.719
<v Speaker 3>in this case, the ombodsman was fast asleep and the

0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.000
<v Speaker 3>union decided to take the action itself. And that's why

0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.040
<v Speaker 3>it's really unusual about this. That's such a huge amount

0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.960
<v Speaker 3>of money is being paid to the union.

0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.600
<v Speaker 2>Right and so so does that money then go from

0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:10.719
<v Speaker 2>the union to the workers? Have they said how to

0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:11.320
<v Speaker 2>be divvied up?

0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.200
<v Speaker 3>So the penalties, ninety fifty of that goes to the

0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.640
<v Speaker 3>union and then the other forty will go to the

0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.640
<v Speaker 3>workers on top of one hundred and twenty million that

0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.320
<v Speaker 3>they were already getting in compensation. But you know, if

0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.800
<v Speaker 3>you look at how many workers were illegally sacked, there's

0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.360
<v Speaker 3>eighteen hundred. It Actually, you know, this is not sort

0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.160
<v Speaker 3>of life changing money for people who've lost their livelihoods.

0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:36.400
<v Speaker 3>The forty million dollars split eighteen hundred ways, that's only

0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.520
<v Speaker 3>twenty two thousand dollars per person. So for someone who's

0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:43.560
<v Speaker 3>lost a long term, a good paying blue collar job,

0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.760
<v Speaker 3>that's not going to get them over line.

0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.640
<v Speaker 2>And it's been a year now since Quantus announced that

0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.359
<v Speaker 2>it was slashing Allan Joyce's payout by almost ten million,

0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.880
<v Speaker 2>and that was partly because of his handling of this.

0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.680
<v Speaker 2>And at the time, Quantus knowledge the harm that had

0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.640
<v Speaker 2>been done to their reputation, particularly with their customers, and

0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.400
<v Speaker 2>they commissioned a review to tell them how to fix it.

0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:11.120
<v Speaker 2>So what did that review end up saying and has

0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.400
<v Speaker 2>the company implemented any changes?

0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:15.640
<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, well the review was damning and the review

0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.080
<v Speaker 3>found that Quantus had a terrible culture and it had

0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.080
<v Speaker 3>a board that was too weak to challenge the CEO,

0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:25.440
<v Speaker 3>Alan Joyce, And this case the legal sackings was one

0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:26.920
<v Speaker 3>part of it. But you know, you remember there was

0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.240
<v Speaker 3>also the ghost flights, the issue of COVID credits and

0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.680
<v Speaker 3>the way customers were really poorly treated by those There

0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.440
<v Speaker 3>was a huge amount of price gouging. There's a massive

0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:42.680
<v Speaker 3>suite of issues that were affecting quantus reputation. Now, what

0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:47.039
<v Speaker 3>has actually changed a lot of that is sort of

0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:49.640
<v Speaker 3>at the surface level. I think it's fair to say

0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.920
<v Speaker 3>that Quantus under Vanessa Hudson is a company more focused

0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.880
<v Speaker 3>on its customers and on its staff than it had

0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.719
<v Speaker 3>been previously. But you know, does it still the highest

0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.479
<v Speaker 3>possible faares that it can on routes where there's not

0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:08.800
<v Speaker 3>very much competition? Absolutely? Does it still invest insufficiently in

0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:15.480
<v Speaker 3>new aircraft to improve the experience and reliability for its customers. Absolutely,

0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.920
<v Speaker 3>you know, and also, by the way, to reduce the

0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:24.080
<v Speaker 3>impact on the environment. So Quantus has changed its bedside manner.

0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:26.119
<v Speaker 3>I think that's fair to say, and that's not nothing.

0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.800
<v Speaker 3>That's an important thing. But if you look deeply, Quantus

0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.160
<v Speaker 3>is still a very aggressive company.

0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.280
<v Speaker 2>Right, so the underlying strategy might not have changed even

0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.280
<v Speaker 2>though Joyce is out of the picture. So what ongoing

0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.040
<v Speaker 2>benefits does Joyce get as a result of the time

0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:41.800
<v Speaker 2>that he spent there.

0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.320
<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean, you know, he made one hundred and

0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.600
<v Speaker 3>thirty million dollars a CEO of Quantus. That's pretty good

0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.480
<v Speaker 3>coin if you can get it. And he's got a

0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.320
<v Speaker 3>golden ticket. It's like the one they give you in

0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.880
<v Speaker 3>Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, except instead of instead of

0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.880
<v Speaker 3>unlimited chocolate, it's unlimited first class flights for life.

0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.160
<v Speaker 2>After the break. What Quantus says it's learned and what

0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:13.760
<v Speaker 2>its profits really show Joe Quantus for the past year

0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.480
<v Speaker 2>has been run by Vanessa Hudson. So tell me a

0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.400
<v Speaker 2>bit more about her and how she's approached her role.

0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:19.680
<v Speaker 1>SOFA.

0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Well, Vanessa Hudson's even more of a Quantus lifer

0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.160
<v Speaker 3>than Alan Joyce in that she started at the company.

0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.080
<v Speaker 3>I think it was almost her second job in the

0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.640
<v Speaker 3>audit department, which is a very exciting place as you

0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:36.120
<v Speaker 3>can imagine, in nineteen ninety four, in her twenties, and

0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:39.040
<v Speaker 3>has worked right across the company. When I worked at

0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:43.280
<v Speaker 3>Quantas in the late two thousands, she was running customer

0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.000
<v Speaker 3>product and service inflight product and service when the airline

0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:50.520
<v Speaker 3>received its first day three eighties, and then she's gone

0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:55.160
<v Speaker 3>and run the American division of Quantus. She came back

0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.640
<v Speaker 3>and was chief Customer Officer briefly and then became the

0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.160
<v Speaker 3>chief financial officer. So she's really worked right across the company,

0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:05.040
<v Speaker 3>and she became CEO in twenty twenty three. Her pitch

0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:06.839
<v Speaker 3>to the board of Quantas for the job is I'm

0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:08.400
<v Speaker 3>not going to change anything. I'm going to be just

0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:13.120
<v Speaker 3>like Alan Joyce. Now, as Alan Joyce became absolutely toxic

0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.000
<v Speaker 3>in the dying months of his reign, she had to

0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:20.080
<v Speaker 3>very quickly change that plan and try to distinguish herself

0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.720
<v Speaker 3>from Joyce and be someone different.

0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:25.400
<v Speaker 5>We want to get back to the national carrier that

0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.880
<v Speaker 5>Australians can be proud of, that's known for going above

0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.960
<v Speaker 5>and beyond. We understand we need to earn your trust back,

0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.040
<v Speaker 5>not with what we say, but what we do and

0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:36.800
<v Speaker 5>how we behave.

0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.360
<v Speaker 3>And she has to keep the shareholders happy, She has

0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.400
<v Speaker 3>to make up with customers, and she has to make

0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:45.960
<v Speaker 3>staff feel like it's worth going out there and putting

0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.760
<v Speaker 3>themselves on the line every day. For those customers. She's

0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.800
<v Speaker 3>sort of done pretty well. For the shareholders, they're very happy.

0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:55.680
<v Speaker 3>The share prices more than double since she's been in charge.

0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:00.520
<v Speaker 3>And in terms of making up with the customers, noises

0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.400
<v Speaker 3>are made. But they'll never admit this. But every senior

0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:06.800
<v Speaker 3>executive at Quantus knows that they only have to be

0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.720
<v Speaker 3>so nice to their customers. But really they'll keep coming

0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.080
<v Speaker 3>back from more punishment because the customers just don't have

0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:14.760
<v Speaker 3>other options.

0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.240
<v Speaker 2>And it's not just the chief executive who has changed.

0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:23.640
<v Speaker 2>Last year, John Mullen became chair. So what impact has

0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:24.360
<v Speaker 2>he had so far?

0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:25.120
<v Speaker 6>Ah?

0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.120
<v Speaker 3>Well, look, I think John Mullen is someone who has

0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:32.760
<v Speaker 3>a really good sense of what the average person on

0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.080
<v Speaker 3>the street thinks and feels. You know, he's somebody who's

0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.600
<v Speaker 3>really quite in touch. And that's a good thing for

0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.160
<v Speaker 3>Quantas because that's how this happened in the first place.

0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.680
<v Speaker 3>Alan Joyce was living in his own world and his

0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.160
<v Speaker 3>board was subservient to him. So even though they might

0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.800
<v Speaker 3>have had doubts about how angry Australia was at Quantas,

0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:53.320
<v Speaker 3>they weren't prepared to challenge Alan Joyce to do anything

0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.840
<v Speaker 3>about it. Put it this way, there's no way in

0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:59.040
<v Speaker 3>the world that Vanessa Hudson is going to be telling

0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:01.240
<v Speaker 3>John Mullen what to do. And there's no way in

0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.280
<v Speaker 3>the world that John Mullen's going to be too afraid

0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:05.960
<v Speaker 3>to pull Vanessa Hudson into line. And that's the way

0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:07.280
<v Speaker 3>companies are supposed to be wrong.

0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.840
<v Speaker 2>Okay, And so have we heard from John Mullen since

0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:13.559
<v Speaker 2>this ruling came down on Monday.

0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.160
<v Speaker 3>No, we haven't, and it's probably not for him to

0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:19.400
<v Speaker 3>comment at this stage. But you know, look, there's no

0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:23.400
<v Speaker 3>doubt that John Mullen has got Vanessa and her team

0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.840
<v Speaker 3>really focused on cultural change. But I just find it

0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:31.760
<v Speaker 3>really disappointing that given the opportunity, and everyone was pointing

0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:33.800
<v Speaker 3>this out to them at the time in twenty twenty

0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.040
<v Speaker 3>four that they continue to argue that the workers should

0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.160
<v Speaker 3>get zero compensation because that's a really hard thing for

0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:42.960
<v Speaker 3>them to defend, and it just opens them up to

0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.560
<v Speaker 3>the absolutely legitimate criticism that they're all taught that the

0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.319
<v Speaker 3>cultural change is about a surface appearance and not actually

0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.920
<v Speaker 3>about root and branch. You know, should we do the

0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:56.120
<v Speaker 3>right thing even when it's expensive. Should we do the

0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:00.520
<v Speaker 3>right thing even when it's painful. I think that's really agredible.

0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.160
<v Speaker 3>And this is the thing about company culture. Everyone thinks

0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.080
<v Speaker 3>that company culture is something that everyone is part of,

0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.840
<v Speaker 3>and in some ways that's true, but the real truth

0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.480
<v Speaker 3>of it is that company culture is really set by

0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:14.880
<v Speaker 3>very few people at the top, and it is the

0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.520
<v Speaker 3>values of the boss that emanates through the organization. And

0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.480
<v Speaker 3>Alan Joyce had some executives around him whose judgment was

0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:26.000
<v Speaker 3>very poor when it came to ethical decision making, and

0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.880
<v Speaker 3>the court has ultimately found that Joe.

0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.160
<v Speaker 2>There is this line in Justice Lee's ruling where he

0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:36.560
<v Speaker 2>says that quantus is pleading virtue only when cornered and

0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:40.400
<v Speaker 2>feigning contrition while harboring it. No genuine regret, and I

0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.040
<v Speaker 2>think that really goes to everything that he kind of

0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.560
<v Speaker 2>said when handing down this decision. So how does that

0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.160
<v Speaker 2>square with the culture that you have observed at Quantus

0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.400
<v Speaker 2>over y'all many many years of reporting on the company.

0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:57.560
<v Speaker 3>Well, it's confirmatory of what I was just saying about,

0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.199
<v Speaker 3>you know, being very sorry, as saying that you're very sorry,

0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.840
<v Speaker 3>but then saying to the court, well, please, we don't

0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:05.840
<v Speaker 3>really want to pay these people any money for what

0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.520
<v Speaker 3>we did to them. It's very hard to argue that

0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.400
<v Speaker 3>that is actual, deep and profound cultural change and not

0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.359
<v Speaker 3>just a sort of air brushing of the ugly things

0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.880
<v Speaker 3>from view. Bear in mind, Quantus has a lot of

0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:21.320
<v Speaker 3>reasons not to be sorry for doing this. Look at

0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.720
<v Speaker 3>the numbers, right, So they've spent almost a quarter of

0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.640
<v Speaker 3>a billion dollars on this case, one hundred and twenty

0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.720
<v Speaker 3>million dollars in compensation, ninety million dollar fine, at least

0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.920
<v Speaker 3>twenty or twenty five million dollars in legal fees, and

0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:39.320
<v Speaker 3>even then they're still ahead financially because although they've been

0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.720
<v Speaker 3>publicly shamed and humiliated and the chairman had to resign

0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:45.600
<v Speaker 3>and the CEO had to resign and all these all

0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.080
<v Speaker 3>these executives had to resign and all sorts of calamity

0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:53.120
<v Speaker 3>befell them. What actually happened is by sacking these people illegally,

0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.720
<v Speaker 3>they saved one hundred and twenty five million dollars every

0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:00.840
<v Speaker 3>year on wages, and they avoided eight million dollars of

0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.360
<v Speaker 3>equipment costs that they were going to have to invest in.

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:07.120
<v Speaker 3>So it's been five years now, but that's almost seven

0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.160
<v Speaker 3>hundred million dollars they've already saved by doing what they did,

0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.120
<v Speaker 3>versus the two hundred and something million dollars that they've

0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.320
<v Speaker 3>had to pay for the infringement. So like, yeah, they

0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.120
<v Speaker 3>have to look like they're sorry, but I bet there's

0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.280
<v Speaker 3>plenty of people in the company who just very quietly

0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:24.920
<v Speaker 3>say that was a ripper decision. We've made more money

0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.120
<v Speaker 3>for our shareholders, and so you know, we all have

0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.800
<v Speaker 3>to send the right signals, but we do it again

0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.440
<v Speaker 3>ten times out of ten. That's something the government needs

0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.360
<v Speaker 3>to think really deeply about, because there's something wrong with

0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:44.760
<v Speaker 3>a country where breaking the law is cheaper than complying

0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:48.000
<v Speaker 3>with the law. We're breaking the law is so financially

0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.800
<v Speaker 3>rewarding that, to me, signals are problem with the law.

0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, Joe, thank you so much for your time today.

0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:57.120
<v Speaker 3>My pleasure. Thanks Realby.

0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.000
<v Speaker 1>You can listen back to Our You with Alan Joyce

0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.600
<v Speaker 1>titled Alan Joyce on Quantus Reputational Collapse at his Legacy.

0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.520
<v Speaker 1>You'll find it in your podcast for published Monday, July

0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:09.479
<v Speaker 1>twenty seven.

0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:21.560
<v Speaker 3>Seven.

0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:23.280
<v Speaker 1>I Am will be back tomorrow with an interview with

0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:27.400
<v Speaker 1>journalists and filmmaker Abby Martin. Over five years, she's been

0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.920
<v Speaker 1>investigating the hidden environmental footprint of the largest military in

0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:35.120
<v Speaker 1>the world for a new documentary, Earth's Greatest Enemy, traveling

0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.920
<v Speaker 1>from international wargames and military conferences to communities living with

0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.000
<v Speaker 1>the toxic legacy of the US military's global presence.

0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.720
<v Speaker 6>I mean, the US military has air forces that are

0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.120
<v Speaker 6>five times bigger than the next five biggest air powers combined.

0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.240
<v Speaker 6>The amount of waste and emissions that are just being

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.000
<v Speaker 6>used just to fly around in pointless patrols and just

0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.480
<v Speaker 6>to maintain mission readiness. I mean, just to wrap your

0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.840
<v Speaker 6>mind around that. Compared to the average Australian driver road,

0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.640
<v Speaker 6>it would be comparable to like twenty years driving straight

0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:08.400
<v Speaker 6>to one flight mission of a Boing Pioces.

0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.320
<v Speaker 1>That'll be in your faet tomorrow I'm Daniel James. Thanks

0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:13.120
<v Speaker 1>for listening to seven.

0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:28.360
<v Speaker 3>I am