1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: Hi, it's Jen Kelly from In Black and White. I'll 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: be back soon with more new episodes, but for today, 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 1: he's one of my favorites from the archives. Hope you 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:09,319 Speaker 1: enjoy it. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 2: She was out there standing at the gates of Government House, 6 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: fighting back all those armed soldiers with her parasol. 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: I'm Jen Kelly from The Herald's Son and this is 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: In Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's 9 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: forgotten characters. Today we're telling the story of Mary Bly, 10 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: the rebellious daughter of Governor William Bly, one of the 11 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: great villains of Australian history. When three hundred armed soldiers 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: marched on Government House in the eighteen eight Rum Rebellion 13 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: to try to depose Governor Bly, It's rumored he hid 14 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: under a bit. His feisty daughter, on the other hand, 15 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: stood in defiance at the gates, valiantly trying to fight 16 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: off the armed rebels with just her parasol. To tell 17 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: the story, we're joined now by Sue Williams, an author 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: and journalist who's just released a new book called That 19 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: BLI Girl. Welcome to the podcast, so thanks so much. 20 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 2: Jen. 21 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: Now, when we think about women in the nineteenth century, 22 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: often we imagine them as submissive and obedient, and I 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 1: guess downtrodden. But that certainly wasn't the case with Mary Bly, 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: was it. 25 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: No, it certainly wasn't. I mean, maybe she was downtrodden 26 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 2: a little bit because she had an incredible father, William Bly, 27 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 2: one of the great villains of history, really, but she 28 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,919 Speaker 2: really faced up to him. I mean, I guess genetically 29 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: she had a lot of his bloody mindedness as well. 30 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 2: But she she was an amazing woman. She did incredible things. 31 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 2: I mean, can you imagine at the age of twenty 32 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 2: three being dragged over to this side of the world 33 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: from London, the only home she'd ever known, and then 34 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: she was immediately put in a position of enormous power 35 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 2: and influence in the new colony of New South Wales 36 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: obviously became Australia. But she was really she was really 37 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: courageous in so many ways. I mean, one thing that 38 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 2: really drew me in was the fact that when three 39 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: hundred armed soldiers marched on Government House in the Rum Rebellion, 40 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 2: which was our first and only military mutiny, she was 41 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 2: out there standing at the gates of Government House fighting 42 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: back all those armed soldiers with her parasol, and even 43 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: her father, William Blier, the governor, was hiding inside in 44 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: government house. He was allegedly hiding underneath his bed, but 45 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: we don't kind of know that for sure, but certainly 46 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 2: nobody else from the house came out to help her. 47 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: She was there alone and fighting all these troops. It 48 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 2: was quite amazing. And I heard about that, and I 49 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 2: really wanted to get to know this woman a lot better. 50 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: It's so remarkable, especially when you think that we barely 51 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: know her name today, and I'm so looking forward to 52 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: hearing that part of the story. But perhaps we take 53 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: it back to the very beginning. Do we know a 54 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: lot about her early life? 55 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 2: Not very much, but I mean because obviously we know 56 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: so much about the men because they were in positions 57 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: of power in the whole world, and men write history, 58 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 2: and men tend to write about other men, so women 59 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: tend to get a bit lost. Really, we know a 60 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: little bit about her early life though. She was the 61 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: second eldest daughter of six of William Blyin and his 62 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: wife Betsy. Her older sister, Harriet was got married early 63 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: and started having children early as well, so Mary was unmarried. 64 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: She was kind of living at home with her parents 65 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 2: and her sisters, and she you know you kind of 66 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: My book is historical fiction, so it's basically based on 67 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: history and everything. All the events that happen in the 68 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: book actually did happen. But I kind of try and 69 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: put a bit of flesh and blood onto the dry 70 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: bones of history. So I kind of try to create 71 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: her character and draw out her personality so we can 72 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: get to know her a bit better and we can 73 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,839 Speaker 2: have a bit of empathy with her. So I kind 74 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: of for what would it be like growing up with 75 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: a man like William Bli. He was a hero, a 76 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 2: war hero. He was fated by Nelson no less, but 77 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: then later on he kind of came to strife. No 78 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: fewer than three mutinies against him, and obviously we know 79 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 2: so much about mutiny on the Bounty, but there were 80 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: two others, so he was obviously not very He was 81 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: a fantastic mariner and it was amazing that he survived 82 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 2: the mutiny on the Bounty when he was set adrift 83 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: in a small boat and he guided himself and his 84 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: loyal crew. It was about six seven hundred kilometers to Timor, 85 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 2: which is an amazing feat and probably today we wouldn't 86 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 2: really be able to do it even with GPS. But 87 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,119 Speaker 2: at the same time, he was kind of a mean guy. 88 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: He was very arrogant. He was a real egotist, and 89 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: I kind of tried to imagine what it would be 90 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 2: like growing up in the same household with him. And 91 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 2: we know that he belittled Mary at lots of opportunities. 92 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 2: She loved drawing, she loved fashion, and he despised both 93 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 2: of those things. He constantly put her down, So you 94 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 2: can only imagine what it would have been like to 95 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: have her childhood like that. She also had lots of 96 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 2: childhood illnesses. She had terrible cirrhosis, which was known in 97 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: those days of the itch, and nobody kind of knew 98 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: what affected it, and obviously didn't have many good medicines 99 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 2: for that kind of thing. But we know that her 100 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 2: parents crushed up some mercury pills which would have not 101 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 2: been too nice and palatable to have taken. And it 102 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 2: was just she had kind of a difficult childhood, really, 103 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 2: And tell us about the man that she married. 104 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: Was it a marriage of love? 105 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it was a man. He was in the navy, 106 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: so he was introduced to the household by her father, 107 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: his name was John Putland. He was a tall, handsome 108 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 2: young man with his career ahead of him. He'd done 109 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 2: really well in various battles. He'd come to William Bli's 110 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: attention and he'd invited him back to their house in 111 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 2: Lambeth in London to meet the family and have dinner. 112 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: And William Blir was very keen on talking to him 113 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: about battles and Nelson and what was happening in the world. 114 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 2: But he really caught Mary's eye at the same time, 115 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 2: so Mary would try and steal him away from her father, 116 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 2: and her father got quite annoyed. But then we realized 117 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: that her father had brought him to the house for 118 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: a particular reason because Mary was unmarried. She was a 119 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 2: pretty young woman, and William bly was being touted as 120 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: the new governor of the new colony that became Australia, 121 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: so he needed a deputy. And when you think all 122 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: his deputies had mutanted against him previously, I mean Kristin 123 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: Fletcher was a really treasured friend and that had ended badly. 124 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 2: And he also had a nephew who was also in 125 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 2: the navy, who had gone on a voyage with him 126 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 2: and had come back and william Bly thought I'll have 127 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: him as deputy, but in fact that nephew said, I 128 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: am never going to see with that man again. He 129 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: was so awful. He would do things like in the 130 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: sailor's day off, he would make them dance a jig 131 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: on the deck to keep them fit. But that was 132 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: their day off. They didn't have many days off, so 133 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 2: he was kind of He was very determined and resolute 134 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: about what he thought and how a ship should be run, 135 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: and he would brook no dissension from anyone really, So 136 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: when she got together with John, it was the real match. 137 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: They really fell in love, and william Bly was actually 138 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: quite He was displeased at first, but then he was 139 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: quite happy because he thought, well, John Parlam can be 140 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: my deputy when I go over to the new colony. 141 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: And is that the only reason that Mary came out 142 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: to Australia because her husband was chosen to help head 143 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: up the colony. 144 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 2: That's right, poor Mary. She didn't want to come because 145 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: she just got married. She wanted to have babies and 146 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 2: her new husband had an estate in Island, so they 147 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: planned to go and live in Ireland. But when her 148 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 2: father got the job as governor, he ordered them both 149 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: to go. John Putlam probably would have seen it as 150 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: a fine adventure, but for Mary, she suffered terrible seasickness, 151 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 2: so she would have viewed it with absolute horror. But 152 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 2: she had to do as a woman, you had to 153 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: do what your father said in those days. And her 154 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,119 Speaker 2: mother didn't want to come with him. Presumably she didn't 155 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: want to spend six months in a tiny cabin at sea, 156 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 2: also getting seasick, so she said, oh no, no, Mary 157 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: can go. So poor Mary got stuck with the coming 158 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 2: over here. 159 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: Really, and that voyage from England to Sydney ended up 160 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: being pretty eventful, didn't it. 161 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: That's right. It was a shocker because Mary was seasick 162 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 2: all the time and there were terrible weather, terrible seas 163 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 2: and also William bly true to form, immediately picked a 164 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 2: fight with the captain of the flotilla. There were five 165 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 2: ships in the flotilla and William bly was he was 166 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: put in charge of the route and the number of 167 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: ports that they stopped at, but the actual captain of 168 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 2: the flotilla was given he was in charge of everything, 169 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 2: and that really annoyed William Blyer because he was much 170 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: superior in rank to the other guy. So he fought 171 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: with him constantly, and as a result, the other captain 172 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: took John Putland aboard his ship, so he separated Mary 173 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: and John, which was horrible for Mary. She only had 174 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: her father then that she knew on the ship, and 175 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 2: they fought so much. William Bly out of sheer bloody mindedness, 176 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: wouldn't let them stop in a number of ports to 177 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: pick up fresh water or fresh vegetables. Lots of the 178 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: crew started suffering from scurvy, and it was a really 179 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 2: awful voyage all the way through, and the fights between 180 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 2: the two captains were so bad that the other captain, 181 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: who had his wife and his six children with him, 182 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 2: and his wife gave birth during the voyage. She was 183 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 2: pregnant with twins, but she lost one of the babies, 184 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: but had the other baby by the time they arrived 185 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: in Sydney. William bly Court marshaled him and sent him 186 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 2: straight back to England. And he kind of think after 187 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: six months of horror at sea, being put back on 188 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: a ship after planning to make a new life in 189 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 2: the colony, they'd come with seeds. They planned to start 190 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: a farm. His reward for bringing over the flotilla safely 191 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 2: was to be a plot of land that he could 192 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 2: set up his farm, and instead he was ordered back 193 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 2: onto the ship to go back to make that horrendous 194 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 2: voyage back to London, and his wife sadly died on 195 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 2: that ship. And that came back to haunt William Bly 196 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 2: as well, because when the courts in Britain were trying, 197 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 2: we're kind of looking at the whole mess of William Blind. 198 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: What happened, what was happening in Australia. They took a 199 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 2: lot of they put a lot of store by the 200 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 2: evidence given by the other captain of how crawl William 201 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: Bly was. And so that really came back to hurt 202 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 2: him terribly. 203 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: And there was another really disturbing incident on that voyage 204 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: over to Sydney, wasn't there, So that's right. 205 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 2: At one point Bli wanted to set the course and 206 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: Captain Short tried to overrule him, so Bly in the 207 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: end kept on his course, and so Captain Short ordered 208 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 2: John Putland, Mayor's husband, to fire a shot across the 209 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: bows of Captain Bly's ship. So Paul Mary was now 210 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: being fired at by her husband, and they were really 211 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 2: they had no idea what was going on until finally 212 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: they realized it was because they were refusing to go 213 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: on the same course as Captain Short said was much 214 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: more wise. So in the end Bli had to back 215 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 2: down and agree to go on the same course. And yeah, 216 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: so it was. I mean, poor John Putlam was in 217 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: the situation where Captain Short said to him, unless Blig 218 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: changes his course, this time, you have to fire to 219 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: actually hit the ship, and you think, oh my god, 220 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: he was firing at his new wife and his father 221 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 2: in law. So it would have been horrendous, so that 222 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 2: the whole fight between the two captains really boiled over 223 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: into something ghastly, a terrible start for the voyage over really. 224 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: And once they reached Sydney. What was Mary's role in 225 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: the new colony and a government house? 226 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so she was the governor's consort. So traditionally the 227 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 2: wives or the consorts of the governors were there to 228 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 2: smooth the way, and obviously William bly needed somebody to 229 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 2: really help him smooth the way. His wife did that 230 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 2: that was her big role in London. But over here 231 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: it was up to Mary to try and smooth things over. 232 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, she she felt very sorry 233 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: for Captain Short, who has been sent back, but there 234 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 2: was nothing she could do about that, but she kind 235 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 2: of introduced him to all the old governor Gidley King 236 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: who was just about to leave, and his wife. Her 237 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 2: role was also to be an ambassador for charity and 238 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: look after the female orphanage that her predecessor of the 239 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 2: Governor's wife had set up. So she had lots of 240 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 2: kind of informal and informal roles she had to entertain 241 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 2: at Government House. They had to entertain dignities and anybody 242 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 2: coming from overseas and try and smooth the way for Blye, 243 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: knowing that he had such a bad temper he was 244 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 2: likely to make enemies from the very get go. 245 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: Really, we'll be back shortly to hear more about Mary's 246 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: life in Sydney, so stay with us and tell us 247 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: more about that sort of the parties and the balls. 248 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: And it must have been quite a lavish lifestyle that 249 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: she leaved. And as you mentioned, she loved fashion, so 250 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure she was always incredibly well dressed. 251 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, but she had a really terrible fashion 252 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 2: faux par. At one point her mother would send her 253 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: over the latest gowns, the latest London fashions, and at 254 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: that point, it was kind of all Empire line gowns, 255 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: but the waistline were going up to just underneath the bust. 256 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 2: And at one point the fashion was to have these 257 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 2: really quite translucent gowns, so there quite diaphonous that you 258 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: could kind of see through them, really, and then wear 259 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: pantaloons underneath. And in London you'd wear them in the 260 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 2: drawing rooms and they'd be dark and gloomy, and they 261 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: would be quite proper. You wouldn't see anything. But Mary 262 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: made a huge mistake. One of the gowns that came over. 263 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 2: She was dying to wear it, so she decided to 264 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 2: wear it to church. She went to church in this 265 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: gown with her pantaloons on underneath, but she hadn't thought 266 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: about the strong sunlight this side of the world. And 267 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: of course, as soon as she stood up for the 268 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 2: hymns in church, everybody could see the outla kind of 269 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: like Princess Diana, do you remember that thing? They could 270 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: see the outline of her pantaloons underneath her gown. So 271 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: it scandalized everybody, and all the soldiers sitting behind were 272 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 2: all sniggering and laughing, and Bly turned round and realized 273 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 2: what they were laughing at. Mary turned around and realized 274 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: what they were laughing at. Mary did the only thing 275 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: that young women could do in those days. She fainted. 276 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: But Bly ordered the soldiers out of the church and 277 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: then rerated them, you know, for many many minutes, and 278 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: told them that there would be huge repercussions for this. 279 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 2: And already he was having problems with the rum call 280 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: the soldiers who were running the place, and that only 281 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: served to make the hostilities mount even more quickly. So 282 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: that was a really important event really that Mary hadn't intended, 283 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: but you know, unfortunately her love of fashion really created 284 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: that issue too. Yeah. Yes, BLI was already falling out 285 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: with the Rum Corps. He was falling out with John MacArthur, 286 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: the Wall pioneer who had previously been a captain in 287 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: the Rum Corps. John MacArthur had always wanted more land. 288 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: He was constantly wanting more land for his sheep, and 289 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: he had fallen out with previous governors as well, and 290 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: Blike kept refusing him more land. So MacArthur seemed to 291 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: be absolutely adamant that would try and get rid of 292 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 2: Bly and then the rum Corps when they started getting 293 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 2: rated by Bly as well, they started falling out with 294 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: him too, and you know the forces against him gathered. 295 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: Now, before we get onto the rum rebellion, can you 296 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about how Mary's marriage was going. 297 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: You mentioned that she'd wanted to start a family. Did 298 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: they try to start a family in Sydney? 299 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: Well, yes, I mean she was desperately in love with 300 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 2: John Putland, and when they arrived in Sydney it was 301 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 2: fantastic because they could be together again. You know, they'd 302 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: been separated for six months on the ships, and they'd 303 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: only been able to see each other occasion when Captain 304 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 2: Short allowed or when the hostilities between him and BLI 305 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: kind of soothed a little bit, so Captain Short would say, Okay, 306 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: John can come over for a night. So I think 307 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: when she arrived she was absolutely delighted to be with 308 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 2: John again. But she was horrified to realize that a 309 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 2: little cough that it had in London, and that he'd 310 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: said no, no, no, it's fine, had got worse and worse, 311 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,479 Speaker 2: and he'd lost an awful off weight by the time 312 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 2: he arrived here, and she thought maybe it was just 313 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: the voyage, but really it was the beginnings of consumption. 314 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 2: TV which was prevalent obviously in those times, and she 315 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 2: always hoped that he would improve and he would recover, 316 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: but sadly he got sicker and sicker and sicker, and 317 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 2: finally he just took to his bed and never rose again. Really, 318 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 2: but consumption was absolutely awful death. You can kind of 319 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 2: see people waste away in front of you, so you 320 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: can only imagine what hell she went through. And she 321 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 2: would have been quite angry at her father as well, 322 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: because it was his idea that they come over, and 323 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: that that voyage was probably the death of John really 324 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 2: in many ways. And also she hadn't been able to 325 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 2: tend to him because you know, he'd been stuck on 326 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 2: the other ship because of Bligh's terrible temper. So sadly 327 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 2: he died and she was absolutely distraught, and it would 328 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 2: have been oh god, it would have been terrible for her. 329 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 2: I mean, she'd only been married just over a year 330 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: when they arrived in Sydney, and to lose a husband 331 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 2: so young, it would have been ghastly. 332 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: And I can imagine at that point that she would 333 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: have wanted to return home to England and her mother. 334 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 2: Oh, it's certainly, and she's written letters to her mother. 335 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: I mean, at first she didn't talk about how sick 336 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 2: John was because she didn't want to worry her mother. 337 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: But by the end, you know, she was saying, look, 338 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 2: we're kind of losing hope. We're praying for a miracle. 339 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: And then when John did die, Yes, there's a real 340 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: longing in her letters to be back with her family. 341 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 2: You know, if you've got five sisters, I mean, it 342 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: would be wonderful to be back in the bosom of 343 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 2: the family, I would imagine. And her mother was always 344 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 2: very concerned about her. So yes, Mary would have loved 345 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: to have gone back. But duty. We've been hearing with 346 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: the Royal Coronation all about service and duty, and in 347 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 2: those days it was exactly the same. Her duty to 348 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: her father was paramount, really, and he was going to 349 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 2: be there for maybe six years, and so she kind 350 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 2: of resigned herself to the thought that she would have 351 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 2: to be there for a lot longer. 352 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: Now take us forward to the rebellion and specifically Mary's 353 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: role in those events. 354 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: Yes, well, we've heard about the fateful Pantaloons, but the 355 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 2: forces against Bly were kind of gathering. I mean, his 356 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 2: real support base was in the Hawksbury, just outside Sydney 357 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: where there were lots of farmers with smaller plots that 358 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 2: would grow growing crops. And then there were the farmers 359 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 2: like John MacArthur who wanted these vast tracts of land 360 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: for their sheep and later on for cattle as well. 361 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 2: And BLI really favored the small farmer's idea. That's how 362 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 2: he thought Australia would develop. But that was becoming more 363 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 2: and more unfashionable with the rum Corps, who he was 364 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 2: batting against all the time. He was trying to limit 365 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 2: their activities. They would often all the supplies for the 366 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: colony would arrive in Sydney and they would take first 367 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 2: DIBs of everything, and then they would sell them onto 368 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 2: the locals a much higher price. So it was very, 369 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: very difficult all the time, and I think gradually more 370 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: and more enmity rose against Bly, and he made a 371 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: fateful mistake. At one point he said that John MacArthur 372 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: should be arrested. So he was arrested, sent to prison, 373 00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: and then of course the rum Corps went and really 374 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: him the head of the Rong call. Then George Johnson 375 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: went and released him, and then they decided to march 376 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 2: on Government House to unseat Governor Bly, and that's where 377 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 2: Mary really comes into her own again. At the time, 378 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: she was entertaining a dinner party at Government House, and 379 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 2: then suddenly they could hear the pipes and drums sounding 380 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: at the head of the procession. They had messengers running 381 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: into Government House telling them that people were gathering in 382 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 2: the town center and were starting to march up the hill, 383 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 2: so they knew something bad was happening. There were fires 384 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: being lit, there were effages of William Bly being put 385 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: on those fires. So she said she had to go 386 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 2: out and she had to see what was happening for herself. 387 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 2: And as she went out to the front gates of 388 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 2: Government House, she could see everybody marching down the hill 389 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 2: towards her. So she knew exactly what was happening. And 390 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 2: she was very fearful that they were there to kill 391 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: her father. And I mean much as she probably quite 392 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: disliked her father, at that point, I mean, she was 393 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: still dressed in her mourning black, so she was still 394 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: grief stricken. You know, her father had caused all this enmity, 395 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: and she'd seen him do it firsthand, and yet she thought, 396 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 2: I've got to protect my father, you know. She was 397 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 2: there kind of on her own. With John dead, she 398 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: thought they can't kill my father as well, so she 399 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: went to the gates and with her parasol, even though 400 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 2: they had all their loaded muskets, she started hitting them 401 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: beaten chest with her parasol and she kind of exchanged 402 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 2: words with them. They said we're not here for you, 403 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 2: We're here for your father, and she was saying, well, 404 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: you know, get out, you know you'll hang for this, 405 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: so obviously very spirited in the same way as her father, really, 406 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 2: but they pushed past her. Eventually got into the house 407 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 2: and started searching for Bly, and it was it was 408 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 2: interesting because it took them a long time to find Bly. 409 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 2: So this started the rumor that he was perhaps hiding 410 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 2: upstairs underneath the servants, but Blind insisted that he was 411 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 2: just gathering his papers because he had hoped to be 412 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: able to get out of the house undetected and ride 413 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 2: off to the Hawksbury and gather an army there of 414 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: the Hawksbury farmers who were loyal to him, and then 415 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 2: ride back to the city and disperse the rum corps. 416 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: But he wasn't able to get out of the house 417 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: at all, so he was whether he was hiding or 418 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 2: whether he was kind of filing his papers and getting ready, 419 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 2: we don't know, but he certainly wasn't at the gates 420 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 2: with Mary. Poor Mary just out there all alone. And 421 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 2: when the soldiers she rushed back into the house, and 422 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 2: when the soldiers started to climb the stairs, she tried 423 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 2: to stop them climbing the stairs as well. You know, 424 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: it was an astonishing kind of performance by you know, 425 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,719 Speaker 2: a woman who didn't have a gun, who had nothing, 426 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 2: who just had her parathol. Incredible. 427 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: Really, I would have thought there would have been lots 428 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: of guards around government house to help her. 429 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, that's right. You would think so, wouldn't you. 430 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 2: But no, I guess that they didn't have personal protection 431 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 2: in those days. You know, the rum calls were the 432 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 2: official guardians of the state, and when they turned against 433 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: the governor, there was nothing else anyone could do. That. 434 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: There were servants, but obviously the servants would be armed 435 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: and they'd be nervous about what was happening as well. 436 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 2: And the dinner guests, one of them a reverend. He 437 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 2: tried to help Mary in the house, but mostly he 438 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 2: kind of pulled Mary away because he knew that she 439 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 2: was going to get badly injured if she insisted on 440 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: keeping trying to stop the soldiers. 441 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: And was she hurt at all in all of this? 442 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 2: No, No, they didn't hurt her. I think if it 443 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 2: hadn't been for the guests pulling her away, maybe, but 444 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 2: they wouldn't have wanted to hurt a woman. And it 445 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 2: seemed that they wanted to that. They really wanted the 446 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: rebellion to be peaceful in so many ways. I mean, 447 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: they would have loved Blight to have just given up 448 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 2: and gone away. That would have been that would have 449 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 2: solved all the issues. But unfortunately, I decided to make 450 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 2: things as awkward as possible for them. So she wasn't heard. 451 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 2: But they confined both of them to Government House and 452 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 2: they put them in, put them there, and they put 453 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: guards on them. So Mary was allowed to walk out 454 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: into the gardens into the domain, but with an armed 455 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 2: guard with her, and then come back again. But that 456 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: was all. And they negotiated with Blind and said, okay, 457 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 2: if you sell you're sailing this ship to England, we'll 458 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 2: let you go. But he, you know, he was such 459 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 2: a difficult man. He said, no, I'm happy to go 460 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 2: to England, but I'm not going in the ship you're 461 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 2: giving me. I want another ship, and he wanted the 462 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: best ship of the fleet, and they said, no, you 463 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: can't take that because at the time they were they 464 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 2: had another settlement on Norfolk Island and they were evacuating 465 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 2: that because it was it was too difficult to land there. 466 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 2: It was too difficult to supply food too, so they 467 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: were evacuating people from there and bringing them back down 468 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 2: to Tasmania. So they needed the ship for that. But 469 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 2: he was saying, no, I'm a going to do with 470 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 2: that ship. So this impasse went on and on and on, 471 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 2: and in the end Mary and Governor Bly stayed in 472 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 2: that house for a year under house arrest, with nobody 473 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 2: really quite knowing what to do. 474 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: And what happened to eventually convince BLYI to return to England. 475 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 2: Well, after a year, I think the rebel forces were 476 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 2: getting really fed up with him and they decided to 477 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 2: arrest him and take him to the barracks. And Mary 478 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 2: comes to the four again here because they take him 479 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 2: in a carriage to the barracks, which weren't very very 480 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 2: far away, to lock him up there because they thought, well, 481 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: we'll make it more uncomfortable for him that might be 482 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: a great way to persuade him to go. And when 483 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: Mary saw her father being taken away, she tried to 484 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 2: get in the carriage with him. The troops wouldn't let her, 485 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 2: so in the end, the carriage rode all the way 486 00:26:55,040 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: to the barracks, and she ran beside it as far 487 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: as she possibly could, all the way to the barracks. 488 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: And this was at midday, in the hot midday sun. 489 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 2: And you know, people were astonished that she managed a 490 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 2: to keep up with the carriage, and be that she 491 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 2: decided to do that anyway. I mean, you don't see 492 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 2: women running around in those days. It would have been 493 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 2: hard in those in those outfits, really difficult, But she 494 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 2: was so determined to look after her father. It was 495 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 2: interesting because at one you know, originally William Bly was 496 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 2: the protector, but then their roles kind of changed halfway through, 497 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: and Mary seems to have been touched by her father's vulnerability, 498 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 2: and then she became the protector for him. And when 499 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: they finally arrived at the barracks, she ended up determined 500 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 2: to stay with him. So eventually the troops realized how 501 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 2: determined she was and agreed that she could stay in 502 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 2: a room with him. It had a couple of rooms there, 503 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 2: but she would be locked up with him, and she 504 00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 2: was the only woman in the barracks and the only 505 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 2: woman who'd been ever allowed in. Quite incredible really, And 506 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 2: was he eventually sent him on a ship sorry, yes 507 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: he was, Yes, I think that the odds had stacked up. 508 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 2: And he finally agreed to go as long as he 509 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: could take everybody who he wanted, like when they were 510 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 2: going to get back to England, they would go to 511 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 2: court over this rebellion. So he said, if you allow 512 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 2: me to take everybody I want to with me, I 513 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 2: will agree to return to London. So George Johnson and 514 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: John MacArthur said, okay, we'll agree that as long as 515 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 2: you go straight to London, you don't do anything else. 516 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 2: You don't stop anywhere else along the coast of Australia, 517 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 2: and Blake said, yes, I give you my word. So 518 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: he was finally escorted to the ship and he set off. 519 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: But there was one person who they hadn't allowed to 520 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 2: come in his company. So he said, well they've broken 521 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 2: their words, so therefore I don't need to sail straight 522 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: to London. So he immediately saund to Tasmania. So poor Mary, 523 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: she thought that they were going to London. He hadn't 524 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: confided this plan to her at all, so she was 525 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 2: kind of relieved she'd finally be going home, back to 526 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: her family. And suddenly they turn right instead of going 527 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,479 Speaker 2: straight on and yes, they're going down to Tasmania. They 528 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: arrived in Hobart and the governor of Tasmania had previously 529 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: been very loyal to Bly, and Bly thought that he 530 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 2: might summon up an army to march back on Sydney 531 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 2: and kind of restore him to rule again. But the 532 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: governor obviously had realized that things had shifted and in 533 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 2: Tasmania he said no, look, I'm sorry, I can't support you. 534 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: So then Bli took his ship and started to blockade, 535 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 2: try and blockade the harbor and cause enormous problems for 536 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 2: the Tasmanian governor as well. He just wouldn't go away. 537 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 2: And then he sailed around Tasmania for a long time, 538 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: and Mary was pleading with him all the time to 539 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: go back to London. He wouldn't have a bar of it. 540 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: He kept saying, no, no, no, this is my role here. 541 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 2: I'm the governor here. I can't leave. Finally, floating around Tasmania. 542 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 2: Word comes to him that the British government is sending 543 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: someone over and that person is Lochland mcquarie, and Bligh 544 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 2: is delighted because he thinks the British government is as 545 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: sending mcquarie and his troops over to liberate Australia and 546 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 2: to restore him to rule, so he agrees to sail 547 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 2: back to Sydney. He arrives just after mcquarie arrives and 548 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 2: then discovers that actually McQuary has been appointed the new 549 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: governor and he's lost everything. So he's furious and outraged, 550 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,479 Speaker 2: and he refuses to come on land for three days 551 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 2: because mcruary keeps inviting him to dinner at Government House 552 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 2: and he keeps refusing. He keeps saying, no, I'm busy, 553 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 2: and Mary keeps saying, how the hell can you be busy? 554 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 2: You know, let's get off this ship because she's still 555 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 2: suffering from seasickness. But yeap. He makes it very, very 556 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: awkward for the new governor. 557 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: And when Blier eventually went home to England, Mary didn't 558 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: go with him. 559 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 2: Why was that? Well, while she was in Sydney when 560 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 2: they finally agreed to land, she became friendly with Missus mcquarie, 561 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 2: the governor's wife, Elizabeth mcquarie, and the two formed quite 562 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: an unlikely friendship in lots of ways because Mary, some 563 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: people in Sydney thought she was fabulous. She was a 564 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: real firebrand. She was so stoic and so heroic. A 565 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: lot of people really admired her. Other people found her 566 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 2: just too feisty for a woman, you know, in the 567 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 2: same way that women get criticized these days for being 568 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: too feisty. Things don't change in lots of ways. But 569 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 2: Elizabeth mcquarie introduced her to her husband, Lachlan mcquarie's deputy, 570 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 2: Maurice O'Connell, and he was really taken by Mary. He 571 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 2: was a huge guy, really tall, really broad, and Mary 572 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 2: was so slight, and often I think you find, you know, 573 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 2: really big men go for kind of tiny women. But 574 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 2: he just he fell in love with her almost instantly 575 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 2: and started pursuing her, and she was kind of concentrating 576 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 2: on going back to London with her father. She wasn't 577 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 2: really ready for romance. But then gradually he managed to 578 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 2: woo her and win her over and eventually asked her 579 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 2: to marry him. But preparations were continuing for Bligh to 580 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 2: return to London. He had insisted on going to see 581 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 2: lots of people during his time back in Sydney, going 582 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 2: to see his Hawksbury farmer friends again, going to say 583 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 2: goodbye to everybody he'd ever met. And then he just 584 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 2: assumed that Mary would come with him, and everybody kind 585 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 2: of thought she would. But then when Morris O'Connell asked 586 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 2: her to be his wife, she decided she really wanted 587 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: to stay in Sydney. And this was another horrendous thing 588 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: because it took her ages to draw up enough courage 589 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: to tell her father. It was really difficult for her. 590 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 2: And there were all these celebrations and a ball that 591 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 2: was held in his honor to say farewell, and it 592 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,479 Speaker 2: got to the point where they were actually escorting him 593 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: onto the ship, and she stayed there overnight, and that 594 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: was the last possible minute she could tell him she 595 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 2: wasn't going to go, and that's when she told him, 596 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 2: and apparently that night they were screaming at each other, 597 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 2: they were shouting at each other, there were tears. It 598 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 2: was just really difficult. I mean, it was so difficult 599 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 2: for women to stand up to their fathers, and a 600 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 2: father as strong and as domineering as William Blyth. That 601 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 2: would have been really tough, and you kind of really 602 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 2: feel for her, I mean, wow, to finally betray him 603 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 2: in that way. I mean, he saw it as a 604 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 2: real betrayal because you know, she was the only person 605 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 2: who had been law to him all the way. She'd 606 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 2: been his biggest supporter despite everything he'd done to her, 607 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 2: you know, making a sail around Tasmania for so many months. 608 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: She was always there for him. And he found that 609 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: really hard, and so he immediately put off the voyage 610 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 2: back to London, which upset everybody really, and decided to 611 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 2: stay for the wedding. So he stayed for the wedding, 612 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 2: even though he didn't particularly like her husband, And then 613 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 2: finally he agreed to leave, went back to London and 614 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 2: went to the courts and tried to court martial everybody 615 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,720 Speaker 2: who had been involved in the wrong rebellion. And Mary 616 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: stayed on in Sydney with her new husband. But it 617 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 2: wasn't it wasn't a terribly easy time for her because 618 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 2: she was incredibly happy and you know, they had plans 619 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 2: to start a family al most immediately, but the name 620 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 2: BLI still struck a lot of fear and antagonism among 621 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 2: a lot of people in the colony, and she kind 622 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 2: of still felt a bit bitter about her father being usurped, 623 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 2: and she still kind of caused a little bit of 624 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 2: trouble between his supporters and his enemies really, and so 625 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 2: mcquarie in the end, even though he liked her and 626 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 2: he'd allowed them to have Government House for their wedding 627 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 2: and had given them a huge tract of land for 628 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 2: their wedding present, finally said let's move them away. So 629 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 2: he moved Morris O'Connor, where he asked for government to 630 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 2: move Morris O'Connell and his troops over to Ceylon where 631 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 2: they were British were fighting a battle against the local 632 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 2: candy chiefs, so they were posted to Salon. So he 633 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 2: finally kind of got rid of Mary. So Mary went 634 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 2: to Celon with her husband. Then she was posted over 635 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 2: to Scotland, then then Britain and then Spain or Mortar 636 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 2: and France and kind of traveled all around the world, 637 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 2: and she had lots of children along the way, which 638 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 2: was fantastic. I mean, sadly she kind of lost a 639 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 2: child or two as well, because that's always kind of 640 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 2: what happened. But they were incredibly happy together, a really 641 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 2: strong unit. 642 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: We'll be back soon to talk about what happened next, 643 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: so stay with us. And did they end up in 644 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: England and spend the rest of the the rest of 645 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: their lives there. 646 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 2: Well, it's a bit of a spoiler alert here, but yes, 647 00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 2: they spent a lot of time in England. And then 648 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 2: finally the British government asked Morris O'Connell to go back 649 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 2: to Sydney to deputize for the governor there, who had 650 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 2: been quite ill. So finally Mary finds herself on a 651 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 2: ship back to Sydney doing that huge long voyage again 652 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 2: and ends up back in Sydney, and then the governor 653 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 2: at the time is really not very well. So at 654 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 2: some point he is George Gibbs, and he says he's 655 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 2: got to go back to London for treatment. So he 656 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 2: and his wife are making arrangements to leave, but the 657 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 2: new governor it's going to take a while for the 658 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 2: new governor to arrive, so they asked Moris O'Connell to 659 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 2: become the governor for the period between the two official governors. 660 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 2: So suddenly, eventually Mary is the governor's consult yet again 661 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 2: in government house. An incredible kind of circle of life 662 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: is quite astonishing really. 663 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: And her final days there or back in England. 664 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 2: No, when the new governor arrived, they made arrangements to 665 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 2: go back to England, and on the day that they 666 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 2: were leaving to go to England, Morris, who was a 667 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 2: bit older than her, was quite substantially older than her, 668 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 2: died absolutely all so they put off the voyage. They 669 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 2: had a huge funeral in Sydney and it was the 670 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 2: biggest funeral anybody had ever seen. And then finally Mary 671 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 2: left and went back to London and then went and 672 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 2: lived the rest of her days in Paris, you know, 673 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,240 Speaker 2: back with her adored fashions really and obviously her children 674 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 2: would visit her from time to time, and her children 675 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 2: became involved in politics. Some of them went back to 676 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: Sydney and one of them became an MP in Queensland. 677 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 2: Anna Bli, the former Queensland Premier, is a direct descendant 678 00:37:54,920 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 2: of Bly. Mary's sister Elizabeth married a cousin and then 679 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 2: through the generations and a Bly was the child of 680 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 2: that union eventually, and so yes, so there's a big 681 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 2: family and they all had positions of authority in lots 682 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 2: of ways. And Mary would have lived out her last 683 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 2: days quite happily, really knowing that her family were all well, 684 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 2: they were all thriving, and although she'd had, you know, 685 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 2: she'd live through two husbands dying, she'd known great joy 686 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 2: and also great sadness. 687 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: Now, I remember studying the rum Rebellion back in I 688 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 1: think even in primary school. But I don't think I 689 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: ever heard the story of Mary Bly. Why do you 690 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,959 Speaker 1: think her story has largely been untold up to now. 691 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 2: I think it's true of nearly all the colonial women. Really, 692 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 2: we hear about the men because you know, they were 693 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 2: in positions of power, they were the governors, and men 694 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 2: write the history books, the histories written by the victors, 695 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,919 Speaker 2: as they say, and I think people forget the role 696 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 2: that women may have played. I mean, behind each of 697 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 2: those powerful men was off an equally powerful woman, but 698 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 2: she couldn't kind of display her power openly because that 699 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 2: wasn't done. But those women were incredibly resolute, I mean, 700 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,919 Speaker 2: to actually even survive in those kind of circumstances. I mean, 701 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 2: the colony was a really uncomfortable place. I mean it 702 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 2: was a place of drought, of floods of play of 703 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 2: TB just running rife and childbirth was really difficult. But 704 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,720 Speaker 2: the women still were really quite solid. They really supported 705 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 2: their husbands. They often had better ideas than their husbands, 706 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,919 Speaker 2: but their husbands would take credit for that. We've seen 707 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 2: that time and time again as well. And we know 708 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 2: that Mary played a strong role in the negotiations between 709 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 2: Lie and his enemies, and she tried to smooth the 710 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 2: role constantly. Really, but I think people just didn't realize 711 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 2: that those women had such a big role. They thought 712 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 2: they were just confined to the home. They were writing 713 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 2: letters back to Britain, they were looking after their baby, 714 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,240 Speaker 2: and of course they did that, but they did many 715 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 2: many other things besides. They really propped up up their 716 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 2: men behind the scenes. They politicked, They you know, had 717 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 2: their ideas stolen. They worked to make the colony a 718 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 2: much better place and the kind of place it is now. Now. 719 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: Your book is a historical novel. How closely does it 720 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 1: match Mary's real life? And how much of you had 721 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 1: to fill the gaps? 722 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,959 Speaker 2: Well, all the events in the book that like are real, 723 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 2: you know, the pantaloons, the rum, rebellion, the parasol, you know, 724 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 2: everything is real. I think it's just trying to put 725 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 2: feelings behind the characters, to try and make them, to 726 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,439 Speaker 2: bring them to life really, so we can actually see 727 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,919 Speaker 2: them as personalities and we can feel empathy for them. 728 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 2: That's the fiction side of it, really. And I just 729 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 2: love historical fiction because I love learning about history, because 730 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 2: I mean, it's often so colorful, particularly Australia's history. It's astonishing, 731 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 2: really amazing characters, incredible things, things that happened, but we 732 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 2: only kind of hear We don't I hear much more 733 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 2: about British history, really, we don't hear enough about Australian history. 734 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 2: So I think when you fictionalize it, you kind of 735 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 2: you're able to add a bit of color to it 736 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 2: really in lots of ways, so you entertain people at 737 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 2: the same time you learn something. And I just I 738 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 2: love reading historical fictions, so I just thought, you know, 739 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 2: I would try my hand at writing historical fiction. And 740 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 2: I did a book a couple of years ago about 741 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 2: Elizabeth mcquarie and Elizabeth MacArthur called Elizabeth and Elizabeth, and 742 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 2: I enjoyed the process so much. And I first met 743 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 2: Mary Bli in that book, and I kind of thought, 744 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 2: I really want to know her more more. She seems 745 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 2: a remarkable woman, and I'd really like to spend some 746 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 2: time with her because you kind of, you know, you 747 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 2: do spend time with these characters and they do kind 748 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 2: of come to life without wanting to sound over dramatic, 749 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 2: and you start falling in love with them and really 750 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 2: feeling for them and kind of living their lives with 751 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,919 Speaker 2: them in lots of ways. And I love being able 752 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 2: to put that on the page, to kind of put 753 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 2: the heart on the page in lots of ways. 754 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: Well, that has been thoroughly entertaining. And your book of 755 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 1: that Bly Girl is available right now, isn't it. 756 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 2: That's right? Yep, all good bookshops and bad bookshops and online. 757 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 1: Yes, perfect. 758 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 2: Thanks Sue, thanks for your time, Thank you very much. 759 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. This has been in Black and White, 760 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: a podcast about some of Australia's forgotten characters, written and 761 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: hosted by me Jen Kelly, edited by Nina Young, and 762 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: produced by John ti Burton. You can find all the 763 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,839 Speaker 1: stories and photos associated with their episodes at haroldsun dot 764 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:44,280 Speaker 1: com dot au slash ibaw. If you've enjoyed this podcast, 765 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: we'd love you to leave a five star rating on 766 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:51,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Even better, leave a review any comments or questions, 767 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: please email me at in Black and White at haroldsun 768 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 1: dot com dot au. Any clarifications or updates will appear 769 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 1: in the show notes for each and to get notified 770 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,839 Speaker 1: when each new episode comes out, make sure you subscribe 771 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: to the podcast feed.