Speaker 1: Hello, is Ali there?
Speaker 2: Hello?
Speaker 1: Hello?
Speaker 3: Is that Ali?
Speaker 1: Yes? Hello, Sir Ali? Is this lovely gentle, kind of
Speaker 1: natured man?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah today, Hi, I'm very good.
Speaker 3: How are you my friend?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Not too bad, not too bad, just passed live.
Speaker 3: My name is Mark and I'm the so.
Speaker 1: Ali Jafari was an Afghan refugee who fled the Taliban regime.
Speaker 3: In Afghanistan in nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 1: He was twenty six years old when he left, and
Speaker 1: he left behind his wife and three sons. Flew to
Speaker 1: Indonesia and then boarded a smuggle of vessel to Australia,
Speaker 1: where he intended to seek asylum.
Speaker 2: Enough of love they gave me for protection maser for
Speaker 2: three years.
Speaker 1: He then sponsored his family to join him in Australia,
Speaker 1: and they were overjoyed to be reunited in Australia in
Speaker 1: twenty ten, and so that had been eleven years apart.
Speaker 1: Shortly after that, Ali's wife gave birth to their fourth son,
Speaker 1: and so things were going really well form them, or
Speaker 1: so they thought.
Speaker 2: It is very hard live. It's very hard live. What
Speaker 2: can I say to you? Sally is far away? What
Speaker 2: can I do?
Speaker 4: From Schwartz Media, I'm Ruby Jones This is seven AM.
Speaker 4: When Ali Jafari's permanent resident visa was suddenly canceled twelve
Speaker 4: years ago, he was stuck in Pakistan, separated from his
Speaker 4: family here in Australia. In the decades since, Ali's family
Speaker 4: have been fighting allegations from ASIO that he's a people smuggler,
Speaker 4: which he denies, but they have been up against a
Speaker 4: goliath national security apparatus, one shrouded in secrecy, where suspected
Speaker 4: people smugglers are treated as a similar threat to terrorists.
Speaker 4: Today journalist Mark Isaacs on Ali's family's search for answers
Speaker 4: and why ASIO refuses to provide them. It's Thursday May eight,
Speaker 4: So Marck, welcome to seven AM.
Speaker 3: Thank you for coming on the show, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: You're here to talk about the case of Ali Jafari,
Speaker 4: who came to Australia was later joined by his family
Speaker 4: who all settled here, but then had his visa canceled.
Speaker 4: So tell me what happened.
Speaker 1: So, after a few months in immigration detention, he was
Speaker 1: given a temporary protection visa and then later permanent residency
Speaker 1: and he opened a grocery store in Western Sydney with
Speaker 1: his friend's side Akbar Jafari.
Speaker 2: I received a call from the someone Dasa from part.
Speaker 1: Of Ali had applied from the Shlian citizenship, so the
Speaker 1: Department of Immigration invited him to attend an interview for
Speaker 1: that citizenship.
Speaker 2: I say from where they say from the Paramatta Magresha.
Speaker 2: When I go there, I see the Azio Police or PEPs.
Speaker 2: I don't know about it.
Speaker 1: But when he arrived at the offices of the Department
Speaker 1: of Immigration, it turned out to be a surprise interrogation
Speaker 1: by two plane closed ASIO officers.
Speaker 4: So what did ASIO allege that Ali had done?
Speaker 1: So this friend Saija Jafari, who I mentioned before their
Speaker 1: business relationship. That relationship between Ali and Say became the
Speaker 1: center of an ASIO investigation into suspected people smuggling activities.
Speaker 1: ASIO suspected that Ali had been a part of this
Speaker 1: people smuggling syndicate that was based in Indonesia. So the
Speaker 1: allegation is he would prefer a person who wanted to
Speaker 1: use the smuggling syndicates, so they probably want to try
Speaker 1: and get family members out of danger in Pakistan. And
Speaker 1: the allegation is that he would take a cut from
Speaker 1: those referrals. That's the extent of what we know, we
Speaker 1: haven't seen any of the evidence to support that.
Speaker 4: Right, what do we know about that interrogation?
Speaker 3: What was said?
Speaker 1: So they immediately identify themselves to Ali, and they're clear
Speaker 1: that the purpose of the interview was for a security assessment,
Speaker 1: which they say is part of the citizenship process, and
Speaker 1: over the course of that to our interview, they.
Speaker 3: Asked more than a thousand questions.
Speaker 1: The court documents say there was no lawyer present to
Speaker 1: represent Ali, and at no point the Asier officers advising
Speaker 1: and to obtain legal representation. Ali wasn't literate in English,
Speaker 1: but he did speak English. There was an interpreter present,
Speaker 1: but having read the Asier transcript of the interview, he
Speaker 1: didn't rely on the interpreter, and so he claims that
Speaker 1: he didn't know what Asia was at the time and
Speaker 1: didn't understand the serious of the situation.
Speaker 2: You say, no, you have to talk to after something
Speaker 2: like that. I don't know. I don't know about the
Speaker 2: police they pictor I don't know about it.
Speaker 1: And you can imagine he's been in the country for
Speaker 1: you know, ten years, just working in a shop. I'm
Speaker 1: sure he wouldn't have understood exactly what was going on
Speaker 1: in that scenario.
Speaker 2: They bushed him too, me no.
Speaker 4: You say.
Speaker 1: At the end of the interview, Ali asked the officers
Speaker 1: if the interview was legal, and they admitted that using
Speaker 1: the disguise of a in bracket citizenship interview could be
Speaker 1: quite misleading, but this was quote regular practice. So after
Speaker 1: the interview, it was the following year, while Ali was
Speaker 1: abroad in Pakistan, he was visiting his mother. The Director
Speaker 1: General of ASIO issued him with an averse security assessment
Speaker 1: which says they suspected is a threat to national security
Speaker 1: due to his suspected people smuggling activities. And based on
Speaker 1: that assessment that the Minister then Cancelor's visa and that
Speaker 1: was Minister Brendan O'Connor.
Speaker 3: And Ali's been in Pakistan ever since.
Speaker 4: And what about Ali's family, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean Ali's family were left behind. Ali's wife had
Speaker 1: a breakdown and she shruggled to cope with his being away,
Speaker 1: and so it was left to his son Say to
Speaker 1: kind of support the family. He was finishing his high
Speaker 1: school certificate, he was working part time. The family relied
Speaker 1: on his income to survive. But it was also up
Speaker 1: to Ali's sun Say to kind of work out what
Speaker 1: had happened to him, and how they could challenge that legally.
Speaker 1: So he'd been in the country for three years at
Speaker 1: that point in time. He was a seventeen year old
Speaker 1: Afghan kid who had lived in Pakistan the last years
Speaker 1: as an undocumented refugee, and all of this burden was
Speaker 1: put upon him, which is quite incredible. So they're a
Speaker 1: bit confused. They don't understand what's happened. Even now, twelve
Speaker 1: years later, they're still uncertain what happened to him, why
Speaker 1: it happened to him, and how they can get some
Speaker 1: kind of resolution to their story.
Speaker 4: After the break, Ali's sons fight to get their father home.
Speaker 4: So Mark talked to me more about the legal process
Speaker 4: after Ali's visa was canceled by the Immigration minister.
Speaker 1: So the first thing I would say is that the
Speaker 1: way they were notified of the visa cancelation was the
Speaker 1: family received the letter in the mail and they were
Speaker 1: then expected to call Ali to tell him what had happened,
Speaker 1: and they had to tell him that he would be
Speaker 1: refused immigration clearents and removed from the country if he
Speaker 1: tried to come back to Australia. Ali hired a solicitor,
Speaker 1: Jeremy Sita and he applied for a merit's review of
Speaker 1: Ali's security assessment. It took two years before court proceedings
Speaker 1: for finalized. Ali tried to provide evidence from Pakistan, which
Speaker 1: was a challenging process. He had to travel from courtA
Speaker 1: to Islamabad, and you know, it's quite risky because he's
Speaker 1: an undocumented person in Pakistan and he risk being deported
Speaker 1: if he was court. He has no identity documents in Pakistan,
Speaker 1: so if he wants to get his identity documents, he'd
Speaker 1: have to go back to Taliban controlled Afghanistan to get them,
Speaker 1: so he was kind of stuck in Pakistan.
Speaker 3: There.
Speaker 1: They went through this court case, but when they arrived
Speaker 1: in court, the family discovered that the evidence behind the
Speaker 1: security assessment was deemed confidential and would only be revealed
Speaker 1: that a closed hearing, and that would be without the
Speaker 1: presence of Ali's family or the legal team. They previously
Speaker 1: tried to make two freedom of information requests for documents
Speaker 1: relating to Ali's case, but both were rejected and they
Speaker 1: were supplied with an unplassified what they term a statement
Speaker 1: of grounds, which alleged that Ali was a prominent member
Speaker 1: of the side abas maritime people smuggling syndicate.
Speaker 4: Right, So the evidence that ASIO used to support its
Speaker 4: case that Ali Jafari was involved in people smuggling, that
Speaker 4: evidence Ali has never seen it and his legal team
Speaker 4: has never seen it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And interestingly, when the Tribe you don't made their decision,
Speaker 1: they acknowledged that there wasn't enough of a case in
Speaker 1: the kind of open evidence, which means the evidence that
Speaker 1: Ali's legal team were able to see, and that the
Speaker 1: thrust of the argument made by asio's council was in
Speaker 1: the section that was confidential.
Speaker 4: I mean, it seems pretty unusual and also unfair to
Speaker 4: have evidence used against you that you can't contest because
Speaker 4: you can't see it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly.
Speaker 1: I mean it goes against the foundational concepts of justice
Speaker 1: that you're innocent until proven guilty and that you get
Speaker 1: a fair trial. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So, to be clear, Ali has actually not been convicted
Speaker 4: of people smuggling.
Speaker 1: No, He's never been convicted of people smuggling. And asio's
Speaker 1: job isn't to convict people of smuggling. But Australian law
Speaker 1: has made the offensive people smuggling into one of the
Speaker 1: most serious criminal offenses.
Speaker 5: The government will introduce new bills into Parliament today to
Speaker 5: beef up Asio's powers, allowing it now to go after
Speaker 5: people smuggling, syndicates and criminals.
Speaker 1: The Labor government in two ten that gave as the
Speaker 1: power to investigate suspected smugglers, provide security assessments and then
Speaker 1: based on those security assessments, can cancel their visas they
Speaker 1: can be placed in immigration detention or deported without criminal trial.
Speaker 5: The law enforcement response of this government is more substantial
Speaker 5: than any other peacetime government in terms of border protection,
Speaker 5: more boats on the water, more planes in the air,
Speaker 5: stronger law enforcement powers, as well as working increasingly cooperatively
Speaker 5: with our neighbors.
Speaker 3: And so that allows is Showing government.
Speaker 1: To avoid, I think, to go through the expensive and
Speaker 1: often difficult process of charging someone with the criminal offense.
Speaker 1: And in Ali's case, the cancelation of his visa while
Speaker 1: he was a broad in Pakistan, which is quite a
Speaker 1: unique case, the one that I've only I hadn't come
Speaker 1: across other than Ali. That allowed them to avoid keeping
Speaker 1: him in immigration detention indefinitely. So it was a far cheaper,
Speaker 1: far less difficult process for the Showing government to handle.
Speaker 1: The consequence was his family were left behind without a father.
Speaker 4: So Ali is in Pakistan still, how is he doing?
Speaker 1: I mean, he is despondent about the future. There's very
Speaker 1: few legal avenues open for him to try and get
Speaker 1: back to Australia. He would have to essentially rely on
Speaker 1: a change of security assessment from Asia and then from
Speaker 1: there be able to apply for another visa to Australia,
Speaker 1: and the chances of that happening seem.
Speaker 3: To be quite low.
Speaker 1: He's been away from his family for almost twelve years now.
Speaker 1: He's unable to work due to his not being a
Speaker 1: citizen of Pakistan, and he's fearful of being targeted by
Speaker 1: extremist groups, being arrested, of being deported to Taliban ruled Afghanistan,
Speaker 1: which is increasingly happening in Pakistan at the moment to
Speaker 1: Afghan refugees, and so he survives on the money that
Speaker 1: his children sent home to him.
Speaker 2: He is very hard life, so you know, very hard
Speaker 2: life is yet is very dune jet in Pakistan too.
Speaker 1: And since then his children have been quite prominent in Australians.
Speaker 1: One of them was a professional boxer and another side
Speaker 1: Ada was involved in community welfare programs helping refugees and
Speaker 1: asylum seekers settle in the community through sports and other programs.
Speaker 2: My son, my wife, all my family upset is very
Speaker 2: hard life.
Speaker 3: For me ahead yes said and his family. They miss
Speaker 3: their dad a lot.
Speaker 1: So he doesn't like to talk about him at home
Speaker 1: because it upsets his mum and he wants to be strong.
Speaker 3: For his mum and his brothers.
Speaker 1: But he remains determined for justice and so he wants
Speaker 1: people to know how unfair this has been. But he's
Speaker 1: also seeking a way to get his father back to
Speaker 1: Australia and I don't know if that will be possible.
Speaker 4: Mark, Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having.
Speaker 4: Also in the news today, Green's leader Adam Bann is
Speaker 4: projected to lose his seat of Melbourne to Labour's Sarah
Speaker 4: Whitty after a tight count that stretched several days. It
Speaker 4: marks the second political leader to be ousted at the election. Meanwhile,
Speaker 4: Independent Zoe Daniel has also lost her seat of Goldstein
Speaker 4: to Liberal Tim Wilson, and in Kuyong in Melbourne's Inner East,
Speaker 4: independent incumbent Manique Ryan has a slim edge over Liberal
Speaker 4: Amelia Haimer. And India has launched multiple missile strikes inside
Speaker 4: Pakistan and Pakistan administered Kashmir in what Pakistani authorities have
Speaker 4: called a blatant act of war. Pakistani military officials say
Speaker 4: at least twenty six people were killed and thirty five
Speaker 4: others were wounded. It follows weeks of tension after a
Speaker 4: terrorist attack in Indian controlled Kashmir killed twenty six Hindu
Speaker 4: tura I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven a m. Thanks
Speaker 4: for listening.