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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Lou Velosi,

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Speaker 1: a former US federal agent with the ATF who spent

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Speaker 1: over two decades working deep undercover. Lou so much to

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Speaker 1: talk about. I'm going to throw one thing out that

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Speaker 1: I heard on the podcast. I think it was on

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Speaker 1: the real one, but you talked about going into a

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Speaker 1: bikie clubhouse. I worked gangs for a long time, so

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Speaker 1: I know the environment you're talking about. That you went

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Speaker 1: into a bikie clubhouse on an announced to make some connections.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to just tell us through that story,

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Speaker 1: because it blew me away, the fact that you went

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Speaker 1: in there and how you manage yourself in that environment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. You know, it was very early in

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Speaker 2: my undercover career. It was actually the first kind of

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Speaker 2: I guess what you would call organized crime case I

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Speaker 2: got pulled into. You know, I was only doing up

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Speaker 2: to that point, I had only done those back alley

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Speaker 2: you know, drug deals and gun deals that we talked about.

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Speaker 2: So and the only reason I got called into this

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Speaker 2: was I was the only agent in my field division,

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Speaker 2: the only other agent that had a motorcycle license. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't because of any skill or anything I had. I

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Speaker 2: really knew nothing about outlaw bakers, you know. I didn't

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Speaker 2: grow up in that environment, huge thing up in New York.

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Speaker 2: And so there was an undercover agent who was already

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Speaker 2: somewhat embedded with this gang and his partner, and in

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Speaker 2: a lot of these cases, very important they have a

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Speaker 2: partner just for a lot of reasons. His partner was

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Speaker 2: a local cop who was just on the task force,

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Speaker 2: and when his department saw they were supposed to go

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Speaker 2: with this gang down to a bike round at Daytona,

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Speaker 2: which is a big bike rally and all that, and

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Speaker 2: this was in Atlanta, Georgia. His department were like, listen,

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Speaker 2: we didn't really sign up for all this. We're going

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Speaker 2: to pull our guy out this. We're getting in a

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Speaker 2: little bit over his head, a little bit yeah, a

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Speaker 2: little bit deep. So ATF, you know, the ATF agent

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Speaker 2: in there needed a partner, so I got the all again.

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Speaker 2: The only reason was I had a motorcycle license. And

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Speaker 2: the only reason I had a motorcycle license was when

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Speaker 2: I was a kid, like I don't know, maybe seventeen

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Speaker 2: or eighteen years old, I had a Yamaha for like

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Speaker 2: three months.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: I was never any good at riding a motorcycle or

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Speaker 2: anything like that, and it never been on a Harley.

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Speaker 2: So but I never said no. So when they asked me,

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Speaker 2: I said, I'm in. Let's go. So uh you know,

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Speaker 2: when I got there, I met the informants, these two

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Speaker 2: huge biker guys, the undercover, and they gave me. They

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Speaker 2: gave me this chopper, you know, one of them old

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Speaker 2: kickstart shovel head Harley's. I didn't I couldn't figure out

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Speaker 2: how to start it, let alone ride it. Or so

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Speaker 2: they were like, hey, let's go follow us. And you know,

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Speaker 2: driving through the north where North Georgia, driving into Atlanta,

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Speaker 2: and it was kind of misty, a little bit of

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Speaker 2: rain coming down, and these guys drive real fast and

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to follow them, you know, the head like

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Speaker 2: the all I can say, our tail light's getting farther

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Speaker 2: and farther away. And I go around a curve and

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Speaker 2: I dropped the bike end up in a ditch. And

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Speaker 2: you know if you heard me tell the story before,

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Speaker 2: but that I'm in the ditch and the bike's still

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Speaker 2: the bike's still on everything, mirrors are all bent and everything.

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Speaker 2: And they finally realize I'm not behind him anymore. And

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Speaker 2: they come back and the big informant says to the

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Speaker 2: undercoverage and goes, you want us to bring this fucking

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Speaker 2: guy into the Outlaws clubhouse. He can't even ride a motorcycle.

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Speaker 2: And when I when I as bad as I was

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Speaker 2: hurting from the fall, when I heard him say that,

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Speaker 2: I was like, no, help me pick this bike up

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Speaker 2: and bend everything back as best we could. It was

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Speaker 2: still driveable, and so we went to this clubhouse. And

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Speaker 2: when I walked in, it was it was a shock

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Speaker 2: for me. You know. I again, I didn't have any experience.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about these guys. It was just

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Speaker 2: an evil place. And I just got a really bad

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Speaker 2: feeling in there. And you know, there's these guys and

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Speaker 2: they're just some nasty fellas. I mean, you guys, you

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Speaker 2: got them over there. You know, they're some bad guys.

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Speaker 1: Man.

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Speaker 2: And I'm in there and I realize, you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't know how to act. I don't know anything about

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Speaker 2: these guys. So you know, I'm going to listen to

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Speaker 2: my partner, my old my old partner, my first partner.

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut for a while.

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Speaker 2: And I did. I just I just got I was

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Speaker 2: a wallflower, man. I just stood against the wall, and uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, my my my new partner there is you know,

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Speaker 2: he's interacting with these guys and they're kissing and hugging

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Speaker 2: and drinking and all that, and I, you know, I

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Speaker 2: just stood there, man, and I watched. I watched how

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Speaker 2: these guys carried themselves, how they handled themselves. And I

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Speaker 2: could tell right away who the president was by the

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Speaker 2: way he was being treated and all. And uh, after

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Speaker 2: probably close to forty five minutes of not saying a

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Speaker 2: word and just watching, I made the decision to approach

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Speaker 2: the president. I went up to the president. You know,

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Speaker 2: like I said before, I was real big back then,

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Speaker 2: and I you know, so I figured, you know, at

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Speaker 2: least I got something to offer. I'm a big goon,

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Speaker 2: at least young. And I said to the President, sir,

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Speaker 2: you know, you know, this is my name, and this

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Speaker 2: is my first time here. I'm with SO and so.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't I don't know your your rules,

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Speaker 2: I don't know your you know your culture, and I

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Speaker 2: certainly don't want to offend you or anybody else. I

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Speaker 2: just want to learn from you guys because I like

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Speaker 2: what I see and I want to become one of

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Speaker 2: you guys someday. And man, he just ate that up

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Speaker 2: because he's looking at he's just looking at this goon,

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Speaker 2: this big goon that that he can mold, you know,

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Speaker 2: and make you lose, because that's what they do, They

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Speaker 2: use people, and making the one of his own. And

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Speaker 2: from that point he just he took a lake into

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Speaker 2: me and took me under his wing. And I learned

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Speaker 2: such a valuable lesson that day for my future long

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Speaker 2: term operations. You know, shut up, read the room right,

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Speaker 2: and you know, talk very strategically to the right people. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Look, I wanted to unpack that and get you to

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Speaker 1: tell that story again because when you started telling the

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Speaker 1: story that you had a bike license, like, okay, that's

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Speaker 1: not going to make you look like you've been born

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Speaker 1: on the Harley Davidson be able to rock up to

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Speaker 1: a clubhouse and look, look the part and act the part.

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Speaker 1: So I was laughing with you, but also at you,

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Speaker 1: thinking who the hell's this bloke think he is? He's

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Speaker 1: going to pull this one off? Full cu thos to

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Speaker 1: you after you dropped the bike to get back on there.

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Speaker 1: But I understand when your pride's being insulted sometimes you

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Speaker 1: just got to suck it in. But I was really curious.

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Speaker 1: I was really because and if you want to talk

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Speaker 1: bikes with legitimate bikes are going to catch out within

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Speaker 1: saying halla if you don't know your way around the Harley.

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Speaker 1: But the other thing is I was really curious knowing

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Speaker 1: the atmosphere, and you described it very well. What goes

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Speaker 1: on in the clubhouse. It has a sense of menace

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Speaker 1: about it. The moment you set foot in there, how

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Speaker 1: you handle it. And it was a fascinating way that okay,

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Speaker 1: and I really got an insight into the way that

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Speaker 1: you would operate. Like you could have gone in there

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Speaker 1: and tried to talk as a tough guy and they

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Speaker 1: would have smelt you out straight straight away and think

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Speaker 1: how that this is not adding up? But the approach

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Speaker 1: you had seemed to just work perfectly for you.

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Speaker 2: You know, I didn't like it. I never liked the

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Speaker 2: biker stuff. I only did two of those, which was

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Speaker 2: which was two more than I wanted to do. I

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Speaker 2: ended up after the Outlaws in Atlanta, I ended up

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Speaker 2: going to California maybe maybe three or four years later

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Speaker 2: and on a Hell's Angels, working under cover on a

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Speaker 2: Hell's Angels out of San Diego case. And I tell

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Speaker 2: you I never I never really got much better on

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Speaker 2: a motorcycle. And just to bring in the story full circle,

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Speaker 2: I actually, you know, I had an undercover motorcycle for

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Speaker 2: most of my career, and you know then I just

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Speaker 2: I kind of got into it a little bit, and

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Speaker 2: I probably owned maybe six or seven Harley's on personal bikes,

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Speaker 2: and but I never it just wasn't me. I never

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Speaker 2: was a good motorcycle rider. In about about five years ago,

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Speaker 2: we were going on a family vacation. I hadn't started

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Speaker 2: my bike in probably three or four months, so I said,

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Speaker 2: you know what, let me just let me just ride

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Speaker 2: the bike around the neighborhood just to charge the battery.

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Speaker 2: And so I just drove around my neighborhood and it

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Speaker 2: had rained like the day before, and I was I

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Speaker 2: couldn't have been going more in two or three miles

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Speaker 2: per hour. I mean I was early moving, just taking

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Speaker 2: a turn. I went over some leaves. I didn't realize

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Speaker 2: they were wet underneath, and the bike went out and

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Speaker 2: I fell. I dumped the bike again. And I saw

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Speaker 2: that bike as soon as we got back from vacation,

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Speaker 2: and I've never been on one since.

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Speaker 3: So your bike riding days, Yeah, that was it.

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Speaker 1: That's a pretty It's a pretty easy way to make

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Speaker 1: a fool of yourself when you think you're sitting pretty

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Speaker 1: looking cool, And yeah, you shouldn't have gone over those leaves.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you pull up and just drop the bike

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Speaker 1: and can't pick it up. But all these things that

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Speaker 1: can happen dealing with the pressure. There was another interesting

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Speaker 1: thing I've heard you say in interviews that you would

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Speaker 1: quite often go into boxing gyms or jiu jitsu and

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Speaker 1: get lit up by some some boxer, or you get

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Speaker 1: grappled to the ground and mauled by someone that's a

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Speaker 1: little bit better. The way that you were talking about it,

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, well, the pressure that you feel when

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Speaker 1: you're getting lit up by someone in the boxing ring

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Speaker 1: that's better than you and you still got two minutes

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Speaker 1: ago of a three minute round. That's the type of

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Speaker 1: pressure you need to be able to deal with when

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Speaker 1: you're you're undercovering the pressure spots. Is that something that

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Speaker 1: you would just work for you? Finding pressure, dealing with

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Speaker 1: pressure that way, that was.

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Speaker 2: About the only thing that worked for me. And it's funny,

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Speaker 2: very similar feeling to me to walk into a boxing

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Speaker 2: gym in some strange city to Spa was a very

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Speaker 2: similar feeling as walking into that outlaw biker clubhouse, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of enemy territory. You know, no one

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Speaker 2: knows you, but you know, a big guy walking into

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Speaker 2: a boxing gym, everyone's going to be looking at you.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're getting a ring and it is amazing,

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Speaker 2: you know, when you when you are not a professional

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Speaker 2: fighter and you get into a ring with a pro,

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Speaker 2: you know, even I'm just talking about these local pros

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Speaker 2: who just fight club like, you know, the skill difference

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Speaker 2: is just amazing.

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Speaker 3: And your up block at Christmas str Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: And if they ninety nine percent of them are cool,

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Speaker 2: you know, but you know there's always one. Sometimes it

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Speaker 2: goes overboard, but but it to me, it was it

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Speaker 2: was a mental exercise as much as it was physical exercise,

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Speaker 2: just to keep me on my toes and keep that

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Speaker 2: uh you know, that that sense of being uncomfortable, you know,

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Speaker 2: getting comfortable with being in an uncomfortable situation, whether it's

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Speaker 2: you know, whether you're someone's taking your back on the

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Speaker 2: mat in jiu jitsu, you know, or some guys just

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Speaker 2: just sending body shots into you, you know, in a

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Speaker 2: in a boxing ring, you know, to be able to

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Speaker 2: breathe and still keep your head and be comfortable in

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Speaker 2: those kind of situations. So to me, that that was

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Speaker 2: how I did a lot of guys, you know, would

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Speaker 2: just go out and drink their asses off, but that

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Speaker 2: that worked. Not that I didn't do that as well,

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Speaker 2: but that worked better for me to keep me mentally

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Speaker 2: sound during these things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was fascinated that it came up in conversation

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Speaker 1: with you, and I just I could really relate to

241
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Speaker 1: it because it was a way of sort of separating.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I also sometimes find have a drink and

243
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Speaker 1: forget about things, but then you wake up the next

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Speaker 1: day's it hasn't got it got any better. So, yeah, challenging,

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Speaker 1: challenging yourself there, And yeah, when you're walking in and

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Speaker 1: you would you would have walked in the court. I

247
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Speaker 1: always got nervous before I walked in the court. Didn't

248
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Speaker 1: matter that you weren't hiding anything. You knew you were

249
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Speaker 1: going to be carved up and carved up very publicly.

250
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Speaker 1: That you get a custom to that pressure that you're

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Speaker 1: comfortable being uncomfortable. And I could really relate to relate

252
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Speaker 1: to that, And it's just it's a good way. And

253
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Speaker 1: there's other ways you could find that. But let's let's

254
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Speaker 1: talk about the storefront sting, because it's a strategy that

255
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Speaker 1: you you became an expert on, like across the country.

256
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Speaker 1: And if I'm not wrong, it's yeah, the amount of

257
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Speaker 1: guns and drugs you got off the street from these

258
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Speaker 1: operations known there's a store storefront stink.

259
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was you know, I start out by saying,

260
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Speaker 2: we did not invent the storefront you know concept that

261
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,480
Speaker 2: you know, the ny PD and LAPD they were doing

262
00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,040
Speaker 2: these things back in the sixties and seventies, but for

263
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Speaker 2: the most part, they were just doing and they were

264
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:34,240
Speaker 2: trying to disrupt these fencing operations stolen goods, you know,

265
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Speaker 2: so they would do little pawn shop type places and

266
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Speaker 2: to take in stolen merchandise. For the most part, we

267
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Speaker 2: took that concept and just blew it up and made

268
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Speaker 2: it bigger and bigger. And you know, I fell into

269
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Speaker 2: that kind of the same way, you know, I fell

270
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Speaker 2: into that bike case. I just got a phone call

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Speaker 2: from an agent who in another office, who said, hey, man,

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Speaker 2: would you uh you know, we have a we're starting

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Speaker 2: up this storefront operation. It's going to be a tattoo shop.

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Speaker 2: We're doing it in conjunction with the local Sheriff's department.

275
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Speaker 2: We need an undercover. Would you do the undercover? I

276
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Speaker 2: said absolutely, I'll be there tomorrow. And I didn't even

277
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Speaker 2: I didn't really even know what a storefront was. So

278
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Speaker 2: I went up there and I saw the setup they

279
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Speaker 2: had and it was phenomenal. Man. It was in a

280
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Speaker 2: really bad neighborhood, very ghetto, and it was a it

281
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Speaker 2: was a ghetto tattoo shop like it was the kind

282
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Speaker 2: of place you wouldn't want to get a tattoo for

283
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Speaker 2: the most part. And the informant was the tattoo artist,

284
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Speaker 2: and he was trying to stay out of prison and

285
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Speaker 2: he had already in prison. He had tattooed everybody, so

286
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Speaker 2: he knew the players. He knew everybody. And his deal

287
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Speaker 2: with you know, with the police and with ATF was

288
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,320
Speaker 2: he was going to work off his charges by doing

289
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,040
Speaker 2: this case. So he was just going to do the

290
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,080
Speaker 2: tattoos and bring the bad guys in and it was

291
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Speaker 2: my job in my undercover team to engage them. And

292
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Speaker 2: it was a gang ridden place, gangs everywhere, and you know,

293
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Speaker 2: we were to buy the guns, buy the drugs, stolen cars,

294
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Speaker 2: whatever they were doing, and and you know, hopefully take

295
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Speaker 2: some of these gangs down. So we started and I

296
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:38,320
Speaker 2: was the manager of this place, and we had, you know,

297
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,240
Speaker 2: we had the tattoo area with the chair and then

298
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Speaker 2: there was just like an area where we sold paraphernalia

299
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Speaker 2: and all the flash on the wall and rolling papers

300
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Speaker 2: and all that stuff. And I didn't really have high

301
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,840
Speaker 2: expected I didn't really know what to expect. And you know,

302
00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:02,680
Speaker 2: as they started in, you know that people get tattoos,

303
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 2: and we started just having conversations. They had a lot

304
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,159
Speaker 2: of good ideas. The Sheriff's department. They said, we're going

305
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:16,880
Speaker 2: to put out a clear box of sharpiees markers and

306
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,320
Speaker 2: the walls were all white, right, they didn't. They just

307
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,360
Speaker 2: painted all the walls white. They said, we're gonna tell

308
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Speaker 2: these guys they can go ahead and they can tag

309
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Speaker 2: all the walls whatever they want, you know, just tell

310
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Speaker 2: them no hateing, keep it sill. So we told that

311
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Speaker 2: and they started tagging the walls and doing all their

312
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 2: gang signs and stuff. And you know, the whole no

313
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Speaker 2: hating thing. That lasted about ten minutes, right, and there's

314
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Speaker 2: their fin me veiled threats and you know, murder threats

315
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Speaker 2: and all that, and you know, we actually cut all

316
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,399
Speaker 2: that out as evidence, all the drywall at the end

317
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,560
Speaker 2: of the case. But we told these guys when they

318
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,879
Speaker 2: would come in, listen, this is neutral territory. Everybody's welcome here.

319
00:17:54,960 --> 00:18:00,199
Speaker 2: No beefing when you're in here. It's neutral. So it

320
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,199
Speaker 2: just started out real small. You know, they would come

321
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Speaker 2: in and they you know, everyone was smoking weed. And

322
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,399
Speaker 2: there the informant was smoking weed. He wasn't supposed to.

323
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Speaker 2: All the everyone who was in there was smoking weed

324
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,960
Speaker 2: except for us. But you know, there was no ventilation,

325
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,520
Speaker 2: there was no I mean, so we were probably high

326
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 2: the whole time, I'm sure. And we just started making

327
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 2: conversation with these guys and inevitably, you know, these guys

328
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 2: sell drugs and guns, and it came up and I

329
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:35,000
Speaker 2: let them know that. My side hustle was I had

330
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Speaker 2: a moving truck, which we really did, and I would

331
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,320
Speaker 2: move people, you know, from place to place. But I

332
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,679
Speaker 2: would use that truck when I got enough guns that

333
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,879
Speaker 2: I would sell in New York. And I don't know

334
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 2: what you know about you know, I don't know how

335
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,479
Speaker 2: it works in Australia. But you know, every state has

336
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,439
Speaker 2: different gun laws here. So it's the whole supplied demand graph, right,

337
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 2: So in states like New York where the normal person

338
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,159
Speaker 2: can't get a gun and carry it, okay, and in

339
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,840
Speaker 2: places down south here Georgia, Carolinas, anyone can buy a

340
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,480
Speaker 2: gun and carry it. So that that gun down here

341
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,320
Speaker 2: that you can buy for three hundred bucks, is you

342
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 2: can sell in New York for two thousand bucks on

343
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,640
Speaker 2: the streets. So gun trafficking is a real thing, very

344
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 2: very common. So I told them, listen, once I get

345
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,560
Speaker 2: like two three hundred guns, I just I fill that

346
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,480
Speaker 2: truck with furniture and I'll move a family from Atlanta

347
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,639
Speaker 2: to New York and I just put all the guns,

348
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,920
Speaker 2: hide them into furniture. Even if I get pulled over,

349
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,880
Speaker 2: I say, man, I'm just moving furniture. You know, it's

350
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,240
Speaker 2: not my stuff. And these guys love that. They were

351
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,920
Speaker 2: like right on. So that was my excuse to keep

352
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 2: buying guns. So next thing I knew, man, we are

353
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,200
Speaker 2: asking for more money. We don't even have enough buy

354
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 2: money we got. We're buying tens of thousands of X

355
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 2: SEE pills, and we're buying machine guns, sought off shotguns,

356
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:12,200
Speaker 2: stolen guns, every you name it, we're buying it, grenades,

357
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 2: everything they're bringing in, you know, every drug known to mankind.

358
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 2: And this thing is just spider webbing and without you know,

359
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,440
Speaker 2: once the word got out in the street, we didn't

360
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,920
Speaker 2: even have to do that much. They were just coming

361
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,719
Speaker 2: to us, and we're having to be strategic with spending

362
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,679
Speaker 2: money because we only want to spend on you know,

363
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,879
Speaker 2: get the most bang for the buck, we're actually turning

364
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:44,359
Speaker 2: we're turning people away. And so the success, you know,

365
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 2: twelve months later, it was a twelve month operation. We

366
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,120
Speaker 2: had purchased four hundred and thirty crime guns.

367
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 3: Wow.

368
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Speaker 2: And this is a small city. This is Augusta, Georgia,

369
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 2: not a huge city. And you know drug I mean,

370
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,719
Speaker 2: I can't even tell you how much drugs. But we

371
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 2: had one hundred defendants, one hundred federal defense now about

372
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 2: I think we had sixty five federal defendants in about

373
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 2: thirty five state defense. And you know, these are these

374
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 2: are numbers that AHTF wasn't used to seeing. It was

375
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 2: a real big it was a big deal.

376
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,359
Speaker 1: As they're coming in, you're recording all the transactions and

377
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:23,400
Speaker 1: keeping the records.

378
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,159
Speaker 3: It's and it's basically you've you've got them jammed up

379
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Speaker 3: big time.

380
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 2: Yep.

381
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,680
Speaker 1: If if that they've come in there, they've they've come

382
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 1: into your trap and it's going to be very hard

383
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 1: for them to uh wiggle their way out of that

384
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,120
Speaker 1: in the court situation.

385
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say it was entrapment

386
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,159
Speaker 2: or anything else when you're on camera driving up in

387
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 2: your car, walking through the door, pulling a gun out

388
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 2: of your waist and selling it.

389
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:47,160
Speaker 1: Right.

390
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 2: It's a tough one to defend. That's why none of

391
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 2: those cases ever want to trial. The hardest part in

392
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 2: that type operation, we found out was identifying everybody right, okay.

393
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 3: Uh.

394
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 2: They would never drive up in a car that registered

395
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,879
Speaker 2: to them. It'd be registered to some girl and or

396
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: be a rental and they would be rented by somebody else,

397
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: some girl or whatever it was. They'd never give you

398
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,719
Speaker 2: a real name, you know, a lot of times they

399
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 2: were just using burner phone. So we'd get real creative

400
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 2: to identify these guys. Sometimes we would have to have

401
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 2: cover teams follow them and you know, try and put

402
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 2: them to bed whatever it was, you know, we did.

403
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 2: We did other creative things like giveaways. We found that

404
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 2: these guys never wanted to give out their real name

405
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 2: or their real number. But if you offered them something free,

406
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 2: the possibility of a free television or or you know,

407
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 2: a three hundred dollars cash prize or something, they would

408
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 2: fill out the little form and they would put a

409
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 2: real phone number or real name or some way to

410
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 2: get a hold of them in case they won. And

411
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 2: I would tell these guys, listen, just fold it at

412
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 2: the corner and I'll make sure I pick you one

413
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 2: because I'm the one who picks the winning So so

414
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 2: we did that a lot, and we would actually give

415
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,239
Speaker 2: TVs away whatever it was to keep it real. But

416
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 2: that's and even if they didn't put anything real down,

417
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 2: we would even have the prints lifted from the little

418
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 2: slip they filled out when they dropped it in. So

419
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: we got creative.

420
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: I love the creative side of it, like law enforcement,

421
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: and I think that's a part of law enforcement people

422
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: see as black and white, but the creative thinking like that.

423
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: I'm getting excited just thinking of all the opportunities where

424
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: you've got people coming in like that and the things

425
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 1: that you could do. One of the things that you

426
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: talk about in the book, and you use a number

427
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: of examples, but just give a sense of it when

428
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: you talk street theater, when you've got to get these

429
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 1: blokes to the people that you're trying to bring in,

430
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: get them to accept you are the genuine bad guys.

431
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: Street theater is my favorite aspect of my career.

432
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 3: I reckon it would be a bit of fun.

433
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 2: The most fun I ever had my whole career was

434
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: doing street theater. And you know, I again, I take

435
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 2: no cared. I didn't invent it was gays before for

436
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 2: me who were doing it, But basically the principal was

437
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 2: and we did it for several reasons, but the main

438
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: reasons we were doing it the street theater in these

439
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 2: storefronts was to show the bad guys, you know, in

440
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 2: this community we were in that we were moving the product, right,

441
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: because who just keeps buying drugs and keeps buying guns

442
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: like NonStop cops. Okay, you wanted to show them that,

443
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 2: you know, we had on our own hustle and ongoing operation.

444
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 2: You know, we were buying this stuff and we were

445
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: selling you know, whatever happened to be, the guns and

446
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 2: the drugs, stolen cars, whatever. So we would do what

447
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 2: we called street theater operations where we would hire Usually

448
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: we would hire one of the local gangs we were

449
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 2: dealing with as security for the deal, and then we

450
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 2: would call in other undercover agents from different cities who

451
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 2: wouldn't be known there to come in and we would

452
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,199
Speaker 2: do a deal, a fake deal between ourselves. So I

453
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: would for instance, I in this one instance where we

454
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 2: did a store for an operation that was a military

455
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: surplus store with a shooting a three lane three lane

456
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: shooting range attached to it. It's one of my favorite ones.

457
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 2: So we had these gangsters coming in and they could

458
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: blast their guns, convicted felons with our guns, shooting in

459
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: our in our shooting. So this local, a local street

460
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 2: gang we were dealing with. I told these guys we

461
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: had been buying a bunch of guns off these guys,

462
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 2: and I said, listen, I have to deal with this

463
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 2: crew out of Miami. I don't know them, and they're

464
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 2: going to come in here and we're selling them a

465
00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 2: bunch of machine guns. I need I need security. Can

466
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: you you know? Can you can? I hire you for

467
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: to day? And they were like, that's what we do, right,

468
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: And I never told I would never tell any of

469
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 2: them to bring your gun. I would just hire that.

470
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 2: I'd say this, I'll give you a couple hundred bucks,

471
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 2: whatever it was. And but I would always have to

472
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 2: give them very specific instructions. Don't do anything unless I

473
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: say to do something. Right, you don't have to do anything,

474
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 2: just stand there, because I didn't want any of these

475
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 2: guys getting over sell this and pulling guns. And you

476
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: know what I mean, I can say that that, yeah,

477
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: this is all fake. So so these guys would show up.

478
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: We would never set the deal too early because it

479
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: was always hard to get them to show up on time.

480
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 2: They would show up and we would have all this

481
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: scripted and worked out before with the undercovers. So in

482
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 2: this particular deal, we had this this incredible guy named

483
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 2: Richie zaias a Cuban Cuban guy out of South Florida

484
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 2: showed up with this big bear, this huge guy who

485
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: look like a pirate on steroids, hair and all that.

486
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: That was his bodyguard. And we were selling them ten

487
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 2: machine guns. And uh, you know, they show up and

488
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 2: we would do that. I would like be on the

489
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 2: phone and you know, the guys. I would set these

490
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: guys up around around the business. I'd have two guys

491
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 2: at the door, one guy post you know, next to

492
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: me at the counter, you know, maybe one guy at

493
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: the other side of the business. And I would tell

494
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 2: them again, listen, don't do shit unless I say to

495
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: do shit please, all easy money. So so so the

496
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: the fake bad guys would show up in like a

497
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: you know, a panel van and get out and you

498
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: know they always you know, be looking badass, you know, incredible,

499
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: And I just specifically remember this one. So much because

500
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 2: because Richie was wearing these these fake Nike shoes that

501
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 2: had Tony Montana on them, you know, the from the

502
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 2: movie Scarface, and uh, you know, he just heated crazy hair.

503
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: It's just a good look. And so they walk in

504
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 2: to the business and uh, you know, we kind of

505
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: interact in a non friendly way, and uh, I break

506
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: out one of the machine guns, and he calls a

507
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 2: big guy over and he says, hey man, I told him.

508
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: I said, listen, we got a place you can shoot

509
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 2: it right there. So he tells, you know, his partner there,

510
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 2: hey man, you know, take that gun in there and

511
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: make sure it's a machine gun. So I send one

512
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 2: of you know, one of the gang members to go

513
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 2: in there too, and and you know, the ATF agent

514
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: undercover goes in there and blast the machine gun off,

515
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 2: and you know art, you know, the gang members like

516
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: holy shit, right, and uh yes, oh yeah. So we

517
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: come back and uh, you know, the big guy goes

518
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: out and gets a gets a suitcase full of money,

519
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 2: brings it in. We do the deal, They take the

520
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: machine guns and leave. And I always when they would

521
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: give me the suit some money, I would always turn

522
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 2: to one of my partners and say, hey, man, go

523
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 2: take this to the spot, and he would leave with

524
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: the money because I never wanted that crew to know

525
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: I had a suitcase of money there because they would

526
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 2: rob me. You know, there's no on thieves. Even though

527
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 2: I hired them, you know, they'll still put a gun

528
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: on my face and rob me.

529
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,719
Speaker 1: That's where you're vulnerable throughout, like all the stages of

530
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: your every time you're dealing with the bad guys at

531
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: you're targeting, you're a potential victim as well. So you've

532
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: gotta have that, yeah, like whether are they going to

533
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: do a drug grip on you or if you've got

534
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: all these guns stored here on that way, we can

535
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: get that.

536
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: And always that's why we always let these dudes know.

537
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 2: Would we would show our guns all the time and

538
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: let them know that we had guns because we knew

539
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: they did because there is no honor among thieves. And

540
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: no matter how friendly they were with you. You know,

541
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: we had guys coming into the storefronts that we would

542
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: do a deal with them a drug. They would come

543
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: back that night and burglarize our place. I mean we'd

544
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: recognize and we could see him on the security cameras.

545
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: We just dealt with them and they break in at

546
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: night and steal all our shit, so you know, and

547
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: you know, as an undercover, your fear is not it's not, oh,

548
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: they're gonna they're going to find out that I'm a cop.

549
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 2: That's not the figure because if they find out you're

550
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: a fed any of these organizations, they're just going to

551
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 2: put as much distance between themselves and you as they can.

552
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 2: They don't want to draw any heat on themselves at

553
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: the organization. That's not the fear. The fear is that

554
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 2: next deal is going to be a rip and they're

555
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: going to kill you. They know you're showing up to buy,

556
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: you know, a ki low and you're showing up with

557
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: fifteen thousand dollars. So this time, even though they've dealt

558
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: with you four times already, on the fifth time, they're

559
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: gonna shoot you and take your money. That's the fear.

560
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: That that would be the real real risk with it

561
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: when you do take them down on those sting operations.

562
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: And yeah, that was your career, A large portion of

563
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: your your career was built on that, and you became

564
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: an expert and was going across the country advising other people.

565
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: When you do take them down, there was one and

566
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: I talk about this, and this is more talking on

567
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: the emotional level from being an undercover agent when you

568
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: do take them down a lot of people. I would

569
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: imagine you've built strong relationships with the long you're in there,

570
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: and you seem to be a guy that understands human nature,

571
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: and I dare say because of the person you are,

572
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: but the nature of the work. There was one particular

573
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: one that you mentioned in the book where you had

574
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: to go in and front the bloke, and a bloke

575
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: that in fact invited you out I think for his

576
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: fortieth birthday to celebrate because he trusted you, of all

577
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: people to trust, and couldn't trust his trust his friends,

578
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: and you were there when he got taken down and

579
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: had to front him. Do you want to tell people

580
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: about what happened there?

581
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a tough one. It was in Chicago.

582
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: He was a member of the Outlaws motorcycle gang and

583
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: he was also a member of UH, an Italian mafia

584
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: family Lisaro in Chicago. They called the outfit, that's what

585
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: they call the mafia, the Italian mafia. So they figured

586
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: they had figured this was a joint case of that

587
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,239
Speaker 2: atf and the FBI, that UH the the mafia was

588
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: hiring the bikers to do some of their dirty work,

589
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: and this guy had done a bombing, a big bombing.

590
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: It all revolved around these video poker machines that the

591
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: mafia was making all the bar owners and restaurant owners

592
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: put in their businesses, and if you didn't want to

593
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: play ball and put their machines in there, they'd blow

594
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: your place up. So so this guy was one of

595
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: those guys who and I'm sure you've run across these

596
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: kind of guys in your career. No one could no

597
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: one could get this guy. He was really smart. He

598
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: was not a convicted felon, uh and he there was

599
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: no crime he wasn't into. He was just really smart

600
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: about it. And the FBI had sent in three informants

601
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 2: to get him, two of them were dirty cops, childhood friends,

602
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: and he sniffed them all out. He was just a

603
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: sharp guy. So I went in cold on this. It

604
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 2: was just a really strange case. I went in as

605
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: my covers. I was a kind of a down and

606
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: out MMA fighter up and I was just moved to Chicago.

607
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: And it took months and months and months to get

608
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 2: in with this guy and get his trust when I

609
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: finally did, the case kind of picked up. I was

610
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 2: buying stolen merchandise from him. One of his many crimes.

611
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 2: He was fencing stolen electronics, flat screen TVs, surround sound systems.

612
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: And I don't mean just I mean they were knocking

613
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: off eighteen wheks, like in these deals where the driver

614
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 2: would get out and walk away and they would get

615
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: in and mafia type deals. So so I, you know,

616
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 2: I started buying that from him, and then the case

617
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 2: went along very well. Like like you mentioned, he called

618
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: me out one night, had me out to a strip

619
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: joint and he sits down and he looks me in

620
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: the eye and he tells me listen. He was, I

621
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: can't trust the people I grew up with, you know,

622
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 2: I can't trust the people in my neighborhood that I

623
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: that I grew up with. He said, so, I really

624
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: appreciate your friendship. And we did a toast and he goes,

625
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 2: it's my fortieth birthday. I didn't even know that. And

626
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 2: and and again I'm thinking to myself, because you know,

627
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: I met his wife, I met his kid, and he

628
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 2: was a good father. He had like a ten year

629
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: old kid, And I'm thinking, man, you know that's u.

630
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: She hadn't trusted me like that kind of you know.

631
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 2: And anyway, their idea, they really wanted to flip this

632
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 2: guy to flip on the mafia, and they took him down.

633
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 2: I knew from spending a year with this guy there

634
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 2: was no way he was going to flip. I just

635
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 2: knew I'd gotten to know him. But you know, they

636
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 2: didn't want to hear that, so they had me lure

637
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 2: him to the Hilton Hotel at the O'Hare Airport in Chicago.

638
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 2: He thought he was going to meet Hoyst Gracie, this

639
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 2: famous MMA fighter, and he shows up. I walk him,

640
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: We go up the elevator and we walk him into

641
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 2: his room, and instead of Hoyst Gracie, they've lined up

642
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: the whole room with boxes of evidence. Okay, like they're

643
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: making a big show to get him to flip. There's

644
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 2: the ATF and the FBI agents, and so you know,

645
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 2: I walk them in. They get him and sit him down,

646
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 2: and you know, he refuses to believe that I'm a cop.

647
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 2: He's not talking, he's not giving him anything. So they're like, hey,

648
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: you need to go in there and show him your

649
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 2: badge and get him to talk. And that's the last

650
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: thing I wanted to do. You know, in my mind,

651
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, listen, I did my job and it sucked,

652
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: but I did it. And now I don't mainly do

653
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 2: this right. But you know that's the job, right. So

654
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: I walk in there and I show him my badge

655
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 2: and I tell him, listen, this this is my assignment.

656
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: It's my you know, this is my job what I do.

657
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: And I want you to know that this wasn't personal.

658
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: And he looked at me and he goes, it wasn't personal.

659
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: Everything you've told me up to right now has been

660
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 2: a lie. You've met my family, my wife, my kid,

661
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 2: my friends, and you haven't told me anything that's true

662
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: this entire time. You're going to tell me that that's

663
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: not personal. And you know, for once once in my life,

664
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 2: I had no witty response. I had no retort. I

665
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: just kind of looked at him, shrugged my shoulders, and

666
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: walked away. I never saw him again too. He was

667
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 2: sitting in the defendant's chair at the trial.

668
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: I feel it it would be hard and you know,

669
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: as you say, you're doing your job. But I think

670
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: he sort of nailed it when he said it's not personal.

671
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: Of course it's personal to him anyway, So yeah, that's a.

672
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 3: That's a hard hit.

673
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: Another aspect that comes out, which I've always found fascinating

674
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: in police work is dealing with informants, And I just

675
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: want to mention one of your informants, Ray, at one

676
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: of the sting operations. He's referred to in the book

677
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: as Ray, and I just thought, I've a lot of

678
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: work I did in my policing career. I had informants,

679
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: became close to them and respect them for what they

680
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: were doing. But I've also so and I've had informants

681
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: like Ray that feel part of the term and they

682
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: in fact become part of the team and get excited

683
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: about being involved in the operation. I just had put

684
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 1: a smile on my face. How he wanted to be

685
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: involved in all the takedowns and was telling the technical

686
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: blokes what they should be doing.

687
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was definitely. You know, his father was a

688
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 2: big wig with the Indian Police IPS and Ray had

689
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: taken the test three times, you know, to follow on

690
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 2: his father's footsteps, but he failed all three times. So

691
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: he came to America and bought a convenience store gas station,

692
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: became very successful at that and one day he unknowingly

693
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: walked into an ATF storefront operation and bought untaxed cigarettes

694
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: and ended up getting arrested. So he was here illegally.

695
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: He had overstayed on his visa, and even though the

696
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 2: untaxed cigarettes really isn't much of a charge, he was

697
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: going to be deported, and somehow his lawyer talked me

698
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: into keeping him here and making him an informant. He

699
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 2: is the most unlikely informant. I mean, not a physically

700
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 2: imposing guy. He's just a little Indian dude who didn't

701
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 2: really speak English very well and had never held a gun,

702
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 2: never done it be drugs. And this guy became, I

703
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: would say, and I am comfortable saying this, the greatest

704
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 2: informant the United States government has ever had. Just a

705
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: total natural man. He got me into. He got me

706
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 2: into Mexican cartels, American street gangs, stolen car rings, just

707
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: the Italian mafia. He was unbelievable because he was so unassuming,

708
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 2: and he he loved doing it. Uh, you know, we

709
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 2: didn't pay him. He only did it just to stay

710
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: here was his reason. We never paid him. But he

711
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: wanted he always wanted to go to the extra mile.

712
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: He wanted to be part of the takedown. To you,

713
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 2: he wanted to tackle these guys himself, to the point

714
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: where he could be very annoying to those, you know,

715
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,240
Speaker 2: to cops who didn't know him, and it was almost

716
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 2: in a comical way, but he really he took pride

717
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: in his job, his role, and in the results that

718
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 2: we had. And and I'll tell you man it you

719
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: know I did. I developed a relationship with this guy. Uh.

720
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: He was always kind of getting in a little bit

721
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 2: of trouble, but it was always bullshit tax stuff. But

722
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: you know, when it for the real work, for the

723
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 2: lord's work, getting you know, crime guns off the street

724
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: and getting you know, large amounts of dangerous drugs, fentannel

725
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 2: off the street. Man, he was unstoppable and just a

726
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 2: pleasure to work with. And my second book that I'll

727
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 2: be coming out with soon is called Raycon The Betrayal

728
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 2: of an Informant, because he was absolutely he was treated

729
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: like ship by the United States.

730
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I see your anger. And I'll be interested

731
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,919
Speaker 1: in seeing that book because some of them, like the informants,

732
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: really do a good job and they put themselves out

733
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 1: there and they're putting their lives at risk. Depending on

734
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: the circumstances and all that, but yeah, I can understand it.

735
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: I've also heard you say in different interviews that you've

736
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: done that some of the people that you've worked against,

737
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: as in the crooks and some of the informants, really

738
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: they had your back, and that's a that's a thing

739
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: you know that they've got your back. And I when

740
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: I got into trouble at the end of my police career,

741
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: I had people coming out that i'd locked up supporting me,

742
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 1: and I had informants coming out that were rock solid

743
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 1: I had. I had one. He's sadly, I'm not smiling

744
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,879
Speaker 1: when I'm saying this because I miss him. You as

745
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 1: part of my life. He passed away. But when I

746
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 1: got in the in trouble and it hit the media

747
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 1: in the police, he said, hey, brother, don't worry about it.

748
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: If you get locked up, I'll get locked up and

749
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: I'll look after you in the yard.

750
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: Holy he and just you can't.

751
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: Beat that type of type of loyalty. And I smile

752
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: a smile about some of the aspects. You've always got

753
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: to keep your integrity with them and the dealings with them,

754
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: But it doesn't hurt to show a little bit bit

755
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: of humanity towards them, and quite often that's what's motivating him.

756
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: It's not all the ways about the money or getting

757
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 1: off charges. Sometimes they're trying to do the right thing,

758
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,879
Speaker 1: or they've said that they would help you and they

759
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: stick to their words. So it's an interesting aspect of policing.

760
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: So I'd be very interested in your second book if

761
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: you're covering off on some of that, because some of

762
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: the situation as you find yourself in.

763
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 2: You know, Gary, it's just another thing that my first

764
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 2: partner taught me, the whole treating everyone with dignity and respect.

765
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 2: And he taught me from the beginning. He said, listen,

766
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 2: when it comes to informants, he said. Obviously every case

767
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 2: is different, but you know everyone's going to tell you

768
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: never fully trust and inform it. You can never fully

769
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: trust form it. He goes, Really, he said, you know,

770
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: this guy is taking me into this house with a

771
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 2: bunch of people who will definitely kill me if they can.

772
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 2: He goes, So, my whole life depends on this guy.

773
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 2: He's vouching for me. I'm not supposed to trust this guy.

774
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: And you know he taught and you treat them with

775
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,439
Speaker 2: respecting dignity again, just like a crook unless they give

776
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 2: it not to you know.

777
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, we one hundred percent. I'm with you totally on that.

778
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: So your your career and you're not the first officer

779
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: of police officer or law enforcement officer all the last

780
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: that's appeared on this show. But they create didn't end

781
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: the why that I thought it within? What How did

782
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: your career career end?

783
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 2: My career ended with with very bad choices. Those were

784
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 2: made by me. I had lost my way. Uh. You know,

785
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: we started this conversation by talking about when you work

786
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 2: under cover, sometimes you become that person that you're portraying.

787
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 2: And and I had done that, you know, I was

788
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: I was believing my own bullshit, right. I was buying

789
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 2: into the ship that I was selling. I bought it myself,

790
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 2: and I was I was running around to the uh

791
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: you know, to the detriment of my family and my friends. Uh.

792
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 2: I was running around in this world, this crime world, uh,

793
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 2: and living my life starting to believe you know that

794
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 2: I that I was selling nunziato. Uh. And that led

795
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:04,959
Speaker 2: to it led to excessive drinking, and it led to infidelity,

796
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 2: uh with my wife. And unfortunately it was with a

797
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 2: federal prosecutor who was working assigned to the cases these

798
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: operations that I was doing, and when that came out, Uh,

799
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 2: that was that was the end of both of our

800
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 2: careers and a really hard fall for me because because

801
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:37,439
Speaker 2: of those circumstances, Uh, the government really turned on us

802
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: and went after us. And you know, these these inappropriate

803
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 2: relationships have been happening since the dawn of time between

804
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 2: male and female cops and prosecutors and all that. But

805
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 2: because of the nature of this, you know, they just

806
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 2: they went, they went after us, went overboard. However, it

807
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 2: sent me just spinning down into this world where I

808
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 2: couldn't get out of it. I didn't think there was

809
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 2: a way out. I was like, Wow, these people are

810
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: going after me. And these are the same people, you

811
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 2: know that I've been working with my whole career. I

812
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 2: know they can get anyone they set their sights on.

813
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't they be able to get me? And I

814
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 2: mean I went, Gary, When I tell you, I went,

815
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 2: I probably lost fifty pounds in a matter of a

816
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 2: few weeks, a total mental breakdown. Everything just that I

817
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: had been holding inside it all came out and I

818
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 2: ended up and I don't say this for a dramatic effect.

819
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 2: But I ended up sitting in my bedroom paranoid, thinking

820
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 2: every car driving by was you know, a government surveillance.

821
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 2: And I ended up just trying to find a reason

822
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 2: not to end it because I didn't see any way out.

823
00:46:54,840 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 2: And you know, luckily, you know my faith, and you know,

824
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: just the just slight glimmer, you know, chance that my

825
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 2: family would you know, forgive me, and that carried me through.

826
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 2: You know, I was able to make it through, and

827
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 2: once I was cleared, I made the decision to retire.

828
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 2: I had been on for twenty six years at that point.

829
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: You know, So at that point, I I I had

830
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 2: a buddy who was a homicide detective and he told me,

831
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: he said, man, you got to write a book. He said,

832
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 2: as a as a mental exercise, he was, you got

833
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: to write a book. It was because I've never seen

834
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 2: anyone go through the crazy shit you've gone through, and

835
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 2: so it was it was a mental exercise. And I

836
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 2: wrote the book and the book just did really well.

837
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 2: And next thing, you know, my second career is in

838
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 2: the entertainment industry.

839
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:57,839
Speaker 1: You know, I know the path you've walked. And when

840
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: you said, like the paranoia when you feel like the

841
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 1: people that were after you, the people that used to

842
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: used to work with. It's confronting, isn't it. And I

843
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: don't see you as a person crying poor or whatever,

844
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: and I'm not either. You know, that's the game, that's

845
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 1: the world that we've been involved in. We're set up

846
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: to understand how it plays out. But you've gone from

847
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 1: being in your mind the good guy doing everything, and

848
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 1: that was your passion and then that was taken away

849
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 1: from you. So I can understand how hard the path

850
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 1: it was to dig your way out of it. And

851
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: I think in your book you gave cutos to your

852
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 1: wife that had a hard conversation with you when you're

853
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: at your lowest point, and the fact that you managed

854
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: to fix things up there. But yeah, public humiliation is

855
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: never good. And when an organization you've given your heart

856
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 1: and soul to turns on you, I can understand the pain.

857
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: And brother, it was. I don't know how long your

858
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 2: situation lasts, but mine was two and a half years.

859
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 2: And I can tell you there don't put that much

860
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 2: effort into a murder investigation as they put into trying

861
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 2: to take down one of their own. Yeah, and so

862
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,919
Speaker 2: it was. And you know, as guys like us who

863
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 2: are always used to being in control tope personalities to

864
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 2: have no control and the unknown is the worst thing

865
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 2: in the world. And that's what for the first time

866
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 2: in my life, I had no control over what was

867
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 2: going to happen to me and managrove me crazy.

868
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,919
Speaker 1: I understand exactly where you're coming from with it, and yeah,

869
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: I share that pain. And you lose your tribe. I

870
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 1: lost that many what I considered friends. Now I look

871
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 1: back and think maybe it wasn't true friends, but the

872
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: ones that were true friends have really stood up and

873
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 1: had the delete. Yeah, ninety percent of most numbers in

874
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 1: the phone because I never heard from anyone. I'm sure

875
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: you went through that type of stuff.

876
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 2: Isn't it funny? I had three phones. I had my

877
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 2: government phone, my official one, my undercover phone, and my

878
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: personal phone, and between three of them, there wasn't a

879
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 2: minute when they weren't ringing off the hook. It was

880
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 2: it was either informants or bad guys, or my colleagues

881
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 2: or my supervisors or friends or whatever it was. And

882
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 2: overnight they all went silent, and it was deafining. Silence

883
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:21,760
Speaker 2: was deafening.

884
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: It's kind stop it. You're making me relive it too,

885
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 1: right writing the book? Did you find that cathartic?

886
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 2: Man? It was because what I did was one of

887
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 2: my my supervisors at the end, he pulled me aside,

888
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 2: and you know they all had my back. Man, they

889
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: were great. He pulled me dound and he said, here's

890
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: what I want you to do. He goes that copy

891
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 2: over there, he goes, I want you to print out

892
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 2: every report you've ever written. I just started printing them out,

893
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 2: and that's what I used. You know, I read through

894
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 2: them to help me write the book. And it was

895
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 2: absolutely it was cathartic. And my case in particular, the

896
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 2: two false allegations against me, what they accused me of

897
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 2: were they were killers. Because the worst thing you can

898
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 2: do to a cop is to accuse him of being untruthful, right,

899
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 2: because it cures credibility. So the two accusation against me,

900
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 2: where one was perjury on the stand and the other

901
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 2: was false information in an application for the s visa

902
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 2: for my informant. So when you when you accuse, all

903
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 2: we have as police officers are a word on the stand.

904
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 2: When you get accused of being a liar, it's it's

905
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 2: a career end or it's it's a career killer, not

906
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 2: only for your law enforcement career, but for any job

907
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 2: you might want afterward. Right when someone googles you and

908
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 2: they see an accusation of perjury, you're done. And all

909
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 2: that made the paper and the internet and the news.

910
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 2: But when I was found, when I was cleared, it's

911
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 2: funny that that didn't make the paper. No One on

912
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,879
Speaker 2: no one wrote an article about me getting cleared. So

913
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 2: so I've had to work extra hard. A guy approached

914
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 2: me who owns a magazine here and he wanted me

915
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 2: to be in the magazine. And I was like, I

916
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 2: was like, dude, I've had my little encounter with the

917
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 2: press and it hasn't been good, so I'm going to

918
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 2: have to politely decline. And he said listen. He goes,

919
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 2: what do you want the most? He goes, what do

920
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 2: you want in life right now at this point the most?

921
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 2: And I said, what I want the most is I

922
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 2: don't want my son to ever google my name and

923
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 2: see this bullshit that's been written about me. He said, well,

924
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 2: then you have to bury that with good stuff. Bury it.

925
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 2: So that's on the tenth page. So I said, okay,

926
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 2: and I did it. He put me on the cover

927
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 2: of his magazine and that kind of kickstarted this whole

928
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 2: second career.

929
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: Ill, full credit to you, because these are hard ride

930
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,240
Speaker 1: back and all the things that you touch on, I

931
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 1: know how it hits. But look, I'm glad you found something.

932
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: It sounds like you got some exciting things at foot

933
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: in the in the future. You're talking of the TV show,

934
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,479
Speaker 1: You've got something coming up along those lines as well.

935
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 2: So we the first season just finished. We filmed it

936
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four and it ran its course on

937
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:21,439
Speaker 2: Discovery and on Matt HBO Max or Max. It's called

938
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 2: Operation Undercover. And I'm the host of the show. And

939
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,839
Speaker 2: what I do is I go around this country, around

940
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: America to different cities, different police departments and sheriff departments,

941
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 2: and we embed with these departments for a week with

942
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 2: their undercover units. And they let us right in. And

943
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 2: I mean when I say in bed like we are

944
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 2: in the cars with them. When there's an undercover officer

945
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 2: walking into a hotel room to buy, you know, a

946
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 2: kilo of fentanyl from some cartel guy. We're right on

947
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 2: the outside on the perimeter, watching and you know, we

948
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 2: show it all and it all gets shown. And we

949
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 2: did seven episodes in different states, all over the country,

950
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 2: different police department, and we show the case. You know,

951
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 2: these are these are faster cases because we're only there

952
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 2: for a week, but we show from beginning to end,

953
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,280
Speaker 2: from when they're talking to the informant and he's bringing

954
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 2: the undercover officer in and the drug buys or the

955
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 2: gun buys, whatever happens to be, and then afterward when

956
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:26,839
Speaker 2: they kick the door in and take down the bad guy,

957
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 2: we show the whole thing. So it's no recreations. This

958
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 2: is real. It's fast paced. I mean it's no again,

959
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 2: I don't like recreations. There's no it's all real. And

960
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 2: and I'll tell you what, man, it is exciting as.

961
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 1: How Yeah, no, it sounds it because like the undercover

962
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 1: work is a world that even cops don't get to see,

963
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: Like cops get to see up things other people don't see.

964
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: But then that's at another level when you look at

965
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: the the undercover stuff. So that that sounds sounds good.

966
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,479
Speaker 1: Second book in the in the planning as well.

967
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. After So the first book did really good. It

968
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 2: was called Storefront Sting, an ATF agent's life undercover, and

969
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: I basically tell my story like I've told it to you,

970
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 2: and it was actually it was bought by a Hollywood company.

971
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 2: Right now. These things take forever, but right now it's

972
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 2: it's in front of Netflix and they're looking at it

973
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 2: at possibly making it into a Netflix series with each

974
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 2: storefront being a different season, you know, using different actors

975
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 2: for different my different undercover teams and all. So we'll

976
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 2: see if that happens. And you know, I'm right now,

977
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 2: I'm waiting to hear from Discovery by season two for

978
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 2: Operation Undercover.

979
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 1: Exciting times and in my transition from policing into working

980
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: in the media, it's good working with creative people too,

981
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 1: isn't it. Sometimes policing can be a little bit negative.

982
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 1: And then you step away and yeah, credit where credits due.

983
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: If you're doing a good job, it's not it's you're

984
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: not competing. It's creative people and they've got an energy

985
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: that's sort of revitalizes. So that's I'm glad you found

986
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:03,399
Speaker 1: that path.

987
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 2: Yeah man, I'm you know, I'm glad you got a

988
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 2: second career as well, and you're in it. I don't

989
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 2: know if you experienced the same thing I did what

990
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 2: I found. Uh, what the entertainment industry. That downside is

991
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 2: at least when I was when I was a cop,

992
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 2: every two weeks my paycheck came in. And regardless I

993
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: knew it, it is so hard getting people to write

994
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 2: you a check in the entertainment industry, Like yeah, I

995
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 2: mean if you see in your family from it, you

996
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 2: really got to hustle, man.

997
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 1: And I can see your experience when you're sign oh

998
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 1: they're doing this. But until it's done, that it's done.

999
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 1: Do you miss aspects of place in the adrenaline Russian

1000
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 1: aspects of the life that you lived?

1001
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: So that's crazy. The answer was definitely a yes. But

1002
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:52,720
Speaker 2: fortunately last year I got to experience it again because

1003
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 2: I found myself right back in the mix with these

1004
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 2: cops through and undercover cases. I just I didn't have

1005
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 2: a gun, right.

1006
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm actually lou now I know exactly what your man.

1007
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: I'm a bit pissed off of you. Why can't we

1008
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: do and embedding the homicide de technique with homicide sands

1009
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 1: sands good, I just want to finish off with because

1010
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: we're struggling to find place here in Australia in different

1011
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: states and all that the UN demanded and they seems

1012
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: to be a real reluctance for people to join the place.

1013
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: What would you say to anyone that's considering a career

1014
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 1: in law enforcement.

1015
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 2: You know, we've had the same thing here in America. Right,

1016
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 2: It's been a tough five years for law enforcement in America.

1017
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 2: We've had we've had riots, we've had craziness. Recruiting is

1018
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 2: down to zero. You know, over here cops are not

1019
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 2: paid well. You know, if you want to if you

1020
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 2: want to be rich in this country, you don't go

1021
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 2: into law enforcement. And I'm sure it's that way in

1022
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 2: most countries, but here, here's what I would tell and

1023
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 2: I do tell when when young people ask me about

1024
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 2: going into law enforcement, I tell them this. I say, listen,

1025
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 2: if you want a career where you will really experience

1026
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 2: a true brotherhood. And when I say a brotherhood, I

1027
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 2: mean it doesn't matter. I'm not talking a male female,

1028
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 2: just a real brotherhood in a connection. I said, there's

1029
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 2: nothing other than possibly the military where you're going to

1030
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 2: experience that being part of a team and doing something

1031
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 2: that's fulfilling and you know, and actually making a difference

1032
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 2: and helping to protect the community. And you're going to

1033
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 2: also depending on where you want to go. There's so

1034
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 2: many avenues once you get into law enforcement. You know,

1035
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 2: if you want to if your thing is you want

1036
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 2: to be a dog handler, you want to work explosives, drugs, guns,

1037
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 2: white collar crime, counterfeiting. I mean, it's unlimited. You can

1038
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 2: go It's not like a regular job where you're pigeonhole.

1039
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 2: You can go into anything and it can be it

1040
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 2: can be fulfilling. My only word of caution or warning

1041
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 2: is that don't go into it if you think if

1042
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 2: you're doing it for accolades or appreciation, because you're not,

1043
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 2: that doesn't happen. But and the other thing is if

1044
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 2: if it is your choice and you do it, and

1045
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 2: I wouldn't tell anyone not to do it, build that

1046
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 2: resume while you're doing it, and think of the future,

1047
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 2: think of you know, the life life after, because you know,

1048
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 2: there's a lot of good things you can go into

1049
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 2: if you're smart about it, opportunities you know after law enforcement,

1050
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 2: which I did.

1051
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 1: Not do, but it's good advice because it can. Yeah,

1052
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: you're playing at the sharp end of a world and

1053
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: that can end pretty quickly in dramatic circumstances, and you

1054
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 1: should look what you've got the outside of law enforcement.

1055
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed this chat that gets me itchy feet

1056
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: and wants me to be a cop again here in

1057
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 1: the stories, and I love the book. And I get

1058
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: the shits when I read too many cop books because

1059
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 1: it makes me want to get back into doing what

1060
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: I do or what I did, I should say, so

1061
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: I haven't even let it go, but I want to

1062
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: thank you for the service to the community. And you know,

1063
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 1: I don't think we've mentioned this, but part of your career,

1064
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 1: and I know when it ends not in the way

1065
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: you expect that sometimes you think, well, what good have

1066
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 1: I done? I think in the operations you were involved

1067
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 1: in lou there was over a thousand guns taken off

1068
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 1: the street, and not to mention all the drugs and

1069
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: everything else. You've made a difference, mate, It's a big.

1070
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 2: Difference, man. I appreciate Thank you for those words. Brother.

1071
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 3: Thanks Will you take care of good luck with the future.

1072
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 2: God bless you.

1073
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 3: Sheeer is all right.