1 00:00:03,900 --> 00:00:08,430 Shawn Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Shawn Aylmer. It's been a few weeks now since 2 00:00:08,430 --> 00:00:11,550 Shawn Aylmer: the federal government's jobs and skills summit, and with the 3 00:00:11,550 --> 00:00:14,190 Shawn Aylmer: treasurer handing down the budget next month, I thought it 4 00:00:14,190 --> 00:00:15,990 Shawn Aylmer: was a good time to check in on the state 5 00:00:15,990 --> 00:00:18,599 Shawn Aylmer: of business in Australia. And who better to talk to 6 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,119 Shawn Aylmer: than the people who work with those businesses every day? 7 00:00:21,450 --> 00:00:25,709 Shawn Aylmer: CPA Australia, which stands for certified practicing accountant has more 8 00:00:25,710 --> 00:00:30,060 Shawn Aylmer: than 170,000 members in over 100 countries and regions. Andrew 9 00:00:30,060 --> 00:00:32,670 Shawn Aylmer: Hunter is the chief executive of CPA Australia, and my 10 00:00:32,670 --> 00:00:34,950 Shawn Aylmer: guest this morning. Andrew, welcome back to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:35,370 --> 00:00:36,839 Andrew Hunter: Thanks, Shawn. It's good to be back again. 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,190 Shawn Aylmer: We had labor force figures in recent days. We've had 13 00:00:41,190 --> 00:00:45,360 Shawn Aylmer: all sorts of discussions about wages growth with job vacancies, 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,840 Shawn Aylmer: et cetera. We also had the jobs and skills summit 15 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,559 Shawn Aylmer: a few weeks back. Do you think that summit, given 16 00:00:52,710 --> 00:00:55,020 Shawn Aylmer: the context, was a success? 17 00:00:56,340 --> 00:00:59,910 Andrew Hunter: I think (inaudible) it was. If I was a school teacher and 18 00:00:59,910 --> 00:01:02,970 Andrew Hunter: I had to give it a mark, I'd probably give 19 00:01:02,970 --> 00:01:05,789 Andrew Hunter: it an A. A provisional A so I think we've still 20 00:01:05,790 --> 00:01:08,400 Andrew Hunter: got more that we need to see, but I think 21 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,280 Andrew Hunter: it was a very good start. And you mentioned that 22 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,610 Andrew Hunter: we've just seen some job numbers come out very recently. 23 00:01:15,030 --> 00:01:18,300 Andrew Hunter: I think it's very opportunity that we're talking about jobs 24 00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:22,080 Andrew Hunter: and skills at a time that unemployment it is at 25 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:23,640 Andrew Hunter: practically an historic low. 26 00:01:24,450 --> 00:01:26,970 Shawn Aylmer: Yeah. So, I mean, there's plenty of talk about industrial 27 00:01:26,970 --> 00:01:28,560 Shawn Aylmer: relations. I'm actually just going to park that for the 28 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:34,950 Shawn Aylmer: moment. Skills though, because many businesses need skilled workers. Is 29 00:01:34,950 --> 00:01:36,090 Shawn Aylmer: migration the answer? 30 00:01:36,930 --> 00:01:39,900 Andrew Hunter: I think migration is part of the answer. There's no 31 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:43,200 Andrew Hunter: question that jobs and skills are holding back Australia's economic 32 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,160 Andrew Hunter: success. And I think the problem that we have had, and this 33 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,860 Andrew Hunter: is a problem by the way, that has been decades 34 00:01:50,010 --> 00:01:52,800 Andrew Hunter: in the making. So people think, oh my gosh, we 35 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,310 Andrew Hunter: had a pandemic and that has brought about a jobs 36 00:01:56,310 --> 00:01:59,130 Andrew Hunter: and skills crisis. Actually we have had it for many 37 00:01:59,130 --> 00:02:02,280 Andrew Hunter: decades and the problem is we keep coming up with 38 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,910 Andrew Hunter: temporary solutions and the temporary solution to a long term 39 00:02:05,910 --> 00:02:08,639 Andrew Hunter: structural problem that we've had has been to hand out 40 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,480 Andrew Hunter: temporary visas I'm encouraged. And this is why I gave 41 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,150 Andrew Hunter: the government a provisional A for their jobs and skills 42 00:02:15,150 --> 00:02:19,590 Andrew Hunter: summit. I'm encouraged in their response because they're starting to 43 00:02:19,590 --> 00:02:23,580 Andrew Hunter: look at permanent solutions and one of them is through 44 00:02:23,580 --> 00:02:27,060 Andrew Hunter: migration. So I was pleased to see that they have 45 00:02:27,060 --> 00:02:32,520 Andrew Hunter: increased a cap on permanent migration from 165,000 people a 46 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,070 Andrew Hunter: year to 190. So that's a good thing. It's a 47 00:02:35,070 --> 00:02:38,700 Andrew Hunter: good start. We need to make sure that those places 48 00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:41,370 Andrew Hunter: are being allocated to the areas where we have the 49 00:02:41,370 --> 00:02:44,220 Andrew Hunter: greatest skill shortage, obviously. But the other big part of 50 00:02:44,220 --> 00:02:49,470 Andrew Hunter: it is they've allocated about 36, 37 million to the processing 51 00:02:49,470 --> 00:02:52,380 Andrew Hunter: of visas and to quicken up the time taken to 52 00:02:52,380 --> 00:02:55,710 Andrew Hunter: process visas, because it just takes an inordinate amount of 53 00:02:55,710 --> 00:02:58,110 Andrew Hunter: time for people to get a visa to come and 54 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,690 Andrew Hunter: work in Australia on a permanent basis. 55 00:03:01,620 --> 00:03:04,500 Shawn Aylmer: So if migration is part of the answer, what are 56 00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:05,430 Shawn Aylmer: the other parts? 57 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,970 Andrew Hunter: I think some of the other parts are we firstly, 58 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,750 Andrew Hunter: need to address the fact that we have a jobs 59 00:03:12,810 --> 00:03:16,110 Andrew Hunter: and skill shortage. And part of the problem of the 60 00:03:16,110 --> 00:03:19,050 Andrew Hunter: past is we're focused too much on occupations. And I 61 00:03:19,050 --> 00:03:22,740 Andrew Hunter: think we need to identify where are the skill shortages 62 00:03:22,830 --> 00:03:26,610 Andrew Hunter: and the world, particularly amongst our younger people, the world 63 00:03:26,610 --> 00:03:30,570 Andrew Hunter: has moved away from macro qualifications and people are starting 64 00:03:30,570 --> 00:03:34,139 Andrew Hunter: to look for micro qualifications. So you've probably heard the 65 00:03:34,139 --> 00:03:37,170 Andrew Hunter: term micro credentials. A lot of younger people are saying 66 00:03:37,170 --> 00:03:39,840 Andrew Hunter: to themselves, do I really want to invest three or 67 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,070 Andrew Hunter: four years of my life and pay $ 50,000 for a 68 00:03:44,070 --> 00:03:49,200 Andrew Hunter: university degree that are relatively inflexible, and that could well 69 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,190 Andrew Hunter: leave me with a qualification, but not necessarily the skills 70 00:03:53,190 --> 00:03:56,400 Andrew Hunter: that I need to have a meaningful career? And it's 71 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,630 Andrew Hunter: interesting what we're seeing amongst younger people today is they're 72 00:04:00,630 --> 00:04:03,600 Andrew Hunter: asking themselves, what are the skills I need to get 73 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,290 Andrew Hunter: a job? And what are the short courses I can do in 74 00:04:07,290 --> 00:04:12,360 Andrew Hunter: things like technology or data or artificial intelligence, even sustainability in 75 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:17,160 Andrew Hunter: ESG, all of which are important skills to get a 76 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,550 Andrew Hunter: job. So people are doing short courses. And at the 77 00:04:20,550 --> 00:04:23,490 Andrew Hunter: end of those short courses, they earn a micro credential 78 00:04:23,490 --> 00:04:27,210 Andrew Hunter: and some of those micro credentials can be accumulated into 79 00:04:27,210 --> 00:04:31,830 Andrew Hunter: a macro degree. And so we need to move away 80 00:04:31,830 --> 00:04:37,380 Andrew Hunter: from trying to attract certain occupations, such as a data 81 00:04:37,380 --> 00:04:42,000 Andrew Hunter: analyst or a company secretary, or an environmental consultant. And 82 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,089 Andrew Hunter: we need to say to ourselves, what are the skills 83 00:04:45,089 --> 00:04:48,089 Andrew Hunter: that we need from our younger people and people in 84 00:04:48,089 --> 00:04:50,909 Andrew Hunter: the workforce? And so the government I think, is going 85 00:04:50,910 --> 00:04:53,490 Andrew Hunter: down the right path. We should come back to migration, 86 00:04:53,490 --> 00:04:55,290 Andrew Hunter: because I think it is an important part of the 87 00:04:55,290 --> 00:05:00,299 Andrew Hunter: solution, but the government announced a 1. 1 billion scheme for 88 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:05,400 Andrew Hunter: 180,000 fee free TAFE places that they're working in cooperation 89 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,570 Andrew Hunter: with the premiers and the chief ministers. So those TAFE places 90 00:05:09,570 --> 00:05:15,690 Andrew Hunter: will be very much directed towards providing vocational training skills 91 00:05:15,690 --> 00:05:19,500 Andrew Hunter: and micro credentials that are essential to the future of 92 00:05:19,500 --> 00:05:20,250 Andrew Hunter: our workforce. 93 00:05:20,670 --> 00:05:23,220 Shawn Aylmer: It's kind of an interesting response because when you talk 94 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,960 Shawn Aylmer: to employers, they're always saying, now, look, we're not necessarily 95 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,450 Shawn Aylmer: looking for someone with a certain set of skills. We're 96 00:05:30,450 --> 00:05:33,089 Shawn Aylmer: actually looking for the right person and we can teach 97 00:05:33,089 --> 00:05:35,400 Shawn Aylmer: them those sorts of skills. Is that what you mean? 98 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,120 Andrew Hunter: Yeah, I think that is an element of it. Certainly the feedback 99 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,089 Andrew Hunter: I get from a lot of employers is they're saying 100 00:05:42,089 --> 00:05:45,690 Andrew Hunter: that people are coming out of university and they don't 101 00:05:45,690 --> 00:05:48,660 Andrew Hunter: have the skills that the people are looking for. There's 102 00:05:48,660 --> 00:05:51,390 Andrew Hunter: a great expression that you should hire for attitude, not 103 00:05:51,390 --> 00:05:54,960 Andrew Hunter: aptitude. So if you hire people with a great attitude, 104 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,289 Andrew Hunter: I think employers are saying we can train them up. 105 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,290 Andrew Hunter: And this is the challenge. If someone spent three or 106 00:06:01,290 --> 00:06:04,320 Andrew Hunter: four years at university and then they get into the 107 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,600 Andrew Hunter: workforce and their employer tells them they don't have the right 108 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,960 Andrew Hunter: skills, we've clearly got something that we need to be 109 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,140 Andrew Hunter: addressing in the system. And that's not meant to be 110 00:06:13,140 --> 00:06:16,710 Andrew Hunter: a criticism of universities. But what it is meant to 111 00:06:16,710 --> 00:06:20,970 Andrew Hunter: be saying is the emphasis of our training needs to 112 00:06:20,970 --> 00:06:24,089 Andrew Hunter: be on the skills that are required in our workforces. 113 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,210 Andrew Hunter: And that's the essence of what we are putting forward, 114 00:06:27,540 --> 00:06:29,250 Andrew Hunter: and I think came out of the jobs and skills 115 00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:32,550 Andrew Hunter: summit is in order for Australia to have a productive 116 00:06:32,550 --> 00:06:35,730 Andrew Hunter: economy, we need to focus on the skills that the 117 00:06:35,730 --> 00:06:37,650 Andrew Hunter: Australian economy is in short supply of. 118 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,049 Shawn Aylmer: Stay with me, Andrew, we'll be back in a minute. 119 00:06:46,140 --> 00:06:48,900 Shawn Aylmer: My guest this morning is Andrew Hunter, chief executive of 120 00:06:48,900 --> 00:06:53,219 Shawn Aylmer: CPA, Australia. We're rapidly approaching the labor government's first federal 121 00:06:53,250 --> 00:06:56,370 Shawn Aylmer: budget. What would you like to see in that, be 122 00:06:56,370 --> 00:06:58,320 Shawn Aylmer: it in this area and beyond? 123 00:06:59,460 --> 00:07:02,849 Andrew Hunter: Well, each year we always make a pre- budget submission. 124 00:07:02,850 --> 00:07:06,420 Andrew Hunter: So CPA Australia is working on a comprehensive document that 125 00:07:06,420 --> 00:07:09,750 Andrew Hunter: we will put to ministers and departments over the next 126 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,060 Andrew Hunter: few weeks. And it would be fair to say that 127 00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:15,869 Andrew Hunter: treasurer Jim Charmers has an incredible challenge in front of 128 00:07:15,870 --> 00:07:18,810 Andrew Hunter: him. And in fact, he's been quite open about the 129 00:07:18,810 --> 00:07:22,350 Andrew Hunter: challenge that the government faces to spend on big initiatives 130 00:07:22,350 --> 00:07:26,220 Andrew Hunter: because in Australia we've got a $ 1 trillion debt bill. 131 00:07:26,670 --> 00:07:29,370 Andrew Hunter: We have never, ever had a debt of this level 132 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:33,810 Andrew Hunter: ever before. So he does have some constraints. Being realistic, 133 00:07:33,900 --> 00:07:36,450 Andrew Hunter: the budget that we see this year, I think is 134 00:07:36,450 --> 00:07:39,239 Andrew Hunter: going to be a mini budget in October. And then 135 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,630 Andrew Hunter: next year we will see the full budget, but there 136 00:07:42,630 --> 00:07:46,320 Andrew Hunter: are some quick wins that I think the government can 137 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,080 Andrew Hunter: deliver in this budget. And just to share a few 138 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,860 Andrew Hunter: of them with you, currently small businesses, when they make 139 00:07:52,860 --> 00:07:57,239 Andrew Hunter: certain investments are able to expense them immediately and we 140 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,650 Andrew Hunter: would like that made permanent. So unfortunately there's a sunset 141 00:08:01,650 --> 00:08:05,730 Andrew Hunter: date on that particular opportunity for small businesses, which is 142 00:08:05,730 --> 00:08:09,780 Andrew Hunter: the 30th of June, 2023. We would like full expensing 143 00:08:09,930 --> 00:08:13,410 Andrew Hunter: of small business investment to become permanent. And that will 144 00:08:13,410 --> 00:08:17,190 Andrew Hunter: give small businesses the confidence to invest on a regular 145 00:08:17,190 --> 00:08:22,230 Andrew Hunter: basis rather than around a specific deadline. The government's also 146 00:08:22,230 --> 00:08:27,630 Andrew Hunter: announced recently, a piece of legislation around a 1. 5, 1. 6 147 00:08:27,630 --> 00:08:31,380 Andrew Hunter: billion bonus tax offset for small businesses that are looking 148 00:08:31,380 --> 00:08:35,250 Andrew Hunter: to upgrade their technology and staff training. And you might 149 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:38,670 Andrew Hunter: recall Sean, you did a podcast with me last year 150 00:08:38,670 --> 00:08:41,460 Andrew Hunter: around a small business survey that we do in the 151 00:08:41,460 --> 00:08:46,679 Andrew Hunter: Asia Pacific. And sadly Australia gets the wooden spoon for 152 00:08:46,710 --> 00:08:50,790 Andrew Hunter: small business understanding and use of technology. And we have 153 00:08:50,790 --> 00:08:53,490 Andrew Hunter: been saying to government for some time there needs to 154 00:08:53,490 --> 00:08:56,610 Andrew Hunter: be incentives for small businesses to upgrade their technology. And 155 00:08:56,610 --> 00:08:59,220 Andrew Hunter: I think this is a really good start, but it's also 156 00:08:59,220 --> 00:09:03,240 Andrew Hunter: extended to staff training, which I think is terrific. And 157 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,520 Andrew Hunter: then the other thing that we would love to see 158 00:09:05,550 --> 00:09:08,790 Andrew Hunter: the federal government embrace is a voucher for advice scheme. 159 00:09:08,790 --> 00:09:12,569 Andrew Hunter: So to give the Victorian and Tasmania government's credit recently, 160 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,130 Andrew Hunter: the Victorian government announced a small business offer of $2, 000 161 00:09:17,490 --> 00:09:20,400 Andrew Hunter: available for them to seek professional advice. So they can 162 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,850 Andrew Hunter: go to their accountant or their business consultant or their 163 00:09:24,030 --> 00:09:28,890 Andrew Hunter: technology consultant and consultants are incredibly valuable to businesses and 164 00:09:28,890 --> 00:09:32,670 Andrew Hunter: employees. And I applaud the Victorian government and the Tasmanian 165 00:09:32,670 --> 00:09:35,790 Andrew Hunter: government for doing that. We would like that to see that 166 00:09:35,790 --> 00:09:39,929 Andrew Hunter: extended right around Australia. So there are some opportunities for 167 00:09:39,929 --> 00:09:43,110 Andrew Hunter: the government to provide some quick wins in the upcoming 168 00:09:43,110 --> 00:09:45,630 Andrew Hunter: budget. But I think we've got to recognize that big 169 00:09:45,630 --> 00:09:49,350 Andrew Hunter: initiatives are going to be constrained by the debt bill 170 00:09:49,350 --> 00:09:50,400 Andrew Hunter: that we have in Australia. 171 00:09:50,910 --> 00:09:53,550 Shawn Aylmer: And before I let you go, Andrew, because CPA Australia is 172 00:09:54,059 --> 00:09:58,109 Shawn Aylmer: an incredible organization in that it has its tentacles into 173 00:09:58,110 --> 00:10:02,130 Shawn Aylmer: so many small businesses, perhaps more than anyone else has 174 00:10:02,130 --> 00:10:04,110 Shawn Aylmer: their tentacles into small businesses just 'cause you have so 175 00:10:04,110 --> 00:10:07,800 Shawn Aylmer: many members. How do you think small businesses faring at 176 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:08,250 Shawn Aylmer: the moment? 177 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,450 Andrew Hunter: It's interesting that I think small businesses got through the 178 00:10:12,450 --> 00:10:17,190 Andrew Hunter: pandemic very well and there were some numbers released very 179 00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:20,790 Andrew Hunter: recently about the number of insolvency that we had in 180 00:10:21,179 --> 00:10:23,640 Andrew Hunter: during the course of the pandemic. And people may not 181 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,330 Andrew Hunter: be aware that insolvencies during the pandemic hit an all 182 00:10:27,330 --> 00:10:31,620 Andrew Hunter: time low. And that was because what federal government and state 183 00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:34,920 Andrew Hunter: governments did was they did their best to keep small 184 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,950 Andrew Hunter: businesses going. I don't think their job was to make 185 00:10:37,950 --> 00:10:40,350 Andrew Hunter: them prosper. It was to keep them going. And that's 186 00:10:40,770 --> 00:10:43,590 Andrew Hunter: exactly what they have done. So we've come out of 187 00:10:43,590 --> 00:10:47,220 Andrew Hunter: the pandemic, small businesses they're up and running. Their biggest 188 00:10:47,220 --> 00:10:50,490 Andrew Hunter: challenge is getting access to skilled labor. That's their biggest 189 00:10:50,490 --> 00:10:53,850 Andrew Hunter: problem. Job keeper put a lot of money in the 190 00:10:53,850 --> 00:10:56,760 Andrew Hunter: pockets of a lot of people and that money has 191 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,540 Andrew Hunter: been saved. It's interesting that interest rates have started to 192 00:11:00,540 --> 00:11:03,360 Andrew Hunter: go up, but we haven't really seen the economy slowing 193 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,400 Andrew Hunter: down yet. And I think that's because people have been 194 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,400 Andrew Hunter: drawing down on the savings they accumulated during the course 195 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,300 Andrew Hunter: of the pandemic. So at the moment, demand is not 196 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:12,720 Andrew Hunter: an issue. 197 00:11:13,170 --> 00:11:15,059 Shawn Aylmer: Andrew, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 198 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:16,230 Andrew Hunter: Thank you. 199 00:11:16,620 --> 00:11:19,680 Shawn Aylmer: That was Andrew Hunter, chief executive of CPA Australia. This was 200 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,110 Shawn Aylmer: the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every morning 201 00:11:22,110 --> 00:11:24,089 Shawn Aylmer: for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most 202 00:11:24,090 --> 00:11:27,240 Shawn Aylmer: popular business podcast. I'm Shawn Aylmer. Enjoy your day.