Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Lou Velosi,
Speaker 1: a former US federal agent with the ATF who spent
Speaker 1: over two decades working deep undercover. Lou so much to
Speaker 1: talk about. I'm going to throw one thing out that
Speaker 1: I heard on the podcast. I think it was on
Speaker 1: the real one, but you talked about going into a
Speaker 1: bikie clubhouse. I worked gangs for a long time, so
Speaker 1: I know the environment you're talking about. That you went
Speaker 1: into a bikie clubhouse on an announced to make some connections.
Speaker 1: Do you want to just tell us through that story,
Speaker 1: because it blew me away, the fact that you went
Speaker 1: in there and how you manage yourself in that environment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. You know, it was very early in
Speaker 2: my undercover career. It was actually the first kind of
Speaker 2: I guess what you would call organized crime case I
Speaker 2: got pulled into. You know, I was only doing up
Speaker 2: to that point, I had only done those back alley
Speaker 2: you know, drug deals and gun deals that we talked about.
Speaker 2: So and the only reason I got called into this
Speaker 2: was I was the only agent in my field division,
Speaker 2: the only other agent that had a motorcycle license. It
Speaker 2: wasn't because of any skill or anything I had. I
Speaker 2: really knew nothing about outlaw bakers, you know. I didn't
Speaker 2: grow up in that environment, huge thing up in New York.
Speaker 2: And so there was an undercover agent who was already
Speaker 2: somewhat embedded with this gang and his partner, and in
Speaker 2: a lot of these cases, very important they have a
Speaker 2: partner just for a lot of reasons. His partner was
Speaker 2: a local cop who was just on the task force,
Speaker 2: and when his department saw they were supposed to go
Speaker 2: with this gang down to a bike round at Daytona,
Speaker 2: which is a big bike rally and all that, and
Speaker 2: this was in Atlanta, Georgia. His department were like, listen,
Speaker 2: we didn't really sign up for all this. We're going
Speaker 2: to pull our guy out this. We're getting in a
Speaker 2: little bit over his head, a little bit yeah, a
Speaker 2: little bit deep. So ATF, you know, the ATF agent
Speaker 2: in there needed a partner, so I got the all again.
Speaker 2: The only reason was I had a motorcycle license. And
Speaker 2: the only reason I had a motorcycle license was when
Speaker 2: I was a kid, like I don't know, maybe seventeen
Speaker 2: or eighteen years old, I had a Yamaha for like
Speaker 2: three months.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: I was never any good at riding a motorcycle or
Speaker 2: anything like that, and it never been on a Harley.
Speaker 2: So but I never said no. So when they asked me,
Speaker 2: I said, I'm in. Let's go. So uh you know,
Speaker 2: when I got there, I met the informants, these two
Speaker 2: huge biker guys, the undercover, and they gave me. They
Speaker 2: gave me this chopper, you know, one of them old
Speaker 2: kickstart shovel head Harley's. I didn't I couldn't figure out
Speaker 2: how to start it, let alone ride it. Or so
Speaker 2: they were like, hey, let's go follow us. And you know,
Speaker 2: driving through the north where North Georgia, driving into Atlanta,
Speaker 2: and it was kind of misty, a little bit of
Speaker 2: rain coming down, and these guys drive real fast and
Speaker 2: I'm trying to follow them, you know, the head like
Speaker 2: the all I can say, our tail light's getting farther
Speaker 2: and farther away. And I go around a curve and
Speaker 2: I dropped the bike end up in a ditch. And
Speaker 2: you know if you heard me tell the story before,
Speaker 2: but that I'm in the ditch and the bike's still
Speaker 2: the bike's still on everything, mirrors are all bent and everything.
Speaker 2: And they finally realize I'm not behind him anymore. And
Speaker 2: they come back and the big informant says to the
Speaker 2: undercoverage and goes, you want us to bring this fucking
Speaker 2: guy into the Outlaws clubhouse. He can't even ride a motorcycle.
Speaker 2: And when I when I as bad as I was
Speaker 2: hurting from the fall, when I heard him say that,
Speaker 2: I was like, no, help me pick this bike up
Speaker 2: and bend everything back as best we could. It was
Speaker 2: still driveable, and so we went to this clubhouse. And
Speaker 2: when I walked in, it was it was a shock
Speaker 2: for me. You know. I again, I didn't have any experience.
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about these guys. It was just
Speaker 2: an evil place. And I just got a really bad
Speaker 2: feeling in there. And you know, there's these guys and
Speaker 2: they're just some nasty fellas. I mean, you guys, you
Speaker 2: got them over there. You know, they're some bad guys.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 2: And I'm in there and I realize, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't know how to act. I don't know anything about
Speaker 2: these guys. So you know, I'm going to listen to
Speaker 2: my partner, my old my old partner, my first partner.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut for a while.
Speaker 2: And I did. I just I just got I was
Speaker 2: a wallflower, man. I just stood against the wall, and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, my my my new partner there is you know,
Speaker 2: he's interacting with these guys and they're kissing and hugging
Speaker 2: and drinking and all that, and I, you know, I
Speaker 2: just stood there, man, and I watched. I watched how
Speaker 2: these guys carried themselves, how they handled themselves. And I
Speaker 2: could tell right away who the president was by the
Speaker 2: way he was being treated and all. And uh, after
Speaker 2: probably close to forty five minutes of not saying a
Speaker 2: word and just watching, I made the decision to approach
Speaker 2: the president. I went up to the president. You know,
Speaker 2: like I said before, I was real big back then,
Speaker 2: and I you know, so I figured, you know, at
Speaker 2: least I got something to offer. I'm a big goon,
Speaker 2: at least young. And I said to the President, sir,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, this is my name, and this
Speaker 2: is my first time here. I'm with SO and so.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't I don't know your your rules,
Speaker 2: I don't know your you know your culture, and I
Speaker 2: certainly don't want to offend you or anybody else. I
Speaker 2: just want to learn from you guys because I like
Speaker 2: what I see and I want to become one of
Speaker 2: you guys someday. And man, he just ate that up
Speaker 2: because he's looking at he's just looking at this goon,
Speaker 2: this big goon that that he can mold, you know,
Speaker 2: and make you lose, because that's what they do, They
Speaker 2: use people, and making the one of his own. And
Speaker 2: from that point he just he took a lake into
Speaker 2: me and took me under his wing. And I learned
Speaker 2: such a valuable lesson that day for my future long
Speaker 2: term operations. You know, shut up, read the room right,
Speaker 2: and you know, talk very strategically to the right people. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Look, I wanted to unpack that and get you to
Speaker 1: tell that story again because when you started telling the
Speaker 1: story that you had a bike license, like, okay, that's
Speaker 1: not going to make you look like you've been born
Speaker 1: on the Harley Davidson be able to rock up to
Speaker 1: a clubhouse and look, look the part and act the part.
Speaker 1: So I was laughing with you, but also at you,
Speaker 1: thinking who the hell's this bloke think he is? He's
Speaker 1: going to pull this one off? Full cu thos to
Speaker 1: you after you dropped the bike to get back on there.
Speaker 1: But I understand when your pride's being insulted sometimes you
Speaker 1: just got to suck it in. But I was really curious.
Speaker 1: I was really because and if you want to talk
Speaker 1: bikes with legitimate bikes are going to catch out within
Speaker 1: saying halla if you don't know your way around the Harley.
Speaker 1: But the other thing is I was really curious knowing
Speaker 1: the atmosphere, and you described it very well. What goes
Speaker 1: on in the clubhouse. It has a sense of menace
Speaker 1: about it. The moment you set foot in there, how
Speaker 1: you handle it. And it was a fascinating way that okay,
Speaker 1: and I really got an insight into the way that
Speaker 1: you would operate. Like you could have gone in there
Speaker 1: and tried to talk as a tough guy and they
Speaker 1: would have smelt you out straight straight away and think
Speaker 1: how that this is not adding up? But the approach
Speaker 1: you had seemed to just work perfectly for you.
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't like it. I never liked the
Speaker 2: biker stuff. I only did two of those, which was
Speaker 2: which was two more than I wanted to do. I
Speaker 2: ended up after the Outlaws in Atlanta, I ended up
Speaker 2: going to California maybe maybe three or four years later
Speaker 2: and on a Hell's Angels, working under cover on a
Speaker 2: Hell's Angels out of San Diego case. And I tell
Speaker 2: you I never I never really got much better on
Speaker 2: a motorcycle. And just to bring in the story full circle,
Speaker 2: I actually, you know, I had an undercover motorcycle for
Speaker 2: most of my career, and you know then I just
Speaker 2: I kind of got into it a little bit, and
Speaker 2: I probably owned maybe six or seven Harley's on personal bikes,
Speaker 2: and but I never it just wasn't me. I never
Speaker 2: was a good motorcycle rider. In about about five years ago,
Speaker 2: we were going on a family vacation. I hadn't started
Speaker 2: my bike in probably three or four months, so I said,
Speaker 2: you know what, let me just let me just ride
Speaker 2: the bike around the neighborhood just to charge the battery.
Speaker 2: And so I just drove around my neighborhood and it
Speaker 2: had rained like the day before, and I was I
Speaker 2: couldn't have been going more in two or three miles
Speaker 2: per hour. I mean I was early moving, just taking
Speaker 2: a turn. I went over some leaves. I didn't realize
Speaker 2: they were wet underneath, and the bike went out and
Speaker 2: I fell. I dumped the bike again. And I saw
Speaker 2: that bike as soon as we got back from vacation,
Speaker 2: and I've never been on one since.
Speaker 3: So your bike riding days, Yeah, that was it.
Speaker 1: That's a pretty It's a pretty easy way to make
Speaker 1: a fool of yourself when you think you're sitting pretty
Speaker 1: looking cool, And yeah, you shouldn't have gone over those leaves.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you pull up and just drop the bike
Speaker 1: and can't pick it up. But all these things that
Speaker 1: can happen dealing with the pressure. There was another interesting
Speaker 1: thing I've heard you say in interviews that you would
Speaker 1: quite often go into boxing gyms or jiu jitsu and
Speaker 1: get lit up by some some boxer, or you get
Speaker 1: grappled to the ground and mauled by someone that's a
Speaker 1: little bit better. The way that you were talking about it,
Speaker 1: you're talking about, well, the pressure that you feel when
Speaker 1: you're getting lit up by someone in the boxing ring
Speaker 1: that's better than you and you still got two minutes
Speaker 1: ago of a three minute round. That's the type of
Speaker 1: pressure you need to be able to deal with when
Speaker 1: you're you're undercovering the pressure spots. Is that something that
Speaker 1: you would just work for you? Finding pressure, dealing with
Speaker 1: pressure that way, that was.
Speaker 2: About the only thing that worked for me. And it's funny,
Speaker 2: very similar feeling to me to walk into a boxing
Speaker 2: gym in some strange city to Spa was a very
Speaker 2: similar feeling as walking into that outlaw biker clubhouse, right,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of enemy territory. You know, no one
Speaker 2: knows you, but you know, a big guy walking into
Speaker 2: a boxing gym, everyone's going to be looking at you.
Speaker 2: You know, you're getting a ring and it is amazing,
Speaker 2: you know, when you when you are not a professional
Speaker 2: fighter and you get into a ring with a pro,
Speaker 2: you know, even I'm just talking about these local pros
Speaker 2: who just fight club like, you know, the skill difference
Speaker 2: is just amazing.
Speaker 3: And your up block at Christmas str Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: And if they ninety nine percent of them are cool,
Speaker 2: you know, but you know there's always one. Sometimes it
Speaker 2: goes overboard, but but it to me, it was it
Speaker 2: was a mental exercise as much as it was physical exercise,
Speaker 2: just to keep me on my toes and keep that
Speaker 2: uh you know, that that sense of being uncomfortable, you know,
Speaker 2: getting comfortable with being in an uncomfortable situation, whether it's
Speaker 2: you know, whether you're someone's taking your back on the
Speaker 2: mat in jiu jitsu, you know, or some guys just
Speaker 2: just sending body shots into you, you know, in a
Speaker 2: in a boxing ring, you know, to be able to
Speaker 2: breathe and still keep your head and be comfortable in
Speaker 2: those kind of situations. So to me, that that was
Speaker 2: how I did a lot of guys, you know, would
Speaker 2: just go out and drink their asses off, but that
Speaker 2: that worked. Not that I didn't do that as well,
Speaker 2: but that worked better for me to keep me mentally
Speaker 2: sound during these things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was fascinated that it came up in conversation
Speaker 1: with you, and I just I could really relate to
Speaker 1: it because it was a way of sort of separating.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I also sometimes find have a drink and
Speaker 1: forget about things, but then you wake up the next
Speaker 1: day's it hasn't got it got any better. So, yeah, challenging,
Speaker 1: challenging yourself there, And yeah, when you're walking in and
Speaker 1: you would you would have walked in the court. I
Speaker 1: always got nervous before I walked in the court. Didn't
Speaker 1: matter that you weren't hiding anything. You knew you were
Speaker 1: going to be carved up and carved up very publicly.
Speaker 1: That you get a custom to that pressure that you're
Speaker 1: comfortable being uncomfortable. And I could really relate to relate
Speaker 1: to that, And it's just it's a good way. And
Speaker 1: there's other ways you could find that. But let's let's
Speaker 1: talk about the storefront sting, because it's a strategy that
Speaker 1: you you became an expert on, like across the country.
Speaker 1: And if I'm not wrong, it's yeah, the amount of
Speaker 1: guns and drugs you got off the street from these
Speaker 1: operations known there's a store storefront stink.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was you know, I start out by saying,
Speaker 2: we did not invent the storefront you know concept that
Speaker 2: you know, the ny PD and LAPD they were doing
Speaker 2: these things back in the sixties and seventies, but for
Speaker 2: the most part, they were just doing and they were
Speaker 2: trying to disrupt these fencing operations stolen goods, you know,
Speaker 2: so they would do little pawn shop type places and
Speaker 2: to take in stolen merchandise. For the most part, we
Speaker 2: took that concept and just blew it up and made
Speaker 2: it bigger and bigger. And you know, I fell into
Speaker 2: that kind of the same way, you know, I fell
Speaker 2: into that bike case. I just got a phone call
Speaker 2: from an agent who in another office, who said, hey, man,
Speaker 2: would you uh you know, we have a we're starting
Speaker 2: up this storefront operation. It's going to be a tattoo shop.
Speaker 2: We're doing it in conjunction with the local Sheriff's department.
Speaker 2: We need an undercover. Would you do the undercover? I
Speaker 2: said absolutely, I'll be there tomorrow. And I didn't even
Speaker 2: I didn't really even know what a storefront was. So
Speaker 2: I went up there and I saw the setup they
Speaker 2: had and it was phenomenal. Man. It was in a
Speaker 2: really bad neighborhood, very ghetto, and it was a it
Speaker 2: was a ghetto tattoo shop like it was the kind
Speaker 2: of place you wouldn't want to get a tattoo for
Speaker 2: the most part. And the informant was the tattoo artist,
Speaker 2: and he was trying to stay out of prison and
Speaker 2: he had already in prison. He had tattooed everybody, so
Speaker 2: he knew the players. He knew everybody. And his deal
Speaker 2: with you know, with the police and with ATF was
Speaker 2: he was going to work off his charges by doing
Speaker 2: this case. So he was just going to do the
Speaker 2: tattoos and bring the bad guys in and it was
Speaker 2: my job in my undercover team to engage them. And
Speaker 2: it was a gang ridden place, gangs everywhere, and you know,
Speaker 2: we were to buy the guns, buy the drugs, stolen cars,
Speaker 2: whatever they were doing, and and you know, hopefully take
Speaker 2: some of these gangs down. So we started and I
Speaker 2: was the manager of this place, and we had, you know,
Speaker 2: we had the tattoo area with the chair and then
Speaker 2: there was just like an area where we sold paraphernalia
Speaker 2: and all the flash on the wall and rolling papers
Speaker 2: and all that stuff. And I didn't really have high
Speaker 2: expected I didn't really know what to expect. And you know,
Speaker 2: as they started in, you know that people get tattoos,
Speaker 2: and we started just having conversations. They had a lot
Speaker 2: of good ideas. The Sheriff's department. They said, we're going
Speaker 2: to put out a clear box of sharpiees markers and
Speaker 2: the walls were all white, right, they didn't. They just
Speaker 2: painted all the walls white. They said, we're gonna tell
Speaker 2: these guys they can go ahead and they can tag
Speaker 2: all the walls whatever they want, you know, just tell
Speaker 2: them no hateing, keep it sill. So we told that
Speaker 2: and they started tagging the walls and doing all their
Speaker 2: gang signs and stuff. And you know, the whole no
Speaker 2: hating thing. That lasted about ten minutes, right, and there's
Speaker 2: their fin me veiled threats and you know, murder threats
Speaker 2: and all that, and you know, we actually cut all
Speaker 2: that out as evidence, all the drywall at the end
Speaker 2: of the case. But we told these guys when they
Speaker 2: would come in, listen, this is neutral territory. Everybody's welcome here.
Speaker 2: No beefing when you're in here. It's neutral. So it
Speaker 2: just started out real small. You know, they would come
Speaker 2: in and they you know, everyone was smoking weed. And
Speaker 2: there the informant was smoking weed. He wasn't supposed to.
Speaker 2: All the everyone who was in there was smoking weed
Speaker 2: except for us. But you know, there was no ventilation,
Speaker 2: there was no I mean, so we were probably high
Speaker 2: the whole time, I'm sure. And we just started making
Speaker 2: conversation with these guys and inevitably, you know, these guys
Speaker 2: sell drugs and guns, and it came up and I
Speaker 2: let them know that. My side hustle was I had
Speaker 2: a moving truck, which we really did, and I would
Speaker 2: move people, you know, from place to place. But I
Speaker 2: would use that truck when I got enough guns that
Speaker 2: I would sell in New York. And I don't know
Speaker 2: what you know about you know, I don't know how
Speaker 2: it works in Australia. But you know, every state has
Speaker 2: different gun laws here. So it's the whole supplied demand graph, right,
Speaker 2: So in states like New York where the normal person
Speaker 2: can't get a gun and carry it, okay, and in
Speaker 2: places down south here Georgia, Carolinas, anyone can buy a
Speaker 2: gun and carry it. So that that gun down here
Speaker 2: that you can buy for three hundred bucks, is you
Speaker 2: can sell in New York for two thousand bucks on
Speaker 2: the streets. So gun trafficking is a real thing, very
Speaker 2: very common. So I told them, listen, once I get
Speaker 2: like two three hundred guns, I just I fill that
Speaker 2: truck with furniture and I'll move a family from Atlanta
Speaker 2: to New York and I just put all the guns,
Speaker 2: hide them into furniture. Even if I get pulled over,
Speaker 2: I say, man, I'm just moving furniture. You know, it's
Speaker 2: not my stuff. And these guys love that. They were
Speaker 2: like right on. So that was my excuse to keep
Speaker 2: buying guns. So next thing I knew, man, we are
Speaker 2: asking for more money. We don't even have enough buy
Speaker 2: money we got. We're buying tens of thousands of X
Speaker 2: SEE pills, and we're buying machine guns, sought off shotguns,
Speaker 2: stolen guns, every you name it, we're buying it, grenades,
Speaker 2: everything they're bringing in, you know, every drug known to mankind.
Speaker 2: And this thing is just spider webbing and without you know,
Speaker 2: once the word got out in the street, we didn't
Speaker 2: even have to do that much. They were just coming
Speaker 2: to us, and we're having to be strategic with spending
Speaker 2: money because we only want to spend on you know,
Speaker 2: get the most bang for the buck, we're actually turning
Speaker 2: we're turning people away. And so the success, you know,
Speaker 2: twelve months later, it was a twelve month operation. We
Speaker 2: had purchased four hundred and thirty crime guns.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: And this is a small city. This is Augusta, Georgia,
Speaker 2: not a huge city. And you know drug I mean,
Speaker 2: I can't even tell you how much drugs. But we
Speaker 2: had one hundred defendants, one hundred federal defense now about
Speaker 2: I think we had sixty five federal defendants in about
Speaker 2: thirty five state defense. And you know, these are these
Speaker 2: are numbers that AHTF wasn't used to seeing. It was
Speaker 2: a real big it was a big deal.
Speaker 1: As they're coming in, you're recording all the transactions and
Speaker 1: keeping the records.
Speaker 3: It's and it's basically you've you've got them jammed up
Speaker 3: big time.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: If if that they've come in there, they've they've come
Speaker 1: into your trap and it's going to be very hard
Speaker 1: for them to uh wiggle their way out of that
Speaker 1: in the court situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say it was entrapment
Speaker 2: or anything else when you're on camera driving up in
Speaker 2: your car, walking through the door, pulling a gun out
Speaker 2: of your waist and selling it.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: It's a tough one to defend. That's why none of
Speaker 2: those cases ever want to trial. The hardest part in
Speaker 2: that type operation, we found out was identifying everybody right, okay.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: They would never drive up in a car that registered
Speaker 2: to them. It'd be registered to some girl and or
Speaker 2: be a rental and they would be rented by somebody else,
Speaker 2: some girl or whatever it was. They'd never give you
Speaker 2: a real name, you know, a lot of times they
Speaker 2: were just using burner phone. So we'd get real creative
Speaker 2: to identify these guys. Sometimes we would have to have
Speaker 2: cover teams follow them and you know, try and put
Speaker 2: them to bed whatever it was, you know, we did.
Speaker 2: We did other creative things like giveaways. We found that
Speaker 2: these guys never wanted to give out their real name
Speaker 2: or their real number. But if you offered them something free,
Speaker 2: the possibility of a free television or or you know,
Speaker 2: a three hundred dollars cash prize or something, they would
Speaker 2: fill out the little form and they would put a
Speaker 2: real phone number or real name or some way to
Speaker 2: get a hold of them in case they won. And
Speaker 2: I would tell these guys, listen, just fold it at
Speaker 2: the corner and I'll make sure I pick you one
Speaker 2: because I'm the one who picks the winning So so
Speaker 2: we did that a lot, and we would actually give
Speaker 2: TVs away whatever it was to keep it real. But
Speaker 2: that's and even if they didn't put anything real down,
Speaker 2: we would even have the prints lifted from the little
Speaker 2: slip they filled out when they dropped it in. So
Speaker 2: we got creative.
Speaker 1: I love the creative side of it, like law enforcement,
Speaker 1: and I think that's a part of law enforcement people
Speaker 1: see as black and white, but the creative thinking like that.
Speaker 1: I'm getting excited just thinking of all the opportunities where
Speaker 1: you've got people coming in like that and the things
Speaker 1: that you could do. One of the things that you
Speaker 1: talk about in the book, and you use a number
Speaker 1: of examples, but just give a sense of it when
Speaker 1: you talk street theater, when you've got to get these
Speaker 1: blokes to the people that you're trying to bring in,
Speaker 1: get them to accept you are the genuine bad guys.
Speaker 2: Street theater is my favorite aspect of my career.
Speaker 3: I reckon it would be a bit of fun.
Speaker 2: The most fun I ever had my whole career was
Speaker 2: doing street theater. And you know, I again, I take
Speaker 2: no cared. I didn't invent it was gays before for
Speaker 2: me who were doing it, But basically the principal was
Speaker 2: and we did it for several reasons, but the main
Speaker 2: reasons we were doing it the street theater in these
Speaker 2: storefronts was to show the bad guys, you know, in
Speaker 2: this community we were in that we were moving the product, right,
Speaker 2: because who just keeps buying drugs and keeps buying guns
Speaker 2: like NonStop cops. Okay, you wanted to show them that,
Speaker 2: you know, we had on our own hustle and ongoing operation.
Speaker 2: You know, we were buying this stuff and we were
Speaker 2: selling you know, whatever happened to be, the guns and
Speaker 2: the drugs, stolen cars, whatever. So we would do what
Speaker 2: we called street theater operations where we would hire Usually
Speaker 2: we would hire one of the local gangs we were
Speaker 2: dealing with as security for the deal, and then we
Speaker 2: would call in other undercover agents from different cities who
Speaker 2: wouldn't be known there to come in and we would
Speaker 2: do a deal, a fake deal between ourselves. So I
Speaker 2: would for instance, I in this one instance where we
Speaker 2: did a store for an operation that was a military
Speaker 2: surplus store with a shooting a three lane three lane
Speaker 2: shooting range attached to it. It's one of my favorite ones.
Speaker 2: So we had these gangsters coming in and they could
Speaker 2: blast their guns, convicted felons with our guns, shooting in
Speaker 2: our in our shooting. So this local, a local street
Speaker 2: gang we were dealing with. I told these guys we
Speaker 2: had been buying a bunch of guns off these guys,
Speaker 2: and I said, listen, I have to deal with this
Speaker 2: crew out of Miami. I don't know them, and they're
Speaker 2: going to come in here and we're selling them a
Speaker 2: bunch of machine guns. I need I need security. Can
Speaker 2: you you know? Can you can? I hire you for
Speaker 2: to day? And they were like, that's what we do, right,
Speaker 2: And I never told I would never tell any of
Speaker 2: them to bring your gun. I would just hire that.
Speaker 2: I'd say this, I'll give you a couple hundred bucks,
Speaker 2: whatever it was. And but I would always have to
Speaker 2: give them very specific instructions. Don't do anything unless I
Speaker 2: say to do something. Right, you don't have to do anything,
Speaker 2: just stand there, because I didn't want any of these
Speaker 2: guys getting over sell this and pulling guns. And you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, I can say that that, yeah,
Speaker 2: this is all fake. So so these guys would show up.
Speaker 2: We would never set the deal too early because it
Speaker 2: was always hard to get them to show up on time.
Speaker 2: They would show up and we would have all this
Speaker 2: scripted and worked out before with the undercovers. So in
Speaker 2: this particular deal, we had this this incredible guy named
Speaker 2: Richie zaias a Cuban Cuban guy out of South Florida
Speaker 2: showed up with this big bear, this huge guy who
Speaker 2: look like a pirate on steroids, hair and all that.
Speaker 2: That was his bodyguard. And we were selling them ten
Speaker 2: machine guns. And uh, you know, they show up and
Speaker 2: we would do that. I would like be on the
Speaker 2: phone and you know, the guys. I would set these
Speaker 2: guys up around around the business. I'd have two guys
Speaker 2: at the door, one guy post you know, next to
Speaker 2: me at the counter, you know, maybe one guy at
Speaker 2: the other side of the business. And I would tell
Speaker 2: them again, listen, don't do shit unless I say to
Speaker 2: do shit please, all easy money. So so so the
Speaker 2: the fake bad guys would show up in like a
Speaker 2: you know, a panel van and get out and you
Speaker 2: know they always you know, be looking badass, you know, incredible,
Speaker 2: And I just specifically remember this one. So much because
Speaker 2: because Richie was wearing these these fake Nike shoes that
Speaker 2: had Tony Montana on them, you know, the from the
Speaker 2: movie Scarface, and uh, you know, he just heated crazy hair.
Speaker 2: It's just a good look. And so they walk in
Speaker 2: to the business and uh, you know, we kind of
Speaker 2: interact in a non friendly way, and uh, I break
Speaker 2: out one of the machine guns, and he calls a
Speaker 2: big guy over and he says, hey man, I told him.
Speaker 2: I said, listen, we got a place you can shoot
Speaker 2: it right there. So he tells, you know, his partner there,
Speaker 2: hey man, you know, take that gun in there and
Speaker 2: make sure it's a machine gun. So I send one
Speaker 2: of you know, one of the gang members to go
Speaker 2: in there too, and and you know, the ATF agent
Speaker 2: undercover goes in there and blast the machine gun off,
Speaker 2: and you know art, you know, the gang members like
Speaker 2: holy shit, right, and uh yes, oh yeah. So we
Speaker 2: come back and uh, you know, the big guy goes
Speaker 2: out and gets a gets a suitcase full of money,
Speaker 2: brings it in. We do the deal, They take the
Speaker 2: machine guns and leave. And I always when they would
Speaker 2: give me the suit some money, I would always turn
Speaker 2: to one of my partners and say, hey, man, go
Speaker 2: take this to the spot, and he would leave with
Speaker 2: the money because I never wanted that crew to know
Speaker 2: I had a suitcase of money there because they would
Speaker 2: rob me. You know, there's no on thieves. Even though
Speaker 2: I hired them, you know, they'll still put a gun
Speaker 2: on my face and rob me.
Speaker 1: That's where you're vulnerable throughout, like all the stages of
Speaker 1: your every time you're dealing with the bad guys at
Speaker 1: you're targeting, you're a potential victim as well. So you've
Speaker 1: gotta have that, yeah, like whether are they going to
Speaker 1: do a drug grip on you or if you've got
Speaker 1: all these guns stored here on that way, we can
Speaker 1: get that.
Speaker 2: And always that's why we always let these dudes know.
Speaker 2: Would we would show our guns all the time and
Speaker 2: let them know that we had guns because we knew
Speaker 2: they did because there is no honor among thieves. And
Speaker 2: no matter how friendly they were with you. You know,
Speaker 2: we had guys coming into the storefronts that we would
Speaker 2: do a deal with them a drug. They would come
Speaker 2: back that night and burglarize our place. I mean we'd
Speaker 2: recognize and we could see him on the security cameras.
Speaker 2: We just dealt with them and they break in at
Speaker 2: night and steal all our shit, so you know, and
Speaker 2: you know, as an undercover, your fear is not it's not, oh,
Speaker 2: they're gonna they're going to find out that I'm a cop.
Speaker 2: That's not the figure because if they find out you're
Speaker 2: a fed any of these organizations, they're just going to
Speaker 2: put as much distance between themselves and you as they can.
Speaker 2: They don't want to draw any heat on themselves at
Speaker 2: the organization. That's not the fear. The fear is that
Speaker 2: next deal is going to be a rip and they're
Speaker 2: going to kill you. They know you're showing up to buy,
Speaker 2: you know, a ki low and you're showing up with
Speaker 2: fifteen thousand dollars. So this time, even though they've dealt
Speaker 2: with you four times already, on the fifth time, they're
Speaker 2: gonna shoot you and take your money. That's the fear.
Speaker 1: That that would be the real real risk with it
Speaker 1: when you do take them down on those sting operations.
Speaker 1: And yeah, that was your career, A large portion of
Speaker 1: your your career was built on that, and you became
Speaker 1: an expert and was going across the country advising other people.
Speaker 1: When you do take them down, there was one and
Speaker 1: I talk about this, and this is more talking on
Speaker 1: the emotional level from being an undercover agent when you
Speaker 1: do take them down a lot of people. I would
Speaker 1: imagine you've built strong relationships with the long you're in there,
Speaker 1: and you seem to be a guy that understands human nature,
Speaker 1: and I dare say because of the person you are,
Speaker 1: but the nature of the work. There was one particular
Speaker 1: one that you mentioned in the book where you had
Speaker 1: to go in and front the bloke, and a bloke
Speaker 1: that in fact invited you out I think for his
Speaker 1: fortieth birthday to celebrate because he trusted you, of all
Speaker 1: people to trust, and couldn't trust his trust his friends,
Speaker 1: and you were there when he got taken down and
Speaker 1: had to front him. Do you want to tell people
Speaker 1: about what happened there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a tough one. It was in Chicago.
Speaker 2: He was a member of the Outlaws motorcycle gang and
Speaker 2: he was also a member of UH, an Italian mafia
Speaker 2: family Lisaro in Chicago. They called the outfit, that's what
Speaker 2: they call the mafia, the Italian mafia. So they figured
Speaker 2: they had figured this was a joint case of that
Speaker 2: atf and the FBI, that UH the the mafia was
Speaker 2: hiring the bikers to do some of their dirty work,
Speaker 2: and this guy had done a bombing, a big bombing.
Speaker 2: It all revolved around these video poker machines that the
Speaker 2: mafia was making all the bar owners and restaurant owners
Speaker 2: put in their businesses, and if you didn't want to
Speaker 2: play ball and put their machines in there, they'd blow
Speaker 2: your place up. So so this guy was one of
Speaker 2: those guys who and I'm sure you've run across these
Speaker 2: kind of guys in your career. No one could no
Speaker 2: one could get this guy. He was really smart. He
Speaker 2: was not a convicted felon, uh and he there was
Speaker 2: no crime he wasn't into. He was just really smart
Speaker 2: about it. And the FBI had sent in three informants
Speaker 2: to get him, two of them were dirty cops, childhood friends,
Speaker 2: and he sniffed them all out. He was just a
Speaker 2: sharp guy. So I went in cold on this. It
Speaker 2: was just a really strange case. I went in as
Speaker 2: my covers. I was a kind of a down and
Speaker 2: out MMA fighter up and I was just moved to Chicago.
Speaker 2: And it took months and months and months to get
Speaker 2: in with this guy and get his trust when I
Speaker 2: finally did, the case kind of picked up. I was
Speaker 2: buying stolen merchandise from him. One of his many crimes.
Speaker 2: He was fencing stolen electronics, flat screen TVs, surround sound systems.
Speaker 2: And I don't mean just I mean they were knocking
Speaker 2: off eighteen wheks, like in these deals where the driver
Speaker 2: would get out and walk away and they would get
Speaker 2: in and mafia type deals. So so I, you know,
Speaker 2: I started buying that from him, and then the case
Speaker 2: went along very well. Like like you mentioned, he called
Speaker 2: me out one night, had me out to a strip
Speaker 2: joint and he sits down and he looks me in
Speaker 2: the eye and he tells me listen. He was, I
Speaker 2: can't trust the people I grew up with, you know,
Speaker 2: I can't trust the people in my neighborhood that I
Speaker 2: that I grew up with. He said, so, I really
Speaker 2: appreciate your friendship. And we did a toast and he goes,
Speaker 2: it's my fortieth birthday. I didn't even know that. And
Speaker 2: and and again I'm thinking to myself, because you know,
Speaker 2: I met his wife, I met his kid, and he
Speaker 2: was a good father. He had like a ten year
Speaker 2: old kid, And I'm thinking, man, you know that's u.
Speaker 2: She hadn't trusted me like that kind of you know.
Speaker 2: And anyway, their idea, they really wanted to flip this
Speaker 2: guy to flip on the mafia, and they took him down.
Speaker 2: I knew from spending a year with this guy there
Speaker 2: was no way he was going to flip. I just
Speaker 2: knew I'd gotten to know him. But you know, they
Speaker 2: didn't want to hear that, so they had me lure
Speaker 2: him to the Hilton Hotel at the O'Hare Airport in Chicago.
Speaker 2: He thought he was going to meet Hoyst Gracie, this
Speaker 2: famous MMA fighter, and he shows up. I walk him,
Speaker 2: We go up the elevator and we walk him into
Speaker 2: his room, and instead of Hoyst Gracie, they've lined up
Speaker 2: the whole room with boxes of evidence. Okay, like they're
Speaker 2: making a big show to get him to flip. There's
Speaker 2: the ATF and the FBI agents, and so you know,
Speaker 2: I walk them in. They get him and sit him down,
Speaker 2: and you know, he refuses to believe that I'm a cop.
Speaker 2: He's not talking, he's not giving him anything. So they're like, hey,
Speaker 2: you need to go in there and show him your
Speaker 2: badge and get him to talk. And that's the last
Speaker 2: thing I wanted to do. You know, in my mind,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, listen, I did my job and it sucked,
Speaker 2: but I did it. And now I don't mainly do
Speaker 2: this right. But you know that's the job, right. So
Speaker 2: I walk in there and I show him my badge
Speaker 2: and I tell him, listen, this this is my assignment.
Speaker 2: It's my you know, this is my job what I do.
Speaker 2: And I want you to know that this wasn't personal.
Speaker 2: And he looked at me and he goes, it wasn't personal.
Speaker 2: Everything you've told me up to right now has been
Speaker 2: a lie. You've met my family, my wife, my kid,
Speaker 2: my friends, and you haven't told me anything that's true
Speaker 2: this entire time. You're going to tell me that that's
Speaker 2: not personal. And you know, for once once in my life,
Speaker 2: I had no witty response. I had no retort. I
Speaker 2: just kind of looked at him, shrugged my shoulders, and
Speaker 2: walked away. I never saw him again too. He was
Speaker 2: sitting in the defendant's chair at the trial.
Speaker 1: I feel it it would be hard and you know,
Speaker 1: as you say, you're doing your job. But I think
Speaker 1: he sort of nailed it when he said it's not personal.
Speaker 1: Of course it's personal to him anyway, So yeah, that's a.
Speaker 3: That's a hard hit.
Speaker 1: Another aspect that comes out, which I've always found fascinating
Speaker 1: in police work is dealing with informants, And I just
Speaker 1: want to mention one of your informants, Ray, at one
Speaker 1: of the sting operations. He's referred to in the book
Speaker 1: as Ray, and I just thought, I've a lot of
Speaker 1: work I did in my policing career. I had informants,
Speaker 1: became close to them and respect them for what they
Speaker 1: were doing. But I've also so and I've had informants
Speaker 1: like Ray that feel part of the term and they
Speaker 1: in fact become part of the team and get excited
Speaker 1: about being involved in the operation. I just had put
Speaker 1: a smile on my face. How he wanted to be
Speaker 1: involved in all the takedowns and was telling the technical
Speaker 1: blokes what they should be doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was definitely. You know, his father was a
Speaker 2: big wig with the Indian Police IPS and Ray had
Speaker 2: taken the test three times, you know, to follow on
Speaker 2: his father's footsteps, but he failed all three times. So
Speaker 2: he came to America and bought a convenience store gas station,
Speaker 2: became very successful at that and one day he unknowingly
Speaker 2: walked into an ATF storefront operation and bought untaxed cigarettes
Speaker 2: and ended up getting arrested. So he was here illegally.
Speaker 2: He had overstayed on his visa, and even though the
Speaker 2: untaxed cigarettes really isn't much of a charge, he was
Speaker 2: going to be deported, and somehow his lawyer talked me
Speaker 2: into keeping him here and making him an informant. He
Speaker 2: is the most unlikely informant. I mean, not a physically
Speaker 2: imposing guy. He's just a little Indian dude who didn't
Speaker 2: really speak English very well and had never held a gun,
Speaker 2: never done it be drugs. And this guy became, I
Speaker 2: would say, and I am comfortable saying this, the greatest
Speaker 2: informant the United States government has ever had. Just a
Speaker 2: total natural man. He got me into. He got me
Speaker 2: into Mexican cartels, American street gangs, stolen car rings, just
Speaker 2: the Italian mafia. He was unbelievable because he was so unassuming,
Speaker 2: and he he loved doing it. Uh, you know, we
Speaker 2: didn't pay him. He only did it just to stay
Speaker 2: here was his reason. We never paid him. But he
Speaker 2: wanted he always wanted to go to the extra mile.
Speaker 2: He wanted to be part of the takedown. To you,
Speaker 2: he wanted to tackle these guys himself, to the point
Speaker 2: where he could be very annoying to those, you know,
Speaker 2: to cops who didn't know him, and it was almost
Speaker 2: in a comical way, but he really he took pride
Speaker 2: in his job, his role, and in the results that
Speaker 2: we had. And and I'll tell you man it you
Speaker 2: know I did. I developed a relationship with this guy. Uh.
Speaker 2: He was always kind of getting in a little bit
Speaker 2: of trouble, but it was always bullshit tax stuff. But
Speaker 2: you know, when it for the real work, for the
Speaker 2: lord's work, getting you know, crime guns off the street
Speaker 2: and getting you know, large amounts of dangerous drugs, fentannel
Speaker 2: off the street. Man, he was unstoppable and just a
Speaker 2: pleasure to work with. And my second book that I'll
Speaker 2: be coming out with soon is called Raycon The Betrayal
Speaker 2: of an Informant, because he was absolutely he was treated
Speaker 2: like ship by the United States.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I see your anger. And I'll be interested
Speaker 1: in seeing that book because some of them, like the informants,
Speaker 1: really do a good job and they put themselves out
Speaker 1: there and they're putting their lives at risk. Depending on
Speaker 1: the circumstances and all that, but yeah, I can understand it.
Speaker 1: I've also heard you say in different interviews that you've
Speaker 1: done that some of the people that you've worked against,
Speaker 1: as in the crooks and some of the informants, really
Speaker 1: they had your back, and that's a that's a thing
Speaker 1: you know that they've got your back. And I when
Speaker 1: I got into trouble at the end of my police career,
Speaker 1: I had people coming out that i'd locked up supporting me,
Speaker 1: and I had informants coming out that were rock solid
Speaker 1: I had. I had one. He's sadly, I'm not smiling
Speaker 1: when I'm saying this because I miss him. You as
Speaker 1: part of my life. He passed away. But when I
Speaker 1: got in the in trouble and it hit the media
Speaker 1: in the police, he said, hey, brother, don't worry about it.
Speaker 1: If you get locked up, I'll get locked up and
Speaker 1: I'll look after you in the yard.
Speaker 3: Holy he and just you can't.
Speaker 1: Beat that type of type of loyalty. And I smile
Speaker 1: a smile about some of the aspects. You've always got
Speaker 1: to keep your integrity with them and the dealings with them,
Speaker 1: But it doesn't hurt to show a little bit bit
Speaker 1: of humanity towards them, and quite often that's what's motivating him.
Speaker 1: It's not all the ways about the money or getting
Speaker 1: off charges. Sometimes they're trying to do the right thing,
Speaker 1: or they've said that they would help you and they
Speaker 1: stick to their words. So it's an interesting aspect of policing.
Speaker 1: So I'd be very interested in your second book if
Speaker 1: you're covering off on some of that, because some of
Speaker 1: the situation as you find yourself in.
Speaker 2: You know, Gary, it's just another thing that my first
Speaker 2: partner taught me, the whole treating everyone with dignity and respect.
Speaker 2: And he taught me from the beginning. He said, listen,
Speaker 2: when it comes to informants, he said. Obviously every case
Speaker 2: is different, but you know everyone's going to tell you
Speaker 2: never fully trust and inform it. You can never fully
Speaker 2: trust form it. He goes, Really, he said, you know,
Speaker 2: this guy is taking me into this house with a
Speaker 2: bunch of people who will definitely kill me if they can.
Speaker 2: He goes, So, my whole life depends on this guy.
Speaker 2: He's vouching for me. I'm not supposed to trust this guy.
Speaker 2: And you know he taught and you treat them with
Speaker 2: respecting dignity again, just like a crook unless they give
Speaker 2: it not to you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we one hundred percent. I'm with you totally on that.
Speaker 1: So your your career and you're not the first officer
Speaker 1: of police officer or law enforcement officer all the last
Speaker 1: that's appeared on this show. But they create didn't end
Speaker 1: the why that I thought it within? What How did
Speaker 1: your career career end?
Speaker 2: My career ended with with very bad choices. Those were
Speaker 2: made by me. I had lost my way. Uh. You know,
Speaker 2: we started this conversation by talking about when you work
Speaker 2: under cover, sometimes you become that person that you're portraying.
Speaker 2: And and I had done that, you know, I was
Speaker 2: I was believing my own bullshit, right. I was buying
Speaker 2: into the ship that I was selling. I bought it myself,
Speaker 2: and I was I was running around to the uh
Speaker 2: you know, to the detriment of my family and my friends. Uh.
Speaker 2: I was running around in this world, this crime world, uh,
Speaker 2: and living my life starting to believe you know that
Speaker 2: I that I was selling nunziato. Uh. And that led
Speaker 2: to it led to excessive drinking, and it led to infidelity,
Speaker 2: uh with my wife. And unfortunately it was with a
Speaker 2: federal prosecutor who was working assigned to the cases these
Speaker 2: operations that I was doing, and when that came out, Uh,
Speaker 2: that was that was the end of both of our
Speaker 2: careers and a really hard fall for me because because
Speaker 2: of those circumstances, Uh, the government really turned on us
Speaker 2: and went after us. And you know, these these inappropriate
Speaker 2: relationships have been happening since the dawn of time between
Speaker 2: male and female cops and prosecutors and all that. But
Speaker 2: because of the nature of this, you know, they just
Speaker 2: they went, they went after us, went overboard. However, it
Speaker 2: sent me just spinning down into this world where I
Speaker 2: couldn't get out of it. I didn't think there was
Speaker 2: a way out. I was like, Wow, these people are
Speaker 2: going after me. And these are the same people, you
Speaker 2: know that I've been working with my whole career. I
Speaker 2: know they can get anyone they set their sights on.
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't they be able to get me? And I
Speaker 2: mean I went, Gary, When I tell you, I went,
Speaker 2: I probably lost fifty pounds in a matter of a
Speaker 2: few weeks, a total mental breakdown. Everything just that I
Speaker 2: had been holding inside it all came out and I
Speaker 2: ended up and I don't say this for a dramatic effect.
Speaker 2: But I ended up sitting in my bedroom paranoid, thinking
Speaker 2: every car driving by was you know, a government surveillance.
Speaker 2: And I ended up just trying to find a reason
Speaker 2: not to end it because I didn't see any way out.
Speaker 2: And you know, luckily, you know my faith, and you know,
Speaker 2: just the just slight glimmer, you know, chance that my
Speaker 2: family would you know, forgive me, and that carried me through.
Speaker 2: You know, I was able to make it through, and
Speaker 2: once I was cleared, I made the decision to retire.
Speaker 2: I had been on for twenty six years at that point.
Speaker 2: You know, So at that point, I I I had
Speaker 2: a buddy who was a homicide detective and he told me,
Speaker 2: he said, man, you got to write a book. He said,
Speaker 2: as a as a mental exercise, he was, you got
Speaker 2: to write a book. It was because I've never seen
Speaker 2: anyone go through the crazy shit you've gone through, and
Speaker 2: so it was it was a mental exercise. And I
Speaker 2: wrote the book and the book just did really well.
Speaker 2: And next thing, you know, my second career is in
Speaker 2: the entertainment industry.
Speaker 1: You know, I know the path you've walked. And when
Speaker 1: you said, like the paranoia when you feel like the
Speaker 1: people that were after you, the people that used to
Speaker 1: used to work with. It's confronting, isn't it. And I
Speaker 1: don't see you as a person crying poor or whatever,
Speaker 1: and I'm not either. You know, that's the game, that's
Speaker 1: the world that we've been involved in. We're set up
Speaker 1: to understand how it plays out. But you've gone from
Speaker 1: being in your mind the good guy doing everything, and
Speaker 1: that was your passion and then that was taken away
Speaker 1: from you. So I can understand how hard the path
Speaker 1: it was to dig your way out of it. And
Speaker 1: I think in your book you gave cutos to your
Speaker 1: wife that had a hard conversation with you when you're
Speaker 1: at your lowest point, and the fact that you managed
Speaker 1: to fix things up there. But yeah, public humiliation is
Speaker 1: never good. And when an organization you've given your heart
Speaker 1: and soul to turns on you, I can understand the pain.
Speaker 2: And brother, it was. I don't know how long your
Speaker 2: situation lasts, but mine was two and a half years.
Speaker 2: And I can tell you there don't put that much
Speaker 2: effort into a murder investigation as they put into trying
Speaker 2: to take down one of their own. Yeah, and so
Speaker 2: it was. And you know, as guys like us who
Speaker 2: are always used to being in control tope personalities to
Speaker 2: have no control and the unknown is the worst thing
Speaker 2: in the world. And that's what for the first time
Speaker 2: in my life, I had no control over what was
Speaker 2: going to happen to me and managrove me crazy.
Speaker 1: I understand exactly where you're coming from with it, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I share that pain. And you lose your tribe. I
Speaker 1: lost that many what I considered friends. Now I look
Speaker 1: back and think maybe it wasn't true friends, but the
Speaker 1: ones that were true friends have really stood up and
Speaker 1: had the delete. Yeah, ninety percent of most numbers in
Speaker 1: the phone because I never heard from anyone. I'm sure
Speaker 1: you went through that type of stuff.
Speaker 2: Isn't it funny? I had three phones. I had my
Speaker 2: government phone, my official one, my undercover phone, and my
Speaker 2: personal phone, and between three of them, there wasn't a
Speaker 2: minute when they weren't ringing off the hook. It was
Speaker 2: it was either informants or bad guys, or my colleagues
Speaker 2: or my supervisors or friends or whatever it was. And
Speaker 2: overnight they all went silent, and it was deafining. Silence
Speaker 2: was deafening.
Speaker 1: It's kind stop it. You're making me relive it too,
Speaker 1: right writing the book? Did you find that cathartic?
Speaker 2: Man? It was because what I did was one of
Speaker 2: my my supervisors at the end, he pulled me aside,
Speaker 2: and you know they all had my back. Man, they
Speaker 2: were great. He pulled me dound and he said, here's
Speaker 2: what I want you to do. He goes that copy
Speaker 2: over there, he goes, I want you to print out
Speaker 2: every report you've ever written. I just started printing them out,
Speaker 2: and that's what I used. You know, I read through
Speaker 2: them to help me write the book. And it was
Speaker 2: absolutely it was cathartic. And my case in particular, the
Speaker 2: two false allegations against me, what they accused me of
Speaker 2: were they were killers. Because the worst thing you can
Speaker 2: do to a cop is to accuse him of being untruthful, right,
Speaker 2: because it cures credibility. So the two accusation against me,
Speaker 2: where one was perjury on the stand and the other
Speaker 2: was false information in an application for the s visa
Speaker 2: for my informant. So when you when you accuse, all
Speaker 2: we have as police officers are a word on the stand.
Speaker 2: When you get accused of being a liar, it's it's
Speaker 2: a career end or it's it's a career killer, not
Speaker 2: only for your law enforcement career, but for any job
Speaker 2: you might want afterward. Right when someone googles you and
Speaker 2: they see an accusation of perjury, you're done. And all
Speaker 2: that made the paper and the internet and the news.
Speaker 2: But when I was found, when I was cleared, it's
Speaker 2: funny that that didn't make the paper. No One on
Speaker 2: no one wrote an article about me getting cleared. So
Speaker 2: so I've had to work extra hard. A guy approached
Speaker 2: me who owns a magazine here and he wanted me
Speaker 2: to be in the magazine. And I was like, I
Speaker 2: was like, dude, I've had my little encounter with the
Speaker 2: press and it hasn't been good, so I'm going to
Speaker 2: have to politely decline. And he said listen. He goes,
Speaker 2: what do you want the most? He goes, what do
Speaker 2: you want in life right now at this point the most?
Speaker 2: And I said, what I want the most is I
Speaker 2: don't want my son to ever google my name and
Speaker 2: see this bullshit that's been written about me. He said, well,
Speaker 2: then you have to bury that with good stuff. Bury it.
Speaker 2: So that's on the tenth page. So I said, okay,
Speaker 2: and I did it. He put me on the cover
Speaker 2: of his magazine and that kind of kickstarted this whole
Speaker 2: second career.
Speaker 1: Ill, full credit to you, because these are hard ride
Speaker 1: back and all the things that you touch on, I
Speaker 1: know how it hits. But look, I'm glad you found something.
Speaker 1: It sounds like you got some exciting things at foot
Speaker 1: in the in the future. You're talking of the TV show,
Speaker 1: You've got something coming up along those lines as well.
Speaker 2: So we the first season just finished. We filmed it
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four and it ran its course on
Speaker 2: Discovery and on Matt HBO Max or Max. It's called
Speaker 2: Operation Undercover. And I'm the host of the show. And
Speaker 2: what I do is I go around this country, around
Speaker 2: America to different cities, different police departments and sheriff departments,
Speaker 2: and we embed with these departments for a week with
Speaker 2: their undercover units. And they let us right in. And
Speaker 2: I mean when I say in bed like we are
Speaker 2: in the cars with them. When there's an undercover officer
Speaker 2: walking into a hotel room to buy, you know, a
Speaker 2: kilo of fentanyl from some cartel guy. We're right on
Speaker 2: the outside on the perimeter, watching and you know, we
Speaker 2: show it all and it all gets shown. And we
Speaker 2: did seven episodes in different states, all over the country,
Speaker 2: different police department, and we show the case. You know,
Speaker 2: these are these are faster cases because we're only there
Speaker 2: for a week, but we show from beginning to end,
Speaker 2: from when they're talking to the informant and he's bringing
Speaker 2: the undercover officer in and the drug buys or the
Speaker 2: gun buys, whatever happens to be, and then afterward when
Speaker 2: they kick the door in and take down the bad guy,
Speaker 2: we show the whole thing. So it's no recreations. This
Speaker 2: is real. It's fast paced. I mean it's no again,
Speaker 2: I don't like recreations. There's no it's all real. And
Speaker 2: and I'll tell you what, man, it is exciting as.
Speaker 1: How Yeah, no, it sounds it because like the undercover
Speaker 1: work is a world that even cops don't get to see,
Speaker 1: Like cops get to see up things other people don't see.
Speaker 1: But then that's at another level when you look at
Speaker 1: the the undercover stuff. So that that sounds sounds good.
Speaker 1: Second book in the in the planning as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah. After So the first book did really good. It
Speaker 2: was called Storefront Sting, an ATF agent's life undercover, and
Speaker 2: I basically tell my story like I've told it to you,
Speaker 2: and it was actually it was bought by a Hollywood company.
Speaker 2: Right now. These things take forever, but right now it's
Speaker 2: it's in front of Netflix and they're looking at it
Speaker 2: at possibly making it into a Netflix series with each
Speaker 2: storefront being a different season, you know, using different actors
Speaker 2: for different my different undercover teams and all. So we'll
Speaker 2: see if that happens. And you know, I'm right now,
Speaker 2: I'm waiting to hear from Discovery by season two for
Speaker 2: Operation Undercover.
Speaker 1: Exciting times and in my transition from policing into working
Speaker 1: in the media, it's good working with creative people too,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Sometimes policing can be a little bit negative.
Speaker 1: And then you step away and yeah, credit where credits due.
Speaker 1: If you're doing a good job, it's not it's you're
Speaker 1: not competing. It's creative people and they've got an energy
Speaker 1: that's sort of revitalizes. So that's I'm glad you found
Speaker 1: that path.
Speaker 2: Yeah man, I'm you know, I'm glad you got a
Speaker 2: second career as well, and you're in it. I don't
Speaker 2: know if you experienced the same thing I did what
Speaker 2: I found. Uh, what the entertainment industry. That downside is
Speaker 2: at least when I was when I was a cop,
Speaker 2: every two weeks my paycheck came in. And regardless I
Speaker 2: knew it, it is so hard getting people to write
Speaker 2: you a check in the entertainment industry, Like yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean if you see in your family from it, you
Speaker 2: really got to hustle, man.
Speaker 1: And I can see your experience when you're sign oh
Speaker 1: they're doing this. But until it's done, that it's done.
Speaker 1: Do you miss aspects of place in the adrenaline Russian
Speaker 1: aspects of the life that you lived?
Speaker 2: So that's crazy. The answer was definitely a yes. But
Speaker 2: fortunately last year I got to experience it again because
Speaker 2: I found myself right back in the mix with these
Speaker 2: cops through and undercover cases. I just I didn't have
Speaker 2: a gun, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm actually lou now I know exactly what your man.
Speaker 1: I'm a bit pissed off of you. Why can't we
Speaker 1: do and embedding the homicide de technique with homicide sands
Speaker 1: sands good, I just want to finish off with because
Speaker 1: we're struggling to find place here in Australia in different
Speaker 1: states and all that the UN demanded and they seems
Speaker 1: to be a real reluctance for people to join the place.
Speaker 1: What would you say to anyone that's considering a career
Speaker 1: in law enforcement.
Speaker 2: You know, we've had the same thing here in America. Right,
Speaker 2: It's been a tough five years for law enforcement in America.
Speaker 2: We've had we've had riots, we've had craziness. Recruiting is
Speaker 2: down to zero. You know, over here cops are not
Speaker 2: paid well. You know, if you want to if you
Speaker 2: want to be rich in this country, you don't go
Speaker 2: into law enforcement. And I'm sure it's that way in
Speaker 2: most countries, but here, here's what I would tell and
Speaker 2: I do tell when when young people ask me about
Speaker 2: going into law enforcement, I tell them this. I say, listen,
Speaker 2: if you want a career where you will really experience
Speaker 2: a true brotherhood. And when I say a brotherhood, I
Speaker 2: mean it doesn't matter. I'm not talking a male female,
Speaker 2: just a real brotherhood in a connection. I said, there's
Speaker 2: nothing other than possibly the military where you're going to
Speaker 2: experience that being part of a team and doing something
Speaker 2: that's fulfilling and you know, and actually making a difference
Speaker 2: and helping to protect the community. And you're going to
Speaker 2: also depending on where you want to go. There's so
Speaker 2: many avenues once you get into law enforcement. You know,
Speaker 2: if you want to if your thing is you want
Speaker 2: to be a dog handler, you want to work explosives, drugs, guns,
Speaker 2: white collar crime, counterfeiting. I mean, it's unlimited. You can
Speaker 2: go It's not like a regular job where you're pigeonhole.
Speaker 2: You can go into anything and it can be it
Speaker 2: can be fulfilling. My only word of caution or warning
Speaker 2: is that don't go into it if you think if
Speaker 2: you're doing it for accolades or appreciation, because you're not,
Speaker 2: that doesn't happen. But and the other thing is if
Speaker 2: if it is your choice and you do it, and
Speaker 2: I wouldn't tell anyone not to do it, build that
Speaker 2: resume while you're doing it, and think of the future,
Speaker 2: think of you know, the life life after, because you know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of good things you can go into
Speaker 2: if you're smart about it, opportunities you know after law enforcement,
Speaker 2: which I did.
Speaker 1: Not do, but it's good advice because it can. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're playing at the sharp end of a world and
Speaker 1: that can end pretty quickly in dramatic circumstances, and you
Speaker 1: should look what you've got the outside of law enforcement.
Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed this chat that gets me itchy feet
Speaker 1: and wants me to be a cop again here in
Speaker 1: the stories, and I love the book. And I get
Speaker 1: the shits when I read too many cop books because
Speaker 1: it makes me want to get back into doing what
Speaker 1: I do or what I did, I should say, so
Speaker 1: I haven't even let it go, but I want to
Speaker 1: thank you for the service to the community. And you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think we've mentioned this, but part of your career,
Speaker 1: and I know when it ends not in the way
Speaker 1: you expect that sometimes you think, well, what good have
Speaker 1: I done? I think in the operations you were involved
Speaker 1: in lou there was over a thousand guns taken off
Speaker 1: the street, and not to mention all the drugs and
Speaker 1: everything else. You've made a difference, mate, It's a big.
Speaker 2: Difference, man. I appreciate Thank you for those words. Brother.
Speaker 3: Thanks Will you take care of good luck with the future.
Speaker 2: God bless you.
Speaker 3: Sheeer is all right.