WEBVTT - Undercover in Hells Angels bikie club: Lou Valoze Pt.2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to part two of my chat with Lou Velosi,

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<v Speaker 1>a former US federal agent with the ATF who spent

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<v Speaker 1>over two decades working deep undercover. Lou so much to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about. I'm going to throw one thing out that

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<v Speaker 1>I heard on the podcast. I think it was on

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<v Speaker 1>the real one, but you talked about going into a

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<v Speaker 1>bikie clubhouse. I worked gangs for a long time, so

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<v Speaker 1>I know the environment you're talking about. That you went

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<v Speaker 1>into a bikie clubhouse on an announced to make some connections.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you want to just tell us through that story,

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<v Speaker 1>because it blew me away, the fact that you went

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<v Speaker 1>in there and how you manage yourself in that environment.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. You know, it was very early in

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<v Speaker 2>my undercover career. It was actually the first kind of

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<v Speaker 2>I guess what you would call organized crime case I

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<v Speaker 2>got pulled into. You know, I was only doing up

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<v Speaker 2>to that point, I had only done those back alley

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<v Speaker 2>you know, drug deals and gun deals that we talked about.

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<v Speaker 2>So and the only reason I got called into this

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<v Speaker 2>was I was the only agent in my field division,

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<v Speaker 2>the only other agent that had a motorcycle license. It

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't because of any skill or anything I had. I

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<v Speaker 2>really knew nothing about outlaw bakers, you know. I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>grow up in that environment, huge thing up in New York.

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<v Speaker 2>And so there was an undercover agent who was already

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<v Speaker 2>somewhat embedded with this gang and his partner, and in

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of these cases, very important they have a

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<v Speaker 2>partner just for a lot of reasons. His partner was

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<v Speaker 2>a local cop who was just on the task force,

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<v Speaker 2>and when his department saw they were supposed to go

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<v Speaker 2>with this gang down to a bike round at Daytona,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a big bike rally and all that, and

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<v Speaker 2>this was in Atlanta, Georgia. His department were like, listen,

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't really sign up for all this. We're going

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<v Speaker 2>to pull our guy out this. We're getting in a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit over his head, a little bit yeah, a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit deep. So ATF, you know, the ATF agent

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<v Speaker 2>in there needed a partner, so I got the all again.

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<v Speaker 2>The only reason was I had a motorcycle license. And

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<v Speaker 2>the only reason I had a motorcycle license was when

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<v Speaker 2>I was a kid, like I don't know, maybe seventeen

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<v Speaker 2>or eighteen years old, I had a Yamaha for like

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<v Speaker 2>three months.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>I was never any good at riding a motorcycle or

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<v Speaker 2>anything like that, and it never been on a Harley.

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<v Speaker 2>So but I never said no. So when they asked me,

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<v Speaker 2>I said, I'm in. Let's go. So uh you know,

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<v Speaker 2>when I got there, I met the informants, these two

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<v Speaker 2>huge biker guys, the undercover, and they gave me. They

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<v Speaker 2>gave me this chopper, you know, one of them old

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<v Speaker 2>kickstart shovel head Harley's. I didn't I couldn't figure out

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<v Speaker 2>how to start it, let alone ride it. Or so

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<v Speaker 2>they were like, hey, let's go follow us. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>driving through the north where North Georgia, driving into Atlanta,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was kind of misty, a little bit of

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<v Speaker 2>rain coming down, and these guys drive real fast and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to follow them, you know, the head like

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<v Speaker 2>the all I can say, our tail light's getting farther

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<v Speaker 2>and farther away. And I go around a curve and

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<v Speaker 2>I dropped the bike end up in a ditch. And

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<v Speaker 2>you know if you heard me tell the story before,

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<v Speaker 2>but that I'm in the ditch and the bike's still

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<v Speaker 2>the bike's still on everything, mirrors are all bent and everything.

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<v Speaker 2>And they finally realize I'm not behind him anymore. And

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<v Speaker 2>they come back and the big informant says to the

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<v Speaker 2>undercoverage and goes, you want us to bring this fucking

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<v Speaker 2>guy into the Outlaws clubhouse. He can't even ride a motorcycle.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I when I as bad as I was

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<v Speaker 2>hurting from the fall, when I heard him say that,

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, no, help me pick this bike up

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<v Speaker 2>and bend everything back as best we could. It was

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<v Speaker 2>still driveable, and so we went to this clubhouse. And

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<v Speaker 2>when I walked in, it was it was a shock

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<v Speaker 2>for me. You know. I again, I didn't have any experience.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know anything about these guys. It was just

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<v Speaker 2>an evil place. And I just got a really bad

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<v Speaker 2>feeling in there. And you know, there's these guys and

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<v Speaker 2>they're just some nasty fellas. I mean, you guys, you

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<v Speaker 2>got them over there. You know, they're some bad guys.

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<v Speaker 1>Man.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm in there and I realize, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know how to act. I don't know anything about

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<v Speaker 2>these guys. So you know, I'm going to listen to

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<v Speaker 2>my partner, my old my old partner, my first partner.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut for a while.

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<v Speaker 2>And I did. I just I just got I was

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<v Speaker 2>a wallflower, man. I just stood against the wall, and uh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, my my my new partner there is you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he's interacting with these guys and they're kissing and hugging

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<v Speaker 2>and drinking and all that, and I, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>just stood there, man, and I watched. I watched how

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<v Speaker 2>these guys carried themselves, how they handled themselves. And I

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<v Speaker 2>could tell right away who the president was by the

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<v Speaker 2>way he was being treated and all. And uh, after

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<v Speaker 2>probably close to forty five minutes of not saying a

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<v Speaker 2>word and just watching, I made the decision to approach

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<v Speaker 2>the president. I went up to the president. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>like I said before, I was real big back then,

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<v Speaker 2>and I you know, so I figured, you know, at

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<v Speaker 2>least I got something to offer. I'm a big goon,

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<v Speaker 2>at least young. And I said to the President, sir,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you know, this is my name, and this

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<v Speaker 2>is my first time here. I'm with SO and so.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't I don't know your your rules,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know your you know your culture, and I

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<v Speaker 2>certainly don't want to offend you or anybody else. I

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<v Speaker 2>just want to learn from you guys because I like

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<v Speaker 2>what I see and I want to become one of

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<v Speaker 2>you guys someday. And man, he just ate that up

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<v Speaker 2>because he's looking at he's just looking at this goon,

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<v Speaker 2>this big goon that that he can mold, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and make you lose, because that's what they do, They

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<v Speaker 2>use people, and making the one of his own. And

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<v Speaker 2>from that point he just he took a lake into

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<v Speaker 2>me and took me under his wing. And I learned

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<v Speaker 2>such a valuable lesson that day for my future long

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<v Speaker 2>term operations. You know, shut up, read the room right,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, talk very strategically to the right people. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Look, I wanted to unpack that and get you to

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<v Speaker 1>tell that story again because when you started telling the

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<v Speaker 1>story that you had a bike license, like, okay, that's

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<v Speaker 1>not going to make you look like you've been born

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<v Speaker 1>on the Harley Davidson be able to rock up to

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<v Speaker 1>a clubhouse and look, look the part and act the part.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was laughing with you, but also at you,

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<v Speaker 1>thinking who the hell's this bloke think he is? He's

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<v Speaker 1>going to pull this one off? Full cu thos to

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<v Speaker 1>you after you dropped the bike to get back on there.

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<v Speaker 1>But I understand when your pride's being insulted sometimes you

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<v Speaker 1>just got to suck it in. But I was really curious.

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<v Speaker 1>I was really because and if you want to talk

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<v Speaker 1>bikes with legitimate bikes are going to catch out within

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<v Speaker 1>saying halla if you don't know your way around the Harley.

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<v Speaker 1>But the other thing is I was really curious knowing

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<v Speaker 1>the atmosphere, and you described it very well. What goes

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<v Speaker 1>on in the clubhouse. It has a sense of menace

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<v Speaker 1>about it. The moment you set foot in there, how

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<v Speaker 1>you handle it. And it was a fascinating way that okay,

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<v Speaker 1>and I really got an insight into the way that

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<v Speaker 1>you would operate. Like you could have gone in there

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<v Speaker 1>and tried to talk as a tough guy and they

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<v Speaker 1>would have smelt you out straight straight away and think

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<v Speaker 1>how that this is not adding up? But the approach

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<v Speaker 1>you had seemed to just work perfectly for you.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I didn't like it. I never liked the

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<v Speaker 2>biker stuff. I only did two of those, which was

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<v Speaker 2>which was two more than I wanted to do. I

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<v Speaker 2>ended up after the Outlaws in Atlanta, I ended up

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<v Speaker 2>going to California maybe maybe three or four years later

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<v Speaker 2>and on a Hell's Angels, working under cover on a

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<v Speaker 2>Hell's Angels out of San Diego case. And I tell

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<v Speaker 2>you I never I never really got much better on

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<v Speaker 2>a motorcycle. And just to bring in the story full circle,

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<v Speaker 2>I actually, you know, I had an undercover motorcycle for

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<v Speaker 2>most of my career, and you know then I just

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of got into it a little bit, and

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<v Speaker 2>I probably owned maybe six or seven Harley's on personal bikes,

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<v Speaker 2>and but I never it just wasn't me. I never

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<v Speaker 2>was a good motorcycle rider. In about about five years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>we were going on a family vacation. I hadn't started

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<v Speaker 2>my bike in probably three or four months, so I said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what, let me just let me just ride

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<v Speaker 2>the bike around the neighborhood just to charge the battery.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I just drove around my neighborhood and it

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<v Speaker 2>had rained like the day before, and I was I

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't have been going more in two or three miles

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<v Speaker 2>per hour. I mean I was early moving, just taking

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<v Speaker 2>a turn. I went over some leaves. I didn't realize

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<v Speaker 2>they were wet underneath, and the bike went out and

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<v Speaker 2>I fell. I dumped the bike again. And I saw

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<v Speaker 2>that bike as soon as we got back from vacation,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've never been on one since.

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<v Speaker 3>So your bike riding days, Yeah, that was it.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a pretty It's a pretty easy way to make

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<v Speaker 1>a fool of yourself when you think you're sitting pretty

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<v Speaker 1>looking cool, And yeah, you shouldn't have gone over those leaves.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, you pull up and just drop the bike

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<v Speaker 1>and can't pick it up. But all these things that

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<v Speaker 1>can happen dealing with the pressure. There was another interesting

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<v Speaker 1>thing I've heard you say in interviews that you would

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<v Speaker 1>quite often go into boxing gyms or jiu jitsu and

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<v Speaker 1>get lit up by some some boxer, or you get

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<v Speaker 1>grappled to the ground and mauled by someone that's a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit better. The way that you were talking about it,

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<v Speaker 1>you're talking about, well, the pressure that you feel when

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<v Speaker 1>you're getting lit up by someone in the boxing ring

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<v Speaker 1>that's better than you and you still got two minutes

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<v Speaker 1>ago of a three minute round. That's the type of

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<v Speaker 1>pressure you need to be able to deal with when

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<v Speaker 1>you're you're undercovering the pressure spots. Is that something that

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<v Speaker 1>you would just work for you? Finding pressure, dealing with

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<v Speaker 1>pressure that way, that was.

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<v Speaker 2>About the only thing that worked for me. And it's funny,

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<v Speaker 2>very similar feeling to me to walk into a boxing

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<v Speaker 2>gym in some strange city to Spa was a very

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<v Speaker 2>similar feeling as walking into that outlaw biker clubhouse, right,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of enemy territory. You know, no one

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<v Speaker 2>knows you, but you know, a big guy walking into

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<v Speaker 2>a boxing gym, everyone's going to be looking at you.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, you're getting a ring and it is amazing,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, when you when you are not a professional

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<v Speaker 2>fighter and you get into a ring with a pro,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, even I'm just talking about these local pros

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<v Speaker 2>who just fight club like, you know, the skill difference

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<v Speaker 2>is just amazing.

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<v Speaker 3>And your up block at Christmas str Yeah, totally.

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<v Speaker 2>And if they ninety nine percent of them are cool,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, but you know there's always one. Sometimes it

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<v Speaker 2>goes overboard, but but it to me, it was it

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<v Speaker 2>was a mental exercise as much as it was physical exercise,

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<v Speaker 2>just to keep me on my toes and keep that

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<v Speaker 2>uh you know, that that sense of being uncomfortable, you know,

0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:34.600
<v Speaker 2>getting comfortable with being in an uncomfortable situation, whether it's

0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, whether you're someone's taking your back on the

0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.400
<v Speaker 2>mat in jiu jitsu, you know, or some guys just

0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.280
<v Speaker 2>just sending body shots into you, you know, in a

0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.760
<v Speaker 2>in a boxing ring, you know, to be able to

0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.400
<v Speaker 2>breathe and still keep your head and be comfortable in

0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:52.760
<v Speaker 2>those kind of situations. So to me, that that was

0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.000
<v Speaker 2>how I did a lot of guys, you know, would

0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.880
<v Speaker 2>just go out and drink their asses off, but that

0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.440
<v Speaker 2>that worked. Not that I didn't do that as well,

0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.600
<v Speaker 2>but that worked better for me to keep me mentally

0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:07.640
<v Speaker 2>sound during these things.

0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was fascinated that it came up in conversation

0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:13.960
<v Speaker 1>with you, and I just I could really relate to

0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.240
<v Speaker 1>it because it was a way of sort of separating.

0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:21.160
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, I also sometimes find have a drink and

0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:23.400
<v Speaker 1>forget about things, but then you wake up the next

0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:28.000
<v Speaker 1>day's it hasn't got it got any better. So, yeah, challenging,

0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.200
<v Speaker 1>challenging yourself there, And yeah, when you're walking in and

0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.000
<v Speaker 1>you would you would have walked in the court. I

0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.800
<v Speaker 1>always got nervous before I walked in the court. Didn't

0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:37.720
<v Speaker 1>matter that you weren't hiding anything. You knew you were

0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.960
<v Speaker 1>going to be carved up and carved up very publicly.

0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:45.240
<v Speaker 1>That you get a custom to that pressure that you're

0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:49.040
<v Speaker 1>comfortable being uncomfortable. And I could really relate to relate

0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:50.840
<v Speaker 1>to that, And it's just it's a good way. And

0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:54.560
<v Speaker 1>there's other ways you could find that. But let's let's

0:13:54.600 --> 0:14:00.319
<v Speaker 1>talk about the storefront sting, because it's a strategy that

0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.760
<v Speaker 1>you you became an expert on, like across the country.

0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.480
<v Speaker 1>And if I'm not wrong, it's yeah, the amount of

0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:08.600
<v Speaker 1>guns and drugs you got off the street from these

0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.760
<v Speaker 1>operations known there's a store storefront stink.

0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was you know, I start out by saying,

0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.960
<v Speaker 2>we did not invent the storefront you know concept that

0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, the ny PD and LAPD they were doing

0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.040
<v Speaker 2>these things back in the sixties and seventies, but for

0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.320
<v Speaker 2>the most part, they were just doing and they were

0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:34.240
<v Speaker 2>trying to disrupt these fencing operations stolen goods, you know,

0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:38.320
<v Speaker 2>so they would do little pawn shop type places and

0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:43.440
<v Speaker 2>to take in stolen merchandise. For the most part, we

0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:49.200
<v Speaker 2>took that concept and just blew it up and made

0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:54.760
<v Speaker 2>it bigger and bigger. And you know, I fell into

0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:59.000
<v Speaker 2>that kind of the same way, you know, I fell

0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.280
<v Speaker 2>into that bike case. I just got a phone call

0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.440
<v Speaker 2>from an agent who in another office, who said, hey, man,

0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.160
<v Speaker 2>would you uh you know, we have a we're starting

0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.080
<v Speaker 2>up this storefront operation. It's going to be a tattoo shop.

0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.400
<v Speaker 2>We're doing it in conjunction with the local Sheriff's department.

0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.040
<v Speaker 2>We need an undercover. Would you do the undercover? I

0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:23.800
<v Speaker 2>said absolutely, I'll be there tomorrow. And I didn't even

0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:27.960
<v Speaker 2>I didn't really even know what a storefront was. So

0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:29.760
<v Speaker 2>I went up there and I saw the setup they

0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.680
<v Speaker 2>had and it was phenomenal. Man. It was in a

0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:37.880
<v Speaker 2>really bad neighborhood, very ghetto, and it was a it

0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.760
<v Speaker 2>was a ghetto tattoo shop like it was the kind

0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.720
<v Speaker 2>of place you wouldn't want to get a tattoo for

0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:47.680
<v Speaker 2>the most part. And the informant was the tattoo artist,

0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.160
<v Speaker 2>and he was trying to stay out of prison and

0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:54.080
<v Speaker 2>he had already in prison. He had tattooed everybody, so

0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:59.000
<v Speaker 2>he knew the players. He knew everybody. And his deal

0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.200
<v Speaker 2>with you know, with the police and with ATF was

0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.320
<v Speaker 2>he was going to work off his charges by doing

0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.040
<v Speaker 2>this case. So he was just going to do the

0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.080
<v Speaker 2>tattoos and bring the bad guys in and it was

0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:15.720
<v Speaker 2>my job in my undercover team to engage them. And

0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:20.080
<v Speaker 2>it was a gang ridden place, gangs everywhere, and you know,

0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.600
<v Speaker 2>we were to buy the guns, buy the drugs, stolen cars,

0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:27.720
<v Speaker 2>whatever they were doing, and and you know, hopefully take

0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:33.200
<v Speaker 2>some of these gangs down. So we started and I

0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 2>was the manager of this place, and we had, you know,

0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.240
<v Speaker 2>we had the tattoo area with the chair and then

0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.160
<v Speaker 2>there was just like an area where we sold paraphernalia

0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:49.080
<v Speaker 2>and all the flash on the wall and rolling papers

0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:53.080
<v Speaker 2>and all that stuff. And I didn't really have high

0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.840
<v Speaker 2>expected I didn't really know what to expect. And you know,

0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:02.680
<v Speaker 2>as they started in, you know that people get tattoos,

0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:07.040
<v Speaker 2>and we started just having conversations. They had a lot

0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:11.159
<v Speaker 2>of good ideas. The Sheriff's department. They said, we're going

0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:16.880
<v Speaker 2>to put out a clear box of sharpiees markers and

0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.320
<v Speaker 2>the walls were all white, right, they didn't. They just

0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.360
<v Speaker 2>painted all the walls white. They said, we're gonna tell

0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.160
<v Speaker 2>these guys they can go ahead and they can tag

0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:26.720
<v Speaker 2>all the walls whatever they want, you know, just tell

0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.879
<v Speaker 2>them no hateing, keep it sill. So we told that

0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.760
<v Speaker 2>and they started tagging the walls and doing all their

0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.840
<v Speaker 2>gang signs and stuff. And you know, the whole no

0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.200
<v Speaker 2>hating thing. That lasted about ten minutes, right, and there's

0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.399
<v Speaker 2>their fin me veiled threats and you know, murder threats

0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:45.600
<v Speaker 2>and all that, and you know, we actually cut all

0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:47.399
<v Speaker 2>that out as evidence, all the drywall at the end

0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:51.560
<v Speaker 2>of the case. But we told these guys when they

0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.879
<v Speaker 2>would come in, listen, this is neutral territory. Everybody's welcome here.

0:17:54.960 --> 0:18:00.199
<v Speaker 2>No beefing when you're in here. It's neutral. So it

0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.199
<v Speaker 2>just started out real small. You know, they would come

0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.879
<v Speaker 2>in and they you know, everyone was smoking weed. And

0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.399
<v Speaker 2>there the informant was smoking weed. He wasn't supposed to.

0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.680
<v Speaker 2>All the everyone who was in there was smoking weed

0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.960
<v Speaker 2>except for us. But you know, there was no ventilation,

0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.520
<v Speaker 2>there was no I mean, so we were probably high

0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:23.080
<v Speaker 2>the whole time, I'm sure. And we just started making

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.600
<v Speaker 2>conversation with these guys and inevitably, you know, these guys

0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.520
<v Speaker 2>sell drugs and guns, and it came up and I

0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:35.000
<v Speaker 2>let them know that. My side hustle was I had

0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.800
<v Speaker 2>a moving truck, which we really did, and I would

0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.320
<v Speaker 2>move people, you know, from place to place. But I

0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.679
<v Speaker 2>would use that truck when I got enough guns that

0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:47.879
<v Speaker 2>I would sell in New York. And I don't know

0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.760
<v Speaker 2>what you know about you know, I don't know how

0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.479
<v Speaker 2>it works in Australia. But you know, every state has

0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:57.439
<v Speaker 2>different gun laws here. So it's the whole supplied demand graph, right,

0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.520
<v Speaker 2>So in states like New York where the normal person

0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.159
<v Speaker 2>can't get a gun and carry it, okay, and in

0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:08.840
<v Speaker 2>places down south here Georgia, Carolinas, anyone can buy a

0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:12.480
<v Speaker 2>gun and carry it. So that that gun down here

0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:16.320
<v Speaker 2>that you can buy for three hundred bucks, is you

0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:20.040
<v Speaker 2>can sell in New York for two thousand bucks on

0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:24.640
<v Speaker 2>the streets. So gun trafficking is a real thing, very

0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.800
<v Speaker 2>very common. So I told them, listen, once I get

0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.560
<v Speaker 2>like two three hundred guns, I just I fill that

0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.480
<v Speaker 2>truck with furniture and I'll move a family from Atlanta

0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:35.639
<v Speaker 2>to New York and I just put all the guns,

0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:38.920
<v Speaker 2>hide them into furniture. Even if I get pulled over,

0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:41.880
<v Speaker 2>I say, man, I'm just moving furniture. You know, it's

0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.240
<v Speaker 2>not my stuff. And these guys love that. They were

0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:46.920
<v Speaker 2>like right on. So that was my excuse to keep

0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:52.840
<v Speaker 2>buying guns. So next thing I knew, man, we are

0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.200
<v Speaker 2>asking for more money. We don't even have enough buy

0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.800
<v Speaker 2>money we got. We're buying tens of thousands of X

0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:05.080
<v Speaker 2>SEE pills, and we're buying machine guns, sought off shotguns,

0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:12.200
<v Speaker 2>stolen guns, every you name it, we're buying it, grenades,

0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:17.600
<v Speaker 2>everything they're bringing in, you know, every drug known to mankind.

0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:23.320
<v Speaker 2>And this thing is just spider webbing and without you know,

0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:25.440
<v Speaker 2>once the word got out in the street, we didn't

0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.920
<v Speaker 2>even have to do that much. They were just coming

0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:31.719
<v Speaker 2>to us, and we're having to be strategic with spending

0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.679
<v Speaker 2>money because we only want to spend on you know,

0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:37.879
<v Speaker 2>get the most bang for the buck, we're actually turning

0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:44.359
<v Speaker 2>we're turning people away. And so the success, you know,

0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:50.320
<v Speaker 2>twelve months later, it was a twelve month operation. We

0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.120
<v Speaker 2>had purchased four hundred and thirty crime guns.

0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:53.840
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.440
<v Speaker 2>And this is a small city. This is Augusta, Georgia,

0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:00.359
<v Speaker 2>not a huge city. And you know drug I mean,

0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.719
<v Speaker 2>I can't even tell you how much drugs. But we

0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.240
<v Speaker 2>had one hundred defendants, one hundred federal defense now about

0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.080
<v Speaker 2>I think we had sixty five federal defendants in about

0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:13.080
<v Speaker 2>thirty five state defense. And you know, these are these

0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:17.040
<v Speaker 2>are numbers that AHTF wasn't used to seeing. It was

0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:18.240
<v Speaker 2>a real big it was a big deal.

0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.359
<v Speaker 1>As they're coming in, you're recording all the transactions and

0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:23.400
<v Speaker 1>keeping the records.

0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.159
<v Speaker 3>It's and it's basically you've you've got them jammed up

0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:26.600
<v Speaker 3>big time.

0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:27.000
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:29.680
<v Speaker 1>If if that they've come in there, they've they've come

0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:32.840
<v Speaker 1>into your trap and it's going to be very hard

0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:35.600
<v Speaker 1>for them to uh wiggle their way out of that

0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:37.120
<v Speaker 1>in the court situation.

0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say it was entrapment

0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.159
<v Speaker 2>or anything else when you're on camera driving up in

0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.760
<v Speaker 2>your car, walking through the door, pulling a gun out

0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:46.920
<v Speaker 2>of your waist and selling it.

0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:47.160
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:49.320
<v Speaker 2>It's a tough one to defend. That's why none of

0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.840
<v Speaker 2>those cases ever want to trial. The hardest part in

0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:58.439
<v Speaker 2>that type operation, we found out was identifying everybody right, okay.

0:21:57.640 --> 0:21:57.760
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:00.640
<v Speaker 2>They would never drive up in a car that registered

0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.879
<v Speaker 2>to them. It'd be registered to some girl and or

0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:06.800
<v Speaker 2>be a rental and they would be rented by somebody else,

0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:10.240
<v Speaker 2>some girl or whatever it was. They'd never give you

0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:12.719
<v Speaker 2>a real name, you know, a lot of times they

0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:15.440
<v Speaker 2>were just using burner phone. So we'd get real creative

0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:18.800
<v Speaker 2>to identify these guys. Sometimes we would have to have

0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:22.280
<v Speaker 2>cover teams follow them and you know, try and put

0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.439
<v Speaker 2>them to bed whatever it was, you know, we did.

0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:29.280
<v Speaker 2>We did other creative things like giveaways. We found that

0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:31.840
<v Speaker 2>these guys never wanted to give out their real name

0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:35.119
<v Speaker 2>or their real number. But if you offered them something free,

0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:39.600
<v Speaker 2>the possibility of a free television or or you know,

0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:44.000
<v Speaker 2>a three hundred dollars cash prize or something, they would

0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.639
<v Speaker 2>fill out the little form and they would put a

0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.000
<v Speaker 2>real phone number or real name or some way to

0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:50.600
<v Speaker 2>get a hold of them in case they won. And

0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:52.560
<v Speaker 2>I would tell these guys, listen, just fold it at

0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:54.040
<v Speaker 2>the corner and I'll make sure I pick you one

0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:56.639
<v Speaker 2>because I'm the one who picks the winning So so

0:22:56.800 --> 0:22:58.360
<v Speaker 2>we did that a lot, and we would actually give

0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:01.239
<v Speaker 2>TVs away whatever it was to keep it real. But

0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:03.800
<v Speaker 2>that's and even if they didn't put anything real down,

0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:08.160
<v Speaker 2>we would even have the prints lifted from the little

0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:10.840
<v Speaker 2>slip they filled out when they dropped it in. So

0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:12.040
<v Speaker 2>we got creative.

0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:15.480
<v Speaker 1>I love the creative side of it, like law enforcement,

0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:18.000
<v Speaker 1>and I think that's a part of law enforcement people

0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:22.200
<v Speaker 1>see as black and white, but the creative thinking like that.

0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:25.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm getting excited just thinking of all the opportunities where

0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:27.000
<v Speaker 1>you've got people coming in like that and the things

0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:28.919
<v Speaker 1>that you could do. One of the things that you

0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:31.240
<v Speaker 1>talk about in the book, and you use a number

0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:33.080
<v Speaker 1>of examples, but just give a sense of it when

0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:37.680
<v Speaker 1>you talk street theater, when you've got to get these

0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:41.160
<v Speaker 1>blokes to the people that you're trying to bring in,

0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:43.960
<v Speaker 1>get them to accept you are the genuine bad guys.

0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Street theater is my favorite aspect of my career.

0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:50.920
<v Speaker 3>I reckon it would be a bit of fun.

0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:53.919
<v Speaker 2>The most fun I ever had my whole career was

0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:57.320
<v Speaker 2>doing street theater. And you know, I again, I take

0:23:57.359 --> 0:24:00.080
<v Speaker 2>no cared. I didn't invent it was gays before for

0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:03.119
<v Speaker 2>me who were doing it, But basically the principal was

0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:09.040
<v Speaker 2>and we did it for several reasons, but the main

0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:12.600
<v Speaker 2>reasons we were doing it the street theater in these

0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:18.080
<v Speaker 2>storefronts was to show the bad guys, you know, in

0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:23.680
<v Speaker 2>this community we were in that we were moving the product, right,

0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:27.960
<v Speaker 2>because who just keeps buying drugs and keeps buying guns

0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:32.320
<v Speaker 2>like NonStop cops. Okay, you wanted to show them that,

0:24:32.720 --> 0:24:35.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, we had on our own hustle and ongoing operation.

0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:37.680
<v Speaker 2>You know, we were buying this stuff and we were

0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:40.080
<v Speaker 2>selling you know, whatever happened to be, the guns and

0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:44.920
<v Speaker 2>the drugs, stolen cars, whatever. So we would do what

0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:51.160
<v Speaker 2>we called street theater operations where we would hire Usually

0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:53.200
<v Speaker 2>we would hire one of the local gangs we were

0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:58.119
<v Speaker 2>dealing with as security for the deal, and then we

0:24:58.160 --> 0:25:01.919
<v Speaker 2>would call in other undercover agents from different cities who

0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:05.160
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be known there to come in and we would

0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:09.199
<v Speaker 2>do a deal, a fake deal between ourselves. So I

0:25:09.240 --> 0:25:14.760
<v Speaker 2>would for instance, I in this one instance where we

0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:17.720
<v Speaker 2>did a store for an operation that was a military

0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:22.320
<v Speaker 2>surplus store with a shooting a three lane three lane

0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:25.320
<v Speaker 2>shooting range attached to it. It's one of my favorite ones.

0:25:25.880 --> 0:25:27.560
<v Speaker 2>So we had these gangsters coming in and they could

0:25:27.560 --> 0:25:30.760
<v Speaker 2>blast their guns, convicted felons with our guns, shooting in

0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:35.359
<v Speaker 2>our in our shooting. So this local, a local street

0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:38.919
<v Speaker 2>gang we were dealing with. I told these guys we

0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:41.080
<v Speaker 2>had been buying a bunch of guns off these guys,

0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:45.800
<v Speaker 2>and I said, listen, I have to deal with this

0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:51.280
<v Speaker 2>crew out of Miami. I don't know them, and they're

0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:55.520
<v Speaker 2>going to come in here and we're selling them a

0:25:55.560 --> 0:26:00.199
<v Speaker 2>bunch of machine guns. I need I need security. Can

0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:02.720
<v Speaker 2>you you know? Can you can? I hire you for

0:26:02.760 --> 0:26:06.920
<v Speaker 2>to day? And they were like, that's what we do, right,

0:26:07.640 --> 0:26:09.320
<v Speaker 2>And I never told I would never tell any of

0:26:09.359 --> 0:26:11.119
<v Speaker 2>them to bring your gun. I would just hire that.

0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:12.960
<v Speaker 2>I'd say this, I'll give you a couple hundred bucks,

0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:15.919
<v Speaker 2>whatever it was. And but I would always have to

0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:21.919
<v Speaker 2>give them very specific instructions. Don't do anything unless I

0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 2>say to do something. Right, you don't have to do anything,

0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:27.360
<v Speaker 2>just stand there, because I didn't want any of these

0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:30.439
<v Speaker 2>guys getting over sell this and pulling guns. And you

0:26:30.480 --> 0:26:33.840
<v Speaker 2>know what I mean, I can say that that, yeah,

0:26:34.160 --> 0:26:38.840
<v Speaker 2>this is all fake. So so these guys would show up.

0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:40.960
<v Speaker 2>We would never set the deal too early because it

0:26:40.960 --> 0:26:42.720
<v Speaker 2>was always hard to get them to show up on time.

0:26:43.600 --> 0:26:45.359
<v Speaker 2>They would show up and we would have all this

0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:48.480
<v Speaker 2>scripted and worked out before with the undercovers. So in

0:26:48.560 --> 0:26:51.840
<v Speaker 2>this particular deal, we had this this incredible guy named

0:26:51.880 --> 0:26:55.720
<v Speaker 2>Richie zaias a Cuban Cuban guy out of South Florida

0:26:57.040 --> 0:26:59.880
<v Speaker 2>showed up with this big bear, this huge guy who

0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:04.320
<v Speaker 2>look like a pirate on steroids, hair and all that.

0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:08.000
<v Speaker 2>That was his bodyguard. And we were selling them ten

0:27:08.119 --> 0:27:11.399
<v Speaker 2>machine guns. And uh, you know, they show up and

0:27:11.440 --> 0:27:12.879
<v Speaker 2>we would do that. I would like be on the

0:27:12.880 --> 0:27:15.680
<v Speaker 2>phone and you know, the guys. I would set these

0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:19.040
<v Speaker 2>guys up around around the business. I'd have two guys

0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:21.879
<v Speaker 2>at the door, one guy post you know, next to

0:27:21.960 --> 0:27:24.840
<v Speaker 2>me at the counter, you know, maybe one guy at

0:27:24.880 --> 0:27:27.320
<v Speaker 2>the other side of the business. And I would tell

0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:29.720
<v Speaker 2>them again, listen, don't do shit unless I say to

0:27:29.800 --> 0:27:35.000
<v Speaker 2>do shit please, all easy money. So so so the

0:27:35.480 --> 0:27:38.080
<v Speaker 2>the fake bad guys would show up in like a

0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:40.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, a panel van and get out and you

0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:45.879
<v Speaker 2>know they always you know, be looking badass, you know, incredible,

0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:49.000
<v Speaker 2>And I just specifically remember this one. So much because

0:27:49.080 --> 0:27:53.439
<v Speaker 2>because Richie was wearing these these fake Nike shoes that

0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:57.359
<v Speaker 2>had Tony Montana on them, you know, the from the

0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:02.680
<v Speaker 2>movie Scarface, and uh, you know, he just heated crazy hair.

0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:06.760
<v Speaker 2>It's just a good look. And so they walk in

0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:09.359
<v Speaker 2>to the business and uh, you know, we kind of

0:28:09.359 --> 0:28:14.080
<v Speaker 2>interact in a non friendly way, and uh, I break

0:28:14.080 --> 0:28:16.639
<v Speaker 2>out one of the machine guns, and he calls a

0:28:16.640 --> 0:28:20.640
<v Speaker 2>big guy over and he says, hey man, I told him.

0:28:20.640 --> 0:28:22.040
<v Speaker 2>I said, listen, we got a place you can shoot

0:28:22.080 --> 0:28:26.560
<v Speaker 2>it right there. So he tells, you know, his partner there,

0:28:26.640 --> 0:28:28.480
<v Speaker 2>hey man, you know, take that gun in there and

0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:30.960
<v Speaker 2>make sure it's a machine gun. So I send one

0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:33.159
<v Speaker 2>of you know, one of the gang members to go

0:28:33.200 --> 0:28:36.359
<v Speaker 2>in there too, and and you know, the ATF agent

0:28:36.400 --> 0:28:38.880
<v Speaker 2>undercover goes in there and blast the machine gun off,

0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:42.960
<v Speaker 2>and you know art, you know, the gang members like

0:28:42.960 --> 0:28:48.080
<v Speaker 2>holy shit, right, and uh yes, oh yeah. So we

0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:51.120
<v Speaker 2>come back and uh, you know, the big guy goes

0:28:51.160 --> 0:28:53.600
<v Speaker 2>out and gets a gets a suitcase full of money,

0:28:53.600 --> 0:28:55.400
<v Speaker 2>brings it in. We do the deal, They take the

0:28:55.440 --> 0:28:59.360
<v Speaker 2>machine guns and leave. And I always when they would

0:28:59.360 --> 0:29:01.280
<v Speaker 2>give me the suit some money, I would always turn

0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:02.880
<v Speaker 2>to one of my partners and say, hey, man, go

0:29:02.920 --> 0:29:04.880
<v Speaker 2>take this to the spot, and he would leave with

0:29:04.960 --> 0:29:07.560
<v Speaker 2>the money because I never wanted that crew to know

0:29:07.640 --> 0:29:09.840
<v Speaker 2>I had a suitcase of money there because they would

0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:12.840
<v Speaker 2>rob me. You know, there's no on thieves. Even though

0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:15.520
<v Speaker 2>I hired them, you know, they'll still put a gun

0:29:15.520 --> 0:29:16.400
<v Speaker 2>on my face and rob me.

0:29:17.440 --> 0:29:21.719
<v Speaker 1>That's where you're vulnerable throughout, like all the stages of

0:29:21.760 --> 0:29:25.160
<v Speaker 1>your every time you're dealing with the bad guys at

0:29:25.160 --> 0:29:28.200
<v Speaker 1>you're targeting, you're a potential victim as well. So you've

0:29:28.200 --> 0:29:31.440
<v Speaker 1>gotta have that, yeah, like whether are they going to

0:29:31.480 --> 0:29:33.200
<v Speaker 1>do a drug grip on you or if you've got

0:29:33.200 --> 0:29:35.040
<v Speaker 1>all these guns stored here on that way, we can

0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:35.600
<v Speaker 1>get that.

0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:38.400
<v Speaker 2>And always that's why we always let these dudes know.

0:29:38.520 --> 0:29:40.480
<v Speaker 2>Would we would show our guns all the time and

0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:42.360
<v Speaker 2>let them know that we had guns because we knew

0:29:42.400 --> 0:29:45.920
<v Speaker 2>they did because there is no honor among thieves. And

0:29:45.960 --> 0:29:48.680
<v Speaker 2>no matter how friendly they were with you. You know,

0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:51.920
<v Speaker 2>we had guys coming into the storefronts that we would

0:29:51.960 --> 0:29:54.320
<v Speaker 2>do a deal with them a drug. They would come

0:29:54.360 --> 0:29:57.720
<v Speaker 2>back that night and burglarize our place. I mean we'd

0:29:57.720 --> 0:29:59.880
<v Speaker 2>recognize and we could see him on the security cameras.

0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:02.120
<v Speaker 2>We just dealt with them and they break in at

0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:05.440
<v Speaker 2>night and steal all our shit, so you know, and

0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:13.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, as an undercover, your fear is not it's not, oh,

0:30:13.160 --> 0:30:15.920
<v Speaker 2>they're gonna they're going to find out that I'm a cop.

0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:19.320
<v Speaker 2>That's not the figure because if they find out you're

0:30:19.320 --> 0:30:22.440
<v Speaker 2>a fed any of these organizations, they're just going to

0:30:22.480 --> 0:30:25.360
<v Speaker 2>put as much distance between themselves and you as they can.

0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:27.320
<v Speaker 2>They don't want to draw any heat on themselves at

0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:31.960
<v Speaker 2>the organization. That's not the fear. The fear is that

0:30:32.000 --> 0:30:33.920
<v Speaker 2>next deal is going to be a rip and they're

0:30:33.920 --> 0:30:36.240
<v Speaker 2>going to kill you. They know you're showing up to buy,

0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:39.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, a ki low and you're showing up with

0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:42.440
<v Speaker 2>fifteen thousand dollars. So this time, even though they've dealt

0:30:42.440 --> 0:30:44.560
<v Speaker 2>with you four times already, on the fifth time, they're

0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:48.080
<v Speaker 2>gonna shoot you and take your money. That's the fear.

0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:50.400
<v Speaker 1>That that would be the real real risk with it

0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:53.440
<v Speaker 1>when you do take them down on those sting operations.

0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:56.480
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, that was your career, A large portion of

0:30:56.600 --> 0:30:58.680
<v Speaker 1>your your career was built on that, and you became

0:30:58.720 --> 0:31:03.080
<v Speaker 1>an expert and was going across the country advising other people.

0:31:03.800 --> 0:31:06.880
<v Speaker 1>When you do take them down, there was one and

0:31:07.160 --> 0:31:09.080
<v Speaker 1>I talk about this, and this is more talking on

0:31:09.080 --> 0:31:13.640
<v Speaker 1>the emotional level from being an undercover agent when you

0:31:13.680 --> 0:31:16.160
<v Speaker 1>do take them down a lot of people. I would

0:31:16.160 --> 0:31:19.240
<v Speaker 1>imagine you've built strong relationships with the long you're in there,

0:31:19.320 --> 0:31:23.880
<v Speaker 1>and you seem to be a guy that understands human nature,

0:31:23.920 --> 0:31:25.920
<v Speaker 1>and I dare say because of the person you are,

0:31:26.000 --> 0:31:28.920
<v Speaker 1>but the nature of the work. There was one particular

0:31:28.960 --> 0:31:32.640
<v Speaker 1>one that you mentioned in the book where you had

0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:35.080
<v Speaker 1>to go in and front the bloke, and a bloke

0:31:35.120 --> 0:31:37.400
<v Speaker 1>that in fact invited you out I think for his

0:31:37.480 --> 0:31:42.520
<v Speaker 1>fortieth birthday to celebrate because he trusted you, of all

0:31:42.560 --> 0:31:45.640
<v Speaker 1>people to trust, and couldn't trust his trust his friends,

0:31:46.000 --> 0:31:48.840
<v Speaker 1>and you were there when he got taken down and

0:31:48.880 --> 0:31:50.400
<v Speaker 1>had to front him. Do you want to tell people

0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:51.840
<v Speaker 1>about what happened there?

0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:54.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was a tough one. It was in Chicago.

0:31:55.280 --> 0:31:57.600
<v Speaker 2>He was a member of the Outlaws motorcycle gang and

0:31:57.640 --> 0:32:02.080
<v Speaker 2>he was also a member of UH, an Italian mafia

0:32:02.120 --> 0:32:06.160
<v Speaker 2>family Lisaro in Chicago. They called the outfit, that's what

0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:10.280
<v Speaker 2>they call the mafia, the Italian mafia. So they figured

0:32:10.480 --> 0:32:12.920
<v Speaker 2>they had figured this was a joint case of that

0:32:13.120 --> 0:32:17.239
<v Speaker 2>atf and the FBI, that UH the the mafia was

0:32:17.760 --> 0:32:20.960
<v Speaker 2>hiring the bikers to do some of their dirty work,

0:32:21.080 --> 0:32:24.800
<v Speaker 2>and this guy had done a bombing, a big bombing.

0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:28.640
<v Speaker 2>It all revolved around these video poker machines that the

0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:32.960
<v Speaker 2>mafia was making all the bar owners and restaurant owners

0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:36.000
<v Speaker 2>put in their businesses, and if you didn't want to

0:32:36.000 --> 0:32:39.880
<v Speaker 2>play ball and put their machines in there, they'd blow

0:32:39.920 --> 0:32:44.880
<v Speaker 2>your place up. So so this guy was one of

0:32:44.920 --> 0:32:47.840
<v Speaker 2>those guys who and I'm sure you've run across these

0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:51.840
<v Speaker 2>kind of guys in your career. No one could no

0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:55.280
<v Speaker 2>one could get this guy. He was really smart. He

0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:58.640
<v Speaker 2>was not a convicted felon, uh and he there was

0:32:58.720 --> 0:33:01.360
<v Speaker 2>no crime he wasn't into. He was just really smart

0:33:01.400 --> 0:33:07.560
<v Speaker 2>about it. And the FBI had sent in three informants

0:33:07.600 --> 0:33:13.480
<v Speaker 2>to get him, two of them were dirty cops, childhood friends,

0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:15.480
<v Speaker 2>and he sniffed them all out. He was just a

0:33:15.480 --> 0:33:21.840
<v Speaker 2>sharp guy. So I went in cold on this. It

0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:25.720
<v Speaker 2>was just a really strange case. I went in as

0:33:26.000 --> 0:33:27.920
<v Speaker 2>my covers. I was a kind of a down and

0:33:27.960 --> 0:33:32.040
<v Speaker 2>out MMA fighter up and I was just moved to Chicago.

0:33:32.600 --> 0:33:37.800
<v Speaker 2>And it took months and months and months to get

0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:41.560
<v Speaker 2>in with this guy and get his trust when I

0:33:41.600 --> 0:33:45.760
<v Speaker 2>finally did, the case kind of picked up. I was

0:33:45.800 --> 0:33:50.120
<v Speaker 2>buying stolen merchandise from him. One of his many crimes.

0:33:50.200 --> 0:33:56.200
<v Speaker 2>He was fencing stolen electronics, flat screen TVs, surround sound systems.

0:33:56.280 --> 0:33:58.920
<v Speaker 2>And I don't mean just I mean they were knocking

0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:03.640
<v Speaker 2>off eighteen wheks, like in these deals where the driver

0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:06.000
<v Speaker 2>would get out and walk away and they would get

0:34:06.000 --> 0:34:11.560
<v Speaker 2>in and mafia type deals. So so I, you know,

0:34:11.600 --> 0:34:13.960
<v Speaker 2>I started buying that from him, and then the case

0:34:14.520 --> 0:34:19.960
<v Speaker 2>went along very well. Like like you mentioned, he called

0:34:20.000 --> 0:34:22.560
<v Speaker 2>me out one night, had me out to a strip

0:34:22.600 --> 0:34:25.440
<v Speaker 2>joint and he sits down and he looks me in

0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:27.600
<v Speaker 2>the eye and he tells me listen. He was, I

0:34:27.920 --> 0:34:30.719
<v Speaker 2>can't trust the people I grew up with, you know,

0:34:30.800 --> 0:34:34.279
<v Speaker 2>I can't trust the people in my neighborhood that I

0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:37.920
<v Speaker 2>that I grew up with. He said, so, I really

0:34:37.960 --> 0:34:42.640
<v Speaker 2>appreciate your friendship. And we did a toast and he goes,

0:34:42.680 --> 0:34:46.240
<v Speaker 2>it's my fortieth birthday. I didn't even know that. And

0:34:46.000 --> 0:34:48.319
<v Speaker 2>and and again I'm thinking to myself, because you know,

0:34:48.360 --> 0:34:50.560
<v Speaker 2>I met his wife, I met his kid, and he

0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:53.480
<v Speaker 2>was a good father. He had like a ten year

0:34:53.560 --> 0:34:56.640
<v Speaker 2>old kid, And I'm thinking, man, you know that's u.

0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:02.239
<v Speaker 2>She hadn't trusted me like that kind of you know.

0:35:02.800 --> 0:35:07.719
<v Speaker 2>And anyway, their idea, they really wanted to flip this

0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:09.879
<v Speaker 2>guy to flip on the mafia, and they took him down.

0:35:10.360 --> 0:35:12.520
<v Speaker 2>I knew from spending a year with this guy there

0:35:12.600 --> 0:35:15.960
<v Speaker 2>was no way he was going to flip. I just

0:35:16.040 --> 0:35:19.440
<v Speaker 2>knew I'd gotten to know him. But you know, they

0:35:19.719 --> 0:35:23.760
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to hear that, so they had me lure

0:35:23.840 --> 0:35:28.680
<v Speaker 2>him to the Hilton Hotel at the O'Hare Airport in Chicago.

0:35:29.320 --> 0:35:31.120
<v Speaker 2>He thought he was going to meet Hoyst Gracie, this

0:35:31.239 --> 0:35:38.359
<v Speaker 2>famous MMA fighter, and he shows up. I walk him,

0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:41.040
<v Speaker 2>We go up the elevator and we walk him into

0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:44.719
<v Speaker 2>his room, and instead of Hoyst Gracie, they've lined up

0:35:44.760 --> 0:35:49.160
<v Speaker 2>the whole room with boxes of evidence. Okay, like they're

0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:51.680
<v Speaker 2>making a big show to get him to flip. There's

0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:55.440
<v Speaker 2>the ATF and the FBI agents, and so you know,

0:35:55.560 --> 0:35:59.840
<v Speaker 2>I walk them in. They get him and sit him down,

0:36:00.160 --> 0:36:03.280
<v Speaker 2>and you know, he refuses to believe that I'm a cop.

0:36:04.719 --> 0:36:08.439
<v Speaker 2>He's not talking, he's not giving him anything. So they're like, hey,

0:36:09.080 --> 0:36:10.960
<v Speaker 2>you need to go in there and show him your

0:36:10.960 --> 0:36:15.240
<v Speaker 2>badge and get him to talk. And that's the last

0:36:15.239 --> 0:36:17.560
<v Speaker 2>thing I wanted to do. You know, in my mind,

0:36:17.560 --> 0:36:21.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking, listen, I did my job and it sucked,

0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:24.120
<v Speaker 2>but I did it. And now I don't mainly do

0:36:24.239 --> 0:36:28.279
<v Speaker 2>this right. But you know that's the job, right. So

0:36:28.360 --> 0:36:30.600
<v Speaker 2>I walk in there and I show him my badge

0:36:30.640 --> 0:36:33.400
<v Speaker 2>and I tell him, listen, this this is my assignment.

0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:36.400
<v Speaker 2>It's my you know, this is my job what I do.

0:36:36.480 --> 0:36:39.040
<v Speaker 2>And I want you to know that this wasn't personal.

0:36:39.120 --> 0:36:40.960
<v Speaker 2>And he looked at me and he goes, it wasn't personal.

0:36:42.120 --> 0:36:44.759
<v Speaker 2>Everything you've told me up to right now has been

0:36:44.800 --> 0:36:48.399
<v Speaker 2>a lie. You've met my family, my wife, my kid,

0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:54.720
<v Speaker 2>my friends, and you haven't told me anything that's true

0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:58.640
<v Speaker 2>this entire time. You're going to tell me that that's

0:36:58.680 --> 0:37:03.400
<v Speaker 2>not personal. And you know, for once once in my life,

0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:09.759
<v Speaker 2>I had no witty response. I had no retort. I

0:37:09.880 --> 0:37:11.759
<v Speaker 2>just kind of looked at him, shrugged my shoulders, and

0:37:11.800 --> 0:37:15.120
<v Speaker 2>walked away. I never saw him again too. He was

0:37:15.160 --> 0:37:17.200
<v Speaker 2>sitting in the defendant's chair at the trial.

0:37:17.920 --> 0:37:20.200
<v Speaker 1>I feel it it would be hard and you know,

0:37:20.440 --> 0:37:23.960
<v Speaker 1>as you say, you're doing your job. But I think

0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:26.840
<v Speaker 1>he sort of nailed it when he said it's not personal.

0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:30.520
<v Speaker 1>Of course it's personal to him anyway, So yeah, that's a.

0:37:30.640 --> 0:37:31.440
<v Speaker 3>That's a hard hit.

0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:35.839
<v Speaker 1>Another aspect that comes out, which I've always found fascinating

0:37:35.920 --> 0:37:39.600
<v Speaker 1>in police work is dealing with informants, And I just

0:37:39.600 --> 0:37:43.040
<v Speaker 1>want to mention one of your informants, Ray, at one

0:37:43.040 --> 0:37:45.560
<v Speaker 1>of the sting operations. He's referred to in the book

0:37:45.600 --> 0:37:51.040
<v Speaker 1>as Ray, and I just thought, I've a lot of

0:37:51.120 --> 0:37:54.719
<v Speaker 1>work I did in my policing career. I had informants,

0:37:54.760 --> 0:37:58.400
<v Speaker 1>became close to them and respect them for what they

0:37:58.440 --> 0:38:01.759
<v Speaker 1>were doing. But I've also so and I've had informants

0:38:01.800 --> 0:38:04.359
<v Speaker 1>like Ray that feel part of the term and they

0:38:04.360 --> 0:38:06.680
<v Speaker 1>in fact become part of the team and get excited

0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:10.080
<v Speaker 1>about being involved in the operation. I just had put

0:38:10.120 --> 0:38:11.840
<v Speaker 1>a smile on my face. How he wanted to be

0:38:11.880 --> 0:38:15.080
<v Speaker 1>involved in all the takedowns and was telling the technical

0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:16.440
<v Speaker 1>blokes what they should be doing.

0:38:16.840 --> 0:38:21.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he was definitely. You know, his father was a

0:38:21.400 --> 0:38:26.839
<v Speaker 2>big wig with the Indian Police IPS and Ray had

0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:30.200
<v Speaker 2>taken the test three times, you know, to follow on

0:38:30.280 --> 0:38:33.200
<v Speaker 2>his father's footsteps, but he failed all three times. So

0:38:33.920 --> 0:38:38.880
<v Speaker 2>he came to America and bought a convenience store gas station,

0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:45.480
<v Speaker 2>became very successful at that and one day he unknowingly

0:38:45.560 --> 0:38:49.560
<v Speaker 2>walked into an ATF storefront operation and bought untaxed cigarettes

0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:55.200
<v Speaker 2>and ended up getting arrested. So he was here illegally.

0:38:55.280 --> 0:38:58.480
<v Speaker 2>He had overstayed on his visa, and even though the

0:38:58.680 --> 0:39:01.000
<v Speaker 2>untaxed cigarettes really isn't much of a charge, he was

0:39:01.040 --> 0:39:05.200
<v Speaker 2>going to be deported, and somehow his lawyer talked me

0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:09.080
<v Speaker 2>into keeping him here and making him an informant. He

0:39:09.160 --> 0:39:13.880
<v Speaker 2>is the most unlikely informant. I mean, not a physically

0:39:13.880 --> 0:39:18.240
<v Speaker 2>imposing guy. He's just a little Indian dude who didn't

0:39:18.239 --> 0:39:23.319
<v Speaker 2>really speak English very well and had never held a gun,

0:39:23.560 --> 0:39:28.239
<v Speaker 2>never done it be drugs. And this guy became, I

0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:31.840
<v Speaker 2>would say, and I am comfortable saying this, the greatest

0:39:31.880 --> 0:39:36.440
<v Speaker 2>informant the United States government has ever had. Just a

0:39:36.480 --> 0:39:41.560
<v Speaker 2>total natural man. He got me into. He got me

0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:52.000
<v Speaker 2>into Mexican cartels, American street gangs, stolen car rings, just

0:39:52.600 --> 0:39:57.319
<v Speaker 2>the Italian mafia. He was unbelievable because he was so unassuming,

0:39:57.800 --> 0:40:02.480
<v Speaker 2>and he he loved doing it. Uh, you know, we

0:40:02.520 --> 0:40:04.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't pay him. He only did it just to stay

0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:08.120
<v Speaker 2>here was his reason. We never paid him. But he

0:40:08.160 --> 0:40:10.040
<v Speaker 2>wanted he always wanted to go to the extra mile.

0:40:10.080 --> 0:40:11.920
<v Speaker 2>He wanted to be part of the takedown. To you,

0:40:12.560 --> 0:40:16.239
<v Speaker 2>he wanted to tackle these guys himself, to the point

0:40:16.280 --> 0:40:19.120
<v Speaker 2>where he could be very annoying to those, you know,

0:40:19.320 --> 0:40:23.240
<v Speaker 2>to cops who didn't know him, and it was almost

0:40:23.280 --> 0:40:27.240
<v Speaker 2>in a comical way, but he really he took pride

0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:32.480
<v Speaker 2>in his job, his role, and in the results that

0:40:32.560 --> 0:40:37.319
<v Speaker 2>we had. And and I'll tell you man it you

0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:40.200
<v Speaker 2>know I did. I developed a relationship with this guy. Uh.

0:40:40.760 --> 0:40:42.239
<v Speaker 2>He was always kind of getting in a little bit

0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:46.120
<v Speaker 2>of trouble, but it was always bullshit tax stuff. But

0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:48.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, when it for the real work, for the

0:40:49.000 --> 0:40:51.920
<v Speaker 2>lord's work, getting you know, crime guns off the street

0:40:52.000 --> 0:40:55.200
<v Speaker 2>and getting you know, large amounts of dangerous drugs, fentannel

0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:58.319
<v Speaker 2>off the street. Man, he was unstoppable and just a

0:40:58.360 --> 0:41:01.120
<v Speaker 2>pleasure to work with. And my second book that I'll

0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:05.160
<v Speaker 2>be coming out with soon is called Raycon The Betrayal

0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:09.400
<v Speaker 2>of an Informant, because he was absolutely he was treated

0:41:09.520 --> 0:41:11.680
<v Speaker 2>like ship by the United States.

0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:17.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I see your anger. And I'll be interested

0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:21.919
<v Speaker 1>in seeing that book because some of them, like the informants,

0:41:22.440 --> 0:41:24.799
<v Speaker 1>really do a good job and they put themselves out

0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:27.319
<v Speaker 1>there and they're putting their lives at risk. Depending on

0:41:27.400 --> 0:41:31.000
<v Speaker 1>the circumstances and all that, but yeah, I can understand it.

0:41:31.239 --> 0:41:34.960
<v Speaker 1>I've also heard you say in different interviews that you've

0:41:35.000 --> 0:41:38.520
<v Speaker 1>done that some of the people that you've worked against,

0:41:38.680 --> 0:41:42.520
<v Speaker 1>as in the crooks and some of the informants, really

0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:44.680
<v Speaker 1>they had your back, and that's a that's a thing

0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:48.080
<v Speaker 1>you know that they've got your back. And I when

0:41:48.080 --> 0:41:50.400
<v Speaker 1>I got into trouble at the end of my police career,

0:41:50.760 --> 0:41:55.319
<v Speaker 1>I had people coming out that i'd locked up supporting me,

0:41:55.600 --> 0:41:58.240
<v Speaker 1>and I had informants coming out that were rock solid

0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:02.760
<v Speaker 1>I had. I had one. He's sadly, I'm not smiling

0:42:02.800 --> 0:42:04.879
<v Speaker 1>when I'm saying this because I miss him. You as

0:42:04.920 --> 0:42:07.719
<v Speaker 1>part of my life. He passed away. But when I

0:42:07.760 --> 0:42:10.760
<v Speaker 1>got in the in trouble and it hit the media

0:42:11.040 --> 0:42:14.880
<v Speaker 1>in the police, he said, hey, brother, don't worry about it.

0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:17.640
<v Speaker 1>If you get locked up, I'll get locked up and

0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:19.200
<v Speaker 1>I'll look after you in the yard.

0:42:19.600 --> 0:42:26.680
<v Speaker 3>Holy he and just you can't.

0:42:26.520 --> 0:42:29.880
<v Speaker 1>Beat that type of type of loyalty. And I smile

0:42:29.960 --> 0:42:32.200
<v Speaker 1>a smile about some of the aspects. You've always got

0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:35.160
<v Speaker 1>to keep your integrity with them and the dealings with them,

0:42:35.160 --> 0:42:37.279
<v Speaker 1>But it doesn't hurt to show a little bit bit

0:42:37.320 --> 0:42:42.080
<v Speaker 1>of humanity towards them, and quite often that's what's motivating him.

0:42:42.080 --> 0:42:44.120
<v Speaker 1>It's not all the ways about the money or getting

0:42:44.120 --> 0:42:46.399
<v Speaker 1>off charges. Sometimes they're trying to do the right thing,

0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:48.879
<v Speaker 1>or they've said that they would help you and they

0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:53.080
<v Speaker 1>stick to their words. So it's an interesting aspect of policing.

0:42:53.080 --> 0:42:56.160
<v Speaker 1>So I'd be very interested in your second book if

0:42:56.200 --> 0:42:59.120
<v Speaker 1>you're covering off on some of that, because some of

0:42:59.120 --> 0:43:01.040
<v Speaker 1>the situation as you find yourself in.

0:43:01.520 --> 0:43:04.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, Gary, it's just another thing that my first

0:43:04.600 --> 0:43:09.880
<v Speaker 2>partner taught me, the whole treating everyone with dignity and respect.

0:43:09.920 --> 0:43:12.040
<v Speaker 2>And he taught me from the beginning. He said, listen,

0:43:12.440 --> 0:43:15.839
<v Speaker 2>when it comes to informants, he said. Obviously every case

0:43:15.920 --> 0:43:18.960
<v Speaker 2>is different, but you know everyone's going to tell you

0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:21.040
<v Speaker 2>never fully trust and inform it. You can never fully

0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:24.120
<v Speaker 2>trust form it. He goes, Really, he said, you know,

0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:29.000
<v Speaker 2>this guy is taking me into this house with a

0:43:29.040 --> 0:43:31.319
<v Speaker 2>bunch of people who will definitely kill me if they can.

0:43:31.600 --> 0:43:34.200
<v Speaker 2>He goes, So, my whole life depends on this guy.

0:43:34.280 --> 0:43:37.399
<v Speaker 2>He's vouching for me. I'm not supposed to trust this guy.

0:43:37.960 --> 0:43:40.120
<v Speaker 2>And you know he taught and you treat them with

0:43:40.160 --> 0:43:43.439
<v Speaker 2>respecting dignity again, just like a crook unless they give

0:43:43.920 --> 0:43:45.279
<v Speaker 2>it not to you know.

0:43:45.880 --> 0:43:49.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we one hundred percent. I'm with you totally on that.

0:43:50.200 --> 0:43:54.160
<v Speaker 1>So your your career and you're not the first officer

0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:57.319
<v Speaker 1>of police officer or law enforcement officer all the last

0:43:57.400 --> 0:44:01.319
<v Speaker 1>that's appeared on this show. But they create didn't end

0:44:01.320 --> 0:44:04.680
<v Speaker 1>the why that I thought it within? What How did

0:44:04.680 --> 0:44:06.080
<v Speaker 1>your career career end?

0:44:06.680 --> 0:44:10.279
<v Speaker 2>My career ended with with very bad choices. Those were

0:44:10.280 --> 0:44:15.120
<v Speaker 2>made by me. I had lost my way. Uh. You know,

0:44:15.160 --> 0:44:20.520
<v Speaker 2>we started this conversation by talking about when you work

0:44:20.600 --> 0:44:25.399
<v Speaker 2>under cover, sometimes you become that person that you're portraying.

0:44:25.560 --> 0:44:27.680
<v Speaker 2>And and I had done that, you know, I was

0:44:27.800 --> 0:44:31.840
<v Speaker 2>I was believing my own bullshit, right. I was buying

0:44:31.840 --> 0:44:34.800
<v Speaker 2>into the ship that I was selling. I bought it myself,

0:44:35.719 --> 0:44:39.239
<v Speaker 2>and I was I was running around to the uh

0:44:40.520 --> 0:44:44.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, to the detriment of my family and my friends. Uh.

0:44:45.600 --> 0:44:50.840
<v Speaker 2>I was running around in this world, this crime world, uh,

0:44:50.920 --> 0:44:54.319
<v Speaker 2>and living my life starting to believe you know that

0:44:54.400 --> 0:44:57.839
<v Speaker 2>I that I was selling nunziato. Uh. And that led

0:44:57.880 --> 0:45:04.959
<v Speaker 2>to it led to excessive drinking, and it led to infidelity,

0:45:05.560 --> 0:45:09.799
<v Speaker 2>uh with my wife. And unfortunately it was with a

0:45:09.800 --> 0:45:14.399
<v Speaker 2>federal prosecutor who was working assigned to the cases these

0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:20.160
<v Speaker 2>operations that I was doing, and when that came out, Uh,

0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:23.120
<v Speaker 2>that was that was the end of both of our

0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:31.800
<v Speaker 2>careers and a really hard fall for me because because

0:45:31.840 --> 0:45:37.439
<v Speaker 2>of those circumstances, Uh, the government really turned on us

0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:43.279
<v Speaker 2>and went after us. And you know, these these inappropriate

0:45:43.320 --> 0:45:48.440
<v Speaker 2>relationships have been happening since the dawn of time between

0:45:48.480 --> 0:45:52.719
<v Speaker 2>male and female cops and prosecutors and all that. But

0:45:52.960 --> 0:45:56.759
<v Speaker 2>because of the nature of this, you know, they just

0:45:56.840 --> 0:46:01.719
<v Speaker 2>they went, they went after us, went overboard. However, it

0:46:01.880 --> 0:46:06.120
<v Speaker 2>sent me just spinning down into this world where I

0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:09.360
<v Speaker 2>couldn't get out of it. I didn't think there was

0:46:09.400 --> 0:46:11.319
<v Speaker 2>a way out. I was like, Wow, these people are

0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:13.640
<v Speaker 2>going after me. And these are the same people, you

0:46:13.680 --> 0:46:15.880
<v Speaker 2>know that I've been working with my whole career. I

0:46:15.920 --> 0:46:17.920
<v Speaker 2>know they can get anyone they set their sights on.

0:46:18.360 --> 0:46:22.319
<v Speaker 2>Why wouldn't they be able to get me? And I

0:46:22.360 --> 0:46:24.560
<v Speaker 2>mean I went, Gary, When I tell you, I went,

0:46:25.200 --> 0:46:27.440
<v Speaker 2>I probably lost fifty pounds in a matter of a

0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:33.520
<v Speaker 2>few weeks, a total mental breakdown. Everything just that I

0:46:33.520 --> 0:46:37.520
<v Speaker 2>had been holding inside it all came out and I

0:46:37.640 --> 0:46:40.360
<v Speaker 2>ended up and I don't say this for a dramatic effect.

0:46:40.360 --> 0:46:45.600
<v Speaker 2>But I ended up sitting in my bedroom paranoid, thinking

0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:49.160
<v Speaker 2>every car driving by was you know, a government surveillance.

0:46:49.760 --> 0:46:51.640
<v Speaker 2>And I ended up just trying to find a reason

0:46:51.680 --> 0:46:54.000
<v Speaker 2>not to end it because I didn't see any way out.

0:46:54.840 --> 0:47:00.279
<v Speaker 2>And you know, luckily, you know my faith, and you know,

0:47:00.440 --> 0:47:04.799
<v Speaker 2>just the just slight glimmer, you know, chance that my

0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:08.960
<v Speaker 2>family would you know, forgive me, and that carried me through.

0:47:09.280 --> 0:47:11.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, I was able to make it through, and

0:47:11.920 --> 0:47:16.400
<v Speaker 2>once I was cleared, I made the decision to retire.

0:47:16.440 --> 0:47:18.400
<v Speaker 2>I had been on for twenty six years at that point.

0:47:19.280 --> 0:47:22.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, So at that point, I I I had

0:47:22.080 --> 0:47:25.680
<v Speaker 2>a buddy who was a homicide detective and he told me,

0:47:26.480 --> 0:47:28.640
<v Speaker 2>he said, man, you got to write a book. He said,

0:47:28.719 --> 0:47:31.920
<v Speaker 2>as a as a mental exercise, he was, you got

0:47:31.960 --> 0:47:34.640
<v Speaker 2>to write a book. It was because I've never seen

0:47:34.680 --> 0:47:38.800
<v Speaker 2>anyone go through the crazy shit you've gone through, and

0:47:38.960 --> 0:47:41.719
<v Speaker 2>so it was it was a mental exercise. And I

0:47:41.760 --> 0:47:45.600
<v Speaker 2>wrote the book and the book just did really well.

0:47:46.600 --> 0:47:49.960
<v Speaker 2>And next thing, you know, my second career is in

0:47:50.000 --> 0:47:51.239
<v Speaker 2>the entertainment industry.

0:47:52.160 --> 0:47:57.839
<v Speaker 1>You know, I know the path you've walked. And when

0:47:57.840 --> 0:48:00.560
<v Speaker 1>you said, like the paranoia when you feel like the

0:48:00.600 --> 0:48:02.880
<v Speaker 1>people that were after you, the people that used to

0:48:03.320 --> 0:48:07.040
<v Speaker 1>used to work with. It's confronting, isn't it. And I

0:48:07.040 --> 0:48:09.680
<v Speaker 1>don't see you as a person crying poor or whatever,

0:48:09.719 --> 0:48:12.200
<v Speaker 1>and I'm not either. You know, that's the game, that's

0:48:12.200 --> 0:48:14.319
<v Speaker 1>the world that we've been involved in. We're set up

0:48:14.360 --> 0:48:18.960
<v Speaker 1>to understand how it plays out. But you've gone from

0:48:19.880 --> 0:48:23.799
<v Speaker 1>being in your mind the good guy doing everything, and

0:48:23.840 --> 0:48:25.879
<v Speaker 1>that was your passion and then that was taken away

0:48:25.880 --> 0:48:28.239
<v Speaker 1>from you. So I can understand how hard the path

0:48:28.280 --> 0:48:31.799
<v Speaker 1>it was to dig your way out of it. And

0:48:31.840 --> 0:48:34.520
<v Speaker 1>I think in your book you gave cutos to your

0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:37.359
<v Speaker 1>wife that had a hard conversation with you when you're

0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:41.120
<v Speaker 1>at your lowest point, and the fact that you managed

0:48:41.160 --> 0:48:46.080
<v Speaker 1>to fix things up there. But yeah, public humiliation is

0:48:46.120 --> 0:48:49.239
<v Speaker 1>never good. And when an organization you've given your heart

0:48:49.239 --> 0:48:52.359
<v Speaker 1>and soul to turns on you, I can understand the pain.

0:48:52.600 --> 0:48:55.040
<v Speaker 2>And brother, it was. I don't know how long your

0:48:55.080 --> 0:48:57.800
<v Speaker 2>situation lasts, but mine was two and a half years.

0:48:58.360 --> 0:49:00.839
<v Speaker 2>And I can tell you there don't put that much

0:49:00.880 --> 0:49:06.359
<v Speaker 2>effort into a murder investigation as they put into trying

0:49:06.400 --> 0:49:10.239
<v Speaker 2>to take down one of their own. Yeah, and so

0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:12.919
<v Speaker 2>it was. And you know, as guys like us who

0:49:12.960 --> 0:49:17.520
<v Speaker 2>are always used to being in control tope personalities to

0:49:17.600 --> 0:49:22.160
<v Speaker 2>have no control and the unknown is the worst thing

0:49:22.239 --> 0:49:25.279
<v Speaker 2>in the world. And that's what for the first time

0:49:25.280 --> 0:49:27.719
<v Speaker 2>in my life, I had no control over what was

0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:31.440
<v Speaker 2>going to happen to me and managrove me crazy.

0:49:32.480 --> 0:49:35.919
<v Speaker 1>I understand exactly where you're coming from with it, and yeah,

0:49:36.400 --> 0:49:40.040
<v Speaker 1>I share that pain. And you lose your tribe. I

0:49:40.200 --> 0:49:44.319
<v Speaker 1>lost that many what I considered friends. Now I look

0:49:44.360 --> 0:49:46.879
<v Speaker 1>back and think maybe it wasn't true friends, but the

0:49:46.880 --> 0:49:49.480
<v Speaker 1>ones that were true friends have really stood up and

0:49:50.160 --> 0:49:52.840
<v Speaker 1>had the delete. Yeah, ninety percent of most numbers in

0:49:52.880 --> 0:49:56.279
<v Speaker 1>the phone because I never heard from anyone. I'm sure

0:49:56.320 --> 0:49:57.960
<v Speaker 1>you went through that type of stuff.

0:49:57.840 --> 0:50:00.440
<v Speaker 2>Isn't it funny? I had three phones. I had my

0:50:00.480 --> 0:50:03.600
<v Speaker 2>government phone, my official one, my undercover phone, and my

0:50:03.840 --> 0:50:07.560
<v Speaker 2>personal phone, and between three of them, there wasn't a

0:50:07.680 --> 0:50:09.800
<v Speaker 2>minute when they weren't ringing off the hook. It was

0:50:10.280 --> 0:50:13.880
<v Speaker 2>it was either informants or bad guys, or my colleagues

0:50:13.960 --> 0:50:16.799
<v Speaker 2>or my supervisors or friends or whatever it was. And

0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:21.160
<v Speaker 2>overnight they all went silent, and it was deafining. Silence

0:50:21.239 --> 0:50:21.760
<v Speaker 2>was deafening.

0:50:22.560 --> 0:50:26.520
<v Speaker 1>It's kind stop it. You're making me relive it too,

0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:31.960
<v Speaker 1>right writing the book? Did you find that cathartic?

0:50:32.160 --> 0:50:35.120
<v Speaker 2>Man? It was because what I did was one of

0:50:35.160 --> 0:50:39.360
<v Speaker 2>my my supervisors at the end, he pulled me aside,

0:50:39.440 --> 0:50:41.359
<v Speaker 2>and you know they all had my back. Man, they

0:50:41.400 --> 0:50:43.560
<v Speaker 2>were great. He pulled me dound and he said, here's

0:50:43.560 --> 0:50:46.480
<v Speaker 2>what I want you to do. He goes that copy

0:50:46.520 --> 0:50:48.120
<v Speaker 2>over there, he goes, I want you to print out

0:50:48.160 --> 0:50:52.680
<v Speaker 2>every report you've ever written. I just started printing them out,

0:50:52.760 --> 0:50:55.120
<v Speaker 2>and that's what I used. You know, I read through

0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:57.239
<v Speaker 2>them to help me write the book. And it was

0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:01.960
<v Speaker 2>absolutely it was cathartic. And my case in particular, the

0:51:02.000 --> 0:51:05.200
<v Speaker 2>two false allegations against me, what they accused me of

0:51:05.680 --> 0:51:09.400
<v Speaker 2>were they were killers. Because the worst thing you can

0:51:09.440 --> 0:51:14.719
<v Speaker 2>do to a cop is to accuse him of being untruthful, right,

0:51:14.719 --> 0:51:17.799
<v Speaker 2>because it cures credibility. So the two accusation against me,

0:51:17.880 --> 0:51:21.000
<v Speaker 2>where one was perjury on the stand and the other

0:51:21.239 --> 0:51:26.840
<v Speaker 2>was false information in an application for the s visa

0:51:26.920 --> 0:51:30.680
<v Speaker 2>for my informant. So when you when you accuse, all

0:51:30.719 --> 0:51:34.600
<v Speaker 2>we have as police officers are a word on the stand.

0:51:34.960 --> 0:51:38.399
<v Speaker 2>When you get accused of being a liar, it's it's

0:51:38.400 --> 0:51:40.960
<v Speaker 2>a career end or it's it's a career killer, not

0:51:41.000 --> 0:51:44.080
<v Speaker 2>only for your law enforcement career, but for any job

0:51:44.120 --> 0:51:47.719
<v Speaker 2>you might want afterward. Right when someone googles you and

0:51:47.760 --> 0:51:52.120
<v Speaker 2>they see an accusation of perjury, you're done. And all

0:51:52.160 --> 0:51:54.160
<v Speaker 2>that made the paper and the internet and the news.

0:51:54.239 --> 0:51:57.040
<v Speaker 2>But when I was found, when I was cleared, it's

0:51:57.040 --> 0:51:59.800
<v Speaker 2>funny that that didn't make the paper. No One on

0:52:00.040 --> 0:52:03.879
<v Speaker 2>no one wrote an article about me getting cleared. So

0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:08.000
<v Speaker 2>so I've had to work extra hard. A guy approached

0:52:08.000 --> 0:52:10.799
<v Speaker 2>me who owns a magazine here and he wanted me

0:52:10.840 --> 0:52:13.920
<v Speaker 2>to be in the magazine. And I was like, I

0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:16.759
<v Speaker 2>was like, dude, I've had my little encounter with the

0:52:16.800 --> 0:52:18.960
<v Speaker 2>press and it hasn't been good, so I'm going to

0:52:19.040 --> 0:52:23.279
<v Speaker 2>have to politely decline. And he said listen. He goes,

0:52:23.280 --> 0:52:25.440
<v Speaker 2>what do you want the most? He goes, what do

0:52:25.520 --> 0:52:28.839
<v Speaker 2>you want in life right now at this point the most?

0:52:28.880 --> 0:52:30.400
<v Speaker 2>And I said, what I want the most is I

0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:33.080
<v Speaker 2>don't want my son to ever google my name and

0:52:33.480 --> 0:52:36.440
<v Speaker 2>see this bullshit that's been written about me. He said, well,

0:52:36.480 --> 0:52:40.120
<v Speaker 2>then you have to bury that with good stuff. Bury it.

0:52:40.160 --> 0:52:43.120
<v Speaker 2>So that's on the tenth page. So I said, okay,

0:52:43.200 --> 0:52:45.200
<v Speaker 2>and I did it. He put me on the cover

0:52:45.239 --> 0:52:48.360
<v Speaker 2>of his magazine and that kind of kickstarted this whole

0:52:48.440 --> 0:52:49.160
<v Speaker 2>second career.

0:52:49.960 --> 0:52:52.680
<v Speaker 1>Ill, full credit to you, because these are hard ride

0:52:52.760 --> 0:52:55.240
<v Speaker 1>back and all the things that you touch on, I

0:52:54.920 --> 0:52:59.800
<v Speaker 1>know how it hits. But look, I'm glad you found something.

0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:03.960
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like you got some exciting things at foot

0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:07.239
<v Speaker 1>in the in the future. You're talking of the TV show,

0:53:07.280 --> 0:53:09.479
<v Speaker 1>You've got something coming up along those lines as well.

0:53:10.040 --> 0:53:13.440
<v Speaker 2>So we the first season just finished. We filmed it

0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:16.160
<v Speaker 2>in twenty twenty four and it ran its course on

0:53:16.680 --> 0:53:21.439
<v Speaker 2>Discovery and on Matt HBO Max or Max. It's called

0:53:21.520 --> 0:53:25.839
<v Speaker 2>Operation Undercover. And I'm the host of the show. And

0:53:25.880 --> 0:53:28.839
<v Speaker 2>what I do is I go around this country, around

0:53:28.880 --> 0:53:33.480
<v Speaker 2>America to different cities, different police departments and sheriff departments,

0:53:33.920 --> 0:53:36.719
<v Speaker 2>and we embed with these departments for a week with

0:53:36.800 --> 0:53:40.799
<v Speaker 2>their undercover units. And they let us right in. And

0:53:40.880 --> 0:53:42.719
<v Speaker 2>I mean when I say in bed like we are

0:53:42.760 --> 0:53:45.560
<v Speaker 2>in the cars with them. When there's an undercover officer

0:53:45.640 --> 0:53:49.560
<v Speaker 2>walking into a hotel room to buy, you know, a

0:53:49.640 --> 0:53:53.640
<v Speaker 2>kilo of fentanyl from some cartel guy. We're right on

0:53:53.680 --> 0:53:57.319
<v Speaker 2>the outside on the perimeter, watching and you know, we

0:53:57.400 --> 0:54:00.200
<v Speaker 2>show it all and it all gets shown. And we

0:54:00.239 --> 0:54:05.560
<v Speaker 2>did seven episodes in different states, all over the country,

0:54:05.600 --> 0:54:09.719
<v Speaker 2>different police department, and we show the case. You know,

0:54:09.719 --> 0:54:11.799
<v Speaker 2>these are these are faster cases because we're only there

0:54:11.800 --> 0:54:13.640
<v Speaker 2>for a week, but we show from beginning to end,

0:54:13.680 --> 0:54:16.280
<v Speaker 2>from when they're talking to the informant and he's bringing

0:54:16.400 --> 0:54:19.759
<v Speaker 2>the undercover officer in and the drug buys or the

0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:24.680
<v Speaker 2>gun buys, whatever happens to be, and then afterward when

0:54:24.719 --> 0:54:26.839
<v Speaker 2>they kick the door in and take down the bad guy,

0:54:26.880 --> 0:54:30.239
<v Speaker 2>we show the whole thing. So it's no recreations. This

0:54:30.400 --> 0:54:34.000
<v Speaker 2>is real. It's fast paced. I mean it's no again,

0:54:34.080 --> 0:54:36.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't like recreations. There's no it's all real. And

0:54:36.920 --> 0:54:39.200
<v Speaker 2>and I'll tell you what, man, it is exciting as.

0:54:39.040 --> 0:54:42.040
<v Speaker 1>How Yeah, no, it sounds it because like the undercover

0:54:42.160 --> 0:54:44.480
<v Speaker 1>work is a world that even cops don't get to see,

0:54:44.840 --> 0:54:47.840
<v Speaker 1>Like cops get to see up things other people don't see.

0:54:47.880 --> 0:54:50.080
<v Speaker 1>But then that's at another level when you look at

0:54:50.080 --> 0:54:53.640
<v Speaker 1>the the undercover stuff. So that that sounds sounds good.

0:54:54.160 --> 0:54:56.479
<v Speaker 1>Second book in the in the planning as well.

0:54:56.560 --> 0:55:00.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. After So the first book did really good. It

0:55:00.719 --> 0:55:04.520
<v Speaker 2>was called Storefront Sting, an ATF agent's life undercover, and

0:55:04.560 --> 0:55:07.120
<v Speaker 2>I basically tell my story like I've told it to you,

0:55:07.680 --> 0:55:11.400
<v Speaker 2>and it was actually it was bought by a Hollywood company.

0:55:12.040 --> 0:55:15.440
<v Speaker 2>Right now. These things take forever, but right now it's

0:55:15.480 --> 0:55:17.640
<v Speaker 2>it's in front of Netflix and they're looking at it

0:55:17.719 --> 0:55:22.239
<v Speaker 2>at possibly making it into a Netflix series with each

0:55:22.280 --> 0:55:27.120
<v Speaker 2>storefront being a different season, you know, using different actors

0:55:27.120 --> 0:55:30.680
<v Speaker 2>for different my different undercover teams and all. So we'll

0:55:30.680 --> 0:55:34.040
<v Speaker 2>see if that happens. And you know, I'm right now,

0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:36.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm waiting to hear from Discovery by season two for

0:55:36.120 --> 0:55:37.080
<v Speaker 2>Operation Undercover.

0:55:37.560 --> 0:55:42.560
<v Speaker 1>Exciting times and in my transition from policing into working

0:55:42.560 --> 0:55:45.480
<v Speaker 1>in the media, it's good working with creative people too,

0:55:45.520 --> 0:55:48.360
<v Speaker 1>isn't it. Sometimes policing can be a little bit negative.

0:55:48.640 --> 0:55:52.799
<v Speaker 1>And then you step away and yeah, credit where credits due.

0:55:52.840 --> 0:55:55.000
<v Speaker 1>If you're doing a good job, it's not it's you're

0:55:55.040 --> 0:55:58.520
<v Speaker 1>not competing. It's creative people and they've got an energy

0:55:58.600 --> 0:56:03.000
<v Speaker 1>that's sort of revitalizes. So that's I'm glad you found

0:56:03.040 --> 0:56:03.399
<v Speaker 1>that path.

0:56:03.560 --> 0:56:05.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah man, I'm you know, I'm glad you got a

0:56:05.640 --> 0:56:07.719
<v Speaker 2>second career as well, and you're in it. I don't

0:56:07.760 --> 0:56:10.160
<v Speaker 2>know if you experienced the same thing I did what

0:56:10.440 --> 0:56:15.239
<v Speaker 2>I found. Uh, what the entertainment industry. That downside is

0:56:15.239 --> 0:56:17.080
<v Speaker 2>at least when I was when I was a cop,

0:56:17.520 --> 0:56:22.320
<v Speaker 2>every two weeks my paycheck came in. And regardless I

0:56:22.400 --> 0:56:24.640
<v Speaker 2>knew it, it is so hard getting people to write

0:56:24.640 --> 0:56:28.759
<v Speaker 2>you a check in the entertainment industry, Like yeah, I

0:56:28.760 --> 0:56:30.400
<v Speaker 2>mean if you see in your family from it, you

0:56:30.520 --> 0:56:31.680
<v Speaker 2>really got to hustle, man.

0:56:32.160 --> 0:56:34.600
<v Speaker 1>And I can see your experience when you're sign oh

0:56:34.640 --> 0:56:37.320
<v Speaker 1>they're doing this. But until it's done, that it's done.

0:56:37.560 --> 0:56:41.080
<v Speaker 1>Do you miss aspects of place in the adrenaline Russian

0:56:41.600 --> 0:56:44.320
<v Speaker 1>aspects of the life that you lived?

0:56:44.960 --> 0:56:49.040
<v Speaker 2>So that's crazy. The answer was definitely a yes. But

0:56:49.640 --> 0:56:52.720
<v Speaker 2>fortunately last year I got to experience it again because

0:56:52.719 --> 0:56:56.120
<v Speaker 2>I found myself right back in the mix with these

0:56:56.160 --> 0:56:58.719
<v Speaker 2>cops through and undercover cases. I just I didn't have

0:56:58.719 --> 0:57:00.640
<v Speaker 2>a gun, right.

0:57:01.080 --> 0:57:05.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm actually lou now I know exactly what your man.

0:57:05.239 --> 0:57:06.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm a bit pissed off of you. Why can't we

0:57:07.000 --> 0:57:10.120
<v Speaker 1>do and embedding the homicide de technique with homicide sands

0:57:10.520 --> 0:57:13.840
<v Speaker 1>sands good, I just want to finish off with because

0:57:14.080 --> 0:57:17.840
<v Speaker 1>we're struggling to find place here in Australia in different

0:57:17.840 --> 0:57:20.960
<v Speaker 1>states and all that the UN demanded and they seems

0:57:21.000 --> 0:57:23.800
<v Speaker 1>to be a real reluctance for people to join the place.

0:57:24.280 --> 0:57:27.040
<v Speaker 1>What would you say to anyone that's considering a career

0:57:27.080 --> 0:57:27.960
<v Speaker 1>in law enforcement.

0:57:28.160 --> 0:57:30.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, we've had the same thing here in America. Right,

0:57:30.800 --> 0:57:34.360
<v Speaker 2>It's been a tough five years for law enforcement in America.

0:57:34.400 --> 0:57:39.320
<v Speaker 2>We've had we've had riots, we've had craziness. Recruiting is

0:57:39.360 --> 0:57:42.960
<v Speaker 2>down to zero. You know, over here cops are not

0:57:43.080 --> 0:57:45.280
<v Speaker 2>paid well. You know, if you want to if you

0:57:45.360 --> 0:57:46.960
<v Speaker 2>want to be rich in this country, you don't go

0:57:47.000 --> 0:57:49.200
<v Speaker 2>into law enforcement. And I'm sure it's that way in

0:57:49.600 --> 0:57:53.520
<v Speaker 2>most countries, but here, here's what I would tell and

0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:56.920
<v Speaker 2>I do tell when when young people ask me about

0:57:56.960 --> 0:58:01.560
<v Speaker 2>going into law enforcement, I tell them this. I say, listen,

0:58:01.640 --> 0:58:08.280
<v Speaker 2>if you want a career where you will really experience

0:58:09.760 --> 0:58:12.240
<v Speaker 2>a true brotherhood. And when I say a brotherhood, I

0:58:12.240 --> 0:58:14.400
<v Speaker 2>mean it doesn't matter. I'm not talking a male female,

0:58:14.840 --> 0:58:18.720
<v Speaker 2>just a real brotherhood in a connection. I said, there's

0:58:18.880 --> 0:58:22.040
<v Speaker 2>nothing other than possibly the military where you're going to

0:58:22.120 --> 0:58:25.760
<v Speaker 2>experience that being part of a team and doing something

0:58:25.800 --> 0:58:31.640
<v Speaker 2>that's fulfilling and you know, and actually making a difference

0:58:31.800 --> 0:58:35.680
<v Speaker 2>and helping to protect the community. And you're going to

0:58:35.800 --> 0:58:38.480
<v Speaker 2>also depending on where you want to go. There's so

0:58:38.520 --> 0:58:41.560
<v Speaker 2>many avenues once you get into law enforcement. You know,

0:58:41.600 --> 0:58:43.480
<v Speaker 2>if you want to if your thing is you want

0:58:43.480 --> 0:58:49.040
<v Speaker 2>to be a dog handler, you want to work explosives, drugs, guns,

0:58:49.880 --> 0:58:54.760
<v Speaker 2>white collar crime, counterfeiting. I mean, it's unlimited. You can

0:58:54.920 --> 0:58:57.440
<v Speaker 2>go It's not like a regular job where you're pigeonhole.

0:58:57.600 --> 0:59:00.600
<v Speaker 2>You can go into anything and it can be it

0:59:00.600 --> 0:59:05.560
<v Speaker 2>can be fulfilling. My only word of caution or warning

0:59:06.080 --> 0:59:08.880
<v Speaker 2>is that don't go into it if you think if

0:59:08.920 --> 0:59:12.600
<v Speaker 2>you're doing it for accolades or appreciation, because you're not,

0:59:12.800 --> 0:59:18.400
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't happen. But and the other thing is if

0:59:18.760 --> 0:59:21.080
<v Speaker 2>if it is your choice and you do it, and

0:59:21.360 --> 0:59:24.280
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't tell anyone not to do it, build that

0:59:24.360 --> 0:59:26.440
<v Speaker 2>resume while you're doing it, and think of the future,

0:59:26.520 --> 0:59:30.840
<v Speaker 2>think of you know, the life life after, because you know,

0:59:31.080 --> 0:59:33.200
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of good things you can go into

0:59:33.320 --> 0:59:37.480
<v Speaker 2>if you're smart about it, opportunities you know after law enforcement,

0:59:37.640 --> 0:59:38.400
<v Speaker 2>which I did.

0:59:38.280 --> 0:59:41.760
<v Speaker 1>Not do, but it's good advice because it can. Yeah,

0:59:42.000 --> 0:59:45.000
<v Speaker 1>you're playing at the sharp end of a world and

0:59:45.040 --> 0:59:48.040
<v Speaker 1>that can end pretty quickly in dramatic circumstances, and you

0:59:48.040 --> 0:59:51.560
<v Speaker 1>should look what you've got the outside of law enforcement.

0:59:52.400 --> 0:59:55.320
<v Speaker 1>I've really enjoyed this chat that gets me itchy feet

0:59:55.360 --> 0:59:57.400
<v Speaker 1>and wants me to be a cop again here in

0:59:57.440 --> 1:00:01.200
<v Speaker 1>the stories, and I love the book. And I get

1:00:01.200 --> 1:00:04.200
<v Speaker 1>the shits when I read too many cop books because

1:00:04.200 --> 1:00:06.280
<v Speaker 1>it makes me want to get back into doing what

1:00:06.320 --> 1:00:08.920
<v Speaker 1>I do or what I did, I should say, so

1:00:09.000 --> 1:00:11.080
<v Speaker 1>I haven't even let it go, but I want to

1:00:11.080 --> 1:00:13.560
<v Speaker 1>thank you for the service to the community. And you know,

1:00:13.960 --> 1:00:16.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't think we've mentioned this, but part of your career,

1:00:17.000 --> 1:00:18.720
<v Speaker 1>and I know when it ends not in the way

1:00:18.760 --> 1:00:21.160
<v Speaker 1>you expect that sometimes you think, well, what good have

1:00:21.200 --> 1:00:23.960
<v Speaker 1>I done? I think in the operations you were involved

1:00:23.960 --> 1:00:26.360
<v Speaker 1>in lou there was over a thousand guns taken off

1:00:26.880 --> 1:00:29.400
<v Speaker 1>the street, and not to mention all the drugs and

1:00:29.440 --> 1:00:33.080
<v Speaker 1>everything else. You've made a difference, mate, It's a big.

1:00:32.920 --> 1:00:35.400
<v Speaker 2>Difference, man. I appreciate Thank you for those words. Brother.

1:00:35.600 --> 1:00:38.040
<v Speaker 3>Thanks Will you take care of good luck with the future.

1:00:37.840 --> 1:00:38.600
<v Speaker 2>God bless you.

1:00:38.920 --> 1:00:39.800
<v Speaker 3>Sheeer is all right.