WEBVTT - Albo’s plan to harness the AI boom

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven Am. The

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<v Speaker 1>Prime Minister has announced a plan for how Australia approaches AI,

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<v Speaker 1>with a new office to be created overseen by him,

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<v Speaker 1>and new standards expected to be legislated early next year.

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<v Speaker 1>As part of the plan, new data centers can be

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<v Speaker 1>fast tracked, but will have to supply their own power.

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<v Speaker 1>And while the Prime Minister said that artists should be

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<v Speaker 1>able to control the use of their work, there are

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<v Speaker 1>still fears about what will happen when potential investment meets

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<v Speaker 1>copyright law. Today, chair of Digital Rights Watch Lizzie O'Shea

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<v Speaker 1>on whether the government can walk the tightrope of the

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<v Speaker 1>AI boom while protecting and benefiting all Australians. It's Thursday,

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<v Speaker 1>July sixteenth, so Lizzie, let's start with what's just been announced.

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<v Speaker 1>The Prime Minister's Office will now have direct oversight over

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<v Speaker 1>a policy. As part of this new office, the Office

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<v Speaker 1>of Artificial Intelligence.

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<v Speaker 2>Effective today, I am establishing the Office of AI in

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<v Speaker 2>my own Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. It

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<v Speaker 2>will work closely with the Minister for Industry and Innovation

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<v Speaker 2>TIMES and the Assistant Minister for Science, Technology and the

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<v Speaker 2>Digital Economy Andrew Chalton to coordinate the design of our

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<v Speaker 2>new Australian standards and to bring together the work that

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<v Speaker 2>ministers right across the government are undertaking.

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<v Speaker 1>What's your kind of initial understanding of what that's going

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<v Speaker 1>to mean.

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<v Speaker 3>It is a little unclear, but it's good in my

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<v Speaker 3>mind to see some centralization around this policy field. And

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<v Speaker 3>that's because when we talk about AI, often Australians are

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<v Speaker 3>thinking about a range of different technologies and products. They

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<v Speaker 3>might be thinking about the productivity tool that they use

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<v Speaker 3>work that's got all these supposed benefits. They might be

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<v Speaker 3>thinking about the chat pot that their kid users and

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<v Speaker 3>then their concerns about safety guide rails around that. They

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<v Speaker 3>might be thinking about how it's used in military tech. Like,

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<v Speaker 3>it's a term that covers a broad range of issues,

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<v Speaker 3>and there's some utility in having the PM step up

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<v Speaker 3>and say.

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<v Speaker 4>We're going to be the people that are centrally responsible

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<v Speaker 4>for it.

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<v Speaker 1>And so part of the announcement involves a faster approval

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<v Speaker 1>process for AO projects, including data centers, which is where

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<v Speaker 1>all the potential investment is. But there are risks that

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<v Speaker 1>come with spitting up that approval process, aren't there?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, absolutely so.

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<v Speaker 3>This is the other big component of the announcement today

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<v Speaker 3>talking about fast tracking of construction of the infrastructure that

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<v Speaker 3>supports AI technology.

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<v Speaker 2>Is not our goal to try and legislate for every

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<v Speaker 2>possible eventuality or risk. That only creates the risk of

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<v Speaker 2>Australia missing out on investment altogether. This is about having

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<v Speaker 2>the flexibility to keep with change and get out.

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<v Speaker 4>In front of it.

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<v Speaker 3>Now this is much more controversial for a variety of

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<v Speaker 3>different reasons. Obviously, data centers need to make use of

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<v Speaker 3>natural resources things like power and water, and that will

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<v Speaker 3>impact our access to this as consumers, so there's potential

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<v Speaker 3>cost of living issues and the like. There's prioritization issues

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<v Speaker 3>associated with that. There's planning issues associated with where they

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<v Speaker 3>go and the kind of construction that takes place and

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<v Speaker 3>what those resources are being diverted away from. In the

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<v Speaker 3>United States, it's been extremely controversial how these data centers

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<v Speaker 3>have been built, and often very quickly. I think it's

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<v Speaker 3>just today that New York announced the State of New

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<v Speaker 3>York announced a moratorium for twelve months on the construction

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<v Speaker 3>of data centers while they engage in a process of

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<v Speaker 3>working out how to prioritize, how to make sure community.

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<v Speaker 4>Interests are being heard.

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<v Speaker 3>So the fast tracking announcement that does bring in a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of these issues I am a bit concerned about

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<v Speaker 3>because my concern is that that might be fast tracking

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<v Speaker 3>some kind of production of infrastructure, but it is also

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<v Speaker 3>potentially a problem for accountability. You know, companies like Anthropic

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<v Speaker 3>have been sniffing around in Australia for a long time

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<v Speaker 3>now seeking to build large data centers to train their

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<v Speaker 3>models on. There's reasons why they can't do that right now,

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<v Speaker 3>but the infrastructure. They see Australia as a place where

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<v Speaker 3>the infrastructure could be hosted very effectively.

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<v Speaker 2>We have a continent to ourselves. One of our big advantages.

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<v Speaker 2>We have more than enough room for new data centers

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<v Speaker 2>without them competing with new housing. And we will work

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<v Speaker 2>with every level of government to see common sense prevail.

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<v Speaker 4>And that I.

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<v Speaker 3>Think is a source of concern for a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>people who don't want to replicate some of the problems

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<v Speaker 3>that we've seen with construction of data centers in the

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<v Speaker 3>United States, who maybe want to prioritize getting to net

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<v Speaker 3>zero having a more sustainable economy, who maybe don't necessarily

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<v Speaker 3>think that the productivity benefits or the other benefits associated

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<v Speaker 3>this technology. Are very clear that some of this is

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<v Speaker 3>quite untested, and so we're being asked to make some

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<v Speaker 3>compromises in that respect. One of my concerns is that

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<v Speaker 3>Australians are very mistrust full of AI. In global terms,

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<v Speaker 3>we rate as some of the least optimistic about this technology,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think one of the ways that we can

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<v Speaker 3>potentially get benefits from using this technology is by putting

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<v Speaker 3>trust at the center and demanding trust rather than say, working.

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<v Speaker 4>To obtain it through community consultation the like I think

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<v Speaker 4>will be a problem.

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<v Speaker 3>Fast tracking infrastructure build could increase the kind of mistrust

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<v Speaker 3>that we see for the industry and the technology.

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<v Speaker 1>And one of the other things that I think a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people are really worried about is what AI

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<v Speaker 1>is going to mean for jobs. I mean, we've just

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<v Speaker 1>had this open letter from hundreds of economists and scientists,

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<v Speaker 1>even AI executives, warning that AI could transform the world's

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<v Speaker 1>economy and potentially put a lot of people out of work.

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<v Speaker 1>So what considerations would you like to see given for

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<v Speaker 1>workers in this AI framework?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think that's critically important.

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<v Speaker 3>I think when people think about AI, they often think

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<v Speaker 3>about the potential for jobs to be lost. That's because

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of the leaders of the industry talk about

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<v Speaker 3>that a lot, right, and I do think it's worth

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<v Speaker 3>interrogating how realistic that is. There's jobs markets that disappear,

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<v Speaker 3>that come and go over periods of time.

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<v Speaker 4>With new technology.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think it necessarily means less jobs, but it

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<v Speaker 3>may well have an impact on the quality of those jobs,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think that's important to think about, right, how

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<v Speaker 3>can we make sure people still have dignity at work,

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<v Speaker 3>still do work that is meaningfully compensated, that can be

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<v Speaker 3>a livable wage, can be a life of meaning right

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<v Speaker 3>in an age in which a lot of the technology

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<v Speaker 3>is trying to take away some of the human discretion

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<v Speaker 3>and human involvement in decision making in work. So I

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<v Speaker 3>think it's important also as a source of regulation. We've

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<v Speaker 3>seen some interesting laws implemented around the world, but even

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<v Speaker 3>in New South Wales there's been an interesting law recently

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<v Speaker 3>which allows unions to have a say in how systems

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<v Speaker 3>of allocation of work making news of AI can be examined,

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<v Speaker 3>can be questioned, have some consultation and engagement with workers,

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<v Speaker 3>and that kind of engagement I think is really important.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's work that the government could do if it

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to introduce that kind of consultation engagement with the workforce.

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<v Speaker 3>There's models for that, New South Wales being one such model.

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<v Speaker 3>I think more broadly, there's a question around how you

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<v Speaker 3>ensure that the productivity benefits, the gains and the like

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<v Speaker 3>are retained in Australia, and that might be through things

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<v Speaker 3>like taxation of some of these large companies as well.

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<v Speaker 3>That's a much more tricky and contested policy space, but

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's what Australians sort of expect from their government,

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<v Speaker 3>taking on some of these large, very profitable industries.

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<v Speaker 4>And making sure that they're not.

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<v Speaker 3>Just extracting from Australian society, that they're actually returning benefit

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<v Speaker 3>to where they're creating it, which is here.

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<v Speaker 1>Still to come. Will Australian artists be protected under the

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<v Speaker 1>new AI framework, Lizzie. Can we talk about copyright, because

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<v Speaker 1>it's the most controversial and most meaningful part of this

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<v Speaker 1>entire issue. To some reports, Anthropic has already made this offer,

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<v Speaker 1>this twenty one point five billion dollar investment offer contingent

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<v Speaker 1>on changes to copyright. The Prime Minister in his speech

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<v Speaker 1>said that Australian writers and musicians, artists, journalists must retain

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<v Speaker 1>ownership of their work.

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<v Speaker 2>Our laws will spell that out plain as day. An

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<v Speaker 2>artist creative endeavor is their work and their property. No

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<v Speaker 2>companies should use Australian books, music, art or news to

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<v Speaker 2>build or train AI without the artist's control.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that will go far enough to ease

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<v Speaker 1>people's concerns around copyright?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think that's a great question.

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<v Speaker 3>So one of the issues that's in dispute, of course

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<v Speaker 3>is copyright protection that was touched on by the Prime Minister.

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<v Speaker 3>One of the barriers to training some of these models,

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<v Speaker 3>like Anthropics model, is protections for creative works that mean

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<v Speaker 3>that how they operate in places like the United States

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<v Speaker 3>wouldn't be considered legal here.

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<v Speaker 4>There's lots of things about the.

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<v Speaker 3>Current copyright regime that creatives don't like, other people don't like.

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<v Speaker 3>But there's also a really serious problem with a very

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<v Speaker 3>large companies, companies like Anthropic taking the hard work of

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<v Speaker 3>people who've done that creative labor that we all benefit from,

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<v Speaker 3>like I think aluf or, a society without artists would

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<v Speaker 3>be a terrible thing, right, and allowing those companies to

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<v Speaker 3>make immense profits and to grow immensely quickly off the

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<v Speaker 3>benefit of that work without paying compensation for it, without

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<v Speaker 3>seeking permission. I mean it should be said like copyright

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<v Speaker 3>is not just also about payment, it's also about seeking

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<v Speaker 3>permission and having that moral right is what it's called

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<v Speaker 3>in legal terms, to say how your work might be

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<v Speaker 3>used right, So it's also about creative freedom. So it

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<v Speaker 3>is a watershed moment. I think how the government responds

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<v Speaker 3>to this immense pressure from a very large company. Australia

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<v Speaker 3>has been consistent in denying that they were going to

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<v Speaker 3>tinkle with copyright laws or raise.

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<v Speaker 4>It as a possible policy alternative.

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<v Speaker 3>But as time goes on, you do wonder whether you've

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<v Speaker 3>got an unstoppable force meeting and a movable object.

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<v Speaker 4>Something's going to have to give.

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<v Speaker 3>And I also remain concerned about some of these deals

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<v Speaker 3>happening behind closed doors. There's a real incentive here to

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<v Speaker 3>disguise what is going on or to limit what the

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<v Speaker 3>public sees. And negotiations occur with these very large companies

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<v Speaker 3>who've built up a lot of capital by doing a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of different things, by being involved in media and

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<v Speaker 3>other kinds of activities, doing lots of lobbying, and so

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<v Speaker 3>then you have a deal that looks like a closed

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<v Speaker 3>door deal done and then presented to the public.

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<v Speaker 4>I can see why that would be again a source

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<v Speaker 4>of mistrust.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, If we want an industry that is trustworthy, that's

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<v Speaker 3>and a government that people have faith in will do

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<v Speaker 3>their bidding, then there's some utility in being open about

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<v Speaker 3>this and having a consultative, engaged process and bringing people

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<v Speaker 3>along the journey rather than presenting them with a done

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<v Speaker 3>deal at the end.

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to ask you a bit about lobbying. In

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<v Speaker 1>his speech, albert Ez, he referenced civil aviation in the

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<v Speaker 1>twenties and genetics in the nineties.

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<v Speaker 4>Is these kind of.

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<v Speaker 1>Comparable moments of technical revolution that the government had to address?

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<v Speaker 1>One big difference, though, is that, you know, since the

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen twenties, political lobbying has become much more organized, much

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<v Speaker 1>more sophisticated. So how powerful is the tech lobbying camber

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<v Speaker 1>now and should we be worried about how it is

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<v Speaker 1>influencing or might be influencing policy decisions.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that's a legitimate concern.

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<v Speaker 3>So people understand that large centralization of power and corporate

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<v Speaker 3>interests can have a negative impact on democracy. We've seen

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<v Speaker 3>tech globbying being very influential. There's no doubt about it

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<v Speaker 3>that they have an effective lobbying are They also are

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<v Speaker 3>quite unpopular with the public and mistrusted, so they're working

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<v Speaker 3>hard to cultivate a good relationship with lawmakers often, but

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<v Speaker 3>there's a lot of public support for strong regulation reform

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<v Speaker 3>and a lot of I think concern about tech lobbying

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<v Speaker 3>in Canberra that it would be a mistake I think

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<v Speaker 3>on the part of government to ignore and the.

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<v Speaker 1>Alb and easy government. They're pitching this as a world first.

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<v Speaker 1>How does what the Prime Minister is proposing compare to

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<v Speaker 1>how the rest of the world is tackling AI.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I saw that he talked about an office in

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<v Speaker 3>his office as being a world first in terms of

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<v Speaker 3>our regulation. There's lots of different approaches. There's lots of

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<v Speaker 3>ways in which we could pick the best bits and

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<v Speaker 3>try and import them here, and I'm pleased to see

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<v Speaker 3>that there's an acknowledgment that we've got to move towards

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<v Speaker 3>a more conscientious, centralized way of making policy in this space.

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<v Speaker 4>I think it would be.

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<v Speaker 3>A shame to not make use of some of the

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<v Speaker 3>good examples around the world that frame the technology in

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<v Speaker 3>a particular way. That focus on trusts and rights and

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<v Speaker 3>responsibility and local benefit.

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<v Speaker 1>Lizzie, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 4>Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, the Liberal Party is considering gender

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<v Speaker 1>quotas to increase the number of women in its parliamentary ranks.

0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.120
<v Speaker 1>The idea has resurfaced in a new discussion paper from

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<v Speaker 1>the Liberal Party Commission established a review what went wrong

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<v Speaker 1>after the party's federal election defeat. Liberal leader Angus Taylor

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<v Speaker 1>has opposed quotas in the past, and Nicki Winmar has

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<v Speaker 1>been removed from the AFL Hall of Fame after being

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<v Speaker 1>found guilty of three assault charges involving violence against a woman.

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<v Speaker 1>The chair of the AFL Commission says it acknowledges Windmar's

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<v Speaker 1>significant contribution to the game and his place in history,

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<v Speaker 1>but the violence against women has no place in the community,

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<v Speaker 1>in the game, or in the values the Australian Football

0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.400
<v Speaker 1>Hall of Fame seeks to uphold. I'm Ruby Jones. This

0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:50.080
<v Speaker 1>is seven am. Thanks for listening.