1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: M all right, Okay, we've just pulled up. 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 2: We have Okay, Nina and I have spent too long together. 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 3: Well, I was going to say, what's on the sign? 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: Certainly helps you? 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, we are for the recording audience. 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: We've started to bicker at each other. I'm waiting for 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 2: you to say, so, Dan, where are we? 8 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 3: I was gonna, you know, for once, I was going 9 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 3: to say. 10 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 2: Where we were, but we hadn't pulled up with Should 11 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 2: we not bicker anymore? 12 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: All right? 13 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: But in fairness, we're two years in to working on 14 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 2: this podcast, months past where we expected to finish, and 15 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 2: we're both tired. Can we do a piece of microphone? 16 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 2: Just talk? I'll talk, you record what talk. We're also 17 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: still driving right now. We're near the small town of 18 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: Old Bar on the mid north coast of New South Wales, 19 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: which is a out three quarters of an hour south 20 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: of Kendall, the town where William Tirell was reported missing. 21 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: Driving this dirt road, we passed between two walls of forest, 22 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: the trees seeming to crowd closer in upon us. Then 23 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: suddenly the country opens to our right. There are long 24 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:28,279 Speaker 2: empty beaches, the blue sky, the sun's sparkling in the water. 25 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: Oh fuck, it's gorgeous, or it would be gorgeous if 26 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: this wasn't the likely sight of another unsolved murder and 27 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: getting out of the car the wind wasn't whipping in 28 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: as sharp as knives across the ocean. This is a 29 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: place called mud Bishop's Point Reserve. You can hear the 30 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 2: trees and just over there's the water coming down from 31 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 2: the Manning River, and it's a beautiful place. Out to 32 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: our right there's just these golden beaches. But back in 33 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: December nineteen ninety six, a thirty eight year old mum 34 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: called Margaret Cox. She had three kids. She was last 35 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: in on a Thursday night in Taree, which is about 36 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: twenty kilometers away from here, and a couple of days 37 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: later her body was found in the water near here. 38 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 2: Margaret's underwear, carrying the DNA of four other people, was 39 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: found at the picnic reserve near where Nina and I 40 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: are standing. Like Helen Harrison whose death we looked at 41 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: in the last episode, Margaret's killing is still unsolved, meaning 42 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: her family don't have any answers, except that a coroner 43 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: found she had been raped, was killed by blunt force 44 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: injuries to her head, and that it wasn't possible to 45 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: say if Margaret was still alive when her body was 46 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: put in the water. And the other thing the coroner 47 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: found was that it was most likely a local who 48 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 2: was involved in whatever happened to Margaret, because this area's 49 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: a long way out of town, at the end of 50 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: a long dirt road. There's no street lights, so you 51 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: come here at nights and it would be pitch dark. 52 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: The only light would be your car headlights, and you'd 53 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: have to be a local to even know this place existed. 54 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: I'm Dan Box and from news dot com dot Au. 55 00:03:46,840 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: This is Witness William Tyrrell, Episode fourteen, Margaret. 56 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 3: Thank you, gentlemen. Stop recording. 57 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: To get a sense of why Margaret's case is still unsolved. 58 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 2: Almost thirty years later, Nina and I sit down again 59 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: with Gary Jubilin, the former detective who once led the 60 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: investigation into William Tyrrel's disappearance. All right, hey, listen, what 61 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: we're going to do is talk you through these two 62 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 2: unrelated cases. So we talked to you through Helen Harrison before, 63 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: and we're just trying to get your sense on anything 64 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: that comes to mind, particularly about the investigation. 65 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 3: So It's December of nineteen ninety six. It's the nineteenth 66 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 3: of December. It's a Thursday before Christmas. Margaret Cox was 67 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 3: a thirty eight year old single mom. She had three children, 68 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 3: and on that Thursday, Margaret had spent the day with 69 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 3: family and friends that had been consuming some alcohol from marijuana. 70 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 3: Then the group went out in the evening and they 71 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 3: decided to walk from Kendletown to Tarre in order to 72 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 3: go to a nightclub. 73 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 2: It's about five kilometers straight down the road. Tarree itself 74 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 2: is the big city on this stretch of the mid 75 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: North Coast, but it's not that big. With just over 76 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 2: twenty thousand people living there, it shouldn't be that easy 77 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 2: for someone to get lost. 78 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: Around midnight, they stopped at a service station, which was 79 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 3: where the Big Oyster was at the time. 80 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: Yep, the Big Oyster is just that, a big sculpture 81 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 2: of an oyster. It's meant, I think, to celebrate the 82 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 2: local oyster farming industry, and it's kind of why. It's 83 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: enormous and kind of goofy and kind of impressive and 84 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: also so kind of ugly. 85 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 3: Big ways to steal. Their service station has moved and 86 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 3: somehow during this point, Margaret gets separated from the group, 87 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 3: and no one's really sure what happened at that point. 88 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 3: The theory is that she either gets into someone's car 89 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 3: or a lift, or is taken in someone's car. 90 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 2: Essentially, she's not seen after this point at that service station. 91 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 4: And that's twelve midnight service station. Yeah, okay, how many 92 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 4: people wash you with? 93 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 2: We don't know the number. Two people who worked at 94 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: the service station told police they saw Margaret with either 95 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: another man or two men who bought a cigarette lighter 96 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: and then left. But someone else told the police that 97 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: he saw Margaret at the service station surrounded by a 98 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: group of men and screaming. So it's all confusing. 99 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 3: I mean, I'll say up front that we did apply 100 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 3: for the coronial inquest files for this case, and even 101 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 3: though I applied in October, I haven't received them. Dan, 102 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 3: you've also applied. 103 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: Yep, my got sent the findings, which is a single page. 104 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, not much help. 105 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: The inquest into Margaret's death was held in twenty ten, 106 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: fourteen years after she was murdered, and the coroner's findings 107 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: say the cause of her death was blunt force injuries 108 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: to her head inflicted on her by person or persons 109 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: unknown and the evidence available does not enable me to 110 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 2: make a finding as to the place of death. 111 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 3: So it's that was a Thursday night. The following Saturday morning, 112 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 3: Margaret's body was found floating in the Manning River. 113 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: So, if you don't know Tarre, Tarre's on the Manning 114 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: River and then that flows down to the coast, and 115 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: it kind of it splits in two and goes around 116 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: this big island and then hits the. 117 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 3: Coast yep, and some of her clothing was found in 118 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 3: a picnic area called mud Bishop's Reserve, where the police 119 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 3: and later the coroner theorized that she was sexually assaulted 120 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 3: multiple times. The police pretty quickly formed the opinion that 121 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 3: they thought the killer was local, mainly because it's not 122 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 3: an area that you'd likely find and access late at 123 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 3: night if you weren't already aware of that area. Dan 124 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: and I actually went to this area. Yeah, I would agree. 125 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 3: It's pretty hard. 126 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 2: There's no way you'd know about it unless you knew 127 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: the area. 128 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 4: And that assumption is a reasonable assumption if we're looking 129 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 4: at an area that if you're from out of the town, 130 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 4: you don't even know about it. So I think that's 131 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 4: a reasonable assumption. 132 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: And the other point is it's not in Tire, so 133 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: she's last seen in Tire and then mud Bishop's Reserve 134 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: where her clothes are found and the coroner and the 135 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: police think that she was assaulted. That's a decent drive, 136 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: maybe ten to fifteen minutes, but it's out a tarre 137 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 2: down following the river, you hit another little town called 138 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 2: Old Bar and then from there it's not easy to 139 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: find your way up to this reserve. People fish there, 140 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 2: people might go there for I don't know, teenagers might 141 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: drink there. It's not an obvious place to go at all. 142 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: So the police first they looked at the ex boyfriend. 143 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: He was a truck driver and he'd actually driven from 144 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: Grafton I think to Taree and he'd signed in at 145 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: a nearby sailing club on the Thursday night that Margaret 146 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 2: went missing, so he's an obvious person to talk to. 147 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: They spoke to him. He said the relationship ended weeks 148 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: before and he had an alibi, so they kind of 149 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: scratched him. Police interviewed everyone they could find who'd been 150 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: on the highway that day, so thousands of inquiries. They 151 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 2: spoke to fishermen who'd been near where the clothing was recovered, 152 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: and they treated some of those as potential suspects. At first, 153 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 2: police learned that upstream at a bridge, some people had 154 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 2: heard screaming on the night that Margaret went missing, But 155 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: the investigation started to feel like it was getting bogged down. 156 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: Three homicide detectives from Newcastle came up, spent several months 157 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 2: in Tare. Another couple of detectives came up and took 158 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 2: the lead from the local cops. So at this point, 159 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 2: does that sound like a comprehensive police response. 160 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 4: Well, they're treating seriously if they know the fight homicide, 161 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 4: So you'd send a team of three. That seems normal 162 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 4: with the family who was with her? Was anyone from 163 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 4: the family with her at the time of her disappearance? 164 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that day and that night she was with 165 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 2: family and friends. 166 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, my instinct from a homicide detective, the answer 167 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 4: lies in at the service station, which pretty much stayed 168 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 4: in the obvious, saying it was the last place she 169 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 4: was seen alive. But yeah, how she wandered off from 170 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 4: a group with no one in the group knowing. 171 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 2: The answer to how Margaret got separated from the group 172 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 2: might be in old newspaper reports, which Nina found in 173 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 2: the State library. These say that Margaret was one of 174 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 2: four people drinking together that night. They say the group 175 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 2: drank two bottles of Jim Beam and a four liter 176 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 2: cask of wine. One other group later described Margaret saying 177 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 2: she could stand up, but if you asked her to 178 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 2: walk in a straight line, it would have never happened. 179 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 2: So pretty drunk. About eleven or eleven thirty that night, 180 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 2: the group somehow drove from Tai to nearby Condletown to 181 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 2: keep drinking. Only they ran out of drink in Condletown, 182 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 2: so three of them, including Margaret, walked back. Then that 183 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 2: group split. Margaret wanted to get a cigarette lighter, so 184 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: she went to the service station and the other two 185 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: walked onto a caravan park to call on a friend. 186 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 4: My focus, if I was looking at an investigation being 187 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 4: called out the bet would be focusing very much on 188 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 4: everyone's movements. Was anyone showing the particular interest in that night? 189 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 4: A group going for a drink, kicking on a nightclub. 190 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 4: Invariably people are starting the pair up or someone that's 191 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 4: shown an interest in her that night, thinking that he 192 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 4: might be their man. 193 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 3: Up until at least we get to, like the ten 194 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 3: year anniversary of the crime. The police are still saying 195 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 3: in the media, you know, this can be solved. They 196 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 3: don't seem like they've given up. 197 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 2: They also don't seem to have had much success for 198 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: different reasons. Different police officers were put in charge of 199 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: the case over the years, and none of them was 200 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 2: able to be certain where exactly Margaret died. There was 201 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: no blood or sign of a struggle, meaning they didn't 202 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 2: have a lot of evidence. 203 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 3: There's at least three or four persons of interests that 204 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: were named the inquest. So early on the police released 205 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 3: a photo fit of a man that they believed had 206 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 3: been camping in the mud Bishop's Reserve area, and they 207 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 3: released an image of him and the description of his car, 208 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 3: which was a white four wheel drive Land Rover, and 209 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 3: as a result of that, a number of people identified 210 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 3: the same man as being the man from that photo. 211 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: That man was not Frank Cabot. 212 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 4: Mud Bishop Reserve was where her clothing was found. There 213 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 4: I see the primary crime scene, I would suggest as 214 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 4: a service station. I didn't get overly excited about the 215 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 4: secondary crime scene. Someone in the area and again, this 216 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 4: is just what's going through her mind in that why 217 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 4: did she get to that location? She didn't have a car. 218 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 4: How did she get to the picnic area where a clothing. 219 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 3: Was found, because she's got to get there. 220 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's who meets the service station and takes 221 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 2: her there. 222 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 4: That's where I'd be looking. I wouldn't be overly concerned 223 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 4: who was around where her clothes were dumped. 224 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 3: But the coroner ultimately ruled there was not enough evidence 225 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 3: to point to a likely killer or to charge anyone. 226 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: They also mentioned DNA, so the coroner mentioned that there 227 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 3: was a DNA of four people on Margaret's underwear. Ye, 228 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 3: three of those people have been identified and one hasn't. 229 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 4: Right, Okay, Certainly, if her clothes have been dumped, her 230 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 4: body has been dumped in the river, and it looks 231 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 4: like she's being sexually assaulted, the DNA on the underwear 232 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 4: would be of vital interest. 233 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 5: Yeah. 234 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 3: But presumably if they've identified three of those people, they 235 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 3: aren't suspects. They must have been ruled out. 236 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: Again, the media reports are confusing, but it looks like 237 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 2: three of those DNA profiles were identified and two of 238 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: them ruled out as suspects at the inquest, leaving one 239 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: other identified person and a fourth DNA profile that's never 240 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 2: been identified. But one thing does stand out from the 241 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: media reports, and that is that Margaret had a bandage 242 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: on her left arm. The newspaper report says she suffered 243 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: a very extensive laceration on her left arm shortly before 244 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 2: her death. Another report is different, that one says that 245 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 2: she'd had what it called certain surgery earlier that December. 246 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 4: So I keep coming back to if you're looking at 247 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 4: the person of interest, you're looking at someone that was 248 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 4: in the. 249 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: Group or who met the group at that service. 250 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 4: Station, potentially met the group at the service station. But 251 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 4: the game then you've got that random meeting of a 252 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 4: predator and the victim at a location where you wouldn't 253 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 4: expect to find the victim. 254 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. OK, So that's all that was known at the 255 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: time and since then essentially nothing until the William Tyrrell 256 00:15:47,520 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 2: inquest as we go, hang you, This is Iris Northam. 257 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 2: She's a kind face and slightly plump and smiling, older woman. 258 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: She looks like a grandma out of Central Casting. And 259 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: this is Nina. Iris and her husband Dooley live in 260 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 2: a little single story brick house surrounded by bright flowers 261 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: in old bar, the tiny town just down the dirt 262 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: road from where Margaret's clothing was discovered. Nina and I 263 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 2: have come to visit them because of a witness statement 264 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 2: which we found among dozens of other exhibits released to 265 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 2: us by the coroner from the inquest into William Tyrrel's disappearance. 266 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: That witness statement is from Iris, and it sets out 267 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 2: the evidence that she'd be prepared to give as a 268 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 2: witness in court. That statement is also the first time 269 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: the story of Margaret Cox's disappearance and her murder intersects 270 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:16,959 Speaker 2: with our story about Frank Abbot, and its full contents 271 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 2: have never been made public before. 272 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 5: Now, so you're doing a follow up on this. 273 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 2: In her witness statement to the William Tyrrell Inquest, Iris 274 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 2: explains how she first met Frank Abbott. 275 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 5: His father. 276 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 6: Was a customer of it US. We hit the script 277 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:50,959 Speaker 6: medically out and his father used to bring a bit 278 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 6: of script medal in Andy and one day just come 279 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 6: in he stole. 280 00:17:58,960 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: My son. 281 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 6: Frank's looking for a job. He can do anything that 282 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 6: he's been in jail done. 283 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 5: He just got out of something. 284 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 2: That noise you can hear in the background is me 285 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: talking to Iris's husband, Dooley. Dooley's getting on these days. 286 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 2: He stooped over. He struggles to walk and it's hard 287 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 2: to break away from the conversation. 288 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 6: And my husband said, bring him in if you can 289 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 6: do the work whatever I want done. 290 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 5: And then when he came in, he just talk like 291 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 5: a normal person. He didn't put yeah yeah. 292 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 6: And then when he started work, you know, you just 293 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 6: ask him to do something, you go, I'll do no 294 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 6: back chattle anything. He didn't talk that much, but if 295 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 6: you talk to him, it's sort of pretty insurance whatever. 296 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 6: But well, he only worked for us fur Book months. 297 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 5: I suppose it might have been that. 298 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 2: One the reason Frank stopped working for them was that 299 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 2: he got arrested in nineteen ninety one over the murder 300 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 2: of Helen Harrison, which we talked about in the last episode. 301 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 6: One day, one of the policemen come to wear a 302 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 6: place and he said, oh, Frank Abbott's not going to 303 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 6: be working for you anymore. He said, we just arrested 304 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 6: him for murder. 305 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 2: And I said, what, Frank was found not guilty. 306 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 5: He just said that everything was cleared. I said that 307 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 5: he was not guildy by now. 308 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 2: Dooley and I are both sitting at the kitchen table 309 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 2: listening to Iris. I asked her, did it ever worry 310 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 2: you that Frank was put on trial for murder? 311 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 6: It's sort of sort of did, but yeah, he sort 312 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 6: of didn't. 313 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 5: Didn't sport the press on it too much. 314 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: Instead, they stayed friend. Iris says, Frank and Dooley used 315 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: to gamble together on the horses. 316 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 6: They are planters, of course, they bring up the sounds 317 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 6: has writing today And anyway, Frank moved to John's River 318 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 6: and hittering happens. What do you fancy for race number 319 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 6: six or something? And they'd be talking away there for 320 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 6: half an hour, think oh, yeah. 321 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 5: This one's a good one. That wrong, And you know 322 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 5: they just chatter on, just mates, just. 323 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 2: Mates for years. An Iris doesn't seem to bear Frank 324 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 2: any malice today. Did you ever hear any other stories 325 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 2: about him? People saying things about that? 326 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 5: Since? Yes, since quite a lot. 327 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: Then we start talking about Margaret and what Iris says 328 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: in her statement to the William Tyrell inquest. 329 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 6: When Margaret Cox went miss she went missing on a 330 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 6: Thursday night. On the Saturday morning they found a body 331 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 6: in the river, and on the Sunday we went to 332 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 6: an auction. 333 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 5: It was a film I had yet to have an 334 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 5: auction every month, and the yaid, there's Frank, we've got 335 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 5: a few minutes before you know, we've got to be there. 336 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 5: So when out and we're talking Frank and anyway, Burley 337 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 5: said to him, Frank, what did you do to you arm? 338 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 5: Because he had all these gaut marks on his arm, 339 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 5: and Frank just said, oysters. That was it. 340 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 2: Oysters from the local oyster beds around Tyree, the ones 341 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 2: that inspired the big Oyster in the wild. Oysters have 342 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 2: really sharp shells. They scratch. In her statement, Iris says 343 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 2: Frank had about seven or eight gouge marks between in 344 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 2: his left wrist and his elbow. 345 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 6: Always just don't do that. I fell on the oysters 346 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 6: once and they don't do that. They just slash. 347 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 2: So what was the difference with these? 348 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 6: They were gouge marks, like someone had gouged skin it 349 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 6: with the actual flesh out with. 350 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 2: Their fingernails, and so these weren't Did you think anything of. 351 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 5: That at the time, Well, I did and I didn't. 352 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: Speaking to Gary Jubilin, Nina reads out this section from 353 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 2: Iris's statement to the Inquest. 354 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 3: The gouge marks were long and straight, and they looked 355 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 3: to be a couple of days old, as they had 356 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 3: that kind of festy look that wounds get before they 357 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 3: start to heal. 358 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: Yep. 359 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 3: I remember thinking that the marks on his arm really 360 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 3: didn't match what he was telling us. 361 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 2: As a former homicide detective, I asked, Gary, do you 362 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 2: read into that it. 363 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 4: Is concerning There's been a lot of murders solved by 364 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 4: someone carrying injuries that obviously what appear to be wounds 365 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 4: with someone struggling if they're being attacked, oyster marks as 366 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 4: distinct from straight scratches. Yeah, I offer a concern there. 367 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 4: I worry with contamination of Frank Abbott because his reputation 368 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 4: is so well known that people what we know about 369 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 4: Frank Abbott is a grub. You're testing memories from what 370 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 4: ninety six, if it was at the inquest, We're looking 371 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 4: at thirty years down the track. I don't know. I'm 372 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 4: trying to think thirty years back. Can I recall specific 373 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 4: injury or how it looks? Memory can do some funny things, 374 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,479 Speaker 4: so I wouldn't get overly excited, but I'd be curious 375 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 4: where Frank is. Certainly opportunity motive capability, as I always 376 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 4: talk about he would have the motivation, because he seems 377 00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 4: to be, in my understanding, the sexual predator capability, the opportunity. 378 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 4: Let's set missing ingredient. 379 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 2: Meaning can you prove Frank had the opportunity to do 380 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 2: anything to Margaret? So far, the answer is no. We 381 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 2: can't even say Frank ever met her. Although there is 382 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 2: a line in Iris's witness statement about. 383 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 5: Ken Ben bowling. 384 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,479 Speaker 2: She says Frank used to bowl in Tarree on a 385 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 2: Thursday night. It was a Thursday night that Margaret was 386 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 2: last seen in Tiree. 387 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 3: And so the bowling alley and I've confirmed it is 388 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 3: the same bowlier alien hasn't moved, is five minutes away 389 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 3: from that service station. We went to the bowling alley 390 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 3: and I said, can you tell me who was bowling 391 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 3: here thirty years ago? No, they can't, but they gave 392 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 3: me the name of someone who did bowl there thirty 393 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 3: years ago, and I tracked that guy down. Unfortunately, he 394 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 3: is a Tuesday Wednesday bowler, not a Thursday. 395 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 2: Which at least corroborates that there was bowling on a Thursday. 396 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 2: And the other thing we heard is that bowling was 397 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 2: big then and people would bowl late into the night, 398 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 2: which proves nothing. We don't know if Frank was bowling 399 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 2: on that Thursday, or what time the bowling finished, or 400 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 2: if that was the same time Margaret was last seen 401 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 2: at the service station. 402 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 3: I tried to be a detective, Gary, I'd. 403 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 2: Tried to be a detective too. 404 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 4: That didn't work out. 405 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 2: But there is one other thing. In Iris's statement to 406 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: the William Tyrrell inquest, she says Frank had another mate. 407 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 6: Yes, no, no, Santa, Yeah, could you tell us a 408 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 6: bit more about what Noel told you about faith. 409 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 2: In her witness statement, Iris says she and her husband 410 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: told Noel about seeing Frank with oyster scratches after Margaret 411 00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 2: was murdered. 412 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 5: Duley sort of mentioned it to him, and Narl said, 413 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 5: he said, I'm sure that's the woman that I saw 414 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 5: at Frank's with Frank. 415 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 6: He said she had a bandage or something on her arm, and. 416 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 5: I said, I don't know whether she had any bandages 417 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 5: or anything. 418 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 2: So when Noel told you this that he'd seen Margaret 419 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 2: at Frank's place with the bandage on her arm, did 420 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 2: he say when that. 421 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 5: Was a few days before? 422 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 2: A few days before? 423 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 5: Ye might have been a week, but it was only 424 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 5: a few days. 425 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 2: So Frank's mate Noel says he saw Margaret at Frank's 426 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 2: house sometime before she was murdered, and Noel recognized her 427 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 2: from the bandage, which we know she did have on 428 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: her left arm. As far as we can tell, this 429 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: claim that Nol saw Margaret at Frank's house has never 430 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 2: been made public, not at the inquest into Margaret's death 431 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 2: in twenty ten, nor at the inquest into William's disappearance 432 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: that ended last year. 433 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 6: Shortly after Narl had told us it was only probably 434 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 6: four or five days. 435 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,719 Speaker 2: Iris says her husband Dooley and Nol did try to 436 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: tell police about seeing Margaret at Frank's place. 437 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 6: Narl had been doing something for us. I'm not sure 438 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 6: what it was now, but anyway, Dearly was taking him 439 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 6: home because he lived at John's River near pretty near 440 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 6: over the Eye, and there was a police block. 441 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 2: Idea there'd been some kind of traffic incident, and. 442 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 6: They said, oh, we're just stopping peguin Dulian. 443 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 5: Nill tried to tell him about Margaret been. 444 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: There, but the cop didn't seem interested. 445 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 5: No, No, we've got someone for there. 446 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 2: I see, as in the cops already had a suspect. 447 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 6: They had three or four different people, and all sort of, 448 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 6: you know, sort of gone through what could have been, 449 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 6: what might have. 450 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 2: Happened, meaning what might have happened if the cop that 451 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 2: day had listened when they tried to tell him about Margaret. 452 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: So what did happen? To answer that, Nina tracks down 453 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 2: the detective who first led the investigation into Margaret's death. 454 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 2: His name is Dave Wilno, and we drive out to 455 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 2: meet him and sit with Dave and his wife at 456 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 2: the table in their cozy kitchen, reading out Iris Northam's 457 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: witness statement while Dave sits there without moving, his eyes closed, 458 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: chin on his hands because he's never heard any of 459 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 2: this before. Now, and Dave, I think, is a good 460 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 2: man who did his best with the investigation and who 461 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 2: deeply regrets not being able to give Margaret's family an 462 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: answer as to who killed her. We keep talking. After 463 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 2: more than two hours together, Nina and I finally stand, 464 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 2: shake hands and leave. So that I wasn't expecting. 465 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, so. 466 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 2: We've just been talking to a cop, Dave Wilno, and 467 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: he led the investigation into Margaret Cox's murder back in 468 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six. In tire and at the moment he 469 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: doesn't want to be recorded, but I think we can 470 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: say what we said to each other. And well, the 471 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 2: first thing I didn't expect is that, as well as Dave, 472 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 2: we met his wife, June. And while Dave was the 473 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 2: cop who led the investigation into Margaret's murder, June was 474 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 2: the nurse who treated Margaret in the week before she 475 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 2: went missing. 476 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 3: Yes, which is non information that I had from media reports. 477 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 2: I didn't know either. And this is the bit that 478 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 2: got me was we talked about the investigation, and we 479 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,719 Speaker 2: talked about different things, and we were there for a 480 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 2: good long time, a couple of hours. But then un 481 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: said that Margaret was in the hospital right up until 482 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 2: just before she went missing. In fact, June said she 483 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 2: was working the night shift and she worked the Thursday night. 484 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 2: Margaret went missing on the Thursday night, and June said 485 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 2: she came into the hospital and Margaret was gone. But 486 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 2: she also said something that got your attention, didn't it. 487 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, So she said that Margaret was being treated for 488 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 3: an infection, yeah, and that she had left hospital. She 489 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 3: had just had she had a pick line in treating 490 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 3: this infectation. 491 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: Yes, an intravenous line going into her arm. 492 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, And that caught my attention because of Irish Northam's statement. 493 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 3: And in that statement she said that Noel Sunter, who 494 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 3: was a friend of hers and a friend of Frank's, 495 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 3: said that he had seen Margaret Cox at Frank's house 496 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 3: shortly before the murder and that she had a bandage 497 00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 3: on her arm. 498 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 2: And this this is the thing that when I read 499 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 2: that in Iris Northham statement, I thought, it kind of 500 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 2: doesn't mean anything. You've got a secondhand account that somebody 501 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 2: saw Margaret at Frank's house kind of so what until 502 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 2: June told us that Margaret was in hospital until the 503 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 2: day she went missing and she was discharged with a 504 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: bandage on her arm. 505 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 3: Yep. 506 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 2: And Iris then says, a couple of days after Margaret 507 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: goes missing, she sees Frank with those scratch marks down 508 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 2: his arm. Suddenly, all of that seems much much more 509 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 2: important than it did before. 510 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 3: And it gives a frame of reference as well, because 511 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 3: her statement says shortly before the murder, yeah, which could 512 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 3: mean days, weeks, hours, but the fact that she had 513 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 3: the bentage on her arm, and we've got the nurse 514 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 3: that discharged her saying she was discharged that day with. 515 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 2: The bet, Yeah, so that puts it at Frank's house 516 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: the day she went missing. Have the police followed this 517 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 2: up when they got Iris's statement. Well, we know they 518 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 2: haven't spoken to June who was the treating nurse, but 519 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 2: maybe they wouldn't. And we know they haven't spoken to 520 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: the cop we just met Dave who led the investigation, 521 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 2: but maybe they wouldn't. But have the police followed up 522 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: with anyone about that statement that Frank might actually have 523 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 2: been with Margaret on the day she went missing. Before 524 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:37,959 Speaker 2: she disappeared, Everyone around the table in that kitchen today 525 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 2: was a little bit shocked by that. 526 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 4: You've got me more interested in the effect if Frank 527 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 4: Ebbertt knew her, that sort of changes the dynamics a bit. 528 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: We go back and ask Gary Jubilin as a four, 529 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 2: if this evidence about Margaret being at Frank's house changes anything. 530 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 4: I'd be looking if I was looking at this investigation fresh, 531 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 4: like in the actual time period you got Frank if 532 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 4: he knows the victim. To me, it feels like a 533 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,439 Speaker 4: local type crime. If I was looking at it, I'd 534 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 4: be looking for someone in the area. 535 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,439 Speaker 2: It might also mean that Frank knew she was going 536 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 2: out that night, if she was the woman with a 537 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 2: bandage on her arm seen at Frank's house. 538 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 4: And if she was seen at Frank's house, if we're 539 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 4: linking the bandage on the arm to being discharged from hospital. 540 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 4: So it's contemporary, it's not I saw in the house 541 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 4: ten years before. So it was Frank Abbott's reputation out 542 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 4: and about at that stage. 543 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 3: No, So it's interesting we asked about this because Frank 544 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 3: was arrested in ninety ninety one in tire and then 545 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 3: he goes through both of his trials whereas found not 546 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 3: guilty over the murder of Helen Harrison. That all wraps 547 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 3: up in ninety four, ninety five. So I did ask 548 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 3: the investigator who was leading the investigation to Margaret's death, 549 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 3: were you aware of Frank in the community and that 550 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 3: he'd been charged with a crime like that, and would 551 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 3: that make you more likely to look at him? And 552 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 3: he kind of said no, that they weren't really aware. 553 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 2: So they didn't know that Frank was living in the 554 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 2: area and had just been acquitted of abducting, sexually assaulting 555 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 2: and murdering a teenage girl. 556 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,280 Speaker 4: It shouldn't happen. I'm not saying that that couldn't happen 557 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 4: that police would miss that. I'm thinking back to ninety six. 558 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 4: I was in homicide and they operate. A person's name 559 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 4: comes up in the investigation and you'd be looking at 560 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 4: their past history, and it certainly flagged that if he 561 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,240 Speaker 4: was charged then acquitted of a murder. 562 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 3: Well, Frank's name didn't come up in an investigation. 563 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 4: So this information about knowing the victim, Margaret has come up. 564 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 2: Basically, it's come up as there was up with the 565 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 2: William Towell inquest. 566 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 3: Right it has. 567 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 4: But yeah, there's a lot of a lot of missing pieces. 568 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 2: That's one question I wanted to ask you is if 569 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 2: you were in unsolved handling this so it'd come to 570 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 2: the police as a result of IRIS giving this statement 571 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 2: in the William towol inquest, would you be getting in 572 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 2: touch with Margaret Cox's family to say we've got some information. 573 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 4: If I was in the unsolved homicide, which I have 574 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 4: been in the unsolved homicides, I'd want to have a 575 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 4: look at what's gone on, speak to the family, maybe 576 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 4: get access to the brief and answer all the questions 577 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 4: that I'm asking. 578 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 2: How would you go. 579 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 3: Back to IRIS after that statement. 580 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 4: Was made, Iris been the. 581 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 3: Woman who made this statement for the inquest. 582 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, that would be an obvious, obvious one. 583 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 2: And would you go back to Nils onto the guy 584 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,919 Speaker 2: who apparently said he saw Margaret at Franks Out. 585 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 4: I'd be going back to them, armed with all the 586 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 4: information that you've provided now, to sit down and potentially 587 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 4: get additional information based on the information that you've forecoming. 588 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 2: So what if I told you that IRIS gave that 589 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 2: statement in twenty nineteen, So we're five years on and 590 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 2: they've not heard anything from the police. 591 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 4: I'd be disappointed that I'm used to being disappointed. 592 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,760 Speaker 2: Gary isn't the only one who's disappointed that the police 593 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 2: haven't followed up with IRIS about Margaret Cox's murder. 594 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 5: Well, that's it, it is. 595 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 2: This is Iris. 596 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 6: When the coroner come here and he was asking questions 597 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 6: and things, and I'll mentioned. 598 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 2: That IRIS says someone from the coronial team investigating William 599 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 2: Toole's disappearance came to her house to take her statement 600 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 2: and sat where Nina and I are now sitting. 601 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 5: One of these was with him said, we'll mention that 602 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 5: the cold case Detectives, the. 603 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 2: Cold Case Detectives is the unsolved homicide team David Laidlaw, 604 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 2: who's running the police investigation into William's disappearance, is one 605 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 2: of that team's commanders. 606 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 5: But whether she did or not, I don't know. 607 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 2: So you've never heard that. 608 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 5: That was two thousand. 609 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 2: Cons lawyers came here and you obviously told them. They 610 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 2: said they'd tell, and you've never heard. 611 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 6: Anything, never heard, so I don't know whether they said 612 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,959 Speaker 6: anything or just completely forgot about it all. 613 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 2: And did you hear back from the police since the inquest. 614 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 2: Iris did give evidence in person at William's inquest, but 615 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 2: that in quest wasn't looking at Margaret's murder, and Iris 616 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 2: was only asked about part of what's in her statement 617 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 2: and the rest hasn't been made public before now talking 618 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 2: to US, Iris says it was one of who she 619 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 2: calls the girls who interviewed her at home to get 620 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 2: her statement, who said they passed the information on to 621 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 2: the cold case unit. We don't know who that person was, 622 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 2: though Iris's statement is signed by a female police detective 623 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 2: who was on the strikeforce investigating William's disappearance, so we 624 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,839 Speaker 2: know at least that she was in the room, and 625 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 2: we know no one has gone back since to talk 626 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 2: to Iris. 627 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 6: Well, I could probably Seisafi good? 628 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 5: But yeah, I just think I want to fly. I'm 629 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 5: an idiot. 630 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 2: Do you think they should talk to you? 631 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 5: WHOA? 632 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 6: At times I think, oh, I've got you know, I've 633 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 6: got to say something, even if if it's just to 634 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 6: ring Nicole case mob up on Friday out with the 635 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,399 Speaker 6: other said anything about it? 636 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 5: They got your information. Yeah, I do want to say. 637 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 5: I think you're holding you're feeling a lot of responsibility. 638 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 5: Oh yes, yes. 639 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 3: You have told someone and you have done your part. 640 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 5: You should know that. Well, yes, but I didn't follow 641 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 5: it up. I haven't followed it up. 642 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,919 Speaker 6: That's not really but I would like to know whether 643 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 6: she did see someone down there or mentioned it to someone. 644 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,240 Speaker 2: That's a good question. We asked New South Wales Police 645 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 2: if this evidence about Frank and Margaret was passed on 646 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 2: to the Unsolved Homicide Team in twenty nineteen, and if 647 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 2: they had done anything to investigate it. The police declined 648 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 2: to answer. 649 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 6: On getting older, Narl's getting older, whether it's sulam to 650 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 6: give any sort. 651 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 2: Of evidence, Iris is right to say she's getting older. 652 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 2: Her husband Dooley, who knew Frank well, is no longer 653 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 2: really up to being interviewed or giving evidence. And what 654 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 2: about Frank's other mate, Noel Sunter, the man who apparently 655 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 2: saw Margaret at Frank's house with a bandage on her 656 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 2: left arm shortly before she was murdered. Hello, Hi, is 657 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 2: that Utah? 658 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: Yes it is. 659 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 2: Eventually we track Noel down. This is his wife. I 660 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 2: tell her what we're doing. I'm a reporter and for 661 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 2: the past couple of years I've been working on a 662 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 2: podcast series about the investigation into the disappearance of that 663 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 2: little lad, William Tyrell, who went missing ten years ago. Now, 664 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 2: Utter explains Nol is also getting older and also no 665 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 2: longer really up for being interviewed, but he is with 666 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 2: her in the room as she and I are talking. 667 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 2: Reason to speak to yourself is that in one of 668 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 2: the exhibits that came out of the inquest, there was 669 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,280 Speaker 2: a witness statement given by a woman called Iris Northam 670 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 2: whose yes yes. In her statement, Iris is talking about 671 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 2: this woman who went missing in Tiree and was subsequently 672 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 2: found dead, a woman called Margaret Cox. She was the 673 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 2: mum of three who was found the old Yes. 674 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: Yes. 675 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 7: My personal opinion is I don't think they've investigated Frank 676 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 7: Abbott enough. 677 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: But that's just my opinion. 678 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,240 Speaker 2: Iris gave this statement to the inquest which mentions Nol 679 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 2: seeing my Margaret and Frank together. She gave this statement 680 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 2: four or five years ago, roughly have you heard from 681 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 2: the police in that time. 682 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 7: I'm trying to think, we're already in this house, and 683 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 7: we've been in this house now for when it were 684 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 7: moving six just over six years. It mustn't be about 685 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 7: five years ago, I'd say. When we got the message 686 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 7: from the police. Never heard from them again. It was 687 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 7: a woman and she said she'd call back, and that's the. 688 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 1: Last I heard. 689 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,839 Speaker 2: So you've never heard from the police about Margaret Corks. 690 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,040 Speaker 2: Has he ever mentioned Margaret to you? 691 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 7: I remember Noel saying that he saw a woman in 692 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 7: Frank's house. She had an arm in a sling or something. Noel, 693 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 7: you said, Nol doesn't talk so well anymore, wrapped up 694 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,480 Speaker 7: in a bandage in Frank's house. 695 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 2: And did he say who he thought that woman was? 696 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,800 Speaker 1: No, you don't remember who that was to you? 697 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 2: No? No, okay, So Noel today, five years on from 698 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 2: when Iris gave her statement about Margaret, Nol doesn't remember 699 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,359 Speaker 2: or can't say if he remembers who the woman was 700 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 2: that he saw in Frank's house, just that she was 701 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 2: wearing a bandage, And as it stands, that's not evidence 702 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 2: of anything, and maybe Noel was mistaken about who was 703 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:44,440 Speaker 2: with Frank. Too many years have passed since Margaret died 704 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 2: and since Iris gave her evidence to the inquest. But 705 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 2: you do think the police could have been asking these 706 00:44:55,120 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 2: questions back in twenty nineteen when Iris first up, and 707 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:02,760 Speaker 2: they haven't. 708 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,320 Speaker 7: We've all said all along that the police never investigated 709 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:07,879 Speaker 7: Frank enough. 710 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 2: What makes you say that he was just there was. 711 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,839 Speaker 1: Just something about Frank. 712 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 7: I didn't like him, and I never liked him, but 713 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,400 Speaker 7: it was, you know, Noah's friend and whatnot. 714 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 1: I think it was just creepy. That's the way I 715 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,360 Speaker 1: didn't describe it. Really. 716 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 2: Did he do anything in particular made you think he 717 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,799 Speaker 2: was creepy? 718 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:42,399 Speaker 7: Just he'd brush up against you, just yeah, yeah, yeah, 719 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 7: he was just. 720 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 5: Oh. 721 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 7: I tried to stay away from him, and because we 722 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,280 Speaker 7: lived so close, he used to call in quite readily. 723 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: So it's a bit. 724 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 6: Just. 725 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 7: I think anybody who you talk to about Frank would 726 00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 7: probably tell you the same thing. You know, he had 727 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,879 Speaker 7: a beautiful door atmember's daughter's names. 728 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: She was gorgeous. She was really lovely. 729 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,799 Speaker 2: You know, do you have any idea what happened to her? 730 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: I have no idea. 731 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,880 Speaker 2: We haven't been able to contact Frank's daughter either, and 732 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,879 Speaker 2: if you're out there and you want to talk, there's 733 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 2: an email address in the show notes. We've written to 734 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,880 Speaker 2: Frank Abbott in prison where he's serving time for child 735 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,439 Speaker 2: sex offenses, about Margaret Cox and whether he ever met her. 736 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 2: He hasn't responded to our questions. So this is what 737 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:49,000 Speaker 2: we do know. We know the police and the inquest 738 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 2: team investigating William's disappearance were told back in twenty nineteen 739 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 2: about one of their persons of interest and his alleged 740 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 2: links to a young woman who was murdered. We know 741 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,359 Speaker 2: the woman who gave that evidence was told it would 742 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 2: be passed on to the Unsolved Homicide team, but no 743 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:16,840 Speaker 2: one from the police has contacted her since, nor have 744 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:22,120 Speaker 2: the police contacted the other alleged witness she mentioned, nol Santer. 745 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:29,320 Speaker 2: And as we learn more about Margaret's death, that begins 746 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 2: to seem completely inexplicable, because we learned there was once 747 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:42,000 Speaker 2: a dedicated police task force called Task Force METS, who 748 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:46,760 Speaker 2: reportedly looked for any links between Margaret's killing and three 749 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:52,319 Speaker 2: other unsolved murders. So Nina and I start looking at 750 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:59,680 Speaker 2: those three killings and we find there are others other 751 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,920 Speaker 2: unsolved murders here on the New South Wales North Coast 752 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,520 Speaker 2: and the Irish Northam. Statement to the inquest into William's 753 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 2: disappearance links Frank to yet another of those cold cases, 754 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:26,080 Speaker 2: but that has never been made public until now. That's 755 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:33,400 Speaker 2: Next Time on Witness William Tyrrell. A lot of different 756 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 2: people have been involved in making this series. Among them, 757 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,279 Speaker 2: the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was 758 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 2: by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams, Jazzbar, 759 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,800 Speaker 2: Phoebe Zakowski Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Research by Aden Patrick, 760 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:55,200 Speaker 2: original music by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. 761 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,479 Speaker 2: The editor at news dot com dot Au is Kerry 762 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 2: Warren and Box