1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world today. 14 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: I had a conversation with Irane muldoon Eran's life was 15 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: pretty normal and so he went on a holiday to 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: Cambodia to clear his head following relationship issues. But what 17 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: occurred in the Cambodian bar in July twenty twenty three 18 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: changed his life in ways it's difficult to imagine. Ten 19 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: days after that night, he was detained at non Penn 20 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: Airport on his way home. That was the beginning of 21 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: a nine month nightmare which still haunts him to this day, 22 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: and spoke to me about the brutality of a third 23 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: world prison system lacking humanity and where life is cheap. 24 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: On his first night in prison, he saw a prisoner 25 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: gang raped, and that was just a precursor for what 26 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: was going to happen to him. He knows he was 27 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: lucky to survive. He was beaten countless times, stabbed and 28 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: gang raped on several occasions. This is a truly frightening 29 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: story about what can happen when you get caught up 30 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: in a prison system in a foreign country and you're 31 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,919 Speaker 1: in a Cambodian prison for nine months for a relatively 32 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: minor offense that at its most extreme it was vandalism 33 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: of an ATM machine. You told me, during that nine 34 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: month period, you saw eleven people die in prison. You 35 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: saw rapes, bashings, you were stabbed in an environment like that. 36 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: Did you think you're going to survive? 37 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: No, not at all. No, every day you thought you 38 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: know it could be your day. Yeah, it was pretty horrific. 39 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: So you wake up there and how am I going 40 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: to get through the day? 41 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 2: And one day felt like a week or a month 42 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 2: it was so full on. 43 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: Is that something you've ever experienced before? Have you ever 44 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: been in prison or before? So this I'm just trying 45 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: to get a sense of it. Just the average fellow 46 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: that's gone on the holiday in Cambodia. Yeah, ended up 47 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: ended up in prison. 48 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 49 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: Basically did it change your view on humanity? 50 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: Yes? And what a great deal I saw things people 51 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 2: did to other people that were in Uveine, The amount 52 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 2: of cruelty I saw Barrick. Yeah, words can't really describe 53 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: how how you know totally those people had such disregard 54 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: for people's lives. Yeah, it was very confronting. 55 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: Okay. I don't normally give a content warning on the 56 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: podcast called Eye Catch Killers. I think people are pretty 57 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: well aware of the type of things we're going to discuss. 58 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 1: But in the conversations I've had with you, and when 59 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: you've told me about your experiences and what I've learnt 60 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: about your experiences, I think it's probably appropriate upfront that 61 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: I give a content warning here that what we're going 62 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: to be discussing is pretty heavy stuff. And what are 63 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: you hoping to achieve by coming on the podcast and 64 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: telling your story. 65 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: I just want people to be aware that you know, 66 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: you can be in the wrong place at the wrong time, 67 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: and it can quickly spiral into something that you just 68 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: can't believe the amount of trauma it's caused me my family. Yeah. Yeah, 69 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: I want people to be aware they're going to be 70 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: very cautious about going to foreign countries, especially Southeast Asian 71 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: countries in particular Cambodia. 72 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I think when people hear what you've got 73 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: to say in your story, it's it's a wake up 74 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 1: call for all of us to a degree that we 75 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: take a lot of things for granted in this country. 76 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: We haven't got it perfect with the justice system, but 77 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: there is some justice that prevails. But you in the 78 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: foreign land, foreign rules, and yeah, what's the norm here? 79 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: Doesn't it doesn't apply over there? 80 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: No, I dare say it's a cake walk in comparison, 81 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: to be honest. 82 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, hearing what you've you've told, I'd have to 83 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: agree with you. Let's find out a little bit about 84 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: Muldoon the person before we take you over to Cambaitia. 85 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: Just describe yourself, how old are you and what was 86 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: your life before this? 87 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 2: Fifty one? Grew up in beautiful Manly, you know, lived 88 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: my life basically on the beach, surfing and hanging around 89 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 2: with my friends and having a good good time, you know, 90 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: and having grew up and went to a good school 91 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 2: and had a good education, worked in hospitality for a 92 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: while and worked in sales and marketing, and you know, 93 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: then decided to want to become a forklift driver. 94 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: We've all got dreams. 95 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just you know, there was no stress there. 96 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 2: It's good times and that's what you're doing. That was 97 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 2: your occupation. When you say, people understand too. It was 98 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three that you went on your holiday 99 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 2: to Cambodia, but you were managing the fork driving or yeah. Yeah, 100 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: I was working in a warehouse and you know, truck 101 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 2: comes in, you loaded up, truck goes out. You know, 102 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: it was pretty easy work and the money was good, 103 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 2: so it was good. You know, sales and marketing can 104 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 2: be stressful at times with your targets and things like that. 105 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 2: So it was just a good career change, you know. 106 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm getting older and you were coming off the 107 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: back of a relationship as well. Yeah. 108 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, my relationship kind of fell apart, and that's why 109 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 2: I went overseas just to try and give some space 110 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: between the two of us and maybe reconcile later on 111 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: down the track. Yeah. 112 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: Well you told me that you were at that point 113 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: when you went overseas just a clear, clearly air on 114 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: the back of the relationship breaking down, but you had 115 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: hopes that it might rekindle some capacity. Yeah, and you 116 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: had had a child with that women, Yeah, I did. 117 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, young boy. 118 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: Okay, So we're getting a sense of it, and that's 119 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: the way i'd probably describe you living a typical average 120 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: life in Australia. Enjoy yourself. Yeah, had you had you 121 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: been in trouble with the law before, just briefly, Yeah, 122 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: what sort of stuff? 123 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: Childhood stuff, childhood stupidity. 124 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: We've all done that, I suppose have had you ever 125 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: done any time in prison or juvenile detention centers or whatever, 126 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: So it all been in custody is something completely foreign 127 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: to Yeah, okay, I just wanted to establish that because 128 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: it's the world that you stepped into. Must have been 129 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: so confronting on that many different levels. So tell us 130 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: about the trip to Cambaity. What was the plan's dreams 131 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: and aspirations flying over the Camba there. 132 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 2: Well, I wasn't meant to go there I was meant 133 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: to go vit Nam and my partners partner at the time, 134 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: she was in Bali and said she wasn't ready to, 135 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: you know, see me yet. And then you know, I 136 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: always wanted to go and see Ankle White and she's 137 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 2: said the same thing. When't you going to do that? 138 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: The temples in camp? Yeah? 139 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, in San rep So I decided that, you know, 140 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: I'd changed my ticket. 141 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: Okay, that was a great decision. 142 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:23,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was one of my best. 143 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,119 Speaker 1: So how long was the holiday planned? For? 144 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: Sixteen? Eighteen days? I was therefore I had a thirty 145 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 2: day visa, but I was only there for eighteen. 146 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: Days, okay, So, and I think it was on the 147 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: from memory tenth of July twenty twenty three, which was 148 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: two days into your trip. Yeah, yep, okay, And tell 149 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: me about what happened on the night the genesis of 150 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: what dictated the rest of your life, or at least 151 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: the next twelve months of your life. You went out 152 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: for a drink. 153 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it wasn't planning on going out for a drink. 154 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 2: It was just I went into a bar just literally 155 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: one hundred meters down from my hotel. Is this in 156 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 2: the capital city, Yeah, pen and I went down there 157 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 2: ordered a beer, and honestly, my first biggest mistake was 158 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: there was a cow bell there, and if you ring 159 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: the cowbell, you buy a beer for everybody in the 160 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 2: pubs are very cheap, but you know, so I was 161 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 2: happy to do that, but I think in doing that, 162 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: there's a couple of blokes there that have clocked me 163 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: going rich foreigner. And then I had one Jack Daniels 164 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: and coke. Second mistake was to leave that on the 165 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: table and go to the bathroom. I came back and 166 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: I had a few more SIPs out of that and 167 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: then basically got a really bad migraine headache, which and 168 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: I don't get migraines. I don't think I've ever had 169 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 2: any or one maybe you know, and then blurred vision. 170 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: I was unsteady on my feet. I went to pay 171 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 2: for the you know, the bar tab and because it'd 172 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 2: only just gotten there, I was still trying to negotiate 173 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 2: what moneys and what and American dollars and things into 174 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: Kmai reel and the owner she said, oh, you don't 175 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: have enough, but there's an ATM just down there, a 176 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 2: couple of doors down. 177 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: What time of night was that. 178 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: It's a while ago. Now, it's not that late, you know. Again, 179 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: just two drinks and then so I by the time 180 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: I walked down that to that atm, it was like 181 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: I'd been drinking all night. And then two guys followed 182 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: me out of the bar. I walked into the ATM 183 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: and I tried to put my card in about three 184 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 2: or four times, and by that stage I was so 185 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: incoherent and fell forward and with one hand protected my 186 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 2: face and the other hand just cracked the glass on 187 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 2: the ATM. And then walked out of there, and those 188 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 2: two fellas followed me to my hotel room, which was 189 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: literally another you know, fifty yards down the road or 190 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 2: fifty meters down the road. I walked in there and 191 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: they stopped, and then I got myself for I don't 192 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: know whether I got myself up to the room or 193 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: someone helped me up to the room, but I woke 194 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: up the next day very groggy, still unsteady on my feet, 195 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 2: you know, that bit of a brain fog. But I 196 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 2: still remembered something about the bar and owing money at 197 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: the bar. 198 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: You hadn't paid for the drinks, hadn't paid for the drinks. 199 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So I actually got money out of the safe, 200 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: walked past where the incident happened, the Smile mart there 201 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 2: and to the bar and paid the bar lady, and 202 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: then yeah, that was it. Nothing else was said. 203 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: Okay, so the smile mart you're talking about it, it's 204 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: like the convenience stores where they've got the ATM. Yeah, 205 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: that's like you see, I've got some fotos here that 206 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: I think were in the time of Times, the local paper, 207 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: and I'm just looking at it as a podcast, but 208 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: describing it. I can see on one of the shots 209 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: they've got the phatoh of you looking into the ATM machine, 210 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: and then they've got a picture of the damage to 211 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: the glass of the ATM. Yeah, and that's your sort 212 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: of recollection of what happened on the on the night 213 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: from the photose. Yeah, just obviously obviously. Yeah, and okay, 214 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: so what we're talking here is a damaged ATM machine, 215 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: And I just want to understand because yeah, what followed 216 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: on from this, trying to get a sense of the 217 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: actions that we're taking against you. You went back to 218 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: the bar the following day. Yep, you paid the money, 219 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: You've got money from the from the safe at your hotel, 220 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: and then then what did you do? 221 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 2: I just I spent another couple of days there and 222 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 2: then we I went up to bat and Bong and 223 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 2: then from Bat I spent five days in bat and Bong. 224 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: It's about six hours. Oh no, not that long. It's 225 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: about a three hour drive maybe just in a car 226 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 2: that picked me up from the hotel, and then from 227 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: there I got a boat ride up to soon Reap. 228 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, you just continued on your holiday. 229 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, there was no no, nothing said by the 230 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: owner of the bar, nothing said by the people who 231 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: owned the smile mart. There was nothing. 232 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: So did you have any thoughts at what happened that 233 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: the ATM machine was going to come back to buy it? 234 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 2: No, because I I initially I was just protecting myself 235 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 2: and then when hand hit, I didn't think anything of 236 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: it because I was that, you know, like like I 237 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: don't know, under duress, I guess. 238 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: Okay, so you've carried on your holidays. I think you 239 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: said another ten or thirteen days or something like that. 240 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: Another ten days. 241 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: I think it was already had your flights pre booked, so' 242 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: on the flight that you're intending to your book with 243 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: your holidays. So you didn't change your flights or try 244 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: to flee the. 245 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 2: Country or no, no, no, not at all. They said 246 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 2: that though I was trying to flee the country. 247 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: But this was pre booked, yeah flights and the flight 248 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: that you were scheduled to recatch. 249 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, back to Australia or back to Thailand first and Australia. 250 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm probably I'm falling in the cop made here 251 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: and I'm just thinking, okay, well, there was no effort 252 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: to flee the crime scene. You're not trying to escape. No, okay. 253 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: You go to the airport at which airport was. 254 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 2: It, Well they've got a new one now, but it 255 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: was the International Airport. 256 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: At Sanri, Okay. And what happened there. 257 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 2: I put my luggage on that went onto the plane. 258 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: I walked through to customs and they handed over my 259 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: passport and then the customs agent said, oh, you've got 260 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: a black mark against you your name, a black flag. 261 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: And I was like, what do you mean. He's saying, oh, 262 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 2: we just have to wait here for a minute. From that, 263 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: I was escorted to the immigration office and they'd taken 264 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 2: my passport and I was sitting there not knowing what 265 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: was going on, you know, and there was all these 266 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: customs agents and immigration people in the room with me 267 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: and asking me all these questions. And then the only 268 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 2: time I've ever seen the footage from the Smile Mart 269 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: was one police officer there had it on his phone, 270 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 2: and then when that was meant to be brought up 271 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: in court, that had disappeared, and that clearly showed the 272 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: two guys on the outside, the two dark figures on 273 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: the outside of the Smile Mart. 274 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: Okay, so you're in there, when is that when you 275 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: realize what you were being detained for. Did you realize 276 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: it was to do with the ATM machine? 277 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 2: They said, yeah, that i'd I damaged the ATM machine. Yeah. 278 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: And did you speak the local language? No, not at all, 279 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: So this was communicated to you by someone. 280 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, there were in Pidgin English because I don't I 281 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: don't speak Kamai, you know. 282 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: So when did you When did you realize this was 283 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: something unusual? Did you have concerns you were going to 284 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: miss your flight? 285 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: Well, they said if I missed my flight, they pay 286 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: for another one. But then they told me that there 287 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: was four police officers driving up from a non pen 288 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: that's a six hour drive. And then when they start 289 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: taking photos of me, with a board behind me, with 290 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: all the drug busts and you know, cocaine and ecstasy 291 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 2: and things like that. I knew from then on in 292 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: it was going to be tough, tough for me. 293 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't going to be just easy to get 294 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: you out of there. 295 00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 2: No, no, So. 296 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: What happened then? You put in? Were you put in 297 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: the custody or you are allowed to leave the police 298 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: station or no? 299 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 2: No? So they basically once once I was there, I 300 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 2: was asking for my passport back. I don't understand what's 301 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 2: going on. You know, I want to speak to this 302 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 2: train embassy. They wouldn't let me do that. They'd have 303 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 2: my phone, they'd taken everything from me. And then they 304 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: you know, they we waited and I just kept on 305 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 2: asking questions and they just kept on either saying they 306 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 2: don't understand, or wait for the police officers to come 307 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 2: from soon, sorry to fromm pen. 308 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: Okay, so you're sitting there, Are you in a cell? 309 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 2: No? No, I'm in the customs and the immigration office there, yeah, 310 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 2: in the Indie. 311 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: Airport at the airport. Yeah, what happened after that? 312 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: Okay? So then when the policeolice officers come, they handcuffed 313 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: me and saying that this case needs to be you 314 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: need to go back to Pen to do this case. Now. 315 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 2: I was handcuffed and led through a packed airport with 316 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: families and kids, with guys with machine guns, immigration officers, cups, 317 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 2: custom agents, you name it, like as if I was 318 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 2: some kind of drug baron or terrorists. And I could 319 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: see people pointing, going what's going on here, you know? 320 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 2: And they said to me, don't make a scene. And 321 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 2: then they put me into the full drive police car 322 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 2: and drove me back down to Pen to the police station. There. 323 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: Six hour drive. 324 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, no food, no water and nothing. 325 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: Okay. This was on the twenty twenty. 326 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: Third of the same day I was flying out. 327 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: Okay, third of July two thousand and twenty three. You 328 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: get to the police station, what happened. 329 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: I'm just put in a cell straight away. Anytime I 330 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 2: requested to speak to Mike's partner, Austrain embassy, anybody, we 331 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,959 Speaker 2: don't have internet connection or we don't understand what you're saying. 332 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 2: It was only the next day, I think, or or 333 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: the day after when then they drug tested me for 334 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 2: pretty much every drug which was a negative result. And 335 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: I was talking to the police captain there through a translator. 336 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 2: But he was getting me just like which happened many 337 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 2: times whilst being incarcerated. Over there forms that were written 338 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 2: in coom I where I and had to thumb print 339 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 2: in read ink and sign my name, not knowing what 340 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 2: I was signing whatsoever. 341 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: Right, you sent me some of those documents and I 342 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: went through them and I see that red thumb print. 343 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: That's what you're talking about. Okay, So you've been detained, 344 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: You've kept at the airport until the police come up 345 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: for me driving all the way up six hours and 346 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: you're driving back six hours, so we're looking at sort 347 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: of twenty four hours you're being in custody. Yeah, that's 348 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: right at that point in time, because and I think 349 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: and part of the basis of you coming on the podcast, 350 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: you wanted to warm people of the dangers of certain 351 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: situations you can find yourself in a foreign country. I 352 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: would assume that in Australian citizen the rest, you'd be 353 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: able to make a phone call and you'd be onder 354 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: the embassy straight away, or at least be able to 355 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,959 Speaker 1: make a phone call home. But you weren't provided with that, 356 00:20:58,440 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: not at all. 357 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 2: That was the scariest thing that. 358 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: You like you could just disappear one hundred percent. 359 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 2: That's my point. I was there for three days before 360 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 2: I got any contact with anyone outside. You know, if 361 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: I'd have died in that cell, I would have been 362 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: just buried somewhere. 363 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: It looks like, and I'm mainly basing this on the 364 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: fact that part of the research I did, I found 365 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: that newspaper article, and that newspaper article was published on 366 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: the twenty four to seven, so that's that's a day after. 367 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: So while you're in there, you haven't made any calls 368 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: to anyone that's in the paper with photos of you, 369 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: and the way they just described that, And I won't 370 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: read the whole article out, but it just finished off 371 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: with the suspect is currently being questioned by competent authorities 372 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: to proceed with the procedure. There might be a little 373 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: bit lost in translation there, but it looks like they're 374 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: skoeting about or promoting the fact that they've arrested you. 375 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: And then photos of the damaged atm the in the paper. Boy, 376 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: not not a good situation. And if I'm sitting here smiling, 377 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: it's just I'm thinking potentially could happen to anyone situation 378 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: like that. 379 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: I'm smiling too, but you either laugh with you cry 380 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: and I've done my crying. Yeah, it's it's that's yeah, 381 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 2: it's it's such a hard that that that's when you 382 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 2: know you're in trouble, you know. 383 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: So three days or three days in the police station, 384 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: you haven't spoken to anyone. What was the accommodation like food, 385 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: like cells, like. 386 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 2: Just a floor with bars around it, with a toilet, 387 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 2: no food, one bottle of water. I was I was 388 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 2: using a loaf of bread that they gave me, an 389 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 2: uncut loaf of bread as my pillow because I was 390 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: laying on like a floor that just rock hard floor. 391 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: And was anyone explaining what was going to happen to you? 392 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 2: No, No, not at all. 393 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: Not at all, because I can only only imagine that 394 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: the frustration that being caught up in a situation like that, 395 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: and you'd feel I think, so helpless. 396 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, powerless as well. Yeah, you just it's one of 397 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 2: those things. Yeah, you can't fathom, you know, because that 398 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 2: you know, And I found out later that some of 399 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 2: them could speak English in the police station, they just 400 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: chose not to, particularly one guy when he he knew 401 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 2: where I was going, and he told me where I 402 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 2: was headed. There was a wry smile on his on 403 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 2: his face. 404 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: When you knew he knew you were going to the prison. 405 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So I mean I went to court a 406 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 2: couple of times prior to going to prison too. 407 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: What what happened in the in the court appearances? 408 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 2: Okay, so then you'll be taken underground and it'd just 409 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: be sell after sell, And that must have been There 410 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 2: must have been about fifty sixty seventy people in a cell, 411 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 2: squashed up against the bars, all trying to get some 412 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,719 Speaker 2: lad to help them out, most of them Cambodians. There 413 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: was a few foreigners, but most of them Cambodians. And 414 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: the heat down there, it was like it was pretty hot, 415 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 2: you know. And then you go upstairs, speak to the judge, 416 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 2: no translator, and you go back downstairs, go back into 417 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: the cell, and they pick you up, take you back 418 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 2: into the police station. That happened a couple of times. 419 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 2: And then the same guy had the right smile on 420 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 2: his face, said to me, goes, well, we're not a 421 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: detention center. And then he was the one who drove 422 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 2: me down to the prison. 423 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: Okay, so how many days after your arrest was this? 424 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: I think it's it's hard to remember, but I think 425 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 2: it's about three for five days maybe, Yeah. 426 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: And had you had any communication with any representative from 427 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: the Australian Embassy or your family at that time? 428 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 2: I'd spoken to my ex partner once and then I 429 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 2: informed her at getting contact with the Australian Embassy as 430 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 2: soon as possible. And I'm in a pretty bad. 431 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: Spot, okay. And so that was your point of contact 432 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: your your ex partner, Yeah, okay, not not in a 433 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: good situation. And I'm just trying to imagine you'd be 434 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 1: screaming from the rooftops within your head, but I would 435 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: imagine that's pretty intimidating in an environment. 436 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 2: Like that that's just a police station. 437 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: Okay. 438 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that was that you start to think 439 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: about the enormity about what's going to happen or what's 440 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 2: going on. There's a lot of thoughts that go around 441 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: in your in your head that you know, something mentioned 442 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 2: before about if you've watched these shows on TV, thinking. 443 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: Oh, you would a broad time, you wouldn't want. 444 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: To be you wouldn't be in that, wouldn't want to 445 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 2: be in that situation. And here I am. It was surreal. 446 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: Food water at the time you're in the police station. 447 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: Just a bottle of water. I had a little bit 448 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 2: of money. There was one night he hit the bloke 449 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 2: went out and got me some a duck egg and 450 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 2: some rice. But I had to buy him. I gave 451 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 2: him the money and didn't give me anything back. 452 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: That was the currency of the detention. Okay, the prison, 453 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: and I apologize up from what we're going to talk about, 454 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: because I know your experience in prison was I think 455 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: it best described as horrific. You've considered it, and you 456 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: want to talk about what occurred in the prison. So 457 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: describe the prison to me. When you were taken to 458 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: the prison. 459 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 2: Okay, so you when he dropped me off in a 460 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 2: in the police car. You walk in, it's like these 461 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,479 Speaker 2: big gates, huge gates. When those gates open, it's like 462 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: you've walked into a medieval town. There's lane ways, there's 463 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 2: you know, and the smell hits you. That's the first thing. 464 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 2: And the heat, because as soon as you go in 465 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 2: with the other prisoners that are going in, they shut 466 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 2: those big gates and then you come to a set 467 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 2: of tables. They take everything that they want off you, 468 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: and then they strip you down they chuck this powder 469 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 2: on you. They give you an orange pair of pants 470 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: and an orange shirt. And I was walking around bare 471 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 2: feet for about a week and a half. And then 472 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: I remember walking through and I was the only foreigner 473 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 2: at this time, walking through with all the other Cambodians 474 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 2: and just you know, there's guys with rickshaws that they'd 475 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 2: made inside the prison full of rubbish and they're poking, 476 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: poking it with metal spikes to see if there's no 477 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: one in there trying to escape. There's you know, there's 478 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 2: animals around, and there's things, you know, like rats and things, 479 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: and just people looking at your pointing and they're all smiling, 480 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 2: you know, and they've got this blank look on their face, Nahna. 481 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 2: And that was quite daunting. But you got to understand too, 482 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 2: this prison, the walls are that high that no air 483 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 2: gets in there. There's there's uh, you know, police officers 484 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: in towers with rifles, you know, and it's like like 485 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 2: they're in sections blocks and then all these lane ways 486 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: that run through these blocks like a maze. Almost where 487 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 2: you'd stay, you know, that'd be one block here, so 488 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 2: a block and B block and so on, but all 489 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 2: these other lane ways and to get to other areas 490 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 2: and to the phones, to the one shop that they had, 491 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 2: or to the park. They had a park there. We 492 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 2: can go into that a bit later. 493 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: So that first, let's break it down to the first 494 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: twenty four hours. You go in there. You're processed as 495 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: in strip naked. 496 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: It's almost de lausd. 497 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: I guess, you throw the white powder all over you 498 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: and whatever. Then you get dumped in a cell. 499 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 2: Well, you get dumped into their three cells, and there's 500 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 2: about fifty people in one cell, and it's probably twice 501 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 2: the size of this room. 502 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: Okay, so we're talking roughly three meters by three meters 503 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: in this room. 504 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and a little toilet at the back. And 505 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 2: that's just they put you in those ones first to 506 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 2: see if you've got anything like COVID, what have you, 507 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 2: and then then they'll take you out. I think it 508 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 2: was I'll shave your head. Then I think it's the 509 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: second day they shaped everyone's head was shaped, Yeah, for 510 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 2: the head lice and stuff like that. The second night 511 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 2: I was there because I was so hypersensitive and my 512 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 2: anxiety levels were jacked through the roof. I couldn't sleep. 513 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 2: I didn't sleep for days. 514 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: I couldn't need a strange blake if you could just 515 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: lay down the. 516 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: Sleep oh, you know, like I found. I found a 517 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: bit of wall and that was the second night, was 518 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: the first time I seen a young bloke get raped. 519 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's yeah, this is just touching on the brutality 520 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: of it. You wrote that in the document you prepared, 521 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: and just so if I referred to the document that 522 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: was part of it. It was almost cathartic for you 523 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: to write down. 524 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 2: And that's not about me. 525 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: That's about yeah, guy, I saw the first time you 526 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: saw someone raped. I'm talking the document as such, but 527 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: putting down your thoughts about your experiences. But this is 528 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: where you what you've just raised about the first time 529 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: that you experienced someone being raped in prison. I'll just 530 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: just read it out and then get you to reflect 531 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: on it and comment on it after that. On the 532 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: second night was the first time I saw my first rape. 533 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,479 Speaker 1: It was about one in the morning. I heard this 534 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: young boy in the shower with two other bigger Cambadians. 535 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: He was screaming. It's a sound that stays with me 536 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: for days. I didn't want to fall asleep in case 537 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,959 Speaker 1: it was me. Next after they had finished with him, 538 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: he laid in the shower for hours, crying. People would 539 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: use the toilets still pissing and shitting right where he 540 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: was laying. This was the first taste of how inhumane 541 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: life was in prison. Things were a lot worse after this. 542 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: So seeing something like that talk me through the experience. 543 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 2: Of it's just so confronting. I've never seen anything like that, 544 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 2: you know. Ah, It's still why it troubles me now 545 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 2: because as soon as we read that, as soon as 546 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 2: I start thinking about that, I can see it so 547 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 2: clearly in my mind. And he was screaming, you know, 548 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 2: and it's like all the other prisoners just turned the 549 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 2: blind eye, you know. And then and then you know, 550 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 2: for him to be laying there, people going to the 551 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: bathroom just while he was still there crying, and and 552 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 2: the bathroom is filthy. You wouldn't lay down on that floor, 553 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 2: you know. You try and avoid it as much as 554 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 2: you can. It's it's it's disgusting, you know. And you know, 555 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 2: no one seemed to blink an eyelid, just all bad 556 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 2: an eyelid. 557 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: You know, do guards step in, No, not at all. 558 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 2: No, they just they're probably drinking somewhere, you know. Yeah, 559 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: there's always a captain of each room as well, who 560 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 2: runs the room. Yeah, and he always turns a blind 561 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 2: eye usually unless he's unless he's losing money over something, 562 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 2: because you know he'll he'll sell the cigarettes in there 563 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: and and whatever else he can get his hand. And 564 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 2: so if you came in with a bottle of water 565 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 2: and you didn't buy it from him, you'd take it 566 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 2: from you. So but yeah, that that the second night 567 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 2: was it was just like I've got myself into. 568 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: Here, and you had no option to raise it or 569 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: call out, or there's no one you could call out. 570 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 2: That was the toughest thing is to watch something like 571 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: that happen in front of you and not be able 572 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: to do anything because you fear that you were next. 573 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: And and you know, it's concerning to me because I 574 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 2: would be one of those people. 575 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: That would, you know, like help someone step in. 576 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you just can't. And again it still troubles 577 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 2: me to hear I can still hear those screams. 578 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: I Yeah, I don't think you should be too hard 579 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: on yourself. You found yourself in an impossible situation, and 580 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: I don't know anyone would step in in that. When 581 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: humanity is stripped away, that way, you've got to look 582 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: after yourself. 583 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but you weren't brought up that way. You know, 584 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 2: you're brought up to look after your fellow man. You're 585 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 2: a human being, you know. It's I don't know if 586 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 2: the words deplorable, but it's words can't describe what happened 587 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 2: in that prison. I just it's tough. 588 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine. When was the first time you 589 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: got to speak to a representative of a consul, assistant 590 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: or officer or someone from the embassy. 591 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good question. It would have been weeks, 592 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 2: maybe two weeks, maybe three weeks. I think, like I'm 593 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 2: not one hundred percent sure on that that's it, because 594 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 2: I got moved around as well, and it was hard 595 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 2: to get to see them unless they they like, I 596 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 2: couldn't call them at that stage. I couldn't ask anyone 597 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 2: to get them to come. They'd have to make a 598 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 2: decision to come and see me. They were aware that 599 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 2: I was in prison because of my ex partner telling 600 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 2: informing them. But I think it might have been two weeks, 601 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 2: two to three weeks, I think before I saw a 602 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 2: person from the embassy. 603 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: Did that seeing someone from the embassy, did you think Okay, 604 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: here is this situation is going to be resolved and 605 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: I'm going to be out of here. 606 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 2: Was that your initial hopes or yeah, of course you think, okay, well, 607 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 2: I've done nothing wrong. Surely they can understand that and 608 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 2: see that, and let's get me out of here. You know, 609 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 2: I've seen enough already. 610 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: And you would be put in your mind from here 611 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: local laws and all that and justice and fair play 612 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: and thinking how the hell have I ended up in here? 613 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 2: I would imagine, yeah, yeah, if that had happened in 614 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 2: your down at your local area, you'd probably just get 615 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,879 Speaker 2: a bill for the Well, I don't know, I've never 616 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 2: done it. 617 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: The short title of the offense over here would be 618 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: malicious damage to property like vandalism. That's the extent of it. 619 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: And in my police career, I've never seen or it's 620 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: very rare to see anyone held in custody over an offence. 621 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 2: I was drugged too. It wasn't like I was going 622 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 2: out to destroy an ATM. 623 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get a sense, and I think 624 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: everyone would because, as you said, people talk about it 625 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: like it's a movie. It's something like you see on TV. 626 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: You can't imagine that you'd be caught up in that environment. 627 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, three weeks. The first three weeks we talked 628 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: about the first twenty four hours. What was your day 629 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: to day? How did you survive? 630 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 2: I just I don't know. It was first of all, 631 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 2: there was no room to strut around, no room at 632 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 2: all in those cells for the first few days. They're 633 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 2: that packed full of people. 634 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: What are we talking? How many? How many people? 635 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,959 Speaker 2: I think, like I said, about fifty or so people. 636 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 2: It was a very small room, maybe more because people 637 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 2: would just keep coming in and it gets so full 638 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 2: they'd have to move them to the next cell. But 639 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 2: you're only there and those cells for two or three days, 640 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 2: and then you get moved to somewhere bigger. I just 641 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,839 Speaker 2: kept my back to the wall and kept my eye 642 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 2: on everyone. I didn't sleep for those days at all. 643 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: First three days, I think I didn't. I didn't eat. 644 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 2: Someone gave me a bottle of water and that lasted 645 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 2: year a few days. 646 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: Too, okay. And it didn't eat is there was no 647 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: opportunity to eat, or you just couldn't stomach the food 648 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: that was being served up. 649 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 2: They didn't They didn't really serve too much food, just 650 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 2: some rice and stuff. And I was just at that stage. 651 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 2: I don't think it was a decision not to eat. 652 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 2: I just couldn't. And in those cells too, you don't 653 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 2: get let out. You're in there twenty four hours. There's 654 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 2: no going out and having to walk around. So you're 655 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 2: basically sitting up against the wall for twenty four hours 656 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 2: a day. 657 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: Was there room to lay down sleep, No, not a 658 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:15,439 Speaker 1: nut cell. 659 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 2: No, not at all. 660 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: Not enough room for everyone that lay down. 661 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,879 Speaker 2: No, you're doing well if you've got a water lean 662 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,959 Speaker 2: up against. People areling on top of each other, They've 663 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: got there cuddling each other. You know, there's all sorts 664 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 2: going on. 665 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: Okay, three days in there, can it get any worse? Where? Okay? 666 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: Where do they move you too? 667 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 2: Okay? So that I went into K three. So this 668 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 2: building is basically it looks like a big chicken coop, 669 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 2: so K one, K two, K three, K four and 670 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:59,439 Speaker 2: an aluminium roof, one fan in each, big pots where 671 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 2: they cook on the floor with the rice and the 672 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 2: boiling water. And there's four hundred in a cell, four 673 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 2: hundred in each the heat in there, like. 674 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: What are we talking the size of the self for 675 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: four hundred people to be in there, let's picture an 676 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 1: Olympic sized swimming pool. Let's say a quarter of an 677 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: Olympic sized swimming pool. Four hundred people. 678 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and they're renting out the captain in 679 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 2: there is renting out the wall space. So that was 680 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 2: forty dollars American a month to lean up against a wall. 681 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 2: And then you got the only fresh water that they had. 682 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:37,800 Speaker 2: That was your VIP. 683 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: And did you have money in there? Did you have 684 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 1: cash in there? Not at that time, no, So you 685 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: had nothing to do but bother with No. That's why 686 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't eaten as well, was anyone in there any 687 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: foreigners or anyone that spoke English? 688 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,919 Speaker 2: In my cell K three, there was an Indian guy 689 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 2: and a Nigerian guy, but they kind of kept themselves. 690 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 2: The Nigerian guy, admittedly, when I first walked in, he's 691 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 2: come over here, and I sat with him because there's 692 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 2: you know, three hundred and ninety odd Cambodians all looking 693 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 2: at you going through your stuff. I'll take that, I'll 694 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 2: grab this, you know. And yeah, and the heat, like 695 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 2: the heat in there was unbearable. It was like, I 696 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 2: don't know, shaking hands with the devil, like it's what 697 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 2: eight thirty nine o'clock in the morning, it's pushing forty 698 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 2: degrees and then humidity is up past ninety percent. You 699 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 2: when you wake, you're awake. You can't move when you 700 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,959 Speaker 2: sit up, and that's it. You sit and cross legged. 701 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 2: There's a bloke he cross legged, grind front of a 702 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 2: cross legged guy here cross legged. When you're sleeping, you're 703 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 2: sleeping like sardines, like literally sardines. Yeah. And for me, 704 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 2: unfortunately I got put over where those pots were taken. 705 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: Off the cooking pot. 706 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:06,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was on that floor there, which was 707 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 2: even hotter. But you're just sweating profusely the whole time. 708 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:15,720 Speaker 2: And you know, obviously for me not understanding the language, 709 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 2: you know, you don't know what they're saying. 710 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,919 Speaker 1: How long did you spend in those selves? 711 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 2: Three months, maybe a bit more than three months, just 712 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 2: over just. 713 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: Under Did they let you out at any time? 714 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that you got that was the two hours 715 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 2: one hour, so you're in twenty one hours. But it 716 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 2: was like it was you just go downstairs and that 717 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 2: was it. It was a basketball court, no basketball, but 718 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 2: just like a tennis court size area for people to 719 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 2: you know, walk around and. 720 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: Did you just keep to yourself or did you communicate 721 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: with anyone? 722 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 2: I tried to communicate with the Nigerian guy because he 723 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 2: could speak a bit of Kamai. So he was the 724 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 2: one who first got me out the gate to get 725 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 2: to the phones. First time. He could say enough to 726 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 2: the guard to get me out to get to speak 727 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 2: to someone on the phone, you know. 728 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:21,759 Speaker 1: So okay, Now, when that consular assistant turned up, what 729 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,399 Speaker 1: did they offer you or what did they. 730 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 2: Well, they just said they were trying to do everything 731 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:27,359 Speaker 2: they can. 732 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: Did they give you any hope? 733 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, they did it. First they said, well, you know, 734 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 2: we're doing everything we can. You know, we haven't really 735 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 2: done anything wrong. We should be able to get you 736 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 2: out of here. And looking back in it and our okay, 737 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 2: all right, And then they would they would leave a 738 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 2: little hands so open a bit of two paste and 739 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 2: it looked like it had been taken from a motel room, 740 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 2: like tiny you know, the tiny ones that you get. 741 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:55,840 Speaker 1: That was your care package. 742 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, one time I got chocolate and then that 743 00:42:58,680 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 2: was stopped. 744 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: Did you did you tell them about your concerns with 745 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: the violence and all that? 746 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, of course, and then the conditions and things 747 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 2: like that. I mentioned that at numerous times to them. 748 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: Your general health in an environment like that, you're describing 749 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: living in an unhygienic sauna with food that, yeah, wouldn't 750 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: be the normal food for your stomach. How are you 751 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: your surviving health wise? 752 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 2: I just started deteriorating. My skin was getting worse and worse. 753 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 2: I was losing weight rapidly. You just feel nauseous all 754 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 2: the time. He's mentally fatigued. Like I said before, a 755 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 2: day feels like a week or a month in there, 756 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,280 Speaker 2: because you just you're constantly so hyper vigilant. Your anxiety 757 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 2: is so high, and you're just constantly looking around to 758 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 2: see what's coming at you. And it's coming at you 759 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 2: all the time. It's not coming from someone over here. 760 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 2: It's coming from someone trying to do shifting on you. 761 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 2: Over here. Someone's trying to steal something, someone's trying to 762 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 2: get something. And that does you know you're in And 763 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 2: you start seeing yourself going in a depression because of 764 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 2: your situation quite early on, you know, or you go 765 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 2: into yourself and you'd see it with other foreigners as well, 766 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 2: or you're seen it in Cambodians too, to be fair, 767 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 2: you just see people get worse and worse, and it 768 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,319 Speaker 2: makes the mill. There were some tough times in K three. 769 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that depression and you're giving up, giving up hope. 770 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,080 Speaker 1: Were you at the point where, yeah, not being there 771 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: was a better option? 772 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah. The only thing that kept me going was 773 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 2: my son. If it wasn't for him, I dare say, well, 774 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,959 Speaker 2: and my ex partner send him money. If she didn't 775 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,320 Speaker 2: send that money, I wouldn't be talking in our Gary. Yeah, 776 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 2: that's one hundred percent. Yeah. If you don't have money 777 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 2: in that prison, your dead is dillan jup. 778 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,839 Speaker 1: Yeah. How old was your son at the time? 779 00:44:59,160 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 2: Fo? 780 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 1: So that sort of kept you kept you alive? 781 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? 782 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, where did your some think you were in the 783 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: twelve months or so you're away? 784 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,360 Speaker 2: He was told, And when I spoke to him, I 785 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 2: just told him I was. I was stuck in it 786 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:16,360 Speaker 2: as he put an arrowport, you know, and being four, 787 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,040 Speaker 2: you know, but he was Yeah, he just wondered where 788 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 2: I was. And when I was coming home, I was like, 789 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,280 Speaker 2: I'm still stuck here, mate, but I'll be home soon. 790 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 2: So that's basically what I could tell him. And you know, 791 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 2: I mean I had my fiftieth birthday in there, Christmas 792 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,760 Speaker 2: as well and all that other stuff. 793 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 1: Okay, that's a different type of fiftieth birthday. Yeah, did 794 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: you celebrate? 795 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 2: No, No, not at all. And the bad thing about 796 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 2: it was I was on the phone talking to her saying, oh, 797 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 2: the lawyer's saying I'm going to be out before my 798 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,919 Speaker 2: fiftieth birthday and that didn't happen. And then she's like, oh, 799 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 2: there was a bit of a stuff up in the paperwork. Look, 800 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 2: you're going to be getting out at Christmas time. So 801 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,359 Speaker 2: I'm there telling my son and my ex partner, I'll 802 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 2: behave for Christmas. I can see the sun. You know, 803 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 2: it's gonna be great. Comes to you know, Christmas time 804 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,439 Speaker 2: doesn't happen. His birthdays on January ten, I was I'll 805 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 2: be there for his birthday. Doesn't happen. It just isn't. 806 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,080 Speaker 2: Set Back after setback, and that just that just makes 807 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 2: you feel horrible and you really it really knocks you 808 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 2: about that kind of stuff. And they do that, they 809 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 2: grind you down. They grind you down. Like I don't 810 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 2: know if I mentioned you mentioned to you when we're 811 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,840 Speaker 2: speaking before, but they used to play this music every. 812 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: Morning wake up. 813 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. It was in Kamai and it was some kind 814 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,800 Speaker 2: of brainwashing. Guys were screaming going stop this, stop this, 815 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 2: stop this, you know, like foreigners, and it would start 816 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 2: at four in the morning and wouldn't stop till you 817 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,440 Speaker 2: were let out of yourselves. And that was every morning, 818 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,279 Speaker 2: and it was breaking people mentally. I mean, I know 819 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:59,120 Speaker 2: I've jumped around a little bit there, but yeah, yeah, 820 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:03,480 Speaker 2: well again going back to K three, they were scary times. 821 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 1: Did you find was there any time where you felt 822 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,479 Speaker 1: a piece or was it just twenty four to seven. 823 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:14,399 Speaker 2: No, there was never a peaceful moment. Maybe a couple 824 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,720 Speaker 2: of times in the park with the other foreigners, because 825 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,800 Speaker 2: the foreigners kind of who could get to the park 826 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,000 Speaker 2: kind of stuck together, and a lot of them are 827 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,000 Speaker 2: hard done by and a lot of them are cash cows, 828 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 2: so they've got no chance of kind of getting out 829 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:35,879 Speaker 2: because they just keep taking money from them and run 830 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 2: it like a business. 831 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,000 Speaker 1: Sorry, no, I hear what you're saying. And yeah, it 832 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 1: might seem bizarre that we're looking at that way or 833 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,520 Speaker 1: discussing it, but the way you explained to me, if 834 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: they're getting money from you, everyone wants a piece of 835 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 1: the money you've got because you're the rich foreigner. The longer. 836 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,400 Speaker 1: They keep you in there. Everyone everyone benefits. 837 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,800 Speaker 2: And you're spending money at the shops and you're bribing 838 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 2: every police officer and guard to get through and do 839 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 2: another section every time. 840 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, you said that. It was in what 841 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,840 Speaker 1: you wrote down to get from one yard to another. 842 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:10,720 Speaker 1: It was basically you had the handover cash. 843 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, fifty thousand reel, which is twelve dollars fifty American. Yeah, 844 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,799 Speaker 2: you just put it in his pocket. Some guards sometimes 845 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,120 Speaker 2: they'd take a couple of cigarettes and a bottle of water, 846 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,000 Speaker 2: depending on how their day was going. But a lot 847 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:26,920 Speaker 2: of them they just hate the money. And if you 848 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,800 Speaker 2: give them twenty thousand reals they get angry at you 849 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 2: because it wasn't enough. 850 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,720 Speaker 1: You know what was the attitude of the guards? 851 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:44,960 Speaker 2: Oh brutality again that stone face. Look, I had to 852 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:51,600 Speaker 2: say this, but evil, a look of evil and cruelty. 853 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 2: And they have you know, they don't get paid a 854 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,280 Speaker 2: lot of money, but they've got a bit of power, 855 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 2: so they really flex that. You know that power. And 856 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,120 Speaker 2: you've got to understand too. Some of the senior guys there, 857 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 2: the top guys, the ex Khmer rouge, and if you 858 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,399 Speaker 2: know anything about them, life means nothing to them. 859 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,040 Speaker 1: Well, I hear what you're saying. I hadn't considered that. 860 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,359 Speaker 1: But the brutality of the takeover and what occurred in 861 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,000 Speaker 1: that country, and you're looking at people that experienced that, 862 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,320 Speaker 1: So there's a level of brutality that we couldn't even comprehend. 863 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 1: It was almost like a genocide that was going on there. 864 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,800 Speaker 2: Well, there was prisoners in there who were running military 865 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,480 Speaker 2: what would you call the military operations that were Khmer 866 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,279 Speaker 2: Rouge guys running the prison. You know, was mister pla 867 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,360 Speaker 2: ex Khmer Rouge and mate, you didn't even want to 868 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,440 Speaker 2: look at this guy the wrong way, Like when they 869 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,719 Speaker 2: came past those more soenior guys. You had to get 870 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 2: down on your knees and bow, you know, otherwise I 871 00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 2: couldn't imagine what problems you would have. 872 00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,200 Speaker 1: Well, look, we're gonna we'll finish here for part one. 873 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: And trust me when I say this, we've only just 874 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,560 Speaker 1: touched on the surface. But I just and we're going 875 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,160 Speaker 1: to talk about you know, we're talking about you've been 876 00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,840 Speaker 1: gang raped, We're talking about you've been stabbed, brutalities, watching 877 00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 1: someone being bash to death, all the things that you've 878 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,439 Speaker 1: encountered during your experience. But I just wanted to get 879 00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,359 Speaker 1: first up talking to you now, just get a sense 880 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,799 Speaker 1: of who you were, who you were before you went 881 00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,959 Speaker 1: in there, and how you survived, because what we're talking 882 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:36,320 Speaker 1: about here it's just terrific. 883 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:42,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I've just I've always been pretty resilient. I mean, 884 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,120 Speaker 2: my childhood wasn't the best. You know, my father wasn't 885 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,520 Speaker 2: a great father. Yeah, so I think from a young 886 00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:53,040 Speaker 2: age I learned to deal with that kind of side 887 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,359 Speaker 2: of things. But I'm not that kind of person, you know, 888 00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,600 Speaker 2: So to be thrown into that, I just had to 889 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,680 Speaker 2: keep telling myself, we can get through this, we can 890 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,560 Speaker 2: get through this. It was almost like a mantra. Some 891 00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,440 Speaker 2: days I'd be walking up and down the yard just 892 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 2: to try and keep fit. When I got moved to 893 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,120 Speaker 2: the hospital because it was a bit more room, you 894 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:19,160 Speaker 2: could go to the park. Just I'm getting out soon, 895 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 2: I'm getting out soon, I'm going to see my son. 896 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 2: I just repeat it over and over in my head. Yeah, 897 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,160 Speaker 2: and that to kind of block out all the noise 898 00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:29,319 Speaker 2: and stuff for a while, at least for an hour 899 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,759 Speaker 2: or so, you know, And I just keep walking up 900 00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,400 Speaker 2: and down, up and down, almost like a cage animal. 901 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,840 Speaker 2: But but I was doing it because I wanted to 902 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:43,600 Speaker 2: stay relatively healthy. Just yeah, if you're doing something, they 903 00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,440 Speaker 2: kind of leave you alone. Sometimes other times they wouldn't. 904 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:48,960 Speaker 1: But if you just you know, look like you got purpose. 905 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there's a you know, a couple of Chinese 906 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:57,799 Speaker 2: blaces exercising too, and you know a few others as well. Yeah, 907 00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:02,120 Speaker 2: you know, like they were kind of a line occasionally. 908 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, well, thanks An, we'll take a break and 909 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,720 Speaker 1: when we come back to part two, we'll delve deeper 910 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,160 Speaker 1: into it and how you actually got out of the 911 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:17,400 Speaker 1: prison as well, which is even that was complicated. Yeah, 912 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,720 Speaker 1: you've got a flogging on the way to the airport. Yeah, okay, 913 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:21,600 Speaker 1: we'll be back soon.