WEBVTT - Unmasking romance scammers: Kylee Dennis Pt.1

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed her.

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<v Speaker 1>I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty

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<v Speaker 1>five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what

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<v Speaker 1>I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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<v Speaker 1>the public into the world in which I operated. The

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<v Speaker 1>guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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<v Speaker 1>all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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<v Speaker 1>just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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<v Speaker 1>content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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<v Speaker 1>who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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<v Speaker 1>me now as I take you into this world. The

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<v Speaker 1>bad guys always target vulnerable people, and no one is

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<v Speaker 1>more vulnerable than someone looking for love. When former detective

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<v Speaker 1>Kylie Dennis found out her mum was a victim of

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<v Speaker 1>a romance scam, she decided to use her skills as

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<v Speaker 1>a detective to expose a scammer. Today, I speak with

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<v Speaker 1>Kylie about her police career and the world of romance scammers.

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<v Speaker 1>Working now as a private investigator, Kylie has made it

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<v Speaker 1>her life ambition to expose the low lives behind those

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<v Speaker 1>scams and stop them from taking advantage of vulnerable people.

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<v Speaker 1>Have a listened to what she has to say. It

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<v Speaker 1>will shock you and educate you about this growing despicable crime.

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<v Speaker 1>Kylie Dennis, welcome to I Catch Killers.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you very excited to be here. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm glad I like what we gets say they're

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<v Speaker 1>excited to. It would be terrible if oh yeah, anyway, now,

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<v Speaker 1>former detective, if you left the police you bought a pub, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>and then became a private investigator and your main focus

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<v Speaker 1>is romance scammers. Yes, absolutely, romance scams. Just give us

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<v Speaker 1>a sense of what we're talking about. If someone says

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<v Speaker 1>a romance scam, well.

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<v Speaker 2>I sort of deal with that digital romance scam, the

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<v Speaker 2>one that you go online dating profile, fake profile, You

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<v Speaker 2>engage with that profile, believing it is who they represent

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<v Speaker 2>themselves to be on a dating app, and then they

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<v Speaker 2>take you off the dating app and take you into

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<v Speaker 2>this dark world of conversations, and then you start engaging

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<v Speaker 2>with them and then send money and your world is

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<v Speaker 2>just destroyed in a very very basic way.

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<v Speaker 1>The magnitude of it, I get the sense that a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of times the romance scams, people don't want to

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<v Speaker 1>put their hand up about it. You feel like an

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<v Speaker 1>idiot if someone's someone scammed you, especially when you're vulnerable,

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<v Speaker 1>you're looking for love or looking for a companionship. But

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<v Speaker 1>what sort of scale are we talking about?

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<v Speaker 2>Look for us now it's number three in Australia, so

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<v Speaker 2>we've got the investments and then you've got business, email,

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<v Speaker 2>compromise and then romance. So worldwide we're still talking in

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<v Speaker 2>that top five scams worldwide, So we're talking billions of

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<v Speaker 2>dollars long lost. But that's that's only what's recorded because

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<v Speaker 2>I talk to a lot of victims, but they don't

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<v Speaker 2>report it, so realistically, we don't actually know the financial

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<v Speaker 2>extent and also the emotional extent, but the financial extent

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<v Speaker 2>as to what's going on. So we know that it's

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<v Speaker 2>you know, transnational organized crime. We know that the money

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<v Speaker 2>is being utilized towards the drug trade, you know, weapons, whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>but we don't actually know the actual extent of money

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<v Speaker 2>being lost, and certainly in Australia, we don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>And saying that you're not sure how much has been reported,

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<v Speaker 1>I would imagine if I naively went online dating and

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<v Speaker 1>was scammed. It's not the type of thing that you

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<v Speaker 1>put your hand up.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the hard part is that if you do get

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<v Speaker 2>scammed very much, you're upset, you're embarrassed, and it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>matter whether it's And we spoke about shopping. I love

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<v Speaker 2>online shopping. So I've been scammed with that, and I

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<v Speaker 2>tell everybody about that, but I haven't reported that, so

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and I wasn't embarrassed because that was my

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<v Speaker 2>own silly fault with a glass of wine.

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<v Speaker 1>But some of the best bargains are done when you've

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<v Speaker 1>got a glass of wine and ten o'clock at night.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yes, yes, yes, I've got to stop doing that.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's a whole different podcast. So I didn't report

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<v Speaker 2>that because I didn't need to report that, But I

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<v Speaker 2>understand was someone who's lost one hundred thousand dollars, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>that sense of shame because then they then talk about

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<v Speaker 2>how stupid they are internally, not externally what we say

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<v Speaker 2>as a community. So that's why they don't go and

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<v Speaker 2>report because it's hard to sort of then relive it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>because you've got to go through the tick the boxes.

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<v Speaker 1>Well we're not just talking financial loss here it's emotional.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's worse than the financial. So any victim

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<v Speaker 2>will talk about the emotional loss, the loss of what

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<v Speaker 2>they thought was somebody of importance in their life has

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<v Speaker 2>now on. So for them it's yes, I have lost

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<v Speaker 2>forty thousand, and that's devastating within the financial aspect, but

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<v Speaker 2>I've also now lost who I am as a person.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, what did I do wrong? So there's there

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<v Speaker 2>becomes that self blame of I'm stupid, I'm dumb, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and we all do silly things in our life. But

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<v Speaker 2>we can move on from that scam. Victims take a

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<v Speaker 2>long time to actually accept that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, to be a victim, there's a vulnerability to start with,

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<v Speaker 1>isn't it? And that and I'm talking in a general

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<v Speaker 1>sense here, but if it's loneliness and someone's looking for companionship,

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<v Speaker 1>they're not in a good starting point. And then to

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<v Speaker 1>find that you have been manipulated, I can imagine that

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<v Speaker 1>it would take a long time to reset your life

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<v Speaker 1>after something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>I would actually say, some of them, don't you know

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<v Speaker 2>it is a real challenge because there's no there's no

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<v Speaker 2>direct processes for them to go to, Like I you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I will say to them, look, you know you need

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<v Speaker 2>to go and seek help. Three your GP, go and

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<v Speaker 2>find a counselor who is understanding of that trauma. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we've sent victims of crime to counselors when they've been

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<v Speaker 2>severely assaulted, etc. And I think counselors can understand that.

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<v Speaker 2>But this is like a this is a digital crime,

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<v Speaker 2>so this is another another whole different world. So you

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<v Speaker 2>try to get them down that path, but then they've

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<v Speaker 2>sort of got to accept that they have been a

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<v Speaker 2>victim of a crime to start off with. To then

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<v Speaker 2>go and get help. You know, it's a real challenge

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<v Speaker 2>to sort of get them out of that dark.

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't think we fully appreciate it because quite

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<v Speaker 1>often the times that you're exposed, unless it's someone that

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<v Speaker 1>you know, to a romance scam, it's a segment on

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<v Speaker 1>the Current Affair or a show like that. And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sure like all of us, and this is something that

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<v Speaker 1>hopefully we dispel today when we discuss how cunning those

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<v Speaker 1>scammers are, but we all sit there and think, how

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<v Speaker 1>could that person be so stupid? Absolutely, yeah, it is

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<v Speaker 1>it just women or men as.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, both both, and I think it's equal within you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not I might be talking fifty one forty nine

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<v Speaker 2>that type of but it is an equal, an equal

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<v Speaker 2>sort of playing field for both sides. And they still

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<v Speaker 2>they equally don't report. And I think the statistics women

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<v Speaker 2>lose more, men report more so. And I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>our DNA as women that we you know, we become

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<v Speaker 2>that sense of shame or women not not saying that

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<v Speaker 2>you guys don't carry shame.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to a lot of things. I'll argue

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<v Speaker 1>that point. I just don't want to talk about shame.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right either, do I. But okay, again that's another podcast. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's interesting and I don't know why. I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>whether is it is it internally with a female that

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<v Speaker 2>they don't report as much as what a man. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not too sure why that is all my female victims

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<v Speaker 2>have not report. And that is that deep sense of family,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the internal fight within within themselves. The men

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<v Speaker 2>sort of go oh, after they've accepted, they go, okay, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I think I have to, you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, And it's interesting. I don't know I'm surmising here,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think you see a man, elderly man and

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<v Speaker 1>all of a sudden, a young attractive woman's fallen madly

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<v Speaker 1>in love with him online, and it's almost like the

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<v Speaker 1>men culture can almost laugh at each other about it. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>I got taken for a ride there. Yes, probably it's

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<v Speaker 1>more deep when women have genuinely looking for the love

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<v Speaker 1>of the companionship, and that might be why they sit

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<v Speaker 1>on it more so than the men.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think so. Look, I talked the other day

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<v Speaker 2>about that that you know, the Halo buyers, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we all have that within ourselves, you know, and within

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<v Speaker 2>that romance world. Well that exacerbates a bit more because

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<v Speaker 2>there's someone that's come online and usually they look you know, trustworthy,

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<v Speaker 2>so you know, and as a female you sort of

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<v Speaker 2>look at that and go, well, if you're here's this photo,

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<v Speaker 2>you look trustworthy, or you might be a doctor, whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>so then we'll engage with that. Where if it was

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<v Speaker 2>at a bar, at a pub, there is a high

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<v Speaker 2>likelihood that not being disrespectful. But a seventy eight year

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<v Speaker 2>old woman is not going to go up to somebody

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<v Speaker 2>who is, you know, in their mid thirties.

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<v Speaker 1>That's whereas our spokesly us possibly have a stupid enough

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<v Speaker 1>to think, yeah, I'll have it go okay, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>well this is about romance. I want an attack on

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<v Speaker 1>how stupid some minutes, some not all, some only some.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we go further down the rabbit hole of romance scheme,

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<v Speaker 1>let's talk about you for a bit. And because you're

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<v Speaker 1>a police officer for what fourteen early fourteen, when did

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<v Speaker 1>you join and why so?

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<v Speaker 2>I joined in nineteen eighty nine, and I joined because

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<v Speaker 2>I was raised as a copper's kid. So when I

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<v Speaker 2>was about eleven twelve, an incident happened at our house

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<v Speaker 2>where our neighbor was shot on our doorsteps and she's

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<v Speaker 2>fived and I watched. I went out there and I

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<v Speaker 2>placed a towel over the wound of the victim, and

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<v Speaker 2>then I watched. The cops were in a very small

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<v Speaker 2>country town, and how they worked was just brilliant. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't have mobile phones back then, so when the

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<v Speaker 2>shooting had happened, Dad gone outside, retrieved the firearm, bought

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<v Speaker 2>it inside and had to go to the phone that

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<v Speaker 2>was on the wall. Everybody turned up in the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>all the cops turned up because of detective sergeants shooting,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was an interesting process watching how they all worked.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, there was no way I was doing anything

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<v Speaker 2>with medical because that was just too hard. But it

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<v Speaker 2>was just it was a well oiled machine.

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<v Speaker 1>Seeing how the police is.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's great. They really came together. It was structure

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<v Speaker 2>only twelve, but I just really went this is pretty good.

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<v Speaker 2>This is cool.

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<v Speaker 1>If you suppose that's a lot of criticism of police

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<v Speaker 1>by the public and different places, but when the ship

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<v Speaker 1>goes down, the police are the ones that have got

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<v Speaker 1>to respond. And saw that. Where was that? Can you say?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, so that was at Wentworth, so very small

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<v Speaker 2>country town on the border of Victoria and South Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>Tiny little country town. It was just the best life.

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<v Speaker 2>Back again, we're talking back in the olden days where

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<v Speaker 2>we got to climb trees and everything. But it was

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<v Speaker 2>a great lifestyle. And being raised as a copper's kid

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<v Speaker 2>in the country town. You know, your friends were the

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<v Speaker 2>coppers kids.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>We I spend many time sitting in the cells, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the old police for paying the old police blankets. They

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<v Speaker 2>all have a smell. I can still to this day

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<v Speaker 2>remember that that smell. It was just a good life

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<v Speaker 2>and we all got on. They all got on, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean the kids got on well, but the husband

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<v Speaker 2>wives got on well. It was just you know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not going to dismiss about it was a hard life

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<v Speaker 2>back then too, because of course Dad was the only one.

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<v Speaker 2>Dad was the detective sergeant, so of course he was

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<v Speaker 2>always off doing something. And I just looked at that

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<v Speaker 2>and went, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I want that, Okay, I really want that. That's interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>So when you joined the police in eighty nine, the

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<v Speaker 1>academy down at Golbin, how do you enjoy you loved it?

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<v Speaker 2>I would say that that. I was talking to an

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<v Speaker 2>ex cop the other day. We talked about that. You know,

0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:38.320
<v Speaker 2>back then we were on the ladder of where we stood.

0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:42.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, students were below police dogs. But they trained

0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:45.800
<v Speaker 2>us hard, and that was for a purpose because once

0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:48.320
<v Speaker 2>you left, you're not going out there for fairy tales,

0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, and lollipops and everything. You're going out into

0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:55.080
<v Speaker 2>a very hard world. And I love that. I love

0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.320
<v Speaker 2>that style of training. I like that and want to

0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:02.079
<v Speaker 2>call it military style of training. Ever, you don't want

0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:03.320
<v Speaker 2>to use the word bastonization.

0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:05.720
<v Speaker 3>But it had a purpose, but there was there was

0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.640
<v Speaker 3>a degree that it needed to be because I liken

0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.839
<v Speaker 3>it too, and I'm not sure how it plays out now,

0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:17.120
<v Speaker 3>but break you down, which they did and then rebuild you.

0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.440
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, A taught resilience.

0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.840
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, And I think I don't know how training is,

0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:25.960
<v Speaker 2>so I don't want to criticize it now, but I

0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.640
<v Speaker 2>think that if you've changed the training and make it

0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.920
<v Speaker 2>all fairy dust and perfect, you're doing the wrong thing

0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.120
<v Speaker 2>to the student because you have to be taken to

0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.640
<v Speaker 2>your core. And then, like you said, rebuilt. It was

0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:43.880
<v Speaker 2>hard and there was nothing. I loved it. There is

0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.600
<v Speaker 2>nothing negative I can talk about six months training down there.

0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:48.920
<v Speaker 2>I loved every bit of it and we were pushed

0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.600
<v Speaker 2>to it and I wasn't physically fit, but I wasn't in

0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.480
<v Speaker 2>the F Troop. The boys in the F Troop, my god,

0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:56.160
<v Speaker 2>I cannot blame We had that. Remember you have T

0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:58.320
<v Speaker 2>shirts made up. Oh my god, they were the great

0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:02.360
<v Speaker 2>thing F Troop And you know when I was running,

0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.040
<v Speaker 2>they would be behind me and they would say the

0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:09.960
<v Speaker 2>most awful things to get my lazy ass over because

0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:11.720
<v Speaker 2>we had to do it in a time. But it

0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:15.719
<v Speaker 2>was great. We worked together as a team and I

0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.240
<v Speaker 2>love those blokes for it. I love that. I mean,

0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.800
<v Speaker 2>there was only three women in our in our F

0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:25.360
<v Speaker 2>Troope but we work together perfectly, and that's and that's

0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:26.600
<v Speaker 2>what team works on.

0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:29.520
<v Speaker 1>You need to work as a team when you're out

0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.800
<v Speaker 1>on the out on the streets. Absolutely, so okay, your

0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.600
<v Speaker 1>fresh face, you got your shiny new uniform on, and.

0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Spit polish boots, get the spit.

0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.520
<v Speaker 1>How much of a pain was that you weren't allowed

0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:43.800
<v Speaker 1>to do it in your room? If you did?

0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:48.400
<v Speaker 2>And then with the cigarette lighter, oh my goodness, the things.

0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:50.240
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know where they do that now too,

0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:51.960
<v Speaker 2>but I had We had a lot of pride with that.

0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.640
<v Speaker 1>Well I can't imagine, but you would stand the attension

0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.080
<v Speaker 1>they're coming in and inspecting how you made your bed.

0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.880
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely like I don't know whether they do that, No,

0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:04.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, but I laugh about it now.

0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.840
<v Speaker 1>But it was fun. It was because we're all winging

0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.720
<v Speaker 1>about whether your bed's being made properly or your boots

0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:10.240
<v Speaker 1>have been paid.

0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:12.440
<v Speaker 2>You stood out front of your room and you made

0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:16.160
<v Speaker 2>sure they came through. It was Christine, and your uniform

0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:20.600
<v Speaker 2>was ironed perfectly. Everything was. But that's that's what it

0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.720
<v Speaker 2>was meant to be. They were, you know, sinning.

0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, I would have felt cheated if it wasn't that way,

0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.360
<v Speaker 1>I thought, you're going to the academy, that that's what

0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 1>you expected delivered. How was your your experiences out on

0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:36.080
<v Speaker 1>the street when you started.

0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.320
<v Speaker 2>Look, I went to marrackvill and that was that was

0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:44.440
<v Speaker 2>a really hard patrol. Again, we're in a patrol which

0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:49.120
<v Speaker 2>there are only five women, and I think we may

0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:54.400
<v Speaker 2>have been under the students on the on the ladder

0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.400
<v Speaker 2>of where we where we fit within the organization. Which

0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:00.920
<v Speaker 2>was fine because I went in there with that belief. Well,

0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, you needed to work hard to prove that

0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.160
<v Speaker 2>you were, you know, a member of this team. Basically

0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:08.880
<v Speaker 2>a couple of things that sort of weren't to Marrafa

0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.600
<v Speaker 2>wasn't the greatest. Oh no, it was good, but it

0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.600
<v Speaker 2>had a few sprinkles of not good.

0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:20.800
<v Speaker 1>And well, it was a different world. It was a

0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:25.240
<v Speaker 1>different policing. Policing was different, but society was also different.

0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.000
<v Speaker 1>What went down at the police stations back in those

0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:33.200
<v Speaker 1>days wouldn't stand up to any scrutiny, but in the

0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.840
<v Speaker 1>same regards, it was the values of the society at

0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:36.360
<v Speaker 1>the time.

0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.640
<v Speaker 2>But it also certain parts of it. So I did

0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.240
<v Speaker 2>a piece the other day about community based policing and

0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:44.880
<v Speaker 2>I remember back then walking the beach. And I know

0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.720
<v Speaker 2>we can't do that now because we're understaffed and all that.

0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.360
<v Speaker 2>But back then, we went to the pubs, We sat

0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:55.240
<v Speaker 2>down with the licensee who just happened to know everything

0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.320
<v Speaker 2>that fell off the back of a truck. We went

0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.400
<v Speaker 2>to the local shops and we had coffee, or we'd

0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.640
<v Speaker 2>go down the street and meet up with Mary, who's

0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.160
<v Speaker 2>there is I need to tell you something? Come inside.

0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.560
<v Speaker 2>But we gathered intel, and we gathered in a very

0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:14.440
<v Speaker 2>basic way, but that intel formed amazing jobs that created

0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:16.240
<v Speaker 2>lockups that were brilliant.

0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.639
<v Speaker 1>I was always always surprised where a crime had happened,

0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.680
<v Speaker 1>and detectives or police that have been in the area

0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.160
<v Speaker 1>for a long time would go out or instantaneously say

0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.080
<v Speaker 1>this is where we've got to go these people who

0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.240
<v Speaker 1>have done it. And that's that type of community policing.

0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.480
<v Speaker 2>And I think and that's where we fail a little

0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:36.639
<v Speaker 2>bit more now that we don't want to do. You know,

0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:40.120
<v Speaker 2>sitting in the pub is deemed as you know corruption

0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.399
<v Speaker 2>or you know, even going to in Marricko, they'd have

0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.440
<v Speaker 2>the closing down of you know KFC, I mean high

0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:50.880
<v Speaker 2>end food quality, you know, like so good, so they'd

0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.920
<v Speaker 2>either you know, you're ring the local cops, the local fires,

0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:57.000
<v Speaker 2>or the ambos and they do a rotation. We've got

0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:02.800
<v Speaker 2>leftover buckets of chicken. You like some chicken, like high

0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.520
<v Speaker 2>end stuff. But you know, but that's we'd be out

0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.400
<v Speaker 2>patrolling and doing stuff. Yeah, sure, why not, let's pick

0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:08.719
<v Speaker 2>that up.

0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:10.960
<v Speaker 1>You had your finger on the pulse on what was

0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:12.920
<v Speaker 1>going on in the community.

0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.399
<v Speaker 2>Everything, and we knew where the bad boys were. We

0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.520
<v Speaker 2>knew that, well, we'll keep an eye on them tonight.

0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:20.879
<v Speaker 2>We know that they are there. Intel has said that,

0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:23.680
<v Speaker 2>you know they're going to be thinking of doing something,

0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:26.000
<v Speaker 2>we'll just back off here, you know. So it was

0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.920
<v Speaker 2>just I think it was a very well oiled machine

0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.680
<v Speaker 2>back then. But again, we didn't have phones, social media,

0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.919
<v Speaker 2>we didn't have any of that. But policing was policing,

0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.640
<v Speaker 2>and it was it was good, it was hard, and

0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:41.600
<v Speaker 2>you still had to run after them.

0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:45.439
<v Speaker 1>And I like the fact that they're sitting down speaking

0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:47.879
<v Speaker 1>to a former cop that enjoyed it, because I still

0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:51.160
<v Speaker 1>think it's one of the world's best jobs policing.

0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.320
<v Speaker 2>For me today, it is one of the saddest things

0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.480
<v Speaker 2>that I never got to spend more time than what

0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:02.800
<v Speaker 2>I did I still to this day bleed blue no

0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:03.280
<v Speaker 2>matter what.

0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can see in the way that you're talking

0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:10.800
<v Speaker 1>about your body language that you enjoyed it. Detectives. How

0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.920
<v Speaker 1>did that start? Because you went into a listing, which

0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:16.800
<v Speaker 1>is preparing the pectique.

0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.760
<v Speaker 2>So I started. I sort of put my foot in it.

0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.679
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to do it in Marritam when I was junior,

0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.359
<v Speaker 2>and then that happened when I went into Flemington. I

0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:28.320
<v Speaker 2>sort of put my hand up then and said I'd

0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.720
<v Speaker 2>like to sort of do that a list and go

0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:32.440
<v Speaker 2>through the ball ring and all that sort of stuff.

0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:36.359
<v Speaker 2>So that was that slow process there, and I've trained

0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:41.040
<v Speaker 2>at that stage. I did the Special Forces Undercover Commercial

0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.439
<v Speaker 2>course for the operation for us to do three months

0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.240
<v Speaker 2>in a pawn shop. So I did that, and then

0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:50.159
<v Speaker 2>I went and trained in the negotiators as well, and

0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.159
<v Speaker 2>then that sort of all just I don't know, it

0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:53.800
<v Speaker 2>was like my.

0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:56.439
<v Speaker 3>Next you got the taste taste of it.

0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.360
<v Speaker 2>The next step was I knew I was always going

0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:01.520
<v Speaker 2>to be detective, and without me knowing, I sort of

0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:02.720
<v Speaker 2>followed my dad's footsteps.

0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:02.960
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.840
<v Speaker 2>He worked at Newtown, he was at twenty one Division.

0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:08.399
<v Speaker 2>I was at Marrickville. I went to Flemington. Dad was

0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:10.239
<v Speaker 2>at Flemington. Then he went to all and like I

0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:13.080
<v Speaker 2>wasn't sort of realizing that that was the steps that

0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:14.960
<v Speaker 2>I was taking. He went to the crime squad and

0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.760
<v Speaker 2>all that. So I knew that that's what I wanted

0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:20.800
<v Speaker 2>to do from the moment I joined the cops. I

0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:21.880
<v Speaker 2>was going to be detective.

0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:26.399
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's talk about the pawn shop. When you're working

0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.440
<v Speaker 1>undercover there, I'd like that operation that was And we're

0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:37.320
<v Speaker 1>just clarify when we're talking porn aw PA W undercover

0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:41.000
<v Speaker 1>in porn, it sounds that's a shame. I'm sure that

0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.359
<v Speaker 1>listeners would have loved to hear about working undercovering the

0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:45.280
<v Speaker 1>pornorn shop.

0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:47.560
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I always have to say, hey, people go,

0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.119
<v Speaker 2>why are you spelling it out? So think about it.

0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:54.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm not It's not a pawn like O r N.

0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how that would have worked with a

0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.360
<v Speaker 2>high crime rate around, you know, in a city Sydney.

0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.040
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, Yeah, that was but yeah, that was an

0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:03.760
<v Speaker 2>interesting three months operation.

0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:06.639
<v Speaker 1>Tell us about that because I remember when that was

0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:09.359
<v Speaker 1>going down. I think it was Phil Mehan and Martin

0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.600
<v Speaker 1>Slott from the region I was working in, were involved

0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:14.959
<v Speaker 1>in it. There would have been a few others, Yes,

0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.280
<v Speaker 1>explain it because it was at the time I thought

0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:23.720
<v Speaker 1>the novel idea and I subsequently had a former law

0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:27.320
<v Speaker 1>enforcement officer from the US and they got great results

0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.520
<v Speaker 1>with that type of operation. So tell us about that.

0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.000
<v Speaker 2>It was the first of its kind in Australia. So

0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:38.440
<v Speaker 2>we had four shops, so the four regions, three operatives

0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:42.000
<v Speaker 2>in each region, and we just opened up this daggy

0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:44.320
<v Speaker 2>pawn shop on the side street because we had high

0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:48.800
<v Speaker 2>instance of breacan Enna's robbery anything that was within the

0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:52.280
<v Speaker 2>property fences and was out of control. And I do

0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.760
<v Speaker 2>believe it may have started in the UK on a

0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:59.480
<v Speaker 2>smaller level. And whoever came up and said, well, here's

0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:03.160
<v Speaker 2>a great initiative. We will open up four pawn shops

0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:06.280
<v Speaker 2>and we will collect everything. And we did. We collected

0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.200
<v Speaker 2>everything that was legitimate and also stolen.

0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:14.359
<v Speaker 1>And then you know, so basically I understand pawn shops

0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:16.840
<v Speaker 1>and how they work, but it's where people come in

0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:20.600
<v Speaker 1>with property, yes, that they want to sell the property

0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:23.320
<v Speaker 1>or hock the property there and come back and buy it,

0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:23.680
<v Speaker 1>buy it.

0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:24.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:28.600
<v Speaker 1>And at the time you're talking about the amount of

0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:32.200
<v Speaker 1>stolen properties, Heroin was still in the streets. Robbery breaking

0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.960
<v Speaker 1>in as were a big fige. So someone that breaking

0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:37.560
<v Speaker 1>and steal the VCR and take it to the local

0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:41.160
<v Speaker 1>pawn shop or jewelry. And you guys were in there

0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:45.600
<v Speaker 1>pretending to be just the daggy type people that are

0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.800
<v Speaker 1>running a pawn shop and dealing with these people and

0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:51.360
<v Speaker 1>asking where did you get that from?

0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:54.320
<v Speaker 2>And because they would just they would just talk to

0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:57.200
<v Speaker 2>you because you'd be sitting down with them, and they'd

0:22:57.240 --> 0:22:59.639
<v Speaker 2>come in a couple of times, and some were legitimate people.

0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:01.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, you just said, oh, okay, I just want

0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:05.359
<v Speaker 2>to put this for three months. And we ran the

0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:08.360
<v Speaker 2>business like a business, so you still had a ticket everything,

0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:10.240
<v Speaker 2>so people still had to have that if they wanted

0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:12.000
<v Speaker 2>to just get a bit of a loan, and we

0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:13.639
<v Speaker 2>had to do the loan and everything. We had to

0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.040
<v Speaker 2>cash everything up, so it was really like a proper business.

0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.560
<v Speaker 2>But we also knew when you know, naughty Fred came in,

0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:22.560
<v Speaker 2>we knew, okay, he's done a break an enner. And

0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.639
<v Speaker 2>slowly they'd start telling a bit more information. So of

0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:29.199
<v Speaker 2>course then you're creating intel reports, your understanding processes. You

0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:32.959
<v Speaker 2>understand exactly what they're doing, and we just kept all

0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:35.360
<v Speaker 2>the property and everyone got it back, well most people

0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:37.240
<v Speaker 2>got it back. I mean that was another process to

0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:39.400
<v Speaker 2>then give it all back to the owners.

0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:44.159
<v Speaker 1>Well, I remember there was a big resolution day where

0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:47.680
<v Speaker 1>we got called in people not working on the actual operation.

0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:50.359
<v Speaker 1>There's a job. Everyone needs to be in here at

0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:52.880
<v Speaker 1>five am in the morning. We'll tell you what about then,

0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:55.360
<v Speaker 1>And we got handed briefs of evidence. And I still

0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:58.080
<v Speaker 1>remember locking up people and it was I shouldn't say

0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:01.440
<v Speaker 1>fun people, but it was fun because we got fatos

0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:03.800
<v Speaker 1>of the people coming in the store the properly if so,

0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:07.119
<v Speaker 1>knock on the door and yeah, where'd you get this from?

0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:09.240
<v Speaker 1>And so many people got locked up. Ye from it,

0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:09.800
<v Speaker 1>didn't they.

0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:13.320
<v Speaker 2>And they knew they had no way of saying no, no, no,

0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:17.480
<v Speaker 2>because everything was there, everything was digitized, everything was recorded,

0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:22.240
<v Speaker 2>and I don't believe our statements were anything too big.

0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:25.720
<v Speaker 2>I think we were. We just did more more contemporarious

0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:29.160
<v Speaker 2>notes at that time because everything was recorded anyway. So

0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:32.240
<v Speaker 2>it was a great operation. It was a very successful operation,

0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:35.199
<v Speaker 2>my belief was very successful. I know. After that I

0:24:35.240 --> 0:24:39.000
<v Speaker 2>went to another one Northern Beaches. That was a flow

0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:41.679
<v Speaker 2>on effect from that, so and more of more of

0:24:41.720 --> 0:24:44.000
<v Speaker 2>that investigative side, not the undercover side.

0:24:44.080 --> 0:24:48.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, so you enjoyed doing that covert work?

0:24:49.400 --> 0:24:53.159
<v Speaker 2>No, not really, well, no that was fun. I was

0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:56.240
<v Speaker 2>never and I remember training doing undercover. Look, I was

0:24:56.280 --> 0:25:01.320
<v Speaker 2>never good at drugs, I'd be honestly. That was just no, no, no,

0:25:01.400 --> 0:25:04.560
<v Speaker 2>give me jewelry, give me clothing. I just was never

0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:08.280
<v Speaker 2>going to be a drug operative. And we had a

0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:09.919
<v Speaker 2>couple of had a girl trained with this and she

0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:12.359
<v Speaker 2>was a tiny little thing and i'man tiny and I

0:25:12.400 --> 0:25:14.159
<v Speaker 2>used to say to them, well, I'm too fat to

0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:18.120
<v Speaker 2>be a druggie. I can't be. I do not look

0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:20.159
<v Speaker 2>like a heroin junkie. There was never going to be

0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:22.600
<v Speaker 2>any reason for me to look like a heroin junkie.

0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:24.960
<v Speaker 2>So I was never going to go down that path.

0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:29.200
<v Speaker 2>I played a role with a couple of girls who

0:25:29.880 --> 0:25:34.199
<v Speaker 2>sorry a girl who was doing the heroin side of

0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:36.760
<v Speaker 2>it all and trying to get all that sort of stuff,

0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:38.919
<v Speaker 2>and I did a couple of jobs in the cross

0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:42.840
<v Speaker 2>with that wasn't my jam. Sort of, We got ourselves

0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:45.119
<v Speaker 2>into a bit of a tight spot with a couple

0:25:45.119 --> 0:25:48.080
<v Speaker 2>of blokes who were very bad people, and I thought

0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:49.000
<v Speaker 2>this is not going to.

0:25:49.080 --> 0:25:51.800
<v Speaker 1>It is a fine fine line. You've got the work,

0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:56.800
<v Speaker 1>especially as a female in that environment undercover operative. Yeah, well,

0:25:56.840 --> 0:25:58.280
<v Speaker 1>you know what the blokes are after, and.

0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:02.080
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and that's what they're after. And it was we're

0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:04.720
<v Speaker 2>in a bit of try, We're a bit of strife here. Okay,

0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:06.920
<v Speaker 2>we need to talk ourselves out of this. We need

0:26:06.960 --> 0:26:08.879
<v Speaker 2>to and we did and we got ourselves out and

0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:10.399
<v Speaker 2>we walked down the street and it was sort of like,

0:26:11.320 --> 0:26:13.720
<v Speaker 2>thank god, Okay, that one was a bit that one's

0:26:13.720 --> 0:26:15.199
<v Speaker 2>a bit hairy. But we had to go back the

0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:17.400
<v Speaker 2>next night. So there was a reason. We knew that

0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:22.119
<v Speaker 2>the offender was committing Oh, he had committed a homicide.

0:26:22.440 --> 0:26:24.760
<v Speaker 2>There was something more there, but there was drugs involved,

0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:28.320
<v Speaker 2>and it was just like, okay, this is huge, this

0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:30.919
<v Speaker 2>is this is huge. This one was like and I

0:26:31.000 --> 0:26:32.440
<v Speaker 2>knew that at that stage I was marriage, so I

0:26:32.480 --> 0:26:34.880
<v Speaker 2>couldn't tell my husband. He knew that I was doing

0:26:35.359 --> 0:26:37.639
<v Speaker 2>an undercover job, but I said, I can't tell you anything.

0:26:37.640 --> 0:26:39.160
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't even tell him when I got home went

0:26:39.560 --> 0:26:42.879
<v Speaker 2>oh that was oh, that was that was that was close.

0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:45.680
<v Speaker 1>That was okay, exciting, but maybe.

0:26:46.000 --> 0:26:48.679
<v Speaker 2>Maybe a little bit so that wasn't my jam. I

0:26:48.720 --> 0:26:51.919
<v Speaker 2>sort of just didn't think that that was Yeah, I

0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:53.320
<v Speaker 2>couldn't do that for months on end.

0:26:53.680 --> 0:26:56.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, you also had a shot that in negost

0:26:56.720 --> 0:26:58.520
<v Speaker 1>I love that tell us about that.

0:26:58.600 --> 0:27:02.399
<v Speaker 2>They are just most amazing team. You know, there's a

0:27:02.440 --> 0:27:05.520
<v Speaker 2>team of You've got your four with your you know,

0:27:05.600 --> 0:27:08.480
<v Speaker 2>your your bosses and everything, and you know you're on

0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:11.600
<v Speaker 2>call every six weeks. And you know, I used to

0:27:11.960 --> 0:27:14.359
<v Speaker 2>I've been called to go to Bankstown Airport where I

0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:17.200
<v Speaker 2>jump on the plane with the and they were men

0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:19.760
<v Speaker 2>boys in black, then with the police dog and then

0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:21.800
<v Speaker 2>you've got this tiny little plane and you have to

0:27:21.800 --> 0:27:25.600
<v Speaker 2>fly to Orange. I mean, it was just that is

0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:29.000
<v Speaker 2>a magical team. I mean, I'm sure they're still they're

0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:33.560
<v Speaker 2>magical today. They work hard. You know, we're smart, we

0:27:33.640 --> 0:27:36.280
<v Speaker 2>know what we need to achieve. We achieve it together

0:27:36.320 --> 0:27:38.080
<v Speaker 2>as a team. You know, you're still at your prime

0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:41.800
<v Speaker 2>and your secondary, your intel, You've got your doctor, like

0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:45.240
<v Speaker 2>everybody was there and the boss were just the boss

0:27:45.280 --> 0:27:49.440
<v Speaker 2>was always there. So it was one of the saddest

0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:52.320
<v Speaker 2>things that I lost when I left the cops.

0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:55.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know you're and you're involved in the thig

0:27:55.800 --> 0:27:57.479
<v Speaker 1>of it. I was in the tactical side of it.

0:27:57.560 --> 0:27:59.400
<v Speaker 1>So I was laying out in the bushwai. You guys

0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:02.800
<v Speaker 1>are a talk talking about talking to the crooks. But

0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:06.479
<v Speaker 1>you're getting a first class seat in some of the

0:28:06.520 --> 0:28:09.000
<v Speaker 1>big crimes that are going down and big things, so

0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:11.480
<v Speaker 1>I can imagine the excitement. It is a lot of

0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:12.320
<v Speaker 1>pressure there too.

0:28:12.359 --> 0:28:15.560
<v Speaker 2>But especially there was a job. There was a job

0:28:15.600 --> 0:28:19.719
<v Speaker 2>in Northern Beaches and he had taken hostage his girlfriend

0:28:20.000 --> 0:28:22.959
<v Speaker 2>and he had a knife and he was harming her

0:28:23.000 --> 0:28:26.280
<v Speaker 2>whilest they were talking. And that was a very intense job,

0:28:26.560 --> 0:28:28.280
<v Speaker 2>and it was it was a bedroom, so you know,

0:28:28.400 --> 0:28:31.760
<v Speaker 2>you guys were there, negotiators are still talking at the door.

0:28:32.000 --> 0:28:34.280
<v Speaker 2>That was a very intense job because you guys couldn't

0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:38.000
<v Speaker 2>go in there because he's got the knife. You had

0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:43.560
<v Speaker 2>no means of getting getting into that room. So you know,

0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:46.680
<v Speaker 2>you're right, you're right in the thick of everything. And

0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:48.720
<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of funny times when I did

0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:50.960
<v Speaker 2>a job where one of you guys had had a

0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:53.640
<v Speaker 2>vasectomy and he was in a lot of pain and

0:28:53.680 --> 0:28:57.600
<v Speaker 2>he's trying was funny because we're trying to negotiat he's

0:28:57.720 --> 0:29:02.200
<v Speaker 2>moaning because he's got to have an ice pack. Could hurry? Well,

0:29:02.240 --> 0:29:04.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean they were a good time.

0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:08.120
<v Speaker 1>I must must admit. Sometimes when the siege is out

0:29:08.160 --> 0:29:11.040
<v Speaker 1>in the bush where you didn't have the telephone, communication

0:29:11.160 --> 0:29:14.120
<v Speaker 1>or radio, it's on the loudhailers and laying out there

0:29:14.120 --> 0:29:17.200
<v Speaker 1>if it was cold or hot, I'm laying there. Oh,

0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:19.880
<v Speaker 1>for fox sake, give me the loudhailer. I'll talk about

0:29:20.040 --> 0:29:24.440
<v Speaker 1>because yeah, I know, you've got to just hurry, hurry,

0:29:24.640 --> 0:29:27.320
<v Speaker 1>I'd say, I know, And you've got to laugh at

0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:31.000
<v Speaker 1>the situations because some of the situations are just ridiculous

0:29:31.040 --> 0:29:32.080
<v Speaker 1>that you find yourself in.

0:29:32.440 --> 0:29:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Look. I I remember the blow a bloke sitting on

0:29:35.320 --> 0:29:39.520
<v Speaker 2>the rooftop and we would do two things that we

0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:43.640
<v Speaker 2>would smoke as a negotiator. My girlfriend she would drink

0:29:43.680 --> 0:29:46.560
<v Speaker 2>Coca cola. That was her jam. She just loved coke.

0:29:46.720 --> 0:29:50.160
<v Speaker 2>So when i'd negotiate, well, I would negotiate and I'd

0:29:50.240 --> 0:29:53.520
<v Speaker 2>have a smoke. So they'd want to smoke and come

0:29:53.560 --> 0:29:56.440
<v Speaker 2>down smoke, and so they would come down. You know,

0:29:56.600 --> 0:29:58.960
<v Speaker 2>you guys will help them down. I'd walk over there

0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:02.240
<v Speaker 2>and before you locked him up, made I promised your

0:30:02.280 --> 0:30:06.920
<v Speaker 2>cigarette here, have a smoke done easy? How easy is that? Okay?

0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:09.920
<v Speaker 2>That job's finishing there's my other time. Okay, home now.

0:30:09.960 --> 0:30:11.840
<v Speaker 2>And that's all I had to do was just to

0:30:11.880 --> 0:30:15.240
<v Speaker 2>talk them down, and most of them just wanted to talk,

0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:17.080
<v Speaker 2>you know. I mean, there were some sad ones on

0:30:17.120 --> 0:30:20.680
<v Speaker 2>the gap and you know, things like that. But the negotiators,

0:30:20.800 --> 0:30:24.040
<v Speaker 2>they're just a great bunch, that whole that whole team,

0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:26.600
<v Speaker 2>you guys and us. It just worked well.

0:30:26.680 --> 0:30:29.520
<v Speaker 1>Now I can understand why it would have been hard

0:30:29.640 --> 0:30:31.840
<v Speaker 1>leaving that. Why did you leave?

0:30:32.400 --> 0:30:35.720
<v Speaker 2>So? I had my second baby, and we had a

0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:38.520
<v Speaker 2>few issues with child care at that time for my

0:30:38.560 --> 0:30:41.200
<v Speaker 2>second one, and my husband had just bought a pub,

0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:43.640
<v Speaker 2>so he was working long hours, and I didn't have

0:30:43.680 --> 0:30:46.000
<v Speaker 2>any family down there at that stage. So I asked

0:30:46.000 --> 0:30:49.400
<v Speaker 2>the cops for an extension. I wanted either another six

0:30:49.480 --> 0:30:52.280
<v Speaker 2>months leave without pay, or could I just come back

0:30:52.360 --> 0:30:55.040
<v Speaker 2>part time, just for six months, just so we could

0:30:55.040 --> 0:30:57.600
<v Speaker 2>sort of get a few things organized, and they knocked

0:30:57.600 --> 0:31:01.400
<v Speaker 2>me back on both. And I couldn't go back full

0:31:01.440 --> 0:31:03.280
<v Speaker 2>time because at that stage I was on care for

0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:06.280
<v Speaker 2>child protection, so I still had to do that. I

0:31:06.320 --> 0:31:08.360
<v Speaker 2>could have given up the negotiators, but that was sort

0:31:08.360 --> 0:31:10.360
<v Speaker 2>of that was like chopping off my arms, and I

0:31:10.400 --> 0:31:13.160
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to do that, so I resigned and I

0:31:13.160 --> 0:31:16.320
<v Speaker 2>remember driving to Congrad to give my badge over and

0:31:16.760 --> 0:31:19.520
<v Speaker 2>I just cried and cried.

0:31:20.160 --> 0:31:23.560
<v Speaker 1>I think we lose out in There should be more flexibility,

0:31:23.560 --> 0:31:25.920
<v Speaker 1>and I'm not sure where it is now, but more

0:31:25.960 --> 0:31:30.000
<v Speaker 1>flexibility in people just having career breaks and yeah, because

0:31:30.440 --> 0:31:32.000
<v Speaker 1>the way the police is set up, you leave the

0:31:32.040 --> 0:31:34.760
<v Speaker 1>police and you're out and you can you can't come

0:31:34.760 --> 0:31:36.160
<v Speaker 1>back in, or you come back in, You've got to

0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:37.160
<v Speaker 1>start at the bottom again.

0:31:37.360 --> 0:31:39.440
<v Speaker 2>And I found that hard because I wanted to come

0:31:39.480 --> 0:31:41.280
<v Speaker 2>back in and I didn't want to give up my

0:31:41.480 --> 0:31:44.440
<v Speaker 2>detective status because I'd worked really hard for that. And

0:31:44.480 --> 0:31:47.560
<v Speaker 2>I still you know, I still have that same mindset

0:31:47.600 --> 0:31:50.040
<v Speaker 2>today and we're talking twenty years ago. I still think

0:31:50.120 --> 0:31:53.000
<v Speaker 2>exactly the way that they trained me in the cops,

0:31:53.280 --> 0:31:54.400
<v Speaker 2>I haven't lost that. Well.

0:31:54.880 --> 0:31:59.080
<v Speaker 1>We're struggling for policing across the country, not just New

0:31:59.120 --> 0:32:02.600
<v Speaker 1>South Wales. I think if we had that flexibility, there's plenty.

0:32:03.280 --> 0:32:07.400
<v Speaker 1>I saw so many police mid career leave the police

0:32:07.440 --> 0:32:10.200
<v Speaker 1>for whatever reason. They hit the wall, they needed a

0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:12.720
<v Speaker 1>break and they're angry at the cops and they left,

0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:15.640
<v Speaker 1>and I reckon I could count on one hand the

0:32:15.680 --> 0:32:18.680
<v Speaker 1>ones that haven't tried to get back in. Yeah, like

0:32:19.160 --> 0:32:22.120
<v Speaker 1>they realized what they miss absolutely, and if we could

0:32:22.160 --> 0:32:24.560
<v Speaker 1>open the doors for people like that, I think it

0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:26.840
<v Speaker 1>makes for a better police officer. You get some life

0:32:26.920 --> 0:32:31.680
<v Speaker 1>experience and come back and recharge. We didn't mention child protection.

0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:33.000
<v Speaker 1>You worked in that for a couple of years.

0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:34.400
<v Speaker 2>A couple of years down the other one.

0:32:34.240 --> 0:32:36.640
<v Speaker 1>I reckon. That's probably one of the hardest areas of

0:32:36.680 --> 0:32:41.600
<v Speaker 1>policing to work in, and it always seems desperately under resource. Yes,

0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:44.760
<v Speaker 1>a lot of pressure. Tell us about your experiences there.

0:32:45.640 --> 0:32:48.360
<v Speaker 2>I always thought that I had a great time in

0:32:48.480 --> 0:32:51.560
<v Speaker 2>child protection, and I think my husband and might disagree

0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:53.440
<v Speaker 2>with that. Yeah, I think you thought I bought it home,

0:32:53.720 --> 0:32:55.920
<v Speaker 2>which I didn't think I did. But I worked in

0:32:56.080 --> 0:32:58.720
<v Speaker 2>the joint investigative team, so I worked with Department, Community

0:32:58.720 --> 0:33:01.520
<v Speaker 2>Service and US so we would do the initial investigation,

0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:03.640
<v Speaker 2>then hand off. If we couldn't take it, then they

0:33:03.680 --> 0:33:07.480
<v Speaker 2>would then do their parts. Look, I found it rewarding,

0:33:07.600 --> 0:33:12.280
<v Speaker 2>I found it frustrating. I found it sad. You know.

0:33:12.480 --> 0:33:14.440
<v Speaker 2>I can look at some of the jobs we did

0:33:14.640 --> 0:33:17.200
<v Speaker 2>and it was interesting. We did one he was a

0:33:17.240 --> 0:33:19.680
<v Speaker 2>young boy, he was only about eight, and we just

0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:23.000
<v Speaker 2>knew we didn't have enough, but we just knew something

0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:26.440
<v Speaker 2>wasn't right and he wouldn't disclose. And no matter how

0:33:26.520 --> 0:33:29.280
<v Speaker 2>much we sat in the interview room and you know,

0:33:29.280 --> 0:33:30.840
<v Speaker 2>I sat down and talked to him and colored and

0:33:30.880 --> 0:33:33.080
<v Speaker 2>all that, we just we weren't getting anywhere. And that

0:33:33.320 --> 0:33:35.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, they're they're the hard ones. There wasn't enough

0:33:35.840 --> 0:33:39.240
<v Speaker 2>for us to do anything. Docs took you know, did

0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:41.760
<v Speaker 2>their part, but they're the ones that were hard or

0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:45.080
<v Speaker 2>even just going to picking up the babies that you know,

0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:49.440
<v Speaker 2>the cockroach infested nappies, like those type of worlds. We

0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:53.880
<v Speaker 2>just go, oh my lord, I can't believe that this

0:33:54.120 --> 0:33:55.280
<v Speaker 2>is real.

0:33:55.680 --> 0:34:00.800
<v Speaker 1>And because there wasn't under resourcing. Yes, I would imagine

0:34:00.800 --> 0:34:03.600
<v Speaker 1>the pressure. And it's not like, well, I say homicide

0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:05.960
<v Speaker 1>and there's nothing more extreme. But if someone's being killed,

0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:09.520
<v Speaker 1>unless we're tracing the serial killer, yeah, the immediate risk

0:34:09.680 --> 0:34:10.759
<v Speaker 1>is not ongoing.

0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:13.840
<v Speaker 2>Correct. But with children and child protection.

0:34:13.640 --> 0:34:15.960
<v Speaker 1>You make the wrong call or no, I'm too tired,

0:34:16.000 --> 0:34:18.719
<v Speaker 1>I can't be called out out now, or don't pick

0:34:18.800 --> 0:34:22.880
<v Speaker 1>up the phone. Yeah, you know a child could be suffering.

0:34:23.000 --> 0:34:25.560
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. That was the hardest part about it is that

0:34:25.920 --> 0:34:29.640
<v Speaker 2>you wanted to solve everything. I mean, there was a

0:34:29.680 --> 0:34:32.960
<v Speaker 2>big cult thing happening down in Illawarra at that time,

0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:36.120
<v Speaker 2>bit more down now, and my boss and I we

0:34:36.120 --> 0:34:38.879
<v Speaker 2>were working on it, but we still we still didn't

0:34:38.920 --> 0:34:42.080
<v Speaker 2>have anyone to say that he was doing this. The

0:34:42.160 --> 0:34:43.600
<v Speaker 2>offender was doing this to the children.

0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:48.160
<v Speaker 1>We just knew on the hunch and we would go to.

0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:50.840
<v Speaker 2>And we'd sort of go, okay, well we'll follow them here,

0:34:50.880 --> 0:34:53.879
<v Speaker 2>and we just didn't have enough. And you know, years later, yes,

0:34:54.120 --> 0:34:56.080
<v Speaker 2>he did get arrested, and you know, the child Protection

0:34:56.120 --> 0:34:58.040
<v Speaker 2>did a great job and we're able to know collad

0:34:58.080 --> 0:35:00.120
<v Speaker 2>all that information, but we just at that bigin and

0:35:00.080 --> 0:35:03.359
<v Speaker 2>then we had nothing. So it's that frustrating part that

0:35:04.120 --> 0:35:06.880
<v Speaker 2>you knew that that is happening. I mean, and you

0:35:06.920 --> 0:35:09.400
<v Speaker 2>know this is still happening today, and so today I

0:35:09.440 --> 0:35:13.279
<v Speaker 2>think would be harder as well, because now it's digitized

0:35:13.280 --> 0:35:16.400
<v Speaker 2>as well. Yeah, you know, that adds a whole different

0:35:16.719 --> 0:35:19.800
<v Speaker 2>level of just awfulness. But child protection was hard.

0:35:19.840 --> 0:35:23.840
<v Speaker 1>And you thought you were caping really well because I

0:35:24.360 --> 0:35:26.480
<v Speaker 1>mentioned to you that would have been tough. No, I

0:35:26.520 --> 0:35:30.160
<v Speaker 1>thought I was caping really well, but my husband suggested otherwise. Yes,

0:35:30.320 --> 0:35:33.239
<v Speaker 1>So how did it manifest itself what sort of things

0:35:33.360 --> 0:35:34.279
<v Speaker 1>was alluding to.

0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:36.960
<v Speaker 2>I think I was very hard on the girls, like

0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:41.000
<v Speaker 2>really hard, very structured, and don't do this and not.

0:35:41.560 --> 0:35:45.080
<v Speaker 2>I thought I was cotton wool and fairy tales and

0:35:45.520 --> 0:35:47.480
<v Speaker 2>no no. And I used to say, oh, I know,

0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:50.040
<v Speaker 2>it's like a story book. And I'd read this story

0:35:50.080 --> 0:35:51.719
<v Speaker 2>which was going to work, and then I'd come home

0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:55.040
<v Speaker 2>and the storybook was closed. I don't think I did that.

0:35:55.520 --> 0:35:59.160
<v Speaker 2>I think I withdrew and they're only little, so we're

0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:01.560
<v Speaker 2>still just talking. I was so tough on Bree, so

0:36:01.600 --> 0:36:04.759
<v Speaker 2>she would have only just been three hyper yes, yes,

0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:07.160
<v Speaker 2>don't do this, don't do it. So yeah, so Michael

0:36:07.200 --> 0:36:11.760
<v Speaker 2>said it was I was very I was a different person,

0:36:12.239 --> 0:36:15.320
<v Speaker 2>and I was and look, cops do make you tough,

0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:18.960
<v Speaker 2>don't get me wrong. And you know, you tend to

0:36:19.200 --> 0:36:22.759
<v Speaker 2>become concrete for blood, as someone once told me that

0:36:22.800 --> 0:36:26.000
<v Speaker 2>I had. But I still wear that with a badge,

0:36:26.040 --> 0:36:28.880
<v Speaker 2>because that's just we saw the worst of the worst.

0:36:29.239 --> 0:36:32.960
<v Speaker 1>And I think with cops that you can make a

0:36:33.000 --> 0:36:36.440
<v Speaker 1>definitive stand on something. You know, a good cop, I'm saying,

0:36:36.480 --> 0:36:39.880
<v Speaker 1>and that that's what years and years of policing you'll

0:36:39.960 --> 0:36:44.160
<v Speaker 1>call bullshit out it doesn't always make for an easy life.

0:36:44.400 --> 0:36:47.719
<v Speaker 2>But no, and look, and you know my dad will

0:36:47.719 --> 0:36:50.560
<v Speaker 2>say the same thing. You know, you see the worst

0:36:50.600 --> 0:36:53.040
<v Speaker 2>of people, you know, you see the best of people.

0:36:53.080 --> 0:36:55.279
<v Speaker 2>You know, you come across families that you love, but

0:36:55.400 --> 0:36:57.520
<v Speaker 2>you see what humans can do to humans.

0:36:57.800 --> 0:37:01.000
<v Speaker 1>And sometimes it can be a situation you know, someone's

0:37:01.000 --> 0:37:04.680
<v Speaker 1>introduced your friends group or family and you can see

0:37:04.719 --> 0:37:07.359
<v Speaker 1>right through them and get I've seen this person. This

0:37:07.400 --> 0:37:09.719
<v Speaker 1>person's a piece of shites. We shouldn't have anything to

0:37:09.760 --> 0:37:10.040
<v Speaker 1>do with it.

0:37:10.160 --> 0:37:13.720
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, absolutely, and I mean I still do that today,

0:37:13.719 --> 0:37:16.200
<v Speaker 2>but that I'm still look and at them. Yeah, no,

0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:17.200
<v Speaker 2>you're not my jam.

0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:20.919
<v Speaker 1>This is happening New South Wales. Police lost was the

0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:26.279
<v Speaker 1>hotel industry's game because you went from an extreme so

0:37:26.400 --> 0:37:29.520
<v Speaker 1>you went from police into you guys owning a pub.

0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:32.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes, but my husband was was born Bret, a hotelier.

0:37:32.760 --> 0:37:34.880
<v Speaker 2>So I just came in, as I called it, the

0:37:34.920 --> 0:37:37.120
<v Speaker 2>plus one, the one who used to just do the

0:37:37.840 --> 0:37:41.960
<v Speaker 2>the books. But you know, going from the cops to

0:37:42.280 --> 0:37:48.720
<v Speaker 2>doing bookwork. Stab myself in the eyeball. It was boring.

0:37:48.960 --> 0:37:53.520
<v Speaker 2>It was really boring, and I struggled, and I struggled

0:37:53.560 --> 0:37:55.960
<v Speaker 2>with that for a long time because you think about

0:37:56.000 --> 0:37:59.239
<v Speaker 2>every day is different in the comps, but being back

0:37:59.280 --> 0:38:01.280
<v Speaker 2>of house every day wasn't different.

0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:04.600
<v Speaker 1>I think that is the trouble with the cops. People

0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:08.160
<v Speaker 1>ask me, would you join the cops? And I say yes,

0:38:08.280 --> 0:38:10.600
<v Speaker 1>like I love, loved every day of it. But I said,

0:38:10.719 --> 0:38:13.040
<v Speaker 1>once you've got a taste for it, it's going to

0:38:13.040 --> 0:38:15.680
<v Speaker 1>be very hard to find the job that's as fulfilling.

0:38:15.880 --> 0:38:18.759
<v Speaker 1>It's challenging because you hit the nail on the head

0:38:18.760 --> 0:38:21.640
<v Speaker 1>and that was the beauty of it. No matter what

0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:23.640
<v Speaker 1>was going on, you could turn up to work one

0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:26.000
<v Speaker 1>day and you'd be doing things you had no idea

0:38:26.120 --> 0:38:28.239
<v Speaker 1>you'd be doing. So every day had the potential to

0:38:28.280 --> 0:38:34.919
<v Speaker 1>be something completely different, and you miss miss that. We've

0:38:34.960 --> 0:38:38.920
<v Speaker 1>taken you through your career in polices, you're working in

0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:43.759
<v Speaker 1>the hotel industry, and then something changed dramatically in your life.

0:38:44.000 --> 0:38:48.320
<v Speaker 2>Please tell so I receive a phone call from my mum.

0:38:48.520 --> 0:38:52.240
<v Speaker 2>I'll set the scene typical, great Sunday afternoon, it's hot,

0:38:52.320 --> 0:38:54.400
<v Speaker 2>I've poured myself a glass of Chara. There's a bit

0:38:54.400 --> 0:38:56.799
<v Speaker 2>of a theme here with does come up a lot,

0:38:57.280 --> 0:38:59.040
<v Speaker 2>Just so you know that's that's just in case you've

0:38:59.040 --> 0:39:01.400
<v Speaker 2>want to buy me one, but that's a charney unwadded.

0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:05.719
<v Speaker 2>So and I'm just sitting at the kitchen bench and

0:39:05.719 --> 0:39:07.560
<v Speaker 2>my mum rings to say that she's met somebody. So

0:39:07.640 --> 0:39:09.680
<v Speaker 2>I was quite excited for that. She'd been single for

0:39:09.719 --> 0:39:10.239
<v Speaker 2>twenty years.

0:39:10.280 --> 0:39:10.920
<v Speaker 1>Wow, how old you?

0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:15.560
<v Speaker 2>Mum at that stage was seventy eight, So I went,

0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:19.080
<v Speaker 2>happy days. You know, great, you're going to go on cruisers,

0:39:19.160 --> 0:39:20.560
<v Speaker 2>You're going to live your best life.

0:39:20.840 --> 0:39:21.600
<v Speaker 1>You'd be happy.

0:39:21.840 --> 0:39:25.280
<v Speaker 2>She then says to me, his name's Donald, he's sixty nine,

0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:28.920
<v Speaker 2>he's about to retire. Okay, ten years differently, you know, nothing,

0:39:29.120 --> 0:39:32.520
<v Speaker 2>no red flags. Until she said he was in Turkey

0:39:32.640 --> 0:39:37.800
<v Speaker 2>just finalizing a contract. I sort of did you okay, okay,

0:39:37.840 --> 0:39:40.440
<v Speaker 2>well people, you know, people travel. Then I said to

0:39:40.480 --> 0:39:44.040
<v Speaker 2>her send me some photos because I just wanted to

0:39:44.040 --> 0:39:48.160
<v Speaker 2>be a bit nosy. So as soon as the photos arrived,

0:39:48.920 --> 0:39:52.400
<v Speaker 2>I went, we've got a problem here because he looks

0:39:52.560 --> 0:39:54.520
<v Speaker 2>like he's in his mid fifties and he had just

0:39:54.560 --> 0:39:58.279
<v Speaker 2>finished a half marathon like he was looking looking kind

0:39:58.320 --> 0:40:02.959
<v Speaker 2>of yeah one fight. I went, oh, damn, okay, we've

0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:05.080
<v Speaker 2>got a problem. You know, there is an issue here.

0:40:05.440 --> 0:40:07.560
<v Speaker 2>And I couldn't say anything to mum. Until I sort

0:40:07.560 --> 0:40:10.560
<v Speaker 2>of had a bit more so in the office, I

0:40:10.600 --> 0:40:13.120
<v Speaker 2>go and I start digging. Now I don't know anything

0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:17.000
<v Speaker 2>at this stage about reverse image searches. I know nothing

0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:18.920
<v Speaker 2>about that world at all.

0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:21.080
<v Speaker 1>And she had met him online.

0:40:21.160 --> 0:40:23.440
<v Speaker 2>That's so, she'd met him on a dating app. She

0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:29.480
<v Speaker 2>had spoken to him apparently via phone, very quick messages,

0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:32.839
<v Speaker 2>but a lot of emails, so a lot of WhatsApp, right,

0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:36.360
<v Speaker 2>So I know nothing about red flags whatsoever. So I

0:40:36.440 --> 0:40:38.399
<v Speaker 2>go in and I start searching. In about an hour

0:40:38.400 --> 0:40:41.520
<v Speaker 2>and a half later, I track down this real estate

0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:45.799
<v Speaker 2>agent's Instagram page and I'm just going through and I'm thinking, oh, look,

0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know and then all of a sudden, a

0:40:48.000 --> 0:40:50.320
<v Speaker 2>photo of twenty twenty appears, and it's the same photo

0:40:50.680 --> 0:40:54.240
<v Speaker 2>that mum's got, so it's a different name, different person.

0:40:54.320 --> 0:40:55.919
<v Speaker 2>So then I started doing a bit of a deep

0:40:55.960 --> 0:40:58.440
<v Speaker 2>dive onto you know, Joe blogs, and I want to

0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:01.279
<v Speaker 2>know more about him. Find out that he's married, he's

0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:04.480
<v Speaker 2>got this real estate business in California, him and his

0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:07.200
<v Speaker 2>wife have it. He's got a daughter, he's got a grandson.

0:41:07.320 --> 0:41:11.120
<v Speaker 2>He's not in Turkey. This is all from Fata. So

0:41:11.120 --> 0:41:12.720
<v Speaker 2>I had a couple of photos.

0:41:12.440 --> 0:41:16.839
<v Speaker 1>At this point in time, your mom's oblivious to it.

0:41:15.960 --> 0:41:19.640
<v Speaker 2>She is she is happy as pig and mud. She's

0:41:19.760 --> 0:41:23.399
<v Speaker 2>thinking her life is fabulous. So I sort of put

0:41:23.400 --> 0:41:28.040
<v Speaker 2>all this together and realized that she's not speaking to Donald,

0:41:28.160 --> 0:41:30.720
<v Speaker 2>that at this stage, you're a victim of a scam.

0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:32.919
<v Speaker 2>And I sort of did a bit more about what

0:41:32.960 --> 0:41:34.920
<v Speaker 2>does this mean? You know, I'd heard a little bit

0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:37.120
<v Speaker 2>about scamming, so I've sort of did a bit more.

0:41:37.640 --> 0:41:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Then I rang her and she didn't do much, but

0:41:41.480 --> 0:41:42.319
<v Speaker 2>she was devastated.

0:41:42.440 --> 0:41:44.160
<v Speaker 1>How did you approach the conversation with her?

0:41:44.280 --> 0:41:45.719
<v Speaker 2>I just said to her, Look, Mum, I've gone and

0:41:45.719 --> 0:41:47.840
<v Speaker 2>had a bit of a look, you are not talking

0:41:47.880 --> 0:41:51.919
<v Speaker 2>to Donald. He's not in Australian he's not in Turkey. Mum.

0:41:52.000 --> 0:41:57.160
<v Speaker 2>Those photos belonged to Joe Blogs. He's married. Mum, this

0:41:57.280 --> 0:42:00.640
<v Speaker 2>is not Donald. You're a victim of a scam. The

0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:02.919
<v Speaker 2>best part about Mum is that I suppose she knew

0:42:02.960 --> 0:42:06.000
<v Speaker 2>who I am, she knew my background, she knew there'd

0:42:06.040 --> 0:42:08.200
<v Speaker 2>be no reason for me to lie because I really

0:42:08.239 --> 0:42:11.040
<v Speaker 2>wanted for her to meet somebody. So she took all

0:42:11.080 --> 0:42:14.000
<v Speaker 2>that on face value, but was very shocked, and she

0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:16.799
<v Speaker 2>we had that conversation. It may only went for half

0:42:16.840 --> 0:42:19.759
<v Speaker 2>an hour forty five minutes. She left it and then

0:42:19.760 --> 0:42:21.759
<v Speaker 2>she rang me back and she said, how do you know?

0:42:21.880 --> 0:42:24.239
<v Speaker 2>So I went through all the processes I did this, Mum,

0:42:24.680 --> 0:42:27.319
<v Speaker 2>this is this photo. So I said, Mum, all this

0:42:27.440 --> 0:42:30.719
<v Speaker 2>is nothing to do with a contract, and I said,

0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:33.840
<v Speaker 2>this is all stolen. So I broke it down into

0:42:34.000 --> 0:42:38.880
<v Speaker 2>every little fine detail so she could understand. But it

0:42:38.920 --> 0:42:42.160
<v Speaker 2>took her a while. It wasn't something that okay, thank

0:42:42.200 --> 0:42:42.600
<v Speaker 2>you for that.

0:42:42.600 --> 0:42:44.719
<v Speaker 1>That's great when you say a while over a matter

0:42:44.760 --> 0:42:45.320
<v Speaker 1>of days.

0:42:45.160 --> 0:42:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Weeks, No, no, this is this took Mum a couple

0:42:48.000 --> 0:42:52.080
<v Speaker 2>of months to really accept. And then what I did,

0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:55.080
<v Speaker 2>which I don't do to anybody now, I actually showed

0:42:55.160 --> 0:42:58.560
<v Speaker 2>her the real person, who the real person was, who

0:42:58.600 --> 0:43:02.359
<v Speaker 2>the real person's you know, daughter is. I showed her

0:43:02.440 --> 0:43:05.600
<v Speaker 2>where the photos had been stolen from right because I

0:43:05.600 --> 0:43:07.600
<v Speaker 2>said to her, I need you to understand that this

0:43:07.680 --> 0:43:10.520
<v Speaker 2>is real. There's no reason for me to lie to you.

0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:14.000
<v Speaker 2>I want you to make mistake. Here, there's no mistake.

0:43:14.120 --> 0:43:16.879
<v Speaker 2>So I showed her and then she said, well, I'm

0:43:16.920 --> 0:43:18.920
<v Speaker 2>going to contact this person and then we had to

0:43:18.920 --> 0:43:21.600
<v Speaker 2>go through that process. Well, Mum, he's a victim of

0:43:21.600 --> 0:43:24.480
<v Speaker 2>identity theft. You can't do that because you know that's

0:43:24.680 --> 0:43:26.200
<v Speaker 2>and then we had to go down that why you

0:43:26.239 --> 0:43:28.840
<v Speaker 2>can't do that, And it took her a while, but

0:43:28.920 --> 0:43:32.359
<v Speaker 2>she was shattered, she was really shattered. And then when

0:43:32.400 --> 0:43:34.960
<v Speaker 2>she went back online again, she would send me photos

0:43:35.000 --> 0:43:37.560
<v Speaker 2>and say, well, no, that photo is stolen or that

0:43:37.560 --> 0:43:40.399
<v Speaker 2>one doesn't have any digital footprints. So I don't really

0:43:40.440 --> 0:43:43.000
<v Speaker 2>want you to go to anyone who doesn't have a

0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:46.839
<v Speaker 2>digital footprint because I can't identify who they are. So

0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:49.279
<v Speaker 2>she ended up, you know, finding someone real. And that's

0:43:49.280 --> 0:43:52.520
<v Speaker 2>what said. Unless you can touch, feel, taste them, they

0:43:52.560 --> 0:43:54.480
<v Speaker 2>don't exist. That's what you got to do.

0:43:54.560 --> 0:43:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Mom, Well, I want to I want to talk about

0:43:57.600 --> 0:44:01.440
<v Speaker 1>reverse imaging with the photos and all the lines of

0:44:01.480 --> 0:44:04.319
<v Speaker 1>inquiry that you followed up, and we'll explain that. But

0:44:04.440 --> 0:44:07.279
<v Speaker 1>before we do that, one moment in time sort of

0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:09.440
<v Speaker 1>inspired you to get out of the books from the

0:44:09.480 --> 0:44:14.080
<v Speaker 1>hotels and get your private investigator's licenses. What was your

0:44:14.160 --> 0:44:16.399
<v Speaker 1>rationale behind your thinking there?

0:44:16.520 --> 0:44:20.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, I didn't think that there was someone here in

0:44:20.400 --> 0:44:23.400
<v Speaker 2>Australia that was specific. Just in this field. There's a

0:44:23.400 --> 0:44:26.399
<v Speaker 2>lot of pis that do a lot of stuff. I

0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:28.719
<v Speaker 2>wasn't interested in hiding behind a tree and catching the

0:44:28.880 --> 0:44:31.560
<v Speaker 2>cheating wife or husband that wasn't mine. I wanted to

0:44:31.760 --> 0:44:33.840
<v Speaker 2>help people like my mum. So I thought, well, what

0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:37.160
<v Speaker 2>I'll do is that I will get my pay i's license.

0:44:37.200 --> 0:44:39.520
<v Speaker 2>And I reached out and i'd had my pei's license

0:44:39.600 --> 0:44:41.800
<v Speaker 2>after I left the cops when I got that as well.

0:44:42.040 --> 0:44:44.480
<v Speaker 2>But again that was just from that was easy because

0:44:44.560 --> 0:44:47.640
<v Speaker 2>tayfe I just showed exactly what I did prior learning,

0:44:47.719 --> 0:44:49.680
<v Speaker 2>and the same thing. They accepted all my prior learning.

0:44:49.719 --> 0:44:52.560
<v Speaker 2>And I'd also done a business law degree too in

0:44:52.600 --> 0:44:54.440
<v Speaker 2>the last couple of years because I was just a

0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:57.120
<v Speaker 2>bit bored and I needed to do something. So they

0:44:57.200 --> 0:45:00.760
<v Speaker 2>accepted everything that I had done over the last twenty years.

0:45:00.880 --> 0:45:03.040
<v Speaker 2>And I got my license and went and got my

0:45:03.040 --> 0:45:05.600
<v Speaker 2>fingerprints done in the police station and you know, ticked

0:45:05.640 --> 0:45:09.400
<v Speaker 2>the box. You know, they went all this, oh, okay,

0:45:09.440 --> 0:45:10.719
<v Speaker 2>now what I'm going to do with that? And then I,

0:45:10.800 --> 0:45:14.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, then I created two face on that you

0:45:14.520 --> 0:45:16.600
<v Speaker 2>come to two face investigations on that.

0:45:16.520 --> 0:45:20.040
<v Speaker 1>Part is there a player on the play on the

0:45:20.080 --> 0:45:21.000
<v Speaker 1>type of thing that you.

0:45:21.280 --> 0:45:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Two faces there? So I and it was sort of

0:45:24.480 --> 0:45:26.680
<v Speaker 2>like it was either going to be second face or

0:45:26.680 --> 0:45:28.480
<v Speaker 2>two face. I was trying to come up with something

0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:31.000
<v Speaker 2>that idea of you know, the original and the and

0:45:31.040 --> 0:45:34.600
<v Speaker 2>the deceitful one side of it all. So I just

0:45:34.640 --> 0:45:37.160
<v Speaker 2>then sat down and I really thought, boom, this is

0:45:37.200 --> 0:45:38.600
<v Speaker 2>just going to take off and I'm going to be

0:45:38.920 --> 0:45:40.600
<v Speaker 2>inundated with all these people.

0:45:43.040 --> 0:45:45.839
<v Speaker 1>Like on the movie when the Private Investigator, you sit

0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:47.920
<v Speaker 1>in an office of dingy office with your phone just

0:45:47.960 --> 0:45:50.080
<v Speaker 1>waiting for it to ring for your cat.

0:45:50.400 --> 0:45:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Is anyone going to reach out? Can somebody wring my phone?

0:45:55.360 --> 0:45:57.680
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, so I just started that, and I just started.

0:45:58.040 --> 0:46:00.319
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the business has pivoted like it's you know.

0:46:00.560 --> 0:46:03.120
<v Speaker 2>I now I've broken into two parts. Now I have

0:46:03.239 --> 0:46:05.759
<v Speaker 2>scam prevention in Australia, which is more of the proactive

0:46:05.800 --> 0:46:07.920
<v Speaker 2>side that we need to talk more about it. And

0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:11.200
<v Speaker 2>then I've got the reactive side where I really talk

0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:15.360
<v Speaker 2>to people face to face via zoom to basically say listen,

0:46:15.880 --> 0:46:19.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't know you. You need to stop talking to this

0:46:19.080 --> 0:46:22.600
<v Speaker 2>person because of these reasons. And that's a whole nother challenge.

0:46:22.680 --> 0:46:26.120
<v Speaker 1>With your mum's one, you said it took her months

0:46:26.120 --> 0:46:27.920
<v Speaker 1>to get over. What were the type of things that

0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:31.520
<v Speaker 1>were challenging. Your mum was at the embarrassment. And I

0:46:31.560 --> 0:46:34.759
<v Speaker 1>say embarrassment because I think that would come in the play.

0:46:35.280 --> 0:46:39.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, because she was still engaging with the scammer even

0:46:39.400 --> 0:46:43.480
<v Speaker 2>after you, even after she spent a couple more weeks

0:46:43.520 --> 0:46:46.160
<v Speaker 2>talking to them, because that they want to see whether

0:46:46.320 --> 0:46:50.280
<v Speaker 2>they can catch them out. And I kept saying to Mum,

0:46:50.560 --> 0:46:53.799
<v Speaker 2>they're professional of this doesn't matter what you say. You're

0:46:53.800 --> 0:46:57.160
<v Speaker 2>a seventy eight year old woman, yeah, lives in Sydney.

0:46:57.200 --> 0:46:59.879
<v Speaker 2>That they don't. They're not going to saying oh, I'm

0:46:59.880 --> 0:47:03.200
<v Speaker 2>so sorry. My name is Frank and I'm from Nigeria.

0:47:03.440 --> 0:47:06.319
<v Speaker 2>And they're not going to do that. So she just

0:47:06.719 --> 0:47:08.480
<v Speaker 2>I want to catch them out, I said, but for

0:47:08.560 --> 0:47:13.120
<v Speaker 2>what purpose? That's not going to close this chapter by

0:47:13.160 --> 0:47:14.200
<v Speaker 2>you catching them out.

0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:16.520
<v Speaker 1>Just on what you're saying there, it makes me think

0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:19.480
<v Speaker 1>that it's very human nature, isn't it. You think you're

0:47:19.480 --> 0:47:22.000
<v Speaker 1>in a relationship. I just want closure. I just want

0:47:22.040 --> 0:47:24.960
<v Speaker 1>they want to admit it. Yep, because in her mind

0:47:25.200 --> 0:47:27.840
<v Speaker 1>and in that early stages of this might be the

0:47:27.960 --> 0:47:31.160
<v Speaker 1>right person and then it's taken away. They don't even

0:47:31.160 --> 0:47:34.239
<v Speaker 1>get the closure from Look, this relationship is not working out.

0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:36.520
<v Speaker 1>Or I'm leaving you because of this, yes, so that

0:47:36.640 --> 0:47:38.880
<v Speaker 1>they are left in that space of limbo.

0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:42.520
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and especially when I come in and say, no,

0:47:43.200 --> 0:47:46.600
<v Speaker 2>this is not who you think and you're right a stranger, Well,

0:47:46.719 --> 0:47:49.440
<v Speaker 2>Mum wasn't a stranger, but a mum talks, she says,

0:47:49.480 --> 0:47:52.560
<v Speaker 2>and Mum's been interviewed before, and she said, when Carnie

0:47:52.560 --> 0:47:57.319
<v Speaker 2>told me, I believed her. But I did believe her

0:47:57.320 --> 0:47:59.920
<v Speaker 2>because I knew who she was, and I knew, you know,

0:48:00.160 --> 0:48:02.560
<v Speaker 2>everything that she did, and I knew that she made

0:48:02.560 --> 0:48:06.000
<v Speaker 2>sure that every you know, I was dotted and you know,

0:48:06.120 --> 0:48:08.120
<v Speaker 2>to across and all that. I knew that she was

0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:10.920
<v Speaker 2>telling me. What she was telling me was right, But

0:48:11.040 --> 0:48:14.839
<v Speaker 2>I still had that but in there. And that's an

0:48:14.880 --> 0:48:17.960
<v Speaker 2>interesting thing that she still had that butt. And it

0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:19.800
<v Speaker 2>took her a while to talk about it, like because

0:48:19.800 --> 0:48:21.040
<v Speaker 2>I said to her, I want you to tell your

0:48:21.040 --> 0:48:23.160
<v Speaker 2>friends about it. You know, they all you live in

0:48:23.200 --> 0:48:25.640
<v Speaker 2>a retirement village. They all need to understand. But she

0:48:25.760 --> 0:48:28.400
<v Speaker 2>had that shame, she had that embarrassment that she didn't

0:48:28.520 --> 0:48:30.719
<v Speaker 2>now she'll tell anybody, She'll stand on top of a

0:48:30.800 --> 0:48:31.799
<v Speaker 2>rooftop and talk about it.

0:48:31.840 --> 0:48:34.920
<v Speaker 1>Now, Well, I think victims in any crime, and the

0:48:34.960 --> 0:48:38.040
<v Speaker 1>shame comes in quite often in the variety of crimes.

0:48:38.040 --> 0:48:40.480
<v Speaker 1>And the thing is that there shouldn't be shame here

0:48:40.520 --> 0:48:43.759
<v Speaker 1>a victim, and quite often they're victims because they're good,

0:48:43.800 --> 0:48:46.840
<v Speaker 1>trusting people, and that's why they get targeted.

0:48:47.000 --> 0:48:49.480
<v Speaker 2>And that's why it works so well, because we are.

0:48:50.120 --> 0:48:55.680
<v Speaker 1>I would imagine family members or friends that the attraction

0:48:55.800 --> 0:48:59.160
<v Speaker 1>the love is so strong in their minds, like the victims,

0:48:59.440 --> 0:49:01.680
<v Speaker 1>that they push away friends. They'd be falling out with

0:49:01.880 --> 0:49:04.560
<v Speaker 1>friendships and family when they say, oh, this is this

0:49:04.640 --> 0:49:05.680
<v Speaker 1>is not right?

0:49:06.120 --> 0:49:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Understand And I think the problem we've got there is

0:49:09.040 --> 0:49:13.560
<v Speaker 2>the way family and friends initially speak to the victim

0:49:13.760 --> 0:49:15.880
<v Speaker 2>of this crime. You know, instead of going in there

0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:19.680
<v Speaker 2>with a bit of empathy and understanding and compassion, we

0:49:19.800 --> 0:49:23.400
<v Speaker 2>tend to go in there and say, no, you're an idiot,

0:49:23.520 --> 0:49:26.640
<v Speaker 2>don't you know. So we use negative language, which then

0:49:26.800 --> 0:49:31.000
<v Speaker 2>causes the victim to retreat because the scammers are telling them,

0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:33.560
<v Speaker 2>don't believe what your families say because they're lies.

0:49:34.120 --> 0:49:37.360
<v Speaker 1>Right, Okay, so you're better off working with them moments

0:49:37.520 --> 0:49:40.680
<v Speaker 1>they're not just hitting them up front you're wrong.

0:49:40.719 --> 0:49:43.120
<v Speaker 2>It's a slow process and it is something that you

0:49:43.200 --> 0:49:46.640
<v Speaker 2>need to be there to support them through through this process.

0:49:46.680 --> 0:49:50.360
<v Speaker 2>Because when we talk about the way a scam and

0:49:50.640 --> 0:49:54.480
<v Speaker 2>anyone who's evil, because scamming is evil. Anyone who's that

0:49:54.560 --> 0:49:57.360
<v Speaker 2>skill set to be able to deceive another human is evil.

0:49:57.840 --> 0:50:00.880
<v Speaker 2>So they have manipulated you and use tactics to be

0:50:00.920 --> 0:50:03.919
<v Speaker 2>able to take you into a different world. So our

0:50:04.080 --> 0:50:06.600
<v Speaker 2>language towards a victim of a crime has to be

0:50:06.640 --> 0:50:10.879
<v Speaker 2>quite specific and understanding, and we've got to use I

0:50:11.000 --> 0:50:13.279
<v Speaker 2>use a little bit of manipulation, you know, in the

0:50:13.400 --> 0:50:15.879
<v Speaker 2>kind way, not the evil way, to try to get

0:50:15.880 --> 0:50:20.359
<v Speaker 2>the victims away from the offender. And that's what it is,

0:50:20.400 --> 0:50:24.560
<v Speaker 2>because they have put you into this whole different world of.

0:50:25.040 --> 0:50:28.719
<v Speaker 1>Well the world, and that's a scary world. And yeah,

0:50:29.160 --> 0:50:32.040
<v Speaker 1>people online dating like that's a world that they didn't

0:50:32.080 --> 0:50:38.879
<v Speaker 1>know twenty years ago. They're vulnerable. Everyone's looking for a companionship,

0:50:38.880 --> 0:50:42.680
<v Speaker 1>love or whatever, and that's what they're praying on. When

0:50:42.719 --> 0:50:45.360
<v Speaker 1>it's your mum, how angry were you were? You pissed

0:50:45.360 --> 0:50:46.160
<v Speaker 1>off big time.

0:50:47.320 --> 0:50:50.440
<v Speaker 2>I was so excited and then I was cranking that

0:50:50.520 --> 0:50:51.520
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't real.

0:50:51.640 --> 0:50:56.520
<v Speaker 1>Because I said, even impacted on you. They were so.

0:50:56.400 --> 0:51:02.760
<v Speaker 2>Excited for it, look't I wasn't cranky. Wasn't cranky at mum.

0:51:02.600 --> 0:51:04.799
<v Speaker 1>Because I'm not suggesting it, Mum, but I was.

0:51:04.760 --> 0:51:08.319
<v Speaker 2>Cranky at them. And the more I looked into it,

0:51:08.880 --> 0:51:11.800
<v Speaker 2>the more it enraged me. And that's why I started,

0:51:11.840 --> 0:51:16.600
<v Speaker 2>because I just went, this is so bad. I don't

0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:19.120
<v Speaker 2>know this, and I thought, you know, I'm pretty out there.

0:51:19.160 --> 0:51:21.640
<v Speaker 2>I pretty much noticed it. No, I didn't know anything

0:51:21.680 --> 0:51:24.279
<v Speaker 2>about this. So that's why I went, well, what can

0:51:24.320 --> 0:51:28.520
<v Speaker 2>I do to try to talk about that more so

0:51:28.560 --> 0:51:31.799
<v Speaker 2>people can talk about it more so people can, like

0:51:31.840 --> 0:51:34.600
<v Speaker 2>my mum can turn around and say, yes, okay, maybe

0:51:34.640 --> 0:51:38.000
<v Speaker 2>I need to question this relationship. I have not met

0:51:38.080 --> 0:51:40.640
<v Speaker 2>them in person. Maybe I need to question it. Maybe

0:51:40.680 --> 0:51:42.359
<v Speaker 2>I need to say to a friend, oh, look, can

0:51:42.400 --> 0:51:44.680
<v Speaker 2>you just do a second set of eyes over this

0:51:44.719 --> 0:51:47.000
<v Speaker 2>for me? Because look, I've been talking to Frank for

0:51:47.120 --> 0:51:49.279
<v Speaker 2>six months but we haven't met and you know, I

0:51:49.320 --> 0:51:52.600
<v Speaker 2>really love him. But so it was that that's I

0:51:52.680 --> 0:51:54.879
<v Speaker 2>got that sort of fire in my belly, going, well,

0:51:55.239 --> 0:51:58.560
<v Speaker 2>how do I now change that language so victims can

0:51:58.560 --> 0:52:00.440
<v Speaker 2>say to somebody, let's have a look at this.

0:52:00.480 --> 0:52:03.839
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think it does become personal obviously when it's

0:52:03.840 --> 0:52:06.680
<v Speaker 1>your mother, but we do look at those scams, and

0:52:07.040 --> 0:52:09.359
<v Speaker 1>I'm guilty of it. As I suggest most people would

0:52:09.360 --> 0:52:11.120
<v Speaker 1>be your sort of art. How could you be so

0:52:11.160 --> 0:52:14.600
<v Speaker 1>stupid lately? But you know, I know my mother and

0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:17.480
<v Speaker 1>it's not romance scams, but has been scammed a couple

0:52:17.480 --> 0:52:21.680
<v Speaker 1>of times, and I can understand fully why she would

0:52:21.719 --> 0:52:24.840
<v Speaker 1>believe what she's been told with the call or I

0:52:24.960 --> 0:52:26.560
<v Speaker 1>need your details your day to birth?

0:52:26.640 --> 0:52:31.880
<v Speaker 2>You my mum also, and this one furiated me, and

0:52:31.920 --> 0:52:34.480
<v Speaker 2>I did get cranky with her. She got done for

0:52:34.520 --> 0:52:37.520
<v Speaker 2>the high mum scam. So she got the text message

0:52:37.560 --> 0:52:40.400
<v Speaker 2>I Mum, I've dropped my phone in the water. She

0:52:40.480 --> 0:52:42.800
<v Speaker 2>did the right thing, and she rang me three times

0:52:42.800 --> 0:52:44.600
<v Speaker 2>as soon as she got the text message. Well, my

0:52:44.680 --> 0:52:46.840
<v Speaker 2>phone was inside and I was outside, so I didn't

0:52:46.840 --> 0:52:50.040
<v Speaker 2>answer it. So then she started to engage with the

0:52:50.120 --> 0:52:54.280
<v Speaker 2>scammer and tried to send them forty seven hundred dollars. Now,

0:52:54.480 --> 0:52:56.840
<v Speaker 2>when I did come back inside and see three miscalls,

0:52:56.960 --> 0:53:00.400
<v Speaker 2>I rang mom and Mum said did your phone dropping

0:53:00.440 --> 0:53:02.200
<v Speaker 2>the water? And I said, oh no, no, no, no, no,

0:53:02.200 --> 0:53:04.879
<v Speaker 2>no no no, Mom, don't have you. She said, I've

0:53:04.920 --> 0:53:09.480
<v Speaker 2>tried to send the money. I said, okay, okay, breathe

0:53:09.520 --> 0:53:12.400
<v Speaker 2>so I'm breathing, trying to not get cranky with her

0:53:12.440 --> 0:53:16.000
<v Speaker 2>because we'd spoken about that before, but she hadn't taken

0:53:16.000 --> 0:53:20.000
<v Speaker 2>that on board. So where my dad. He got the

0:53:20.040 --> 0:53:22.400
<v Speaker 2>same thing, and he just didn't engage. But he got

0:53:22.480 --> 0:53:25.440
<v Speaker 2>it as a voice call, so he thought it was me.

0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:27.480
<v Speaker 2>But I said, Dad, didn't really sound like me. He

0:53:27.520 --> 0:53:29.359
<v Speaker 2>said no, but it was a female and it had

0:53:29.400 --> 0:53:32.440
<v Speaker 2>funny noises in the background, he said, But I just

0:53:32.480 --> 0:53:34.799
<v Speaker 2>wanted to wait until I spoke to you again. So

0:53:35.160 --> 0:53:38.319
<v Speaker 2>he took a different approach than my mom, So it

0:53:38.440 --> 0:53:42.600
<v Speaker 2>was a real They both went got same, same done,

0:53:42.640 --> 0:53:46.600
<v Speaker 2>but Mom did a different approach where Mom tried really

0:53:46.680 --> 0:53:50.000
<v Speaker 2>hard to send money through her bank to the scammer.

0:53:50.480 --> 0:53:53.080
<v Speaker 2>And I said to Mom, why didn't you just ring

0:53:53.160 --> 0:53:55.920
<v Speaker 2>my husband? Why didn't you ring my kid? Why would

0:53:55.920 --> 0:53:57.120
<v Speaker 2>I want money from you?

0:53:57.160 --> 0:53:57.279
<v Speaker 1>Like?

0:53:57.520 --> 0:54:00.719
<v Speaker 2>Why would I want She said, Oh, now I'm thinking,

0:54:00.719 --> 0:54:03.640
<v Speaker 2>I said, because the urgency was there, so and we

0:54:03.760 --> 0:54:04.800
<v Speaker 2>want to help our kids.

0:54:05.040 --> 0:54:08.000
<v Speaker 1>And that's the sad part because quite often the people

0:54:08.040 --> 0:54:10.440
<v Speaker 1>that do become victims of the good, decent people that

0:54:10.480 --> 0:54:13.560
<v Speaker 1>see good in everyone. But I'm with you, I just

0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:16.040
<v Speaker 1>don't trust. I just know it. I think in this

0:54:16.120 --> 0:54:19.719
<v Speaker 1>day and age, and it's sad. It shouldn't be the way.

0:54:20.280 --> 0:54:22.719
<v Speaker 1>We might have a break now when we come back,

0:54:22.719 --> 0:54:24.840
<v Speaker 1>I want you to break down like the type of

0:54:24.840 --> 0:54:27.880
<v Speaker 1>red flags how they go about it, because talking to

0:54:27.920 --> 0:54:31.480
<v Speaker 1>you the other day, I was shocked by the complexity

0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:34.120
<v Speaker 1>of what goes into these scams. It's not just some

0:54:34.239 --> 0:54:37.880
<v Speaker 1>idiot sitting sitting at home scamming one person. This is

0:54:38.320 --> 0:54:41.879
<v Speaker 1>a big time. This is huge and proactive. What can

0:54:41.920 --> 0:54:45.920
<v Speaker 1>be done to prevent people becoming becoming victims? Just before

0:54:45.960 --> 0:54:48.600
<v Speaker 1>we do, did your mum lose any money to this?

0:54:49.920 --> 0:54:54.200
<v Speaker 2>Mum has said she hasn't, and that's her story. I

0:54:54.400 --> 0:54:58.239
<v Speaker 2>believe she lost a round between ten to twenty and

0:54:58.600 --> 0:55:03.120
<v Speaker 2>thous because at that time, my brother passed away a

0:55:03.160 --> 0:55:04.319
<v Speaker 2>couple of years ago, so there was a little bit

0:55:04.360 --> 0:55:06.800
<v Speaker 2>of money, and mum had asked me for money around

0:55:06.840 --> 0:55:10.840
<v Speaker 2>that exactly the same time, and I couldn't understand why

0:55:10.880 --> 0:55:15.880
<v Speaker 2>she needed that type of money, and I sense and

0:55:15.920 --> 0:55:18.239
<v Speaker 2>I've read a couple of the emails, so he was

0:55:18.640 --> 0:55:22.200
<v Speaker 2>sort of feeding I'm here for an eighteen million dollar contract.

0:55:22.320 --> 0:55:24.120
<v Speaker 2>I know now that you know it's twenty million, but

0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:25.880
<v Speaker 2>I've got a few issues with the bank so I

0:55:25.880 --> 0:55:29.240
<v Speaker 2>could see the red flags within the emails. So Mama's

0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:32.160
<v Speaker 2>always said no, and I respect that. I just have

0:55:32.280 --> 0:55:36.839
<v Speaker 2>a gut feeling that she has, and that's that's her

0:55:36.880 --> 0:55:39.480
<v Speaker 2>sense of embarrassment that she did lose that money. So

0:55:39.800 --> 0:55:42.120
<v Speaker 2>it's a bit of a yes no answer. Yeah, yes

0:55:42.200 --> 0:55:43.920
<v Speaker 2>I think she did, but no, she says no, and

0:55:43.960 --> 0:55:47.359
<v Speaker 2>that's okay, and that's okay. Yeah, that's okay. The yeah,

0:55:47.520 --> 0:55:49.280
<v Speaker 2>I will, I will, I will say yes.

0:55:49.360 --> 0:55:51.920
<v Speaker 1>All right, Well we'll have a break back shortly for

0:55:52.000 --> 0:55:53.160
<v Speaker 1>Part two Excellence