WEBVTT - How ASIO’s pursuit of people smugglers really works 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:07.760 Hello, is Ali there? 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:09.480 Hello? 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:10.400 Hello? 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Is that Ali? 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:18.799 Yes? Hello, Sir Ali? Is this lovely gentle, kind of 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:19.480 natured man? 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:22.400 Oh yeah today, Hi, I'm very good. 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:23.400 How are you my friend? 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:24.520 Oh? 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:28.360 Not too bad, not too bad, just passed live. 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:31.720 My name is Mark and I'm the so. 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:36.159 Ali Jafari was an Afghan refugee who fled the Taliban regime. 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:37.640 In Afghanistan in nineteen ninety nine. 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:40.559 He was twenty six years old when he left, and 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.560 he left behind his wife and three sons. Flew to 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.800 Indonesia and then boarded a smuggle of vessel to Australia, 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.680 where he intended to seek asylum. 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:54.360 Enough of love they gave me for protection maser for 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:55.520 three years. 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.000 He then sponsored his family to join him in Australia, 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.680 and they were overjoyed to be reunited in Australia in 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.720 twenty ten, and so that had been eleven years apart. 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:10.360 Shortly after that, Ali's wife gave birth to their fourth son, 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:13.920 and so things were going really well form them, or 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:15.200 so they thought. 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:20.039 It is very hard live. It's very hard live. What 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:23.160 can I say to you? Sally is far away? What 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:23.800 can I do? 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:36.000 From Schwartz Media, I'm Ruby Jones This is seven AM. 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:40.039 When Ali Jafari's permanent resident visa was suddenly canceled twelve 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.840 years ago, he was stuck in Pakistan, separated from his 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:47.800 family here in Australia. In the decades since, Ali's family 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.520 have been fighting allegations from ASIO that he's a people smuggler, 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:55.800 which he denies, but they have been up against a 0:01:55.840 --> 0:02:00.600 goliath national security apparatus, one shrouded in secrecy, where suspected 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:03.960 people smugglers are treated as a similar threat to terrorists. 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:09.000 Today journalist Mark Isaacs on Ali's family's search for answers 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:21.079 and why ASIO refuses to provide them. It's Thursday May eight, 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:24.280 So Marck, welcome to seven AM. 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.919 Thank you for coming on the show, Thanks for having me. 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:29.359 You're here to talk about the case of Ali Jafari, 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:32.760 who came to Australia was later joined by his family 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.440 who all settled here, but then had his visa canceled. 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:38.280 So tell me what happened. 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:42.040 So, after a few months in immigration detention, he was 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:46.079 given a temporary protection visa and then later permanent residency 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.320 and he opened a grocery store in Western Sydney with 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:52.480 his friend's side Akbar Jafari. 0:02:55.440 --> 0:03:00.000 I received a call from the someone Dasa from part. 0:02:59.880 --> 0:03:04.360 Of Ali had applied from the Shlian citizenship, so the 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.440 Department of Immigration invited him to attend an interview for 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:08.400 that citizenship. 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.720 I say from where they say from the Paramatta Magresha. 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:17.040 When I go there, I see the Azio Police or PEPs. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:18.520 I don't know about it. 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.000 But when he arrived at the offices of the Department 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.040 of Immigration, it turned out to be a surprise interrogation 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.160 by two plane closed ASIO officers. 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.520 So what did ASIO allege that Ali had done? 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:37.360 So this friend Saija Jafari, who I mentioned before their 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.840 business relationship. That relationship between Ali and Say became the 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:45.400 center of an ASIO investigation into suspected people smuggling activities. 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.640 ASIO suspected that Ali had been a part of this 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:54.160 people smuggling syndicate that was based in Indonesia. So the 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.600 allegation is he would prefer a person who wanted to 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.200 use the smuggling syndicates, so they probably want to try 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.360 and get family members out of danger in Pakistan. And 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:05.960 the allegation is that he would take a cut from 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:09.040 those referrals. That's the extent of what we know, we 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:11.920 haven't seen any of the evidence to support that. 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:14.800 Right, what do we know about that interrogation? 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:15.600 What was said? 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.320 So they immediately identify themselves to Ali, and they're clear 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.160 that the purpose of the interview was for a security assessment, 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.560 which they say is part of the citizenship process, and 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:28.040 over the course of that to our interview, they. 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:29.600 Asked more than a thousand questions. 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:33.240 The court documents say there was no lawyer present to 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.560 represent Ali, and at no point the Asier officers advising 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:41.120 and to obtain legal representation. Ali wasn't literate in English, 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.680 but he did speak English. There was an interpreter present, 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.039 but having read the Asier transcript of the interview, he 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.800 didn't rely on the interpreter, and so he claims that 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.279 he didn't know what Asia was at the time and 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:56.680 didn't understand the serious of the situation. 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:01.040 You say, no, you have to talk to after something 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:02.880 like that. I don't know. I don't know about the 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.279 police they pictor I don't know about it. 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.080 And you can imagine he's been in the country for 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:12.240 you know, ten years, just working in a shop. I'm 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.480 sure he wouldn't have understood exactly what was going on 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:16.600 in that scenario. 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:20.479 They bushed him too, me no. 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:19.240 You say. 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.400 At the end of the interview, Ali asked the officers 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.279 if the interview was legal, and they admitted that using 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:29.000 the disguise of a in bracket citizenship interview could be 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:33.760 quite misleading, but this was quote regular practice. So after 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.520 the interview, it was the following year, while Ali was 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.799 abroad in Pakistan, he was visiting his mother. The Director 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.320 General of ASIO issued him with an averse security assessment 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.680 which says they suspected is a threat to national security 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:49.600 due to his suspected people smuggling activities. And based on 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.680 that assessment that the Minister then Cancelor's visa and that 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:53.839 was Minister Brendan O'Connor. 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.840 And Ali's been in Pakistan ever since. 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:00.440 And what about Ali's family, Yeah. 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:03.160 I mean Ali's family were left behind. Ali's wife had 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:07.120 a breakdown and she shruggled to cope with his being away, 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.680 and so it was left to his son Say to 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.960 kind of support the family. He was finishing his high 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.680 school certificate, he was working part time. The family relied 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.840 on his income to survive. But it was also up 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.600 to Ali's sun Say to kind of work out what 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.760 had happened to him, and how they could challenge that legally. 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.320 So he'd been in the country for three years at 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.880 that point in time. He was a seventeen year old 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:39.480 Afghan kid who had lived in Pakistan the last years 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.640 as an undocumented refugee, and all of this burden was 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.719 put upon him, which is quite incredible. So they're a 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.520 bit confused. They don't understand what's happened. Even now, twelve 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.520 years later, they're still uncertain what happened to him, why 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:55.680 it happened to him, and how they can get some 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.760 kind of resolution to their story. 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.160 After the break, Ali's sons fight to get their father home. 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.560 So Mark talked to me more about the legal process 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:16.840 after Ali's visa was canceled by the Immigration minister. 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:19.360 So the first thing I would say is that the 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.600 way they were notified of the visa cancelation was the 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.480 family received the letter in the mail and they were 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.000 then expected to call Ali to tell him what had happened, 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:30.680 and they had to tell him that he would be 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.760 refused immigration clearents and removed from the country if he 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:37.440 tried to come back to Australia. Ali hired a solicitor, 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.760 Jeremy Sita and he applied for a merit's review of 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:44.480 Ali's security assessment. It took two years before court proceedings 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:49.640 for finalized. Ali tried to provide evidence from Pakistan, which 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.920 was a challenging process. He had to travel from courtA 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.200 to Islamabad, and you know, it's quite risky because he's 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.600 an undocumented person in Pakistan and he risk being deported 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:04.440 if he was court. He has no identity documents in Pakistan, 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.360 so if he wants to get his identity documents, he'd 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:09.960 have to go back to Taliban controlled Afghanistan to get them, 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.160 so he was kind of stuck in Pakistan. 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:12.440 There. 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.760 They went through this court case, but when they arrived 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.120 in court, the family discovered that the evidence behind the 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.760 security assessment was deemed confidential and would only be revealed 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.040 that a closed hearing, and that would be without the 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.760 presence of Ali's family or the legal team. They previously 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:33.160 tried to make two freedom of information requests for documents 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.800 relating to Ali's case, but both were rejected and they 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.920 were supplied with an unplassified what they term a statement 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.920 of grounds, which alleged that Ali was a prominent member 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.880 of the side abas maritime people smuggling syndicate. 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:49.840 Right, So the evidence that ASIO used to support its 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.920 case that Ali Jafari was involved in people smuggling, that 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.280 evidence Ali has never seen it and his legal team 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:58.120 has never seen it. 0:08:58.880 --> 0:08:59.160 Yeah. 0:08:59.320 --> 0:08:59.520 Yeah. 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.079 And interestingly, when the Tribe you don't made their decision, 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.640 they acknowledged that there wasn't enough of a case in 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.920 the kind of open evidence, which means the evidence that 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.640 Ali's legal team were able to see, and that the 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:15.959 thrust of the argument made by asio's council was in 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:17.880 the section that was confidential. 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.640 I mean, it seems pretty unusual and also unfair to 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.520 have evidence used against you that you can't contest because 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:26.160 you can't see it. 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:26.920 Yeah, certainly. 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.800 I mean it goes against the foundational concepts of justice 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.600 that you're innocent until proven guilty and that you get 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:33.680 a fair trial. Yeah. 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.599 So, to be clear, Ali has actually not been convicted 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:38.040 of people smuggling. 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.840 No, He's never been convicted of people smuggling. And asio's 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.600 job isn't to convict people of smuggling. But Australian law 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.079 has made the offensive people smuggling into one of the 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:49.520 most serious criminal offenses. 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.840 The government will introduce new bills into Parliament today to 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.920 beef up Asio's powers, allowing it now to go after 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.400 people smuggling, syndicates and criminals. 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.440 The Labor government in two ten that gave as the 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.960 power to investigate suspected smugglers, provide security assessments and then 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.600 based on those security assessments, can cancel their visas they 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:14.800 can be placed in immigration detention or deported without criminal trial. 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.679 The law enforcement response of this government is more substantial 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.160 than any other peacetime government in terms of border protection, 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:24.440 more boats on the water, more planes in the air, 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:29.280 stronger law enforcement powers, as well as working increasingly cooperatively 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:30.280 with our neighbors. 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.720 And so that allows is Showing government. 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.560 To avoid, I think, to go through the expensive and 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.360 often difficult process of charging someone with the criminal offense. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.720 And in Ali's case, the cancelation of his visa while 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:44.840 he was a broad in Pakistan, which is quite a 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:46.840 unique case, the one that I've only I hadn't come 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.720 across other than Ali. That allowed them to avoid keeping 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.880 him in immigration detention indefinitely. So it was a far cheaper, 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.960 far less difficult process for the Showing government to handle. 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.520 The consequence was his family were left behind without a father. 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.120 So Ali is in Pakistan still, how is he doing? 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:16.160 I mean, he is despondent about the future. There's very 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:19.520 few legal avenues open for him to try and get 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.120 back to Australia. He would have to essentially rely on 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:28.800 a change of security assessment from Asia and then from 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.760 there be able to apply for another visa to Australia, 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:33.920 and the chances of that happening seem. 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:34.480 To be quite low. 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.400 He's been away from his family for almost twelve years now. 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:41.480 He's unable to work due to his not being a 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.800 citizen of Pakistan, and he's fearful of being targeted by 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:49.520 extremist groups, being arrested, of being deported to Taliban ruled Afghanistan, 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.920 which is increasingly happening in Pakistan at the moment to 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.040 Afghan refugees, and so he survives on the money that 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:57.520 his children sent home to him. 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.080 He is very hard life, so you know, very hard 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.240 life is yet is very dune jet in Pakistan too. 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.439 And since then his children have been quite prominent in Australians. 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.800 One of them was a professional boxer and another side 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:17.160 Ada was involved in community welfare programs helping refugees and 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:21.839 asylum seekers settle in the community through sports and other programs. 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:28.600 My son, my wife, all my family upset is very 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:30.040 hard life. 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.360 For me ahead yes said and his family. They miss 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:34.160 their dad a lot. 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.400 So he doesn't like to talk about him at home 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.640 because it upsets his mum and he wants to be strong. 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:42.480 For his mum and his brothers. 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.440 But he remains determined for justice and so he wants 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.920 people to know how unfair this has been. But he's 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:51.200 also seeking a way to get his father back to 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:54.560 Australia and I don't know if that will be possible. 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:58.120 Mark, Thank you so much for your time. 0:12:58.360 --> 0:12:59.600 Thank you, thanks for having. 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.080 Also in the news today, Green's leader Adam Bann is 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:14.839 projected to lose his seat of Melbourne to Labour's Sarah 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:18.680 Whitty after a tight count that stretched several days. It 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.920 marks the second political leader to be ousted at the election. Meanwhile, 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.319 Independent Zoe Daniel has also lost her seat of Goldstein 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.000 to Liberal Tim Wilson, and in Kuyong in Melbourne's Inner East, 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:34.079 independent incumbent Manique Ryan has a slim edge over Liberal 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:40.959 Amelia Haimer. And India has launched multiple missile strikes inside 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:45.440 Pakistan and Pakistan administered Kashmir in what Pakistani authorities have 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:49.760 called a blatant act of war. Pakistani military officials say 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.240 at least twenty six people were killed and thirty five 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.560 others were wounded. It follows weeks of tension after a 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.720 terrorist attack in Indian controlled Kashmir killed twenty six Hindu 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.800 tura I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven a m. Thanks 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:04.280 for listening.